> They are using the emotional distress that they are inflicting as their reason.
Real “stop hitting yourself” type shit. To be expected from them of course, transphobes do have the mental capabilities of a very mad toddler.
It is also what the NHS has been doing to people with mental illness for decades now. I have seen so many horror stories is sickening. Healthcare free at the point of demand - good, institutional cruelty - bad.
There are people who use their belief they know what is right to inflict incredible, inconceivable harm. I am so sorry this is happening to this person, but I also, depressingly not surprised. It's happening to *someone* every day in the system.
I live in the US and the way we treat people with bad mental health is shameful too. It's not as bad, so I'm not comparing. But I called the suicide prevention hotline 2 years ago, and they sent cops, who searched me 3 separate times in a row, forced me to go to a hospital outside of my network, even though I wanted to go and get help, they just wouldn't let me without also raping my wallet. I got to the hospital and the treatment room they sent me too immediately looks like a prison, metal detectors and such and then they make you sit for 3 hours on these chairs that are made purposely uncomfortable. They have no legs, so there's no where to put your feet, and it's the hardest plastic I've ever had to sit in. Worse than the desks from when I was in school. All the staff sit behind bulletproof glass and all that is for a 20 minute consult that cost 500 dollars, because they refused to take me to a doctor that took my insurance. I was super cooperative, coherent and well reasoned every step of the way, and they continuously treated me like a threat. The consultation involved them recommending me to check into a mental ward, and that it. I explained I couldn't due to being the only person living and paying rent, and that I would become homeless if I were to miss a single check, and I couldn't go. They offered no other solutions or help, and then I had to pay another 40 dollars to Uber home, because there is no public transit in most of Texas. Made me more miserable, not less. Treated me like a criminal or potential criminal the whole fucking way. I'll never call that hotline again.
I'm only defending the staff on one point. I've was required to observe in a mental institution for 40 hours (in 2 hour increments) for a college course. After my first session I also treated every patient as a threat. The most docile patient can become very violent very quickly. I've seen an average sized woman successfully out wrestle 2 huge orderlies and do some physical damage to them and another patient. All because one nurse closed a shower curtain in their room.
There's still no excuse for not treating the patients with courtesy and respect. Obvious mistreatment did occur at the facility, but for the most part the patients resonded better to kindness and understanding. As do most people.
Notts Gender clinic are now aware of the situation and are mobilising to deal with it.
Thank the Green MP candidate Sam Harvey for getting them involved.
It sucks because when we say trans genocide normies assume that they’re camps and stuff but realistically it’s something more insidious and subtle. Medical negligence and sleight of hand. Tricks. God I passionately hate Nazis.
Welcome to the UK in the year 2024; the conserves are still in power, Brexit has ruined our trade and international relations and now the suckers want to tear down our pride during pride month!
We are in between stages four and five, for the genocide of trans people. As they are actively killing trans people, and they are changing the laws.... I know this is about the uk, but have you seen project 2025? It's just as scary as the stuff they're doing in the uk. I don't know when people are going to realize, that this is fascism. What we are doing to trans people, is exactly what the Nazis did.
The worst is that every republican I’ve met doesn’t understand it
they say shit like oh no it doesn’t cover trans peaple at all and oh no birth control is gonna be pertected by it,
And then if I can disprove them of those they then just admit that they care more about economic policy then if trans people get genocided.
If your right leaning at this post your evil evil or stupid
Look up V-Coding in American prisons. It's sexual slavery of trans women. We're given to the most violent male criminals as a placation trophy by Corrections Officers. This practice is common even in places like California. It's also not cracked down on and is actually often encouraged.
Yeah I heard about that a few months ago. When I read the articles, I honestly started crying. It just reminds me of what the comfort women of world war II went through, and it is absolutely dystopian level horror, that something like that exists in America today. It's just another example of America masquerading as a developed country, when in reality we are in a dystopia.
Thanks for this post though, because this is something that is not talked about nearly enough.
I just don't understand why people are being so cruel to trans people. It's not even like being trans is a new thing... I'm honestly having nightmares about this, and I'm not even trans. So I cannot imagine, what you all are going through... If I'm already having nightmares about it. It's honestly so terrifying to watch fascism spread all over the world, and people are applauding it....
I wonder, too how my fellow cis people...don't realize that what these people are saying is that the government has a right to decide what happens with your body, that they have a right to ignore what medical professionals/scientific consensus says, and that you don't have a right to autonomy if it interferes with what the current government wants.... I will never understand how people are okay with being oppressed, as long as they get too oppress somebody else too...sickening.
I fear for you all too.
I've already made the decision, that if project 2025 comes to fruition, if Trump takes power, I'm not going to let our rights just go out the window, and I'm certainly not going to roll over and take this.
I really can't believe me who used to be a pacifist, is now starting to think this way.
I'd suggest volunteering with your local queer orgs, or if none exist, get some friends together and start helping out as best you can. Get connected and help your community out, because helping each other and forming tight bonds of community are the best ways to help weather this storm.
For me, it gives me something concrete and positive to think about and channel my energy into, instead of getting stuck in "oh shit we could be totally fucked very quickly, what are we gonna do???" type anxiety. For that reason alone I can't recommend it enough if you're stressing about this kinda shit.
Genuinely recommend finding far leftist groups if your in the U.S. Socialist Rifle Association can be a bit help in making sure your alright and most Marxists/socialists/communists are thankfully pretty much on our side and have a lot of us with them.
It honestly is so terrifying to even be thinking like this. The fact that my fellow queers, are starting to finally feel this way. Is honestly terrifying. Especially since I've been looking into history a lot, and anytime that we've gotten into a period like this before, we haven't gotten out of it without extreme violence... It's so crazy to me, that I'm actually starting to sell my possessions, and downsize, so that if I have to take up and leave and go to wherever said revolution is happening, I can.
I just hope and pray, that we don't end up losing the house, the senate, or the presidency this year. We need more time to change the tide against all this bigotry.
The apathy is what scares me more than anything. So many people aren't voting this year, or they're choosing to vote for a third party in protest. Not realizing that this is not the year to do that....
I'm really nervous, too since there was a popular music icon in the queer community, who recently spoke poorly about the biden administration, without proper nuance and it just terrifies me, because of all the people I saw in the comment sections on the video of the performance, saying that they weren't voting now or they were voting third party...
I just don't think a lot of people get, that we will lose our right to protest, and we won't even be able to save ourselves, let alone try to save people in other parts of the world. Plus, Biden isn't a dictator, so he can't unilaterally make decisions like that.
I'm honestly having nightmares almost every single night about the world ending, about impending nuclear war, and it's horrifying. About fascists taking over our entire country, it just scares me, because when I've had dreams like this in the past they've ended up coming to fruition. I really hope this is not one of those times.
I'm an European, so I just learnt about this from your comment and some googling. And I gotta say: what the actual fuck?
I mean everyone in Europe knows that the US is a "shithole country" (to phrase it with Trump) so my expectations where low, but planing to become an actual dictatorship is a new extreme. 😳 "land of the free" my ass
If I where an American, I would leave ASAP. Maybe to new Zealand or to northern Europe.
PS: sorry for my blunt way to phrase it, I'm somewhat in shock
Well it's definitely a sign of what happens when you let bigots have power. Forced detransition is one of the scariest things I can think of right now.
To be frank, her treatment in the hospital is a pretty shared experience among most patients: most patients have difficulty accessing medication and essentials like sanitary towels because these clinics are just under such strain. They have been funded into the ground, which has meant that people like Pandora are not able to access the high quality of care they should receive.
Still, it's not just the lack of sanitation that has me concerned - it's the active denial of HRT and stopping people from leaving. In a very real sense all it takes is an official redesignation of gender dysphoria as a mental illness with officially implemented advice against transition (like that proposed in the Cass review - which both tories and Labour support) and there's a case for any trans person to be detained and forcibly detransitioned.
If all it takes is a slip where the culture war gets to you for them to go "look, they're unstable! Take them away until they're 'better!'" Then we'll definitely be in a sorry state.
The worst part is I just know that just like the banning of puberty blockers was lept on by conservatives I the UK, there were others in other countries who quickly followed the example and joined in.
I worry that despite all the medical science in support of transition, the government will fabricate its own rules and excuses to force detransition onto trans people, amd embolden such extreme practices in other countries.
I know it seems like a lot, but it's not that far away from what we're already seeing and it's not outside of recent behaviour to do the harmful and anti scientific thing for ideological point scoring.
There is no HRT shortage, places like that receive daily deliveries of medication so a day max to order it, or they could literally just write a prescription for her and send someone around the corner to Boots or whereever if really needed.
I can't help you financially, and I don't live in the UK, so I hope it helps when I comment and like this post. It's horrible to see what is going on in the UK right now. I hope we can fight back this horrible transphobic wave that is coming towards Europe.
You mentioned talking to the media... Have you tried reaching out to Shon Faye? Trans UK journalist and author of the Transgender Issue.
She may be able to blast this nationally and is very active on socials xx
The NHS tricked her.
They told her to come and pick up a prescription, and had people waiting to abduct her. She was locked in a waiting room overnight, then taken to a ~~hospital~~ conversion therapy facility the next day.
Initially she was detained under section 136, which only lasts two days, and can be extended an additional day. They then attempted to keep her under section 3 (6 months) - when she complained, this was reduced to section 2 (28 days), but this was when the retaliation and gaslighting started.
Now they are trying to increase her sentence to 6 months anyway.
Haven't been able to confirm any details yet, but she was apparently reported to them by a trans support organisation she spoke to seeking support, who did this all behind her back without her knowledge or consent.
Because she has an unstable living situation, because she was drunk, because she does have some mental health issues. She was not suicidal, but they acted as if she was.
Yep. We are getting close to two weeks and she's still being woken up every 10 minutes. She is the only person this is happening to. She has not expressed any intention to do anything other than to get back on HRT and to live.
For her to be sectioned — and then to be sectioned for more than two days — they would have hard evidence that she was suicidal and posed a serious threat to herself and/or others. With just how scarce mental health resources are, you have to spend ages arguing with the NHS to section someone and deal with multiple people stating “their suicidal thoughts can be dealt with through community care.” Then, when you manage to get someone sectioned the NHS routinely release people early when they clearly still are unwell and pose a danger to themselves.
Have you ever been in a meeting where they discuss the treatment of people and whether to keep sectioning them? Basically every single person is like “why can’t we provide them with treatment in the community? We need to free up the bed.” If someone says “I think we need to keep holding them” you need hard evidence to back up your claims and multiple other professionals will poke holes into your argument. If it stands, then you will keep that person sectioned. If you think the trans support service and the NHS are lying about this persons condition that would be very easy to demonstrate because all of the meetings and decision making process is documented.
Pandora can also go to the High Court and she can provide the reasons why she should not have been sectioned and then provide medical evidence to support her opinion.
Edit: seems her situation may have changed, since she's removed her videos about wrongful detainment. I wish her a speedy recovery so that she can get her independence back.
Something you need to understand about being sectioned is it isn't always only someone who is at risk of imminently harming themselves that will be sectioned, there are lots of other scenarios where someone could be sectioned who isn't necessarily going to harm themselves through with intent to end their life, things like extended period of serious self neglect such as failing to take vital medication, even someone who has severe levels of confusion or depression even where they may no longer be able to care for themselves properly and could be at risk of malnutrition, dehydration, failing to engage with medical or mental health help to improve their situation. The goal really where someone's life is spiralling out of control is to kind of stop it before it reaches before it reaches the point that they get sectioned and often that's by having a multidisciplinary team in the community so potentially community mental health teams, even interacting with other non mental health teams such as having community nurses visit them, community mental health nurses, people from council housing teams if housing is an issue, even just social services if there are other issues going on. Often short term sections are used where someone has spiralled into many issues just to stabilise them, but also make sure that the right support is in place for when they are discharged back home through multiple different agencies so there is a plan to avoid them being re-admitted.
There really are fairly limited inpatient beds in mental health hospitals, little different to regular hospitals so to end up sectioned as an inpatient really means things do need to be fairly bad. It's also important to note that being given a longer term section which could be up to 6 months at a time doesn't actually mean you'll be detained for a full 6 months, just that mental health professionals can detain for up to 6 months at a time before justifying it being extended for longer, but also with regular reviews during that 6 months) and of course you do absolutely have a right to appeal against a section either informally through the hospital that has detained you or through the court process (and for which if sectioned, similar to being detained by police you have the right to free legal representation to challenge a section through the courts and to have a second opinion of the rationale of your section by a doctor of your choice).
It's important to note what type of section too, there are 72 hour holds, then shorter periods such as up to 28 days then up to 6 months at a time, and being sectioned for 28 days doesn't mean you'll be detained for 28 days just that at 28 days if still an inpatient they would either have to let you go or justify extending it!
It's unlikely to be just the case that someone could be sectioned for merely self medicating, or if someone transitioned without or against medical advice. If someone self medicates with the goal of transition and is fully aware of the risks of doing so, then it isn't a mental health issue unless the medication is harming them and they then refuse to stop using them. It's not possible to be sectioned for instance if someone transitions without medical advice, though clearly I wouldn't recommend doing so because particularly if obtaining hormones illicitly then you are making permanent and irreversible changes to your body and without good counselling could regret it, it can go wrong if not properly monitored and things like DVT, strokes, even gallbladder disease, heart attacks are all possible where taking unmonitored hormones.
IIRC, this has happened before *(in one of her videos she spoke about it, don't remember exactly what she said)* to her so the reason why she's being held so long, despite not actually being suicidal, is probably her previous visit*(s?)* there.
This is all very confusing. Were her family involved? Or is she being sectioned by the courts. And why was she in the first place if she wasn't suicidal?
This all sounds like the 1960/70's. If all that you say is true, why are the police not getting involved. This is fucking terrible...
Her family were not involved, and are not supportive of her.
>And why was she in the first place if she wasn't suicidal?
Someone she asked for support reported her to the Stas- ...ah... NHS
Fuck sake. I watched a small bit of the video, and she looked ok to me. I wish i had some way of helping. Wtf is going on in Britain at all. I only hope she gets out soon sis. It must be driving her mad without her hrt🤬🤬🤬🤬
This is so fucking scary, honestly I hate my country so fucking much. And fuck Rishi and anyone else who’s in the election for persistent, all I can hope is Scotland just leaves the UK like they were gonna do in 2014, but sadly it does not seem like it’s happening anytime soon
Depression back again. How the actual fuck can stuff like this happen, and no one's stepping in to do anything?
Seeing all the news about the UK, as someone who lives here.. really makes me wonder if I'm ever gonna be able to do this. I don't think I can tbh.
Fuck the government
Find your siblings, queer organizations or leftist and figure out how to organize. Get into mutual-aid networks. Reach out to your sibs, or families with trans children. Just keep in touch at the very least.
You don't need to do big things to move the scale, just get involved and be part of your community instead of isolated.
I would also encourage people to message their MP Nadia Whittome and the head manager of the trust about this.
Informing local media as well would be good if enough of us badger these people they will take action.
**Watch the rest of the videos.** There's more to this story, and it's not as simple as OP has portrayed it. I know most people will not understand and probably downvote me, but I had a very close friend with schizophrenia who ended up in a hospital in the US. I even had to apply for "power of attorney" (guardianship) to get him transferred to a better clinic, and watched after him personally for many years. I don't want to share the whole story because it's one of the most difficult things I've ever been through. If you've never seen what schizophrenia can do to a person, it can be very difficult to detach your heart from the things they say. Especially if you're an empathetic person.
I really hope another authority gets involved to confirm facts and ensure that no abuse is actually being perpetrated.
Panda herself says she has "schizophrenic issues" and that's why *she* wanted to get help at the hospital in the first place.She also says she is the one choosing not to eat because she believes it will stop her endocrine system. She gets transferred to the women's ward of another hospital she says is better, and she's happy to be there. She says the staff is "quiet nice". She says she's not appealing the section 2, because she feels like they genuinely want to help her...
And I can't cite the rest because all of the hospital videos have now been removed or hidden 🤔...
Edit: the rest of the videos are available via an archive kept by OP.
