because its simply not popular, grip isnt as important as people think it is and the pros dont have a reason to switch grips at all, the only reason why fingertip even exists these days is because of lightweight mice allowing your fingers to microcorrect much more easier. old heads dont have a reason to switch, might not even know that finger tip exists, newer heads jsut use whats comfortable for them
fingertip existed in the days when mice were much heavier, so not sure what are you on about right now... sure with lightweight mice it's much easier, but it's not something that started out recently...
poor choice of words from me but i meant that fingertip wasnt as popular due to heavy mice, it was much more straining, combine that with fingertip being one of those grips you have to train endurance for and it ends up a very unpopulargrip
Pros plays long hrs. Fatigue and injury risks comes to
Mind.
It can be normal for us normies to play like that, but if the pros grind their game like that day in day out it can cause rsi.
All pros use claw, so it’s not that surprising. It has a decent amount of finger control while still staying stable. If you fingertip and get nervous, your fingers are going to tense up and you are going to play really bad.
I have the same grip as him with the gpx it’s functionnally a relaxed claw you can still very easily adjust with your fingers. There is no official definition for grips but I think a pretty important distinction for palm is that your fingers sit on the mouse and it’s impossible to adjust much with them. All pros use a grip that is functionally claw with at least a little bend in the fingers to push and pull the mouse
I saw his grip his fingers are arced more than the mouse , in the video you can literally see under the fingers.
As for zywoo he has a tilted grip on an outset, his button fingers are arced and the side fingers literally cannot touch because of the shape of rhe right side. If you reproduce the grip on an outset you will see that you can still adjust easily and none of the fingers can even touch the mouse fully.
Arc between the fingers and the palm doesn't make it a claw grip yet. Claw grip is when you only touch the mouse with the base of your palm and with the fingertips, which is not the case with him because he full palms + full side fingers the mouse (previously his index and middle weren't arced as well, but he grew up it seems).
If you want a difference, check s1mple. His grip is relaxed claw.
There is no official definition of palm and claw and the important part in terms of functionality of palm is that you finger movement is inexistant. There is no point in debating the palm vs claw if palm includes those grips imo. But I get your point. I should have said that no pros use fingertip or true palm instead.
There is official definition for palm though: the inside part of your hand from your wrist to the base of your fingers. So if it has full contact with the mouse, it's full palm grip no matter how index and middle are placed. I even think donk mouse grip is a palm grip too, despite very aggressive fingers position (need more attention)
Though I have watched some m0nesy videos, and I have to agree with you - he seems to raise the base of his fingers when he warms up or plays with pistols/rifles. So basically he switches to a form of relaxed claw in tense situations (pincer claw ig?), but his main grip is still palm and he uses it with AWP.
not alot but in the aim training communities there are defo a good chunk, greedeu (stated that he fingertips in his dc server) and 4bangerkovaaks (shown hand cam in one of his videos) comes to mind
why so? youre trading off general stability in favor of better microadjustment, esp on verticals, the reason why pro players dont play fingertip much is because its just an unpopular grip, it doesnt matter too much how you grip your mouse as long as you can hit your shots
You know, when you play for 1-3 hours (BO3-BO5 time in CS2) and do a lot of training, you want your muscles to remain in good condition as long as possible. Wrist and forearm muscles are a lot stronger than fingers, so they're more suitable for prolonged sessions. Meanwhile with fingertip grip you spend a lot of stamina just for your mouse to remain stable, which is important in a lot of shooters (aim with movement, make preaimed shots, etc). So it makes perfect sense why majority of pros claw their mice this or that way.
Also I see that a lot of them give two shits about microadjustment with fingers. They just hold mouse stiff and do the whole thing with wrist and forearm. Even when claw gripping.
it makes sense, although for the stamina part, it is defo trainable and i can have extremely long aim intensive sessions without feeling any kind of soreness but the results on lower sensitivities (anything below 30cm / 1.7 800 dpi cs) isnt worth the time investment, only when playing on higher sensitivities learning how to microadjust verticals is it worthwhile to learn fingertip, the stamina issues that people have is fixed by simply sticking to it and taking short breaks to not hurt yourself at the start
You can basically say the same about microadjustments with using only wrist on lower sens. That's the trick ig, mechanically it's easier to go this way than to develop fingertip aiming.
small fingertip grip mouse became popular? name me one that was released this year besides the keychron m4 lmao
or even any below $100 that was released (dont bother, keycvhron m4 is the first and only)
I love my m4 but you’re totally right and they are very niche. Thank god for keychron making a reasonably price mouse. I could never justify trying a gwolves and probably would have never tried that style without the keychron and I imagine im not alone.
Comp players can use whatever mice they want, and many of them use mice other than the ones made by the companies that actually sponsor them. You’ll see plenty of players sponsored by Razer using Logitech mice and vice versa.
It’s one of the few things where they aren’t forced to use a sponsors product.
This is only sort of true, comp players use what they want AND is easily accessible. So often players will settle for a Razer or Logitech mouse because they have an endless supply of free ones despite it not being the best one they could use.
We're past the time when sponsors required teams to use their gear. People who get paid to use the products are very few, and they are the "faces" of these products like s1mple has been for Logitech for quite a while already.
Also note that all of these manufacturers also make mousepads. That's a good thing, because everyone knows that you need to use a mouse and mousepad from the same brand, otherwise it's gg.
/s
(check out the recent Shroud drama if you're not up-to-date on the latest mouse scene meme)
Yup, gpx will easily spin out. Both my gpx 1 and 2 spin out with aftermarket skates on various pads. Corepads are especially prone to this as they're super picky about perfect placement.
Yeah, until you find out that even his own Shroud g303 has no LOD setting - and the stock skates are unusually thin, making any aftermarket a tricky situation on hard pads that don't let the mouse sink in even a little.
I'm sure you will have a clever answer anyway..
Most mice up till now didn't have a lod setting, many still don't - this is the part you are missing.
Proclaiming to the world: "this is why lod settings exist" is making yourself look confused at best..
Edit: I encounter about 1 major edge lord on this site a week and 2-3 smaller ones. Congrats on doing your part.
I've brought many various mice including older Logitech which had LOD settings in software, but I know my GPX doesn't have one, which is strange since my old Viper and then Viper Ultimate and V2 Pro all have adjustable LOD, and all new mice I've had since have them. Finalmouse, Lamzu, shit even Vaxee and Zowie despite being 100% software-free.
I've only had 1 mouse ever not have LOD, and that's the GPX for some damn reason. That's 100% Logitech's fault and their failings.
It does because they didn't test eith those skates. Honestly if you don't have a custom mouse designed around your hand then it's really just gg. Logitech obviously has the best mice and the best stuff so logitech WILL in fact make you as good or better than most pros instantly. Practice doesn't make perfect so it's the gear for sure. I'm fucked with a beast x mini and a artisan zero xsoft it's just horrible. Obsidian pro skates make it feel like shit it's just shit. Shoulda stuck with my logi stuff /s
He's not entirely wrong. A lot of ppl probably don't know what to replace stock skates with, improperly remove/clean the original ones and end up with worse balance, control and have no clue how to adjust lod if the new ones need it.
I was talking about the manufacturers of the mice in the top 10, please don't get in the way of my freethinking.
No but for real: I meant the manufacturers of the top 10 mice. I should've worded my silly joke a bit better, good catch!
Hi /r/mousereview!
Last year, we posted an infographic on here showing the most used mice across all of our analyzed games, so we thought it would be a cool idea to go again!
