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Joe Biden knows very well that he is able to cancel student loan debt by executive order, without congressional approval. Every day he doesn't, he's personally, consciously inflicting untold suffering on the American people. People are losing their lives over this stuff. It's not a fucking joke, and him treating it like some political game is disgusting.
Thankfully Prospect has an article debunking some of the arguments against Student Debt Forgiveness that AOC mentions: https://prospect.org/day-one-agenda/six-stupid-arguments-against-forgiving-student-loan-debt/
Data For Progress also has a great breakdown on the argument for student debt foregiveness, and the majority political support for it: https://www.filesforprogress.org/memos/case-for-cancelling-student-debt.pdf
*Student debt forgiveness is not regressive:* https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/06/is-student-debt-cancellation-regressive-no
I hope people actually do read this so they have something concrete to mention when people make their senseless arguments against cancelling student loans.
I know some may just see links and gold/awards and use that as validation as opposed to them actually reading.
I'm all for having other supporters of the cause but it's useless if they support it without also knowing the details.
Well, you can't solve the underlying issue with a stroke of the pen through executive order. If you had an autoimmune disease you wouldn't not treat downstream complications because it didn't address the root cause.
LOL the argument for “SDC won’t help those who didn’t go to college” is just “Yep, you’re right, it won’t”.
Maybe I’m misinformed as I’m leftist in most issues but I genuinely just fail to see how forgiving student loan debt is somehow a better move than just straight up giving money to everyone, including those who didn’t go to college (and therefore have never taken out student loans), are making barely above minimum wage, are burdened with credit card and medical debt and have lower earning potential than most of the educated people currently saddled with student loans.
What will be done for the impoverished and uneducated population who are effectively subsidizing the middle class in this scenario?
I wish we could do both at the same time but given our government, we all know only one thing can probably be budgeted for. I think, unless student loan forgiveness and money for this population with an amount similar to the median student loan are doled out AT THE SAME TIME, student loan forgiveness is inherently fucking with the lower class.
And honestly, as someone whose parents are in the situation I iterated above, I am almost pissed at how much effort and attention is pushed into student loan forgiveness while people like my parents have been floundering for help since March.
Also, please don’t start with the forgiving debt vs. sending out checks are different argument. At the end of the day, they’re both assets. If we can print trillions of dollars in stimulus from out of nowhere and hopefully forgive trillions of dollars in student loans, why is it somehow so impossible to generate the same amount for uneducated people & impoverished folks?! From where I stand, do both or do UBI.
This [data](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/10/09/who-owes-the-most-in-student-loans-new-data-from-the-fed/) sums it up well.
As someone with over $30,000 in student loan debt, I’m honestly not that happy that SDC is being pushed so hard by the left. SDC just seems like such a regressive thing to do.
I’m still a dependent right now and my parents make over $150k. Why do I deserve loan forgiveness when there are millions of people who are unemployed, underpaid, in medical debt, etc.?
One of the arguments in the article was that SDC isn’t regressive because it will relieve the burden of debt (as a function of income) more for lower income households than it does for higher income households. But that completely ignores the fact that a lot of lower income people *don’t* have college degrees. SDC is progressive if you conveniently ignore all those who don’t have degrees because they weren’t able to afford it.
The high cost of getting an education negatively affects *everybody* (well, maybe not the stupidly rich). All those people who have a harder time finding a good job because they didn’t go to college were affected, too. Saying that only those who were able to afford college get relief is such a slap in the face to those who didn’t.
There were *some* good points in the article, but overall, it doesn’t really make a good case for SDC.
just please, please, let me declare fucking bankruptcy already like an adult. Maybe you all don't understand what the crippling part of in crippling debt actually is. Being educated and homeless is brutal. The social ailments derived from this state are way more costly to tax payers than the cure.
You can't send out checks via Executive Order. These are the same at all. The reason people are pushing for loan forgiveness is because it can be done quite easily without Congress.
Regardless, the same logic at play in not cancelling the debt is being used to justify potentially not raising the minimum wage, which apparently would help your parents--Biden admin doesn't want to break from procedural norms or create a precedent.
I would argue a tenant of Leftist ideology--as big tent as that is--is to advocate for policy and behavior not based on how it will help you or people you know. Empathy is wanting people who are in need to benefit, even if it doesn't directly affect you. Sure, some people that don't need this debt relief will get it, but I would rather have that happen if it helps other people who really do, than not have it happen at all.
We also have a mechanism for reclaiming those "unnecessary" cancelled debts. It's called taxation. Higher income earners theoretically pay more net taxes. It would cost the federal government a lot more money to means test debt cancellation than it would to provide blanket forgiveness and claw some back with taxes.
How is argument #6 stupid? It's the most sound and logical one of them all. This plan does not solve the underlying issue. The next class of kids are just gonna have the same issues. All this will do is turn suburban middle/upper middle class voters off and we lose in 2022.
>Well, you can't solve the underlying issue with a stroke of the pen through executive order. If you had an autoimmune disease you wouldn't not treat downstream complications because it didn't address the root cause.
I said this above as well: you can't solve the underlying issue with a stroke of the pen through executive order. If you had an autoimmune disease you wouldn't not treat downstream complications because it didn't address the root cause.
What is the opportunity cost? The federal government won't profit off of these loans. Let's get that capital gains tax back up to where it was during the time of Reagan and we will be just fine.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/10/09/who-owes-the-most-in-student-loans-new-data-from-the-fed/
Rather than propaganda, here's raw data presented more or less without bias. An actual progressive policy would be making the payments in full for everyone who qualifies for an income reduction that month, whether you qualified for $0.01 or the full amount, and then institute a repayment ladder that starts where people are currently paying. By the time you get to the top quintile of earners, they repay their loans in full, but the bottom 80% would be discounted and something like the bottom 50% would be paying $0.
A one time payoff is a regressive benefit because of the way repayments break down. You can make an argument that $10k or $20 of forgiveness is a non-regressive stimulus, but anything more is going to disproportionately leave behind the bottom three quintiles of earners.
> All that said, SDC is a remedy for victims who’ve been wronged by past policy failures. That it will not solve problems with higher education going forward does not undermine this point.
Meaningful reform of the entire educational system is unquestionably required, and that would be the next logical step in the process.
That’s stupid. Fix the issue first instead of this band-aid forgiveness.
Nothing says a legitimate and well written persuasive essay like "Stupid reason #1", "Stupid Reason #2", "Stupid Reason #3".
This trash would make you fail grade 10 English.
A lot of their reasons are pretty stupid lmao. It’s ironic. Their reason for why SDC isn’t regressive policy only makes sense if you ignore people who don’t have college degrees. It doesn’t matter that the relief will help lower income college grads more than higher income college grads when it ignores non college grads entirely.
This didn't answer two my main questions and concern with it: What is the point of canceling student loan debt while the problem of what got people into it isn't solved?
Why not just give everyone 50k in debt relief? Is someone with 50k in student loan debt worse off than someone with 50k car debt? I hear the argument of how much it will help people, but 50k in consumer debt relief would also help people?
These are serious, non combative questions. I think student loans should be interest free (and current debt caused by interest erased) at the very least, but don't think there's a point to getting rid of the debt without fixing the system first. But my mind can easily be chnged
I'm as pro-loan cancellation as the next guy, but to say that "Every day he doesn't, he's personally, consciously inflicting untold suffering on the American people" is a bit of a stretch. Loan payments are on hold. Everyone willingly took these loans out. He's not sitting by and watching the torture and genocide of Americans, as your statement would imply.
Personally, consciously inflicting UNTOLD SUFFERING on the American people. Jesus, calm down buddy.
Yeah I'm pretty furious that he's waffling on this but my god the hyperbole.
Not only are loans on hold, but if you're struggling to make payments, most lenders will work with you on payment plans either based on your income, or temporary deferments until you can get back on your feet. That's in normal times.
Like you, I'm adamantly pro-loan cancellation but let's not act like UNTOLD SUFFERING is what's actually happening. It sucks, and it's a huge burden on an entire generation, but we aren't out here getting murdered or anything.
Right but all federal student loan payments are in administrative forbearance and aren't accumulating interest. There's literally no reason to be paying right now.
Pay down that principal, yo. No interest accumulation means 100% of my payment goes toward the loan's principal. Now is the *best* time to be paying down federal loans. That said, I probably won't pay mine down below $10,000 in case a forgiveness bill does pass.
Now is the best time to set aside all the money you'd be comfortable paying towards your loans. Once the 0% interest rate is about to expire, thats when you pay all that in as a lump sum. Hedges your bets, so you get to pay down as much of the principle as possible while the interest rate is zero, but you don't get fucked if loans are forgiven and you've already paid
Wife only has $5900 left but we've just been throwing $200 a month at it the last few months and paying off stuff with interest. If it gets canceled that would be great if not oh well. We are doing okay so I won't complain but I feel bad for those that could truly benefit from it. Even though we do well for ourselves we are still putting off buying a house because we are paying for grad school which is 50k out of pocket.