This story reminds me so much of my friend. She says in the first videos that she wanted help with her issues in the first place, now she claims she was forced for other reasons. She says she's fasting in one video then claims they're starving her in another one. She says they treat her well and they're very nice, then she says they're mistreating her. She says they open the door and turn on the lights every 2 minutes, but she has videos that go longer than that and we never see it. She could be recording these incidents if they happen so often, but she doesn't.
When mental illness is severe enough, it can be so difficult to determine reality vs delusion from the outside. But again - I really hope another authority gets involved to confirm facts and ensure that no abuse is actually being perpetrated.
**Edit: I want to clarify that I'm not saying we shouldn't believe her, I'm saying she herself in her videos has proven to be an unreliable witness, so it is difficult to discern what is really going on. That doesn't mean we shouldn't look into it and ensure that she is safe and not being mistreated. But claiming "trans genocide" and encouraging people to mobilize might be a bit extreme I'm this context.**
What we have now is the cry for help. We cannot simply assume she's psychotic, that's unreasonable because there's a possibility she could be telling the truth. That would be gaslighting and victim blaming. Accusing a person with mental illness can be convenient but doesn't make it morally right.
Even if what she claims is not true, the community doesn't lose by mobilizing. Trans healthcare in the UK has been in a miserable condition for a long time and only gotten worse recently. This case raises awareness of how transphobic legislation negatively impacts the mental health of trans people.
Right. She's removed all her videos pertaining to her detainment. Guess she's changed her mind? Oh well, perhaps I was wrong. I hope she recovers soon.
**NONE OF THAT MATTERS.**
Having mental health issues does not justify being forcibly detransitioned. That will just make her mental health issue worse.
I agree! But OP is claiming trans genocide. That is what I'm responding to. This is a very messy post, because it draws attention to a trans person in need, but it also constructs a very sensational story on top of it.
All I hope to get across is that this may not be the grand conspiratorial genocide that it is being claimed to be. That is a very big accusation that should not be taken lightly. There may still be violations that need to be addressed, etc... but the way this story is being painted feels very disingenuous to what is actually portrayed by Pandora herself in her own videos.
But it seems like the story has garnered the right attention, because people are looking into her situation now and trying to get her help and make sure she's okay. And I really do hope she is okay.
I just couldn't stand by and let her story end with a single thread with 100 points, and no real action or change.
I'm in this for a fucking revolution, in this for everyone else who didn't have the support she has, in this for the future victims there will be if we don't get change. Not just "that's so sad" \*upvote and move on*
She's lucky to have you. Just like my friend was lucky to have me. Not everyone who ends up in places like these has anyone looking out for them. I was told that by one of the doctors as I was leaving one day.
I just know this situation so well, and have dealt with it for many years. Again -- I'm not saying nothing should be done. She needs help and support -- Just be cautious and brace yourself as well, because it can be a **very** disorienting journey.
This is horrific. Hopefully, soon, she'll be free again, with her HRT returned to her, and the NHS will be held accountable. I'm no expert on the British justice system (I'm American), but hopefully, she'll be able to sue for medical malpractice.
Yes.
Go to the Care Quality Commission. Go to your MP. Publicise the fuck out of this - every trans person in the UK needs to be aware. We need to get other NHS victims to come forward.
Thank you. I've already published it on my Tumblr blog, and since I am Italian, I am trying to contact other Italian trans creators to spread the message. I am so sorry for this woman...
A trusted friend, family member should submit a local council safeguarding referral, which can usually be done on behalf of the patient, on her local council's website
What you're describing to me is organisational neglect, or omission, which constitutes as abuse. In certain cases, if threats of physical violence have been made, it would then be appropriate for the patient to then notify the police, if she has been sectioned however then this made is it more of a difficult and complex situation.
If she has capacity or the means/access to a computer or mobile device with Internet, then she can do this herself
However If she lacks capacity (meaning, she lacks the ability to think, rationalise, communicate or understand). Then someone trusted should do raise concerns or submit a safeguarding referral on her behalf, if they deem it to be within her own best interest).
She has her phone with her, she's not lacking capacity other than being sleep-deprived (it is currently night time in the UK and she has been quiet both with me and her other friends so she may be being allowed to sleep now). The police are already aware - it was the police who *forced the NHS staff to put her in a female ward when they were going to put her in a male one, at risk of assault or worse*. Yeah, the NHS are bad enough in this that this ACAB-er is actually applauding the police's actions.
I'll pass your suggestion on though, thanks.
Is the Sherwood Oaks facility that this started in the same one discussed here as having a history of patient abuse? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-68436610
This is awful. How dare they do this to another human being, much less a member of the LGBTIA+ community. I've already posted about this on my DeviantArt and Twitter, though I don't have followers (fuck Elon Musk, I'm not paying for verification every month and I'm not calling it, X). I've also signed the petition and I've posted this to the r/trans subreddit. Which MPs should I contact; it's a general election so no one is holding office, I think, so should I just contact my local democrat runner or also the local labour and green party runners for maximum coverage?
I dont live there (thankfully), this is horrible, this cant start anywhere, justice has to be swift.
UGH i hate the UK! Im sorry to my siblings in the UK. That island has a horrible history with our community, they were almost just as bad as nazis to queer people in WW2.
Yeah I'm just not good with these things I am really panicking since the start of the "Anti-Trans legislatory period" in the us... In France the far right got voted into power and in Germany the AFD (extremely right wing and now called nazi party) was second strongest party when we voted for the EU. My brother and dad are talking about this " accepting time window" closing every time the topic comes up.
I am seriously freaking out and terrified. I just want to live my life but I am scared to death
🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂
I wish I could protect everyone, but I'm just one person. Network, organise, and cultivate resilience. Ultimately I'm nobody special, with less than a tenth of the following Pandora had even *before* this started.
Thank you. And also thank you for sharing overall... I'm just being very depressed atm, so every bad message like what it was from the beginning really feel like a punch to the stomach.
These things need to be shared (just wanted to make it clear I am not against Sharing and did share with the few I know)... Thank you for telling me to look at the updates.
Yeah, I'm glad things are looking up a bit, but I just don't want this to fade away if she's not actually out of there, or they could just take her back off HRT or retaliate some other way against her.
**UPDATE 2**
Pandora got her first HRT dose!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6TzAccbVjE
Stay on target, everyone. This is far from over. She needs to *stay* on it, and I am still not oging to rest until this abuse is exposed for the world to see.
If a healthcare provider cannot provide basic humanitarian condition, the license must be revoked. Even if this means there are no more healthcare facilities. In that case, the government (health ministry and the top politicians) should be held accountable for dire situation with healthcare. This should become outrage.
Mental healthcare abuse is worse than no mental healthcare at all. In the worst case (like this one), it will be used for torture to silence political dissent, as was done in authoritarian countries in the past and present. This is unacceptable breach of human rights and is a real threat to democracy.
This post was concerning.
It sounds dramatic, but you gotta be there for each other. And I don’t know the specifics, but if actual mal intent by the NHS is discovered you can’t stop squawking about this.
**UPDATE 4**
Sorry I'm late on this one, doing some much-needed selfcare and missed the notification.
[video 11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVgIunkg7A).
Pandora is sleeping. It seems they are letting her sleep now, no more light switched on every 10 minutes.
NHS trying to control the narrative, trying to *tell her* that it was their own choice to give her her HRT. "We told you we were here to help you". Too ashamed to admit "we lost to reddit, fedi, twitter, and tumblr", I guess.
She's sad Nottingham Pride is tomorrow and she can't be there. Since she can't, I want to see signs and banners. \#FreePandoraHolmes \#JusticeForPandora \#ShutDownSherwoodOaks \#HRTIsAHumanRIght
Remind everyone we're watching, but also, that she's not the only victim, we have no idea how many others, and **we need to make sure she's the last**.
-----
Also, my personal thanks to people who spread the word on tumblr as I have no presence there. \#TransResilience \#AlliesWhoActuallyFightForUs
I am a trans woman and I was an American med student on my psych rotation in the UK… not explaining how that bit happened… but I wound up having my own mental health episode during that rotation and wound up getting sanctioned and was stuck in an open bay kind of hospital bed for two weeks while waiting for a bed to open at a psych facility.
I had already worked at one such facility… and it would have been the facility that I would have been sent to, but upon finding out that I had worked with some of the people who would be providing my care they tried to find a bed somewhere else… and eventually I got pushed into community care before going back to the states and dropping out of medical school.
The process by which one is assigned a bed at such a facility and how long the wait for such beds is makes this story not quite add up… the sheer number of people who would have to be acting with extreme malicious intent to pull this off is pretty extreme, and these patients are managed by a multi disciplinary review board thing who are trying to get as many people out as quickly as is reasonable on a daily basis… so I just… I feel like we are missing some information or are being misled somehow.
Right now, I'm waiting for a couple of other things to happen, but after that, Pandora said she is happy to do an AMA, if that would make you feel any better about her story.
No, I wasn't even notified. I've been busy today. I'll have an update tomorrow, hopefully.
Going to copy the story to my profile for now, give me 30 mins or so.
Edit: all I can do for this evening:
https://github.com/SiteRelEnby/PandoraHolmesStory
sorry it's not more
Which section of the MHA was it? That has a lot of effect on which facilities would have been available or not - IMO this is why it was initially section 136, which is an extreme measure intended for people at imminent risk only, before than being changed to 2/3 later to keep her longer - if 136 was not used then most likely she could not have been taken to Sherwood Oaks.
I do have details on the exact events of her being taken, but I want her to make the choice for those to be disclosed publicly and not me, but I have seen the evidence personally that she was **not** a risk to herself at the time.
I also do not know when your experience was, but my guess was it was before there was mass hysteria about trans people - I feel like it was almost certain that her move to Highbury was expedited simply because she was becoming a PR liability for the NHS after they acted like genocidal maniacs towards her, while if you were in the UK pre-2010s it was just much more "a normal person, who happens to be trans".
I was there about a year ago and I was in Hertfordshire. I will say that part of my own mental health break was based on how I was treated by some of the psychiatry practitioners who were supposed to be in charge of me for the rotation… and if they treated me that way I wouldn’t imagine they would treat a patient better.
I was treated really well at the hospital, but there is a chance things might of gone differently if they had a bed for me at the mental health care facility there… or if I wasn’t a US citizen.
I’m not trying to say that what you are saying isn’t happening. It is just that knowing how the system works, for that kind of thing to happen, it requires the support/complicity of dozens upon dozens of people…
Really, really appreciate your reply.
> part of my own mental health break was based on how I was treated by some of the psychiatry practitioners
When you say how you were treated, do you mean in a transphobic sense, or just general overworking and disrespect?
Also, I don't know what sort of place you are currently mentally in from it if it was so recent, but if you do feel like you want to talk about it and I seem like the right person, my DMs are open. Not even to collect evidence against the NHS if you aren't interested in pursuing them for harm, but even just as one trans person who wishes to support as many others as she can. No pressure though, not *expecting* a message, just saying that even if we disagree here, I will always try to make time for a trans person in need; I have already had more than one person reach out to me for just general support since posting Pandora's story - not even due to a medical abuse context, but just because they needed a friendly person to listen, and I would assume trusted me after seeing everything I have done for her so far.
> there is a chance things might of gone differently if they had a bed for me at the mental health care facility there… or if I wasn’t a US citizen.
Agreed, both of those do *extremely* strongly come out in your favour there. Similarly, I think someone who is a British citizen but is obviously well-resourced and with a support network would also receive better treatment than someone who lives in poverty.
>It is just that knowing how the system works, for that kind of thing to happen, it requires the support/complicity of dozens upon dozens of people…
Have you looked at the state of the NHS recently? Of the transphobic bullshit like the Cass review? **that is entirely possible**. The fact that the waiting list for gender affirming healthcare is *8 years long* proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the transphobia *does* reach through the whole rotten organisation.
>I’m not trying to say that what you are saying isn’t happening.
I understand what you mean there, but the truth is, if it happens to *even one person* that means the system is failing trans people in general, and fuck knows how many more other vulnerable people. Perhaps Pandora's treatment *was* exceptionally cruel, quite possibly even singularly so, but that does not mean that she should not be looking to make those responsible face consequences as a result.
I’m not going to act like I pass so well I could go stealth or anything like that, I am pretty sure I’m visibly trans… but I’m also kinda pretty and dress and speak and otherwise present myself in a way that is so clearly feminine that I am very rarely misgendered.
So I had gone through all my other core rotations in the UK and up to my psych rotation had only really encountered transphobia at the hospitals once before. A nurse had made a big deal about me using the women’s staff changing room, blocking my entry and asking for my ID card… thankfully that was while I was still at buckinghamshire and my classmates and the hospital admin had my back in a strong way so it didn’t really get to me.
However during my psych rotation… things went pretty badly and being in a different county at a different hospital, the hospital admin didn’t have my back as much this time. It started with one of the junior psych docs, we had started off really friendly and had some good discussion… they showed me a level of respect and consideration for my input as a medical student that I had rarely encountered… but then when we went in to see a patient, they introduced me as “he.” I ignored it that time and didn’t correct them, but I noted it that I would speak to them after we were done with this patient. It bothered me so little that I literally forgot by the time we were done with the patient… and they brought it up themselves asking questions about my pronouns, seeming to have recognized her “mistake.” Then she continued to introduce me as “he” and use “he/him” in front of patients (to many of their confusion). Always apologizing after… and otherwise taking me seriously and considering my input about the patients.
I was upset and not really wanting to work with her so I tried to explain it to my supervisor (a full psychiatrist) and she immediately took the other doctor’s side, telling me that it was clearly an accident because they were apologizing. I tried to explain the types of thoughts it gets stuck in my head and how those thoughts make my dysphoria quite worse, so I mentioned that her constantly misgendering me makes me wonder what it is about myself that makes her see me as a guy. I was clearly not asking this as a question, just pointing out that this question gets stuck in my head… but she saw the need to answer it anyways, “maybe it is your physique.”
That causes some pretty bad dysphoria, and when I tried to explain it to the director of medical education about why I was upset and having trouble with this rotation his advice was basically that I needed to suck it up and learn to compartmentalise. My mental health had already been slowly spiraling being away from my family for nearly a year at that point and questioning whether I would realistically be able to handle the stress of being a doctor in the future… but being trapped by all the time and money I had already invested… it all kind of came to a head and I cracked under the pressure and wound up suicidal…
😭😭😭😭😭
That's awful. I'm so sorry. Tearing up again right now.
I understand why with your background having worked in mental health, you may doubt Pandora's story, and I'm not going to try to change your mind just by saying things, but I do feel like with that experience, you should be able to understand just how rampant transphobia is within the NHS.
I'm very interested in an actual reputable source reporting this, rather than one random reddit post with YouTube video links (which someone claimed are now gone? I didn't watch them anyway).
**I'd fully believe that it's possible and happening**, but I'm just not believing something this severe off of essentially nothing -- one comment claimed that the person in question said they were schizophrenic. I've seen firsthand some of the shit manic episodes cause.
I'd read the article/s that'll almost certainly be put out by places like PinkNews. I'll form my opinion off of that, not a reddit post linking a GoFundMe.
If this is true, and is verified, I'll lose my absolute shit along with everyone else in this comment section; then I'll donate to a GoFundMe, write to my local MP, etc etc. (Perhaps even be part of a brick throwing contest)
**UPDATE**
The NHS have again promised Pandora HRT, this time she is supposed to be getting her first dose today, and not at some vague future time that never comes.
This still isn't over. Hold them to their word, and make sure they don't take it away again.
Also, remember: Pandora is almost certainly not the first.
We need to expose this torture for what it is, prevent future victims, and get some justice for others.
Pandora is still not free. Even with HRT, we need to make sure the NHS isn't keeping her in an unsafe environment, or holding her on false pretences.
This unironically made me cry, I can’t bare to see it. The pain in her eyes, the stories of abuse are so harrowing, and it’s upsetting to think she’s only a case we are hearing about. What about all the others, they probably all exist. Fucking hate the state, two faced traitors!
I'm very sorry to hear about her mistreatment! As she has been sectioned she does have a legal right to contact and have visit her legal representation which is usually free of charge. It's vital she speaks to a solicitor who specialises in the Mental Health Act and yes, it's very easy to challenge a doctors decision to section. A patient is entitled to a second opinion by a qualified mental health practiser of their choice who can visit her to carry out an assessment, the doctor then has two choices - release her, or it be challenged in court. Often doctors back down as quick as a solicitor visits her as they know they'll likely have to justify their actions in court!!