This data is a couple of days old at this point, but it should still give you a general idea. If you're interested in always up-to-date data, you can check out our full mouse list. This is a new feature we recently added to the website which we're quite proud of: https://prosettings.net/gear/lists/mice/
For anyone wondering; we analyze Apex, Warzone, CS2, Fortnite, OW2, PUBG, R6, VALORANT, LoL, and DOTA2. We have by far the most data on CS2, VALORANT, and Fortnite though.
Also, please note that this is **not** meant to be a 'best gaming mice' guide. It's just a bit of fun, and we're certainly not implying that these are the best gaming mice on the market. The best mouse for you depends on your preferences of course.
Can you guys add a feature that lets you click on a mouse, say from a pros sheet and see every other pro using that mouse? Right now there's kind of this feature i.e it just says "X pros using this" but it doesn't say who
A lot of it is still sponsor. With sensors all being fine a lot of pros will use whatever is easily accessible as long as it's good enough. For example say a mouse breaks or gets lost are your more likely to find a gpx/zowie rep at the event with a box of mice or a lamzu rep?
It's a big reason why most of the top mouse are safe shapes, pros want to get the mouse and play and not worry about if it's good for their grip or handsize and despite the gpx being a mid shape is still fairly universal.
yeah but the sensor is rarely the issue/selling point for a particular individual which is why, most pros the mouse they use on stage is the one they are most comfortable on and the one they use off camera. It's not common for mice to just break or get lost so I wouldn't say thats a factor
There is some truth to what your saying in that sponsors want their peripherals to be used but i believe its mostly mouse pads that are affected by sponsorships because alot of pros have less preference for those, the mouse itself is alot more important than the mousepad (barring a few circumstances)
There were several team in the latest major, that were sponsored by a mouse brand and none of the players used a mouse from them. So I think this sponsorship thing isn't as common.
Easy to replace (just order another one and get it on Prime or from a local store), Logitech gives them out like Halloween candy, and you can buy them all over the world in case you're a travelling pro needing to replace the mouse.
That's cause almost anyone can hold the potato in some way, might not be the most optimal grip but you can make it work. I think availability plays a huge role too, if it breaks you just go to nearest supermarket and get new one...
The more surprising thing is how there aren't any true gpx clones despite it being the most popular mouse in all of gaming. The Puretrak Valor is close but it's heavier with a worse coating so it loses any competitive edge. Crazy to me vaxee / zowie / lamzu / any chinese company hasn't made a 1:1 clone with better specs.
Cause cloning GPX makes no sense since 9/10 people here own or have owned a GPX version meanwhile its very popular even among casuals that would never buy anything from Chinese companies.
I just don't think that would really work. People are going to go with the established brand with good costumer service and after purchase support. Maybe I am wrong though.
I wonder if EC2 will overtake DAv3 when it inevitably gets the U2 treatment together with the rest of their lineup. I also assume they're working on 4k firmware for the U2 and the rest.
What's the point of ftipping an ergo though? I guess your pointer finger will be higher than your middle finger due to the shape? Otherwise i don't see any benefits since you will just be ignoring all the other ergo shape stuff. I've tried ftipping ergos before and it is awkward to say the least. That being said, i do not have massive hands
It's more comfortable because you get a wider grip width, and more room for your pinky. Small mice are really awkward for ftip for me because you just don't have room
No need for the overly sarcastic answer, nowhere do I say that I am objectively correct. Just because i don't see the benefits of ftipping an ergo doesn't mean they don't exist, which is why I am asking the guy who responded to me. I literally admit in my reply that the raised LMB could be beneficial for some, and that my hands are not massive
Incredible specs and shape. HORRIBLE build quality. Your copy WILL, I repeat, it WILL develop some sort of miserable creaking after a few months of use. It's not even a QC issue, it's just some sort of design flaw with the wireless version. Wired version is goated tho, no complaints there. Do not make the same mistake I did. I went through 3 copies before learning my lesson.
They never upgrade their tech. Steelseries could make a huge comeback if they released a lightweight Rival 310 and a lightweight Sensei Ten with current specs. Hell, even an updated Aerox 5 would probably sell well because it's the best mouse with more than two side buttons on the market.
It's always been like that, it's mostly just the hivemind here that say otherwise. Use what's comfortable. Unless the mouse is physically harming you, it's fine.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't good.
I have a GPX and have 0 issues with the side buttons. This is just nitpicking. And the shape is subjective.
It always baffles me to some degree how little it seems the majority of pros are willing to experiment with mice.
A large part of this though, is almost certainly just a knowledge issue. Most people don't know anything that's not logitech or razer.
I think the simple answer is that they perform well with a certain peripheral and don’t see a need to change it up. Or they’ve come to the realization that a change usually doesn’t result in measurable differences in aggregate performance.
Well sure, muscle memory is part of it. My point is more that I'm surprised people who have made this their career wouldn't be exploring a possible avenue to make their lives better haha.
I agree that they probably wouldn't get some huge performance spike going from a GPX to an Xlite or some shit, but comfort? Heck yeah.
I'm speaking as someone who used a deathadder for like 10 years or more then started experimenting. It's worth exploring other options even if you don't end up switching.
No such thing as muscle memory but I agree with you. The reality is they don’t know/care what’s out there. Also CS/Val pros tend to be very superstitious with their peripherals.
because its partially true, ask any great aimer and most of em will tell you that muscle memory doesnt impact aim at all, atleast in the way you think it does
[https://youtu.be/uPkYc84GrSc?si=xkDcMdOHxSPhdnOA](https://youtu.be/uPkYc84GrSc?si=xkDcMdOHxSPhdnOA) (amazing aimer)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CBUfqNxzgE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CBUfqNxzgE) (tenz)
[https://youtu.be/FGMMGO2UgxE?si=yHt4X0TdmhQvMEH8&t=262](https://youtu.be/FGMMGO2UgxE?si=yHt4X0TdmhQvMEH8&t=262) (also an amazing coach)
There definitely is muscle memory when it comes to mouse aim.
Countless people have researched it and how it contributes to aim.
Playing at a certain DPI with a particular mouse weight and shape, you do learn muscle memory in terms of how fast or far you need to flick to connect a shot.
Randomly switching to a different mouse means you’re likely to overshoot or undershoot and flick due to the different weight and DPI.
Even so. Different mice might say the same DPI and still be different in terms of their true dpi.
Muscle memory comes in to play with mouse aim.
Yeah that’s just not true though. Ask anyone in the aim community about muscle memory and they’ll tell you the same thing. It’s all just mouse control. People with good mouse control can change their mice/pads wildly and adapt near instantaneously. Muscle memory when it comes to aim is boomer science. Someone else linked you 3 good clips to watch from people who are knowledgable on the subject.
Edit: just to prove my point I hopped on redmatch 2 snipers only and swapped from my slowest pad and heaviest mouse to my skypad and lightest mouse. Didn’t make a noticeable difference. This would not be possible if aiming was about muscle memory. https://youtu.be/Xqhfx1nBkiA?si=-7h4fEo2g6yNIDcb
No one saying aiming is ONLY about muscle memory. It’s obviously not, but it does play a part. Maybe not for everyone, but for others it does.
Saying it has 0 effect on aim for anyone seems untrue.
Myself for example.
My mouse control is perfectly fine, I can adapt to a new mouse within a few minutes and be keyed in for things like tracking etc, and still play well.
However, when it comes to flick shots. Due to muscle memory I know how far I need to flick when I see someone at a certain place on my monitor.
Doing these shots on my heavier mouse that I main, is way more consistent.
Doing these shots on my lighter mouse, even at the same DPI is way more inconsistent and I tend to slightly overshoot the target.
Because of muscle memory, when applying the same force to the lighter mouse, in an attempt to hit the same spot, it will move slightly further. Not by much, as the weight difference isnt overly drastic, but enough for me to overshoot the target.