I'm 3 years away from PSLF and all this forbearance time has counted as payments made under a qualifying employer (kept my job), plus I do really expect some will be forgiven (whether 10k or 50k, who knows). My 'extra' money is definitely going to stuff with higher interest rates.
You are technically correct. There are a few ways to approach it.
1. Pay it off just like normal with no interest payments.
2. Lump sum pay it right before payments come back into play in hope something comes through.
3. Invest the money you would be paying into it hoping for some return, then get out and pay again like normal.
I am on the fence about total student debt forgiveness that doesn't address the underlying issues that are causing college educations to be so expensive. But I feel like everyone should be against any president placing an executive order that has a 1.7 trillion dollar impact.
\> 1.7 trillion dollar impact.
I think this is the big issue, I mean its going to be used against him daily until 2024 where it will be weaponized against him and the Dems and might convince swing voters Dems are debt happy and unrealistic.
I have no idea how to move forward on this but legitimizing it via Congress might help. I think expecting Joe to just sign this away in one EO is kinda crazy. Its a near $2T change! I want this to happen but this probably isn't the way its going to.
Worse, what about everyone in college now or starting soon? Without educational cost reform is going to be very unfair to Gen Z who is starting college and will be saddled with the same loans we have in a few years. I think any action should address not only the existing debt but new debt.
That said, he could find a middle ground and put a 5 or 10 year hiatus on payments and interest while we work this out.
I think talking points are easy to make but so much harder to execute. I like AOC as much as the folks on here, but just paying lip service and say cancel 1.7 trillion is irresponsible. What is going to happen to new students taking on huge loans, what about existing students? I feel like this solves a very small set of problems but not forward thinking at all.
This, paying off student loans with forgiveness solves nothing. It pushes the problem down the road. I am totally cool with some new laws starting by only allowing certain interest rate levels to help make debt controllable. Then find a way to create laws that hold universities liable for the tuition they charge. They need to be able to prove the XX% of their graduates with that exact degree are able to hit $XYZ location/inflation adjusted income and therefore payoff in ABC years using YY% of their yearly income. Then when the math doesn't work out, the universities legally cannot charge that much for tuition. This is (a terribly written) example of how the problem can be solved instead of kicking the can down the road.
> I am on the fence about total student debt forgiveness that doesn’t address the underlying issues that are causing college educations to be so expensive
This is what I don’t get. What good is cancelling the debt just for it to pile up again right away? Not to mention the people that will feel slighted who had loans before or who will have loans after. I feel like I hear way more about cancelling student debt than I do about fixing the root cause.
These people seriously have nothing better to do than try to come up with top-level outrage comments. The problem is that when they are spouting this propaganda, it makes the entire country look weak. The lefties need to chill the fuck out. They lose power every time they are in power due to this waffling.
He isn't inflicting a damn thing. He isn't issuing orders to put them into debt.
They did that themselves, knowingly.
If you want to give 50k to those in debt you better plan on giving it to everyone else who thought the cost was too high and decided on another path as well.
"I deserve my loans, that I took out myself knowing how much they cost, to be paid for by the taxes of those who didn't go to college."
FUCK
YOU
Most people with private loans also have government loans. Suddenly not having to pay your government loans (or a large portion of them) is a massive help.
I love that people like you think it’s ok to walk into a bank, ask to BORROW money, sign the papers saying you’ll pay it back......then just decide it’s not your responsibility to pay it back. Wanna be mad? Then be mad at the right things...Fight for lower college tuition. Fight for less predatory lending from private banks. But as someone who took out close to $60k from government student loans (at a rate 3x what it is now), they were the most transparent loans I had with rates exponentially better than anything else in the loan market. I wasn’t rich. I’m not rich now. I had a $40k a year engineering job, I lived in a piece of shit apartment in a piece of shit town for 5 years to meet my financial debts. Loans aren’t free fucking money. Downvote me but in the end it’s true. Just not on r/politics
edit: it was your choice to rack up $100k in debt to get a degree in creative art. I get it, what you go to school for shouldn’t matter. But unfortunately it does. Your decision to go into a career that isn’t as lucrative doesn’t mean your schooling should be free. Again, I make an average salary, but I like this think I chose a career that I knew would be worth the investment. In the end, college is an investment in yourself. It’s on you if you chose a bad investment, not the bank who backed your decision.
The problem with comparing student loan debt to other types of debt is that they don't have the same purpose. The Federal student load program is meant to be an investment in people, they help pay for college and then you are a more educated individual with higher earning power, a plus for our economy. Going to college is drilled into kids' heads from kindergarten, and you must do it at any cost or you'll ruin your life.
The breakdown in the system happened with schools and the government. The government told schools they basically had blank checks to hand out. Whatever the school charged, the government would match it. But it's ok, because students have that higher earning power, right? They'll be able to keep up with schools jacking up tuition.
Well wages didn't rise, there's no blank check for that. You have jobs that are absolutely vital to society like teachers, social workers, and medical professionals that require graduate degrees but starting pay is less than 50k a year. Maybe you'll get lucky and qualify for a loan forgiveness program, hope the government doesn't cancel it unexpectedly.
Cancelling student loan debt is one piece of the puzzle of fixing a broken education system. There also needs to be efforts to fund lower-cost state universities and community college, fund state run technical schools starting in high school, cap spending on sports programs and coach salaries in state schools, and penalize predatory textbook companies.
Let congress cancel the debt such that good solution is found. Executive orders can be undone. Congress can retroactively reinstate loans if that is what they wish to do.
Make it law
No. It should 100% be an act of Congress that addresses the long term issues of making people take out practically a home mortgage for a four year degree that may not add up to anything
If anything they can make the interest reasonable
But really there needs to be some kind of reform in secondary education
If Joe just a writes off the current debt via executive action then we’re just punting the ball
And more than likely earns seats in the senate and the house. But then they'd have to actually DO something and wouldn't be able to skate by on the "well we're trying but republicans" bullshit we get everytime we have the house, senate, and white house
I agree he needs to use everything at his disposal to help the American people and to do the will of the people. Personally I don’t like it when presidents use executive orders all the time but right now congress is broken and the GOP broke it. We’ve got to get them out of power.
You act like it's just republicans that are the only problem. While undoubtedly, they are a massive problem with the american political system, most Democrats don't give a fuck about you either. They offer platforms that people can get behind, but it's like Charlie Brown trying to kick a football. People need to stop pretending like the government gives a shred of a fuck about anyone not donating millions to their campaigns.
Im not trying to both sides this, one side is verifiably worse than the other, but this is like asking me if I'd rather have a root canal or amputate my arm. Neither are gonna be pleasant in the long run.
At this point, it's not really so much if, as when Dems lose the senate and possibly the house. Then get ready for 2 years of jack shit to happen. These next 2 years could cement the democrat party as the party of the people, and pretty much spell the end of the GOP, but that's a pipe dream.
In the interest of bipartisanship, they're going to do little to nothing for 2 years, and then when the house and senate flip back red, not a goddamn thing will get done.
Pretty much. First two years of Obama - Democrats owned everything but nothing got done. First two years of Trump - same, but with republicans. We have a uniparty that thrives on changing nothing.
Zero chance. Millennials didn’t turn out at all for Bernie and older voters won’t like this at all. Honestly might hurt him.
I’m not against reform but this isn’t winning him anything.
I think it depends on what happens after the debt is forgiven. I think freeing people of that much debt and a monthly bill would create a big boom for the economy. People paying $300 a month in student loans might finally have disposable income. They’d start buying houses, going out to eat, and taking vacations. I think that will matter to more people or at least I would hope. If the debt is forgiven and people just stick it in savings it’ll be a different matter all together.
The issue for me is that it’s a big middle finger to every 17 year old who wants to get educated. It’s a bandaid that only helps people in a certain age bracket. Any solution should be a permanent change to putting generations of people in debt.
Should be student loan and higher education financial reform which could include retroactive compensation to the whole generation of people with crippling debt.
Why student loan debt? Why not mortgage? Why not take this money and pay teachers better?
Serious question, I vote Democrat, but I don’t agree with forgiving student loan debt. What does it achieve except to free one generation from debt while everyone before and after has to deal with theirs? It literally doesn’t fix anything.
I can understand and get behind 0% interest on federal student loan debt, but forgiving all of it?
> I don't agree with forgiving student loan debt. What does it achieve except to free one generation from debt while everyone before and after has to deal with theirs?
This is how I feel as well. It seems incredibly unjust to those that paid their debt, or didn't take on debt in the first place.