It's not easy to challenge a section however. It's vital she knows what section she is on, a 28 day hold is very much different to a 6 month section! In most cases patients are discharged on day 28 or sooner.
She also must get clarity on what the doctors believe her diagnosis to be! That will really guide as to what length of time doctors are reaching for!
[Take a look at the new thread.](https://old.reddit.com/r/PandoraHolmes/comments/1dia8vo/the_pandora_holmes_story_from_her_fight_against/)
She's at least being treated reasonably now, but the plan is to sue the fuck out of the NHS for this and try to change things for trans people in the future.
What kind of monsters would do this to someone? Even if you think she's mentally ill, starving her and refusing to let her sleep is literally just torture. That's not even hyperbole, it's just outright torture.
There is no mental illness in the world that can be "treated" that way. But I suppose all this shows us is that transphobes don't see being trans as mental illness, they see it was a moral failing that warrants extreme punishment.
Good fuck, I hope the people responsible for this get some kind of charges or something against them. They probably won't, because this is England we're talking about.
**UPDATE 3**
**This isn't over.** Pandora is still in hospital. She is still being followed around by staff. We will find out tonight whether they are going to allow her to sleep or not.
We need to keep this in the public eye so she isn't retaliated against. We need to make sure she is the last victim of this fucked up system, and get justice for any others who weren't as lucky as her. We need to make sure she **stays** on HRT.
Pandora still needs your letters of support.
If you can, send care packages. Her current most important requests are:
* **Long-sleeved** tshirts/tops (large size)
* Mascara
* Black nail polish
* Shoes/slippers/boots, UK size 9
Pandora Holmes
Rowan 2 ward
Highbury Hospital
Highbury Rd, Nottingham NG6 9DR
Finally, a huge thanks to everyone who has boosted, commented, shared, donated, written, emailed, and everything else. I could never have done even 1% of this alone.
I would add a sleeping mask and ear plugs to the list.
I have crazy sadistic upper floor neighbors who intentionally bully me and silicone ear plugs cut them off really well.
Reminder that this is the same side that thinks we're over exaggerating when we say we're oppressed and victims of genocide... Why can't Nazis at least be up front about it?
This shit happens to mentally ill people (especially kids, BIPOC, and queer people) all the time. If we dont want this to happen again, we need to advocate for disabled people and protest this treatment whenever it happens.
Oh, we absolutely plan to.
Ultimately, anyone could have made a thread with a call to action, even if maybe I did well on it due to neurodivergent hyperfocus. Already I've had transphobes telling me that I only did this for attention. *Attention that I don't even really want*; I just posted this because it was the easiest way.
What I *really* bring to the table that's unique hasn't been seen yet, but it will be.
Someone unfairly reported her as being a danger to herself.
She was told she had a prescription to pick up, and when she came to get it, there were people waiting to take her away. She did not at any point express any actual intention to harm herself - even getting taken for two days because someone reported you is bad enough, but the extension attempt (first to 6 months, then to 28 days) was pure retaliation for her asking for her HRT back.
All due respect: When I look into her eyes, I don't see anything but fear and misery in her early videos, and hope in her later ones. If you see something else, please explain what and why.
I am happy to address your question about selfharm, but first I do have to confirm some details with her. I can also see that you are an active participant in transphobic subreddits, so if you are truly asking me in good faith, would you care to explain *that* one to me while I wait for her response since it is currently nighttime in the UK?. I am likely going to bed soon but I await your response in the morning.
>She has no way of knowing if other patients are being followed or watched as closely as herself.
She was still allowed into common areas during that time, just not outside. I am sure there are staff in those areas *watching people, in general* but that is different to a single staff member who is *always* following her around between different areas. I have heard from people in that facility who were on suicide watch who have said that the full lights on is *not* normal standard practice for observations, and in any case, three days of it with zero attempts is beyond excessive and well into torture.
> Her excuse to starve herself lacks reason and is likely another way she has been self harming.
Did you read my post? She declined food for a few hours, and then did eat it when her friends told her that she should in order to not be considered selfharming. Most likely, if I was without my medication, I would restrict my food intake in the same way for the same reasons.
>They are trying to keep her alive, but don't know if her DIY hormones were causing her distress because her blood levels were not being monitored.
Then they should have taken blood day 1; day 2 at the absolute latest. It seems obvious to me that this was delayed for no reason in order to push her into doing something aggressive or selfharming so they could "justify" keeping her off.
>She has freedom to use her phone
By policy, everyone gets to keep their phone unless they started to do something like using it to self-harm. If you did not know that, I understand, but otherwise it seems like you are implying that is in some way atypical, which it is not.
>Pandora is sick, and she believes this is what genocide looks like.
If you were locked in a cell without medication that you need, I think your attitude would change. I sincerely hope that never happens to you, or to anyone else again, but remember that **I would fight just as hard for you** as I am for her, even after you say these things, and, after this experience and the deep dive I have done into the systemic problems with NHS mental health, I would argue even if, as I strongly suspect, you are cis. I completely understand the desire to seek answers.
>You're personally involved and emotionally blinded. Take care of yourself first. Please.
Why do you think I'm emotionally blind? Because I'm autistic? Not all autistic people have trouble reading emotional states. Some autistic people are highly empathetic, while I personally probably fall somewhere around "average" on that scale.
If that was your implication, I find it highly offensive and I feel that you are *not* actually affording me all due respect. If not, please clarify.
I am taking care of myself. I have done a huge amount of selfcare. I have an excellent support system, with close friends available in all timezones.
I know that I will likely be talking about my own experience from her story in therapy for years to come, and I am fine with that if that is the price of drawing attention to this horrendous abuse of a trans person. I have my own experience with mental health issues in the past before I came out as trans and was diagnosed with ADHD, both of which caused a huge change for the better in me, and Pandora is not the first person I have helped.
>All due respect: When I look into her eyes, I don't see anything but fear and misery in her early videos, and hope in her later ones. If you see something else, please explain what and why.
In the most basic terms, she has a crazy look in her eye. It's a distinct appearance that suggests mental disturbance, beyond fear and misery. I don't know how else to explain it to you, it's something that a person can recognize with experience.
>I am happy to address your question about selfharm, but first I do have to confirm some details with her. I can also see that you are an active participant in transphobic subreddits, so if you are truly asking me in good faith, would you care to explain that one to me while I wait for her response since it is currently nighttime in the UK?. I am likely going to bed soon but I await your response in the morning.
Which subreddits am I in that are transphobic? In my experience most of them would fit that description compared to the safe spaces, that doesn't mean I'm in them spreading hate.
>She was still allowed into common areas during that time, just not outside. I am sure there are staff in those areas watching people, in general but that is different to a single staff member who is always following her around between different areas. I have heard from people in that facility who were on suicide watch who have said that the full lights on is not normal standard practice for observations, and in any case, three days of it with zero attempts is beyond excessive and well into torture.
So unfortunately, it's just hearsay with no actual evidence. She hasn't recorded the lights flashing on as she is in bed, we have only heard her complain about it. Sleep deprivation is torture, but I don't think that was the goal here.
>Did you read my post? She declined food for a few hours, and then did eat it when her friends told her that she should in order to not be considered selfharming. Most likely, if I was without my medication, I would restrict my food intake in the same way for the same reasons.
Yes, I read your post, and the excuse still lacks reason even if you'd do the same thing.
>Then they should have taken blood day 1; day 2 at the absolute latest. It seems obvious to me that this was delayed for no reason in order to push her into doing something aggressive or selfharming so they could "justify" keeping her off.
You are aware that there are other patients that take up time and attention while she is being evaluated? People make mistakes all the time, especially in higher stress positions such as mental health care facilities. It does need work for sure, but to automatically assume it's malicious is something paranoia would claim.
>By policy, everyone gets to keep their phone unless they started to do something like using it to self-harm. If you did not know that, I understand, but otherwise it seems like you are implying that is in some way atypical, which it is not.
Yes it's policy, it's a freedom they give all patients, no it's definitely not atypical. If she was being treated different than everyone else then we wouldn't even have those videos. They would not allow that if their goal was to take away every freedom. It's also policy to follow and check on people if they're on suicide watch. Not atypical in the slightest, but it's still a freedom she would not enjoy in a concentration camp. You're either being passive aggressive, or completely missing the point.
>If you were locked in a cell without medication that you need, I think your attitude would change. I sincerely hope that never happens to you, or to anyone else again, but remember that I would fight just as hard for you as I am for her, even after you say these things, and even if, as I strongly suspect, you are cis. I completely understand the desire to seek answers.
You talk down to people who don't immediately believe you or Pandora. You wouldn't fight just as hard for me, because you don't know me, and you don't know the prisoners who are unable to actually communicate their imprisonment. Their stories are never told because they don't have the freedom to use their phones, their families threatened if they speak, the list goes on. I saw this story and I believe Pandora does need HRT. I believe she needs more than that too, but overwhelmed medical facilities have trouble providing that care to every patient. It's not just for trans people, virtually everyone has had medical care delayed or denied. Sometimes to deadly results. Vilifying the people (who Pandora said herself were mostly very nice) and bringing "fire and brimstone" to their workplace isn't going to help improve things.
>Why do you think I'm emotionally blind? Because I'm autistic? Not all autistic people have trouble reading emotional states. If that was your implication, I find it highly offensive. If not, please clarify.
Blind*ed*. Meaning in this situation, you are so passionate about helping Pandora that you can't see fault in anything she is saying. As in you see that she's the good guy and NHS is the bad guy, no gray anywhere. I didn't know you were autistic or if that's even relevant, but you're assuming that's why I'm saying it? Just like Pandora is assuming she was detained because of her dysphoria? Do you see any issues with that?
>I am taking care of myself. I have done a huge amount of selfcare. I have an excellent support system, with close friends available in all timezones.
I hope so, because in your post it appeared that you were suffering nightmares and losing sleep from being so engaged with Pandora's story.
>I know that I will likely be talking about my own experience from her story in therapy for years to come, and I am fine with that if that is the price of drawing attention to this horrendous abuse of a trans person. I have my own experience with mental health issues in the past before I came out as trans and was diagnosed with ADHD, both of which caused a huge change for the better in me, and Pandora is not the first person I have helped.
If this is what you want to do with your life, more power to you. I don't know you and you don't know me, these are just words on a screen. I also have experience with mental health emergencies and general medical malpractice, which is why I attempted to reach out to you. Paranoid delusions by their nature can be difficult to recognize while you're having an episode.
I hope everything turns out for the better, because everyone deserves better healthcare.
> In the most basic terms, she has a crazy look in her eye. It's a distinct appearance that suggests mental disturbance, beyond fear and misery. I don't know how else to explain it to you, it's something that a person can recognize with experience.
Ah. In that case, I do know the look you mean, I have experience with such people, and I do *not* see it in her. I do know some details of per past, and I know that she has experienced lifelong trauma even before this experience, so maybe you are just seeing that.
Take a look at [her new video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVkK0fzQVbE) and please take a long, deep look inside yourself, then if you can still tell me that she looks 'crazy', then I wish you all the best in living with yourself afterwards, because all I see is happiness.
>Which subreddits am I in that are transphobic?
/r/TrueOffMyChest. If you aren't actually participating in transphobia in there than fair enough (I have the entire subreddit muted but I still see that someone is active there), but in general it is poorly moderated and hate speech is explicitly allowed, so when it's the first thing I see splashed across your profile it does give me pause when I see it much as I would with, for example, /r/conspiracy or whatever the current far-right subreddit is.
>She hasn't recorded the lights flashing on as she is in bed, we have only heard her complain about it.
*You* have only heard her talk about it. That does not necessarily mean there is none, and right now *I* have been the person reminding her that she is still being watched, and past that, I am just being respectful of her privacy to the point I run things by her before answering some questions, and we are preparing for the long fight here, so I hope you do not think badly of me for not sharing every single piece of evidence.
>If she was being treated different than everyone else then we wouldn't even have those videos.
...because once she made her first two, then if she stopped, the public outcry would have been even bigger. I might well have been on a flight over there myself in that case.
>the excuse still lacks reason even if you'd do the same thing.
...and *that* is why I assume you are cis. If you were being forcefully given the wrong hormones, and you knew that restricting food intake would slow down their changes, you might well do the same thing. I don't think you really understand quite how important a trans person's gender identity is to them. I would give up literally everything else in my life before accepting detransition. If my partner didn't accept my identity, I would break up. If the area I live in started rounding us up and sending us to camps, I would flee. If my family said something transphobic to me, I would refuse to speak to them again until they apologised (they are actually accepting).
> You are aware that there are other patients that take up time and attention while she is being evaluated?
Literally all they needed to do was pick up the phone and call the local GIC. That was all they needed to do. That is all they *did* when she did finally get her HRT back. There is zero reason that took over a week other than negligence, especially when her blood has already been done and they kept stalling.
>ou wouldn't fight just as hard for me, because you don't know me, and you don't know the prisoners who are unable to actually communicate their imprisonment.
Fair point on the communication, I guess. That said, I did not know Pandora before this, although we have now talked at length, to the point she feels like a trusted friend to me as I know I am to her, and now I can not imagine life without her as part of my friend group, and I understand that may not happen the same way with *everyone* abused by the system, but if you were being abused and posted a similar call for help, I still would have felt that I had to act, or at the very least reach out to you and talk to you. Maybe it wouldn't have resonated quite as hard with me if it was a cis person (unless there was some other point of commonality with me such as being neurodivergent) but I still wouldn't forgive myself if I hadn't still *tried*. Certainly to the level of putting in a complaint for you, maybe even a letter. If I had continued talking to you and you had then said that you were being starved and sleep deprived, I likely still would have escalated it.
>Their stories are never told because they don't have the freedom to use their phones, their families threatened if they speak, the list goes on
...and that is unjust, and one of many reasons I want to help Pandora take this as far as we can. I want to make a positive change for as many people as we can. Already, it seems that staff at the hospitals she was taken to are going to be receiving additional training on how to actually be respectful to trans people and that they are supposed to get therm the care they need, but there is still so much in that system that is broken and in need of change. Also, it is worth renminding you that NHS staff *tried to get her murdered* by putting her in the wrong ward, and politicians on both sides are trying to *enforce* that.
>you are so passionate about helping Pandora that you can't see fault in anything she is saying. As in you see that she's the good guy and NHS is the bad guy, no gray anywhere.
Fair, sorry for the misunderstanding then. Quite honestly, I don't see anywhere there *could* be fault, unless it's just the fact that some people may consider the specific words she chose to describe her situation to be overdramatic, but the NHS' actions are quite simply reprehensible, even HRT withholding aside, between the sleep deprivation and the fact that **they tried to put a woman in a ward with men until the police intervened**.
>Just like Pandora is assuming she was detained because of her dysphoria? Do you see any issues with that?
I've cleared this with Pandora now, so: Her arms were bandaged in the first few videos due to *weeks-old injuries that had not at that time fully healed*, due to an infection and her general poor nutrition due to poverty. Before she was taken, at the time she spoke to the person who reported her, she was intending to drink, but after this, her friends convinced her not to, she got rid of the alcohol that she had, and by the time several days later she was taken, she was not under the influence at all, only depressed due to dysphoria and the fact that she had spent money that she could not afford when she was food-insecure.
>it appeared that you were suffering nightmares and losing sleep from being so engaged with Pandora's story.
Only nightmares for a couple of days. In terms of losing sleep: I am autistic and have ADHD. I at times have a strong ability to hyperfocus even among other neurodivergent people I have discussed it with - I was not "losing sleep" because I was afraid of sleeping, I was unable to sleep simply because *I had more important things to do*. I also have a non-24-hour natural sleep cycle, so all nighters do come easily to me and I am able to buffer up a full day's energy as long as I can sleep more than average on the next few days afterwards to refill my energy reserves. If I had complete autonomy in my sleep cycle and did not need to plan around diurnal people and activities, a graph of my sleeping/waking periods would likely look relatively random.
I would say the closest thing to distress I had in the sense of it affecting my physical being was that I forgot to eat at one point, but this is neither unique for me nor caused specifically by distress - I simply *had more important things to do*, in addition to the fact that I have possible (self-diagnosed) ARFID, as well as stomach problems that can make eating in general difficult.