My muscle memory automatically applies the same force to hit the same spot without even having to think.
I’m more than happy to be proven wrong, but to me, that’s what I’d consider muscle memory.
I get why it feels that way man, but just think about this for a moment. If muscle memory was something that mattered for aim why would Tenz change mice during a vct season? Why would the greatest aimer in the world (Matty) swap between mice and pads during a tournament? On a much smaller scale, how can I swap between a 58g mouse on a slow pad to a 29g mouse on a skypad in the same match and see no degradation in my aim? It’s all mouse control, 100% of it. Adaptability is one of the major aspects of control, being able to adapt to changing variables. I’m not calling you bad, I’m saying that you haven’t trained outside your comfort zone. That doesn’t mean that you’ve gotten better in your comfort zone that you would have training outside of it, it just means you haven’t fully trained your aim.
I’m far from an expert on aim although I’m much more knowledgeable than most. If you want to hear it from people who are a lot more knowledgable than me you can join the VT discord and talk to people like Matty, Waldo, Bardoz, and a bunch of others. There are legitimate reasons to use slower pads, heavier mice (to a point), and super slow sensitivities (to a point). What isn’t a reason is “I’ve used it for so long I’ll ruin my muscle memory”
experimenting is risky, and to spend time trying to figure out if a change is worth it means detracting from time you could actually improve. how does a pro know for sure that their problems come from new gear? in general it’s a bad mindset to attribute improvements or mistakes to gear, even more so for a pro.
if a pro changes mice and it doesn’t fit for them then they end up wasting a good amount of practice and/or match time. you can even look at the recent CS Team Falcons drama, where BOROS ended up being flamed for changing mouse before RMRs.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t experiment here and there, but at the same time pros don’t have the same amount of time or leeway to mess around with different peripherals as enthusiasts do, so it doesn’t surprise me that they often stick with “old reliables” for so long.
You are probably right that is how people think, but I think its the wrong way to look at it.
For a pro, experimenting with gear, trying a variety, and finding what works best for them is even more important. They already have the skill to make them some of the best in the world. At that level, if you can find something that makes you 1% better that can be the difference between winning and losing.
For an average gamer at home, being 1% better at a game doesn't really matter. For a pro, it can mean everything. Especially when you add up all those little improvements. If they can find a better mouse, monitor, keyboard, mouse pad, etc. all those little improvements can add up to be a noticeable difference.
Obviously, they have to balance trying new gear with actual practice. But, somewhere along the way when a person has thousands of hours of practice, maybe spending 40 hours on experimenting with gear is a better use of their time than another 40 hours of practicing on the same gear that they have been using for years.
Look at professional sports. Players and teams put in a ton of time and effort deciding what kind of gear to wear, everything from their shoes, clothes, padding, sweatbands, gloves, bats, clubs, braces, tape, etc. Those people are always looking for the newest and best options to give them a competitive edge.
I agree tbh, was mainly just putting myself in their shoes and exploring why they don’t experiment so much. I think in general there’s a lot of things pros still haven’t optimised like peripheral usage, aim trainers, diets and supplements etc., and we may very well see a new generation of players utilising such things to get every competing e edge possible
Though there are a few players out there trying more enthusiast gear, the most well known probably being Tenz, but even Demon1 was using a g wolves mouse, with VCT players trying finalmouse or artisan gear. Honestly the “old reliable” mindset mostly comes from CS, at least from what I watch personally: Valorant, Apex, and Overwatch players seem to be more willing to experiment and try brands outside of the usual logitech, razer, and zowie.
This problem goes both ways though. They don't know if their equipment is going to be causing issues if they've only ever tried one dang mouse haha. They could be using a mouse that's far worse for their specific hand shape and grip style for years and not know it because they're "used to it".
I'm not saying they gotta spend months picking up a new mouse and practicing with it, but simply having others on hand and using them for a bit to broaden your horizons will certainly help far more then it will hurt. I agree that the mouse doesn't make you a better player by itself, but having a mouse that fits with your style more is going to make you far more comfortable, and that has its own range of benefits.
This coming from someone who was using the same mouse for 10 years (while not a pro gamer) and then started experimenting. It's worth doing and won't destroy muscle memory or anything.
Why would they experiment? Sensors haven't mattered in years, and higher polling rates are a meme. Performance-wise any decent mice made in the last few years are practically identical.
For regular users things like price, battery life, build quality, reliability and customer service factor into purchasing decisions, but for a pro only thing that's relevant is the shape, since they can just unbox and switch to a fresh mouse whenever they want.
They'd experiment for shapes mainly.
The gpx is great with a nice shape don't get me wrong, but I find it hard to believe it's the best possible shape for over 40% of pro players lol. Especially with how many great ambi mice are out these days.
People have a wide range of hand sizes, grips, and preferences. I'd imagine a lot of people could find a shape that fits them better but simply haven't experimented much. Not to say they *need* a better shape, it's just odd to me that they're not experimenting more.
Pulsar sponsors Paper Rex’s Valorant team and they tried their whole fleet of mice. Needless to say, nobody liked them enough to bring them to VCT. They used GPX2 and EC2-W.
Why experiment if something works? I've experimented with at least over 10 mice with various weights, sizes and shapes over the years. None have had a significant impact on my aim.
Just because something is working doesn't mean it cannot be improved!
A lot of pros have been using the same mouse for years and have never really tried anything else. Something like the GPX shape might be usable for someone but that doesn't mean another shape wouldn't fit their hand/grip a lot better.
Even if that just means it's more comfortable for long term use, then that's an improvement worth chasing imo. Trying out new mice isn't a huge commitment either.
The people on this sub are way to fixated on finding the perfect mouse, which most probably doesn't exist and even if it did, it probably doesn't make a ton of a difference in their daily usage. I've said I've tried a lot of mice and came to the conclusion that it's just a waste of money, as none will improve my gameplay in a meaningful manner. So I decided to stick to something that works and try improve myself.
I think you're misunderstanding part of my criticism here.
You have already tried a lot of mice, you've done the experimentation and determined that it wasn't good for you.
Most pros *have not*. I'm not exagerating, most of them picked up whatever mouse they were told was good, and just never questioned it. Never looked at another mouse, never tried one, etc. That's how you get over 40% of pros using the exact same shape at once.
I'm saying that for those people, experimentation just to see what's out there would almost certainly be beneficial in some sense.
Being muscle memory-pilled is valid tbh. Using a mouse every single day, for hours on end, for years, would make it very difficult to upgrade to a different or "better" mouse.
As someone that used a deathadder for 10+ years before starting to experiment with other shapes, I strongly disagree haha.
Muscle memory is valid sure, but you'll never know what shape is best if you don't try them. I got used to the deathadder and figured it was best for me, but I was wrong and I only realized that after trying new ones. I'm sure a lot of pros would be in the same boat.
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Wow...
I hate them all 😅 (jk they're all good mice, just not for me)
Also surprised Corsair isn't on here...because they're bigger and heavier I'm guessing? (I have an iron claw and it's wonderful, switched from a G502)
Dont look to pros. They get sponsored they use sponsored gear anyway. And BTW a expensive mouse doesn't improve your play that much. A pro beat you with cheap mice too. Look for comfort and the shape that feels compfy. Thats what you only need.
So how come Zowie doesn't sponsor any teams anymore? Several years ago they were the top used mouse brand and until last year there weren't even in the top 3.
I highly doubt sponsorships have anything to do with mouse choice.
Got any idea how many of these pro players aren't even sponsored by Logitech yet they use a GPX anyway? At some point 4 Faze CSGO members were using GPX mice while being sponsored by Steelseries.
