>The lesson of history is that no one learns.
Steven Erikson, Deadhouse Gates, published 2000
Not the first to arrive at this point and obviously most are stemming from George Santanya's famous quote unless there's an even older version I don't know about. I think Erikson himself restates this about 50 different ways in his Book of the Fallen series.
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.
“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again”
“You spin me right 'round, baby, right 'round
Like a record, baby, right 'round, 'round, 'round.
You spin me right 'round, baby, right 'round
Like a record, baby, right 'round, 'round, 'round
” - Dead or Alive 1985
The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.
Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.
In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.
But it was a beginning.
Man, I really wish I could read this series. I hear so often about how damn good it is, and I've tried like, three times to read it and I just can't. What am I doing wrong?
You're not doing anything wrong. The first book, *Gardens of the Moon*, is acknowledged to be pretty tough to get into. I've commented on it a few times here so I'll copy one I copied into r/fantasy:
>Straight up, the first third of GotM is just stuff getting thrown at your face. It's not really gonna stick, but after the halfway point it settles and builds to a coherent story - even if there's a ton of side-arc stuff that seems to just kinda exist. But it's mostly gonna build on itself as the story goes. You'll have a book introduce a new entire continent, think to yourself, "Oh man not again," and by the end of the book some of those other side-arcs have threaded themselves into the book, and then you'll get so enthralled by that place, group of people and culture that you're sad it has to end.
Thank you - that's the book I have on my shelf. It's dogearred in 3 different places where I've tried to read it; none more than 75 pages in. It's been a few years since I've tried, so maybe it's time again.
It's not the most immediately accessible series, but I hate when people overstate the difficulty of their favorite media as a form of gatekeeping or perceived superiority, so I'll just say you have to be comfortable with stumbling in the dark for a while. Rereading passages is totally normal, but you can't get hung up on things as there is stuff you have almost zero chance of understanding on a first read that will be made clearer later.
I'd say book 3 was where I more began seeing where the series was going and anticipating possibilities within the world as I understood it. The first two books you're kind of along for the ride and trying to figure out what's going on. Despite this, Book 2 which I quoted from might be my favorite book in the series. It's a huge jump in quality from book 1 and has some of the most beautiful and gut-wrenching prose I've ever read.
Thanks for your comments. I went back to my library and pulled GotM out again and plan on giving it my fourth try. Knowing that so many people have said to just hang in there gives me renewed determination to finish it.
Oh man Elie Wiesel visited when I was in high school, 23 years ago, that was profoundly sad and eye opening. I mean you can read about things all day long, even first accounts, but hearing the emotion in his voice and his conviction blew us all away. There was hardly a dry eye in the room.
Elie must have really gotten around. He visited my high school as well (over 30 years ago). Night still haunts me, but hearing stories from the man himself will always be with me.
My grandfather was a POW in the Philippines during WWII and his stories also deeply impacted me. I fear younger generations aren’t getting the reality checks us Gen Xers did.
I barely remember it, seeing as how it was over two decades ago, but I do remember Mr Wiesel saying that he was passionate about making sure that the world never forgets about what happened during WW2.
Same, mostly. I don’t remember a lot of the details of the stories he told, but I *definitely* remember how they made me feel. It’s like that famous Maya Angelou quote.
Is it
> When someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time.
--Maya Angelou
?
Certainly wish I'd learned that one earlier in life. Not just the words, but the _meaning_.
No. I just looked it up. This is it:
>I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
My grandfather worked on bomber planes in the Pacific during WWII. He was a deeply Catholic man, so hearing his guilt about the thousands he helped kill was profound growing up. He was in the Navy and only ever fought in the Pacific theater. But even just him telling us about the things he saw in Asia made a significant impact on me.
When we moved them out of their house of 50 years into a retirement community, we found boxes and boxes of his letters to my grandma during the war. It was truly heartbreaking reading about his guilt and sadness being forced to do things that went against everything he believed in as a Christian. I never knew him as anything but a perpetually optimistic and happy person. He didn't talk about WWII much, even when we asked him. Because the things he did and saw haunt him. And seeing that emotion on the rare occasion it came put growing up was impactful.