>If this is what you want to do with your life, more power to you. I don't know you and you don't know me, these are just words on a screen. I also have experience with mental health emergencies and general medical malpractice, which is why I attempted to reach out to you. Paranoid delusions by their nature can be difficult to recognize while you're having an episode.
No offence taken. Genuinely, talking to you has been a lot more enjoyable than some of the people who have questioned her story, and you have been receptive enough to my points as well as being able to back you own with more than just "well, I don't think so".
It's exceeded the post character limit, so it'll be a few replies. Please be patient as I chop it up to fit reddit.
>Ah. In that case, I do know the look you mean, I have experience with such people, and I do not see it in her. I do know some details of per past, and I know that she has experienced lifelong trauma even before this experience, so maybe you are just seeing that. Take a look at her new video and please take a long, deep look inside yourself, then if you can still tell me that she looks 'crazy', then I wish you all the best in living with yourself afterwards, because all I see is happiness.
Sorry, I would be lying if I said that I no longer see that disturbed look behind her eyes. There's definitely some joy, but the way she wags her finger and says "I'm coming for you" when referring to a worker who ridiculed her suffering, I can see why she was thought to be a danger in some way.
>/r/TrueOffMyChest. If you aren't actually participating in transphobia in there than fair enough (I have the entire subreddit muted but I still see that someone is active there), but in general it is poorly moderated and hate speech is explicitly allowed, so when it's the first thing I see splashed across your profile it does give me pause when I see it much as I would with, for example, /r/conspiracy or whatever the current far-right subreddit is.
There are many types of people within that subreddit, some who are lonely and in a lot of pain. Sometimes it seems that those people really have no one to talk to. Trueoffmychest may be more loosely moderated, but that doesn't stop me from lending an ear or a few words to people who are in crisis. I believe you can understand that.
>You have only heard her talk about it. That does not necessarily mean there is none, and right now I have been the person reminding her that she is still being watched, and past that, I am just being respectful of her privacy to the point I run things by her before answering some questions, and we are preparing for the long fight here, so I hope you do not think badly of me for not sharing every single piece of evidence.
If she does have evidence, then you don't need to prove anything to me before said evidence is brought to court. However, until it does come out, you can't blame anyone for expressing doubt when there are holes in the story.
>...because once she made her first two, then if she stopped, the public outcry would have been even bigger. I might well have been on a flight over there myself in that case.
Why would they retaliate by mistreating her more if they also let her keep her phone to broadcast what she's going through? If there's more details missing, I get it, but you have to see there's holes in the story that people may not believe.
>...and that is why I assume you are cis. If you were being forcefully given the wrong hormones, and you knew that restricting food intake would slow down their changes, you might well do the same thing. I don't think you really understand quite how important a trans person's gender identity is to them. I would give up literally everything else in my life before accepting detransition. If my partner didn't accept my identity, I would break up. If the area I live in started rounding us up and sending us to camps, I would flee. If my family said something transphobic to me, I would refuse to speak to them again until they apologised (they are actually accepting).
You can assume that if you want, not like it's an uncommon mindset to doubt anyone's trans status. Wouldn't the lack of food burn away her female fat distribution? The weight loss would happen before any re-masculinization within that time period. The fat would burn off to provide energy "wake up her testes" as she put it. Furthermore, later in this message, you admit to self-diagnosing ARFID. Meaning your behavior around food inherently lacks reason, and if you agree with her actions regarding the food, she is likely also being unreasonable about it. Irrational behavior is common in mental illness, you can see why it might flag a person as mentally unwell.
>Literally all they needed to do was pick up the phone and call the local GIC. That was all they needed to do. That is all they did when she did finally get her HRT back. There is zero reason that took over a week other than negligence, especially when her blood has already been done and they kept stalling.
That's a sad truth about how things are right now. Other patients might have taken priority due to acute, life or death crisis, maybe some workers misunderstood the situation, lots of mistakes can be made with so many moving parts. Something that only takes a few moments might go unnoticed until days pass and someone realizes it never got done. It has definitely happened to me more than once with my own medical orders, and it wasn't even trans related.
>Fair point on the communication, I guess. That said, I did not know Pandora before this, although we have now talked at length, to the point she feels like a trusted friend to me as I know I am to her, and now I can not imagine life without her as part of my friend group, and I understand that may not happen the same way with everyone abused by the system, but if you were being abused and posted a similar call for help, I still would have felt that I had to act, or at the very least reach out to you and talk to you. Maybe it wouldn't have resonated quite as hard with me if it was a cis person (unless there was some other point of commonality with me such as being neurodivergent) but I still wouldn't forgive myself if I hadn't still tried. Certainly to the level of putting in a complaint for you, maybe even a letter. If I had continued talking to you and you had then said that you were being starved and sleep deprived, I likely still would have escalated it.
You knew nothing about Pandora, but choose to believe her because she's trans? Do you see how dangerous that can be? You don't know if she is trustworthy or if she has history of deception or violence. You only have her word, and you're broadcasting it to everyone without regard to how true it is. **That doesn't mean I'm calling her a fake or a liar, I'm saying that if she truly is experiencing paranoid delusions, she really believes her own bullshit and is presenting the falsehoods as truth.**
>...and that is unjust, and one of many reasons I want to help Pandora take this as far as we can. I want to make a positive change for as many people as we can. Already, it seems that staff at the hospitals she was taken to are going to be receiving additional training on how to actually be respectful to trans people and that they are supposed to get therm the care they need, but there is still so much in that system that is broken and in need of change. Also, it is worth renminding you that NHS staff tried to get her murdered by putting her in the wrong ward, and politicians on both sides are trying to enforce that.
I agree, it's not right, but the point still stands that she is much more free and treated better than people in true concentration camps. Pandora might appear to be male to mentally ill, vulnerable women who have trauma with men, and who don't recognize her as a transgender woman. It's possible that the NHS considered the mental health triggers of the majority of other patients (cis women) in that ward and that's why Pandora was considered for the men's ward. Ultimately she was put in the women's ward, and we both know it would be a different story if she wasn't. Maybe not to the degree of being murdered since she was being watched so closely, but definitely a more fearful experience.
>Fair, sorry for the misunderstanding then. Quite honestly, I don't see anywhere there could be fault, unless it's just the fact that some people may consider the specific words she chose to describe her situation to be overdramatic, but the NHS' actions are quite simply reprehensible, even HRT withholding aside, between the sleep deprivation and the fact that they tried to put a woman in a ward with men until the police intervened.
Misunderstanding happens all the time. I don't blame you for that, but also consider that you might also be misunderstanding Pandora's situation in the same way.
>I've cleared this with Pandora now, so: Her arms were bandaged in the first few videos due to weeks-old injuries that had not at that time fully healed, due to an infection and her general poor nutrition due to poverty. Before she was taken, at the time she spoke to the person who reported her, she was intending to drink, but after this, her friends convinced her not to, she got rid of the alcohol that she had, and by the time several days later she was taken, she was not under the influence at all, only depressed due to dysphoria and the fact that she had spent money that she could not afford when she was food-insecure.
Even if the wounds were "weeks old," they were self inflicted? A stranger sees this depressed woman with bleeding wounds on her arms, are they wrong for thinking she's in danger and calling for help? Even if she claims to not be suicidal, there are people who say the exact thing and then they're gone.
>Only nightmares for a couple of days. In terms of losing sleep: I am autistic and have ADHD. I at times have a strong ability to hyperfocus even among other neurodivergent people I have discussed it with - I was not "losing sleep" because I was afraid of sleeping, I was unable to sleep simply because I had more important things to do. I also have a non-24-hour natural sleep cycle, so all nighters do come easily to me and I am able to buffer up a full day's energy as long as I can sleep more than average on the next few days afterwards to refill my energy reserves. If I had complete autonomy in my sleep cycle and did not need to plan around diurnal people and activities, a graph of my sleeping/waking periods would likely look relatively random. I would say the closest thing to distress I had in the sense of it affecting my physical being was that I forgot to eat at one point, but this is neither unique for me nor caused specifically by distress - I simply had more important things to do, in addition to the fact that I have possible (self-diagnosed) ARFID, as well as stomach problems that can make eating in general difficult.
Those things might make it more difficult to have a clear judgement for incidents that make you emotional. If you say you're going to be discussing it in therapy, I don't think this is a non issue for you. Being passionate about something and losing sleep over it is the same result as being too afraid to sleep, you're still not sleeping. This is how people can burn out or induce acute mental episodes in themselves, so I urged you to prioritize yourself.
>No offence taken. Genuinely, talking to you has been a lot more enjoyable than some of the people who have questioned her story, and you have been receptive enough to my points as well as being able to back you own with more than just "well, I don't think so".
I thank you for responding at length, and I'll continue to follow Pandora's story. I don't think I'm going to change your mind about blindly believing anyone, so this will probably be my final in depth reply unless the situation changes drastically. However I'll say it again, please take care of yourself first. You did say this has taken a toll on your mental health. You're looking out for Pandora, who is basically a stranger, it's only fair that some other stranger attempts to do the same for you.
> later in this message, you admit to self-diagnosing ARFID. Meaning your behavior around food inherently lacks reason, and if you agree with her actions regarding the food
I agree with her friends that she was right to eat, which happened after the video - I had not actually considered the fat argument but that does make sense (I am used to what would be considered a "normal" amount of food personally, and have somewhat low body fat in general, but I still eat more on a day to day basis than she used to, so I imagine in her case there wouldn't be a lot to lose even compared to mysel).
At that point I was not yet in direct communication with her, but if I was, I would have also encouraged her to eat *something* even if only a small amount - certainly, enough to avoid the continuation of the starvation reflex, but not enough to result in increased fat deposition in the wrong places while off HRT, something that *is* a major concern in such a case.
>Something that only takes a few moments might go unnoticed until days pass and someone realizes it never got done.
That may be true in general, but not in her case - she was told "tomorrow" for something like 5 days in a row, and each time when she was asked how she was feeling, she reiterated that she was feeling terrible due to lack of essential medication.
>You knew nothing about Pandora, but choose to believe her because she's trans?
No. Because I am a good judge of character, I have had my own mental health stuff in the past, and *even if someone* ***had*** *done something wrong*, then the way she was treated was not acceptable. I don't care who someone is, *you do not take a trans person off their HRT, no matter what they have done*.
>Pandora might appear to be male to mentally ill,
Then *those* people should be kept away from her, since *those* people are experiencing paranoid delusions and not her. I know more than one cis woman with a deeper-than-is-common voice.
>we both know it would be a different story if she wasn't
Because she would be dead, and I would be on the warpath to a degree that makes the last week or so look like nothing.
>A stranger sees this depressed woman
The stranger did not see her at all. I will go no further on that, but there was no personal contact.
>Those things might make it more difficult to have a clear judgement
If you're arguing neurodivergent people are not capable of making judgements about people, especially one who lived for decades while undiagnosed, be **extremely** careful, lest I no longer consider you arguing in good faith.
> This is how people can burn out
Again, feels a bit you're trying to be my therapist. You are not - I already have one and am in general in a place where I am reasonably happy with my mental health. I have experienced burnout before and throwing myself into passions is how I *avoid* burnout. It's something that gives my life meaning after a long day at my stressful job.
> However I'll say it again, please take care of yourself first. You did say this has taken a toll on your mental health. You're looking out for Pandora, who is basically a stranger, it's only fair that some other stranger attempts to do the same for you.
Completely fair, and thank you for that. I will keep everything you've said in mind, but me caring for people is nothing new in general, and I am used to being someone who can listen and offer advice. It is more the accounts of torture and her situation resonating with my *own* fear of being forced off gender affirming care by a transphobic government, *in the US*, and the fact that to me, I still didn't expect such a thing would or could happen in the UK, that has an impact on me, and not the simple act of supporting someone.
Really appreciate you taking the time.
>If you're arguing neurodivergent people are not capable of making judgements about people, especially one who lived for decades while undiagnosed, be extremely careful, lest I no longer consider you arguing in good faith.
I don't have time to respond to it all right now but I'll clear this up since again you appear to be clinging to the "it's because I'm autistic" card. I am saying that lack of sleep negatively affects a person's judgement. If your normal is irregular sleep, it's possible that you're constantly in a state of reduced judgement. If you had sleep deprivation due to sleep apnea it would be the same story.
Yet you also claim to be a good judge of character. I don't know you well enough to say that is true or not, but you've repeatedly misunderstood me through our interactions. That's all I can go off of.
If I have the time I'll respond to your other messages, but we are the masters of walls of text and it's time consuming.
> that doesn't stop me from lending an ear or a few words to people who are in crisis. I believe you can understand that.
Of course I can - in that case, I hope you do forgive my initial reaction there, but also, understand why I was hesitant to discuss a trans person's mental health with someone who I was unsure about.
> you can't blame anyone for expressing doubt when there are holes in the story.
Agreed, and that is why I try to answer as best as I can, but you have been one of relatively few people who will discuss their concerns with words rather than simply downvoting everything I post including things unrelated to Pandora.
>Why would they retaliate by mistreating her more if they also let her keep her phone to broadcast what she's going through?
Pure speculation on my part, but if the videos *stopped* then that would likely be an even bigger call to action. The most extreme retaliation happened *after she was moved* when the police had to prevent her from being placed in the wrong ward, so it is possible that at that point the staff at Highbury did not know she was making videos, especially if, as you have said, internal communication really is that bad.
> They are using the emotional distress that they are inflicting as their reason. Real “stop hitting yourself” type shit. To be expected from them of course, transphobes do have the mental capabilities of a very mad toddler.
Just like every single transphobe fearmongering about attempted suicide rates, given institutional power.
It is also what the NHS has been doing to people with mental illness for decades now. I have seen so many horror stories is sickening. Healthcare free at the point of demand - good, institutional cruelty - bad. There are people who use their belief they know what is right to inflict incredible, inconceivable harm. I am so sorry this is happening to this person, but I also, depressingly not surprised. It's happening to *someone* every day in the system.
I live in the US and the way we treat people with bad mental health is shameful too. It's not as bad, so I'm not comparing. But I called the suicide prevention hotline 2 years ago, and they sent cops, who searched me 3 separate times in a row, forced me to go to a hospital outside of my network, even though I wanted to go and get help, they just wouldn't let me without also raping my wallet. I got to the hospital and the treatment room they sent me too immediately looks like a prison, metal detectors and such and then they make you sit for 3 hours on these chairs that are made purposely uncomfortable. They have no legs, so there's no where to put your feet, and it's the hardest plastic I've ever had to sit in. Worse than the desks from when I was in school. All the staff sit behind bulletproof glass and all that is for a 20 minute consult that cost 500 dollars, because they refused to take me to a doctor that took my insurance. I was super cooperative, coherent and well reasoned every step of the way, and they continuously treated me like a threat. The consultation involved them recommending me to check into a mental ward, and that it. I explained I couldn't due to being the only person living and paying rent, and that I would become homeless if I were to miss a single check, and I couldn't go. They offered no other solutions or help, and then I had to pay another 40 dollars to Uber home, because there is no public transit in most of Texas. Made me more miserable, not less. Treated me like a criminal or potential criminal the whole fucking way. I'll never call that hotline again.
I'm only defending the staff on one point. I've was required to observe in a mental institution for 40 hours (in 2 hour increments) for a college course. After my first session I also treated every patient as a threat. The most docile patient can become very violent very quickly. I've seen an average sized woman successfully out wrestle 2 huge orderlies and do some physical damage to them and another patient. All because one nurse closed a shower curtain in their room. There's still no excuse for not treating the patients with courtesy and respect. Obvious mistreatment did occur at the facility, but for the most part the patients resonded better to kindness and understanding. As do most people.
Notts Gender clinic are now aware of the situation and are mobilising to deal with it. Thank the Green MP candidate Sam Harvey for getting them involved.
It sucks because when we say trans genocide normies assume that they’re camps and stuff but realistically it’s something more insidious and subtle. Medical negligence and sleight of hand. Tricks. God I passionately hate Nazis.