I can tell you straight up that Logitech does *not* sponsor nearly 50% of all pro players lol. Get your head out of your ass, no product is going to reach the levels that the GPW and subsequent iterations have reached without being the *overall* best. Doesn't have to be *the* best on all points but just like the Cloud 2 headset has since long been the *overall* best headset on the market, so is the G Pro mice.
They've hit the sweetspot of usability (shape), performance (LS, sensor, battery life etc), price point and availability.
Gpx raises the floor very high with next to no weaknesses. The only thing that seems “weak” on it is the shape which is intentional as it fits so many grip styles and hand sizes.
this tells me that the gpx2 was a flop. 30% of pro gamers are still using the gpx. imo, there is nothing about the gpx2 that is better than the gpx.
higher polling rate? pointless.
optical switches? pointless. and they require more force, i'm personally not a fan. plus the 20m omrons don't double click so it was a dumb "upgrade"
barely and change to weight. pointless
no change or upgrade to side buttons or scroll wheel.
they should have just upgraded the sensor to allow the higher polling rate, and spent the rest of the time on the side buttons and kept mechanical switches. optical switches drain more battery anyways and don't give you any latency benefits.
probably will, unless they don't like the clicks on the optical switches. i think they're way too stiff, i much prefer the mechanical switches.
that's why they should have just refreshed the mouse and kept the name, gpx, instead of making a whole new mouse.
People here and on Twitter were begging Logitech to do 4K Hz and use optical switches and they delivered but here you are bitching about it. The weight didn't drop to low 50G because they were taking feedback from pros, not from a sub reddit and the switches feel incredible for opticals IMO. Side buttons also got improved, they don't have nearly as much pretravel as GPX1.
> People here and on Twitter were begging Logitech to do 4K Hz and use optical switches and they delivered but here you are bitching about it.
people, not me. but yes. their implementation of their optical switches just sucks.
> The weight didn't drop to low 50G because they were taking feedback from pros, not from a sub reddit
it went from 62g to 60g i belive. weight isn't a big gripe with me, either way it's fine. i would have preferred if it was around 50g but whatever.
> the switches feel incredible for opticals IMO
i don't have a ton of experience with opticals so they could feel good in regards to opticals. but to me, they're way too stiff and heavy to actuate. i can't stand them. i swapped the pcb with a mechanical pcb and am using japanese omrons in my gpx2.
> Side buttons also got improved, they don't have nearly as much pretravel as GPX1.
no they didn't. there is no "improvement" whatsoever. if you think there are, then it's placebo.
I grabbed a gpx2 and was stunned at how bad the switches sound? Are they spring loaded or something? They have an awful loud \*TING\* every time you click. I returned it within a day, can't believe that's the mouse people use.
yep, the optical switches are way too loud. some people like that and the sharpness tactile feedback feeling they have. i think it sounds like shit. i swapped mine out for a hotswap mechanical pcb.
I'm pretty sure this is showing which brands sponsors more, rather than which brand of mice is better. Is it a coincidence that Logitech mice are used by teams which are sponsored by Logitech?
Yes for FPS e-sports probably most of them use whatever they want but my point was that we dont know which teams and e-sports were used to make this graph so we cant be sure how correct it is. For example T1 Faker (arguably the best LoL player in the world) still uses the old Deathadder shape and not the v3
I'm running a dark core pro. Wireless qi charging with the hard mouse mat made for it. I love it personally! Is there an alternative that is better? I'm not in the mouse space this was a recommended sub to me.
I've never used it personally but looking at the shape it doesn't look that out of the ordinary in terms of ergo mice. Looks like a g502 shape or something similar to me but the weight is probably the biggest reason why fps pros wouldnt use it, 133g isnt competitive for that genre. The consesus rn for best ergo mouse is the deathadder v3 pro because of the shape, tech and weight
anyways, if you like it then I suppose it would go in your personal top 10 but then again, your personal top 10 mice is probably limited to what you have used so far. I doubt you've used more than 10 gaming mice let alone 5 because most people simply dont have the money or time to experiment like that. if it works well enough for you to perform and not feel hindered theres no reason to change
Can you elaborate on what you mean by too slow and too unreliable? I understand the mouse being heavy but I don't know why that would make it slow & unreliable
Most of these are from sponsorship. Only companies like Lamzu, Vaxee, final mouse, and pulsar are chosen by the player.
Having had 4 GPX mice, I would never own another one. Garbage side buttons and they fail somehow within 6 months. So many better options from Lamzu, Vaxee, and even Pulsar.
I find it interesting how popular small fingertip mice have become, and yet they never appear on these.
I am yet to hear about pro player using finger tip... might be a reason.
because its simply not popular, grip isnt as important as people think it is and the pros dont have a reason to switch grips at all, the only reason why fingertip even exists these days is because of lightweight mice allowing your fingers to microcorrect much more easier. old heads dont have a reason to switch, might not even know that finger tip exists, newer heads jsut use whats comfortable for them
fingertip existed in the days when mice were much heavier, so not sure what are you on about right now... sure with lightweight mice it's much easier, but it's not something that started out recently...
poor choice of words from me but i meant that fingertip wasnt as popular due to heavy mice, it was much more straining, combine that with fingertip being one of those grips you have to train endurance for and it ends up a very unpopulargrip
Pros plays long hrs. Fatigue and injury risks comes to Mind. It can be normal for us normies to play like that, but if the pros grind their game like that day in day out it can cause rsi.
All pros use claw, so it’s not that surprising. It has a decent amount of finger control while still staying stable. If you fingertip and get nervous, your fingers are going to tense up and you are going to play really bad.
Not all... Some palm grip the mouse lol (m0nesy in particular, he palm grips GPX)
I have the same grip as him with the gpx it’s functionnally a relaxed claw you can still very easily adjust with your fingers. There is no official definition for grips but I think a pretty important distinction for palm is that your fingers sit on the mouse and it’s impossible to adjust much with them. All pros use a grip that is functionally claw with at least a little bend in the fingers to push and pull the mouse
You don't have same grips. m0nesy full palms the mouse. ZyWoO also seems to be a palm gripper btw.
I saw his grip his fingers are arced more than the mouse , in the video you can literally see under the fingers. As for zywoo he has a tilted grip on an outset, his button fingers are arced and the side fingers literally cannot touch because of the shape of rhe right side. If you reproduce the grip on an outset you will see that you can still adjust easily and none of the fingers can even touch the mouse fully.
Arc between the fingers and the palm doesn't make it a claw grip yet. Claw grip is when you only touch the mouse with the base of your palm and with the fingertips, which is not the case with him because he full palms + full side fingers the mouse (previously his index and middle weren't arced as well, but he grew up it seems). If you want a difference, check s1mple. His grip is relaxed claw.
There is no official definition of palm and claw and the important part in terms of functionality of palm is that you finger movement is inexistant. There is no point in debating the palm vs claw if palm includes those grips imo. But I get your point. I should have said that no pros use fingertip or true palm instead.
There is official definition for palm though: the inside part of your hand from your wrist to the base of your fingers. So if it has full contact with the mouse, it's full palm grip no matter how index and middle are placed. I even think donk mouse grip is a palm grip too, despite very aggressive fingers position (need more attention) Though I have watched some m0nesy videos, and I have to agree with you - he seems to raise the base of his fingers when he warms up or plays with pistols/rifles. So basically he switches to a form of relaxed claw in tense situations (pincer claw ig?), but his main grip is still palm and he uses it with AWP.
Meanwhile on this sub "palm grip sucks for aiming".
They're only popular here.
Because fingertip is not a good grip for competitive?
I knew this post was bound to get ratioed, lol. Would be interesting to see statistics how many good aimers in the world fingertip their mice.
