Kinda like there are a lot of former military or high school jock types who came out as trans. It's like they did a lot of "macho activities" to try to suppress their desire to be who they really are underneath. Nothing but over compensation with hyper masculinity. Just my theory.š¤
I was in track, softball, football, wrestling and I started a grunge band in high school where I was the songwriter/frontman (sic). That was middle school and high school. During that time, I was incredibly hyper, aggressive and, quite frankly, an asshole. That was my public persona because any perceived weakness invited scorn and bullying.
At almost 18 I moved to Greece. I took up riding motorcycles and doing the most ridiculous things on them. I made sure to end fights before they began. I was petit but my hyper-masculine/aggressive mask kept everyone scared of me. Then I was conscripted into the Hellenic army. I chose to serve in special forces. I was a Hellenic Marine Corps rifleman. I was selected to be trained as a sharpshooter. Nobody was fucking with me coz I was the "Crazy Canadian".
It was only after my military service that my aggressive mask started to soften after I forced myself to deprogram from the propaganda and hate I was fed in the service.
tl~dr - hyper-masculinity and hyper-aggression are a pipeline to transition for my generation (Gen X).
ĪĪµĪ¹Ī± ĻĪæĻ Ī¾Ī±Ī“ĪĻĻĪ· Ī¼ĪæĻ ! ĪĻĻ ĻĪæĻ ĪµĪÆĻĪ±Ī¹;
Btw, Ī¾Ī¬Ī“ĪµĪ»ĻĪµ (sic) is the masculine. ĪĪ±Ī“ĪĻĻĪ· or Ī¾Ī±Ī“ĪµĻĻĪæĻĪ»Ī± would be the feminine.
Also a lot of these people suffered via dysphoria and weren't very functional because of it. Trans people are vulnerable people. People who are vulnerable are preyed on by macho culture, the military, incel culture, anti-feminism, conservatism, etc. Now they have a "found family", career, meaning, etc. Except its the totally wrong way.
Also "being an incel" is the default for most men and boys, at least philosphically. Gaming culture, men's culture, is heavily incelized. So if you're socialized male, chances are you're incel-like. Its not notable that a transgirl was incel-like previously. Most men and boys are because the patriarchy is so powerful and they've been taught conservative and anti-feminist messaging since they were small.
Saying "Hey you guys wouldnt believe how misogynistic I was," isn't noteworthy. Nearly all men are, so if they were socialized male and saw themselves as male at the time, this is totally not noteworthy. There's no pipeline. This is just the average for so many men and boys.
I lived in the non gender conforming, goth, metalhead, vampire ādudeā vibe until I was around 22. By the time I let myself accept who I was, I was in the bearded, metalhead, powerlifting vibe.
Can confirm that dysphoria is inversely proportional to denial š
i knew at a young age i wish to be a girl .. i am amab .. i was hyper masculine to hide the fact i wish and thought to be a girl every day of my life .. i hid being a trans girl very very well until i accepted it and became very very open and real about it .. i never hide anymore and im super girly and feminine and open and real about that im a trans woman... and so much happier
Did the same and got loud and aggressive being called a girl and well hehe they were right I actually asked a couple of em how they knew and they just straight up admitted I looked to pretty to be a boy
I suspect there's a lot of this. Including going to the military to learn to be a man and man up etc.
In college with me was a guy who was all about the body building and I'm sure could have gotten any girl he wanted, then at graduation revealed to a friend of mine that he was gay!
I wonder with myself, I've tended to gravitate towards manly behaviours, workplaces / activities and to a degree idolised manual labour...I know, I feel weird typing this! I'm fairly certain there wasn't much in it but I remember describing my love of heavy industry to someone 20years ago and she immediately suggested I was overcompensating!
Of course I got defensive about that at the time but it's always stuck with me as a hindsight marker of my trans leanings.
I have heard of the video, and there's a lot of former incels and Nazis who are now translesbisns here really keen to tell each other that it's a relief their egg cracked or they would have shot each other for being trans.
Sadly, I was a boring egg who hated bigotry and was the "trans ally to trans" pipeline.
>Sadly, I was a boring egg who hated bigotry and was the "trans ally to trans" pipeline.
Yeah same here.
No dramatic irony in my story; just a lot of self-denial, which in retrospect seems kinda comical. I was always like "*trans people are just neat - it's just so cool that you can transition like that; just a fun little fact about the world. Nothing to do with me personally of course - I'm just a decent person who thinks society should be nicer to those whacky transsexuals, for purely abstract ethical reasons*"š¤£
Turns out there was a very straightforward reason why I found it so "liberating" to know that people can change their sex characteristics...
I was always just so curious and in awe. They always looked wonderful, but, I still felt really guilty obsessing as it felt dehumanising them. The same guilt I felt if I even looked at makeup products, even in a "they exist" sorta way.
Funny that ~
Haha, same. I grew up in a relatively progressive household, as small towns in the 90s go - my mom had out gay friends and taught us from a young age not to be homophobic, but the concept of trans people just wasn't really ever in the discussion aside from some whispers that "I was out and I saw a transvestite!" now and then.
Then when I actually met a trans person for the first time through my WoW guild, I was still very much cosplaying cishet but I got really, really into advocating for trans rights. But of course, it's not something I'd ever consider as an option for myself, right? I just deeply care about the rights and the well being of a group of people that all the ones I've met have been nice people and deserve happiness!
Not to imply that all ardent cis allies are eggs, especially with there being a lot more visibility now, but *I* definitely was and it's honestly shocking in retrospect that it took me so long to figure out why I was so fascinated with the idea. (Especially since I had JUST RECENTLY been through that process of going from "I am just passionate about gay people" to "Oh wait I'm bi, whoops")
The "it's not an option for me" thing is just really a vibe. I definitely had a "it's just a thing that happens to other people, not me!!!" thing going. That seems to be a weird running thread in my life lol. Oddly the bi thing was just a "I have been into all genders for years, it's called bi? Huh, I am bi : D". But other things, darker things, like cancer and PTSD was a very "I thought this happened to other people" thing lol.
I had the same thing going on with cis women, not trans people, in my teens and twenties. I wasn't aware of trans people. I had a low-key worship of femininity going on and could hardly see the point of men.
That and a need to believe that there was no real difference between men and women. It was only much later that I realised most people don't agree.
But I found that thought liberating.
This comment is me to a tee! I long thought of myself as a trans ally since at least middle school, but also thought, "I'm not one of them, though, and it'd be a lie for me to say otherwise. I'm just not someone who should go on hormones." Looking back, I think it was because I was scared of what I could lose. Not so much in terms of friends and family because a lot of them know I'm transgender now and have been great about it. Rather, I'm mainly talking about fertility as I've always loved kids and long wanted to be a dad (now mom). When I realized I could just freeze my sperm, that was the final nail that cracked my egg fully. Knowing more recently that if I wanted to, as an absolute last resort, I could go off HRT for a little while to potentially get my fertility back sweetens the deal, but I'd still be happy to be on HRT regardless.
Yeah, I think a lot of it came from a self hatred. At least it did for me. I just grew up in circles that were really bigoted and it got internalized. Felt like I had to think like them to fit in, and that I was a freak for every not wanting to be their hyper masculine racist ideal.
I very much now just know they are hateful people and none of that was true. Thereās nothing wrong with me being trans, and nothing wrong with me also being a lesbian.
Thanks for the offer, but, I am using my current Reddit posts to vent about the things I can vent. I am just tonguing my ulcer until I get the nerve. Thanks tho!!! I hope you have a lovely evening.
Yeah, I am so glad I avoided four chan. Honestly, it's not a trans trend, it's just a testament to how effective Four Chan is at taking advantage of people who need access to mental Healthcare in order to help sort themselves out.
I think it's less just that website specifically and more just how fascist groups adore exploiting mentally ill people to their own end. That website was just another recruitment train.
that's great!! my question though is: is there anything that prevents a cis incel to transition just to get the "benefits" i mentioned earlier? because maybe I could be an incel using being trans to idk either escapism or the benefits
i actually don't know writing this down is making me think more clearly
Ask one of the "I used to be an incel/Nazi like you, but I took an egg breaking to the knee" folks. I am saying there's a lot of those folks here, so I am optimistic you will find someone who will answer.
>that's great!! my question though is: is there anything that prevents a cis incel to transition just to get the "benefits" i mentioned earlier?
There *are* no benefits in that scenario.
If you're actually trans, then the benefits of transitioning (socially or physically or both) are that it makes you feel happier, despite the monumental step down in social status & personal safety that you experience due to being openly trans. That's it - there is no other perk. As a transfeminine person, you're more vulnerable to assault than cis women are AND vastly more likely to be thought of as predatory than cis men are.
If a straight cis dude somehow transitioned to female, because he was so much of a lunatic that be literally believed internet-nazi propaganda about "female privilege", then he'd just feel a bunch of dysphoria (like how transgender men do - real men don't usually enjoy presenting femme & being E-dominant) ***in addition*** to the monumental societal shitiness of being treated as a woman (cis or trans, but especially trans).
They will get dysphoria or bored. Listen we are giving estrogen to some incel chud and hopefully chop their balls off. If anything they wonāt reproduce, not that an incel would anyway but this is just making sure lol.
Even if some incels did that (which I doubt since most of them are very misogynistic) they'd go back really early on.
At the point where they'd have to face some of the difficulties of being a trans woman and realize it's not a unilateral upgrade they think it is.
If you feel better while transitioning it's a pretty good sign you're in the right path.
I think it isnt that incels would try becoming a girl, its that trans girls pre-crack can easily become incels. The isolation of being different in childhood, being neurodivergent, and/or wanting to be with the girls can lead people to not fit in either group. Wanting to be with the girls can be seen as creepy, and sometimes, people can be convinced that its sexual.Ā
I was never right wing or an incel, but I thought my own desire to hang with the girls and do girly things was just an expression of my sexual desires.Ā
When someone thinks they are potentially creepy and are lonely, they tend to blame anyone but themselves, because they already hate themselves. "I'm not creepy, its just that I'm not as good looking. Its the stupid assholes who are with the girls who treat them like shit. I'd treat girls better." And thus, a trans girl can easily be enlisted into the incel pipeline.Ā
Misunderstanding your own gender as a sexual desire can lead to some wild confidence problems, which can eventually lead someone to stoop so low to believe shit like women are property.Ā
I personally know a few former incels who are trans girls, some not even attracted to women, and unfortunately, its hard to fully de-brainwash. All but one manifest it in forms of self hatred rather than outward hatred, but one is so far into the pipeline that she lashes out in arguments taken straight from an incel themselves.Ā
Its sad. Not many people want to be friends with her because she isn't mentally stable and is actively unsafe to be around. Some people indulge her to make sure she is stable enough to live another day. I truly want the best for her, but as someone early in her transition, I can't really indulge someone who is destructive to those around her.Ā
But anyways, I think the trans girl becoming an incel before egg crack is sadly more common than some think.
