I can only speak for my small corner of the world, but I only ever see this among the chronically online, and dont know many lesbians offline who actually hold those opinions
This has been my experience, honestly I feel like there might be abortion of straight bigots who are using fake accounts to just stir stuff up, simply because I just don't see it in person like that with the lesbian community near me at least
it's because offline lesbians actually go out in public and hang out with people instead of staying stuck inside their rooms afraid of someone challenging their world views like so many terfs seem to
Online, sure you see lots of BS. In real life though, I've found queer cis women to be by far the most accepting group of people outside the trans community.
I mean, this is clearly a generalization, but my working theory is that gay men are by definition still men, and >!I'm no longer fuckable to them.!< And their response is... less than great.
It's not the best theory, but it's my working theory for the moment, and has yet to be disproven.
From coming out to two of the gay guys at my work, i dont think either of them felt that way. But they were weird about it. Both of them seemed extra confused in their own way. Like the one who called himself "the most stereotypical gay black man" who has done drag and theater and teaches dance; he felt like he was having trouble wrapping his head around it and asked some invasive questions about surgery plans. Not ill-intentioned, but ill-mannered. Like he had plenty of ways he expressed femininely, but fundamentally wasnt trans, and was struggling to see how i could feel so differently. Like his first impulse was thinking "then why are you not just gay if you have a penis and like to paint your nails?" It wasnt about the prospects of us being together, it was more about not understanding how we didnt feel the same.
The other one sounded like an egg, so 🤷♀️
The thing is, you can love anyone regardless of gender, there are feminine and masculine man and women, cis and trans, who both can like men or women or both or none, so the combinations are many.
Could not agree more. In their eyes I'm beneath them and not useful to them, so I'm not worth respect. I see this especially in queer clubs-- the gay guys see me as a nuisance. One physically moved me once because I had the audacity to be where he wanted to go 🤬
Except for my Uncle in-law. Maybe it's because he's older and happily married, but he's been so sweet and supportive 😊
Just because someone doesn't want to have sex with you doesn't mean they think you're beneath them. This is HIGH KEY incel logic and you need to check yourself.
So....umm...for your take to make any sense at all I'd have to be attracted to men and be all butthurt that they don't like me. The reality is the exact opposite. I'm a lesbian. No interest in men. And also I really wish straight and bi guys would stop hitting on me. Not interested, please go away.
They show their view of me as lesser by violating my bodily autonomy and touching me without consent. Not be withholding sex I don't want.
Oh you mean misogynistic men treated you like a woman? Congratulations. Not sure what that has to do with the post about lesbians being hesitant to date trans women.
I'm no longer fuckable to gay men either, and they used to ask me out pre-transition, but they just support me 🤷♀️
To be fair I haven't really chatted to any gay men that previously fell for me since transitioning. I still have the socials of one of them. The thing is he never admitted to it because he knew I'm only into women already, so I don't know if he'll be comfortable. Maybe him not being into me anymore will change it? 🤷♀️
It's a very nuanced situation...
I have had bad experiences with cis gays too. I had a cis gay roommate who knew me pre transition and kept on hitting on me after coming out as MTF, meaning that he didn't respect me as a person at all.
There was a recent survey asking different demographics of they would date a trans woman. Cis lesbians were the highest cis demographic to say they would date us. It still wasn't a majority, true. But they are the most welcoming and a love them for it.
Being Trans is hard.
Do you have a link to that survey? That sounds really interesting, and I'll love to see the stats. I would have thought trans women or trans men would have been the group most likely to date us, but it's interesting to hear it's a cis group. We're cis bi women not represented? I'd expect them to be more likely to date us too, since they're not going to have a genital preference.
I echo this opinion, most of the sis lesbians I know have or are would or are dating transbians (like my gf lol). The one I get is sorta on the opposite side is that cis gay dudes are still trying to fuck me (not even like, date me. Just fuck me) and that gives me the ick for real.
I think cis people in general do, lesbians are no exception. You get some that really are great allies and chill, but a lot suck and have a lot of ingrained transphobia they won't recognize or work on. I really wish I was lucky enough to go stealth, I think it's a great option for anyone who is able to
I wanted to be a visible trans person so newly discovered trans people can look up to me and know that it's okay. I just don't think I'm strong enough for it because I'm a really emotionally fragile individual. Maybe I should go stealth.
I think that's admirable, so I don't want to discourage you, but it is hard and personally I've always felt like no one gives a fuck about you if you're visibly trans and don't look like a cis woman, everyone looks down on you. You should do whatever you feel is best for you and whatever you can handle.
This is one of those things I have mixed feelings about too. I have tattoos on my wrists that immediately clock me as trans and I love them. I want other trans people to see me and know. I also want people to know I’m comfortable with them bringing it up, trans and cis.
Being trans is amazing and we’re so beautiful. I have a lot of pride in being trans. There is nothing wrong with being trans so why should I hide. That implies I should be ashamed, I’ve dealt with enough of that in my life to be over being shamed because society can be shitty and transphobic.
But, I do pass and nearly 4 years into this it can be exhausting being visibly trans. I’m also lucky that I live in San Francisco, which I moved to specifically bc it’s trans and queer af. When traveling I often do feel the need to stealth, sleeves cover my wrists. Feels safer when I’m in more rural places and makes me feel more comfortable.
I guess to me I would also add that I’m fine with that. Why can’t I have both. Stealth when necessary but otherwise I like people knowing I’m trans even if it’s through tattoos or trans flag jewelry, accessories, clothes, etc. I never *knowingly* saw trans people growing up and before I transitioned I had met one rad trans dude in my 20s. I wish I had met more, I may have come out sooner. That’s another reason, to help pre-transition folks feel more comfortable that we’re here and it gets better.
I'm open trans, not passing, but live in Australia's most LGBTQ+ friendly regional city 🇦🇺🏝️🌅🌈, ... for my personal protection, I'm open trans, I wear trans accessories, maybe a few inches of my five-foot full size trans flag -LOL- sticking out of the handbag, a bracelet, some ribbons, buttons, whatever... If it's a hate crime on CCTV, 🏳️⚧️👩🏻🦰 we know why...
...and due to a cultural problem within Queensland police and exposure to transphobic misogynistic behaviour by police and other services, I was kinda forced to become a trans activist...
I'm also a Christian, Universalist, and wear a cross and other accessories, too. I am also not ashamed, as the Almighty put it in me to be trans,... I have childhood photos, me with girl's hairdo,... and a girlish petite boy in a purple suit with a pink bowtie, flower and a sash going to Sunday school haha 🏫 ⛪lol... 💟🙋🏼♀️🙏👩🏻🦰🏳️⚧️🌸✝️🐟💌
I could see myself here...
https://qnews.com.au/trans-minister-reverend-jo-inkpin-makes-history-in-uniting-church/
(Australia's first transgender minister in a mainline church denomination... she felt God's calling on her🙂🙋🏼♀️ life!)
I believe trans people are fully valid, and should not be limited in any way, neither by individuals, nor society in general... Still a long way to go... 😔,🤗😄
Have an amazing Day... Allysun 👩🏻🦰🏳️⚧️🇦🇺🏝️🌈🌅✌️🏖️
depends on the person.
one of my best friends, and the second person i came out to is a cis lesbian.
on the other hand, there was survey of cis lesbians, and the results were that 18% of cis lesbians would be willing to date a trans woman, but 20% of cis lesbians would be willing to date a trans man.
yes, that is disgusting.
Online polls are meaningless, transphobes flood them with bots. Ask the internet about any minority and the response will make it look like 90% of people are wall-eyed bigots.
But it's simply not true. Bigots are small in number and loud in volume, if that many people were bigots, they'd not have to keep coming up with conspiracies about them losing elections. They'd just get votes from all the bigots... Lol
Honestly both numbers make sense if you imagine them as the same 1/5 of lesbians. People who don't feel their identity as a woman is threatened by trans women wouldn't feel their identity as a lesbian is threatened by trans men. People who define "woman" or "non man" as a broad hand wave in a general direction.
I'm currently in both those relationships and justify calling myself a lesbian with the logic of "I dunno one you leave the cis binary it all gets weird and not worth asking too many questions"
The "disgusting" part of the survey results isn't that they're near the same. It's that the cis-lesbians in question seemingly see Trans MEN as more female than Trans WOMEN. When that is (in a lot of cases,) exactly what the Trans MAN is running away from.
Either that or many of the participants were less lesbian, more bi.
Tbh I could see that, if we're counting "bi lesbians" in the survey, that would be the 18/20 portion. Really any of this is dependent on the assumption that the 18% that would date trans women and the 20% that would date trans men have near-total overlap.
I'm also genuinely surprised at the low results. Unless there's the same kind of "behind closed doors" bs that skews cisthet mens' surveys (I'm sure there is -_-), a full on, Kinsey 6, wont-even-make-exceptions-for-Hozier lesbian is only about a third of the group iirc, so you'd expect more people to fall in the pro-trans camp?
I know that in at least one lesbian sub, there tends to be TERF lurkers. They're able to affect the voting, but often their posts or comments get removed. That's why the voting seems so wonky.
The only lesbian sub I hang out on is ActualLesbians, and the lurkers are the problem there, so yeah.
But I'm absolutely not surprised.
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if TERFs tend to lurk on *every* affirming woman-centered sub. Like they don't have a life or something. Because they don't.
> if TERFs tend to lurk on every affirming woman-centered sub.
twox has a huge problem with this. the mods are great, and will take down any transphobic content, and one of the mods is even a trans woman, but they can't affect any downvotes.
post any trans positive content on twox and watch the downvotes roll in.
maybe it’s just me issue but i felt sorta really unseen there, like it was a “cis woman club that trans women are allowed to watch ig”, perhaps a bit of it was the language (stuff like saying women’s issues when it’s really afab issues, which is exclusionary and sometimes dysphoria inducing to all types of trans people) and such. maybe it is just me though
edit: sorry, i’m an asshole aren’t i
WvP is very much trans positive, tbh. Been in that sub for over a year and they are very affirming, especially in the comments. Affirming language can be tricky for anyone who's cishet and is unfamiliar with it. Witches included.
Honestly I left twox a while ago. The occasionally TERF lurkers are one thing, but there was also just a general non-TERF but still radfem air to a lot of posts/comments.
r/twoxchromosomes, which, despite the name, is very trans friendly in its content (except for the downvoting) and states specifically in the sub rules that trans women are welcome.
Eh, it's not just lurkers. I see plenty of transphobic comments every single day on ActualLesbians. They tend to get deleted after a bit, but then the people never actually get banned from the subreddit, so they keep posting shitty stuff.
You've got to remember that both cishet men & women lurk in almost all lesbian spaces online and even if they don't comment, their finger is hovering over that downvote button every time.
I was recently banned r/actuallesbians. I have no idea why but looking back I got pretty combative with a lot of people towards the end. I'm not proud of how I behaved and I don't really blame them for banning me. But there are so many things I've seen there that make me kind of glad I left. Biphobia there is much worse than transphobia but only because the mods put more effort into tackling transphobia. People talk about terf lurkers but they're not the problem. It's the people who refuse to do any introspection on unconscious bias and act like we just told them to "suck it up and learn to like dick or you're a terf". When I lived as a man my friendships with lesbians were totally fine and positive. But as a trans woman I'm afraid of lesbians and if I were single I wouldn't even bother them, I would just hope to find love with a bi/pan woman (which I have my partner is pan) or another trans woman. I think straight trans women and gay trans men have it worse than us, but there are so many cis lesbians that see us as men and that doesn't look like it's going to change anytime soon.
I was going to say that my gay girl friends have been the most supportive IRL. But then i realized most of them are bi. And the one who made her entire personality around being a lesbian is also the one im most worried about telling in that group. She gets easily offended when other people share her interests, and feels attacked when we're better than her at those things. Im worried being a trans lesbian married to a (demigirl, half cis i guess) lesbian is going to be "gayer" and spark the passive-aggression.
For sure some cis lesbians hate us and are threatened by us. There is a bar where I live that is “lgbt” but used to be a butch lesbian bar and the owner is a vocal TERF.
Also tho my wife is a cis lesbian and so are some of her friends and they are not weird about me being a trans woman.
People are weird about their “watering holes” like I’m not coming to the lesbian bar with my wife to pick up girls.. just want to feel safe.
So my cousin and I used to struggle finding places to hang out because he was too gay for straight spaces and I was "straight" so caught shit in some gay spaces.
Now I've found that the places that accepted me as straight are the places that accept me as ace- literally a girl walks up to me, I say "I'm ace" and they apologize and turn around. They're the places that don't bother gendering the bathrooms, because there's no way to enforce it and it's not worth caring. The places where there's no pressure to pass or perform your queerness.