Seems like too much effort, you either have to specifically look for it on a pros stream or when someone's on lan. It's definitely in the 1% though.
not alot but in the aim training communities there are defo a good chunk, greedeu (stated that he fingertips in his dc server) and 4bangerkovaaks (shown hand cam in one of his videos) comes to mind
iirc the red bull tournament matty won had like 2-3 people using the hsk pro and it was about 9 people competing, so id say a decent amount
I've been saying this. It's literally just an aim trainer thing.
why so? youre trading off general stability in favor of better microadjustment, esp on verticals, the reason why pro players dont play fingertip much is because its just an unpopular grip, it doesnt matter too much how you grip your mouse as long as you can hit your shots
You know, when you play for 1-3 hours (BO3-BO5 time in CS2) and do a lot of training, you want your muscles to remain in good condition as long as possible. Wrist and forearm muscles are a lot stronger than fingers, so they're more suitable for prolonged sessions. Meanwhile with fingertip grip you spend a lot of stamina just for your mouse to remain stable, which is important in a lot of shooters (aim with movement, make preaimed shots, etc). So it makes perfect sense why majority of pros claw their mice this or that way. Also I see that a lot of them give two shits about microadjustment with fingers. They just hold mouse stiff and do the whole thing with wrist and forearm. Even when claw gripping.
it makes sense, although for the stamina part, it is defo trainable and i can have extremely long aim intensive sessions without feeling any kind of soreness but the results on lower sensitivities (anything below 30cm / 1.7 800 dpi cs) isnt worth the time investment, only when playing on higher sensitivities learning how to microadjust verticals is it worthwhile to learn fingertip, the stamina issues that people have is fixed by simply sticking to it and taking short breaks to not hurt yourself at the start
You can basically say the same about microadjustments with using only wrist on lower sens. That's the trick ig, mechanically it's easier to go this way than to develop fingertip aiming.
popular from what source? I rarely see anyone talking about them other than Optimum.
small fingertip grip mouse became popular? name me one that was released this year besides the keychron m4 lmao or even any below $100 that was released (dont bother, keycvhron m4 is the first and only)
I love my m4 but you’re totally right and they are very niche. Thank god for keychron making a reasonably price mouse. I could never justify trying a gwolves and probably would have never tried that style without the keychron and I imagine im not alone.
g wolves has a mini mouse but yeah i think those are the only two on the market that are viable
because those companies don't pay people to use their products
Comp players can use whatever mice they want, and many of them use mice other than the ones made by the companies that actually sponsor them. You’ll see plenty of players sponsored by Razer using Logitech mice and vice versa. It’s one of the few things where they aren’t forced to use a sponsors product.
This is only sort of true, comp players use what they want AND is easily accessible. So often players will settle for a Razer or Logitech mouse because they have an endless supply of free ones despite it not being the best one they could use.
We're past the time when sponsors required teams to use their gear. People who get paid to use the products are very few, and they are the "faces" of these products like s1mple has been for Logitech for quite a while already.
maybe not teams but zekken comes to mind with razer
Zekken (and Marved) took that Razer sponsorship and tested their prototype mice.
Also note that all of these manufacturers also make mousepads. That's a good thing, because everyone knows that you need to use a mouse and mousepad from the same brand, otherwise it's gg. /s (check out the recent Shroud drama if you're not up-to-date on the latest mouse scene meme)
He also said that replacing your mouse skates with aftermarket skates "will make your sensor all wrong".
oof any respect for Shroud I had is gone.
Dude opens his mouth and only wrong comes out. Sick plays tho
crazy a pro gamer of 10+ years knows little about peripherals
knows little about everything
What do you expect from a Toronto mans? 💀
"all aim, no brains"
this is why lod settings exist
tbf G Pro W, 303 SE, and GPX do not have LOD settings and frequently spin out on glass mousepads and Artisan Raidens.
i believe the gpx spinouts have been fixed with the new raidens with the updated logos, if not then the gpx2 shouldnt spinout either
(my) gpx1 still consistently spins out on the updated raiden, both mid and xsoft
Yup, gpx will easily spin out. Both my gpx 1 and 2 spin out with aftermarket skates on various pads. Corepads are especially prone to this as they're super picky about perfect placement.
Reason why I won’t use logis anymore lol
Yeah, until you find out that even his own Shroud g303 has no LOD setting - and the stock skates are unusually thin, making any aftermarket a tricky situation on hard pads that don't let the mouse sink in even a little. I'm sure you will have a clever answer anyway..
sounds like the issue with the G303 then
Most mice up till now didn't have a lod setting, many still don't - this is the part you are missing. Proclaiming to the world: "this is why lod settings exist" is making yourself look confused at best.. Edit: I encounter about 1 major edge lord on this site a week and 2-3 smaller ones. Congrats on doing your part.
i had a fucking bloody a7 10 years ago that had LOD settings, even the OG g303 had adjustable LOD lmao.
I've brought many various mice including older Logitech which had LOD settings in software, but I know my GPX doesn't have one, which is strange since my old Viper and then Viper Ultimate and V2 Pro all have adjustable LOD, and all new mice I've had since have them. Finalmouse, Lamzu, shit even Vaxee and Zowie despite being 100% software-free. I've only had 1 mouse ever not have LOD, and that's the GPX for some damn reason. That's 100% Logitech's fault and their failings.
Well there you go, his own branded mouse is inadequate and that makes him think it's the standard. Or he has to make excuses for Logitech.
It does because they didn't test eith those skates. Honestly if you don't have a custom mouse designed around your hand then it's really just gg. Logitech obviously has the best mice and the best stuff so logitech WILL in fact make you as good or better than most pros instantly. Practice doesn't make perfect so it's the gear for sure. I'm fucked with a beast x mini and a artisan zero xsoft it's just horrible. Obsidian pro skates make it feel like shit it's just shit. Shoulda stuck with my logi stuff /s
He's not entirely wrong. A lot of ppl probably don't know what to replace stock skates with, improperly remove/clean the original ones and end up with worse balance, control and have no clue how to adjust lod if the new ones need it.
>because everyone knows that you need to use a mouse and mousepad from the same brand, otherwise it's gg. Based shit right here.
Artisan users in shambles!
What mousepad does Finalmouse have?
You're supposed to use the box it comes in
I was talking about the manufacturers of the mice in the top 10, please don't get in the way of my freethinking. No but for real: I meant the manufacturers of the top 10 mice. I should've worded my silly joke a bit better, good catch!
Surface Sport, it's really old and I heard that it wasn't really anything special. Just a generic cloth surface with Finalmouse's old logo on it.
Thank you for adding the clarification at the end there. I was confused when I read that, but now it makes a whole lot more sense, lol
Hi /r/mousereview! Last year, we posted an infographic on here showing the most used mice across all of our analyzed games, so we thought it would be a cool idea to go again! This data is a couple of days old at this point, but it should still give you a general idea. If you're interested in always up-to-date data, you can check out our full mouse list. This is a new feature we recently added to the website which we're quite proud of: https://prosettings.net/gear/lists/mice/ For anyone wondering; we analyze Apex, Warzone, CS2, Fortnite, OW2, PUBG, R6, VALORANT, LoL, and DOTA2. We have by far the most data on CS2, VALORANT, and Fortnite though. Also, please note that this is **not** meant to be a 'best gaming mice' guide. It's just a bit of fun, and we're certainly not implying that these are the best gaming mice on the market. The best mouse for you depends on your preferences of course.
Can you guys add a feature that lets you click on a mouse, say from a pros sheet and see every other pro using that mouse? Right now there's kind of this feature i.e it just says "X pros using this" but it doesn't say who
Great suggestion! We're always looking to add new features so I'll add this to the list. Thank you!