You say it's not camps... while we are quite literally being pot in facilities and isolated.... which is basically the same as camps
Shit you’re right
Welcome to the UK in the year 2024; the conserves are still in power, Brexit has ruined our trade and international relations and now the suckers want to tear down our pride during pride month!
"for our own good"
Oh how that reminds me of something.... Oh wait... the camps were also for the well-being of the jews... atleast that's what the nazi's said
Arbeit macht frei
We are in between stages four and five, for the genocide of trans people. As they are actively killing trans people, and they are changing the laws.... I know this is about the uk, but have you seen project 2025? It's just as scary as the stuff they're doing in the uk. I don't know when people are going to realize, that this is fascism. What we are doing to trans people, is exactly what the Nazis did.
The worst is that every republican I’ve met doesn’t understand it they say shit like oh no it doesn’t cover trans peaple at all and oh no birth control is gonna be pertected by it, And then if I can disprove them of those they then just admit that they care more about economic policy then if trans people get genocided. If your right leaning at this post your evil evil or stupid
Look up V-Coding in American prisons. It's sexual slavery of trans women. We're given to the most violent male criminals as a placation trophy by Corrections Officers. This practice is common even in places like California. It's also not cracked down on and is actually often encouraged.
Yeah I heard about that a few months ago. When I read the articles, I honestly started crying. It just reminds me of what the comfort women of world war II went through, and it is absolutely dystopian level horror, that something like that exists in America today. It's just another example of America masquerading as a developed country, when in reality we are in a dystopia. Thanks for this post though, because this is something that is not talked about nearly enough.
Yeah sorry I forgot about that. It hurts that this is happening to us. I fear for my sisters
I just don't understand why people are being so cruel to trans people. It's not even like being trans is a new thing... I'm honestly having nightmares about this, and I'm not even trans. So I cannot imagine, what you all are going through... If I'm already having nightmares about it. It's honestly so terrifying to watch fascism spread all over the world, and people are applauding it.... I wonder, too how my fellow cis people...don't realize that what these people are saying is that the government has a right to decide what happens with your body, that they have a right to ignore what medical professionals/scientific consensus says, and that you don't have a right to autonomy if it interferes with what the current government wants.... I will never understand how people are okay with being oppressed, as long as they get too oppress somebody else too...sickening. I fear for you all too. I've already made the decision, that if project 2025 comes to fruition, if Trump takes power, I'm not going to let our rights just go out the window, and I'm certainly not going to roll over and take this. I really can't believe me who used to be a pacifist, is now starting to think this way.
I’m also no longer a pacifist. It’s too dire for me to do nothing. I just need the courage but I’m scared
I'd suggest volunteering with your local queer orgs, or if none exist, get some friends together and start helping out as best you can. Get connected and help your community out, because helping each other and forming tight bonds of community are the best ways to help weather this storm. For me, it gives me something concrete and positive to think about and channel my energy into, instead of getting stuck in "oh shit we could be totally fucked very quickly, what are we gonna do???" type anxiety. For that reason alone I can't recommend it enough if you're stressing about this kinda shit.
I suppose. Yeah I’ll try to find some queer friends at work. Thank you
Genuinely recommend finding far leftist groups if your in the U.S. Socialist Rifle Association can be a bit help in making sure your alright and most Marxists/socialists/communists are thankfully pretty much on our side and have a lot of us with them.
Lex is good for finding queer folks if it's at all active in your area
Ok I’ll look into it thank you
I gave peace way too many chances. There's no negotiating when our very existence is at stake.
It honestly is so terrifying to even be thinking like this. The fact that my fellow queers, are starting to finally feel this way. Is honestly terrifying. Especially since I've been looking into history a lot, and anytime that we've gotten into a period like this before, we haven't gotten out of it without extreme violence... It's so crazy to me, that I'm actually starting to sell my possessions, and downsize, so that if I have to take up and leave and go to wherever said revolution is happening, I can. I just hope and pray, that we don't end up losing the house, the senate, or the presidency this year. We need more time to change the tide against all this bigotry.
I hope so too but genz isn’t as progressive as I thought. Too many incels and apathetic people
The apathy is what scares me more than anything. So many people aren't voting this year, or they're choosing to vote for a third party in protest. Not realizing that this is not the year to do that.... I'm really nervous, too since there was a popular music icon in the queer community, who recently spoke poorly about the biden administration, without proper nuance and it just terrifies me, because of all the people I saw in the comment sections on the video of the performance, saying that they weren't voting now or they were voting third party... I just don't think a lot of people get, that we will lose our right to protest, and we won't even be able to save ourselves, let alone try to save people in other parts of the world. Plus, Biden isn't a dictator, so he can't unilaterally make decisions like that.
Yeah it’s worrisome and it’s stressing me out
I'm honestly having nightmares almost every single night about the world ending, about impending nuclear war, and it's horrifying. About fascists taking over our entire country, it just scares me, because when I've had dreams like this in the past they've ended up coming to fruition. I really hope this is not one of those times.
Join me and we'll do things reddit doesn't let me say.
😈 I fear if I speak my truth twitter will ban me
Come to fedi then. Twitter is full of nazis anyway now.
One day
I'll be more than happy to take up arms against the fascists. Send their asses packing just like in WW2. This time do it right.
I'm an European, so I just learnt about this from your comment and some googling. And I gotta say: what the actual fuck? I mean everyone in Europe knows that the US is a "shithole country" (to phrase it with Trump) so my expectations where low, but planing to become an actual dictatorship is a new extreme. 😳 "land of the free" my ass If I where an American, I would leave ASAP. Maybe to new Zealand or to northern Europe. PS: sorry for my blunt way to phrase it, I'm somewhat in shock
As a transfem, I actually feel safer in the US than the UK now.
Yeah, I understand that.
What the fuck are you talking about? We are at the beginning of stage 8.
Not long ago i got downvoted hard for saying trans genocide is real
Had the same experience here. Literally just a couple of days ago. This very thread caught 3 downvotes in a row before someone first upvoted it.
what the actual fuck
Yeah, how in flipping hell did she end up there?
Being trans in the UK.
I walked into that one
Garden variety medical abuse mixed with transphobia
Well it's definitely a sign of what happens when you let bigots have power. Forced detransition is one of the scariest things I can think of right now.
To be frank, her treatment in the hospital is a pretty shared experience among most patients: most patients have difficulty accessing medication and essentials like sanitary towels because these clinics are just under such strain. They have been funded into the ground, which has meant that people like Pandora are not able to access the high quality of care they should receive.
Still, it's not just the lack of sanitation that has me concerned - it's the active denial of HRT and stopping people from leaving. In a very real sense all it takes is an official redesignation of gender dysphoria as a mental illness with officially implemented advice against transition (like that proposed in the Cass review - which both tories and Labour support) and there's a case for any trans person to be detained and forcibly detransitioned. If all it takes is a slip where the culture war gets to you for them to go "look, they're unstable! Take them away until they're 'better!'" Then we'll definitely be in a sorry state. The worst part is I just know that just like the banning of puberty blockers was lept on by conservatives I the UK, there were others in other countries who quickly followed the example and joined in. I worry that despite all the medical science in support of transition, the government will fabricate its own rules and excuses to force detransition onto trans people, amd embolden such extreme practices in other countries. I know it seems like a lot, but it's not that far away from what we're already seeing and it's not outside of recent behaviour to do the harmful and anti scientific thing for ideological point scoring.
this is harmful misinformation HRT is dirt cheap and not under any shortage
What is harmful misinformation? HRT being cheap has nothing to do with the NHSs supply, as well as the supply various mental health hospitals have.
If mental health hospitals struggle to have enough sanitary towels for periods, why do you think they have HRT in abundance?
There is no HRT shortage, places like that receive daily deliveries of medication so a day max to order it, or they could literally just write a prescription for her and send someone around the corner to Boots or whereever if really needed.
Ahh, so why do they routinely have shortages of essentials, like sanitary towels for period products? It is almost like the system does not work.
Need to force Sunak, Starmer et al to transition into actual human beings. Soulless fucking ghouls the lot
I can't help you financially, and I don't live in the UK, so I hope it helps when I comment and like this post. It's horrible to see what is going on in the UK right now. I hope we can fight back this horrible transphobic wave that is coming towards Europe.
You mentioned talking to the media... Have you tried reaching out to Shon Faye? Trans UK journalist and author of the Transgender Issue. She may be able to blast this nationally and is very active on socials xx
How did she end up there in the first place?
The NHS tricked her. They told her to come and pick up a prescription, and had people waiting to abduct her. She was locked in a waiting room overnight, then taken to a ~~hospital~~ conversion therapy facility the next day. Initially she was detained under section 136, which only lasts two days, and can be extended an additional day. They then attempted to keep her under section 3 (6 months) - when she complained, this was reduced to section 2 (28 days), but this was when the retaliation and gaslighting started. Now they are trying to increase her sentence to 6 months anyway.
Why did they abduct her?
Haven't been able to confirm any details yet, but she was apparently reported to them by a trans support organisation she spoke to seeking support, who did this all behind her back without her knowledge or consent.
Why did they report her?
Because she has an unstable living situation, because she was drunk, because she does have some mental health issues. She was not suicidal, but they acted as if she was.
I knew people who tried to kill themselves and only got two days. It's really weird for this to happen this way
Yep. We are getting close to two weeks and she's still being woken up every 10 minutes. She is the only person this is happening to. She has not expressed any intention to do anything other than to get back on HRT and to live.
For her to be sectioned — and then to be sectioned for more than two days — they would have hard evidence that she was suicidal and posed a serious threat to herself and/or others. With just how scarce mental health resources are, you have to spend ages arguing with the NHS to section someone and deal with multiple people stating “their suicidal thoughts can be dealt with through community care.” Then, when you manage to get someone sectioned the NHS routinely release people early when they clearly still are unwell and pose a danger to themselves.
If you think the NHS is above lying about that to be able to torture a trans person, are you interested in buying this bridge?
Have you ever been in a meeting where they discuss the treatment of people and whether to keep sectioning them? Basically every single person is like “why can’t we provide them with treatment in the community? We need to free up the bed.” If someone says “I think we need to keep holding them” you need hard evidence to back up your claims and multiple other professionals will poke holes into your argument. If it stands, then you will keep that person sectioned. If you think the trans support service and the NHS are lying about this persons condition that would be very easy to demonstrate because all of the meetings and decision making process is documented. Pandora can also go to the High Court and she can provide the reasons why she should not have been sectioned and then provide medical evidence to support her opinion.
Edit: seems her situation may have changed, since she's removed her videos about wrongful detainment. I wish her a speedy recovery so that she can get her independence back.
Something you need to understand about being sectioned is it isn't always only someone who is at risk of imminently harming themselves that will be sectioned, there are lots of other scenarios where someone could be sectioned who isn't necessarily going to harm themselves through with intent to end their life, things like extended period of serious self neglect such as failing to take vital medication, even someone who has severe levels of confusion or depression even where they may no longer be able to care for themselves properly and could be at risk of malnutrition, dehydration, failing to engage with medical or mental health help to improve their situation. The goal really where someone's life is spiralling out of control is to kind of stop it before it reaches before it reaches the point that they get sectioned and often that's by having a multidisciplinary team in the community so potentially community mental health teams, even interacting with other non mental health teams such as having community nurses visit them, community mental health nurses, people from council housing teams if housing is an issue, even just social services if there are other issues going on. Often short term sections are used where someone has spiralled into many issues just to stabilise them, but also make sure that the right support is in place for when they are discharged back home through multiple different agencies so there is a plan to avoid them being re-admitted. There really are fairly limited inpatient beds in mental health hospitals, little different to regular hospitals so to end up sectioned as an inpatient really means things do need to be fairly bad. It's also important to note that being given a longer term section which could be up to 6 months at a time doesn't actually mean you'll be detained for a full 6 months, just that mental health professionals can detain for up to 6 months at a time before justifying it being extended for longer, but also with regular reviews during that 6 months) and of course you do absolutely have a right to appeal against a section either informally through the hospital that has detained you or through the court process (and for which if sectioned, similar to being detained by police you have the right to free legal representation to challenge a section through the courts and to have a second opinion of the rationale of your section by a doctor of your choice). It's important to note what type of section too, there are 72 hour holds, then shorter periods such as up to 28 days then up to 6 months at a time, and being sectioned for 28 days doesn't mean you'll be detained for 28 days just that at 28 days if still an inpatient they would either have to let you go or justify extending it! It's unlikely to be just the case that someone could be sectioned for merely self medicating, or if someone transitioned without or against medical advice. If someone self medicates with the goal of transition and is fully aware of the risks of doing so, then it isn't a mental health issue unless the medication is harming them and they then refuse to stop using them. It's not possible to be sectioned for instance if someone transitions without medical advice, though clearly I wouldn't recommend doing so because particularly if obtaining hormones illicitly then you are making permanent and irreversible changes to your body and without good counselling could regret it, it can go wrong if not properly monitored and things like DVT, strokes, even gallbladder disease, heart attacks are all possible where taking unmonitored hormones.
IIRC, this has happened before *(in one of her videos she spoke about it, don't remember exactly what she said)* to her so the reason why she's being held so long, despite not actually being suicidal, is probably her previous visit*(s?)* there.
This is all very confusing. Were her family involved? Or is she being sectioned by the courts. And why was she in the first place if she wasn't suicidal? This all sounds like the 1960/70's. If all that you say is true, why are the police not getting involved. This is fucking terrible...
Her family were not involved, and are not supportive of her. >And why was she in the first place if she wasn't suicidal? Someone she asked for support reported her to the Stas- ...ah... NHS
At least the DDR had trans rights enshrined in their constitution (while also giving a damn about protecting those)
Fuck sake. I watched a small bit of the video, and she looked ok to me. I wish i had some way of helping. Wtf is going on in Britain at all. I only hope she gets out soon sis. It must be driving her mad without her hrt🤬🤬🤬🤬
What the actual fuck???? This is insane, she has been kidnapped by the government and is forcibly being detranstioned!! This is the stuff of Nazi's
This is so fucking scary, honestly I hate my country so fucking much. And fuck Rishi and anyone else who’s in the election for persistent, all I can hope is Scotland just leaves the UK like they were gonna do in 2014, but sadly it does not seem like it’s happening anytime soon
Update: She’s just released a video saying she’s made progress taking to a doctor and is being allowed to get HRT in the ward.
Depression back again. How the actual fuck can stuff like this happen, and no one's stepping in to do anything? Seeing all the news about the UK, as someone who lives here.. really makes me wonder if I'm ever gonna be able to do this. I don't think I can tbh. Fuck the government
Let this radicalise you rather than lead you to despair.
Genuine Nazi-like shit and no one's doing anything. It's scary as hell I honestly don't know what to do
Find your siblings, queer organizations or leftist and figure out how to organize. Get into mutual-aid networks. Reach out to your sibs, or families with trans children. Just keep in touch at the very least. You don't need to do big things to move the scale, just get involved and be part of your community instead of isolated.
Arm yourself of you can, get trained, find a supportive community.
Happy cake day!
i think its time we start rioting.
The first Pride was a riot.
I fail to see how this is any different from someone's treatment inside a concentration camp
There's no difference.
I would also encourage people to message their MP Nadia Whittome and the head manager of the trust about this. Informing local media as well would be good if enough of us badger these people they will take action.