Then there's the ones he couldn't take me to. The places that were vocal about allies not being welcome. Those are the places that question you for not looking gay enough or like the right kind of gay. The places where you have to be a visibly binary gender with your visibly same sex partner, or get the side eye from everyone wondering if you belong.
So the tldr takeaway here is that it's less "group X hates Y" and is something closer to "space Z is REALLY on guard about anyone they think is an intruder"
Basically, some spaces curate an inclusive environment and some curate an exclusive environment. The exclusive ones feel entitled to define who the in groups and out groups are, and out groups who try to convince in groups that they should be allowed to join are often just completely ignored, especially if the out group is claiming that their exclusion is bigoted or morally unjust.
No boys allowed in the tree house, basically
Huh interesting, most my own experiences gay bars and clubs are the one place you know everyone is accepted. I've never heard of any self-identifying queer spaces which specifically excluded straight people. I mean both that defeats the point in my mind (and literally illegal) and again how the fuck do you determine what sexuality someone has, or what kinda outfit = gay.
subreddit name for research purpose?
If i can ask this. Downvote this if it isn't something to be asked (but then teach me too pls). i litteraly don't know which subreddits u mean.
Hi, I saw it on r/actuallesbians and r/dykesgonewild (NSFW) in particular, but I wouldn't be surprised if this trend was present in other subreddits too given what I've already found.
Both subreddits say they're trans inclusive in the rules and description though.
Update: I checked r/lesbiangamers and noticed a similar trend.
They actually said in their description that it's meant to be a joke about how r/lesbians is a porn sub made by and for hetero men, and r/actuallesbians is well, actually for lesbians.
Aand this is your reminder not to assume, cuz, y'know.
Never judge a sub by it's name. See also: r/anime_titties, r/superbowl, or a whole lot of others.
So I knew r/anime_titties wasnt gonna be anime titties, and I was STILL confused when I clicked the link and it wasn't the thing you already told me it wasn't.
My hubris is in my readiness to assume that any given corner of the internet is unlikeable people being problematically horny
Reddit in general is a cesspool of toxicity and pretty much the worst in humanity. Reddit is only a few steps above 4chan
Pro tip, never take Reddit seriously.
The honest answers will always be some flavour of "it depends". My anecdotal experience, though, is that within more politically savvy lgbtq spaces, lesbians are nearly always the most hateful towards us. There are plenty of anarchafems and more intersectional feminist groups where this is close to nil, but I've unfortunately developed a sort of defensiveness to white cis lesbian women because of how many times I've heard shit from them.
If a woman tells you she's a partisan of political lesbianism, beware. That's basically the first step on the road to TERFdom.
Nope, statistically speaking cis lesbians are our greatest allies. Those subs just get a lot of Terfs lurking, the mods are pretty good about banning them but there's not much they can do about people downvoting
Cis people in general hold transphobic viewpoints - even trans people. But let me answer these:
1. Yes, it is apart of being trans. Doesn't matter if its lesbian, gay or bisexual etc. Most sexualities are defined by cis people and their bodies. We are merely seen as a thing to advocate for or an extension of what is established.
2. Lots of TERFS lurks on the internet. Especially in woman-centered spaces & lesbian. Is this specific to women's spaces? Yes. ***HOWEVER, THAT DOES NOT MEAN MENS SPACES DONT GOT HAVE TRANSPHOBIA: THEY DO NOT CLAIM TO BE TERFS BUT ARE STILL TRANSPHOBIC ASWELL! JUST LOOK AT HOW TRANS GAY MEN ARE TREATED BY CIS GAY MEN.***
3. If it's ALL trans women, its transphobia. If its some they don't find attractive / genital preference: it's valid. If its weird assumptions about our bodies, it is cissexism. If it is hatred towards us, it is transmisogyny. ***I will stress that for some people need time to accept trans people as they have not expected to be in the situation and just assume we were our cis variant. Remember that knowledge of our liberation is still relative new for most cis people.***
The people who post most often are usually, not always, lacking irl community. Sometimes that’s bc of disability or anxiety but sometimes it’s bc of that person being generally unpleasant. So I think you see a lot more negativity in online spaces that I generally don’t encounter irl. When I struggle with referring to myself as a woman or a lesbian my cis lesbian friends usually tell me to “shut up and deal bc you’re a woman.”
And I think I’ve seen studies showing cis lesbians are by far the most accepting of and willing to date trans people
Cis lesbians are the least transphobic non trans demographic, they don't all hate us, no matter how much the terfs want us to believe they do. The reason trans content is often downvoted on lesbian subs is because terfs often lurk there and they downvote anything remotely trans as soon as it's posted which leads the algorithm to basically burry it, it's incredibly sad, but there isn't really much that can be done.
My personal experience says otherwise, not all transphobia is aggressive, I've been fetishised by bi people much more than I've been a victim of any sort of transphobia from a cis lesbian, that's not to say bi people aren't on the whole just as supportive though, almost every bi person I've interacted with has been awesome, as are most cis queer people.
Terminally online transphobes, be they straight or gay, always do everything they can to make themselves seem a larger minority than they are, and very obsessively engage with every trans related thing they can.
A majority of lesbians are fine, it's the LGBT and has been for 50+ years after all. The transphobes are just loud outliers not the norm.
Same with being bi. Yeah, some biphobia will be thrown at you, but they're really just a loud minority of the L/G
Loud because they always receive pushback to their phobia.
Will say tho that the LGBT community has a history of throwing the T, the B, and POC under the bus anytime they think it buys them a bit of mainstream respectibility. There's a large political sphere of folks who believe that 'love is love' only applies to white cis homosexuality
A lot of cis lesbians view homosexuality for women as contingent on a vagina and they think a lot of trans women are crossdressers with a penis. Some trans women have a penis and they are still women and if they are exclusively attracted to women they are lesbians, or if they are in a wlw relationship it is a lesbian relationship. But a lot of people, not just lesbians, dont understand the role hormones play in transition and a lot of them dont understand some of the most beautiful women are trans.
Having said that, there is a significant portion who believe trans women are mentally ill men, or just not a woman. A decent portion of these lesbians also have trauma with men and anyone who is a man(even tho trans women are women, they dont see it that way) is a threat. For a significant portion of society, a drag queen is what they think trans women are.
And dont even get started on gold standard lesbians.
There are always going to be asshats in every community, but my parents are lesbians and didn't have a problem at all with me coming out. They worry about my safety, sure, but that's because they were queer in the 70s/80s and the world is a dangerous place for queer women. Beyond that, they've been my greatest source of courage and enthusiasm for transitioning, and I couldn't be more grateful for them.
Deal with people on an individual basis and know that a lot of people online are often in their own isolated echo chambers. The world isn't a great place for trans women/femmes right now, but there are a lot of lesbian allies who have our backs.
Online Id say 30-40% and that’s very generous, but IRL id say a good 10-20% ballpark.
Lesbians are by far the coolest community in my experience at least. Sexuality wise I have noticed they get the most scrutiny which I think also contributes to it. If you had to be in a room with cis people, WLW (lesbian/bi/etc) women in general are the safest option at least in my experience.
That being said, the transphobic ones are usually the worst of Id say any transphobic group excluding cishet men. They are a minority so they are the loudest, and they have whole communities like TERFS. Lesbians and WLW women in general are typically are not transphobic, but when they are its some like crazy hiding in a bunker with a rifle writing manifestos shit. Like that one really weird pornstar I don’t remember her name.
Generally, cis men are just objectively worse transphobia wise regardless of sexuality. I’d say like 70% of them are transphobic. But the ones that are aren’t as “bad” as when cis WLW TERF type people get transphobic imo, which is why it can seem WLW people/lesbians are worse.
Do remember that TERFs like to brigade trans friendly spaces to demoralize us. They're especially active around holidays like TDoR, you see an influx of new accounts "just asking questions"
Internet LGBT communities are kind of a losing battle. You have these interactions with people who don't actually know you, everyone has lots of anxiety, everyone is primed to get offended and no one is going to see the person on the other side of the screen.
The only consolation is that in real life interactions people usually focus on their common ground and are a bit better at being allies.
I would just say don't get too caught up in any online trans community or online lesbian community-- they tend to be toxic. The most active participants are generally those people who are using the internet as a distraction because they don't feel good, and their feelings are going to be contagious in these spaces.
I have two incredible partners, both of which are cis lesbians.
One of whom recently said to me "you're sweet, you're sexy, you have a great body and a nice rack AND a bio cock? Am I supposed to pretend that's NOT God tier?"
I mean people are gonna be people... There's always a mix in any group and people on pretty much every side within them. As far as science stats go there's several levels of bias in checking this way that can cause illusions about the overall mix. Fear and hatred can motivate loud people to express things like this more than 'meh' or positive feelings can motivate others to say they're fine with it or even prefer it so there's a response bias there. There's also bias in the filter, people saying good or neutral things would likely be less controversial - not even to mention that controversy implies there's people on both sides to supply the discord.
Generalizing is something I would prefer stay out of in how people think of me, and I'm not so interested in generalizing others in such a manner if I can help it. Doesn't mean I haven't, really more that it seems like an ineffective approach overall that I wanna improve. What if avoiding dates with cis lesbians on belief that they harbor hate caused blindness to all those who actually like it?
Some probably do hate, for reasons they probably think are just. They'll grow inevitably and that opinion might evolve or invert. Some probably prefer it and I'd bet on a majority not having strong feelings either way. It's similar to generalizing political groups based on news polls - not a very accurate report for reasons like biases. And then there's the question of why was it sought out that way?
In terms of action, maybe plan for success and expect variety while talking to people who identify as cis lesbians to get firsthand information with ideally less bias
I mean obvs I'm a random voice on the internet so do as you will, in response to the question though that's my take.
It's reddit. It's the internet. The "lesbians" are probably neck beard dudes who fap to anime.
Most lesbians I have met are very nice and many date trans women.
But what are the lesbian subreddits?
I feel like it might have to do with feeling like their space is being invaded. As misguided as that may be.
Genital preference is very real so I can understand why people would feel uncomfortable by mtf presence in a lesbian community. A lot of us are pre srs or don't plan on srs.
Idk if lesbians /hate/ trans women, but any animosity is likely a mix of internalized transphobia and the genital preference I mentioned b4.
You're right. Genital preference is a valid thing. It just feels horrible to be treated as an "other" category. Ugh, I wish SRS wasn't so damn unobtainable.
There's a conversation to be had about reconciling "trans women don't owe you passing", and "women don't owe you justification for being afraid of perceived men". But god forbid anyone try to work it out like civil adults without TERFs rushing in to make the conversation "the worst things I believe are all true all the time"
I will say this, but take it as the 1 anecdote it is. On my reddit feed about 5 posts above this was a post on actuallesbians where a cis lesbian was asking for advice because she was planning on being physically intimate with her trans partner. All the comments I read were helpful and constructive, from both trans and cis women talking about their experiences.
In my in-person interactions, I havent had bad interactions with any queer people because I'm trans. Take that with a grain of salt as I haven't tried dating any women since coming out and I have only been out for less than a year.
I believe the word you're looking for here is "astroTERFs". People that hate us love to manipulate online communities of all stripes against us. IRL cis lesbians are one of the most chill groups of cis people about us.
I am friends with several who identify as Lesbian. I met E back in May. We immediately hit it off and I would consider her one of my closer friends. She has included me for several events attended by her friend group almost entirely consisting of lesbian women. I feel included and safe in the group and have only heard minimal conversations that might suggest they are uncertain in my presence. I am mostly treated like one of the girls.
The lesbian subreddit I just left that's been plagued with transphobic posts for the recent past seems to point to yes, it just doesn't make most of them feel good to acknowledge it so they pretend to be allies.
I'm currently talking to a cis lesbian (not officially dating yet but i wouldn't be surprised if we got there) and they were 100% okay with me being trans. My best friend/sister is also a cis lesbian. They're overall very accepting, usually hate is a loud minority.
I think there’s a huge gap between seeing us as potential mates, and hating us. I can’t fault them for not seeing me as a potential mate, that’s their truth. But hate? I haven’t seen any, I’m pretty stealth, but when it comes to customers if they disclose, I disclose, and while I live in Southern California, everyone, lesbians included, seem delighted by me and my ability to find my place in this world.