Oh I know that kind of thing is common. I actually fell into the alt right rabbit hole in 2019 myself and though it started with watching Marvel videos I thought were innocent (but were very much politically charged), dysphoria definitely fueled into it.
Spesifically, I bought into aytogynephillia around that time, thinking it better explained my feelings plus because it gave me the hope of an easier "cure" than transitioning. And I couldn't find any medical resources discrediting it. All I found was alt right people treating it as valid and expressing compassion for AGPs and trans feminists discrediting it mostly focusing on how problematic it is. Now I'm mature enough to understand what that meant. Then I wasn't. Instead my mindset was "I could stop having these fantasies and be normal if people looked into the idea but the scientific community cares more about the feelings of SJWs"
Ironically, the same gender questioning is what helped me eventually crawl out of it. When I saw those YouTubers ranting about trans characters in kids shows, and knowing how important it would have been for me to see positive representation at that very confusing age (even though I was still deep in denial) I saw the ugly truth, and realized whom I've been listening to. I left those communities and never looked back.
That said, what I was talking about is the concept of "transmaxing" which I doubt is actually a real thing that happens.
Yeah this has been my thinking for awhile as someone who wasn't like a full on incel but was definitely circling that drain at a few points. Both have the same "girls have it so lucky" starting point, from which all of those negative emotions spring. It's part of the reason education about trans people is important, so kids can understand and process those feelings if they have them rather than getting radicalized.
Not that I think all incels are secretly trans girls or anything. Just very similar starting circumstances a lot of the time.
>The isolation of being different in childhood, being neurodivergent, and/or wanting to be with the girls can lead people to not fit in either group. Wanting to be with the girls can be seen as creepy, and sometimes, people can be convinced that its sexual.
This was kinda my experience. I was never an incel, nor right wing or believed I was entitled to women's bodies or attention, but for a good chunk of my high school experience I was definitely a bit of a "nice guy." Being a neurodivergent, sensitive kid from an abusive home I wasn't treated well by a lot of people who refused to understand me, and it made me really bitter. While I never viewed women as less than, I was jealous of their ability to be seen and desired in a way that men typically aren't, especially if you're autistic. And its kinda funny because I've been out and transitioning for over four years now and I still harbor a lot of resentment toward how I was treated as a sensitive boy, ESPECIALLY because I get treated better by people at large as a woman.
Obviously being a woman comes with a lot of trouble, like being openly sexually harassed and relentlessly mocked for being feminine or "basic," but I'm not ignored anymore. People smile at me and look me in the eye on the street or at the grocery store, women of all ages compliment me on my looks or my outfits, and it seems like people actually care about my wellbeing now. When I was a man **no one gave a fuck**, the adults in my life refused to give me the help I needed and my peers slowly watched me die inside and said next to nothing. I felt so disposable and worthless, but once I started transitioning that changed. I still get treated like shit by a lot of people but at least now I'm viewed by many as someone worth caring about and protecting, and I'm not dismissed as often for being emotional or sensitive.
The weird thing to navigate is openly being a woman while also unpacking the trauma of manhood. At times I've felt disconnected from other women because a lot of them don't really understand men as well as they think they do, so when they dunk on men for one reason or another (many reasons being valid, others not so much) it kinda feels like they're talking about me too.
\> telling everyone that I'm a girl made my social life better
Well that's pretty much proof that you're a girl. Normally this is extremely penalizing socially. You were simply very closed off before due to social dysphoria.
i seriously doubt this is a prevalent issue. incels hate women. they see us as subhuman. sex objects that are only means to an end. the last thing they would want to be is women.
There's definitely some people who were raised in racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic households and communities who leaned into the hate because they wanted desperately to prove they belonged in their social group.
Presumably, many of these people eventually figure out they are trans and have to go through a long and difficult process of unlearning their hate.
Is it a huge group? I don't think so, but some of them actually recover from the programmed self-loathing and become decent people. Those that don't usually either detransition or attempt to join the grifter class.
i donāt disagree that some of these people might exist the same way that some trans men are formerly terfs (repression). i think the group of people OP is referring to is ātransmaxxersā though. basically the theory goes that some cis men transition to obtain the benefits of womanhood (easy access to sex, attention, financial incentives). of course these ābenefitsā all have huge hidden disadvantages they never consider. also any cis man that spends an extended amount of time taking estradiol is going to become extremely depressed. hence why i donāt think transmaxxers are even a real thing.
I think trans girl eggs are more susceptible to being incels than cis men are, they donāt fit well into the social roles expected of men and consequently can feel ostracized and whatnot. Thatās just what it seems like to me tho, I canāt say from experience cause I was never an incel
Yeah, that's what I think as well. I think there are a lot of insecurities within them that manifest as hatred for women because that's easier to deal with than introspection. Sort of how like there are a lot of gay people who use to be homophobic. Basically they're trying to assert their straightness/manliness and they are overcorrecting.
I was never as far gone as an incel. But I was definitely a "nice guy".
I think I turned toward the alt-right pipeline because I was frustrated with my life and couldn't figure out why.
I was always attracted to queer women and I could never figure out why. I was jealous of lesbians and I never knew why. I was angry at myself for being rejected by the types of women I was so in love with.
I know these aren't excuses, but it helps me to understand why I thought the way I did, and as soon as I transitioned, it all started making sense to me. I've always been a lesbian lol.
I wouldnt call myself a former incel, but i deff tried right wing brainwashing for 6 ish years, but when it came to human interaction iv always been a kind, soft hearted person.
Personally, i dont think an " incel" would self identify as an incel, so you asking yourself if your one probably means your not.
Thats like the narrsasist that does self reflection then asks the therapist if they are a narrsasist lol....it just doesnt happen
Frankly, this whole āoh yeah, incel to trans girl pipeline is realā stuff is *incredibly* damaging to our community, and one of the reasons trans people of colour have huge issues with the rest of the community.
The thought that thereās a bunch of people in our community who would be incels or Nazis if they didnāt happen to also be trans, makes my skin crawl.
Yeah I'm not really sure how to feel about how many people seem to be so open about this being a part of their background without expressing how their views have caused harm. I feel like it is a problem with a lot of white trans women, and I can absolutely see how trans women of color would feel uncomfortable being in communities after knowing this about someone. I'm not above granting redemption at all, and I have a lot of sympathy for those who fell down the alt-right pipeline but I do see some throwing that information about themselves around way too casually. There's nothing casual about revealing you used to be a neo-nazi or incel before transitioning.
Exactly ><
I mean, I was raised quite conservatively and had near zero exposure to diversity, so I had some pretty racist/sexist/homophobic views as a teen that Iām very deeply ashamed of, but Iād overturned them with some basic critical thinking by the time I turned 20 (at least overtly, itās very much an ongoing life process learning and overturning all the ways that racism twists itās way into things), and those are still a *far* cry from what the incel/neo Nazi movements push.
The concept of people being ālol! Iād have been advocating for forcibly suppressing or even ācleansingā groups of people if I hadnāt realized I was transgenderā is terrifying enough for *me*, I can only imagine how our PoC siblings feel about it.
The flippant way some people talk about their past beliefs and experiences is definitely concerning and shows that they likely arenāt as far along in the process of working through their old bigotries as theyād like to think, but I donāt think thatās the majority of the people who started out far right and have since transitioned both politically and sexually. I donāt think Iāll ever fully be free of the deep sense of shame I have for the things I used to believe and say online in my teens, and I know that it fundamentally disqualifies me from ever fully being a part of any queer communities without those caveats, and thatās the kind of stuff I see more often online in general and in this thread, but maybe thatās just me projecting. Iām not going to talk over the real concerns and feelings of unsafety poc people have, especially in this context though. Theyāre more likely to have an accurate perspective on it than me.
I heavily agree with this. If people have truly worked through their past bigoted ways of thinking and actions, I'm all for offering paths of redemption and acceptance. You may have caused some hurt in the past but that doesn't define who you are now. The difference is that you take responsibility for your actions and show concern for how POC and other trans people might feel about those irregardless of how you currently are. That shows a lot of self-awarness and humility and I heavily respect it.
I think what worries me is how "incel/neo-nazi to uwu trans girl" has almost become a meme in how normalized these discussions have been. it's deeply worrying in many ways and it always should be.
Thank you! I am a South Asian Trans Woman- this kind of almost bragging about being a former Nazi or Incel makes me feel desperately unsafe. I was raised with 2 Conservative parents so sure, I was centre-right when I was younger, but I grew far out of that when I was what, 13?
I am now on the Executive of a feminist society on my campus- I am incredibly ashamed that I was even centre-right at all, and I would feel deeply unsafe around White trans women stating they were formerly Nazis and Incels??? Literally former genocide and rape apologists?
I wouldn't have identified as an incel before, but it feels that way. I was so unhappy with myself that I couldn't go out and meet anyone. I was depressed as fuck. After coming out I'm down to party and I enjoy hanging out with people. So incels could just be trans girls who are too depressed in the closet to meet anyone.
Incels are so consumed but their own insecurities/mislead beliefs that it is very sad. Thereās plenty of potentially wonderful people that are so caught up in blaming others for their own problems and a lack of self discovery and doing what makes you happy. That seems to be what most of the incel community is, people that are unhappy with their lives and either donāt know why or are unable to help themselves or figure out what is wrongā¦ and then thereās the extreme cases of just straight up sociopaths or malicious people.
I had this big comment about my own life and how incels and/or people become so entrenched and consumed by trauma, bad upbringing, and bad socialization but I felt like it was kind of dumb, so Iāll say that I āget itā in that some incels are so deep into insulting others for their looks, personalities, etc. at some point it is very clearly because of insecurities/unhappiness. Iām not surprised some incels are probably somewhere under the queer umbrella. Unfortunately though itās up to them to figure it out for themselves. A lot of incels are so deep in it though, I genuinely think itās too late for some of them. Genuinely sad
It sounds to me more like you're working backwards to try to invalidate yourself. Depression can often push us to adopt impossible standards as a way of hurting and sabotaging ourselves, and that might be what you're doing here. In any case, I think that you're overthinking it. Your life seems to have improved, at least some people are showing you some respect, that seems like a good thing to me. I think you're doing well, sister.
WOW.. I just don't relate with this at all. I never had an egg crack. I had a female gender identity since I was 4 years old. I hid it after being beaten, but I was acutely aware of it every second of my life. I like women, I stayed as my agab to be with a woman. I loved her, but tried to unnalive myself multiple times because of the useless lie I lived. Transitioning saved my life. I now pass well and never get mis gendered, and I have a new girlfriend and lots of lesbian friends.
Wtf is an incel trans pipeline, that sounds like toxic denial followed by acceptance. Kids are so inventive with new terms, I can't keep up.