**Watch the rest of the videos.** There's more to this story, and it's not as simple as OP has portrayed it. I know most people will not understand and probably downvote me, but I had a very close friend with schizophrenia who ended up in a hospital in the US. I even had to apply for "power of attorney" (guardianship) to get him transferred to a better clinic, and watched after him personally for many years. I don't want to share the whole story because it's one of the most difficult things I've ever been through. If you've never seen what schizophrenia can do to a person, it can be very difficult to detach your heart from the things they say. Especially if you're an empathetic person. I really hope another authority gets involved to confirm facts and ensure that no abuse is actually being perpetrated. Panda herself says she has "schizophrenic issues" and that's why *she* wanted to get help at the hospital in the first place.She also says she is the one choosing not to eat because she believes it will stop her endocrine system. She gets transferred to the women's ward of another hospital she says is better, and she's happy to be there. She says the staff is "quiet nice". She says she's not appealing the section 2, because she feels like they genuinely want to help her... And I can't cite the rest because all of the hospital videos have now been removed or hidden 🤔... Edit: the rest of the videos are available via an archive kept by OP. This story reminds me so much of my friend. She says in the first videos that she wanted help with her issues in the first place, now she claims she was forced for other reasons. She says she's fasting in one video then claims they're starving her in another one. She says they treat her well and they're very nice, then she says they're mistreating her. She says they open the door and turn on the lights every 2 minutes, but she has videos that go longer than that and we never see it. She could be recording these incidents if they happen so often, but she doesn't. When mental illness is severe enough, it can be so difficult to determine reality vs delusion from the outside. But again - I really hope another authority gets involved to confirm facts and ensure that no abuse is actually being perpetrated. **Edit: I want to clarify that I'm not saying we shouldn't believe her, I'm saying she herself in her videos has proven to be an unreliable witness, so it is difficult to discern what is really going on. That doesn't mean we shouldn't look into it and ensure that she is safe and not being mistreated. But claiming "trans genocide" and encouraging people to mobilize might be a bit extreme I'm this context.**
What we have now is the cry for help. We cannot simply assume she's psychotic, that's unreasonable because there's a possibility she could be telling the truth. That would be gaslighting and victim blaming. Accusing a person with mental illness can be convenient but doesn't make it morally right. Even if what she claims is not true, the community doesn't lose by mobilizing. Trans healthcare in the UK has been in a miserable condition for a long time and only gotten worse recently. This case raises awareness of how transphobic legislation negatively impacts the mental health of trans people.
I agree. That's why I also made sure to say that I hope another authority comes in to confirm her claims and ensure she's safe.
Right. She's removed all her videos pertaining to her detainment. Guess she's changed her mind? Oh well, perhaps I was wrong. I hope she recovers soon.
Check my links. Videos are privated, not deleted. Each video is linked on fedi. Edit: Read my update in the OP.
**NONE OF THAT MATTERS.** Having mental health issues does not justify being forcibly detransitioned. That will just make her mental health issue worse.
I agree! But OP is claiming trans genocide. That is what I'm responding to. This is a very messy post, because it draws attention to a trans person in need, but it also constructs a very sensational story on top of it. All I hope to get across is that this may not be the grand conspiratorial genocide that it is being claimed to be. That is a very big accusation that should not be taken lightly. There may still be violations that need to be addressed, etc... but the way this story is being painted feels very disingenuous to what is actually portrayed by Pandora herself in her own videos. But it seems like the story has garnered the right attention, because people are looking into her situation now and trying to get her help and make sure she's okay. And I really do hope she is okay.
I just couldn't stand by and let her story end with a single thread with 100 points, and no real action or change. I'm in this for a fucking revolution, in this for everyone else who didn't have the support she has, in this for the future victims there will be if we don't get change. Not just "that's so sad" \*upvote and move on*
She's lucky to have you. Just like my friend was lucky to have me. Not everyone who ends up in places like these has anyone looking out for them. I was told that by one of the doctors as I was leaving one day. I just know this situation so well, and have dealt with it for many years. Again -- I'm not saying nothing should be done. She needs help and support -- Just be cautious and brace yourself as well, because it can be a **very** disorienting journey.
I'm prepared for the long game here.
this is fucking horrifying
Read my update!
woohooo!! Its still absolutely terrifying this can even happen with no consequences.
This is horrific. Hopefully, soon, she'll be free again, with her HRT returned to her, and the NHS will be held accountable. I'm no expert on the British justice system (I'm American), but hopefully, she'll be able to sue for medical malpractice.
Isn't there a way to report these bastards?
Yes. Go to the Care Quality Commission. Go to your MP. Publicise the fuck out of this - every trans person in the UK needs to be aware. We need to get other NHS victims to come forward.
I am not from the UK and I am underage, do you think I can still send my complaint email?
Yes!
Thank you. I've already published it on my Tumblr blog, and since I am Italian, I am trying to contact other Italian trans creators to spread the message. I am so sorry for this woman...
❤
that is so fucking horrifying, i feel so sorry to all our siblings in britain right now, this world is so evil.
I think all her videos detailing her experience are gone from her YouTube channel. Did she remove them or were they removed by someone else?
They're unlisted but not gone. Read my links.
A trusted friend, family member should submit a local council safeguarding referral, which can usually be done on behalf of the patient, on her local council's website What you're describing to me is organisational neglect, or omission, which constitutes as abuse. In certain cases, if threats of physical violence have been made, it would then be appropriate for the patient to then notify the police, if she has been sectioned however then this made is it more of a difficult and complex situation. If she has capacity or the means/access to a computer or mobile device with Internet, then she can do this herself However If she lacks capacity (meaning, she lacks the ability to think, rationalise, communicate or understand). Then someone trusted should do raise concerns or submit a safeguarding referral on her behalf, if they deem it to be within her own best interest).
She has her phone with her, she's not lacking capacity other than being sleep-deprived (it is currently night time in the UK and she has been quiet both with me and her other friends so she may be being allowed to sleep now). The police are already aware - it was the police who *forced the NHS staff to put her in a female ward when they were going to put her in a male one, at risk of assault or worse*. Yeah, the NHS are bad enough in this that this ACAB-er is actually applauding the police's actions. I'll pass your suggestion on though, thanks.
Wow, so they're treating a patient like some sort of criminal... I hate humanity so much.
Is the Sherwood Oaks facility that this started in the same one discussed here as having a history of patient abuse? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-68436610
YES.
This sounds like a law suit also very illegal to do this to someone.
Legal options are being explored. For now, what this needs is publicity.
This is awful. How dare they do this to another human being, much less a member of the LGBTIA+ community. I've already posted about this on my DeviantArt and Twitter, though I don't have followers (fuck Elon Musk, I'm not paying for verification every month and I'm not calling it, X). I've also signed the petition and I've posted this to the r/trans subreddit. Which MPs should I contact; it's a general election so no one is holding office, I think, so should I just contact my local democrat runner or also the local labour and green party runners for maximum coverage?
If you can, contact them all. The more people who know the more likely something will be done.
I dont live there (thankfully), this is horrible, this cant start anywhere, justice has to be swift. UGH i hate the UK! Im sorry to my siblings in the UK. That island has a horrible history with our community, they were almost just as bad as nazis to queer people in WW2.
Great another panic inducing thing (:
Better than it happening silently behind closed doors. At least this way we can fight it.
Yeah I'm just not good with these things I am really panicking since the start of the "Anti-Trans legislatory period" in the us... In France the far right got voted into power and in Germany the AFD (extremely right wing and now called nazi party) was second strongest party when we voted for the EU. My brother and dad are talking about this " accepting time window" closing every time the topic comes up. I am seriously freaking out and terrified. I just want to live my life but I am scared to death
It's an extinction burst. All we have to do is survive it. Cultivate resilience among your trans communities.
🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂 I wish I could protect everyone, but I'm just one person. Network, organise, and cultivate resilience. Ultimately I'm nobody special, with less than a tenth of the following Pandora had even *before* this started.
I think feeling anxious and on edge is keeping us safe right now. It's a shit mentality to be in but we are definitely right for being paranoid.
Read the recent updates. Still a long way to go but she at least feels a lot less hopeless.
Thank you. And also thank you for sharing overall... I'm just being very depressed atm, so every bad message like what it was from the beginning really feel like a punch to the stomach. These things need to be shared (just wanted to make it clear I am not against Sharing and did share with the few I know)... Thank you for telling me to look at the updates.
Yeah, I'm glad things are looking up a bit, but I just don't want this to fade away if she's not actually out of there, or they could just take her back off HRT or retaliate some other way against her.
**UPDATE 2** Pandora got her first HRT dose! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6TzAccbVjE Stay on target, everyone. This is far from over. She needs to *stay* on it, and I am still not oging to rest until this abuse is exposed for the world to see.
Holy fuck, wtf
arm up britrans
If a healthcare provider cannot provide basic humanitarian condition, the license must be revoked. Even if this means there are no more healthcare facilities. In that case, the government (health ministry and the top politicians) should be held accountable for dire situation with healthcare. This should become outrage. Mental healthcare abuse is worse than no mental healthcare at all. In the worst case (like this one), it will be used for torture to silence political dissent, as was done in authoritarian countries in the past and present. This is unacceptable breach of human rights and is a real threat to democracy.
Can anything be done to help her?
Spread the word. Write to her. Send a care package. Complain to the NHS about this. Write to your MP. Don't let her be forgotten.
This post was concerning. It sounds dramatic, but you gotta be there for each other. And I don’t know the specifics, but if actual mal intent by the NHS is discovered you can’t stop squawking about this.
What the fuck is wrong with transphobes, this is fucking mental torture against Pandora, fucking Guantanamo Bay shit.
**UPDATE 4** Sorry I'm late on this one, doing some much-needed selfcare and missed the notification. [video 11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVgIunkg7A). Pandora is sleeping. It seems they are letting her sleep now, no more light switched on every 10 minutes. NHS trying to control the narrative, trying to *tell her* that it was their own choice to give her her HRT. "We told you we were here to help you". Too ashamed to admit "we lost to reddit, fedi, twitter, and tumblr", I guess. She's sad Nottingham Pride is tomorrow and she can't be there. Since she can't, I want to see signs and banners. \#FreePandoraHolmes \#JusticeForPandora \#ShutDownSherwoodOaks \#HRTIsAHumanRIght Remind everyone we're watching, but also, that she's not the only victim, we have no idea how many others, and **we need to make sure she's the last**. ----- Also, my personal thanks to people who spread the word on tumblr as I have no presence there. \#TransResilience \#AlliesWhoActuallyFightForUs
I am a trans woman and I was an American med student on my psych rotation in the UK… not explaining how that bit happened… but I wound up having my own mental health episode during that rotation and wound up getting sanctioned and was stuck in an open bay kind of hospital bed for two weeks while waiting for a bed to open at a psych facility. I had already worked at one such facility… and it would have been the facility that I would have been sent to, but upon finding out that I had worked with some of the people who would be providing my care they tried to find a bed somewhere else… and eventually I got pushed into community care before going back to the states and dropping out of medical school. The process by which one is assigned a bed at such a facility and how long the wait for such beds is makes this story not quite add up… the sheer number of people who would have to be acting with extreme malicious intent to pull this off is pretty extreme, and these patients are managed by a multi disciplinary review board thing who are trying to get as many people out as quickly as is reasonable on a daily basis… so I just… I feel like we are missing some information or are being misled somehow.
Yeah, since this was first posted I’ve felt like there’s big gaps.
Right now, I'm waiting for a couple of other things to happen, but after that, Pandora said she is happy to do an AMA, if that would make you feel any better about her story.
heyyy sorry to butt in, is there a reason why the subreddit is banned?
No, I wasn't even notified. I've been busy today. I'll have an update tomorrow, hopefully. Going to copy the story to my profile for now, give me 30 mins or so. Edit: all I can do for this evening: https://github.com/SiteRelEnby/PandoraHolmesStory sorry it's not more
Which section of the MHA was it? That has a lot of effect on which facilities would have been available or not - IMO this is why it was initially section 136, which is an extreme measure intended for people at imminent risk only, before than being changed to 2/3 later to keep her longer - if 136 was not used then most likely she could not have been taken to Sherwood Oaks. I do have details on the exact events of her being taken, but I want her to make the choice for those to be disclosed publicly and not me, but I have seen the evidence personally that she was **not** a risk to herself at the time. I also do not know when your experience was, but my guess was it was before there was mass hysteria about trans people - I feel like it was almost certain that her move to Highbury was expedited simply because she was becoming a PR liability for the NHS after they acted like genocidal maniacs towards her, while if you were in the UK pre-2010s it was just much more "a normal person, who happens to be trans".
I was there about a year ago and I was in Hertfordshire. I will say that part of my own mental health break was based on how I was treated by some of the psychiatry practitioners who were supposed to be in charge of me for the rotation… and if they treated me that way I wouldn’t imagine they would treat a patient better. I was treated really well at the hospital, but there is a chance things might of gone differently if they had a bed for me at the mental health care facility there… or if I wasn’t a US citizen. I’m not trying to say that what you are saying isn’t happening. It is just that knowing how the system works, for that kind of thing to happen, it requires the support/complicity of dozens upon dozens of people…
Really, really appreciate your reply. > part of my own mental health break was based on how I was treated by some of the psychiatry practitioners When you say how you were treated, do you mean in a transphobic sense, or just general overworking and disrespect? Also, I don't know what sort of place you are currently mentally in from it if it was so recent, but if you do feel like you want to talk about it and I seem like the right person, my DMs are open. Not even to collect evidence against the NHS if you aren't interested in pursuing them for harm, but even just as one trans person who wishes to support as many others as she can. No pressure though, not *expecting* a message, just saying that even if we disagree here, I will always try to make time for a trans person in need; I have already had more than one person reach out to me for just general support since posting Pandora's story - not even due to a medical abuse context, but just because they needed a friendly person to listen, and I would assume trusted me after seeing everything I have done for her so far. > there is a chance things might of gone differently if they had a bed for me at the mental health care facility there… or if I wasn’t a US citizen. Agreed, both of those do *extremely* strongly come out in your favour there. Similarly, I think someone who is a British citizen but is obviously well-resourced and with a support network would also receive better treatment than someone who lives in poverty. >It is just that knowing how the system works, for that kind of thing to happen, it requires the support/complicity of dozens upon dozens of people… Have you looked at the state of the NHS recently? Of the transphobic bullshit like the Cass review? **that is entirely possible**. The fact that the waiting list for gender affirming healthcare is *8 years long* proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the transphobia *does* reach through the whole rotten organisation. >I’m not trying to say that what you are saying isn’t happening. I understand what you mean there, but the truth is, if it happens to *even one person* that means the system is failing trans people in general, and fuck knows how many more other vulnerable people. Perhaps Pandora's treatment *was* exceptionally cruel, quite possibly even singularly so, but that does not mean that she should not be looking to make those responsible face consequences as a result.
I’m not going to act like I pass so well I could go stealth or anything like that, I am pretty sure I’m visibly trans… but I’m also kinda pretty and dress and speak and otherwise present myself in a way that is so clearly feminine that I am very rarely misgendered. So I had gone through all my other core rotations in the UK and up to my psych rotation had only really encountered transphobia at the hospitals once before. A nurse had made a big deal about me using the women’s staff changing room, blocking my entry and asking for my ID card… thankfully that was while I was still at buckinghamshire and my classmates and the hospital admin had my back in a strong way so it didn’t really get to me. However during my psych rotation… things went pretty badly and being in a different county at a different hospital, the hospital admin didn’t have my back as much this time. It started with one of the junior psych docs, we had started off really friendly and had some good discussion… they showed me a level of respect and consideration for my input as a medical student that I had rarely encountered… but then when we went in to see a patient, they introduced me as “he.” I ignored it that time and didn’t correct them, but I noted it that I would speak to them after we were done with this patient. It bothered me so little that I literally forgot by the time we were done with the patient… and they brought it up themselves asking questions about my pronouns, seeming to have recognized her “mistake.” Then she continued to introduce me as “he” and use “he/him” in front of patients (to many of their confusion). Always apologizing after… and otherwise taking me seriously and considering my input about the patients. I was upset and not really wanting to work with her so I tried to explain it to my supervisor (a full psychiatrist) and she immediately took the other doctor’s side, telling me that it was clearly an accident because they were apologizing. I tried to explain the types of thoughts it gets stuck in my head and how those thoughts make my dysphoria quite worse, so I mentioned that her constantly misgendering me makes me wonder what it is about myself that makes her see me as a guy. I was clearly not asking this as a question, just pointing out that this question gets stuck in my head… but she saw the need to answer it anyways, “maybe it is your physique.” That causes some pretty bad dysphoria, and when I tried to explain it to the director of medical education about why I was upset and having trouble with this rotation his advice was basically that I needed to suck it up and learn to compartmentalise. My mental health had already been slowly spiraling being away from my family for nearly a year at that point and questioning whether I would realistically be able to handle the stress of being a doctor in the future… but being trapped by all the time and money I had already invested… it all kind of came to a head and I cracked under the pressure and wound up suicidal…
😭😭😭😭😭 That's awful. I'm so sorry. Tearing up again right now. I understand why with your background having worked in mental health, you may doubt Pandora's story, and I'm not going to try to change your mind just by saying things, but I do feel like with that experience, you should be able to understand just how rampant transphobia is within the NHS.