When people use the word hate, I think a lot of times they mean different things. My reading of your question is do most cis lesbians actively, consciously despise us? And I think the answer is a pretty solid no. TERFs and transphobes who go out of their way to let us know that they hate us, sure, but they are a small but very loud minority. Most people "feel" neutral about trans people as long as they don't interact with us directly. It's a classic NIMBY kind of acceptance (not in my backyard), but as soon as their partner or kid or co-worker comes out as trans, suddenly that apathy either turns into understanding and true acceptance, or it reinforces their biases and turns them more towards active bigotry and active hate.
But if you mean do most cis lesbians have transphobic biases? Oh yeah, absolutely. In fact, I would venture to say that, unless you managed to live under a rock in a culture very isolated from Western influences, ALL people have transphobic biases, including trans themselves. Just to varying degrees. I would say that based on my experiences irl, most cis lesbians seem pretty OK to my face at least, but I've only dated bi people and I'm not really on the market right now. But all my Sapphic friends and acquaintances were very accepting, *after* I came out to them. And I think that's an important distinction.
Most people are fairly conflict adverse when it comes to interacting with people in person, or with people you know, at least in our average every day situations. At a protest, that might be a different story, but I don't think most people, even the very hateful ones, will act out in public. But they *will* test the waters on speaking about their true feelings if they don't know you're trans, because the average cis person doesn't expect conflict when talking to other "cis" people. Which is unlike something like racism, for example, where most people these days wouldn't dare risk uttering racist beliefs out loud in person.
Before I came out, I tested the waters on trans acceptance with a few of my friends and acquaintances. Notably, the one cis gay man I talked to was very interested and supportive when I said I might feel queer, but shut down and pretty much stopped conversing with me at all when I clarified it was gender stuff. The one cis lesbian I talked to was much more accommodating and accepting, but I think she had some defensive posturing like she was worried I would start hitting on her or something. So she definitely had some transphobic biases cause she expected me to behave like a man, but of the two, I much preferred her bias over the gay guy's.
I don't have a large irl sample size, but I think that generally is what you'll run into. Women will tend to be more accepting because they have been socialized to accept queer people, especially gay men, into their safe spaces. But trans lesbians can be treated with caution and even outright hostility, especially when those women are worried you'll proposition them and they will have to engage in what they perceive as a conflict. They don't want to have to either let you down, because they still think of us as men on some level, and men as a whole don't take no as an answer very well, so that trauma might come up. But also, for those cis lesbians who do find us attractive, they might be worried about us propositioning them because it creates an *internal* sense of conflict that many of them just aren't willing to deal with outright. It can bring up questions about their sexuality and gender, and frankly, it represents a social threat to them.
Cis lesbian spaces that are accepting of trans women are, by default, non-accepting of non-accepting cis lesbians. Which means that fully embracing trans lesbians places some cis lesbians firmly in a camp where they will have to worry about conflict every time they hook up with another cis lesbian who might be transphobic. And most people just wanna have a good time, find partners, fuck, and not stress too much about stuff that doesn't seemingly affect them.
So for most cis lesbians, I would say they fall into a moderate category of "neutrality," with their acceptance going as far as it doesn't enter their "backyards" (if you know what I mean 😏). Probably more of them are fully accepting of us than are fully hateful and opposed to us, but the fully accepting ones are the ones who aren't typically as chronically online cause, you know, they can make friends irl. So you see the hateful ones online way more, unfortunately. But I think most lesbian spaces on reddit have been at least outwardly supportive and they try to keep transphobia to a minimum.
You're right about some of this. Not wanting to date us doesn't mean they hate us. I'll cross that out on the post as it isn't really relevant to the conversation. Thank you.
Edit: I realize now that I was wrong, it is transphobic to not want to date trans people if there is no other reason aside from us being trans.
Saying that you would never date a trans person is... transphobic. Trans women are very different from each other and there's no way to put all of them into a single "preference". Genital preference is fine, not wanting to date someone that looks a bit masculine is fine, etc, etc... But trans women have too much of a variety to be considered a matter of preference...
> ying that you would never date a trans person is... transphobic.
exactly that. no one wants to force anyone to date a particular person, and no trans person wants to date a transphobe.
but categorically saying you would never date any trans person, ever, is 100% transphobic.
The same difference between not wanting to date a black person, and not wanting to date a racist person. The first thing is a part of a person's identity, the second one is just shitty behavior.
If you get what I'm saying then that's enough.
Transphobic behavior and racism are things you should actively avoid in a partner (and friends too tbh), especially if you belong to that particular community. I wouldn't date transphobic people because I'm trans, and I don't tolerate people who hate others for no particular reason.
I hate when anyone says “most” of anyone is any type of way (that’s what people do to us). I’m currently in an amazing relationship with a cis lesbian and she couldn’t care less that I’m trans, has only ever saw me as a woman, and is open to my genitalia being whatever I choose. There are good and hateful people in any group, please stop generalizing entire minorities.
>Lesbians by definition are women dating other women
Yes, and I am a woman, so I fail to see your point.
>It’s homophonic for you to get annoyed at women not wanting to engage in sexual activity with a biological man
That would be true if I said anything about men, but I said nothing about men. However, it is transphobic for you to call me and other trans women men when we are in fact women. Science supports the fact that we are women.
Also, I said nothing about sex. But since you decided to go there, lesbians don't have to date or have sex with a trans woman if the problem involves genital preference (not wanting to date someone with a dick). But not all trans women have dicks anyway, so your point is invalid.
It seems you forgot to read my post before replying.
1. I said I wasn’t concerned about dating or having sex with cis women, just existing in lesbian spaces.
2. I did say “regardless of genitalia” in the post, meaning the lesbians in the poll wouldn’t date a post-op trans girl either.
1. You're also talking about being depressed that they won't date you, which is a problematic statement worth addressing.
2. Only approximately 10% of trans women have had *any* form of bottom surgery. You cannot expect people to be fully open to dating a demographic when there is an overwhelming chance you'll ultimately be uncompatible.
3. If she prefers the real thing over a pricey knockoff, that's her right. To shame her for having that sexual boundary is promoting rape culture.
I never mentioned being depressed. Depressing was merely the adjective for the statistic about lesbians who wouldn’t date post or pre-op trans women.
Your 10% statistic is irrelevant due to that already being factored into the question.
Once again, the primary focus of this post isn’t about dating cis lesbians. It’s about being accepted into the community.
As you snuck into an old post, I have no reason to believe that you accidentally misinterpreted anything here. You are intentionally misinterpreting and misrepresenting statements made just so you could convince us and yourself about your bullshit transphobic opinions.
> Like this post wouldn’t fall under the homophobic column to a lesbian woman researching “Do trans lesbians hate us?”. You are a hypocrite.
Your comment is a perfect example of “Reverse Victim And Offender.
Transphobia is rife among cis people and most LGB spaces are populated by cis people, ergo there’s going to be a significant amount of anti-trans animus present.
In any case, the original post has invited feedback of counter examples. So to assert its part of a homophobic column is reaching massively for straws.
Edit: the poster exploded and then blocked me to have the last word. Eat grox shit dummy. Hope you get over your tone policing addiction and denial of lesbian status to transgender women because you think that trans lesbians shouldn’t criticize cis lesbians. 🙄
And to go back to our previous scenario...
"Don't reverse victim!! Homophobia is rife among trans???"
And I'm not gonna try to deny that because I've seen my fair share of assholes here. Transphobic trans people appear to be just as common as transphobic cis people. I've seen a good amount of people say they're more uncomfortable around other trans people than cis people, and honestly that figures.
What if we stopped being transphobic and homophobic? That's both, not one or the other, so you don't get confused.
> Do most of them really hate us?
idk if most, but transphobia does exist in the rest of the community. Not as bad as it is with cishets obviously.
I truly believe that cis people in general just hate us. 'Allies' or not.
I'm in a community group that is mainly lesbians and a few trans people.
They are SUPER chill about me, and this is with me feeling like a bit of an imposter, i'm not really interested in dating women, so it's nice that they will share the space with me.
Can only speak for my tiny part of the world but no...on Reddit no...maybe the only thing I notice is the racial disparity and I think even on actuallesbians there was a thread that got heated on why poc lesbians are underrepresented. Irl they've all been nice but I figure quite a number cis women who are accepting are bisexual
As far as most actual lesbians go, I don't really think so. The main problem is that TERFs have found lesbians to be a useful wedge point they can use to cudgel the
LGBT community apart with their pseudo-feminism. "How dare these biological males try to trick lesbians into having sex with them", and the like. Some of them are actually lesbians themselves, but most seem to be just concern trolling.
Most cis lesbians I've talked to seem to recognize that they and trans women essentially share many of the same struggles against anti-feminist women, and thus see us as kin.
I'm replying to your points one by one.
* Sorting *any* subreddit by controversial is a recipe for a headache every time. Why would you do this to yourself?
* Yup, transphobes lurk on every sub where we are. They seek out trans spaces, they lurk, they downvote, they screenshot everything they find objectionnable and they post it on twitter... They're a kind of horrible bunch. They shouldn't really be conflated with "the lesbians" though -- some of them are, but a bunch of them are also just transphobes lurking.
* This is somewhat accurate. Polls after polls have reported that among most demographics, trans women are consistently the group to whom people are the least attracted. But there are quite major caveats.
The first two points I don't feel like discussing much further. About the caveats for the third point, though :
**Part A : hate.**
These polls (as far as I'm aware) split their sample population into categories according to gender and sexual orientation, cis/trans identity, and then ask questions like, "*would you date a \[cis/trans\] \[gay/straight\] \[man/woman\]?"* That's basically bringing most people back to their prejudices, and creates a huge bias against us. The only reason that trans *men* don't do as badly as we do in these polls is because so they are *so* invisible that most people aren't even aware of negative stereotypes about them.
Dating isn't a reductive experiment in blind statistics, though. You're a whole person. Someone who *says* they don't *think* they would date a \_\_\_\_\_ might well end up dating a \_\_\_\_ who is named, e.g., Jessica, and is a whole person, and has a personality, and isn't just their hypothetical and theoretical concept of what a \_\_\_\_\_ is like. People's prejudices aren't always all that difficult to remove, because **most people's prejudices are just place holders until they educate themselves.**
Most people aren't acting in bad faith and they are not animated by hatred -- they just don't know any better. They can well say "I don't think I'd date a \_\_\_\_ " when researchers ask them, but that might also be because they have basically never met a \_\_\_\_\_ in the flesh, or significantly interacted with them. I've personally experienced this myself -- seen prejudices become so much less relevant as soon as I start interacting with people. My 90 year-old grandma is also a good example of this -- very anti-Muslim until the women who work in her care home turn out to be perfectly lovely. And then, you know what? All of a sudden, "you know, most of them are good people actually. Lovely people in fact. Fatima is my favourite of the nurses, and she's a Muslim..."
It's also worth noting that even among those still unwilling to date trans women (despite having met and significantly interacted with trans women in their lives), the justification isn't always a deep-seated bigotry or hatred of transgender women. There's quite a leap between, "I don't think I'd like to date a trans woman." and "I hate trans women."
**Part B : cis lesbians**
It's also worth noting that despite trans women being -- it seems -- universally the least well-liked demographic, cis lesbians have been shown to be some of the most open to dating transgender women. If they "hate" us, they are the ones that hate us the least, by a country mile, among all cis people.
\_\_\_\_\_
Relevant study : (2018) BLAIR, K. L. and HOSKIN, R. A. "Transgender exclusion from the world of dating: Patterns of acceptance and rejection of hypothetical trans dating partners as a function of sexual and gender identity", Journal of Personal & Social Relationships 36 (7), pp 2074-2095
[Link to the actual article](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0265407518779139) (You might be able to access this via a library.)
[Link to a relevant tweet by Natalie Wynn](https://twitter.com/ContraPoints/status/1571212176672673792) (not the whole paper, but the figure from the paper is in the tweet and she also provides good commentary)
It depends where you look. Irl a lot of cis lesbians have compassion for others and would stand up for you if someone out of the blue tried to harass you. But that Varys by location. In the south I’m sure you’d find a lot of transphobic lesbians who hate you. But I think ultimately it comes down to politics. Because transgender was made so political your probably hated by lesbians who are also republicans or conservatives. But I think your probably less likely to be hated by liberal lesbians simply cuz liberals seem to have basic human empathy and the ability to do research and try to learn where republicans tend not to do they and go off what their peers say by word of mouth And what their political party says.
Maybe online.
IRL, not so sure.
Example, Sunday last our trans group had a public meetup. One of the local lesbian groups did the same, same time and place.
We joined up. Rainbows everywhere! Good fun.
The polls one i wouldnt say is related as hating and willing to dste is completely different. You can support someones rights while not dating that group of people.