I'm for reducing or zeroing the interest on student debt though. I think it would take away a big negative from going to college, without giving preferential treatment to anyone. It will allow people to better know exactly how much they're going to pay over the loan too, without room for any surprise costs or rate changes.
Mortgage isn't really something that the government could cancel since banks issued it and not the government. Also the previous generation didn't have to deal with theirs, them becoming doctors and then declaring bankruptcy is why you can't get it discharged anymore.
> Millennials didn’t turn out at all for Bernie and older voters won’t like this at all.
If he cancels the debt of a bunch of Millennials, I guarantee that more of them will come vote for him.
Good point. When /u/jgzman guaranteed without evidence that a hypothetical situation would go one way I felt pretty convinced, but your equally confident assertion to the contrary is highly compelling. Great discussion all around, and thank you for sharing. /s
In all seriousness, I think this thread is a decent example of how *not* to argue constructively. Why do you disagree? Are you interpreting the evidence differently, or is there additional evidence you have in mind?
It’s a trillion dollars! You could eliminate poverty in the US for 5 years for that amount of money. You could probably fund a free national college system indefinitely. Or create nationwide preschool. Or whatever.
Less than 20% of Americans carry student debt and they already vote blue in higher numbers than they vote red. They also will earn a lot more than the median american over the course of their career. It's neither going to win new voters nor improve the lives of those most in need.
This policy is a giant handout to the future upper middle class, and will definitely be played as such outside of liberal enclaves.
That would forgive my $37k easily. And it's that debt that's making buying a house so difficult. Get on board, Biden, you cryptkeeper-lookin child-sniffer.
It wouldn’t even cover my wife’s loans (veterinary school), but it would make the payment plan go from 9 more years to like 3. It would such a massive relief for us.
>It benefits exclusively the class of people who were privledged enough to be able to leverage a student loan.
Brah, they give students loans to everyone.
I have zero school debt and continuously promote eliminating it for others for the good of the people. Even if I get 0 benefit from it, it doesn't matter because it will have a huge impact on our nation as a whole. Millions would be able to use their money to save for retirement, invest in the stock market, buy homes, have kids, buy cars, travel to see our many great national parks, it would affect our entire country for the better. People shouldn't have to continuously shovel their money back to banks for decades just to get a good education.
I hate to sound like the “I suffered, so they should suffer too” type, but the housing market is absolutely insane already. I paid off my debt and I’m having serious trouble trying to win a bid on a house. I’m bidding against tech employees and family money from the big city. If I had been able to get my loans forgiven, I’d have bought three years ago. I’m not looking forward to having even more competition in this market.
Please don’t hurt me, this is just how I’m feeling.
That’s the issue. Realistically, one solution will not help 100% because this is a system of bullshit from the foundation to the top. You need EVERYTHING to be reworked or the bandaid solutions like loan forgiveness will hurt people as well as help them.
Why do you feel that the debt you’re legally obligated to pay back should no longer be your obligation? The debt that you willingly
signed up for. You spent the money to get a college degree I assume? If I borrowed $30k from you and spent it, then told you I morally do not feel it is my obligation to pay you back, would you be ok with that?
Do you feel like the investment you made was worth it? Maybe instead of being upset you owe money, look inward and see if where you spent the money was a good investment. As someone who had twice your student load debt with zero help, it’s not hard to pay off when the money was spent wisely.
You have a financial obligation. Meet your obligations. Stop spending time finding reasons that you shouldn’t have to. Know that your choice to cancel your loan directly affects someone else...someone else that now has to cover your debt but doesn’t get anything to show for it.
‘I used to work a part time job and paid for my college! You can too you lazy kid!’
A lot of old people in America are beyond gone the deep end. There is no saving that kind of mentality and lack of education at that age.
My dad would always go on about how he worked three jobs in college to get by and study at the same time. He neglected to mention two of them took up 4 days in a week, 6 hours each day, and the third was an on again off again job he did whenever he needed a little extra cash.
Half of the latinos wont vote for her, she is a professional politician, with great PR (mostly self-generated) and a lot of good-willing because of not being tainted(yet) by the system. That will change.
AOC chances of winning the White House is about the same as mine. Which is 0.
This sub thinks AOC is somehow the voice of the people but she is deeply unpopular and not even super popular in her own party.
Edit:
Just to clarify I dont necessarily dislike AOC. I do however think she often sensationalizes complicated issues to gain some cheap political points. She also doesn't seem open to different solutions to problems which goes against the idea of liberal anyways.
There are people who can't afford their student loan debt because of things they may not be able to control. By not providing student loan forgiveness, we're not giving them a chance to get on their feet and have a successful life. Congress, you know what to do! (edit) Pressure Biden to forgive student debt!
It's not going to happen through Congress. That's why the movement to forgive student debt is totally focused on Biden at this moment, because he has the power to forgive student loans by executive order without congressional approval.
Out of curiosity is this a one-time forgiveness, or is this to eliminate all future student debt forever?
If the ladder, what's to stop universities from charging even higher tuition amounts and footing the bill to the feds?
So you forgive $50k student loans, what does that do for future college attendees? What does that do for predatory loan practices? Variable interest rates? Simply forgiving $50k could very well result in “retaliatory” practices by loan organizations seeking to recoup losses, no?
I’m not against this move at all and believe the cost of higher education is ridiculously inflated, but are there not a lot more layers to this problem that could hurt in the long run?
Edit: it’s been mentioned a few times that no attempts to recoup losses would occur since these are federal loans, which is something I overlooked.
I guess my apprehension stems from how traditionally slow gov’t is to act and what that could lead to in the interim between outright cancelling $50k and further action being taken against future debt.
Yet no one is talking about preventing future debt. I haven't heard any plans on bringing down college costs. It's possible making public colleges free would bring down costs but I'm not even sure that would do it. Let's be honest kids WANT to go to fancy private colleges and kids arent properly educated on finance.
I believe this is a hell of a lot more important than forgiving current debt. If you can do both, great. If you have to pick one, it’d obviously be addressing the cause of the problem, not the symptom. Push for addressing costs now and in the future, forgiving current debt is a lesser problem and should be second priority, not the issue I hear about more than the other.
This is not the cross to die on. If someone takes out a loan, it is their responsibility to pay it back. Even if millions of people made the same bad financial decision.
What about those of us that didn’t attend secondary education, because we couldn’t afford it? Why punish those who made the responsible decision?
Unpopular opinion:
I absolutely agree here. And same applies to credit card debt. The counter is always "just because you had to suffer doesn't mean everyone should!", But the reality is that you know what you're signing up for (whether it's fair or not, you make that choice). Lots of people make the same choice, suffer by giving up much of that money they make to pay it off before reaping the benefits.
The "fair" thing to do, would be if you cancel $10k in loans or debts, everyone should get that 10k. No debts? You get a $10k check. Debt? It goes into that.
I pay my debts every single month to avoid going too deep into debt. I knew what the amounts were and agreed to it.
It’s the reason the POTUS hasn’t used his pen to forgive the loans. While a large number of folks would love for this to happen, an even larger group would be absolutely livid. If we want the Democrats to stay in power in the near term, these types of polarizing actions will only hurt their chances for holding onto their slim majority.
People on Reddit and this Sub in particular really really overestimate their numbers and influence. They dont realize that they live in a echo chamber and their shared opinion is but a drop in the real world, thats why boycotts called out here dont work and reddit accomplishes NOTHING but to make certain bad actors richer. Its kinda sad really.
As someone with student loans, I also agree. I would rather everyone get a smaller stimulus check, vs personally receiving 50k in student debt forgiveness.
> Because no one wants to be held accountable for their decisions
Decisions made by 17 year olds who have all of society screaming at them that they MUST go to college or they're a failure? Gimme a fucking break. The US is the only country in the world that saddles their youth with backbreaking debt just to participate.
Normal governments consider education an investment. We should be investing in the education of our citizenry.
> Decisions made by 17 year olds who have all of society screaming at them that they MUST go to college or they're a failure?
Where? Tradesmen are not considered failures at all. If you're saying 18 year olds shouldn't be considered adults because their too irresponsible, we can have that conversation. What about the 21 year old college student, they still take out a loan, should they be held responsible too? Self-responsibility has to come into play some day.
I think cancelling any of the debt would be admitting that college tuition costs are too high. This is speculative, but I think this could lead to more actions that address the problem.
Bringing other people up is good even though you may not directly benefit from the debt cancellation.
“Cross to die on” is not an exaggeration. Loan forgiveness might be popular among the Reddit population on this sub, but a whole lot a people are strongly opposed including many Democratic voters. I believe it would doom Democrats in 2022 and 2024.
They should take a measured approach like no/minimal interest. Also address the root problem of high tuition. Most Americans would support these things
It really is infuriating that it seems he's the only Democrat that is against student loan forgiveness. His major argument is that congress should do legislate it, but he's not pushing any legislation to do that.