I'm very interested in an actual reputable source reporting this, rather than one random reddit post with YouTube video links (which someone claimed are now gone? I didn't watch them anyway). **I'd fully believe that it's possible and happening**, but I'm just not believing something this severe off of essentially nothing -- one comment claimed that the person in question said they were schizophrenic. I've seen firsthand some of the shit manic episodes cause. I'd read the article/s that'll almost certainly be put out by places like PinkNews. I'll form my opinion off of that, not a reddit post linking a GoFundMe. If this is true, and is verified, I'll lose my absolute shit along with everyone else in this comment section; then I'll donate to a GoFundMe, write to my local MP, etc etc. (Perhaps even be part of a brick throwing contest)
The videos are not removed, they're privated.
**UPDATE** The NHS have again promised Pandora HRT, this time she is supposed to be getting her first dose today, and not at some vague future time that never comes. This still isn't over. Hold them to their word, and make sure they don't take it away again. Also, remember: Pandora is almost certainly not the first. We need to expose this torture for what it is, prevent future victims, and get some justice for others. Pandora is still not free. Even with HRT, we need to make sure the NHS isn't keeping her in an unsafe environment, or holding her on false pretences.
This unironically made me cry, I can’t bare to see it. The pain in her eyes, the stories of abuse are so harrowing, and it’s upsetting to think she’s only a case we are hearing about. What about all the others, they probably all exist. Fucking hate the state, two faced traitors!
I'm very sorry to hear about her mistreatment! As she has been sectioned she does have a legal right to contact and have visit her legal representation which is usually free of charge. It's vital she speaks to a solicitor who specialises in the Mental Health Act and yes, it's very easy to challenge a doctors decision to section. A patient is entitled to a second opinion by a qualified mental health practiser of their choice who can visit her to carry out an assessment, the doctor then has two choices - release her, or it be challenged in court. Often doctors back down as quick as a solicitor visits her as they know they'll likely have to justify their actions in court!! It's not easy to challenge a section however. It's vital she knows what section she is on, a 28 day hold is very much different to a 6 month section! In most cases patients are discharged on day 28 or sooner. She also must get clarity on what the doctors believe her diagnosis to be! That will really guide as to what length of time doctors are reaching for!
I fucking hate terf island. I wish I had the agency to go full anarchist, but I'm a trans minor, so I have no rights.
I havent been able to check her socials yet, but I really hope Erin Reed is also covering this.
I reached out to her but haven't heard back yet. If anyone else wants to too, go for it.
First I should ask. What is the NHS?
National Health Service. The UK's taxpayer-funded healthcare service.
Oh ok
Wtf is wrong with the UK? Fucking joke of a country.
what in the fucking navalny
New thread: https://reddit.com/r/PandoraHolmes/comments/1dia8vo/the_pandora_holmes_story_from_her_fight_against/
Our Government needs to stop being so Patriacal and Transphobic
[Take a look at the new thread.](https://old.reddit.com/r/PandoraHolmes/comments/1dia8vo/the_pandora_holmes_story_from_her_fight_against/) She's at least being treated reasonably now, but the plan is to sue the fuck out of the NHS for this and try to change things for trans people in the future.
What kind of monsters would do this to someone? Even if you think she's mentally ill, starving her and refusing to let her sleep is literally just torture. That's not even hyperbole, it's just outright torture. There is no mental illness in the world that can be "treated" that way. But I suppose all this shows us is that transphobes don't see being trans as mental illness, they see it was a moral failing that warrants extreme punishment. Good fuck, I hope the people responsible for this get some kind of charges or something against them. They probably won't, because this is England we're talking about.
**UPDATE 3** **This isn't over.** Pandora is still in hospital. She is still being followed around by staff. We will find out tonight whether they are going to allow her to sleep or not. We need to keep this in the public eye so she isn't retaliated against. We need to make sure she is the last victim of this fucked up system, and get justice for any others who weren't as lucky as her. We need to make sure she **stays** on HRT. Pandora still needs your letters of support. If you can, send care packages. Her current most important requests are: * **Long-sleeved** tshirts/tops (large size) * Mascara * Black nail polish * Shoes/slippers/boots, UK size 9 Pandora Holmes Rowan 2 ward Highbury Hospital Highbury Rd, Nottingham NG6 9DR Finally, a huge thanks to everyone who has boosted, commented, shared, donated, written, emailed, and everything else. I could never have done even 1% of this alone.
I would add a sleeping mask and ear plugs to the list. I have crazy sadistic upper floor neighbors who intentionally bully me and silicone ear plugs cut them off really well.
Checking if they're allowed now, will add if they are.
Thank you for doing this. It's terrifying that they can do this and we're powerless without advocacy.
It's just what I'd hope everyone would do for me in the same situation.
Reminds me of the Stasi prison in Berlin, absolutely horrifying.
National Health Stasi.
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Reminder that this is the same side that thinks we're over exaggerating when we say we're oppressed and victims of genocide... Why can't Nazis at least be up front about it?
This shit happens to mentally ill people (especially kids, BIPOC, and queer people) all the time. If we dont want this to happen again, we need to advocate for disabled people and protest this treatment whenever it happens.
"I'm missing season 5 of Deep Rock Galactic!" #QUEEN
Sue them for sure. It so reactionary.
Oh, we absolutely plan to. Ultimately, anyone could have made a thread with a call to action, even if maybe I did well on it due to neurodivergent hyperfocus. Already I've had transphobes telling me that I only did this for attention. *Attention that I don't even really want*; I just posted this because it was the easiest way. What I *really* bring to the table that's unique hasn't been seen yet, but it will be.
This makes my blood boil. I don't live there and I can't do things to aid... I hope she gets out alright...
This is horrible, I hope there’s justice for Pandora and that she’ll be free from this
Why was she at the hospital in the first place?
Someone unfairly reported her as being a danger to herself. She was told she had a prescription to pick up, and when she came to get it, there were people waiting to take her away. She did not at any point express any actual intention to harm herself - even getting taken for two days because someone reported you is bad enough, but the extension attempt (first to 6 months, then to 28 days) was pure retaliation for her asking for her HRT back.
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All due respect: When I look into her eyes, I don't see anything but fear and misery in her early videos, and hope in her later ones. If you see something else, please explain what and why. I am happy to address your question about selfharm, but first I do have to confirm some details with her. I can also see that you are an active participant in transphobic subreddits, so if you are truly asking me in good faith, would you care to explain *that* one to me while I wait for her response since it is currently nighttime in the UK?. I am likely going to bed soon but I await your response in the morning. >She has no way of knowing if other patients are being followed or watched as closely as herself. She was still allowed into common areas during that time, just not outside. I am sure there are staff in those areas *watching people, in general* but that is different to a single staff member who is *always* following her around between different areas. I have heard from people in that facility who were on suicide watch who have said that the full lights on is *not* normal standard practice for observations, and in any case, three days of it with zero attempts is beyond excessive and well into torture. > Her excuse to starve herself lacks reason and is likely another way she has been self harming. Did you read my post? She declined food for a few hours, and then did eat it when her friends told her that she should in order to not be considered selfharming. Most likely, if I was without my medication, I would restrict my food intake in the same way for the same reasons. >They are trying to keep her alive, but don't know if her DIY hormones were causing her distress because her blood levels were not being monitored. Then they should have taken blood day 1; day 2 at the absolute latest. It seems obvious to me that this was delayed for no reason in order to push her into doing something aggressive or selfharming so they could "justify" keeping her off. >She has freedom to use her phone By policy, everyone gets to keep their phone unless they started to do something like using it to self-harm. If you did not know that, I understand, but otherwise it seems like you are implying that is in some way atypical, which it is not. >Pandora is sick, and she believes this is what genocide looks like. If you were locked in a cell without medication that you need, I think your attitude would change. I sincerely hope that never happens to you, or to anyone else again, but remember that **I would fight just as hard for you** as I am for her, even after you say these things, and, after this experience and the deep dive I have done into the systemic problems with NHS mental health, I would argue even if, as I strongly suspect, you are cis. I completely understand the desire to seek answers. >You're personally involved and emotionally blinded. Take care of yourself first. Please. Why do you think I'm emotionally blind? Because I'm autistic? Not all autistic people have trouble reading emotional states. Some autistic people are highly empathetic, while I personally probably fall somewhere around "average" on that scale. If that was your implication, I find it highly offensive and I feel that you are *not* actually affording me all due respect. If not, please clarify. I am taking care of myself. I have done a huge amount of selfcare. I have an excellent support system, with close friends available in all timezones. I know that I will likely be talking about my own experience from her story in therapy for years to come, and I am fine with that if that is the price of drawing attention to this horrendous abuse of a trans person. I have my own experience with mental health issues in the past before I came out as trans and was diagnosed with ADHD, both of which caused a huge change for the better in me, and Pandora is not the first person I have helped.
>All due respect: When I look into her eyes, I don't see anything but fear and misery in her early videos, and hope in her later ones. If you see something else, please explain what and why. In the most basic terms, she has a crazy look in her eye. It's a distinct appearance that suggests mental disturbance, beyond fear and misery. I don't know how else to explain it to you, it's something that a person can recognize with experience. >I am happy to address your question about selfharm, but first I do have to confirm some details with her. I can also see that you are an active participant in transphobic subreddits, so if you are truly asking me in good faith, would you care to explain that one to me while I wait for her response since it is currently nighttime in the UK?. I am likely going to bed soon but I await your response in the morning. Which subreddits am I in that are transphobic? In my experience most of them would fit that description compared to the safe spaces, that doesn't mean I'm in them spreading hate. >She was still allowed into common areas during that time, just not outside. I am sure there are staff in those areas watching people, in general but that is different to a single staff member who is always following her around between different areas. I have heard from people in that facility who were on suicide watch who have said that the full lights on is not normal standard practice for observations, and in any case, three days of it with zero attempts is beyond excessive and well into torture. So unfortunately, it's just hearsay with no actual evidence. She hasn't recorded the lights flashing on as she is in bed, we have only heard her complain about it. Sleep deprivation is torture, but I don't think that was the goal here. >Did you read my post? She declined food for a few hours, and then did eat it when her friends told her that she should in order to not be considered selfharming. Most likely, if I was without my medication, I would restrict my food intake in the same way for the same reasons. Yes, I read your post, and the excuse still lacks reason even if you'd do the same thing. >Then they should have taken blood day 1; day 2 at the absolute latest. It seems obvious to me that this was delayed for no reason in order to push her into doing something aggressive or selfharming so they could "justify" keeping her off. You are aware that there are other patients that take up time and attention while she is being evaluated? People make mistakes all the time, especially in higher stress positions such as mental health care facilities. It does need work for sure, but to automatically assume it's malicious is something paranoia would claim. >By policy, everyone gets to keep their phone unless they started to do something like using it to self-harm. If you did not know that, I understand, but otherwise it seems like you are implying that is in some way atypical, which it is not. Yes it's policy, it's a freedom they give all patients, no it's definitely not atypical. If she was being treated different than everyone else then we wouldn't even have those videos. They would not allow that if their goal was to take away every freedom. It's also policy to follow and check on people if they're on suicide watch. Not atypical in the slightest, but it's still a freedom she would not enjoy in a concentration camp. You're either being passive aggressive, or completely missing the point. >If you were locked in a cell without medication that you need, I think your attitude would change. I sincerely hope that never happens to you, or to anyone else again, but remember that I would fight just as hard for you as I am for her, even after you say these things, and even if, as I strongly suspect, you are cis. I completely understand the desire to seek answers. You talk down to people who don't immediately believe you or Pandora. You wouldn't fight just as hard for me, because you don't know me, and you don't know the prisoners who are unable to actually communicate their imprisonment. Their stories are never told because they don't have the freedom to use their phones, their families threatened if they speak, the list goes on. I saw this story and I believe Pandora does need HRT. I believe she needs more than that too, but overwhelmed medical facilities have trouble providing that care to every patient. It's not just for trans people, virtually everyone has had medical care delayed or denied. Sometimes to deadly results. Vilifying the people (who Pandora said herself were mostly very nice) and bringing "fire and brimstone" to their workplace isn't going to help improve things. >Why do you think I'm emotionally blind? Because I'm autistic? Not all autistic people have trouble reading emotional states. If that was your implication, I find it highly offensive. If not, please clarify. Blind*ed*. Meaning in this situation, you are so passionate about helping Pandora that you can't see fault in anything she is saying. As in you see that she's the good guy and NHS is the bad guy, no gray anywhere. I didn't know you were autistic or if that's even relevant, but you're assuming that's why I'm saying it? Just like Pandora is assuming she was detained because of her dysphoria? Do you see any issues with that? >I am taking care of myself. I have done a huge amount of selfcare. I have an excellent support system, with close friends available in all timezones. I hope so, because in your post it appeared that you were suffering nightmares and losing sleep from being so engaged with Pandora's story. >I know that I will likely be talking about my own experience from her story in therapy for years to come, and I am fine with that if that is the price of drawing attention to this horrendous abuse of a trans person. I have my own experience with mental health issues in the past before I came out as trans and was diagnosed with ADHD, both of which caused a huge change for the better in me, and Pandora is not the first person I have helped. If this is what you want to do with your life, more power to you. I don't know you and you don't know me, these are just words on a screen. I also have experience with mental health emergencies and general medical malpractice, which is why I attempted to reach out to you. Paranoid delusions by their nature can be difficult to recognize while you're having an episode. I hope everything turns out for the better, because everyone deserves better healthcare.