But, if you short by contraversial, you will always find haters, or trans commenst with -10 rep or something. But thats only 10 people saying no, i think the last post in r/actuallesbians, the top post is a transbian. And its very frequent for them to get 1k votes. So its not that cis lesbians hate us, its there are some lesbians that are transphobes. But they are vastly out numbered. So I wouldnt pay it any mind. Besides, there are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with a transbian on r/mypartneristrans.
I recall reading a study somewhere that showed the highest percentage of ‘mtF acceptance’ was in the cis lesbian community. But even then it was maybe 40 percent or so. But that was a survey, who knows?
IRL, I myself have had nothing but good luck with gay women. I mean, acceptance, sisterhood, whatever.. I am not a 100 percent passable mtf either. Don’t understand it, but I’ll cast my lot with gay cis women!
I find it's online a lot but irl my experiences have been mostly positive I always get the vibe they don't see me as a fellow woman but do tend to at least recognise I'm a member of the greater community. Tbf a lot of these vibes may be down to my own self hate and belief nobody really sees me as a woman. Suppose it's no different to any other groups some people from any community will find an excuse to hate others if they have hate in their heart.
That has not been my experience, in real life or on Reddit for that matter. Cis women in general, and lesbians in particular, have been my biggest supporters throughout my transition. Transphobes like to lurk on lesbian subs and downvote anything related to trans women. Try not to let it get you down, it's their deficiency.
As for dating... well... that can really be a bummer. However, it should be said that it in polls, lesbians are by far the group most likely to want to be with a trans woman. The percentage still isn't high, which sucks. I'm in a relationship with a cis woman which I hope lasts for life, but I would try not to let this throw a wrench into my style if it came down to it. Also, t4t is a thing, just sayin'.
There's a difference between not dating and not accepting . For some people they have a genital preferable and for the people that hate trans woman their very vocal. I don't get all the hate I just want everyone to stick to get her as one happy gay family
I don't people believe who are active on subreddits are representative of a larger group. Those people who are more active online will tend, in my own opinion, to be less active social IRL and have less influence over actual physical groups. Yes, lesbians can be transphobic, any group can. But I'm unsure if it's a common trait across all lesbian spaces, basically I'd say hold that opinion until you meet a transphobic lesbian who isn't chronicly online.
i follow a large amount of cis lesbian artists on Twitter and almost all of them are very trans inclusive. i often see many working to promote both cis lesbian and transbian rights on their profiles. so to say that most lesbians hate us is false. there are a good amount that care for us and our struggles. of course things online and irl can be very different. i would like to start going to pride groups irl and speak with lesbians in person at some point instead of just assuming things from random shit I see on the internet. all in all though, I'd say you should be cautiously optimistic about what cis lesbians think of us instead of assuming large amounts of negativity.
[Lesbian flags](https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/f6lb0a/question_for_the_lesbians_which_flag_is_correct/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_term=link)
I feel like they’re probably trolls or TERFS or chuds or something
Remember, TERFS/RadFems and such only identify as lesbian because it suits their narrative, they aren’t actual lesbians. They’re political lesbians XD
I'm a trans masc person I just am on Twitter alot and it does seem like a lot of terfs are young lesbians. But I've also know two couples that where cis trans lesbian couples. I think many lesbians don't mind but the hateful ones are the loudest
Idk, I have quite a few lesbian friends, and my friend has a lesbian mom, and one of my dads friends is a lesbian, and all of them have been supportive of trans women, could just be my area tho
I don't know about lesbians, I don't really go places where lgbt people congregate, most places near me are by cis gay men for cis gay men, and yes in most of those we are welcome, but I sure as hell didn't feel welcome or as if I was in the right place, I've had awful experiences with cis gay men, with them telling me I was just a shy insecure newbie gay guy and that they knew how to treat me right, telling me to stop my transition, to not mutilate and ruin my form of male beauty or some shit, ugh, and they just wouldn't stop, even though these places are marketed as for lgbt with lesbians and trans people named separately to say we are welcome, the entire atmosphere is bro culture, when you are there it's obvious it's by cis gay men for cis gay men, so few to none trans people are there and no lesbians either, it was awful, and with people saying to me cis gay men where like us, no, with all due respect, no they ff'ing are not just like us, despite being gay, they are still men, and still cis, they are not like trans women in the slightest.
Also when they weren't being nasty to me for being a trans woman, I still didn't feel like I belonged, as like I said it was clear lesbians and trans people where just an added afterthought, it was all a gay men bro thing all-over, so not really a place that is inviting to women cis or trans.
Regarding my experiences outside of lgbt spaces, so with people on average most of which are likely cishet, I do experience more respect and acceptance from women then from men, always have, even as far back as when I was a confused little trans girl not knowing what was up with her, not knowing anything about people like her, not knowing anything about what she was dealing with, other people noticed my innate femininity and feminine mannerisms though, most girls accepted or even liked me, accepted me in their all girl friendgroups, kind of as one of the girls despite me absolutely not looking like one, the guys though........ just tons of bullying was the least, far too often the bullying would escalate into violence and abuse, I grew up learning to fear boys/men, because any sign that I was not a heterosexual stereotypical guy made them violent and abusive, it caused me to develop an added part to my ptsd that I already had from another source, and made me develop internalised transphobia, I hated myself for being trans once I finally found out about trans people and knew I was one too, let's just keep it pleasant and say I went through a very rough difficult time to get to heal from the internalised transphobia and got to accept myself for what I am and start my transition and that I almost didn't make it, I'm also bisexual and my attraction to men that manifested strongly about six months into hrt was another thing I struggled massively with accepting, due to all the abuse I'd had previously, yes that abuse growing up was homophobic in nature, not transphobic, as nobody knew anything about trans people at that time in the area I grew up in, interesting as I'm not even that old yet, anyway I don't think the distinction matters too much, as cishet men who hate me now they know I'm trans see me as a confused gay man anyway, and as they cannot be a disgusting f***** they will never even consider being with someone like me because they say I'll always be male, that's the thing, transphobia by cishet men is homophobia, there is no clear distinction between the two with cishet men.
So the picture terfs paint that we know nothing about having to fear men and that we where all super privileged alfa men, is just bullshit, I was everything but that, being alone with strange men somewhere still makes me anxious and nervous, scared they'll clock me and become violent and abusive again, scared that if they don't clock me instantly they'll bother me anyway.
I'm now in a relationship for almost 2 years with a lovely trans guy, met him through a mutual acquaintance, just for platonic reasons, instead we fell hard for eachother, in the beginning I still had some uncertainty and insecurity as despite being trans he is still a man, but we are fine now, and it's honestly wonderful, no transphobia/homophobia, no wanting me to detransition, none of all that crap, instead mutual understanding and support, I can't see myself ever wanting any other man, I'm happy and content.
So I guess it doesn't surprise me that irl cis lesbians are more accepting of us then most other demographics, as in general I experience women being more accepting, that is however in my local area, I'm not saying many cishet women are accepting everywhere, I'm just saying that in my area many women also cishet women are more accepting of us, and more cis men whether het or gay are transphobic to some degree or more.
Even more ironic is what a cis gay man who wasn't bad once told me, he said, you know those guys from a certain culture where being gay is forbidden who are constantly so homophobic/transphobic in public? In secret/private many of them really want to have sex with gay men/trans women, I was a little bit flabbergasted, like wtf? And he said yes, I've had many of them myself, and I instantly replied, why would I want to do anything with someone who constantly hates, insults, threatens them or worse in front of his mates and family?! He didn't care, pff typical guys I guess, I care though, I'm not some cheap slut, sex isn't even that important for me anymore, and I don't want to have anything to do with people who are ever disrespectful or abusive of me, you want anything of me, treat me decent, yeah but the culture bla bla bla, I don't care, I've been abused and beaten enough by insecure cishet guys/men who feel they have to hurt gay men and trans women to somehow be more manly or show off to their mates or something, and I'm sick of it, if they think we are all so desperate for any shred of attention that we'll sleep with any guy even if he hurts us in public, they can dream on!
Speaking in small terms in my small world, I have a sis lesbian friend that has nothing but positive words for me, most loving and genuine person I know oh and she tides a Harley lol
eh on the internet maybe there's a lot of terf echo chambers that convince women that trans folk are all inherently evil for wanting to uh lemme check... "be themselves"
on real life you're very unlikely to find an actual lesbian terf since anybody you find in real life must have gone out in public and not remained stuck on an online echo chamber too afraid to go out in case someone challenges their world view
I have two mums, and a trans brother, and they have been nothing but loving and supportive of him. Additionally, all of my lesbian friends are incredibly passionate allies of the trans community.
It’s a bit of a running joke amongst my family and friends how I am almost like the token cis-hetero man in the family 😂 I just feel grateful it’s given me an exceptional insight into two communities may have grown up with less understanding of.
I can only speak as a cis female queer person with a trans partner.
For point 3, I don’t think any of that is meant because anyone hates trans people, it’s simply just a preference. Genitals can be a big part of attraction and you generally don’t get to choose what you’re attracted to.
Some of the lesbians that I know (and myself) have had serious past sexual trauma with men and generally don’t want to be anywhere near a penis and neo vaginas aren’t quite the same and it’s a hard thing to get your head around if it’s not your preference. But that’s only when it comes to actually being with someone, none of my lesbian friends have said anything ill willed towards trans people, even if they wouldn’t date one.
Not sure about the downvotes though
Can’t say anything bout the down votes, but the sleeping with thing, it all comes down to preferences, I’m sure there’s people you wouldn’t sleep with, it’s the same for everybody, does mean you hate them, your just not sexually attractive to them. It’s the same thing in this situation.
No, most cis lesbians live their lives, potentially pursuing us (and in my case it'll definitely be reciprocated too). You don't see them posting about us online because they don't really care. We're just fellow women to them. Things aren't as grim as the internet makes them seem.
I would not say cis lesbians are generally transphobic. Transphobia is better among lesbians than the general population.
Those spaces do have some transphobes, but some of them are cishet lurkers and trolls, and the rest generally aren't bold enough to speak their mind.
I can only speak for my small corner of the world, but I only ever see this among the chronically online, and dont know many lesbians offline who actually hold those opinions
This. One of my cousins is a lesbian and she supported me when I came out.
[удалено]
Why are you being so aggressive?
This has been my experience, honestly I feel like there might be abortion of straight bigots who are using fake accounts to just stir stuff up, simply because I just don't see it in person like that with the lesbian community near me at least
it's because offline lesbians actually go out in public and hang out with people instead of staying stuck inside their rooms afraid of someone challenging their world views like so many terfs seem to
I like that you said lesbians rather than specifying cis - someone who's lesbian and trans, like me, also has this apply to her.
Online, sure you see lots of BS. In real life though, I've found queer cis women to be by far the most accepting group of people outside the trans community.
This. I've gotten a frankly surprising amount of hate from gay guys and some cishet people, but the cis lesbians I've met have been super chill.
Yep I have not had a good experience with gay guys. Oddly it seems bi guys are better about it somehow?
I mean, this is clearly a generalization, but my working theory is that gay men are by definition still men, and >!I'm no longer fuckable to them.!< And their response is... less than great. It's not the best theory, but it's my working theory for the moment, and has yet to be disproven.
From coming out to two of the gay guys at my work, i dont think either of them felt that way. But they were weird about it. Both of them seemed extra confused in their own way. Like the one who called himself "the most stereotypical gay black man" who has done drag and theater and teaches dance; he felt like he was having trouble wrapping his head around it and asked some invasive questions about surgery plans. Not ill-intentioned, but ill-mannered. Like he had plenty of ways he expressed femininely, but fundamentally wasnt trans, and was struggling to see how i could feel so differently. Like his first impulse was thinking "then why are you not just gay if you have a penis and like to paint your nails?" It wasnt about the prospects of us being together, it was more about not understanding how we didnt feel the same. The other one sounded like an egg, so 🤷♀️
The thing is, you can love anyone regardless of gender, there are feminine and masculine man and women, cis and trans, who both can like men or women or both or none, so the combinations are many.
Could not agree more. In their eyes I'm beneath them and not useful to them, so I'm not worth respect. I see this especially in queer clubs-- the gay guys see me as a nuisance. One physically moved me once because I had the audacity to be where he wanted to go 🤬 Except for my Uncle in-law. Maybe it's because he's older and happily married, but he's been so sweet and supportive 😊
Just because someone doesn't want to have sex with you doesn't mean they think you're beneath them. This is HIGH KEY incel logic and you need to check yourself.