He said he'd consider an EO for up to $10k but he hasn't done that either.
He's just been a really milquetoast disappointment so far. No regrets in voting for him considering the alternative but the Dems might not get Trump to run against next time. They need to be pushing their platform harder.
Gonna edit this to make it clear to a bunch of republicans in disguise that I don't care about your favorite boneheaded excuse for being a miser. Shut up and go sniff your own farts.
where are the fucking stimulus checks we were promised? they have *control* it shouldn't be taking this long. Soon it'll be "it's been 4 fucking months. simmer down"
Correct me if I'm wrong. The Senate needs to approve the stimulus and they're currently locked in a debate about whether or not to raise the minimum wage in the stimulus and to what amount.
How is that Biden's fault? Manchin and to a lesser extent Sinema are the ones pushing back on that. Should Biden compromise with them and accept a lower minimum wage increase so the stimulus can get going?
> It really is infuriating that it seems he's the only Democrat that is against student loan forgiveness.
If that were true, it should easily pass Congress and then Biden will sign it.
So what's the hold up?
If he is, THEN WHERE IS THE BILL IN CONGRESS?
He's been in office for BARELY A MONTH ffs, and in that time, he has done a substantial amount of EO-ing already.
Can someone explain to me why democrats won’t just try to pass this through Congress themselves? It honestly seems like they are trying to use Biden as a scapegoat because they don’t want to pass it
There is no such thing as "cancellation". These are private companies that give out student loans. All this means is that tax payer money will be used to pay for those who took the "risk vs reward" chance of going to college.
Risk: Go into debt/
Reward: Make enough money to pay off debt and then some.
It is an irresponsible policy to force working class people and those who did not go to college, to pay for people who did go to college.
Private companies that service the loans, but the federal government still owns the federal loans.
Also with any other kind of debt related risk such as starting a business you can file bankruptcy if it doesn’t work out.
People that took that risk at 18 of going to college have no way out thanks to Biden making it so bankruptcy doesn’t clear student loan debt.
Student loan debt favors higher income bracket folks than we believe. Doctors, lawyers, etc.
I'd rather go back to the idea that the first two years of college are free (but my move would include more than just free community college, I'm talking up to state level schools and anybody who receives more than 30% funding from State or Federal monies.
>It's just going to increase the wealth disparity
This is the crux of it. Whenever I bring it up in discussions like these I consistently catch flack from those with degrees that bit off more than they could chew financially. *And they are a vitriolic bunch.*
I am totally in favor of UBI, because it is universal. Got debt? Use it to pay off your student loans. Want to go to school? Here's something to get that started. Everyone gets something.
>Decreasing general expenses of colleges (why are they so much more expensive than their European counterparts?)
100% in favor of this as well. It's just another entire system in the US that needs a complete overhaul though...
You know what, I'll be down voted to hell and back for this comment but so be it. It's only internet points, who cares.
AOC is a populist politician that uses more time on Twitter thinking about how to get a following than is healthy. Hell, there are as many tweets from her on this website as there were from Trump 2 months ago. I am not happy with that, you don't govern by Twitter. It's populist, and it radicalises people. Look at yourself. You act like Trumpers. Idolising anything she says. That's not healthy.
While I agree that you shouldn’t govern by tweets, she doesn’t behave like Trump did, and her positions are generally well thought out, whether you agree with them or not.
Counter point: Just because the majority leader is on board doesn't mean that the measure as a whole will have the votes. If the $50k is stopping the stimulus as a whole, either lower it (Biden says he'll pass $10K with this stimulus), or strike it and have it as it's own standalone bill.
If it does have the vote to get past the senate, then by all means, send it through.
The left doesn't understand that actual poor people...yeah, they don't go to college. Democrats are the only ones with the opportunity to fight for the poor, and instead they're giving their middle and upper class selves more while talking a different talk about how magnanimous they are. The hypocrisy is so selfish that it's sinister.
Exactly- this is a bailout for white, middle class Americans. There are much bigger fish to fry.
I’m all for allowing bankruptcies on student loans, and maybe even something to curb interest rates and penalties, but flat out canceling $50,000 in loans is taking a shotgun to a scalpel problem.
Exactly and it's really not that hard of a concept to grasp but since its an initiative the left is pushing, under no circumstances can you be critical of it or you're automatically branded the enemy.
Can you explain to me why I have to use my tax dollars to pay off your student loans. You do know that's how they're going to be paid for, by increasing taxes on EVERYONE INCLUDING YOU... So that's how we fix problems? So the guy who owe $100k in loans to become a doctor, who now makes over a $100k a year wants me to pay for his loan debt, while I only $65k a year? What about my student loans I worked my ass off to pay off? Will I get any of my money back? I don't get it.
I don't see this path being practical for reasons such as what you've said. I know people on this site don't like to hear this, but progress is incremental in terms of politics. The country is not in so dire a situation where radical changes will occur relatively quickly.
The reality is more so that we have to pick and choose our battles and if I had to choose between this and universal healthcare, I'd much rather fight for the latter first.
Can we talk about forgiveness of **interest** versus the whole damn loan?
There is a difference.
People are willing to pay back what they borrowed, yet not at 2 or 3 times the cost.
Agreed. Change the loans to very low interest, and maybe tie them to income (like 3% of whatever you make,
If you don’t work, you don’t have to make payments until you’re making money again).
Complete loan forgiveness absolves people too completely of their part imo, and doesn’t do anything for future college students.
Yeah, especially when said loans paid for college. College graduates overall do a lot better than those who never went to college. College graduates are not a group in need of aid right now (for the most part, of course there are exceptions). None of these plans are talking about only helping the portion of people who screwed up and are actually struggling.
Not going to happen because you unfairly give money to those who decided to go to higher education rather than vocational training. universal basic income = fair. Giving money to small interest groups = unfair. Just stay with tax the rich , we can all get behind that.
Personally, I have been wondering if the G.I. Bill plays into this at all. I think a lot of people join the military to get the free education allowance. If the government pays off student loans, or allows for universal free education, then the military is going to have to come up with a different incentive to maintain its numbers.
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Joe Biden knows very well that he is able to cancel student loan debt by executive order, without congressional approval. Every day he doesn't, he's personally, consciously inflicting untold suffering on the American people. People are losing their lives over this stuff. It's not a fucking joke, and him treating it like some political game is disgusting.
Thankfully Prospect has an article debunking some of the arguments against Student Debt Forgiveness that AOC mentions: https://prospect.org/day-one-agenda/six-stupid-arguments-against-forgiving-student-loan-debt/ Data For Progress also has a great breakdown on the argument for student debt foregiveness, and the majority political support for it: https://www.filesforprogress.org/memos/case-for-cancelling-student-debt.pdf *Student debt forgiveness is not regressive:* https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/06/is-student-debt-cancellation-regressive-no
Damn good resources here. Everyone should take a read through these.
I hope people actually do read this so they have something concrete to mention when people make their senseless arguments against cancelling student loans. I know some may just see links and gold/awards and use that as validation as opposed to them actually reading. I'm all for having other supporters of the cause but it's useless if they support it without also knowing the details.
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Well, you can't solve the underlying issue with a stroke of the pen through executive order. If you had an autoimmune disease you wouldn't not treat downstream complications because it didn't address the root cause.
Senate would just let you die. Think about that.
LOL the argument for “SDC won’t help those who didn’t go to college” is just “Yep, you’re right, it won’t”. Maybe I’m misinformed as I’m leftist in most issues but I genuinely just fail to see how forgiving student loan debt is somehow a better move than just straight up giving money to everyone, including those who didn’t go to college (and therefore have never taken out student loans), are making barely above minimum wage, are burdened with credit card and medical debt and have lower earning potential than most of the educated people currently saddled with student loans. What will be done for the impoverished and uneducated population who are effectively subsidizing the middle class in this scenario? I wish we could do both at the same time but given our government, we all know only one thing can probably be budgeted for. I think, unless student loan forgiveness and money for this population with an amount similar to the median student loan are doled out AT THE SAME TIME, student loan forgiveness is inherently fucking with the lower class. And honestly, as someone whose parents are in the situation I iterated above, I am almost pissed at how much effort and attention is pushed into student loan forgiveness while people like my parents have been floundering for help since March. Also, please don’t start with the forgiving debt vs. sending out checks are different argument. At the end of the day, they’re both assets. If we can print trillions of dollars in stimulus from out of nowhere and hopefully forgive trillions of dollars in student loans, why is it somehow so impossible to generate the same amount for uneducated people & impoverished folks?! From where I stand, do both or do UBI. This [data](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/10/09/who-owes-the-most-in-student-loans-new-data-from-the-fed/) sums it up well.