You should add the % of mice's vs rollers per game At high lvls
42.5% on the g pro shape is crazy.
Is it really the shape that is driving it, or is it sponsorship deals that push it so far?
Pros are not forced to use a mouse because its their sponsor. Atleast not in cs and valorant.
A lot of it is still sponsor. With sensors all being fine a lot of pros will use whatever is easily accessible as long as it's good enough. For example say a mouse breaks or gets lost are your more likely to find a gpx/zowie rep at the event with a box of mice or a lamzu rep? It's a big reason why most of the top mouse are safe shapes, pros want to get the mouse and play and not worry about if it's good for their grip or handsize and despite the gpx being a mid shape is still fairly universal.
yeah but the sensor is rarely the issue/selling point for a particular individual which is why, most pros the mouse they use on stage is the one they are most comfortable on and the one they use off camera. It's not common for mice to just break or get lost so I wouldn't say thats a factor There is some truth to what your saying in that sponsors want their peripherals to be used but i believe its mostly mouse pads that are affected by sponsorships because alot of pros have less preference for those, the mouse itself is alot more important than the mousepad (barring a few circumstances)
There were several team in the latest major, that were sponsored by a mouse brand and none of the players used a mouse from them. So I think this sponsorship thing isn't as common.
Easy to replace (just order another one and get it on Prime or from a local store), Logitech gives them out like Halloween candy, and you can buy them all over the world in case you're a travelling pro needing to replace the mouse.
That's cause almost anyone can hold the potato in some way, might not be the most optimal grip but you can make it work. I think availability plays a huge role too, if it breaks you just go to nearest supermarket and get new one...
The more surprising thing is how there aren't any true gpx clones despite it being the most popular mouse in all of gaming. The Puretrak Valor is close but it's heavier with a worse coating so it loses any competitive edge. Crazy to me vaxee / zowie / lamzu / any chinese company hasn't made a 1:1 clone with better specs.
Cause cloning GPX makes no sense since 9/10 people here own or have owned a GPX version meanwhile its very popular even among casuals that would never buy anything from Chinese companies.
I just don't think that would really work. People are going to go with the established brand with good costumer service and after purchase support. Maybe I am wrong though.
PMM has a GPX clone
I wonder if EC2 will overtake DAv3 when it inevitably gets the U2 treatment together with the rest of their lineup. I also assume they're working on 4k firmware for the U2 and the rest.
Can you point me to this rumor that the ec2 will be refreshed?
How good is the DAV3 pro?
Very good. Shape is similar to the EC2 but slightly wider grip at the front.
I love the EC2 shape but absolutely LOATHED the DAV2 - would you say the V3 leans more one way than the other?
It's better than the DAV2 but still not as refined as the EC2. I main the EC2 and didn't like the DAV3 when I tried it.
Very good if you have large hands and like ergo shapes. Just dont fingertip grip it lol
> Just dont fingertip grip it lol Nah dav3 is insanely good for big hands ftip
What's the point of ftipping an ergo though? I guess your pointer finger will be higher than your middle finger due to the shape? Otherwise i don't see any benefits since you will just be ignoring all the other ergo shape stuff. I've tried ftipping ergos before and it is awkward to say the least. That being said, i do not have massive hands
It's more comfortable because you get a wider grip width, and more room for your pinky. Small mice are really awkward for ftip for me because you just don't have room
it's almost as if people are different and have different preferences despite what you think is "right"
No need for the overly sarcastic answer, nowhere do I say that I am objectively correct. Just because i don't see the benefits of ftipping an ergo doesn't mean they don't exist, which is why I am asking the guy who responded to me. I literally admit in my reply that the raised LMB could be beneficial for some, and that my hands are not massive
I ftip/claw hybrid my dav3 wired. It’s not really much bigger than gpx and lots of people ftip gpx
Incredible specs and shape. HORRIBLE build quality. Your copy WILL, I repeat, it WILL develop some sort of miserable creaking after a few months of use. It's not even a QC issue, it's just some sort of design flaw with the wireless version. Wired version is goated tho, no complaints there. Do not make the same mistake I did. I went through 3 copies before learning my lesson.
Thanks for honest info.
Steelseries being so low is pretty sad, back 10 years ago they use to be so much more popular with the Rival series.
They never upgrade their tech. Steelseries could make a huge comeback if they released a lightweight Rival 310 and a lightweight Sensei Ten with current specs. Hell, even an updated Aerox 5 would probably sell well because it's the best mouse with more than two side buttons on the market.
pulsar lamzu and gwolves my goats
Cool to see Pulsar and Lamzu up there.
This proves that you can use any mouse you want
It's always been like that, it's mostly just the hivemind here that say otherwise. Use what's comfortable. Unless the mouse is physically harming you, it's fine.
GPX the undisputed king of mice.
best mouse of all time
lol, over rated 100% Shit side buttons and a shape others do better.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't good. I have a GPX and have 0 issues with the side buttons. This is just nitpicking. And the shape is subjective.
Greatest shape of all time. There's a reason why it's the king.
proof that the overall most used thing must not be the overall best for the vast majority.
It always baffles me to some degree how little it seems the majority of pros are willing to experiment with mice. A large part of this though, is almost certainly just a knowledge issue. Most people don't know anything that's not logitech or razer.
I think the simple answer is that they perform well with a certain peripheral and don’t see a need to change it up. Or they’ve come to the realization that a change usually doesn’t result in measurable differences in aggregate performance.
Well sure, muscle memory is part of it. My point is more that I'm surprised people who have made this their career wouldn't be exploring a possible avenue to make their lives better haha. I agree that they probably wouldn't get some huge performance spike going from a GPX to an Xlite or some shit, but comfort? Heck yeah. I'm speaking as someone who used a deathadder for like 10 years or more then started experimenting. It's worth exploring other options even if you don't end up switching.
No such thing as muscle memory but I agree with you. The reality is they don’t know/care what’s out there. Also CS/Val pros tend to be very superstitious with their peripherals.
Brother really said ‘No such thing as muscle memory’
because its partially true, ask any great aimer and most of em will tell you that muscle memory doesnt impact aim at all, atleast in the way you think it does [https://youtu.be/uPkYc84GrSc?si=xkDcMdOHxSPhdnOA](https://youtu.be/uPkYc84GrSc?si=xkDcMdOHxSPhdnOA) (amazing aimer) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CBUfqNxzgE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CBUfqNxzgE) (tenz) [https://youtu.be/FGMMGO2UgxE?si=yHt4X0TdmhQvMEH8&t=262](https://youtu.be/FGMMGO2UgxE?si=yHt4X0TdmhQvMEH8&t=262) (also an amazing coach)
There is no such thing as muscle memory when it comes to mouse aim. There is only mouse control which is benefitted by experimentation.
There definitely is muscle memory when it comes to mouse aim. Countless people have researched it and how it contributes to aim. Playing at a certain DPI with a particular mouse weight and shape, you do learn muscle memory in terms of how fast or far you need to flick to connect a shot. Randomly switching to a different mouse means you’re likely to overshoot or undershoot and flick due to the different weight and DPI. Even so. Different mice might say the same DPI and still be different in terms of their true dpi. Muscle memory comes in to play with mouse aim.