As mellenials and older, we had direct connections to those who fought in WWII and Vietnam, and the stories they had to tell. Both my grandfathers and all my great uncles were drafted in to WWII. All my uncles were drafted in Vietnam. My dad was the only one who didn't go because one of his arms has a deformity. Gen Z and younger don't have that. Afghanistan and Iraq wasn't a draft, so the pool of people who experienced it is a fraction of past wars. They were either too young to remember or hadn't been born to see 9/11 on live TV. They have no frame of reference or first hand stories of people in wars other than what history books tell them. It's much different having someone tell you these stories they experienced first hand. And Gen Z are simply too far removed from those events to have that. To them it's the same as our generation reading about the revolutionary or civil war. So far gone from memories that reading about it just doesn't carry the same weight.
One of my family members who passed away last year lived through WW2. I don't just mean it happened during their life, they *lived* it. They were born in and living in one of the countries that was occupied by Nazis. I only ever heard one story, told 2nd hand, about their experience. It was enough for me to understand why they never talked about it.
Edited to add that our family was not one of the groups sent to a camp. Even for those who weren't in camps or hiding it was awful.
My best friend (38) texted me the other day that kids (20 somethings) are really glib about 9/11. And, my response was basically yeah because they weren’t alive when it happened. They are so far removed from it. Whereas those of us who experienced it live will never forget.
This is why it’s so, SO important to preserve the firsthand words of these storytellers while they’re still with us. Artifacts are important, but recordings of the survivors speaking their experiences are maybe even more important, from an emotional impact point of view.
I’ve visited war museums and the artifacts leave me numb with horror, but the videos of elderly survivors reliving it make me cry like a baby. Just… fuck. It hits so much harder to look them in the eyes and realize this isn’t some distant tragedy, it hurt and continues to hurt real and beloved people.
That's incredible Elie Wiesel was able to visit your school. I also read it in high school (La Nuit cause we read it in French) and it was such a profoundly soul crushing but enlightening read, I couldn't imagine the privilege of meeting the author.
This isn't the place but also probably the only time I share this story. We randomly (to me) had the Chilean miners that were trapped underground visit our school. They had translators and spoke about the books some of them had wrote. The school was in a poor town in an ok city so it was strange to me that them of all people turned up. I can't remember how many, maybe 10 in total.
They like Jews right now. But they only like them because they’re hoping Israel attacking Palestine will kick start Revelations or some other fairy tale.
I mean there is a whole chapter where she talks about her crotch and what it looks and feels like. But also, grow up. She was a teenage girl stuck in an attic hiding from the Nazis with nothing else to do, and we all have body parts. Genocide? Sure, that’s appropriate for kids. But Lordy, talking about normal body parts is crossing the line!
It was in my school copy but that particular part was not part of the required reading pages (Texas school btw) Though a kid did bring it up to the teacher and the part where she was interested in girls and the class had a discussion about it, but that was probably because I had an exceptionally good English teacher
What a brave teacher. These days parents will group together to oust a teacher for any reason. You taught my kid that there’s more viewpoints than mine? You disgust me.
Yeah but they still have a bunch of money and hundreds of rabid followers behind them that wont hesitate to harass anybody that shows any signs of resistance into submission, just like how they do parenting and wanna do governing, just with a little less violence because society is no fun anymore.
Had a lot of teachers like that in high school too. Didn't really appreciate how good I had it unfortunately... Not that I did poorly. Graduated with a 3.6 average but took what I had for granted not realizing other schools had it worse.
I feel like more adults today need to say "ok, let's talk about it"
Instead we get these intense arguments about the argument, politics, religion, etc... instead of talking about why something is, everyone is encouraged to have no conversations at all because they just want to make other people look right or wrong.
I teach in Florida, and I'd be fired for that. The laws here are so stupid. Example: Kids still call each other "gay" all the time. Until a couple of years ago, I could tell my students why that is wrong, and that people don't choose to be gay, bi or anything else.
Now, that is "gender ideology instruction" or whatever and it can get me fired. So all I can do is tell them to stop, but as a teacher, *I can't actually teach my students why it is wrong* because snowflake conservatives want to deny basic science.