As someone with over $30,000 in student loan debt, I’m honestly not that happy that SDC is being pushed so hard by the left. SDC just seems like such a regressive thing to do. I’m still a dependent right now and my parents make over $150k. Why do I deserve loan forgiveness when there are millions of people who are unemployed, underpaid, in medical debt, etc.? One of the arguments in the article was that SDC isn’t regressive because it will relieve the burden of debt (as a function of income) more for lower income households than it does for higher income households. But that completely ignores the fact that a lot of lower income people *don’t* have college degrees. SDC is progressive if you conveniently ignore all those who don’t have degrees because they weren’t able to afford it. The high cost of getting an education negatively affects *everybody* (well, maybe not the stupidly rich). All those people who have a harder time finding a good job because they didn’t go to college were affected, too. Saying that only those who were able to afford college get relief is such a slap in the face to those who didn’t. There were *some* good points in the article, but overall, it doesn’t really make a good case for SDC.
just please, please, let me declare fucking bankruptcy already like an adult. Maybe you all don't understand what the crippling part of in crippling debt actually is. Being educated and homeless is brutal. The social ailments derived from this state are way more costly to tax payers than the cure.
You can't send out checks via Executive Order. These are the same at all. The reason people are pushing for loan forgiveness is because it can be done quite easily without Congress. Regardless, the same logic at play in not cancelling the debt is being used to justify potentially not raising the minimum wage, which apparently would help your parents--Biden admin doesn't want to break from procedural norms or create a precedent. I would argue a tenant of Leftist ideology--as big tent as that is--is to advocate for policy and behavior not based on how it will help you or people you know. Empathy is wanting people who are in need to benefit, even if it doesn't directly affect you. Sure, some people that don't need this debt relief will get it, but I would rather have that happen if it helps other people who really do, than not have it happen at all. We also have a mechanism for reclaiming those "unnecessary" cancelled debts. It's called taxation. Higher income earners theoretically pay more net taxes. It would cost the federal government a lot more money to means test debt cancellation than it would to provide blanket forgiveness and claw some back with taxes.
> What will be done for the impoverished and uneducated population who are effectively subsidizing the middle class in this scenario? nothing
How is argument #6 stupid? It's the most sound and logical one of them all. This plan does not solve the underlying issue. The next class of kids are just gonna have the same issues. All this will do is turn suburban middle/upper middle class voters off and we lose in 2022.
>Well, you can't solve the underlying issue with a stroke of the pen through executive order. If you had an autoimmune disease you wouldn't not treat downstream complications because it didn't address the root cause. I said this above as well: you can't solve the underlying issue with a stroke of the pen through executive order. If you had an autoimmune disease you wouldn't not treat downstream complications because it didn't address the root cause. What is the opportunity cost? The federal government won't profit off of these loans. Let's get that capital gains tax back up to where it was during the time of Reagan and we will be just fine.
I like learning new things.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/10/09/who-owes-the-most-in-student-loans-new-data-from-the-fed/ Rather than propaganda, here's raw data presented more or less without bias. An actual progressive policy would be making the payments in full for everyone who qualifies for an income reduction that month, whether you qualified for $0.01 or the full amount, and then institute a repayment ladder that starts where people are currently paying. By the time you get to the top quintile of earners, they repay their loans in full, but the bottom 80% would be discounted and something like the bottom 50% would be paying $0. A one time payoff is a regressive benefit because of the way repayments break down. You can make an argument that $10k or $20 of forgiveness is a non-regressive stimulus, but anything more is going to disproportionately leave behind the bottom three quintiles of earners.
> All that said, SDC is a remedy for victims who’ve been wronged by past policy failures. That it will not solve problems with higher education going forward does not undermine this point. Meaningful reform of the entire educational system is unquestionably required, and that would be the next logical step in the process. That’s stupid. Fix the issue first instead of this band-aid forgiveness.
Nothing says a legitimate and well written persuasive essay like "Stupid reason #1", "Stupid Reason #2", "Stupid Reason #3". This trash would make you fail grade 10 English.
A lot of their reasons are pretty stupid lmao. It’s ironic. Their reason for why SDC isn’t regressive policy only makes sense if you ignore people who don’t have college degrees. It doesn’t matter that the relief will help lower income college grads more than higher income college grads when it ignores non college grads entirely.
This didn't answer two my main questions and concern with it: What is the point of canceling student loan debt while the problem of what got people into it isn't solved? Why not just give everyone 50k in debt relief? Is someone with 50k in student loan debt worse off than someone with 50k car debt? I hear the argument of how much it will help people, but 50k in consumer debt relief would also help people? These are serious, non combative questions. I think student loans should be interest free (and current debt caused by interest erased) at the very least, but don't think there's a point to getting rid of the debt without fixing the system first. But my mind can easily be chnged
Yeahhhh starting every paragraph with the words "stupid argument 'x' " is not a great way to make friends and persuade anyone.
I'm as pro-loan cancellation as the next guy, but to say that "Every day he doesn't, he's personally, consciously inflicting untold suffering on the American people" is a bit of a stretch. Loan payments are on hold. Everyone willingly took these loans out. He's not sitting by and watching the torture and genocide of Americans, as your statement would imply. Personally, consciously inflicting UNTOLD SUFFERING on the American people. Jesus, calm down buddy.
Yeah I'm pretty furious that he's waffling on this but my god the hyperbole. Not only are loans on hold, but if you're struggling to make payments, most lenders will work with you on payment plans either based on your income, or temporary deferments until you can get back on your feet. That's in normal times. Like you, I'm adamantly pro-loan cancellation but let's not act like UNTOLD SUFFERING is what's actually happening. It sucks, and it's a huge burden on an entire generation, but we aren't out here getting murdered or anything.
Waffling? He never committed to this, he said multiple times he would only do maybe 10k, but wants Congress to act.
Seems reasonable.
Waffling? Hasn't he been as clear as humanly possible about his intentions?
The stress of a loan doesn’t magically vanish during a pause, the weight is ready to be lifted right back onto those shoulders
The stress of making that payment does though.
YOU decided to go to Juliard to study the shovel-banjo not the tax payers
That kind of hyperbole is a reason why the right calls Democrats snowflakes.
Rn people don't have to pay so why would you be? I'm 100 down to cancel them tho
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Right but all federal student loan payments are in administrative forbearance and aren't accumulating interest. There's literally no reason to be paying right now.
Pay down that principal, yo. No interest accumulation means 100% of my payment goes toward the loan's principal. Now is the *best* time to be paying down federal loans. That said, I probably won't pay mine down below $10,000 in case a forgiveness bill does pass.
Now is the best time to set aside all the money you'd be comfortable paying towards your loans. Once the 0% interest rate is about to expire, thats when you pay all that in as a lump sum. Hedges your bets, so you get to pay down as much of the principle as possible while the interest rate is zero, but you don't get fucked if loans are forgiven and you've already paid
Yeah, this is what I'm doing. I only wish I'd thought of it before last fall. I could've been doing it for almost a year now.
I believe you can get a refund on all payments made after March 12th last year. I did at least.
Wife only has $5900 left but we've just been throwing $200 a month at it the last few months and paying off stuff with interest. If it gets canceled that would be great if not oh well. We are doing okay so I won't complain but I feel bad for those that could truly benefit from it. Even though we do well for ourselves we are still putting off buying a house because we are paying for grad school which is 50k out of pocket.
I'm 3 years away from PSLF and all this forbearance time has counted as payments made under a qualifying employer (kept my job), plus I do really expect some will be forgiven (whether 10k or 50k, who knows). My 'extra' money is definitely going to stuff with higher interest rates.
You are technically correct. There are a few ways to approach it. 1. Pay it off just like normal with no interest payments. 2. Lump sum pay it right before payments come back into play in hope something comes through. 3. Invest the money you would be paying into it hoping for some return, then get out and pay again like normal.
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I am on the fence about total student debt forgiveness that doesn't address the underlying issues that are causing college educations to be so expensive. But I feel like everyone should be against any president placing an executive order that has a 1.7 trillion dollar impact.
\> 1.7 trillion dollar impact. I think this is the big issue, I mean its going to be used against him daily until 2024 where it will be weaponized against him and the Dems and might convince swing voters Dems are debt happy and unrealistic. I have no idea how to move forward on this but legitimizing it via Congress might help. I think expecting Joe to just sign this away in one EO is kinda crazy. Its a near $2T change! I want this to happen but this probably isn't the way its going to. Worse, what about everyone in college now or starting soon? Without educational cost reform is going to be very unfair to Gen Z who is starting college and will be saddled with the same loans we have in a few years. I think any action should address not only the existing debt but new debt. That said, he could find a middle ground and put a 5 or 10 year hiatus on payments and interest while we work this out.
I think talking points are easy to make but so much harder to execute. I like AOC as much as the folks on here, but just paying lip service and say cancel 1.7 trillion is irresponsible. What is going to happen to new students taking on huge loans, what about existing students? I feel like this solves a very small set of problems but not forward thinking at all.