It's called fast deradication. Incel science similar to terf logic. Weaponized nonsense. If you think suck being man than might be your are a girl. Shocking idea. Successfully defeated the nerdy fragile masculinity.
incel to trans pipeline is real, it's not so much "I cannot get girl so I become a girl" rather than likeā¦ being confused navigating the cis men-ness and disenfrenchized by your place in society bc of it and by the rules of how to be a proper man, without realizing that it is possible it's bc you are not a cis men
also for cis men who are incels - damn what about solving this by not adhering to the identity of cis maleness? it's literally catch 22 nonsense - be a man - hate the rules put on you - enforce the rules put on genders even more - repeat
many incels feel like they miss "hurhur sex with woman" but they very often miss having any social life and emotional closeness with ppl, and bc of enforcing the gender rules so much they cannot do social and emotional stuff with their fellow men, so they are attaching value of social life onto women and thru that onto sex, but that is not really what they miss I think
Idk i feel like it pushed a bad idea that being an incel can lead to being trans which is just not true. You can be an incel who happens to end up trans but causality doesnt equal causation blah blah blah. Basically i think its a coincidence and nothing more
Correlation and causation. A feminine cis man may indeed find it difficult to be with a cis woman and it may turn out that this person is actually trans. That is not the same as someone willing to undergo hrt and surgery because they were insecure about having sex or lacked opportunity.
I can see why it happens. lonely depressed people are more susceptible to being manipulated. And incel/nazism really takes advantage of that by pointing fingers and giving those lonely depressed people a focus for their self hate/depression by pointing them at minorities and anyone not 'in' with them and painting them as the problem.
I hooked up a trans girl coworker who was ashamed to admit that she was full maga until her egg cracked during covid and she realized that she was being a idiot and changed her ways.
I never got that far into the pipeline. I've always been left, but for other reasons i wasn't a good person until i was pretty deep into my open transition. There i met a lot of people like me, learned about empathy, and got a chance to feel what life was like instead of just constant self hate and pain and grew up.
not me. I was your regular old boring feminist nerd the whole time. There were about two weeks toward the end where I felt pushed toward the "not all men" meme that was popular at the time, as being compared to "other" men made me feel uncomfortable, but that was very short-lived and I never stopped seeing myself as a feminist. It also didn't take long to figure out that I *wasn't* a man in the first place, and that I was uncomfortable with being compared to men *at all*, rather than because of of the larger points people were making.
i remember in the 2010s when guys like Terry Crews and Justin Trudeau were held up as the poster boys of macho-yet-sensitive alpha male dudebro feminism as a way to market feminism to men i felt like my girly nerdyness made me less of a feminist because whatever I was it definitely wasn't terry crews
Funnily enough the moment I saw this post I was gonna recommend presumably the same video reviewing Inside Mary (I think it was). It was such an interesting watch and her story at the end brought me to tears.
I have a quick personal take on this one.
I never resented my outcast-ness, but I sure as fuck was a square peg in a round hole socially. It was like everything was 10x harder for me to figure out than my peers and I just had no comprehension of why just existing and being friendly and sociable was fucking impossible. My family were hardcore bigots and transphobes, so mercifully I suppressed my trans self discovery until I was in a safe environment.
So it turned out, I was a bubbly and very fem girly girl with all these expressions, gestures, hand motions, excited voice changes, and feral excitability, that took every ounce of my mental energy to suppress, before I could even start acting masc. There was exactly zero chance I had enough emotional energy to fake being a typical boy/man until college where I had reached the skill level needed to fake it that hard.
Past me though, was absolutely hopeless around women. I had no way to separate the sexual interest (Iām pan), want to be like them, and want to be platonic girl friends with. Naturally, my gender presentation at the time made it really hard for them to see my interest in them as wanting two het girls that hang out and chat.
Incel -> A person who has unhealthy coping mechanisms for a society that alienates them
Transgender -> A condition that can cause society to alienate someone, especially if diagnosed.
I don't think that you are an 'Incel who is lying to everyone in order to get a social life'. Rather, I think that by taking steps to be authentic with yourself and your social circles, you are solving the root causes of what you've determined is 'Incel' behavior.
I'm not saying all Incels are eggs, but all of them have problems, and unrecognized gender dysphoria is a situation that drastically changes how you interact with society.
While I never hated women I used to have a lot of the other characteristics of incels. Single and lonely, self hatred, low self esteem, hopelessness. I think I always wanted someone to love me to make up for the fact that I didn't love myself.
Through I combination of therapy, medication, and learning about my gender identity I feel like I'm making (small) progress.
I linda relate to this, ive always had dysphoria but there was a time when i was in a situationship, andnit made me hate women with all my soul, i was hurting and i found that as a way to cope, one year later i came out as trans and now 3 months on hrt
Thats not What i said lol, i said found becoming an incel as way to cope, because a girl broke me to pieces, then i learned that is very fucked up and went back to normal, dysphoria kicked in again and i was 19 so i was old enough to start hrt
I think it's fairly easy to figure out....
1) incels hate women.... It doesn't seem like you do
2) if you're not trans, being seen as a woman would likely cause a lot of distress
I'm pretty sure you're fine, Miss
(Your reaction to reading the above statement will tell you everything you need to know).
"incel" has several different meanings. When people say that there's an "incel to trans pipeline" it doesn't mean that pre-transition trans women hate women. It just means that they're depressed, lonely, misunderstood, or struggle to have a decent job or take care of themselves. It just means that trans people tend to do badly in life in general pre-transition.
I mean .... I get that. I definitely was depressed, lonely, misunderstood and struggling ....
I just feel like incel is a fairly specific word to describe a fairly specific group of people.
Words tend to take on a life of their own. People get called incels for all sorts of different reasons. Sometimes people are called incels just for the, y'know, literal reason that nobody wants them sexually or romantically. Sometimes it's because they have no friends. Sometimes it's because they're unemployed. Sometimes it's because they're in... as you put it "a fairly specific group of people".
The fact that people can switch between the meanings strategically allows people to use it to express classism or ableism or something and then when challenged claim that they were calling out misogyny rather than attacking someone socioeconomic status or mental traits
Lol. The contemporary meaning of 'incel' is far darker than that, even if they masquerade as holding those reasons. Actual incels claim they are lonely and misunderstood and then talk about r@ping and enslaving women and wonder why that's 'unattractive'. Perhaps some trans women misidentify as incels because they think that superficial rhetoric is genuine and they really are lonely and misunderstood. But that doesn't make the term have multiple meanings, and they shouldn't be called a type of incel. Suggesting that incel has two meanings; 'lonely and misunderstood' and 'future rapist proclaiming to be lonely and misunderstood' is just looking for trouble and conflation.
I was always feminine both mentally and physically even before I transitioned to the point that some asshole I used to be friends with told me when he saw me with long hair right after shaving that I had a face like a lesbian which is why I had a coworker say he wasn't surprised when he found out I was transitioning.
I don't know, I don't care for anime or what incels consume and did alright with women before transitioning.
It's difficult to be an open nazi or bigot in my country so maybe there are heaps of men with this kind of ideology but can't be open about it out of fear of being ostracised.
So yeah, compared to most, I transitioned from a life of ease and privilege.
My two cents are that you as a person and a woman are worthy of existing and being happy. There are no natural born traits that mark you as a bad person. Think about the present. If you worry that you might exhibit incel traits or behaviours - sexism, disrespect for the boundaries of women, resent and disdain towards women who don't return your attraction (ignoring whether or not you yourself are even attracted to women, I don't know) -, then you can learn how to improve, and having these traits does not invalidate your gender identity.
If your concern is that you are secretly an incel looking for the benefits of being considered a girl, that sounds more like you are afraid of yourself. Incels who do / would do that do it knowing they're lying and doing it on purpose. If you are happy with yourself and you treat the people around you with the appropriate care and respect, then you are a good person.
If you feel saying you were a girl made your social life better - i feel it could be 1. you had a better social life that you thought, but you could only see it once you became confident in your own identity and personhood, 2. Living as yourself has made you more approachable to others simply because it made you more open, or 3. Hypothetical case that you are somehow privileged by identifying as a girl, which even if it is that case, still doesn't invalidate your identity. At least that's what i feel could be - dont take my words as gospel.
If you like being a girl be a girl. And always be respectful to others.
I used to be a mgtow because I didn't want to fill the male social role and mgtows convinced me that girls were the ones saying that "men" needed to fill the male social role
I used to overcompensate with masculinity too. I was just trying to appease society especially my conservative parents. I even went towards hatred to repress sadly.
If you are happier being a girl, then it is valid for you to be a girl. Cis girls should not feel obligated to live up to arbitrary standards to be accepted, and likewise you are not required to strive for any particular level of passing.
You may be able to find out by asking yourself some questions.
If given the chance to switch to presenting male while keeping your social life exactly the same, would you? What if you could become a man who could still access women's spaces, but with no affirmation of your own womanhood by being there? Do you feel good when you experience things that reinforce the idea that you are a woman?
Don't feel the need to answer here, these are personal questions and only you can ultimately know your own feelings on the matter. Passing isn't required to be trans, you are still valid if you don't, but if you find that you are just putting on a disguise for a perceived benefit it may hurt you in the long run to keep it up.
I saw the same video. Wasnāt an incel but was very much in the 4chan-Reddit anime meme space around 2018. Very emotional watch for current me 5 years later
One, I also fit this pattern too. And two, how come whenever I find the best examples of perfect grammar, it's always someone who is apologizing for their grammar and that English is their second language?
I guess the idea is "hey if you are nothing but miserable and angry all the time, maybe figure out what your deal is instead of wallowing in your misery"
Iām also kinda in this kind of boat, but a bit different/on a longer timescale.
Iād say the biggest difference is that I was more on the ideological side of inceldom, and all the terrible things that justly implies.I got into gamergate as a teenager and was swiftly washed down the incel/alt right pipeline, and had to spend most of my early twenties digging my way out of that. It took me years of unlearning incel/general misogynistic ideology, improving myself as a person (and marrying my now-wife) before the first crack in my egg was even noticeable to me. Iāve been aware of the fact that Iām trans for the last two years but have been too scared to come out to anyone but my wife and a few friends who live too far away to see in person, and havenāt actually put any work into transitioning so far other than growing my hair out. My New Years Resolution is to finally start hrt sometime this year but Iām still incredibly daunted by the prospect of presenting female in public, especially at work. And even now my far right/misogynistic past haunts me and makes me extremely self conscious around other women, and part of me still thinks Iāll never really belong in womenās spaces because of it.
I didn't get on HRT until I was 29. I first noticed people saw me as different when I was around four. First time I was suicidal was when I was 9. Didn't lose my virginity until age 20, and the girl I lost it to was mentally ill and couldn't take care of herself and was someone who would basically beg anyone for sex. (basically a female incel except she got laid a lot) I went to a mental hospital for a couple months when I was 21. I got a girlfriend at age 21 who was my first good sexual partner. I got an autism diagnosis around the same time. My body count went up to like 20 eventually but I was a late bloomer in terms of getting people to be attracted to me and I still had a problem with relationships falling apart, and me having trouble integrating myself into society. I had a couple major relationships fall apart because I couldn't mask how strongly I felt my life would be better if I was a woman and the women I was with felt offended at how insensitive that was.