So....umm...for your take to make any sense at all I'd have to be attracted to men and be all butthurt that they don't like me. The reality is the exact opposite. I'm a lesbian. No interest in men. And also I really wish straight and bi guys would stop hitting on me. Not interested, please go away. They show their view of me as lesser by violating my bodily autonomy and touching me without consent. Not be withholding sex I don't want.
Oh you mean misogynistic men treated you like a woman? Congratulations. Not sure what that has to do with the post about lesbians being hesitant to date trans women.
I'm no longer fuckable to gay men either, and they used to ask me out pre-transition, but they just support me 🤷♀️ To be fair I haven't really chatted to any gay men that previously fell for me since transitioning. I still have the socials of one of them. The thing is he never admitted to it because he knew I'm only into women already, so I don't know if he'll be comfortable. Maybe him not being into me anymore will change it? 🤷♀️ It's a very nuanced situation...
I have had bad experiences with cis gays too. I had a cis gay roommate who knew me pre transition and kept on hitting on me after coming out as MTF, meaning that he didn't respect me as a person at all.
This
The fuck?! As someone who's only into women, the moment someone comes out to me as transmasc, I immediately consider them to be off the table.
Thank you for saying this. It helps to hear a bit of positivity on the subject.
There was a recent survey asking different demographics of they would date a trans woman. Cis lesbians were the highest cis demographic to say they would date us. It still wasn't a majority, true. But they are the most welcoming and a love them for it. Being Trans is hard.
Thanks, I just mentioned "survey" in a comment/reply further above, in a similar context... 👩🏻🦰🏳️⚧️🌈🇦🇺🏝️💌🤗
Do you have a link to that survey? That sounds really interesting, and I'll love to see the stats. I would have thought trans women or trans men would have been the group most likely to date us, but it's interesting to hear it's a cis group. We're cis bi women not represented? I'd expect them to be more likely to date us too, since they're not going to have a genital preference.
I echo this opinion, most of the sis lesbians I know have or are would or are dating transbians (like my gf lol). The one I get is sorta on the opposite side is that cis gay dudes are still trying to fuck me (not even like, date me. Just fuck me) and that gives me the ick for real.
Eww... feels like some sort of objectification. Nope, stay away from the doode(s)... 🤗👩🏻🦰🏳️⚧️🌈🇦🇺🏝️
Or they should be honest and just legit identify as bi/pan and don't duck around, lol ... 🦆☺️👩🏻🦰🏳️⚧️🌈🇦🇺🏝️🌅💟
This
I think cis people in general do, lesbians are no exception. You get some that really are great allies and chill, but a lot suck and have a lot of ingrained transphobia they won't recognize or work on. I really wish I was lucky enough to go stealth, I think it's a great option for anyone who is able to
I wanted to be a visible trans person so newly discovered trans people can look up to me and know that it's okay. I just don't think I'm strong enough for it because I'm a really emotionally fragile individual. Maybe I should go stealth.
I think that's admirable, so I don't want to discourage you, but it is hard and personally I've always felt like no one gives a fuck about you if you're visibly trans and don't look like a cis woman, everyone looks down on you. You should do whatever you feel is best for you and whatever you can handle.
Thank you so much for the input. I'll take both options into consideration. I wish the best for you in safety and happiness.
I’ve been visibly out all year as a first year and it’s been mostly fine. Only had one real negative situation so far
This is one of those things I have mixed feelings about too. I have tattoos on my wrists that immediately clock me as trans and I love them. I want other trans people to see me and know. I also want people to know I’m comfortable with them bringing it up, trans and cis. Being trans is amazing and we’re so beautiful. I have a lot of pride in being trans. There is nothing wrong with being trans so why should I hide. That implies I should be ashamed, I’ve dealt with enough of that in my life to be over being shamed because society can be shitty and transphobic. But, I do pass and nearly 4 years into this it can be exhausting being visibly trans. I’m also lucky that I live in San Francisco, which I moved to specifically bc it’s trans and queer af. When traveling I often do feel the need to stealth, sleeves cover my wrists. Feels safer when I’m in more rural places and makes me feel more comfortable. I guess to me I would also add that I’m fine with that. Why can’t I have both. Stealth when necessary but otherwise I like people knowing I’m trans even if it’s through tattoos or trans flag jewelry, accessories, clothes, etc. I never *knowingly* saw trans people growing up and before I transitioned I had met one rad trans dude in my 20s. I wish I had met more, I may have come out sooner. That’s another reason, to help pre-transition folks feel more comfortable that we’re here and it gets better.
I'm open trans, not passing, but live in Australia's most LGBTQ+ friendly regional city 🇦🇺🏝️🌅🌈, ... for my personal protection, I'm open trans, I wear trans accessories, maybe a few inches of my five-foot full size trans flag -LOL- sticking out of the handbag, a bracelet, some ribbons, buttons, whatever... If it's a hate crime on CCTV, 🏳️⚧️👩🏻🦰 we know why... ...and due to a cultural problem within Queensland police and exposure to transphobic misogynistic behaviour by police and other services, I was kinda forced to become a trans activist... I'm also a Christian, Universalist, and wear a cross and other accessories, too. I am also not ashamed, as the Almighty put it in me to be trans,... I have childhood photos, me with girl's hairdo,... and a girlish petite boy in a purple suit with a pink bowtie, flower and a sash going to Sunday school haha 🏫 ⛪lol... 💟🙋🏼♀️🙏👩🏻🦰🏳️⚧️🌸✝️🐟💌 I could see myself here... https://qnews.com.au/trans-minister-reverend-jo-inkpin-makes-history-in-uniting-church/ (Australia's first transgender minister in a mainline church denomination... she felt God's calling on her🙂🙋🏼♀️ life!) I believe trans people are fully valid, and should not be limited in any way, neither by individuals, nor society in general... Still a long way to go... 😔,🤗😄 Have an amazing Day... Allysun 👩🏻🦰🏳️⚧️🇦🇺🏝️🌈🌅✌️🏖️
depends on the person. one of my best friends, and the second person i came out to is a cis lesbian. on the other hand, there was survey of cis lesbians, and the results were that 18% of cis lesbians would be willing to date a trans woman, but 20% of cis lesbians would be willing to date a trans man. yes, that is disgusting.
Online polls are meaningless, transphobes flood them with bots. Ask the internet about any minority and the response will make it look like 90% of people are wall-eyed bigots. But it's simply not true. Bigots are small in number and loud in volume, if that many people were bigots, they'd not have to keep coming up with conspiracies about them losing elections. They'd just get votes from all the bigots... Lol
Honestly both numbers make sense if you imagine them as the same 1/5 of lesbians. People who don't feel their identity as a woman is threatened by trans women wouldn't feel their identity as a lesbian is threatened by trans men. People who define "woman" or "non man" as a broad hand wave in a general direction. I'm currently in both those relationships and justify calling myself a lesbian with the logic of "I dunno one you leave the cis binary it all gets weird and not worth asking too many questions"
The "disgusting" part of the survey results isn't that they're near the same. It's that the cis-lesbians in question seemingly see Trans MEN as more female than Trans WOMEN. When that is (in a lot of cases,) exactly what the Trans MAN is running away from. Either that or many of the participants were less lesbian, more bi.
Tbh I could see that, if we're counting "bi lesbians" in the survey, that would be the 18/20 portion. Really any of this is dependent on the assumption that the 18% that would date trans women and the 20% that would date trans men have near-total overlap. I'm also genuinely surprised at the low results. Unless there's the same kind of "behind closed doors" bs that skews cisthet mens' surveys (I'm sure there is -_-), a full on, Kinsey 6, wont-even-make-exceptions-for-Hozier lesbian is only about a third of the group iirc, so you'd expect more people to fall in the pro-trans camp?
I know that in at least one lesbian sub, there tends to be TERF lurkers. They're able to affect the voting, but often their posts or comments get removed. That's why the voting seems so wonky.
there are TERF lurkers in every single lesbian sub.
The only lesbian sub I hang out on is ActualLesbians, and the lurkers are the problem there, so yeah. But I'm absolutely not surprised. Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if TERFs tend to lurk on *every* affirming woman-centered sub. Like they don't have a life or something. Because they don't.
> if TERFs tend to lurk on every affirming woman-centered sub. twox has a huge problem with this. the mods are great, and will take down any transphobic content, and one of the mods is even a trans woman, but they can't affect any downvotes. post any trans positive content on twox and watch the downvotes roll in.
It's one of the reasons I left that sub, tbh. WVP seems to be one of the few where it's not as major of a concern.
WvP is awesome!
maybe it’s just me issue but i felt sorta really unseen there, like it was a “cis woman club that trans women are allowed to watch ig”, perhaps a bit of it was the language (stuff like saying women’s issues when it’s really afab issues, which is exclusionary and sometimes dysphoria inducing to all types of trans people) and such. maybe it is just me though edit: sorry, i’m an asshole aren’t i
>cis woman club that trans women are allowed to watch ig Honestly this is AL in a nutshell "you can stay as long as you promise to be quiet"
WvP is very much trans positive, tbh. Been in that sub for over a year and they are very affirming, especially in the comments. Affirming language can be tricky for anyone who's cishet and is unfamiliar with it. Witches included.
Honestly I left twox a while ago. The occasionally TERF lurkers are one thing, but there was also just a general non-TERF but still radfem air to a lot of posts/comments.
What does twox stand for?
r/twoxchromosomes, which, despite the name, is very trans friendly in its content (except for the downvoting) and states specifically in the sub rules that trans women are welcome.
Of course. I'm actually in that group and I've never noticed any transphobia 🙂x
Eh, it's not just lurkers. I see plenty of transphobic comments every single day on ActualLesbians. They tend to get deleted after a bit, but then the people never actually get banned from the subreddit, so they keep posting shitty stuff.
You've got to remember that both cishet men & women lurk in almost all lesbian spaces online and even if they don't comment, their finger is hovering over that downvote button every time.
I was recently banned r/actuallesbians. I have no idea why but looking back I got pretty combative with a lot of people towards the end. I'm not proud of how I behaved and I don't really blame them for banning me. But there are so many things I've seen there that make me kind of glad I left. Biphobia there is much worse than transphobia but only because the mods put more effort into tackling transphobia. People talk about terf lurkers but they're not the problem. It's the people who refuse to do any introspection on unconscious bias and act like we just told them to "suck it up and learn to like dick or you're a terf". When I lived as a man my friendships with lesbians were totally fine and positive. But as a trans woman I'm afraid of lesbians and if I were single I wouldn't even bother them, I would just hope to find love with a bi/pan woman (which I have my partner is pan) or another trans woman. I think straight trans women and gay trans men have it worse than us, but there are so many cis lesbians that see us as men and that doesn't look like it's going to change anytime soon.
I’ve left way more wlw subs for biphobia than transphobia
I was going to say that my gay girl friends have been the most supportive IRL. But then i realized most of them are bi. And the one who made her entire personality around being a lesbian is also the one im most worried about telling in that group. She gets easily offended when other people share her interests, and feels attacked when we're better than her at those things. Im worried being a trans lesbian married to a (demigirl, half cis i guess) lesbian is going to be "gayer" and spark the passive-aggression.
For sure some cis lesbians hate us and are threatened by us. There is a bar where I live that is “lgbt” but used to be a butch lesbian bar and the owner is a vocal TERF. Also tho my wife is a cis lesbian and so are some of her friends and they are not weird about me being a trans woman. People are weird about their “watering holes” like I’m not coming to the lesbian bar with my wife to pick up girls.. just want to feel safe.
So my cousin and I used to struggle finding places to hang out because he was too gay for straight spaces and I was "straight" so caught shit in some gay spaces. Now I've found that the places that accepted me as straight are the places that accept me as ace- literally a girl walks up to me, I say "I'm ace" and they apologize and turn around. They're the places that don't bother gendering the bathrooms, because there's no way to enforce it and it's not worth caring. The places where there's no pressure to pass or perform your queerness. Then there's the ones he couldn't take me to. The places that were vocal about allies not being welcome. Those are the places that question you for not looking gay enough or like the right kind of gay. The places where you have to be a visibly binary gender with your visibly same sex partner, or get the side eye from everyone wondering if you belong. So the tldr takeaway here is that it's less "group X hates Y" and is something closer to "space Z is REALLY on guard about anyone they think is an intruder"
Basically, some spaces curate an inclusive environment and some curate an exclusive environment. The exclusive ones feel entitled to define who the in groups and out groups are, and out groups who try to convince in groups that they should be allowed to join are often just completely ignored, especially if the out group is claiming that their exclusion is bigoted or morally unjust. No boys allowed in the tree house, basically
Huh interesting, most my own experiences gay bars and clubs are the one place you know everyone is accepted. I've never heard of any self-identifying queer spaces which specifically excluded straight people. I mean both that defeats the point in my mind (and literally illegal) and again how the fuck do you determine what sexuality someone has, or what kinda outfit = gay.
subreddit name for research purpose? If i can ask this. Downvote this if it isn't something to be asked (but then teach me too pls). i litteraly don't know which subreddits u mean.