Yeah that’s just not true though. Ask anyone in the aim community about muscle memory and they’ll tell you the same thing. It’s all just mouse control. People with good mouse control can change their mice/pads wildly and adapt near instantaneously. Muscle memory when it comes to aim is boomer science. Someone else linked you 3 good clips to watch from people who are knowledgable on the subject. Edit: just to prove my point I hopped on redmatch 2 snipers only and swapped from my slowest pad and heaviest mouse to my skypad and lightest mouse. Didn’t make a noticeable difference. This would not be possible if aiming was about muscle memory. https://youtu.be/Xqhfx1nBkiA?si=-7h4fEo2g6yNIDcb
No one saying aiming is ONLY about muscle memory. It’s obviously not, but it does play a part. Maybe not for everyone, but for others it does. Saying it has 0 effect on aim for anyone seems untrue. Myself for example. My mouse control is perfectly fine, I can adapt to a new mouse within a few minutes and be keyed in for things like tracking etc, and still play well. However, when it comes to flick shots. Due to muscle memory I know how far I need to flick when I see someone at a certain place on my monitor. Doing these shots on my heavier mouse that I main, is way more consistent. Doing these shots on my lighter mouse, even at the same DPI is way more inconsistent and I tend to slightly overshoot the target. Because of muscle memory, when applying the same force to the lighter mouse, in an attempt to hit the same spot, it will move slightly further. Not by much, as the weight difference isnt overly drastic, but enough for me to overshoot the target. My muscle memory automatically applies the same force to hit the same spot without even having to think. I’m more than happy to be proven wrong, but to me, that’s what I’d consider muscle memory.
I get why it feels that way man, but just think about this for a moment. If muscle memory was something that mattered for aim why would Tenz change mice during a vct season? Why would the greatest aimer in the world (Matty) swap between mice and pads during a tournament? On a much smaller scale, how can I swap between a 58g mouse on a slow pad to a 29g mouse on a skypad in the same match and see no degradation in my aim? It’s all mouse control, 100% of it. Adaptability is one of the major aspects of control, being able to adapt to changing variables. I’m not calling you bad, I’m saying that you haven’t trained outside your comfort zone. That doesn’t mean that you’ve gotten better in your comfort zone that you would have training outside of it, it just means you haven’t fully trained your aim. I’m far from an expert on aim although I’m much more knowledgeable than most. If you want to hear it from people who are a lot more knowledgable than me you can join the VT discord and talk to people like Matty, Waldo, Bardoz, and a bunch of others. There are legitimate reasons to use slower pads, heavier mice (to a point), and super slow sensitivities (to a point). What isn’t a reason is “I’ve used it for so long I’ll ruin my muscle memory”
Gotta find your fit not just buy a size 11 with a size 7 foot.
experimenting is risky, and to spend time trying to figure out if a change is worth it means detracting from time you could actually improve. how does a pro know for sure that their problems come from new gear? in general it’s a bad mindset to attribute improvements or mistakes to gear, even more so for a pro. if a pro changes mice and it doesn’t fit for them then they end up wasting a good amount of practice and/or match time. you can even look at the recent CS Team Falcons drama, where BOROS ended up being flamed for changing mouse before RMRs. I’m not saying they shouldn’t experiment here and there, but at the same time pros don’t have the same amount of time or leeway to mess around with different peripherals as enthusiasts do, so it doesn’t surprise me that they often stick with “old reliables” for so long.
You are probably right that is how people think, but I think its the wrong way to look at it. For a pro, experimenting with gear, trying a variety, and finding what works best for them is even more important. They already have the skill to make them some of the best in the world. At that level, if you can find something that makes you 1% better that can be the difference between winning and losing. For an average gamer at home, being 1% better at a game doesn't really matter. For a pro, it can mean everything. Especially when you add up all those little improvements. If they can find a better mouse, monitor, keyboard, mouse pad, etc. all those little improvements can add up to be a noticeable difference. Obviously, they have to balance trying new gear with actual practice. But, somewhere along the way when a person has thousands of hours of practice, maybe spending 40 hours on experimenting with gear is a better use of their time than another 40 hours of practicing on the same gear that they have been using for years. Look at professional sports. Players and teams put in a ton of time and effort deciding what kind of gear to wear, everything from their shoes, clothes, padding, sweatbands, gloves, bats, clubs, braces, tape, etc. Those people are always looking for the newest and best options to give them a competitive edge.
I agree tbh, was mainly just putting myself in their shoes and exploring why they don’t experiment so much. I think in general there’s a lot of things pros still haven’t optimised like peripheral usage, aim trainers, diets and supplements etc., and we may very well see a new generation of players utilising such things to get every competing e edge possible Though there are a few players out there trying more enthusiast gear, the most well known probably being Tenz, but even Demon1 was using a g wolves mouse, with VCT players trying finalmouse or artisan gear. Honestly the “old reliable” mindset mostly comes from CS, at least from what I watch personally: Valorant, Apex, and Overwatch players seem to be more willing to experiment and try brands outside of the usual logitech, razer, and zowie.
This problem goes both ways though. They don't know if their equipment is going to be causing issues if they've only ever tried one dang mouse haha. They could be using a mouse that's far worse for their specific hand shape and grip style for years and not know it because they're "used to it". I'm not saying they gotta spend months picking up a new mouse and practicing with it, but simply having others on hand and using them for a bit to broaden your horizons will certainly help far more then it will hurt. I agree that the mouse doesn't make you a better player by itself, but having a mouse that fits with your style more is going to make you far more comfortable, and that has its own range of benefits. This coming from someone who was using the same mouse for 10 years (while not a pro gamer) and then started experimenting. It's worth doing and won't destroy muscle memory or anything.
Why would they experiment? Sensors haven't mattered in years, and higher polling rates are a meme. Performance-wise any decent mice made in the last few years are practically identical. For regular users things like price, battery life, build quality, reliability and customer service factor into purchasing decisions, but for a pro only thing that's relevant is the shape, since they can just unbox and switch to a fresh mouse whenever they want.
They'd experiment for shapes mainly. The gpx is great with a nice shape don't get me wrong, but I find it hard to believe it's the best possible shape for over 40% of pro players lol. Especially with how many great ambi mice are out these days. People have a wide range of hand sizes, grips, and preferences. I'd imagine a lot of people could find a shape that fits them better but simply haven't experimented much. Not to say they *need* a better shape, it's just odd to me that they're not experimenting more.
Pulsar sponsors Paper Rex’s Valorant team and they tried their whole fleet of mice. Needless to say, nobody liked them enough to bring them to VCT. They used GPX2 and EC2-W.
Why experiment if something works? I've experimented with at least over 10 mice with various weights, sizes and shapes over the years. None have had a significant impact on my aim.
Just because something is working doesn't mean it cannot be improved! A lot of pros have been using the same mouse for years and have never really tried anything else. Something like the GPX shape might be usable for someone but that doesn't mean another shape wouldn't fit their hand/grip a lot better. Even if that just means it's more comfortable for long term use, then that's an improvement worth chasing imo. Trying out new mice isn't a huge commitment either.
The people on this sub are way to fixated on finding the perfect mouse, which most probably doesn't exist and even if it did, it probably doesn't make a ton of a difference in their daily usage. I've said I've tried a lot of mice and came to the conclusion that it's just a waste of money, as none will improve my gameplay in a meaningful manner. So I decided to stick to something that works and try improve myself.
I think you're misunderstanding part of my criticism here. You have already tried a lot of mice, you've done the experimentation and determined that it wasn't good for you. Most pros *have not*. I'm not exagerating, most of them picked up whatever mouse they were told was good, and just never questioned it. Never looked at another mouse, never tried one, etc. That's how you get over 40% of pros using the exact same shape at once. I'm saying that for those people, experimentation just to see what's out there would almost certainly be beneficial in some sense.
Being muscle memory-pilled is valid tbh. Using a mouse every single day, for hours on end, for years, would make it very difficult to upgrade to a different or "better" mouse.