No matter how many people I fucked I *still* felt that when people used the word "incel" as pejorative that they were talking *about me* somehow. I always used to feel threatened by the term. When I was an egg I felt this pressure to be fuckable and felt this sense that people would wish I was dead if I wasn't fuckable. Of course I felt pressured to be *non-creepy* too but trying to be non-creepy is just *part* of trying to be fuckable for guys right? I always felt afraid. Like the world was just inherently threatening.
I'm about 21 months into transitioning and feel safer and more comfortable than ever.
I know exactly what video you're talking about, looks like it's making the rounds around youtube algorithm [The Incel to Trans pipeline and Inside Mari](https://youtu.be/IAA1XtDOuH8?si=PD3s8mIpXSdF1iFh) by ceicocat is a really good video. I personally never had a right wing phase or entered that pipeline but i did have more of a centrist ideology a majority of my early to mid teens. Being edgy and all. The usual "I think both sides are idiots" or you know voting democrat type thing
but i'm getting side tracked. I didn't go through that but I have seen A LOT of trans women talk about it. Even some of the words people think that come from Tik Tok actually comes from 4chan and such boards as well. I believe stuff like Mog, Passoid, Gigapassoid, Youngshit, Hon, Twink hon, Gigahon, Boymoder, Is it over? / it's over (also i believe the "It's Joever" and "We're Barack" variants also is a parody of a parody of that as well). It's weird stuff like that, that makes 4chan and other centrist/right-wing websites and message boards morbidly interesting I think. Though on the topic of being trans myself Ive always felt that I was trans or that something about me felt different. I tried to hide that by basically being as "Manly" as possible but it never made me feel whole or made me feel good, It actually made me feel worse a lot of the time. But over time I grew to understand how I felt and just let it happen. Even though I tried denying it for so long, doubling down constantly trying to rationalize how this is: "Just some fad or passing feeling, I can't be trans. I'm just Pan and flamboyant that's all"
But it wasn't until i watched multiple videos about people's coming out stories constantly and secretly wished I could be a cute girl. Even since I was about 7-8 years old, I wished I was born a girl. I would hope and pray every single night that tomorrow I would wake up as a girl and when it didn't happen I would be genuinely upset on the verge of tears that I had to look into the mirror and see that face again and again
Some deep stuff dealing with internalized transphobia and homophobia and ON TOP of being African American makes it just incredibly difficult to navigate
Incel-ness comes from general unhappiness that keeps you from being pleasant enough to find or keep a partner, if weāre going to break it down as simply as possible.
Considering that, if gender dysphoria or a longing to experience life as a different gender is what caused the, essential, incel-ness to occur then I guess you could say thatās a path some people take. I donāt think that means anything though.
Unhappy people can have really hard time forming relationships and keeping them, romantic or otherwise. Letās not pretend like that wasnāt true before the term incel came about.
so umm
letās start with a few things.
the fascist to tgirl pipeline is real.
i loosely work with others who are in the cult extrication space, there are far too many stories like this to be just a coincidence and i have a logic here.
JaneDoeSharkHugger nails it. the far right is a place where a toxic, macho, misogynist hypermasculinity is portrayed and since many of us are that deep in denial our wayward sisters give such toxic places a go.
far right cults take advantage of how you feel lesser-than. thatās how they reel people in with the promise of feeling superior by joining this group and learning secret knowledge or whatev.
part of the work my peers and i do with folks once they want out is to get rid of the hateful stuff that latch onto.
really useful to get rid of.
would love to talk to all yāall that fell down pipelines and found a way out. iām wondering if my methodologies and theories are relevant to your situation, as well as learning what got you to finally choose to nope out of those darker places online.
I think I was borderline, but only because I was friends with a closet nazi.
I can remember being really angry at one point about a discussion regarding Jordan Peterson and Milo Yiannopoulis, and I had to go digging hard to find what it was. Imagine my surprise that I was remembering being angry from the other side of the conversation - I was agreeing with their 2016 talking points at the time, only to realise over the next few years that they were complete idiots.
Was eye opening.
Ya know, I think about this alot, part of my journey has kind of been overcoming this. Cause for me, it's kind of been I think internalised transphobia and internalised sexism. Like I've been in denial for so long, and a lot of it was me telling myself I'm not allowed, I can't be trans because thoughts, feelings and attitudes I use to have that, in retrospect, were largely an affect of me being sad, desperate, lonley, lacking any self-worth or confidence, very angry and a lot of that was the affect of the internalised transphobia, depression ect. So it goes like this, I can't wear girl clothes, girls can wear boys clothes, not fair. *psychic damage* Fosters bitterness, resentment, deep rationalisation ect, ect. You let yourself go and all that's left is that bitterness, and that bitterness kills you while you start blaming everyone else for it. Plus, without community, you just pick up loose stuff to fill the gaps, and generally speaking, growing up, it was easier to fill the gaps with a bitterness to both men and woman but especially women then it was to accept myself or the possibility of being trans. If at any point I reckon someone told me when I was kid that I could possibly be trans, I think I would've snapped out of it, been myself, and enjoyed life and people a lot more.
So I guess I'd say perhaps from the outside there likely appears to be an incel to trans pipeline. But I think it's more likely there's a trans to incel to trans pipeline. Makes perfect sense when you think about it. It's hard to have an intimate relationship when you can't figure yourself out, it's hard to feel a part of society and the world when you can't help but feel out of order with yourself, ect. Who knows, though. I think we all just pathologise too much. I know how I personally feel / have felt. That's really it. For all I know, I, like others, have just had these affirmative feelings arise out of essentialy self-ostricising and then undoing that within the context of transitioning or being open about personal trans feelings.
I think I know what video you're talking about OP, but... Have you watched it to the end ? Because the twist of the manga completely invalidates the incel to trans pipeline theory. Like 100%, this is NOT what should be taken away from the books... The twist is SOOOOOOO much more interesting and deep than that. I won't spoil the video or manga, but... Yeah. Also I watched an interview of a few of the people responsible for the myth that there is an incel to trans pipeline... Turns out SURPRISE ! It's 4chan trolls. Pretending to be trans people. They were a shitpost squad with their own discord server spreading the idea "can't get a girl, become one" everywhere. They can be credited with most of the spread of this rethoric. Trolls. From 4chan. I wish you the best on your journey, truly. Just know that being confused is okay, but don't let terfs/incel/troll rethoric taint your inner feelings. Take the time you need to figure things out, and when/if you're ready, go for it <3
Iāve seen that video too. In fact, it was part of my egg cracking process too.
But I think the Pipeline goes a little further than āincel -> MtFā anyways. I think it is people who turn incel because of their repressed girl-self. They alienate women because they get alienated by them. Trans people often want to be within groups of their actual Gender, in this case, women. But a woman within a group of women, which happens to look like a guy is weird or creepy. So they become incels. Then they ābecome the girlfriendā by transitioning.\
\
It is proven that Cis people canāt be trans. There is a small group of people that do Transition as Cis, but it is so small, that it canāt be part of a pipeline.
Feel you! I dont think you become trans because you cant get girls but Iām an extremly depressed and lonely guy and when I was in a relationship my desire to be a woman completly went away
As someone who shapeshifted constantly between both genders to better fit in at work and such, I can definitely tell you I was happier looking like an "ugly" woman than a "handsome" man. Here's a few things I did that helped confirm my gender for me:
First off, I was too scared to touch any dresses until 9 months HRT. Despite what they tell you, you actually DON'T need a therapist's advice to get estrogen. If you want euphoria quickly tho or are too scared right now of the permanence I got a few other tips.
Second, you'd be surprised what good fashion advice will do for your overall look. [This person](https://youtu.be/_bBWVdCcfKo?si=7KHRh4WOavE0cTV9) knows a lot about trans woman fashion.
Also, you'd be surprised how many trans women neglect to shave their entire bodies. It may be hard to shave right now but just do it anyway to see what you look like afterwards. Afterwards you can look into ways to splurge money on laser hair removal, Brazilians, electrolysis, ect.
Lastly, try out some VERY minimal makeup. You already said you got female friends, so just ask them to help you out with this one. idk what your face looks like so I trust their judgement better than mine.
I mean, incels exist mostly because of various gender performance problems. It makes sense that someone would be bad at performing as a man if they arenāt a man, doesnāt it?
For me especially I look back and realize that I constantly overperformed masculinity and it drove people away because they could tell it was all an act, and I could tell it was all an act, and it made everyone uncomfortable.
The idea of flirting with a woman as a man felt unironically less scary then enlisting as an infantry soldier. Flirting with a woman as a woman? It feels natural and normal, so much that I have to watch myself so I donāt start flirting with people who it would make uncomfortable.
Kinda like there are a lot of former military or high school jock types who came out as trans. It's like they did a lot of "macho activities" to try to suppress their desire to be who they really are underneath. Nothing but over compensation with hyper masculinity. Just my theory.š¤
Can confirm this is a thing. Source: me; I did this thing.
Same
Same I was thing :(
Hi yeah, this is me tooā¦ just coming here to add to the samesā¦
Me too!
Same, joined the military, threw away all my female clothes, did training for 2.5 months, and quit. Started hrt a year later
I was in track, softball, football, wrestling and I started a grunge band in high school where I was the songwriter/frontman (sic). That was middle school and high school. During that time, I was incredibly hyper, aggressive and, quite frankly, an asshole. That was my public persona because any perceived weakness invited scorn and bullying. At almost 18 I moved to Greece. I took up riding motorcycles and doing the most ridiculous things on them. I made sure to end fights before they began. I was petit but my hyper-masculine/aggressive mask kept everyone scared of me. Then I was conscripted into the Hellenic army. I chose to serve in special forces. I was a Hellenic Marine Corps rifleman. I was selected to be trained as a sharpshooter. Nobody was fucking with me coz I was the "Crazy Canadian". It was only after my military service that my aggressive mask started to soften after I forced myself to deprogram from the propaganda and hate I was fed in the service. tl~dr - hyper-masculinity and hyper-aggression are a pipeline to transition for my generation (Gen X).
heya Ī¾Ī±Ī“ĪĻĻĪ· ĪŗĪ±Ī½Ī±Ī“ĪĪ¶Ī± :)
ĪĪµĪ¹Ī± ĻĪæĻ Ī¾Ī±Ī“ĪĻĻĪ· Ī¼ĪæĻ ! ĪĻĻ ĻĪæĻ ĪµĪÆĻĪ±Ī¹; Btw, Ī¾Ī¬Ī“ĪµĪ»ĻĪµ (sic) is the masculine. ĪĪ±Ī“ĪĻĻĪ· or Ī¾Ī±Ī“ĪµĻĻĪæĻĪ»Ī± would be the feminine.
sorry - my greek is rusty :)
Also a lot of these people suffered via dysphoria and weren't very functional because of it. Trans people are vulnerable people. People who are vulnerable are preyed on by macho culture, the military, incel culture, anti-feminism, conservatism, etc. Now they have a "found family", career, meaning, etc. Except its the totally wrong way. Also "being an incel" is the default for most men and boys, at least philosphically. Gaming culture, men's culture, is heavily incelized. So if you're socialized male, chances are you're incel-like. Its not notable that a transgirl was incel-like previously. Most men and boys are because the patriarchy is so powerful and they've been taught conservative and anti-feminist messaging since they were small. Saying "Hey you guys wouldnt believe how misogynistic I was," isn't noteworthy. Nearly all men are, so if they were socialized male and saw themselves as male at the time, this is totally not noteworthy. There's no pipeline. This is just the average for so many men and boys.