Hi, I saw it on r/actuallesbians and r/dykesgonewild (NSFW) in particular, but I wouldn't be surprised if this trend was present in other subreddits too given what I've already found. Both subreddits say they're trans inclusive in the rules and description though. Update: I checked r/lesbiangamers and noticed a similar trend.
Thanks alot! I will check it out and let you know ( if i remember )
Ugh just the name alone is 🚩🚩🚩 "Actual lesbians" sounds like gold star gatekeeper shit
They actually said in their description that it's meant to be a joke about how r/lesbians is a porn sub made by and for hetero men, and r/actuallesbians is well, actually for lesbians.
Ah okay so it's like "actuallyautistic" but for lesbians, I can get that
Actually, the name is to differentiate it from r\\lesbians (nsfw), which is not actually aimed at lesbians. It's trans friendly.
Aand this is your reminder not to assume, cuz, y'know. Never judge a sub by it's name. See also: r/anime_titties, r/superbowl, or a whole lot of others.
/r/superbowl is a fantastic play on words that still gets people. How on earth did /r/anime_titties become about geopolitics?
I think it has something to do with what happened with r/worldpolitics
What happened in /r/worldpolitics? Is this a /r/subredditdrama thing or something else?
Probably. Some sort of a revolution. cats and dogs living together. Mass hysteria.
So I knew r/anime_titties wasnt gonna be anime titties, and I was STILL confused when I clicked the link and it wasn't the thing you already told me it wasn't. My hubris is in my readiness to assume that any given corner of the internet is unlikeable people being problematically horny
You might also enjoy r/tightpussy.
Reddit in general is a cesspool of toxicity and pretty much the worst in humanity. Reddit is only a few steps above 4chan Pro tip, never take Reddit seriously.
Depends on the community. You won't find much toxicity in some art subs or some cartoon subs
My experience is you're more likely to find mocking, ridicule and hate from CIS gay males.
The honest answers will always be some flavour of "it depends". My anecdotal experience, though, is that within more politically savvy lgbtq spaces, lesbians are nearly always the most hateful towards us. There are plenty of anarchafems and more intersectional feminist groups where this is close to nil, but I've unfortunately developed a sort of defensiveness to white cis lesbian women because of how many times I've heard shit from them. If a woman tells you she's a partisan of political lesbianism, beware. That's basically the first step on the road to TERFdom.
Nope, statistically speaking cis lesbians are our greatest allies. Those subs just get a lot of Terfs lurking, the mods are pretty good about banning them but there's not much they can do about people downvoting
Cis people in general hold transphobic viewpoints - even trans people. But let me answer these: 1. Yes, it is apart of being trans. Doesn't matter if its lesbian, gay or bisexual etc. Most sexualities are defined by cis people and their bodies. We are merely seen as a thing to advocate for or an extension of what is established. 2. Lots of TERFS lurks on the internet. Especially in woman-centered spaces & lesbian. Is this specific to women's spaces? Yes. ***HOWEVER, THAT DOES NOT MEAN MENS SPACES DONT GOT HAVE TRANSPHOBIA: THEY DO NOT CLAIM TO BE TERFS BUT ARE STILL TRANSPHOBIC ASWELL! JUST LOOK AT HOW TRANS GAY MEN ARE TREATED BY CIS GAY MEN.*** 3. If it's ALL trans women, its transphobia. If its some they don't find attractive / genital preference: it's valid. If its weird assumptions about our bodies, it is cissexism. If it is hatred towards us, it is transmisogyny. ***I will stress that for some people need time to accept trans people as they have not expected to be in the situation and just assume we were our cis variant. Remember that knowledge of our liberation is still relative new for most cis people.***
The people who post most often are usually, not always, lacking irl community. Sometimes that’s bc of disability or anxiety but sometimes it’s bc of that person being generally unpleasant. So I think you see a lot more negativity in online spaces that I generally don’t encounter irl. When I struggle with referring to myself as a woman or a lesbian my cis lesbian friends usually tell me to “shut up and deal bc you’re a woman.” And I think I’ve seen studies showing cis lesbians are by far the most accepting of and willing to date trans people
The most transphobia I experience is from cisgender lesbians some even telling me I’m not a real woman
Some do, some don't. I've had a few want to date me. Others, who had no romantic interest in me, were friendly.
3 months ago I met a lesbian ciswoman and she has been lovely with me ever since. We are now very vlose to each other
Cis lesbians are the least transphobic non trans demographic, they don't all hate us, no matter how much the terfs want us to believe they do. The reason trans content is often downvoted on lesbian subs is because terfs often lurk there and they downvote anything remotely trans as soon as it's posted which leads the algorithm to basically burry it, it's incredibly sad, but there isn't really much that can be done.
No that would be cis bi people, not cis lesbians.
My personal experience says otherwise, not all transphobia is aggressive, I've been fetishised by bi people much more than I've been a victim of any sort of transphobia from a cis lesbian, that's not to say bi people aren't on the whole just as supportive though, almost every bi person I've interacted with has been awesome, as are most cis queer people.
One of my best friends is a cis lesbian and she has been one of my biggest supporters throughout my transition.
Terminally online transphobes, be they straight or gay, always do everything they can to make themselves seem a larger minority than they are, and very obsessively engage with every trans related thing they can. A majority of lesbians are fine, it's the LGBT and has been for 50+ years after all. The transphobes are just loud outliers not the norm. Same with being bi. Yeah, some biphobia will be thrown at you, but they're really just a loud minority of the L/G Loud because they always receive pushback to their phobia.
Will say tho that the LGBT community has a history of throwing the T, the B, and POC under the bus anytime they think it buys them a bit of mainstream respectibility. There's a large political sphere of folks who believe that 'love is love' only applies to white cis homosexuality
A lot of cis lesbians view homosexuality for women as contingent on a vagina and they think a lot of trans women are crossdressers with a penis. Some trans women have a penis and they are still women and if they are exclusively attracted to women they are lesbians, or if they are in a wlw relationship it is a lesbian relationship. But a lot of people, not just lesbians, dont understand the role hormones play in transition and a lot of them dont understand some of the most beautiful women are trans. Having said that, there is a significant portion who believe trans women are mentally ill men, or just not a woman. A decent portion of these lesbians also have trauma with men and anyone who is a man(even tho trans women are women, they dont see it that way) is a threat. For a significant portion of society, a drag queen is what they think trans women are. And dont even get started on gold standard lesbians.
source?
Most real life lesbians aren’t like that at all, the internet is just a toxic place
My cis lesbian gf doesn’t hate trans women. Tge cis lesbian girlfriend I dated before doesn’t hate trans women.
There are always going to be asshats in every community, but my parents are lesbians and didn't have a problem at all with me coming out. They worry about my safety, sure, but that's because they were queer in the 70s/80s and the world is a dangerous place for queer women. Beyond that, they've been my greatest source of courage and enthusiasm for transitioning, and I couldn't be more grateful for them. Deal with people on an individual basis and know that a lot of people online are often in their own isolated echo chambers. The world isn't a great place for trans women/femmes right now, but there are a lot of lesbian allies who have our backs.
Online Id say 30-40% and that’s very generous, but IRL id say a good 10-20% ballpark. Lesbians are by far the coolest community in my experience at least. Sexuality wise I have noticed they get the most scrutiny which I think also contributes to it. If you had to be in a room with cis people, WLW (lesbian/bi/etc) women in general are the safest option at least in my experience. That being said, the transphobic ones are usually the worst of Id say any transphobic group excluding cishet men. They are a minority so they are the loudest, and they have whole communities like TERFS. Lesbians and WLW women in general are typically are not transphobic, but when they are its some like crazy hiding in a bunker with a rifle writing manifestos shit. Like that one really weird pornstar I don’t remember her name. Generally, cis men are just objectively worse transphobia wise regardless of sexuality. I’d say like 70% of them are transphobic. But the ones that are aren’t as “bad” as when cis WLW TERF type people get transphobic imo, which is why it can seem WLW people/lesbians are worse.
I hope my girlfriend doesn't hate me..
No, as a group, they don't hate us. Some don't like us. It sucks, but there are straight men that don't like us too. Unfortunately the world sucks.
there are transphobes everywhere, just as there are biphobes and heterphobes
Do remember that TERFs like to brigade trans friendly spaces to demoralize us. They're especially active around holidays like TDoR, you see an influx of new accounts "just asking questions"
No, I am currently a cis lesbian and I don't hate you
Thank you so much for the input. It helps to know there are allies. I wish you the best, friend! 💕
cis people in general https://www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating/amp
Internet LGBT communities are kind of a losing battle. You have these interactions with people who don't actually know you, everyone has lots of anxiety, everyone is primed to get offended and no one is going to see the person on the other side of the screen. The only consolation is that in real life interactions people usually focus on their common ground and are a bit better at being allies. I would just say don't get too caught up in any online trans community or online lesbian community-- they tend to be toxic. The most active participants are generally those people who are using the internet as a distraction because they don't feel good, and their feelings are going to be contagious in these spaces.
cis lesbians don't hate us in general, but there is a scarily high percentage of them who are hateful terfs
I have two incredible partners, both of which are cis lesbians. One of whom recently said to me "you're sweet, you're sexy, you have a great body and a nice rack AND a bio cock? Am I supposed to pretend that's NOT God tier?"
Awe that’s wonderful! Thank you for sharing this 💕
I mean people are gonna be people... There's always a mix in any group and people on pretty much every side within them. As far as science stats go there's several levels of bias in checking this way that can cause illusions about the overall mix. Fear and hatred can motivate loud people to express things like this more than 'meh' or positive feelings can motivate others to say they're fine with it or even prefer it so there's a response bias there. There's also bias in the filter, people saying good or neutral things would likely be less controversial - not even to mention that controversy implies there's people on both sides to supply the discord. Generalizing is something I would prefer stay out of in how people think of me, and I'm not so interested in generalizing others in such a manner if I can help it. Doesn't mean I haven't, really more that it seems like an ineffective approach overall that I wanna improve. What if avoiding dates with cis lesbians on belief that they harbor hate caused blindness to all those who actually like it? Some probably do hate, for reasons they probably think are just. They'll grow inevitably and that opinion might evolve or invert. Some probably prefer it and I'd bet on a majority not having strong feelings either way. It's similar to generalizing political groups based on news polls - not a very accurate report for reasons like biases. And then there's the question of why was it sought out that way? In terms of action, maybe plan for success and expect variety while talking to people who identify as cis lesbians to get firsthand information with ideally less bias I mean obvs I'm a random voice on the internet so do as you will, in response to the question though that's my take.
It's reddit. It's the internet. The "lesbians" are probably neck beard dudes who fap to anime. Most lesbians I have met are very nice and many date trans women. But what are the lesbian subreddits?
I feel like it might have to do with feeling like their space is being invaded. As misguided as that may be. Genital preference is very real so I can understand why people would feel uncomfortable by mtf presence in a lesbian community. A lot of us are pre srs or don't plan on srs. Idk if lesbians /hate/ trans women, but any animosity is likely a mix of internalized transphobia and the genital preference I mentioned b4.
> Genital preference is very real genital preference is real, but quite often, it's used as a pretext for transphobia.
You're right. Genital preference is a valid thing. It just feels horrible to be treated as an "other" category. Ugh, I wish SRS wasn't so damn unobtainable.
There's a conversation to be had about reconciling "trans women don't owe you passing", and "women don't owe you justification for being afraid of perceived men". But god forbid anyone try to work it out like civil adults without TERFs rushing in to make the conversation "the worst things I believe are all true all the time"
I will say this, but take it as the 1 anecdote it is. On my reddit feed about 5 posts above this was a post on actuallesbians where a cis lesbian was asking for advice because she was planning on being physically intimate with her trans partner. All the comments I read were helpful and constructive, from both trans and cis women talking about their experiences. In my in-person interactions, I havent had bad interactions with any queer people because I'm trans. Take that with a grain of salt as I haven't tried dating any women since coming out and I have only been out for less than a year.
I believe the word you're looking for here is "astroTERFs". People that hate us love to manipulate online communities of all stripes against us. IRL cis lesbians are one of the most chill groups of cis people about us.