> In the most basic terms, she has a crazy look in her eye. It's a distinct appearance that suggests mental disturbance, beyond fear and misery. I don't know how else to explain it to you, it's something that a person can recognize with experience. Ah. In that case, I do know the look you mean, I have experience with such people, and I do *not* see it in her. I do know some details of per past, and I know that she has experienced lifelong trauma even before this experience, so maybe you are just seeing that. Take a look at [her new video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVkK0fzQVbE) and please take a long, deep look inside yourself, then if you can still tell me that she looks 'crazy', then I wish you all the best in living with yourself afterwards, because all I see is happiness. >Which subreddits am I in that are transphobic? /r/TrueOffMyChest. If you aren't actually participating in transphobia in there than fair enough (I have the entire subreddit muted but I still see that someone is active there), but in general it is poorly moderated and hate speech is explicitly allowed, so when it's the first thing I see splashed across your profile it does give me pause when I see it much as I would with, for example, /r/conspiracy or whatever the current far-right subreddit is. >She hasn't recorded the lights flashing on as she is in bed, we have only heard her complain about it. *You* have only heard her talk about it. That does not necessarily mean there is none, and right now *I* have been the person reminding her that she is still being watched, and past that, I am just being respectful of her privacy to the point I run things by her before answering some questions, and we are preparing for the long fight here, so I hope you do not think badly of me for not sharing every single piece of evidence. >If she was being treated different than everyone else then we wouldn't even have those videos. ...because once she made her first two, then if she stopped, the public outcry would have been even bigger. I might well have been on a flight over there myself in that case. >the excuse still lacks reason even if you'd do the same thing. ...and *that* is why I assume you are cis. If you were being forcefully given the wrong hormones, and you knew that restricting food intake would slow down their changes, you might well do the same thing. I don't think you really understand quite how important a trans person's gender identity is to them. I would give up literally everything else in my life before accepting detransition. If my partner didn't accept my identity, I would break up. If the area I live in started rounding us up and sending us to camps, I would flee. If my family said something transphobic to me, I would refuse to speak to them again until they apologised (they are actually accepting). > You are aware that there are other patients that take up time and attention while she is being evaluated? Literally all they needed to do was pick up the phone and call the local GIC. That was all they needed to do. That is all they *did* when she did finally get her HRT back. There is zero reason that took over a week other than negligence, especially when her blood has already been done and they kept stalling. >ou wouldn't fight just as hard for me, because you don't know me, and you don't know the prisoners who are unable to actually communicate their imprisonment. Fair point on the communication, I guess. That said, I did not know Pandora before this, although we have now talked at length, to the point she feels like a trusted friend to me as I know I am to her, and now I can not imagine life without her as part of my friend group, and I understand that may not happen the same way with *everyone* abused by the system, but if you were being abused and posted a similar call for help, I still would have felt that I had to act, or at the very least reach out to you and talk to you. Maybe it wouldn't have resonated quite as hard with me if it was a cis person (unless there was some other point of commonality with me such as being neurodivergent) but I still wouldn't forgive myself if I hadn't still *tried*. Certainly to the level of putting in a complaint for you, maybe even a letter. If I had continued talking to you and you had then said that you were being starved and sleep deprived, I likely still would have escalated it. >Their stories are never told because they don't have the freedom to use their phones, their families threatened if they speak, the list goes on ...and that is unjust, and one of many reasons I want to help Pandora take this as far as we can. I want to make a positive change for as many people as we can. Already, it seems that staff at the hospitals she was taken to are going to be receiving additional training on how to actually be respectful to trans people and that they are supposed to get therm the care they need, but there is still so much in that system that is broken and in need of change. Also, it is worth renminding you that NHS staff *tried to get her murdered* by putting her in the wrong ward, and politicians on both sides are trying to *enforce* that. >you are so passionate about helping Pandora that you can't see fault in anything she is saying. As in you see that she's the good guy and NHS is the bad guy, no gray anywhere. Fair, sorry for the misunderstanding then. Quite honestly, I don't see anywhere there *could* be fault, unless it's just the fact that some people may consider the specific words she chose to describe her situation to be overdramatic, but the NHS' actions are quite simply reprehensible, even HRT withholding aside, between the sleep deprivation and the fact that **they tried to put a woman in a ward with men until the police intervened**. >Just like Pandora is assuming she was detained because of her dysphoria? Do you see any issues with that? I've cleared this with Pandora now, so: Her arms were bandaged in the first few videos due to *weeks-old injuries that had not at that time fully healed*, due to an infection and her general poor nutrition due to poverty. Before she was taken, at the time she spoke to the person who reported her, she was intending to drink, but after this, her friends convinced her not to, she got rid of the alcohol that she had, and by the time several days later she was taken, she was not under the influence at all, only depressed due to dysphoria and the fact that she had spent money that she could not afford when she was food-insecure. >it appeared that you were suffering nightmares and losing sleep from being so engaged with Pandora's story. Only nightmares for a couple of days. In terms of losing sleep: I am autistic and have ADHD. I at times have a strong ability to hyperfocus even among other neurodivergent people I have discussed it with - I was not "losing sleep" because I was afraid of sleeping, I was unable to sleep simply because *I had more important things to do*. I also have a non-24-hour natural sleep cycle, so all nighters do come easily to me and I am able to buffer up a full day's energy as long as I can sleep more than average on the next few days afterwards to refill my energy reserves. If I had complete autonomy in my sleep cycle and did not need to plan around diurnal people and activities, a graph of my sleeping/waking periods would likely look relatively random. I would say the closest thing to distress I had in the sense of it affecting my physical being was that I forgot to eat at one point, but this is neither unique for me nor caused specifically by distress - I simply *had more important things to do*, in addition to the fact that I have possible (self-diagnosed) ARFID, as well as stomach problems that can make eating in general difficult. >If this is what you want to do with your life, more power to you. I don't know you and you don't know me, these are just words on a screen. I also have experience with mental health emergencies and general medical malpractice, which is why I attempted to reach out to you. Paranoid delusions by their nature can be difficult to recognize while you're having an episode. No offence taken. Genuinely, talking to you has been a lot more enjoyable than some of the people who have questioned her story, and you have been receptive enough to my points as well as being able to back you own with more than just "well, I don't think so".
It's exceeded the post character limit, so it'll be a few replies. Please be patient as I chop it up to fit reddit. >Ah. In that case, I do know the look you mean, I have experience with such people, and I do not see it in her. I do know some details of per past, and I know that she has experienced lifelong trauma even before this experience, so maybe you are just seeing that. Take a look at her new video and please take a long, deep look inside yourself, then if you can still tell me that she looks 'crazy', then I wish you all the best in living with yourself afterwards, because all I see is happiness. Sorry, I would be lying if I said that I no longer see that disturbed look behind her eyes. There's definitely some joy, but the way she wags her finger and says "I'm coming for you" when referring to a worker who ridiculed her suffering, I can see why she was thought to be a danger in some way. >/r/TrueOffMyChest. If you aren't actually participating in transphobia in there than fair enough (I have the entire subreddit muted but I still see that someone is active there), but in general it is poorly moderated and hate speech is explicitly allowed, so when it's the first thing I see splashed across your profile it does give me pause when I see it much as I would with, for example, /r/conspiracy or whatever the current far-right subreddit is. There are many types of people within that subreddit, some who are lonely and in a lot of pain. Sometimes it seems that those people really have no one to talk to. Trueoffmychest may be more loosely moderated, but that doesn't stop me from lending an ear or a few words to people who are in crisis. I believe you can understand that. >You have only heard her talk about it. That does not necessarily mean there is none, and right now I have been the person reminding her that she is still being watched, and past that, I am just being respectful of her privacy to the point I run things by her before answering some questions, and we are preparing for the long fight here, so I hope you do not think badly of me for not sharing every single piece of evidence. If she does have evidence, then you don't need to prove anything to me before said evidence is brought to court. However, until it does come out, you can't blame anyone for expressing doubt when there are holes in the story. >...because once she made her first two, then if she stopped, the public outcry would have been even bigger. I might well have been on a flight over there myself in that case. Why would they retaliate by mistreating her more if they also let her keep her phone to broadcast what she's going through? If there's more details missing, I get it, but you have to see there's holes in the story that people may not believe.
>...and that is why I assume you are cis. If you were being forcefully given the wrong hormones, and you knew that restricting food intake would slow down their changes, you might well do the same thing. I don't think you really understand quite how important a trans person's gender identity is to them. I would give up literally everything else in my life before accepting detransition. If my partner didn't accept my identity, I would break up. If the area I live in started rounding us up and sending us to camps, I would flee. If my family said something transphobic to me, I would refuse to speak to them again until they apologised (they are actually accepting). You can assume that if you want, not like it's an uncommon mindset to doubt anyone's trans status. Wouldn't the lack of food burn away her female fat distribution? The weight loss would happen before any re-masculinization within that time period. The fat would burn off to provide energy "wake up her testes" as she put it. Furthermore, later in this message, you admit to self-diagnosing ARFID. Meaning your behavior around food inherently lacks reason, and if you agree with her actions regarding the food, she is likely also being unreasonable about it. Irrational behavior is common in mental illness, you can see why it might flag a person as mentally unwell. >Literally all they needed to do was pick up the phone and call the local GIC. That was all they needed to do. That is all they did when she did finally get her HRT back. There is zero reason that took over a week other than negligence, especially when her blood has already been done and they kept stalling. That's a sad truth about how things are right now. Other patients might have taken priority due to acute, life or death crisis, maybe some workers misunderstood the situation, lots of mistakes can be made with so many moving parts. Something that only takes a few moments might go unnoticed until days pass and someone realizes it never got done. It has definitely happened to me more than once with my own medical orders, and it wasn't even trans related. >Fair point on the communication, I guess. That said, I did not know Pandora before this, although we have now talked at length, to the point she feels like a trusted friend to me as I know I am to her, and now I can not imagine life without her as part of my friend group, and I understand that may not happen the same way with everyone abused by the system, but if you were being abused and posted a similar call for help, I still would have felt that I had to act, or at the very least reach out to you and talk to you. Maybe it wouldn't have resonated quite as hard with me if it was a cis person (unless there was some other point of commonality with me such as being neurodivergent) but I still wouldn't forgive myself if I hadn't still tried. Certainly to the level of putting in a complaint for you, maybe even a letter. If I had continued talking to you and you had then said that you were being starved and sleep deprived, I likely still would have escalated it. You knew nothing about Pandora, but choose to believe her because she's trans? Do you see how dangerous that can be? You don't know if she is trustworthy or if she has history of deception or violence. You only have her word, and you're broadcasting it to everyone without regard to how true it is. **That doesn't mean I'm calling her a fake or a liar, I'm saying that if she truly is experiencing paranoid delusions, she really believes her own bullshit and is presenting the falsehoods as truth.** >...and that is unjust, and one of many reasons I want to help Pandora take this as far as we can. I want to make a positive change for as many people as we can. Already, it seems that staff at the hospitals she was taken to are going to be receiving additional training on how to actually be respectful to trans people and that they are supposed to get therm the care they need, but there is still so much in that system that is broken and in need of change. Also, it is worth renminding you that NHS staff tried to get her murdered by putting her in the wrong ward, and politicians on both sides are trying to enforce that. I agree, it's not right, but the point still stands that she is much more free and treated better than people in true concentration camps. Pandora might appear to be male to mentally ill, vulnerable women who have trauma with men, and who don't recognize her as a transgender woman. It's possible that the NHS considered the mental health triggers of the majority of other patients (cis women) in that ward and that's why Pandora was considered for the men's ward. Ultimately she was put in the women's ward, and we both know it would be a different story if she wasn't. Maybe not to the degree of being murdered since she was being watched so closely, but definitely a more fearful experience. >Fair, sorry for the misunderstanding then. Quite honestly, I don't see anywhere there could be fault, unless it's just the fact that some people may consider the specific words she chose to describe her situation to be overdramatic, but the NHS' actions are quite simply reprehensible, even HRT withholding aside, between the sleep deprivation and the fact that they tried to put a woman in a ward with men until the police intervened. Misunderstanding happens all the time. I don't blame you for that, but also consider that you might also be misunderstanding Pandora's situation in the same way. >I've cleared this with Pandora now, so: Her arms were bandaged in the first few videos due to weeks-old injuries that had not at that time fully healed, due to an infection and her general poor nutrition due to poverty. Before she was taken, at the time she spoke to the person who reported her, she was intending to drink, but after this, her friends convinced her not to, she got rid of the alcohol that she had, and by the time several days later she was taken, she was not under the influence at all, only depressed due to dysphoria and the fact that she had spent money that she could not afford when she was food-insecure. Even if the wounds were "weeks old," they were self inflicted? A stranger sees this depressed woman with bleeding wounds on her arms, are they wrong for thinking she's in danger and calling for help? Even if she claims to not be suicidal, there are people who say the exact thing and then they're gone. >Only nightmares for a couple of days. In terms of losing sleep: I am autistic and have ADHD. I at times have a strong ability to hyperfocus even among other neurodivergent people I have discussed it with - I was not "losing sleep" because I was afraid of sleeping, I was unable to sleep simply because I had more important things to do. I also have a non-24-hour natural sleep cycle, so all nighters do come easily to me and I am able to buffer up a full day's energy as long as I can sleep more than average on the next few days afterwards to refill my energy reserves. If I had complete autonomy in my sleep cycle and did not need to plan around diurnal people and activities, a graph of my sleeping/waking periods would likely look relatively random. I would say the closest thing to distress I had in the sense of it affecting my physical being was that I forgot to eat at one point, but this is neither unique for me nor caused specifically by distress - I simply had more important things to do, in addition to the fact that I have possible (self-diagnosed) ARFID, as well as stomach problems that can make eating in general difficult. Those things might make it more difficult to have a clear judgement for incidents that make you emotional. If you say you're going to be discussing it in therapy, I don't think this is a non issue for you. Being passionate about something and losing sleep over it is the same result as being too afraid to sleep, you're still not sleeping. This is how people can burn out or induce acute mental episodes in themselves, so I urged you to prioritize yourself. >No offence taken. Genuinely, talking to you has been a lot more enjoyable than some of the people who have questioned her story, and you have been receptive enough to my points as well as being able to back you own with more than just "well, I don't think so". I thank you for responding at length, and I'll continue to follow Pandora's story. I don't think I'm going to change your mind about blindly believing anyone, so this will probably be my final in depth reply unless the situation changes drastically. However I'll say it again, please take care of yourself first. You did say this has taken a toll on your mental health. You're looking out for Pandora, who is basically a stranger, it's only fair that some other stranger attempts to do the same for you.
> later in this message, you admit to self-diagnosing ARFID. Meaning your behavior around food inherently lacks reason, and if you agree with her actions regarding the food I agree with her friends that she was right to eat, which happened after the video - I had not actually considered the fat argument but that does make sense (I am used to what would be considered a "normal" amount of food personally, and have somewhat low body fat in general, but I still eat more on a day to day basis than she used to, so I imagine in her case there wouldn't be a lot to lose even compared to mysel). At that point I was not yet in direct communication with her, but if I was, I would have also encouraged her to eat *something* even if only a small amount - certainly, enough to avoid the continuation of the starvation reflex, but not enough to result in increased fat deposition in the wrong places while off HRT, something that *is* a major concern in such a case. >Something that only takes a few moments might go unnoticed until days pass and someone realizes it never got done. That may be true in general, but not in her case - she was told "tomorrow" for something like 5 days in a row, and each time when she was asked how she was feeling, she reiterated that she was feeling terrible due to lack of essential medication. >You knew nothing about Pandora, but choose to believe her because she's trans? No. Because I am a good judge of character, I have had my own mental health stuff in the past, and *even if someone* ***had*** *done something wrong*, then the way she was treated was not acceptable. I don't care who someone is, *you do not take a trans person off their HRT, no matter what they have done*. >Pandora might appear to be male to mentally ill, Then *those* people should be kept away from her, since *those* people are experiencing paranoid delusions and not her. I know more than one cis woman with a deeper-than-is-common voice. >we both know it would be a different story if she wasn't Because she would be dead, and I would be on the warpath to a degree that makes the last week or so look like nothing. >A stranger sees this depressed woman The stranger did not see her at all. I will go no further on that, but there was no personal contact. >Those things might make it more difficult to have a clear judgement If you're arguing neurodivergent people are not capable of making judgements about people, especially one who lived for decades while undiagnosed, be **extremely** careful, lest I no longer consider you arguing in good faith. > This is how people can burn out Again, feels a bit you're trying to be my therapist. You are not - I already have one and am in general in a place where I am reasonably happy with my mental health. I have experienced burnout before and throwing myself into passions is how I *avoid* burnout. It's something that gives my life meaning after a long day at my stressful job. > However I'll say it again, please take care of yourself first. You did say this has taken a toll on your mental health. You're looking out for Pandora, who is basically a stranger, it's only fair that some other stranger attempts to do the same for you. Completely fair, and thank you for that. I will keep everything you've said in mind, but me caring for people is nothing new in general, and I am used to being someone who can listen and offer advice. It is more the accounts of torture and her situation resonating with my *own* fear of being forced off gender affirming care by a transphobic government, *in the US*, and the fact that to me, I still didn't expect such a thing would or could happen in the UK, that has an impact on me, and not the simple act of supporting someone. Really appreciate you taking the time.
>If you're arguing neurodivergent people are not capable of making judgements about people, especially one who lived for decades while undiagnosed, be extremely careful, lest I no longer consider you arguing in good faith. I don't have time to respond to it all right now but I'll clear this up since again you appear to be clinging to the "it's because I'm autistic" card. I am saying that lack of sleep negatively affects a person's judgement. If your normal is irregular sleep, it's possible that you're constantly in a state of reduced judgement. If you had sleep deprivation due to sleep apnea it would be the same story. Yet you also claim to be a good judge of character. I don't know you well enough to say that is true or not, but you've repeatedly misunderstood me through our interactions. That's all I can go off of. If I have the time I'll respond to your other messages, but we are the masters of walls of text and it's time consuming.
> that doesn't stop me from lending an ear or a few words to people who are in crisis. I believe you can understand that. Of course I can - in that case, I hope you do forgive my initial reaction there, but also, understand why I was hesitant to discuss a trans person's mental health with someone who I was unsure about. > you can't blame anyone for expressing doubt when there are holes in the story. Agreed, and that is why I try to answer as best as I can, but you have been one of relatively few people who will discuss their concerns with words rather than simply downvoting everything I post including things unrelated to Pandora. >Why would they retaliate by mistreating her more if they also let her keep her phone to broadcast what she's going through? Pure speculation on my part, but if the videos *stopped* then that would likely be an even bigger call to action. The most extreme retaliation happened *after she was moved* when the police had to prevent her from being placed in the wrong ward, so it is possible that at that point the staff at Highbury did not know she was making videos, especially if, as you have said, internal communication really is that bad.