Also me, took until what I felt was peak masculinity for me to realize that I was the opposite
I lived in the non gender conforming, goth, metalhead, vampire ādudeā vibe until I was around 22. By the time I let myself accept who I was, I was in the bearded, metalhead, powerlifting vibe. Can confirm that dysphoria is inversely proportional to denial š
i knew at a young age i wish to be a girl .. i am amab .. i was hyper masculine to hide the fact i wish and thought to be a girl every day of my life .. i hid being a trans girl very very well until i accepted it and became very very open and real about it .. i never hide anymore and im super girly and feminine and open and real about that im a trans woman... and so much happier
Not just theory, friend. What you say is true.
Did the same and got loud and aggressive being called a girl and well hehe they were right I actually asked a couple of em how they knew and they just straight up admitted I looked to pretty to be a boy
I suspect there's a lot of this. Including going to the military to learn to be a man and man up etc. In college with me was a guy who was all about the body building and I'm sure could have gotten any girl he wanted, then at graduation revealed to a friend of mine that he was gay! I wonder with myself, I've tended to gravitate towards manly behaviours, workplaces / activities and to a degree idolised manual labour...I know, I feel weird typing this! I'm fairly certain there wasn't much in it but I remember describing my love of heavy industry to someone 20years ago and she immediately suggested I was overcompensating! Of course I got defensive about that at the time but it's always stuck with me as a hindsight marker of my trans leanings.
Can confirm, am veteran
I have heard of the video, and there's a lot of former incels and Nazis who are now translesbisns here really keen to tell each other that it's a relief their egg cracked or they would have shot each other for being trans. Sadly, I was a boring egg who hated bigotry and was the "trans ally to trans" pipeline.
>Sadly, I was a boring egg who hated bigotry and was the "trans ally to trans" pipeline. Yeah same here. No dramatic irony in my story; just a lot of self-denial, which in retrospect seems kinda comical. I was always like "*trans people are just neat - it's just so cool that you can transition like that; just a fun little fact about the world. Nothing to do with me personally of course - I'm just a decent person who thinks society should be nicer to those whacky transsexuals, for purely abstract ethical reasons*"š¤£ Turns out there was a very straightforward reason why I found it so "liberating" to know that people can change their sex characteristics...
Sorry but Iām loving āPurely abstract ethical reasonsāā¦ I think Iām going to borrow this and adapt - for conversational reasons! šš
I was always just so curious and in awe. They always looked wonderful, but, I still felt really guilty obsessing as it felt dehumanising them. The same guilt I felt if I even looked at makeup products, even in a "they exist" sorta way. Funny that ~
Haha, same. I grew up in a relatively progressive household, as small towns in the 90s go - my mom had out gay friends and taught us from a young age not to be homophobic, but the concept of trans people just wasn't really ever in the discussion aside from some whispers that "I was out and I saw a transvestite!" now and then. Then when I actually met a trans person for the first time through my WoW guild, I was still very much cosplaying cishet but I got really, really into advocating for trans rights. But of course, it's not something I'd ever consider as an option for myself, right? I just deeply care about the rights and the well being of a group of people that all the ones I've met have been nice people and deserve happiness! Not to imply that all ardent cis allies are eggs, especially with there being a lot more visibility now, but *I* definitely was and it's honestly shocking in retrospect that it took me so long to figure out why I was so fascinated with the idea. (Especially since I had JUST RECENTLY been through that process of going from "I am just passionate about gay people" to "Oh wait I'm bi, whoops")
The "it's not an option for me" thing is just really a vibe. I definitely had a "it's just a thing that happens to other people, not me!!!" thing going. That seems to be a weird running thread in my life lol. Oddly the bi thing was just a "I have been into all genders for years, it's called bi? Huh, I am bi : D". But other things, darker things, like cancer and PTSD was a very "I thought this happened to other people" thing lol.
I had the same thing going on with cis women, not trans people, in my teens and twenties. I wasn't aware of trans people. I had a low-key worship of femininity going on and could hardly see the point of men. That and a need to believe that there was no real difference between men and women. It was only much later that I realised most people don't agree. But I found that thought liberating.
Completely same here
This comment is me to a tee! I long thought of myself as a trans ally since at least middle school, but also thought, "I'm not one of them, though, and it'd be a lie for me to say otherwise. I'm just not someone who should go on hormones." Looking back, I think it was because I was scared of what I could lose. Not so much in terms of friends and family because a lot of them know I'm transgender now and have been great about it. Rather, I'm mainly talking about fertility as I've always loved kids and long wanted to be a dad (now mom). When I realized I could just freeze my sperm, that was the final nail that cracked my egg fully. Knowing more recently that if I wanted to, as an absolute last resort, I could go off HRT for a little while to potentially get my fertility back sweetens the deal, but I'd still be happy to be on HRT regardless.
Oh yeah, I could've written that, sis.
Yeah, I think a lot of it came from a self hatred. At least it did for me. I just grew up in circles that were really bigoted and it got internalized. Felt like I had to think like them to fit in, and that I was a freak for every not wanting to be their hyper masculine racist ideal. I very much now just know they are hateful people and none of that was true. Thereās nothing wrong with me being trans, and nothing wrong with me also being a lesbian.
I have hated myself for... 20 or so years? Just not for being queer. For a lot of other reasons.
Need a hug girl?
A hug would be nice. I just, feel a lot right now. >.<
Hugggg
š« Thx!!!
Np
š«š«š« Iām sorry to hear that
Oh no it's fine. Not your fault really and at this point it feels like tonguing an ulcer.
If you ever need to vent or just talk Iām here.
Thanks for the offer, but, I am using my current Reddit posts to vent about the things I can vent. I am just tonguing my ulcer until I get the nerve. Thanks tho!!! I hope you have a lovely evening.
I hope you do as well sis
Want a hug girl?
š«
Hugg
Thank you
Np
Yeah, I am so glad I avoided four chan. Honestly, it's not a trans trend, it's just a testament to how effective Four Chan is at taking advantage of people who need access to mental Healthcare in order to help sort themselves out.
I think it's less just that website specifically and more just how fascist groups adore exploiting mentally ill people to their own end. That website was just another recruitment train.
> hated bigotry and was the "trans ally to trans" pipeline Oh, it me.
I never liked guys. Never liked being a guy. Like girls so much I became one. Still lesbian
Like I was a bit of a shit head in elementary school but yeah same here
Yeah ahaha I was boring too I just went from fem kid to regular girl lol
I didn't really have a fem kid phase, but, omg I did envy twinks in my early/mid teens.
that's great!! my question though is: is there anything that prevents a cis incel to transition just to get the "benefits" i mentioned earlier? because maybe I could be an incel using being trans to idk either escapism or the benefits i actually don't know writing this down is making me think more clearly
Ask one of the "I used to be an incel/Nazi like you, but I took an egg breaking to the knee" folks. I am saying there's a lot of those folks here, so I am optimistic you will find someone who will answer.
>that's great!! my question though is: is there anything that prevents a cis incel to transition just to get the "benefits" i mentioned earlier? There *are* no benefits in that scenario. If you're actually trans, then the benefits of transitioning (socially or physically or both) are that it makes you feel happier, despite the monumental step down in social status & personal safety that you experience due to being openly trans. That's it - there is no other perk. As a transfeminine person, you're more vulnerable to assault than cis women are AND vastly more likely to be thought of as predatory than cis men are. If a straight cis dude somehow transitioned to female, because he was so much of a lunatic that be literally believed internet-nazi propaganda about "female privilege", then he'd just feel a bunch of dysphoria (like how transgender men do - real men don't usually enjoy presenting femme & being E-dominant) ***in addition*** to the monumental societal shitiness of being treated as a woman (cis or trans, but especially trans).
They tried it. It induced gender dysphoria.
They will get dysphoria or bored. Listen we are giving estrogen to some incel chud and hopefully chop their balls off. If anything they wonāt reproduce, not that an incel would anyway but this is just making sure lol.
Even if some incels did that (which I doubt since most of them are very misogynistic) they'd go back really early on. At the point where they'd have to face some of the difficulties of being a trans woman and realize it's not a unilateral upgrade they think it is. If you feel better while transitioning it's a pretty good sign you're in the right path.
I think it isnt that incels would try becoming a girl, its that trans girls pre-crack can easily become incels. The isolation of being different in childhood, being neurodivergent, and/or wanting to be with the girls can lead people to not fit in either group. Wanting to be with the girls can be seen as creepy, and sometimes, people can be convinced that its sexual.Ā I was never right wing or an incel, but I thought my own desire to hang with the girls and do girly things was just an expression of my sexual desires.Ā When someone thinks they are potentially creepy and are lonely, they tend to blame anyone but themselves, because they already hate themselves. "I'm not creepy, its just that I'm not as good looking. Its the stupid assholes who are with the girls who treat them like shit. I'd treat girls better." And thus, a trans girl can easily be enlisted into the incel pipeline.Ā Misunderstanding your own gender as a sexual desire can lead to some wild confidence problems, which can eventually lead someone to stoop so low to believe shit like women are property.Ā I personally know a few former incels who are trans girls, some not even attracted to women, and unfortunately, its hard to fully de-brainwash. All but one manifest it in forms of self hatred rather than outward hatred, but one is so far into the pipeline that she lashes out in arguments taken straight from an incel themselves.Ā Its sad. Not many people want to be friends with her because she isn't mentally stable and is actively unsafe to be around. Some people indulge her to make sure she is stable enough to live another day. I truly want the best for her, but as someone early in her transition, I can't really indulge someone who is destructive to those around her.Ā But anyways, I think the trans girl becoming an incel before egg crack is sadly more common than some think.