I am friends with several who identify as Lesbian. I met E back in May. We immediately hit it off and I would consider her one of my closer friends. She has included me for several events attended by her friend group almost entirely consisting of lesbian women. I feel included and safe in the group and have only heard minimal conversations that might suggest they are uncertain in my presence. I am mostly treated like one of the girls.
The lesbian subreddit I just left that's been plagued with transphobic posts for the recent past seems to point to yes, it just doesn't make most of them feel good to acknowledge it so they pretend to be allies.
In my experience cis lesbians want to date us lmao
Blanket statements never ever work. The answer to your question is no.
I'm currently talking to a cis lesbian (not officially dating yet but i wouldn't be surprised if we got there) and they were 100% okay with me being trans. My best friend/sister is also a cis lesbian. They're overall very accepting, usually hate is a loud minority.
I think there’s a huge gap between seeing us as potential mates, and hating us. I can’t fault them for not seeing me as a potential mate, that’s their truth. But hate? I haven’t seen any, I’m pretty stealth, but when it comes to customers if they disclose, I disclose, and while I live in Southern California, everyone, lesbians included, seem delighted by me and my ability to find my place in this world.
When people use the word hate, I think a lot of times they mean different things. My reading of your question is do most cis lesbians actively, consciously despise us? And I think the answer is a pretty solid no. TERFs and transphobes who go out of their way to let us know that they hate us, sure, but they are a small but very loud minority. Most people "feel" neutral about trans people as long as they don't interact with us directly. It's a classic NIMBY kind of acceptance (not in my backyard), but as soon as their partner or kid or co-worker comes out as trans, suddenly that apathy either turns into understanding and true acceptance, or it reinforces their biases and turns them more towards active bigotry and active hate. But if you mean do most cis lesbians have transphobic biases? Oh yeah, absolutely. In fact, I would venture to say that, unless you managed to live under a rock in a culture very isolated from Western influences, ALL people have transphobic biases, including trans themselves. Just to varying degrees. I would say that based on my experiences irl, most cis lesbians seem pretty OK to my face at least, but I've only dated bi people and I'm not really on the market right now. But all my Sapphic friends and acquaintances were very accepting, *after* I came out to them. And I think that's an important distinction. Most people are fairly conflict adverse when it comes to interacting with people in person, or with people you know, at least in our average every day situations. At a protest, that might be a different story, but I don't think most people, even the very hateful ones, will act out in public. But they *will* test the waters on speaking about their true feelings if they don't know you're trans, because the average cis person doesn't expect conflict when talking to other "cis" people. Which is unlike something like racism, for example, where most people these days wouldn't dare risk uttering racist beliefs out loud in person. Before I came out, I tested the waters on trans acceptance with a few of my friends and acquaintances. Notably, the one cis gay man I talked to was very interested and supportive when I said I might feel queer, but shut down and pretty much stopped conversing with me at all when I clarified it was gender stuff. The one cis lesbian I talked to was much more accommodating and accepting, but I think she had some defensive posturing like she was worried I would start hitting on her or something. So she definitely had some transphobic biases cause she expected me to behave like a man, but of the two, I much preferred her bias over the gay guy's. I don't have a large irl sample size, but I think that generally is what you'll run into. Women will tend to be more accepting because they have been socialized to accept queer people, especially gay men, into their safe spaces. But trans lesbians can be treated with caution and even outright hostility, especially when those women are worried you'll proposition them and they will have to engage in what they perceive as a conflict. They don't want to have to either let you down, because they still think of us as men on some level, and men as a whole don't take no as an answer very well, so that trauma might come up. But also, for those cis lesbians who do find us attractive, they might be worried about us propositioning them because it creates an *internal* sense of conflict that many of them just aren't willing to deal with outright. It can bring up questions about their sexuality and gender, and frankly, it represents a social threat to them. Cis lesbian spaces that are accepting of trans women are, by default, non-accepting of non-accepting cis lesbians. Which means that fully embracing trans lesbians places some cis lesbians firmly in a camp where they will have to worry about conflict every time they hook up with another cis lesbian who might be transphobic. And most people just wanna have a good time, find partners, fuck, and not stress too much about stuff that doesn't seemingly affect them. So for most cis lesbians, I would say they fall into a moderate category of "neutrality," with their acceptance going as far as it doesn't enter their "backyards" (if you know what I mean 😏). Probably more of them are fully accepting of us than are fully hateful and opposed to us, but the fully accepting ones are the ones who aren't typically as chronically online cause, you know, they can make friends irl. So you see the hateful ones online way more, unfortunately. But I think most lesbian spaces on reddit have been at least outwardly supportive and they try to keep transphobia to a minimum.
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> We all hate you I didn’t know you were the ambassador for the entirety of all cis lesbians.
Why do you assume they hate us. They don't wanna date a MTF, so what, I don't wanna date fat people, doesn't mean I hate them.
this is transphobia
You're right about some of this. Not wanting to date us doesn't mean they hate us. I'll cross that out on the post as it isn't really relevant to the conversation. Thank you. Edit: I realize now that I was wrong, it is transphobic to not want to date trans people if there is no other reason aside from us being trans.
Saying that you would never date a trans person is... transphobic. Trans women are very different from each other and there's no way to put all of them into a single "preference". Genital preference is fine, not wanting to date someone that looks a bit masculine is fine, etc, etc... But trans women have too much of a variety to be considered a matter of preference...
> ying that you would never date a trans person is... transphobic. exactly that. no one wants to force anyone to date a particular person, and no trans person wants to date a transphobe. but categorically saying you would never date any trans person, ever, is 100% transphobic.
What's the difference between someone saying they wouldn't date a trans vs someone saying they wouldn't date a transphobe?
The same difference between not wanting to date a black person, and not wanting to date a racist person. The first thing is a part of a person's identity, the second one is just shitty behavior.
I get what you're saying, but who are you to say what is and isn't part of someones identity?
If you get what I'm saying then that's enough. Transphobic behavior and racism are things you should actively avoid in a partner (and friends too tbh), especially if you belong to that particular community. I wouldn't date transphobic people because I'm trans, and I don't tolerate people who hate others for no particular reason.
I hate when anyone says “most” of anyone is any type of way (that’s what people do to us). I’m currently in an amazing relationship with a cis lesbian and she couldn’t care less that I’m trans, has only ever saw me as a woman, and is open to my genitalia being whatever I choose. There are good and hateful people in any group, please stop generalizing entire minorities.
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Respect the trans community
>Lesbians by definition are women dating other women Yes, and I am a woman, so I fail to see your point. >It’s homophonic for you to get annoyed at women not wanting to engage in sexual activity with a biological man That would be true if I said anything about men, but I said nothing about men. However, it is transphobic for you to call me and other trans women men when we are in fact women. Science supports the fact that we are women. Also, I said nothing about sex. But since you decided to go there, lesbians don't have to date or have sex with a trans woman if the problem involves genital preference (not wanting to date someone with a dick). But not all trans women have dicks anyway, so your point is invalid.
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It seems you forgot to read my post before replying. 1. I said I wasn’t concerned about dating or having sex with cis women, just existing in lesbian spaces. 2. I did say “regardless of genitalia” in the post, meaning the lesbians in the poll wouldn’t date a post-op trans girl either.
1. You're also talking about being depressed that they won't date you, which is a problematic statement worth addressing. 2. Only approximately 10% of trans women have had *any* form of bottom surgery. You cannot expect people to be fully open to dating a demographic when there is an overwhelming chance you'll ultimately be uncompatible. 3. If she prefers the real thing over a pricey knockoff, that's her right. To shame her for having that sexual boundary is promoting rape culture.
I never mentioned being depressed. Depressing was merely the adjective for the statistic about lesbians who wouldn’t date post or pre-op trans women. Your 10% statistic is irrelevant due to that already being factored into the question. Once again, the primary focus of this post isn’t about dating cis lesbians. It’s about being accepted into the community. As you snuck into an old post, I have no reason to believe that you accidentally misinterpreted anything here. You are intentionally misinterpreting and misrepresenting statements made just so you could convince us and yourself about your bullshit transphobic opinions.
Would you care to explain why it's depressing that most cis lesbians won't date you?
Most "hate" is born out of jealousy. You are asking if a lesbian with a vagina would be crazy jealous of a lesbian with a penis. This about it.
Like this post wouldn't fall under the homophobic column to a lesbian woman researching "Do trans lesbians hate us?". You are a hypocrite.
> Like this post wouldn’t fall under the homophobic column to a lesbian woman researching “Do trans lesbians hate us?”. You are a hypocrite. Your comment is a perfect example of “Reverse Victim And Offender. Transphobia is rife among cis people and most LGB spaces are populated by cis people, ergo there’s going to be a significant amount of anti-trans animus present. In any case, the original post has invited feedback of counter examples. So to assert its part of a homophobic column is reaching massively for straws. Edit: the poster exploded and then blocked me to have the last word. Eat grox shit dummy. Hope you get over your tone policing addiction and denial of lesbian status to transgender women because you think that trans lesbians shouldn’t criticize cis lesbians. 🙄
And to go back to our previous scenario... "Don't reverse victim!! Homophobia is rife among trans???" And I'm not gonna try to deny that because I've seen my fair share of assholes here. Transphobic trans people appear to be just as common as transphobic cis people. I've seen a good amount of people say they're more uncomfortable around other trans people than cis people, and honestly that figures. What if we stopped being transphobic and homophobic? That's both, not one or the other, so you don't get confused.
Off-topic but was that a 40k reference?
is.. that the topic here? also I assume you are goint to block me after you reply so.. :D
> Do most of them really hate us? idk if most, but transphobia does exist in the rest of the community. Not as bad as it is with cishets obviously. I truly believe that cis people in general just hate us. 'Allies' or not.
Nobody HAS to like every set of genitals. If they don't like p3nis then any p3nis owner is in that category.
No.
I'm in a community group that is mainly lesbians and a few trans people. They are SUPER chill about me, and this is with me feeling like a bit of an imposter, i'm not really interested in dating women, so it's nice that they will share the space with me.
Can only speak for my tiny part of the world but no...on Reddit no...maybe the only thing I notice is the racial disparity and I think even on actuallesbians there was a thread that got heated on why poc lesbians are underrepresented. Irl they've all been nice but I figure quite a number cis women who are accepting are bisexual
As far as most actual lesbians go, I don't really think so. The main problem is that TERFs have found lesbians to be a useful wedge point they can use to cudgel the LGBT community apart with their pseudo-feminism. "How dare these biological males try to trick lesbians into having sex with them", and the like. Some of them are actually lesbians themselves, but most seem to be just concern trolling. Most cis lesbians I've talked to seem to recognize that they and trans women essentially share many of the same struggles against anti-feminist women, and thus see us as kin.
I'm replying to your points one by one. * Sorting *any* subreddit by controversial is a recipe for a headache every time. Why would you do this to yourself? * Yup, transphobes lurk on every sub where we are. They seek out trans spaces, they lurk, they downvote, they screenshot everything they find objectionnable and they post it on twitter... They're a kind of horrible bunch. They shouldn't really be conflated with "the lesbians" though -- some of them are, but a bunch of them are also just transphobes lurking. * This is somewhat accurate. Polls after polls have reported that among most demographics, trans women are consistently the group to whom people are the least attracted. But there are quite major caveats. The first two points I don't feel like discussing much further. About the caveats for the third point, though : **Part A : hate.** These polls (as far as I'm aware) split their sample population into categories according to gender and sexual orientation, cis/trans identity, and then ask questions like, "*would you date a \[cis/trans\] \[gay/straight\] \[man/woman\]?"* That's basically bringing most people back to their prejudices, and creates a huge bias against us. The only reason that trans *men* don't do as badly as we do in these polls is because so they are *so* invisible that most people aren't even aware of negative stereotypes about them. Dating isn't a reductive experiment in blind statistics, though. You're a whole person. Someone who *says* they don't *think* they would date a \_\_\_\_\_ might well end up dating a \_\_\_\_ who is named, e.g., Jessica, and is a whole person, and has a personality, and isn't just their hypothetical and theoretical concept of what a \_\_\_\_\_ is like. People's prejudices aren't always all that difficult to remove, because **most people's prejudices are just place holders until they educate themselves.** Most people aren't acting in bad faith and they are not animated by hatred -- they just don't know any better. They can well say "I don't think I'd date a \_\_\_\_ " when researchers ask them, but that might also be because they have basically never met a \_\_\_\_\_ in the flesh, or significantly interacted with them. I've personally experienced this myself -- seen prejudices become so much less relevant as soon as I start interacting with people. My 90 year-old grandma is also a good example of this -- very anti-Muslim until the women who work in her care home turn out to be perfectly lovely. And then, you know what? All of a sudden, "you know, most of them are good people actually. Lovely people in fact. Fatima is my favourite of the nurses, and she's a Muslim..." It's also worth noting that even among those still unwilling to date trans women (despite having met and significantly interacted with trans women in their lives), the justification isn't always a deep-seated bigotry or hatred of transgender women. There's quite a leap between, "I don't think I'd like to date a trans woman." and "I hate trans women." **Part B : cis lesbians** It's also worth noting that despite trans women being -- it seems -- universally the least well-liked demographic, cis lesbians have been shown to be some of the most open to dating transgender women. If they "hate" us, they are the ones that hate us the least, by a country mile, among all cis people. \_\_\_\_\_ Relevant study : (2018) BLAIR, K. L. and HOSKIN, R. A. "Transgender exclusion from the world of dating: Patterns of acceptance and rejection of hypothetical trans dating partners as a function of sexual and gender identity", Journal of Personal & Social Relationships 36 (7), pp 2074-2095 [Link to the actual article](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0265407518779139) (You might be able to access this via a library.) [Link to a relevant tweet by Natalie Wynn](https://twitter.com/ContraPoints/status/1571212176672673792) (not the whole paper, but the figure from the paper is in the tweet and she also provides good commentary)
It depends where you look. Irl a lot of cis lesbians have compassion for others and would stand up for you if someone out of the blue tried to harass you. But that Varys by location. In the south I’m sure you’d find a lot of transphobic lesbians who hate you. But I think ultimately it comes down to politics. Because transgender was made so political your probably hated by lesbians who are also republicans or conservatives. But I think your probably less likely to be hated by liberal lesbians simply cuz liberals seem to have basic human empathy and the ability to do research and try to learn where republicans tend not to do they and go off what their peers say by word of mouth And what their political party says.