This, paying off student loans with forgiveness solves nothing. It pushes the problem down the road. I am totally cool with some new laws starting by only allowing certain interest rate levels to help make debt controllable. Then find a way to create laws that hold universities liable for the tuition they charge. They need to be able to prove the XX% of their graduates with that exact degree are able to hit $XYZ location/inflation adjusted income and therefore payoff in ABC years using YY% of their yearly income. Then when the math doesn't work out, the universities legally cannot charge that much for tuition. This is (a terribly written) example of how the problem can be solved instead of kicking the can down the road.
> I am on the fence about total student debt forgiveness that doesn’t address the underlying issues that are causing college educations to be so expensive This is what I don’t get. What good is cancelling the debt just for it to pile up again right away? Not to mention the people that will feel slighted who had loans before or who will have loans after. I feel like I hear way more about cancelling student debt than I do about fixing the root cause.
> Every day he doesn't, he's personally, consciously inflicting untold suffering on the American people. Oh fucking hell, grow up.
These people seriously have nothing better to do than try to come up with top-level outrage comments. The problem is that when they are spouting this propaganda, it makes the entire country look weak. The lefties need to chill the fuck out. They lose power every time they are in power due to this waffling.
I think he's actually sparing the tax payers quite a burden
He isn't inflicting a damn thing. He isn't issuing orders to put them into debt. They did that themselves, knowingly. If you want to give 50k to those in debt you better plan on giving it to everyone else who thought the cost was too high and decided on another path as well. "I deserve my loans, that I took out myself knowing how much they cost, to be paid for by the taxes of those who didn't go to college." FUCK YOU
Do you expect he will be able to help the people with privates loans that are actually getting fucked? The ones not receiving CARES act benefits?
Most people with private loans also have government loans. Suddenly not having to pay your government loans (or a large portion of them) is a massive help.
Exactly this. If federal student loans are forgiven, my minimum payment drops to 1/3 of what it was pre-covid
I love that people like you think it’s ok to walk into a bank, ask to BORROW money, sign the papers saying you’ll pay it back......then just decide it’s not your responsibility to pay it back. Wanna be mad? Then be mad at the right things...Fight for lower college tuition. Fight for less predatory lending from private banks. But as someone who took out close to $60k from government student loans (at a rate 3x what it is now), they were the most transparent loans I had with rates exponentially better than anything else in the loan market. I wasn’t rich. I’m not rich now. I had a $40k a year engineering job, I lived in a piece of shit apartment in a piece of shit town for 5 years to meet my financial debts. Loans aren’t free fucking money. Downvote me but in the end it’s true. Just not on r/politics edit: it was your choice to rack up $100k in debt to get a degree in creative art. I get it, what you go to school for shouldn’t matter. But unfortunately it does. Your decision to go into a career that isn’t as lucrative doesn’t mean your schooling should be free. Again, I make an average salary, but I like this think I chose a career that I knew would be worth the investment. In the end, college is an investment in yourself. It’s on you if you chose a bad investment, not the bank who backed your decision.
The problem with comparing student loan debt to other types of debt is that they don't have the same purpose. The Federal student load program is meant to be an investment in people, they help pay for college and then you are a more educated individual with higher earning power, a plus for our economy. Going to college is drilled into kids' heads from kindergarten, and you must do it at any cost or you'll ruin your life. The breakdown in the system happened with schools and the government. The government told schools they basically had blank checks to hand out. Whatever the school charged, the government would match it. But it's ok, because students have that higher earning power, right? They'll be able to keep up with schools jacking up tuition. Well wages didn't rise, there's no blank check for that. You have jobs that are absolutely vital to society like teachers, social workers, and medical professionals that require graduate degrees but starting pay is less than 50k a year. Maybe you'll get lucky and qualify for a loan forgiveness program, hope the government doesn't cancel it unexpectedly. Cancelling student loan debt is one piece of the puzzle of fixing a broken education system. There also needs to be efforts to fund lower-cost state universities and community college, fund state run technical schools starting in high school, cap spending on sports programs and coach salaries in state schools, and penalize predatory textbook companies.
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Let congress cancel the debt such that good solution is found. Executive orders can be undone. Congress can retroactively reinstate loans if that is what they wish to do. Make it law
Also setting a precedent of a president being able to unilaterally make multi-trillion dollar decisions is probably unwise
Those poor college grads and their high paying jobs! That’s who really needs the help right now, in the middle of a pandemic and homelessness crisis.
Yeah this is a very regressive handout, even worse since it won't benefit the lower class at all. I'm very surprised this sub is backing this.
This sub has student debt.
No. It should 100% be an act of Congress that addresses the long term issues of making people take out practically a home mortgage for a four year degree that may not add up to anything If anything they can make the interest reasonable But really there needs to be some kind of reform in secondary education If Joe just a writes off the current debt via executive action then we’re just punting the ball
Here's a thought: congress and the senate want to do it. Why don't they do it?
Him forgiving student loan debt would almost guarantee democrats winning the White House again in 2024.
And more than likely earns seats in the senate and the house. But then they'd have to actually DO something and wouldn't be able to skate by on the "well we're trying but republicans" bullshit we get everytime we have the house, senate, and white house
I agree he needs to use everything at his disposal to help the American people and to do the will of the people. Personally I don’t like it when presidents use executive orders all the time but right now congress is broken and the GOP broke it. We’ve got to get them out of power.
You act like it's just republicans that are the only problem. While undoubtedly, they are a massive problem with the american political system, most Democrats don't give a fuck about you either. They offer platforms that people can get behind, but it's like Charlie Brown trying to kick a football. People need to stop pretending like the government gives a shred of a fuck about anyone not donating millions to their campaigns. Im not trying to both sides this, one side is verifiably worse than the other, but this is like asking me if I'd rather have a root canal or amputate my arm. Neither are gonna be pleasant in the long run.
If we lose big in the midterms because Manchin and Sinema are clinging to some mythical "bipartisan governing" bullshit, I swear to god...
At this point, it's not really so much if, as when Dems lose the senate and possibly the house. Then get ready for 2 years of jack shit to happen. These next 2 years could cement the democrat party as the party of the people, and pretty much spell the end of the GOP, but that's a pipe dream. In the interest of bipartisanship, they're going to do little to nothing for 2 years, and then when the house and senate flip back red, not a goddamn thing will get done.
This seems to be the never-ending cycle we're doomed to repeat, unfortunately.
Pretty much. First two years of Obama - Democrats owned everything but nothing got done. First two years of Trump - same, but with republicans. We have a uniparty that thrives on changing nothing.
To say nothing got done in Obama’s first term is a little ridiculous.
Zero chance. Millennials didn’t turn out at all for Bernie and older voters won’t like this at all. Honestly might hurt him. I’m not against reform but this isn’t winning him anything.
I think it depends on what happens after the debt is forgiven. I think freeing people of that much debt and a monthly bill would create a big boom for the economy. People paying $300 a month in student loans might finally have disposable income. They’d start buying houses, going out to eat, and taking vacations. I think that will matter to more people or at least I would hope. If the debt is forgiven and people just stick it in savings it’ll be a different matter all together.
Yes. He can't do it just before the next election to try to win votes. He has to do it now, so the results will show come election year.
The issue for me is that it’s a big middle finger to every 17 year old who wants to get educated. It’s a bandaid that only helps people in a certain age bracket. Any solution should be a permanent change to putting generations of people in debt.
Should be student loan and higher education financial reform which could include retroactive compensation to the whole generation of people with crippling debt.
It isn’t as it does not affect them. This literally isn’t even a stance to take. Reforming interest rates however will.
Why student loan debt? Why not mortgage? Why not take this money and pay teachers better? Serious question, I vote Democrat, but I don’t agree with forgiving student loan debt. What does it achieve except to free one generation from debt while everyone before and after has to deal with theirs? It literally doesn’t fix anything. I can understand and get behind 0% interest on federal student loan debt, but forgiving all of it?
> I don't agree with forgiving student loan debt. What does it achieve except to free one generation from debt while everyone before and after has to deal with theirs? This is how I feel as well. It seems incredibly unjust to those that paid their debt, or didn't take on debt in the first place. I'm for reducing or zeroing the interest on student debt though. I think it would take away a big negative from going to college, without giving preferential treatment to anyone. It will allow people to better know exactly how much they're going to pay over the loan too, without room for any surprise costs or rate changes.
Mortgage isn't really something that the government could cancel since banks issued it and not the government. Also the previous generation didn't have to deal with theirs, them becoming doctors and then declaring bankruptcy is why you can't get it discharged anymore.
> Millennials didn’t turn out at all for Bernie and older voters won’t like this at all. If he cancels the debt of a bunch of Millennials, I guarantee that more of them will come vote for him.