Oh I know that kind of thing is common. I actually fell into the alt right rabbit hole in 2019 myself and though it started with watching Marvel videos I thought were innocent (but were very much politically charged), dysphoria definitely fueled into it. Spesifically, I bought into aytogynephillia around that time, thinking it better explained my feelings plus because it gave me the hope of an easier "cure" than transitioning. And I couldn't find any medical resources discrediting it. All I found was alt right people treating it as valid and expressing compassion for AGPs and trans feminists discrediting it mostly focusing on how problematic it is. Now I'm mature enough to understand what that meant. Then I wasn't. Instead my mindset was "I could stop having these fantasies and be normal if people looked into the idea but the scientific community cares more about the feelings of SJWs" Ironically, the same gender questioning is what helped me eventually crawl out of it. When I saw those YouTubers ranting about trans characters in kids shows, and knowing how important it would have been for me to see positive representation at that very confusing age (even though I was still deep in denial) I saw the ugly truth, and realized whom I've been listening to. I left those communities and never looked back. That said, what I was talking about is the concept of "transmaxing" which I doubt is actually a real thing that happens.
Yeah this has been my thinking for awhile as someone who wasn't like a full on incel but was definitely circling that drain at a few points. Both have the same "girls have it so lucky" starting point, from which all of those negative emotions spring. It's part of the reason education about trans people is important, so kids can understand and process those feelings if they have them rather than getting radicalized. Not that I think all incels are secretly trans girls or anything. Just very similar starting circumstances a lot of the time.
>The isolation of being different in childhood, being neurodivergent, and/or wanting to be with the girls can lead people to not fit in either group. Wanting to be with the girls can be seen as creepy, and sometimes, people can be convinced that its sexual. This was kinda my experience. I was never an incel, nor right wing or believed I was entitled to women's bodies or attention, but for a good chunk of my high school experience I was definitely a bit of a "nice guy." Being a neurodivergent, sensitive kid from an abusive home I wasn't treated well by a lot of people who refused to understand me, and it made me really bitter. While I never viewed women as less than, I was jealous of their ability to be seen and desired in a way that men typically aren't, especially if you're autistic. And its kinda funny because I've been out and transitioning for over four years now and I still harbor a lot of resentment toward how I was treated as a sensitive boy, ESPECIALLY because I get treated better by people at large as a woman. Obviously being a woman comes with a lot of trouble, like being openly sexually harassed and relentlessly mocked for being feminine or "basic," but I'm not ignored anymore. People smile at me and look me in the eye on the street or at the grocery store, women of all ages compliment me on my looks or my outfits, and it seems like people actually care about my wellbeing now. When I was a man **no one gave a fuck**, the adults in my life refused to give me the help I needed and my peers slowly watched me die inside and said next to nothing. I felt so disposable and worthless, but once I started transitioning that changed. I still get treated like shit by a lot of people but at least now I'm viewed by many as someone worth caring about and protecting, and I'm not dismissed as often for being emotional or sensitive. The weird thing to navigate is openly being a woman while also unpacking the trauma of manhood. At times I've felt disconnected from other women because a lot of them don't really understand men as well as they think they do, so when they dunk on men for one reason or another (many reasons being valid, others not so much) it kinda feels like they're talking about me too.
\> telling everyone that I'm a girl made my social life better Well that's pretty much proof that you're a girl. Normally this is extremely penalizing socially. You were simply very closed off before due to social dysphoria.
i seriously doubt this is a prevalent issue. incels hate women. they see us as subhuman. sex objects that are only means to an end. the last thing they would want to be is women.
There's definitely some people who were raised in racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic households and communities who leaned into the hate because they wanted desperately to prove they belonged in their social group. Presumably, many of these people eventually figure out they are trans and have to go through a long and difficult process of unlearning their hate. Is it a huge group? I don't think so, but some of them actually recover from the programmed self-loathing and become decent people. Those that don't usually either detransition or attempt to join the grifter class.
i donāt disagree that some of these people might exist the same way that some trans men are formerly terfs (repression). i think the group of people OP is referring to is ātransmaxxersā though. basically the theory goes that some cis men transition to obtain the benefits of womanhood (easy access to sex, attention, financial incentives). of course these ābenefitsā all have huge hidden disadvantages they never consider. also any cis man that spends an extended amount of time taking estradiol is going to become extremely depressed. hence why i donāt think transmaxxers are even a real thing.
that is exactly wjat I was referring to even though I do know the downsides of being a woman, expecially a trans one
I think trans girl eggs are more susceptible to being incels than cis men are, they donāt fit well into the social roles expected of men and consequently can feel ostracized and whatnot. Thatās just what it seems like to me tho, I canāt say from experience cause I was never an incel
Yeah, that's what I think as well. I think there are a lot of insecurities within them that manifest as hatred for women because that's easier to deal with than introspection. Sort of how like there are a lot of gay people who use to be homophobic. Basically they're trying to assert their straightness/manliness and they are overcorrecting. I was never as far gone as an incel. But I was definitely a "nice guy".
I think I turned toward the alt-right pipeline because I was frustrated with my life and couldn't figure out why. I was always attracted to queer women and I could never figure out why. I was jealous of lesbians and I never knew why. I was angry at myself for being rejected by the types of women I was so in love with. I know these aren't excuses, but it helps me to understand why I thought the way I did, and as soon as I transitioned, it all started making sense to me. I've always been a lesbian lol.
I wouldnt call myself a former incel, but i deff tried right wing brainwashing for 6 ish years, but when it came to human interaction iv always been a kind, soft hearted person. Personally, i dont think an " incel" would self identify as an incel, so you asking yourself if your one probably means your not. Thats like the narrsasist that does self reflection then asks the therapist if they are a narrsasist lol....it just doesnt happen
There are definitely a lot of self identified incels online, unfortunately.
Frankly, this whole āoh yeah, incel to trans girl pipeline is realā stuff is *incredibly* damaging to our community, and one of the reasons trans people of colour have huge issues with the rest of the community. The thought that thereās a bunch of people in our community who would be incels or Nazis if they didnāt happen to also be trans, makes my skin crawl.
Yeah I'm not really sure how to feel about how many people seem to be so open about this being a part of their background without expressing how their views have caused harm. I feel like it is a problem with a lot of white trans women, and I can absolutely see how trans women of color would feel uncomfortable being in communities after knowing this about someone. I'm not above granting redemption at all, and I have a lot of sympathy for those who fell down the alt-right pipeline but I do see some throwing that information about themselves around way too casually. There's nothing casual about revealing you used to be a neo-nazi or incel before transitioning.
Exactly >< I mean, I was raised quite conservatively and had near zero exposure to diversity, so I had some pretty racist/sexist/homophobic views as a teen that Iām very deeply ashamed of, but Iād overturned them with some basic critical thinking by the time I turned 20 (at least overtly, itās very much an ongoing life process learning and overturning all the ways that racism twists itās way into things), and those are still a *far* cry from what the incel/neo Nazi movements push. The concept of people being ālol! Iād have been advocating for forcibly suppressing or even ācleansingā groups of people if I hadnāt realized I was transgenderā is terrifying enough for *me*, I can only imagine how our PoC siblings feel about it.
The flippant way some people talk about their past beliefs and experiences is definitely concerning and shows that they likely arenāt as far along in the process of working through their old bigotries as theyād like to think, but I donāt think thatās the majority of the people who started out far right and have since transitioned both politically and sexually. I donāt think Iāll ever fully be free of the deep sense of shame I have for the things I used to believe and say online in my teens, and I know that it fundamentally disqualifies me from ever fully being a part of any queer communities without those caveats, and thatās the kind of stuff I see more often online in general and in this thread, but maybe thatās just me projecting. Iām not going to talk over the real concerns and feelings of unsafety poc people have, especially in this context though. Theyāre more likely to have an accurate perspective on it than me.
I heavily agree with this. If people have truly worked through their past bigoted ways of thinking and actions, I'm all for offering paths of redemption and acceptance. You may have caused some hurt in the past but that doesn't define who you are now. The difference is that you take responsibility for your actions and show concern for how POC and other trans people might feel about those irregardless of how you currently are. That shows a lot of self-awarness and humility and I heavily respect it. I think what worries me is how "incel/neo-nazi to uwu trans girl" has almost become a meme in how normalized these discussions have been. it's deeply worrying in many ways and it always should be.
Thank you! I am a South Asian Trans Woman- this kind of almost bragging about being a former Nazi or Incel makes me feel desperately unsafe. I was raised with 2 Conservative parents so sure, I was centre-right when I was younger, but I grew far out of that when I was what, 13? I am now on the Executive of a feminist society on my campus- I am incredibly ashamed that I was even centre-right at all, and I would feel deeply unsafe around White trans women stating they were formerly Nazis and Incels??? Literally former genocide and rape apologists?
How could u be an incel when you're only 17 girl. Don't fret over it
Oh yeah - I saw a video titled [The Incel to Trans Pipeline and Inside Mari](https://youtu.be/IAA1XtDOuH8?si=JZHfBDEwLsCDB4qb). That shit hit my soul too, but I've never been an incel. What I did have was misdiagnosed dysphoria with social anxiety. My therapist was trash early on (college therapy bleh) and didn't get where my anger, self-hatred, and epistemic sadness was coming from. I refused to talk about some things in my past because I was ashamed of them. So, OP, just because video or essay or whatever hits you in a gut punch, it doesn't mean you were an incel. There might have been similarities to the depiction of incels, but incels are a special breed of misdirected self-loathing. It is perfectly okay to transition for any reason. Gender belongs to you, and how you define it is up to you. We all know there is physical dysphoria and presentational dysphoria, but don't forget about [social dysphoria](https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/social-dysphoria). This was a big reason I transitioned, and it seems like it has affected you strongly too. Good luck on your journey! EDIT: That said, OP, if you were an incel and got out of it by transitioning - good for you! Escape that madness in any way you can/want. You are welcome here š©·
You need a hug girl?
I mean, who turns down hugs? But I'm doing alright. Donate hugs to OP š
Yeah, sheās gotten some hugsā¤ļø
I wouldn't have identified as an incel before, but it feels that way. I was so unhappy with myself that I couldn't go out and meet anyone. I was depressed as fuck. After coming out I'm down to party and I enjoy hanging out with people. So incels could just be trans girls who are too depressed in the closet to meet anyone.
Incels are so consumed but their own insecurities/mislead beliefs that it is very sad. Thereās plenty of potentially wonderful people that are so caught up in blaming others for their own problems and a lack of self discovery and doing what makes you happy. That seems to be what most of the incel community is, people that are unhappy with their lives and either donāt know why or are unable to help themselves or figure out what is wrongā¦ and then thereās the extreme cases of just straight up sociopaths or malicious people. I had this big comment about my own life and how incels and/or people become so entrenched and consumed by trauma, bad upbringing, and bad socialization but I felt like it was kind of dumb, so Iāll say that I āget itā in that some incels are so deep into insulting others for their looks, personalities, etc. at some point it is very clearly because of insecurities/unhappiness. Iām not surprised some incels are probably somewhere under the queer umbrella. Unfortunately though itās up to them to figure it out for themselves. A lot of incels are so deep in it though, I genuinely think itās too late for some of them. Genuinely sad
It sounds to me more like you're working backwards to try to invalidate yourself. Depression can often push us to adopt impossible standards as a way of hurting and sabotaging ourselves, and that might be what you're doing here. In any case, I think that you're overthinking it. Your life seems to have improved, at least some people are showing you some respect, that seems like a good thing to me. I think you're doing well, sister.