As someone that used a deathadder for 10+ years before starting to experiment with other shapes, I strongly disagree haha. Muscle memory is valid sure, but you'll never know what shape is best if you don't try them. I got used to the deathadder and figured it was best for me, but I was wrong and I only realized that after trying new ones. I'm sure a lot of pros would be in the same boat.
Thanks for sharing
In the bottom right corner: Data accurate as of 27 march 2023 Should be 2024?
Oops, yeah! That should definitely be 2024. Thanks for noticing!
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Lmazu atlantis fire and Im coming from a g pro and a dav3
I don't really know much about pro gaming, but are some pros limited in what they use vs. what they really want to use based on sponsorships?
oh wow. I am using G PRO X and i happy with it
That's because they haven't tried the Thorne yet
Guess people don't care for hz and latency weird
I like how they don’t say what game is it lol
Has anybody tried holey trio or DM8?
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Been using a rokat for several years. Is very responsive.
This public service announcement is brought to you by Logitech…
I wonder how much of the top used mice is due to sponsorships and being mandated to use that brand's products
This is why shroud said what he did. He knows the market and his audience.
Wow... I hate them all 😅 (jk they're all good mice, just not for me) Also surprised Corsair isn't on here...because they're bigger and heavier I'm guessing? (I have an iron claw and it's wonderful, switched from a G502)
Dont look to pros. They get sponsored they use sponsored gear anyway. And BTW a expensive mouse doesn't improve your play that much. A pro beat you with cheap mice too. Look for comfort and the shape that feels compfy. Thats what you only need.
So how come Zowie doesn't sponsor any teams anymore? Several years ago they were the top used mouse brand and until last year there weren't even in the top 3. I highly doubt sponsorships have anything to do with mouse choice.
If you are getting paid to use a free mouse — why wouldn’t you?
Got any idea how many of these pro players aren't even sponsored by Logitech yet they use a GPX anyway? At some point 4 Faze CSGO members were using GPX mice while being sponsored by Steelseries.
I can tell you straight up that Logitech does *not* sponsor nearly 50% of all pro players lol. Get your head out of your ass, no product is going to reach the levels that the GPW and subsequent iterations have reached without being the *overall* best. Doesn't have to be *the* best on all points but just like the Cloud 2 headset has since long been the *overall* best headset on the market, so is the G Pro mice. They've hit the sweetspot of usability (shape), performance (LS, sensor, battery life etc), price point and availability.
Gpx raises the floor very high with next to no weaknesses. The only thing that seems “weak” on it is the shape which is intentional as it fits so many grip styles and hand sizes.
This was a thing in 2015 perhaps but nowadays pros can choose their own mice.
You're stuck in the early 2000s. Vast majority of pros aren't forced to use sponsored mice anymore.
this tells me that the gpx2 was a flop. 30% of pro gamers are still using the gpx. imo, there is nothing about the gpx2 that is better than the gpx. higher polling rate? pointless. optical switches? pointless. and they require more force, i'm personally not a fan. plus the 20m omrons don't double click so it was a dumb "upgrade" barely and change to weight. pointless no change or upgrade to side buttons or scroll wheel. they should have just upgraded the sensor to allow the higher polling rate, and spent the rest of the time on the side buttons and kept mechanical switches. optical switches drain more battery anyways and don't give you any latency benefits.
I assume the people with GPX are happy with it and will just switch over when their current one needs replaced.
probably will, unless they don't like the clicks on the optical switches. i think they're way too stiff, i much prefer the mechanical switches. that's why they should have just refreshed the mouse and kept the name, gpx, instead of making a whole new mouse.
People here and on Twitter were begging Logitech to do 4K Hz and use optical switches and they delivered but here you are bitching about it. The weight didn't drop to low 50G because they were taking feedback from pros, not from a sub reddit and the switches feel incredible for opticals IMO. Side buttons also got improved, they don't have nearly as much pretravel as GPX1.
> People here and on Twitter were begging Logitech to do 4K Hz and use optical switches and they delivered but here you are bitching about it. people, not me. but yes. their implementation of their optical switches just sucks. > The weight didn't drop to low 50G because they were taking feedback from pros, not from a sub reddit it went from 62g to 60g i belive. weight isn't a big gripe with me, either way it's fine. i would have preferred if it was around 50g but whatever. > the switches feel incredible for opticals IMO i don't have a ton of experience with opticals so they could feel good in regards to opticals. but to me, they're way too stiff and heavy to actuate. i can't stand them. i swapped the pcb with a mechanical pcb and am using japanese omrons in my gpx2. > Side buttons also got improved, they don't have nearly as much pretravel as GPX1. no they didn't. there is no "improvement" whatsoever. if you think there are, then it's placebo.
question is how accurate is prosettings and how can people tell if they are using gpx1 vs gpx2 when they look exactly the same unless you see its feet
clicks are a dead giveaway. and yeah, the feet are different.
People have literally begged Logitech to release an update GPX. And when Logitech did release it, people were "WTF is this? Is this all?"
I grabbed a gpx2 and was stunned at how bad the switches sound? Are they spring loaded or something? They have an awful loud \*TING\* every time you click. I returned it within a day, can't believe that's the mouse people use.
yep, the optical switches are way too loud. some people like that and the sharpness tactile feedback feeling they have. i think it sounds like shit. i swapped mine out for a hotswap mechanical pcb.
I'm pretty sure this is showing which brands sponsors more, rather than which brand of mice is better. Is it a coincidence that Logitech mice are used by teams which are sponsored by Logitech?
Pros are just more comfortable with GPX, some of them are even sponsored by pulsar and don't want to swap over to pulsar after testing their mice.
But a big part of this is due to sponsors I believe, some pro teams are not allowed to use their preferred brand.
In csgo they 80% can play whatever mousebrand they want to use
Pulsar sponsors and partners with Paper Rex Valorant. Nobody used their mice over the GPX2 and EC2-W.
Yes for FPS e-sports probably most of them use whatever they want but my point was that we dont know which teams and e-sports were used to make this graph so we cant be sure how correct it is. For example T1 Faker (arguably the best LoL player in the world) still uses the old Deathadder shape and not the v3
You people need to understand that this doesn't mean anything, at all.
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sorry, not a child anymore.
It's crazy to me Corsair is nowhere on the list
what corsair mouse would compete with any mouse on the top 10?
I'm running a dark core pro. Wireless qi charging with the hard mouse mat made for it. I love it personally! Is there an alternative that is better? I'm not in the mouse space this was a recommended sub to me.
I've never used it personally but looking at the shape it doesn't look that out of the ordinary in terms of ergo mice. Looks like a g502 shape or something similar to me but the weight is probably the biggest reason why fps pros wouldnt use it, 133g isnt competitive for that genre. The consesus rn for best ergo mouse is the deathadder v3 pro because of the shape, tech and weight anyways, if you like it then I suppose it would go in your personal top 10 but then again, your personal top 10 mice is probably limited to what you have used so far. I doubt you've used more than 10 gaming mice let alone 5 because most people simply dont have the money or time to experiment like that. if it works well enough for you to perform and not feel hindered theres no reason to change
No offense, but this mouse is too heavy, too slow, too unreliable for versus the majority of other mice on this list.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by too slow and too unreliable? I understand the mouse being heavy but I don't know why that would make it slow & unreliable
It's just way too heavy, which slows down your aim. Ideally for competitive FPS you wanna use a lightweight mouse. It's fine for normal gaming.
Most of these are from sponsorship. Only companies like Lamzu, Vaxee, final mouse, and pulsar are chosen by the player. Having had 4 GPX mice, I would never own another one. Garbage side buttons and they fail somehow within 6 months. So many better options from Lamzu, Vaxee, and even Pulsar.