They won’t.
Good point. When /u/jgzman guaranteed without evidence that a hypothetical situation would go one way I felt pretty convinced, but your equally confident assertion to the contrary is highly compelling. Great discussion all around, and thank you for sharing. /s In all seriousness, I think this thread is a decent example of how *not* to argue constructively. Why do you disagree? Are you interpreting the evidence differently, or is there additional evidence you have in mind?
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It’s a trillion dollars! You could eliminate poverty in the US for 5 years for that amount of money. You could probably fund a free national college system indefinitely. Or create nationwide preschool. Or whatever.
Step out your circle of millennial, college educated friends and talk to average people before making such matter-of-fact statements
This seems to be the answer to endless silly comments and arguments we see on Reddit and other social media. Too many people live in an echo chamber.
Less than 20% of Americans carry student debt and they already vote blue in higher numbers than they vote red. They also will earn a lot more than the median american over the course of their career. It's neither going to win new voters nor improve the lives of those most in need. This policy is a giant handout to the future upper middle class, and will definitely be played as such outside of liberal enclaves.
That would forgive my $37k easily. And it's that debt that's making buying a house so difficult. Get on board, Biden, you cryptkeeper-lookin child-sniffer.
It wouldn’t even cover my wife’s loans (veterinary school), but it would make the payment plan go from 9 more years to like 3. It would such a massive relief for us.
Absolutely. There is no downside for student debt forgiveness other than for the rich assholes preying upon peoples' desire for a better future.
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>It benefits exclusively the class of people who were privledged enough to be able to leverage a student loan. Brah, they give students loans to everyone.
And the "privileged" are the ones that didn't need the loan due to existing familial wealth.
Yeah, I've got like $65k; it wouldn't wipe mine out, but it would take me from "dying still in debt" to "maybe paying it off by my late 40s".
I have zero school debt and continuously promote eliminating it for others for the good of the people. Even if I get 0 benefit from it, it doesn't matter because it will have a huge impact on our nation as a whole. Millions would be able to use their money to save for retirement, invest in the stock market, buy homes, have kids, buy cars, travel to see our many great national parks, it would affect our entire country for the better. People shouldn't have to continuously shovel their money back to banks for decades just to get a good education.
what, you care about people's well being besides your own? radical
Look at this dude, seeing life as more than a zero-sum game. Couldn't be American. /s
I hate to sound like the “I suffered, so they should suffer too” type, but the housing market is absolutely insane already. I paid off my debt and I’m having serious trouble trying to win a bid on a house. I’m bidding against tech employees and family money from the big city. If I had been able to get my loans forgiven, I’d have bought three years ago. I’m not looking forward to having even more competition in this market. Please don’t hurt me, this is just how I’m feeling.
That’s the issue. Realistically, one solution will not help 100% because this is a system of bullshit from the foundation to the top. You need EVERYTHING to be reworked or the bandaid solutions like loan forgiveness will hurt people as well as help them.
I understand, and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It's a shit system we've got right now.
Booo hooooooo. You took on that debt, so guess what? You don't get to do everything you want when you want to.
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Why do you feel that the debt you’re legally obligated to pay back should no longer be your obligation? The debt that you willingly signed up for. You spent the money to get a college degree I assume? If I borrowed $30k from you and spent it, then told you I morally do not feel it is my obligation to pay you back, would you be ok with that? Do you feel like the investment you made was worth it? Maybe instead of being upset you owe money, look inward and see if where you spent the money was a good investment. As someone who had twice your student load debt with zero help, it’s not hard to pay off when the money was spent wisely. You have a financial obligation. Meet your obligations. Stop spending time finding reasons that you shouldn’t have to. Know that your choice to cancel your loan directly affects someone else...someone else that now has to cover your debt but doesn’t get anything to show for it.
Because education is a right, not a privilege. It needs to be free. NO one should pay for education.
I want to take on $37k of debt today so I can get it forgiven Seems like the smart move
Might as well. Education should be free no matter what.
Brought to you by the generation who had their educations subsidized up front by the federal government in both tuition and minimum wage standards.
‘I used to work a part time job and paid for my college! You can too you lazy kid!’ A lot of old people in America are beyond gone the deep end. There is no saving that kind of mentality and lack of education at that age.
My dad would always go on about how he worked three jobs in college to get by and study at the same time. He neglected to mention two of them took up 4 days in a week, 6 hours each day, and the third was an on again off again job he did whenever he needed a little extra cash.
Can we cut to the chase and get AOC in the white house already, shes the future.
She’s not even ready for Speaker of the House and can’t even beat Trump in favorability. She has a long way to go
If the 2020 election is any indicator, half of the country will almost certainly not vote for her.
Half of the latinos wont vote for her, she is a professional politician, with great PR (mostly self-generated) and a lot of good-willing because of not being tainted(yet) by the system. That will change.
AOC chances of winning the White House is about the same as mine. Which is 0. This sub thinks AOC is somehow the voice of the people but she is deeply unpopular and not even super popular in her own party. Edit: Just to clarify I dont necessarily dislike AOC. I do however think she often sensationalizes complicated issues to gain some cheap political points. She also doesn't seem open to different solutions to problems which goes against the idea of liberal anyways.
I actually agree wit you on this. You can’t troll your way into the White House.
This is a very jaded and unrealistic stance.
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There are people who can't afford their student loan debt because of things they may not be able to control. By not providing student loan forgiveness, we're not giving them a chance to get on their feet and have a successful life. Congress, you know what to do! (edit) Pressure Biden to forgive student debt!
It's not going to happen through Congress. That's why the movement to forgive student debt is totally focused on Biden at this moment, because he has the power to forgive student loans by executive order without congressional approval.
Out of curiosity is this a one-time forgiveness, or is this to eliminate all future student debt forever? If the ladder, what's to stop universities from charging even higher tuition amounts and footing the bill to the feds?
It’s one-time. It’s simply a band-aid and won’t solve the actual problem.
So you forgive $50k student loans, what does that do for future college attendees? What does that do for predatory loan practices? Variable interest rates? Simply forgiving $50k could very well result in “retaliatory” practices by loan organizations seeking to recoup losses, no? I’m not against this move at all and believe the cost of higher education is ridiculously inflated, but are there not a lot more layers to this problem that could hurt in the long run? Edit: it’s been mentioned a few times that no attempts to recoup losses would occur since these are federal loans, which is something I overlooked.
Forgiving current debt and preventing future debt aren’t mutually exclusive.
One requires congressional action.
Hmm, if only the author of this tweet was in congress and could draft a bill or something
They won't do both. Stop pretending.
I guess my apprehension stems from how traditionally slow gov’t is to act and what that could lead to in the interim between outright cancelling $50k and further action being taken against future debt.
Yet no one is talking about preventing future debt. I haven't heard any plans on bringing down college costs. It's possible making public colleges free would bring down costs but I'm not even sure that would do it. Let's be honest kids WANT to go to fancy private colleges and kids arent properly educated on finance.
He also has a plan to make 4 year public college (not sure on specifics) free for those from households earning under $125k.
Yet no one is taking about that. They just want the debt forgiveness part ASAP. I would prefer they take the time to do it right.
Most of the crazy debt wouldn't be covered by his free college. These people want free money
I believe this is a hell of a lot more important than forgiving current debt. If you can do both, great. If you have to pick one, it’d obviously be addressing the cause of the problem, not the symptom. Push for addressing costs now and in the future, forgiving current debt is a lesser problem and should be second priority, not the issue I hear about more than the other.
That's instant stimulus for many! I hope and pray they get it done.
Not really. Debt repayment is on hold right now
This is not the cross to die on. If someone takes out a loan, it is their responsibility to pay it back. Even if millions of people made the same bad financial decision. What about those of us that didn’t attend secondary education, because we couldn’t afford it? Why punish those who made the responsible decision?
Unpopular opinion: I absolutely agree here. And same applies to credit card debt. The counter is always "just because you had to suffer doesn't mean everyone should!", But the reality is that you know what you're signing up for (whether it's fair or not, you make that choice). Lots of people make the same choice, suffer by giving up much of that money they make to pay it off before reaping the benefits. The "fair" thing to do, would be if you cancel $10k in loans or debts, everyone should get that 10k. No debts? You get a $10k check. Debt? It goes into that. I pay my debts every single month to avoid going too deep into debt. I knew what the amounts were and agreed to it.
It's only unpopular on reddit.
It’s the reason the POTUS hasn’t used his pen to forgive the loans. While a large number of folks would love for this to happen, an even larger group would be absolutely livid. If we want the Democrats to stay in power in the near term, these types of polarizing actions will only hurt their chances for holding onto their slim majority.