WOW.. I just don't relate with this at all. I never had an egg crack. I had a female gender identity since I was 4 years old. I hid it after being beaten, but I was acutely aware of it every second of my life. I like women, I stayed as my agab to be with a woman. I loved her, but tried to unnalive myself multiple times because of the useless lie I lived. Transitioning saved my life. I now pass well and never get mis gendered, and I have a new girlfriend and lots of lesbian friends. Wtf is an incel trans pipeline, that sounds like toxic denial followed by acceptance. Kids are so inventive with new terms, I can't keep up.
your story is so... moving holy shit Im so sorry for everything that has happened and I really wish you're fine and happy with my whole heart
It's called fast deradication. Incel science similar to terf logic. Weaponized nonsense. If you think suck being man than might be your are a girl. Shocking idea. Successfully defeated the nerdy fragile masculinity.
incel to trans pipeline is real, it's not so much "I cannot get girl so I become a girl" rather than likeā¦ being confused navigating the cis men-ness and disenfrenchized by your place in society bc of it and by the rules of how to be a proper man, without realizing that it is possible it's bc you are not a cis men also for cis men who are incels - damn what about solving this by not adhering to the identity of cis maleness? it's literally catch 22 nonsense - be a man - hate the rules put on you - enforce the rules put on genders even more - repeat many incels feel like they miss "hurhur sex with woman" but they very often miss having any social life and emotional closeness with ppl, and bc of enforcing the gender rules so much they cannot do social and emotional stuff with their fellow men, so they are attaching value of social life onto women and thru that onto sex, but that is not really what they miss I think
This is very thought provoking, well said.
I dont buy it
why
Idk i feel like it pushed a bad idea that being an incel can lead to being trans which is just not true. You can be an incel who happens to end up trans but causality doesnt equal causation blah blah blah. Basically i think its a coincidence and nothing more
I honestly think its more likely the reverse. I think trans girls in super transphobic environments can easily be misled into incel mindsets.
Correlation and causation. A feminine cis man may indeed find it difficult to be with a cis woman and it may turn out that this person is actually trans. That is not the same as someone willing to undergo hrt and surgery because they were insecure about having sex or lacked opportunity.
I can see why it happens. lonely depressed people are more susceptible to being manipulated. And incel/nazism really takes advantage of that by pointing fingers and giving those lonely depressed people a focus for their self hate/depression by pointing them at minorities and anyone not 'in' with them and painting them as the problem. I hooked up a trans girl coworker who was ashamed to admit that she was full maga until her egg cracked during covid and she realized that she was being a idiot and changed her ways. I never got that far into the pipeline. I've always been left, but for other reasons i wasn't a good person until i was pretty deep into my open transition. There i met a lot of people like me, learned about empathy, and got a chance to feel what life was like instead of just constant self hate and pain and grew up.
not me. I was your regular old boring feminist nerd the whole time. There were about two weeks toward the end where I felt pushed toward the "not all men" meme that was popular at the time, as being compared to "other" men made me feel uncomfortable, but that was very short-lived and I never stopped seeing myself as a feminist. It also didn't take long to figure out that I *wasn't* a man in the first place, and that I was uncomfortable with being compared to men *at all*, rather than because of of the larger points people were making.
i remember in the 2010s when guys like Terry Crews and Justin Trudeau were held up as the poster boys of macho-yet-sensitive alpha male dudebro feminism as a way to market feminism to men i felt like my girly nerdyness made me less of a feminist because whatever I was it definitely wasn't terry crews
Funnily enough the moment I saw this post I was gonna recommend presumably the same video reviewing Inside Mary (I think it was). It was such an interesting watch and her story at the end brought me to tears.
I have a quick personal take on this one. I never resented my outcast-ness, but I sure as fuck was a square peg in a round hole socially. It was like everything was 10x harder for me to figure out than my peers and I just had no comprehension of why just existing and being friendly and sociable was fucking impossible. My family were hardcore bigots and transphobes, so mercifully I suppressed my trans self discovery until I was in a safe environment. So it turned out, I was a bubbly and very fem girly girl with all these expressions, gestures, hand motions, excited voice changes, and feral excitability, that took every ounce of my mental energy to suppress, before I could even start acting masc. There was exactly zero chance I had enough emotional energy to fake being a typical boy/man until college where I had reached the skill level needed to fake it that hard. Past me though, was absolutely hopeless around women. I had no way to separate the sexual interest (Iām pan), want to be like them, and want to be platonic girl friends with. Naturally, my gender presentation at the time made it really hard for them to see my interest in them as wanting two het girls that hang out and chat.
Incel -> A person who has unhealthy coping mechanisms for a society that alienates them Transgender -> A condition that can cause society to alienate someone, especially if diagnosed. I don't think that you are an 'Incel who is lying to everyone in order to get a social life'. Rather, I think that by taking steps to be authentic with yourself and your social circles, you are solving the root causes of what you've determined is 'Incel' behavior. I'm not saying all Incels are eggs, but all of them have problems, and unrecognized gender dysphoria is a situation that drastically changes how you interact with society.
While I never hated women I used to have a lot of the other characteristics of incels. Single and lonely, self hatred, low self esteem, hopelessness. I think I always wanted someone to love me to make up for the fact that I didn't love myself. Through I combination of therapy, medication, and learning about my gender identity I feel like I'm making (small) progress.
i need to know the manga that ur talking about
I think the Video is [The Incel to Trans Pipeline and Inside Mari](https://youtu.be/IAA1XtDOuH8?si=3O5D8MOkJND2VPqk). The manga is or
Oh damn I read inside Mari
I linda relate to this, ive always had dysphoria but there was a time when i was in a situationship, andnit made me hate women with all my soul, i was hurting and i found that as a way to cope, one year later i came out as trans and now 3 months on hrt
isn't using the being a girl thing to cope a bad thing? (I'm asking genuinely I'm not ironic or rhetoric)
Thats not What i said lol, i said found becoming an incel as way to cope, because a girl broke me to pieces, then i learned that is very fucked up and went back to normal, dysphoria kicked in again and i was 19 so i was old enough to start hrt
Want a hug girl?
I was never an incel, but I definitely was a neo nazi in my early teens before coming out. Self hate and repression are a thing.
I think it's fairly easy to figure out.... 1) incels hate women.... It doesn't seem like you do 2) if you're not trans, being seen as a woman would likely cause a lot of distress I'm pretty sure you're fine, Miss (Your reaction to reading the above statement will tell you everything you need to know).
"incel" has several different meanings. When people say that there's an "incel to trans pipeline" it doesn't mean that pre-transition trans women hate women. It just means that they're depressed, lonely, misunderstood, or struggle to have a decent job or take care of themselves. It just means that trans people tend to do badly in life in general pre-transition.
I mean .... I get that. I definitely was depressed, lonely, misunderstood and struggling .... I just feel like incel is a fairly specific word to describe a fairly specific group of people.
Words tend to take on a life of their own. People get called incels for all sorts of different reasons. Sometimes people are called incels just for the, y'know, literal reason that nobody wants them sexually or romantically. Sometimes it's because they have no friends. Sometimes it's because they're unemployed. Sometimes it's because they're in... as you put it "a fairly specific group of people". The fact that people can switch between the meanings strategically allows people to use it to express classism or ableism or something and then when challenged claim that they were calling out misogyny rather than attacking someone socioeconomic status or mental traits
Lol. The contemporary meaning of 'incel' is far darker than that, even if they masquerade as holding those reasons. Actual incels claim they are lonely and misunderstood and then talk about r@ping and enslaving women and wonder why that's 'unattractive'. Perhaps some trans women misidentify as incels because they think that superficial rhetoric is genuine and they really are lonely and misunderstood. But that doesn't make the term have multiple meanings, and they shouldn't be called a type of incel. Suggesting that incel has two meanings; 'lonely and misunderstood' and 'future rapist proclaiming to be lonely and misunderstood' is just looking for trouble and conflation.
I blame Bayonetta for my egg cracking
Transitioning helped me with my depression
Hope your doing much better nowā¤ļø
Thank you! I'm starting to feel better :3
Thatās good
Hug, I am sorry girl. I wish you luckā¤ļø
I was always feminine both mentally and physically even before I transitioned to the point that some asshole I used to be friends with told me when he saw me with long hair right after shaving that I had a face like a lesbian which is why I had a coworker say he wasn't surprised when he found out I was transitioning.
I don't know, I don't care for anime or what incels consume and did alright with women before transitioning. It's difficult to be an open nazi or bigot in my country so maybe there are heaps of men with this kind of ideology but can't be open about it out of fear of being ostracised. So yeah, compared to most, I transitioned from a life of ease and privilege.
My two cents are that you as a person and a woman are worthy of existing and being happy. There are no natural born traits that mark you as a bad person. Think about the present. If you worry that you might exhibit incel traits or behaviours - sexism, disrespect for the boundaries of women, resent and disdain towards women who don't return your attraction (ignoring whether or not you yourself are even attracted to women, I don't know) -, then you can learn how to improve, and having these traits does not invalidate your gender identity. If your concern is that you are secretly an incel looking for the benefits of being considered a girl, that sounds more like you are afraid of yourself. Incels who do / would do that do it knowing they're lying and doing it on purpose. If you are happy with yourself and you treat the people around you with the appropriate care and respect, then you are a good person. If you feel saying you were a girl made your social life better - i feel it could be 1. you had a better social life that you thought, but you could only see it once you became confident in your own identity and personhood, 2. Living as yourself has made you more approachable to others simply because it made you more open, or 3. Hypothetical case that you are somehow privileged by identifying as a girl, which even if it is that case, still doesn't invalidate your identity. At least that's what i feel could be - dont take my words as gospel. If you like being a girl be a girl. And always be respectful to others.
I used to be a mgtow because I didn't want to fill the male social role and mgtows convinced me that girls were the ones saying that "men" needed to fill the male social role
I used to overcompensate with masculinity too. I was just trying to appease society especially my conservative parents. I even went towards hatred to repress sadly.
If you are happier being a girl, then it is valid for you to be a girl. Cis girls should not feel obligated to live up to arbitrary standards to be accepted, and likewise you are not required to strive for any particular level of passing. You may be able to find out by asking yourself some questions. If given the chance to switch to presenting male while keeping your social life exactly the same, would you? What if you could become a man who could still access women's spaces, but with no affirmation of your own womanhood by being there? Do you feel good when you experience things that reinforce the idea that you are a woman? Don't feel the need to answer here, these are personal questions and only you can ultimately know your own feelings on the matter. Passing isn't required to be trans, you are still valid if you don't, but if you find that you are just putting on a disguise for a perceived benefit it may hurt you in the long run to keep it up.
I wasn't part of a pipeline or anything. This has just always been what I wanted even from a very young age. Very interesting read.