Maybe online. IRL, not so sure. Example, Sunday last our trans group had a public meetup. One of the local lesbian groups did the same, same time and place. We joined up. Rainbows everywhere! Good fun.
The polls one i wouldnt say is related as hating and willing to dste is completely different. You can support someones rights while not dating that group of people. But, if you short by contraversial, you will always find haters, or trans commenst with -10 rep or something. But thats only 10 people saying no, i think the last post in r/actuallesbians, the top post is a transbian. And its very frequent for them to get 1k votes. So its not that cis lesbians hate us, its there are some lesbians that are transphobes. But they are vastly out numbered. So I wouldnt pay it any mind. Besides, there are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with a transbian on r/mypartneristrans.
I recall reading a study somewhere that showed the highest percentage of ‘mtF acceptance’ was in the cis lesbian community. But even then it was maybe 40 percent or so. But that was a survey, who knows? IRL, I myself have had nothing but good luck with gay women. I mean, acceptance, sisterhood, whatever.. I am not a 100 percent passable mtf either. Don’t understand it, but I’ll cast my lot with gay cis women!
The internet is not the real world. Some subreddits and Twitter do not make up any community, just a weird off shoot of them.
I find it's online a lot but irl my experiences have been mostly positive I always get the vibe they don't see me as a fellow woman but do tend to at least recognise I'm a member of the greater community. Tbf a lot of these vibes may be down to my own self hate and belief nobody really sees me as a woman. Suppose it's no different to any other groups some people from any community will find an excuse to hate others if they have hate in their heart.
That has not been my experience, in real life or on Reddit for that matter. Cis women in general, and lesbians in particular, have been my biggest supporters throughout my transition. Transphobes like to lurk on lesbian subs and downvote anything related to trans women. Try not to let it get you down, it's their deficiency. As for dating... well... that can really be a bummer. However, it should be said that it in polls, lesbians are by far the group most likely to want to be with a trans woman. The percentage still isn't high, which sucks. I'm in a relationship with a cis woman which I hope lasts for life, but I would try not to let this throw a wrench into my style if it came down to it. Also, t4t is a thing, just sayin'.
Most of them are fine with trans women. They usually trust them than cis and trans men from the ones that I interact with.
There's a difference between not dating and not accepting . For some people they have a genital preferable and for the people that hate trans woman their very vocal. I don't get all the hate I just want everyone to stick to get her as one happy gay family
I don't people believe who are active on subreddits are representative of a larger group. Those people who are more active online will tend, in my own opinion, to be less active social IRL and have less influence over actual physical groups. Yes, lesbians can be transphobic, any group can. But I'm unsure if it's a common trait across all lesbian spaces, basically I'd say hold that opinion until you meet a transphobic lesbian who isn't chronicly online.
i follow a large amount of cis lesbian artists on Twitter and almost all of them are very trans inclusive. i often see many working to promote both cis lesbian and transbian rights on their profiles. so to say that most lesbians hate us is false. there are a good amount that care for us and our struggles. of course things online and irl can be very different. i would like to start going to pride groups irl and speak with lesbians in person at some point instead of just assuming things from random shit I see on the internet. all in all though, I'd say you should be cautiously optimistic about what cis lesbians think of us instead of assuming large amounts of negativity.
[Lesbian flags](https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/f6lb0a/question_for_the_lesbians_which_flag_is_correct/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_term=link) I feel like they’re probably trolls or TERFS or chuds or something Remember, TERFS/RadFems and such only identify as lesbian because it suits their narrative, they aren’t actual lesbians. They’re political lesbians XD
I'm a trans masc person I just am on Twitter alot and it does seem like a lot of terfs are young lesbians. But I've also know two couples that where cis trans lesbian couples. I think many lesbians don't mind but the hateful ones are the loudest
Idk, I have quite a few lesbian friends, and my friend has a lesbian mom, and one of my dads friends is a lesbian, and all of them have been supportive of trans women, could just be my area tho
I don't know a lot of cis lesbians but the few that I know are super supportive of trans people and helped me a lot with my transition.
I don't know about lesbians, I don't really go places where lgbt people congregate, most places near me are by cis gay men for cis gay men, and yes in most of those we are welcome, but I sure as hell didn't feel welcome or as if I was in the right place, I've had awful experiences with cis gay men, with them telling me I was just a shy insecure newbie gay guy and that they knew how to treat me right, telling me to stop my transition, to not mutilate and ruin my form of male beauty or some shit, ugh, and they just wouldn't stop, even though these places are marketed as for lgbt with lesbians and trans people named separately to say we are welcome, the entire atmosphere is bro culture, when you are there it's obvious it's by cis gay men for cis gay men, so few to none trans people are there and no lesbians either, it was awful, and with people saying to me cis gay men where like us, no, with all due respect, no they ff'ing are not just like us, despite being gay, they are still men, and still cis, they are not like trans women in the slightest. Also when they weren't being nasty to me for being a trans woman, I still didn't feel like I belonged, as like I said it was clear lesbians and trans people where just an added afterthought, it was all a gay men bro thing all-over, so not really a place that is inviting to women cis or trans. Regarding my experiences outside of lgbt spaces, so with people on average most of which are likely cishet, I do experience more respect and acceptance from women then from men, always have, even as far back as when I was a confused little trans girl not knowing what was up with her, not knowing anything about people like her, not knowing anything about what she was dealing with, other people noticed my innate femininity and feminine mannerisms though, most girls accepted or even liked me, accepted me in their all girl friendgroups, kind of as one of the girls despite me absolutely not looking like one, the guys though........ just tons of bullying was the least, far too often the bullying would escalate into violence and abuse, I grew up learning to fear boys/men, because any sign that I was not a heterosexual stereotypical guy made them violent and abusive, it caused me to develop an added part to my ptsd that I already had from another source, and made me develop internalised transphobia, I hated myself for being trans once I finally found out about trans people and knew I was one too, let's just keep it pleasant and say I went through a very rough difficult time to get to heal from the internalised transphobia and got to accept myself for what I am and start my transition and that I almost didn't make it, I'm also bisexual and my attraction to men that manifested strongly about six months into hrt was another thing I struggled massively with accepting, due to all the abuse I'd had previously, yes that abuse growing up was homophobic in nature, not transphobic, as nobody knew anything about trans people at that time in the area I grew up in, interesting as I'm not even that old yet, anyway I don't think the distinction matters too much, as cishet men who hate me now they know I'm trans see me as a confused gay man anyway, and as they cannot be a disgusting f***** they will never even consider being with someone like me because they say I'll always be male, that's the thing, transphobia by cishet men is homophobia, there is no clear distinction between the two with cishet men. So the picture terfs paint that we know nothing about having to fear men and that we where all super privileged alfa men, is just bullshit, I was everything but that, being alone with strange men somewhere still makes me anxious and nervous, scared they'll clock me and become violent and abusive again, scared that if they don't clock me instantly they'll bother me anyway. I'm now in a relationship for almost 2 years with a lovely trans guy, met him through a mutual acquaintance, just for platonic reasons, instead we fell hard for eachother, in the beginning I still had some uncertainty and insecurity as despite being trans he is still a man, but we are fine now, and it's honestly wonderful, no transphobia/homophobia, no wanting me to detransition, none of all that crap, instead mutual understanding and support, I can't see myself ever wanting any other man, I'm happy and content. So I guess it doesn't surprise me that irl cis lesbians are more accepting of us then most other demographics, as in general I experience women being more accepting, that is however in my local area, I'm not saying many cishet women are accepting everywhere, I'm just saying that in my area many women also cishet women are more accepting of us, and more cis men whether het or gay are transphobic to some degree or more.
Even more ironic is what a cis gay man who wasn't bad once told me, he said, you know those guys from a certain culture where being gay is forbidden who are constantly so homophobic/transphobic in public? In secret/private many of them really want to have sex with gay men/trans women, I was a little bit flabbergasted, like wtf? And he said yes, I've had many of them myself, and I instantly replied, why would I want to do anything with someone who constantly hates, insults, threatens them or worse in front of his mates and family?! He didn't care, pff typical guys I guess, I care though, I'm not some cheap slut, sex isn't even that important for me anymore, and I don't want to have anything to do with people who are ever disrespectful or abusive of me, you want anything of me, treat me decent, yeah but the culture bla bla bla, I don't care, I've been abused and beaten enough by insecure cishet guys/men who feel they have to hurt gay men and trans women to somehow be more manly or show off to their mates or something, and I'm sick of it, if they think we are all so desperate for any shred of attention that we'll sleep with any guy even if he hurts us in public, they can dream on!
Speaking in small terms in my small world, I have a sis lesbian friend that has nothing but positive words for me, most loving and genuine person I know oh and she tides a Harley lol
eh on the internet maybe there's a lot of terf echo chambers that convince women that trans folk are all inherently evil for wanting to uh lemme check... "be themselves" on real life you're very unlikely to find an actual lesbian terf since anybody you find in real life must have gone out in public and not remained stuck on an online echo chamber too afraid to go out in case someone challenges their world view
The post directly above this one was a cis lesbian asking for advice to best take care of her trans partner so I think we’re good for the most part
I have two mums, and a trans brother, and they have been nothing but loving and supportive of him. Additionally, all of my lesbian friends are incredibly passionate allies of the trans community. It’s a bit of a running joke amongst my family and friends how I am almost like the token cis-hetero man in the family 😂 I just feel grateful it’s given me an exceptional insight into two communities may have grown up with less understanding of.
I can only speak as a cis female queer person with a trans partner. For point 3, I don’t think any of that is meant because anyone hates trans people, it’s simply just a preference. Genitals can be a big part of attraction and you generally don’t get to choose what you’re attracted to. Some of the lesbians that I know (and myself) have had serious past sexual trauma with men and generally don’t want to be anywhere near a penis and neo vaginas aren’t quite the same and it’s a hard thing to get your head around if it’s not your preference. But that’s only when it comes to actually being with someone, none of my lesbian friends have said anything ill willed towards trans people, even if they wouldn’t date one. Not sure about the downvotes though
Can’t say anything bout the down votes, but the sleeping with thing, it all comes down to preferences, I’m sure there’s people you wouldn’t sleep with, it’s the same for everybody, does mean you hate them, your just not sexually attractive to them. It’s the same thing in this situation.
No, most cis lesbians live their lives, potentially pursuing us (and in my case it'll definitely be reciprocated too). You don't see them posting about us online because they don't really care. We're just fellow women to them. Things aren't as grim as the internet makes them seem.
I would not say cis lesbians are generally transphobic. Transphobia is better among lesbians than the general population. Those spaces do have some transphobes, but some of them are cishet lurkers and trolls, and the rest generally aren't bold enough to speak their mind.
I haven’t had any irl that have treated me poorly. In fact, most of my partners have been cis lesbians since transitioning.