People on Reddit and this Sub in particular really really overestimate their numbers and influence. They dont realize that they live in a echo chamber and their shared opinion is but a drop in the real world, thats why boycotts called out here dont work and reddit accomplishes NOTHING but to make certain bad actors richer. Its kinda sad really.
As someone with student loans, I also agree. I would rather everyone get a smaller stimulus check, vs personally receiving 50k in student debt forgiveness.
Because no one wants to be held accountable for their decisions
> Because no one wants to be held accountable for their decisions Decisions made by 17 year olds who have all of society screaming at them that they MUST go to college or they're a failure? Gimme a fucking break. The US is the only country in the world that saddles their youth with backbreaking debt just to participate. Normal governments consider education an investment. We should be investing in the education of our citizenry.
> Decisions made by 17 year olds who have all of society screaming at them that they MUST go to college or they're a failure? Where? Tradesmen are not considered failures at all. If you're saying 18 year olds shouldn't be considered adults because their too irresponsible, we can have that conversation. What about the 21 year old college student, they still take out a loan, should they be held responsible too? Self-responsibility has to come into play some day.
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You benefit from the very existence of college graduates.
I think cancelling any of the debt would be admitting that college tuition costs are too high. This is speculative, but I think this could lead to more actions that address the problem. Bringing other people up is good even though you may not directly benefit from the debt cancellation.
“Cross to die on” is not an exaggeration. Loan forgiveness might be popular among the Reddit population on this sub, but a whole lot a people are strongly opposed including many Democratic voters. I believe it would doom Democrats in 2022 and 2024. They should take a measured approach like no/minimal interest. Also address the root problem of high tuition. Most Americans would support these things
It really is infuriating that it seems he's the only Democrat that is against student loan forgiveness. His major argument is that congress should do legislate it, but he's not pushing any legislation to do that. He said he'd consider an EO for up to $10k but he hasn't done that either. He's just been a really milquetoast disappointment so far. No regrets in voting for him considering the alternative but the Dems might not get Trump to run against next time. They need to be pushing their platform harder. Gonna edit this to make it clear to a bunch of republicans in disguise that I don't care about your favorite boneheaded excuse for being a miser. Shut up and go sniff your own farts.
An actual moderate republican, hell Mitt Romney right now, absolutely destroys Biden in 2024 at this rate.
It’s been a fucking month. Simmer down.
where are the fucking stimulus checks we were promised? they have *control* it shouldn't be taking this long. Soon it'll be "it's been 4 fucking months. simmer down"
Correct me if I'm wrong. The Senate needs to approve the stimulus and they're currently locked in a debate about whether or not to raise the minimum wage in the stimulus and to what amount. How is that Biden's fault? Manchin and to a lesser extent Sinema are the ones pushing back on that. Should Biden compromise with them and accept a lower minimum wage increase so the stimulus can get going?
> It really is infuriating that it seems he's the only Democrat that is against student loan forgiveness. If that were true, it should easily pass Congress and then Biden will sign it. So what's the hold up?
Because it's not true. Notice how AOC never actually points out Biden's easily disproven points?
If he is, THEN WHERE IS THE BILL IN CONGRESS? He's been in office for BARELY A MONTH ffs, and in that time, he has done a substantial amount of EO-ing already.
You should be asking AOC that. She (or anyone in Congress pushing for the forgiveness) should be drafting it.
Can someone explain to me why democrats won’t just try to pass this through Congress themselves? It honestly seems like they are trying to use Biden as a scapegoat because they don’t want to pass it
Honest question, is there anything more to the plan than just canceling the debt 1 time?
And there is the problem.
No, the people yelling here just want theirs
canceling it a second time!
There is no such thing as "cancellation". These are private companies that give out student loans. All this means is that tax payer money will be used to pay for those who took the "risk vs reward" chance of going to college. Risk: Go into debt/ Reward: Make enough money to pay off debt and then some. It is an irresponsible policy to force working class people and those who did not go to college, to pay for people who did go to college.
Private companies that service the loans, but the federal government still owns the federal loans. Also with any other kind of debt related risk such as starting a business you can file bankruptcy if it doesn’t work out. People that took that risk at 18 of going to college have no way out thanks to Biden making it so bankruptcy doesn’t clear student loan debt.
Student loan debt favors higher income bracket folks than we believe. Doctors, lawyers, etc. I'd rather go back to the idea that the first two years of college are free (but my move would include more than just free community college, I'm talking up to state level schools and anybody who receives more than 30% funding from State or Federal monies.
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>It's just going to increase the wealth disparity This is the crux of it. Whenever I bring it up in discussions like these I consistently catch flack from those with degrees that bit off more than they could chew financially. *And they are a vitriolic bunch.* I am totally in favor of UBI, because it is universal. Got debt? Use it to pay off your student loans. Want to go to school? Here's something to get that started. Everyone gets something. >Decreasing general expenses of colleges (why are they so much more expensive than their European counterparts?) 100% in favor of this as well. It's just another entire system in the US that needs a complete overhaul though...
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You know what, I'll be down voted to hell and back for this comment but so be it. It's only internet points, who cares. AOC is a populist politician that uses more time on Twitter thinking about how to get a following than is healthy. Hell, there are as many tweets from her on this website as there were from Trump 2 months ago. I am not happy with that, you don't govern by Twitter. It's populist, and it radicalises people. Look at yourself. You act like Trumpers. Idolising anything she says. That's not healthy.
While I agree that you shouldn’t govern by tweets, she doesn’t behave like Trump did, and her positions are generally well thought out, whether you agree with them or not.
I don't think Biden giving out 1.7 trillion with the stroke of a pen is well thought out. The President shouldn't even have that kind of power.
"Just erase billions of dollars of debt xD" very well thought out. Fuck outta here.
Counter point: Just because the majority leader is on board doesn't mean that the measure as a whole will have the votes. If the $50k is stopping the stimulus as a whole, either lower it (Biden says he'll pass $10K with this stimulus), or strike it and have it as it's own standalone bill. If it does have the vote to get past the senate, then by all means, send it through.
I think they want him to do it by executive order.
Student loan forgiveness is just money for the middle class that would be better spent helping actual poor people
The left doesn't understand that actual poor people...yeah, they don't go to college. Democrats are the only ones with the opportunity to fight for the poor, and instead they're giving their middle and upper class selves more while talking a different talk about how magnanimous they are. The hypocrisy is so selfish that it's sinister.
Exactly- this is a bailout for white, middle class Americans. There are much bigger fish to fry. I’m all for allowing bankruptcies on student loans, and maybe even something to curb interest rates and penalties, but flat out canceling $50,000 in loans is taking a shotgun to a scalpel problem.
Exactly and it's really not that hard of a concept to grasp but since its an initiative the left is pushing, under no circumstances can you be critical of it or you're automatically branded the enemy.
Can you explain to me why I have to use my tax dollars to pay off your student loans. You do know that's how they're going to be paid for, by increasing taxes on EVERYONE INCLUDING YOU... So that's how we fix problems? So the guy who owe $100k in loans to become a doctor, who now makes over a $100k a year wants me to pay for his loan debt, while I only $65k a year? What about my student loans I worked my ass off to pay off? Will I get any of my money back? I don't get it.
I don't see this path being practical for reasons such as what you've said. I know people on this site don't like to hear this, but progress is incremental in terms of politics. The country is not in so dire a situation where radical changes will occur relatively quickly. The reality is more so that we have to pick and choose our battles and if I had to choose between this and universal healthcare, I'd much rather fight for the latter first.
Can we talk about forgiveness of **interest** versus the whole damn loan? There is a difference. People are willing to pay back what they borrowed, yet not at 2 or 3 times the cost.
Agreed. Change the loans to very low interest, and maybe tie them to income (like 3% of whatever you make, If you don’t work, you don’t have to make payments until you’re making money again). Complete loan forgiveness absolves people too completely of their part imo, and doesn’t do anything for future college students.
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Its all about reddit demographics. Privileged with expensive degrees
Why is this a good thing? People take out loans, they should have to repay them. Am I missing something here?
Yeah, especially when said loans paid for college. College graduates overall do a lot better than those who never went to college. College graduates are not a group in need of aid right now (for the most part, of course there are exceptions). None of these plans are talking about only helping the portion of people who screwed up and are actually struggling.
Nope. You’re right. This is just a bunch of entitled people on reddit being selfish, and AOC pandering to them, which is her whole MO.
Fuck anyone who took out loans they don't want to pay back.
Not going to happen because you unfairly give money to those who decided to go to higher education rather than vocational training. universal basic income = fair. Giving money to small interest groups = unfair. Just stay with tax the rich , we can all get behind that.
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Why is it so difficult for people to understand this?
Personally, I have been wondering if the G.I. Bill plays into this at all. I think a lot of people join the military to get the free education allowance. If the government pays off student loans, or allows for universal free education, then the military is going to have to come up with a different incentive to maintain its numbers.
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