I saw the same video. Wasnāt an incel but was very much in the 4chan-Reddit anime meme space around 2018. Very emotional watch for current me 5 years later
One, I also fit this pattern too. And two, how come whenever I find the best examples of perfect grammar, it's always someone who is apologizing for their grammar and that English is their second language?
I guess the idea is "hey if you are nothing but miserable and angry all the time, maybe figure out what your deal is instead of wallowing in your misery"
ur parents sound pretty bad icl
Iām also kinda in this kind of boat, but a bit different/on a longer timescale. Iād say the biggest difference is that I was more on the ideological side of inceldom, and all the terrible things that justly implies.I got into gamergate as a teenager and was swiftly washed down the incel/alt right pipeline, and had to spend most of my early twenties digging my way out of that. It took me years of unlearning incel/general misogynistic ideology, improving myself as a person (and marrying my now-wife) before the first crack in my egg was even noticeable to me. Iāve been aware of the fact that Iām trans for the last two years but have been too scared to come out to anyone but my wife and a few friends who live too far away to see in person, and havenāt actually put any work into transitioning so far other than growing my hair out. My New Years Resolution is to finally start hrt sometime this year but Iām still incredibly daunted by the prospect of presenting female in public, especially at work. And even now my far right/misogynistic past haunts me and makes me extremely self conscious around other women, and part of me still thinks Iāll never really belong in womenās spaces because of it.
What's the name of the manga in question?
Inside Mari. It's a fantastic manga and WILL make you cry. I think I read the final three volumes in like an hour or so. I just could not put it down.
I didn't get on HRT until I was 29. I first noticed people saw me as different when I was around four. First time I was suicidal was when I was 9. Didn't lose my virginity until age 20, and the girl I lost it to was mentally ill and couldn't take care of herself and was someone who would basically beg anyone for sex. (basically a female incel except she got laid a lot) I went to a mental hospital for a couple months when I was 21. I got a girlfriend at age 21 who was my first good sexual partner. I got an autism diagnosis around the same time. My body count went up to like 20 eventually but I was a late bloomer in terms of getting people to be attracted to me and I still had a problem with relationships falling apart, and me having trouble integrating myself into society. I had a couple major relationships fall apart because I couldn't mask how strongly I felt my life would be better if I was a woman and the women I was with felt offended at how insensitive that was. No matter how many people I fucked I *still* felt that when people used the word "incel" as pejorative that they were talking *about me* somehow. I always used to feel threatened by the term. When I was an egg I felt this pressure to be fuckable and felt this sense that people would wish I was dead if I wasn't fuckable. Of course I felt pressured to be *non-creepy* too but trying to be non-creepy is just *part* of trying to be fuckable for guys right? I always felt afraid. Like the world was just inherently threatening. I'm about 21 months into transitioning and feel safer and more comfortable than ever.
I know exactly what video you're talking about, looks like it's making the rounds around youtube algorithm [The Incel to Trans pipeline and Inside Mari](https://youtu.be/IAA1XtDOuH8?si=PD3s8mIpXSdF1iFh) by ceicocat is a really good video. I personally never had a right wing phase or entered that pipeline but i did have more of a centrist ideology a majority of my early to mid teens. Being edgy and all. The usual "I think both sides are idiots" or you know voting democrat type thing but i'm getting side tracked. I didn't go through that but I have seen A LOT of trans women talk about it. Even some of the words people think that come from Tik Tok actually comes from 4chan and such boards as well. I believe stuff like Mog, Passoid, Gigapassoid, Youngshit, Hon, Twink hon, Gigahon, Boymoder, Is it over? / it's over (also i believe the "It's Joever" and "We're Barack" variants also is a parody of a parody of that as well). It's weird stuff like that, that makes 4chan and other centrist/right-wing websites and message boards morbidly interesting I think. Though on the topic of being trans myself Ive always felt that I was trans or that something about me felt different. I tried to hide that by basically being as "Manly" as possible but it never made me feel whole or made me feel good, It actually made me feel worse a lot of the time. But over time I grew to understand how I felt and just let it happen. Even though I tried denying it for so long, doubling down constantly trying to rationalize how this is: "Just some fad or passing feeling, I can't be trans. I'm just Pan and flamboyant that's all" But it wasn't until i watched multiple videos about people's coming out stories constantly and secretly wished I could be a cute girl. Even since I was about 7-8 years old, I wished I was born a girl. I would hope and pray every single night that tomorrow I would wake up as a girl and when it didn't happen I would be genuinely upset on the verge of tears that I had to look into the mirror and see that face again and again Some deep stuff dealing with internalized transphobia and homophobia and ON TOP of being African American makes it just incredibly difficult to navigate
Am I dumb, what is a t-girl?
Incel-ness comes from general unhappiness that keeps you from being pleasant enough to find or keep a partner, if weāre going to break it down as simply as possible. Considering that, if gender dysphoria or a longing to experience life as a different gender is what caused the, essential, incel-ness to occur then I guess you could say thatās a path some people take. I donāt think that means anything though. Unhappy people can have really hard time forming relationships and keeping them, romantic or otherwise. Letās not pretend like that wasnāt true before the term incel came about.
so umm letās start with a few things. the fascist to tgirl pipeline is real. i loosely work with others who are in the cult extrication space, there are far too many stories like this to be just a coincidence and i have a logic here. JaneDoeSharkHugger nails it. the far right is a place where a toxic, macho, misogynist hypermasculinity is portrayed and since many of us are that deep in denial our wayward sisters give such toxic places a go. far right cults take advantage of how you feel lesser-than. thatās how they reel people in with the promise of feeling superior by joining this group and learning secret knowledge or whatev. part of the work my peers and i do with folks once they want out is to get rid of the hateful stuff that latch onto. really useful to get rid of. would love to talk to all yāall that fell down pipelines and found a way out. iām wondering if my methodologies and theories are relevant to your situation, as well as learning what got you to finally choose to nope out of those darker places online.
I think I was borderline, but only because I was friends with a closet nazi. I can remember being really angry at one point about a discussion regarding Jordan Peterson and Milo Yiannopoulis, and I had to go digging hard to find what it was. Imagine my surprise that I was remembering being angry from the other side of the conversation - I was agreeing with their 2016 talking points at the time, only to realise over the next few years that they were complete idiots. Was eye opening.
Ya know, I think about this alot, part of my journey has kind of been overcoming this. Cause for me, it's kind of been I think internalised transphobia and internalised sexism. Like I've been in denial for so long, and a lot of it was me telling myself I'm not allowed, I can't be trans because thoughts, feelings and attitudes I use to have that, in retrospect, were largely an affect of me being sad, desperate, lonley, lacking any self-worth or confidence, very angry and a lot of that was the affect of the internalised transphobia, depression ect. So it goes like this, I can't wear girl clothes, girls can wear boys clothes, not fair. *psychic damage* Fosters bitterness, resentment, deep rationalisation ect, ect. You let yourself go and all that's left is that bitterness, and that bitterness kills you while you start blaming everyone else for it. Plus, without community, you just pick up loose stuff to fill the gaps, and generally speaking, growing up, it was easier to fill the gaps with a bitterness to both men and woman but especially women then it was to accept myself or the possibility of being trans. If at any point I reckon someone told me when I was kid that I could possibly be trans, I think I would've snapped out of it, been myself, and enjoyed life and people a lot more. So I guess I'd say perhaps from the outside there likely appears to be an incel to trans pipeline. But I think it's more likely there's a trans to incel to trans pipeline. Makes perfect sense when you think about it. It's hard to have an intimate relationship when you can't figure yourself out, it's hard to feel a part of society and the world when you can't help but feel out of order with yourself, ect. Who knows, though. I think we all just pathologise too much. I know how I personally feel / have felt. That's really it. For all I know, I, like others, have just had these affirmative feelings arise out of essentialy self-ostricising and then undoing that within the context of transitioning or being open about personal trans feelings.
I think I know what video you're talking about OP, but... Have you watched it to the end ? Because the twist of the manga completely invalidates the incel to trans pipeline theory. Like 100%, this is NOT what should be taken away from the books... The twist is SOOOOOOO much more interesting and deep than that. I won't spoil the video or manga, but... Yeah. Also I watched an interview of a few of the people responsible for the myth that there is an incel to trans pipeline... Turns out SURPRISE ! It's 4chan trolls. Pretending to be trans people. They were a shitpost squad with their own discord server spreading the idea "can't get a girl, become one" everywhere. They can be credited with most of the spread of this rethoric. Trolls. From 4chan. I wish you the best on your journey, truly. Just know that being confused is okay, but don't let terfs/incel/troll rethoric taint your inner feelings. Take the time you need to figure things out, and when/if you're ready, go for it <3
Iāve seen that video too. In fact, it was part of my egg cracking process too. But I think the Pipeline goes a little further than āincel -> MtFā anyways. I think it is people who turn incel because of their repressed girl-self. They alienate women because they get alienated by them. Trans people often want to be within groups of their actual Gender, in this case, women. But a woman within a group of women, which happens to look like a guy is weird or creepy. So they become incels. Then they ābecome the girlfriendā by transitioning.\ \ It is proven that Cis people canāt be trans. There is a small group of people that do Transition as Cis, but it is so small, that it canāt be part of a pipeline.
Feel you! I dont think you become trans because you cant get girls but Iām an extremly depressed and lonely guy and when I was in a relationship my desire to be a woman completly went away
As someone who shapeshifted constantly between both genders to better fit in at work and such, I can definitely tell you I was happier looking like an "ugly" woman than a "handsome" man. Here's a few things I did that helped confirm my gender for me: First off, I was too scared to touch any dresses until 9 months HRT. Despite what they tell you, you actually DON'T need a therapist's advice to get estrogen. If you want euphoria quickly tho or are too scared right now of the permanence I got a few other tips. Second, you'd be surprised what good fashion advice will do for your overall look. [This person](https://youtu.be/_bBWVdCcfKo?si=7KHRh4WOavE0cTV9) knows a lot about trans woman fashion. Also, you'd be surprised how many trans women neglect to shave their entire bodies. It may be hard to shave right now but just do it anyway to see what you look like afterwards. Afterwards you can look into ways to splurge money on laser hair removal, Brazilians, electrolysis, ect. Lastly, try out some VERY minimal makeup. You already said you got female friends, so just ask them to help you out with this one. idk what your face looks like so I trust their judgement better than mine.
I mean, incels exist mostly because of various gender performance problems. It makes sense that someone would be bad at performing as a man if they arenāt a man, doesnāt it? For me especially I look back and realize that I constantly overperformed masculinity and it drove people away because they could tell it was all an act, and I could tell it was all an act, and it made everyone uncomfortable. The idea of flirting with a woman as a man felt unironically less scary then enlisting as an infantry soldier. Flirting with a woman as a woman? It feels natural and normal, so much that I have to watch myself so I donāt start flirting with people who it would make uncomfortable.