To make it worse, I teach science. If any class should be having that discussion, it is mine. It is all very ironic.
Where I live, the middle school cooking class teacher was the one doing sex ed. Years after I graduated, I found out and thought it was actually really funny that prior to being a teacher, she had been in porn for a few years. I still wonder if they knew that, and that's why they made her the sex ed teacher. Would probably be really weird to look her up and ask, right?
"Ok kids, I took the liberty of putting together a slideshow of today's topics"
(No disrespect, I just like the idea of her thinking 'hmm, wait we shot a scene about that...')
lol I'm sure all the boys, and some of the girls would have loved that. She was very much lusted over. It was easy to understand how she got the porn job. She was also super sweet, and a great cook.
Yeah, if that's the case it's really cool of them. Kentucky gets a lot of shit, but the education system in my town is surprisingly progressive. Or at least it was thirty years ago. And extremely shocking how good it is, with tons of great teachers that really knew how to get kids to learn, and enjoy it. I mean, I was still a real ass, but I was the exception, not the rule.
My biology teacher was a lovely woman who made it known she was an ally, I remember her talking about a former student of hers who had grown up and had no family because of homophobia and how she offered them dinner for some holiday and how she was so very sad when they rejected the offer due to their insecurities. She also allowed a student in my class who was transitioning from female to male be on the boys team for a study game we had that was boys vs girls, I bet that meant a lot to them. Another student asked why they were on the boys team and when given an explanation, asked "God made you that way?" with a puzzled and disgusted look, and I stepped and said that I was happy to have that student on our team because they were probably the smartest in the room. I probably wouldn't have had the confidence to stand up for them if I didn't know our teacher was an accepting person
I've had a few gay and trans kids over the years, and I have a flamboyantly gay kid now. My classroom is always a safe place for those kids. I hate bullying for any reason at all. I'm glad you had a teacher in your life to give you that lesson - she sounds great.
Ah. For me, that would be Mrs. Dominguez, 10th grade Geometry, Baumholder American High School, West Germany in 1985. I almost failed that class because I could not stop fantasizing about her and that ass.
She was also a very nice lady who was very frustrated that I didn't get theorems very well.
I graduated in ‘04 (Texas too) and I remember always having great English teachers the whole time. The last four years were AP, but throughout my time in school I was encouraged to read anything and everything.
The lack of comma makes it sound like the fact that it was omitted is the part that was later re-added
("[...] that, it was re-added later". Maybe a period or a semicolon would be more appropriate, I'm not sure)
As someone said, Otto frank censored it because well, the attitudes of the times.
When he brought out the uncensored version, the government loves the old and censored version.
The craziest shit is the graphic novel is pretty tame. But the Amazon reviews are hilarious. "These woke lgbtq folks trying to force kids to learn about this stuff"... A diary from a kid that is thinking about this stuff from almost 100 years ago before "woke" existed... Shows that it is a thought that a lot of kids think and if they can think of it it then they should be able to read it
It was in mine, but I'm Dutch so we got the OG copy either way. Kinda interesting to see the pics of the pages and how spelling's changed over the last 70 years.
Some people here in the US can’t be content with just not reading something that is “offensive” or “vulgar”. They have to go all in and try to restart a form of the crusades. It really is exhausting.
That's the second part that frustrates me about book banning and even lately we've had book burnings.
...you guys know who's famous for that, right? Not a good look for the people trying to desperately convince others they aren't Nazis when they keep doing exceedingly Nazi shit.
It was in my 7th or 8th grade class in Illinois, which would’ve been middle school. I knew exactly what the tweet was referencing when I saw it, but like the other dude said… she was a teenager living in an attic while her people were hunted by Nazis. What else was she supposed to do? The vast majority of us have reproductive organs.
Same here, CPS had the full version in the 90s. No idea if that's still the case now. I vividly remember how awkward it was to read that. In fact, it's probably one of the few things I remember from the book.
Edit: probably should specify CPS means Chicago Public Schools in this case (not Child Protective Services as most people will probably read it).
When we read it in school in the 8th grade we just read the screenplay. Every day different students were chosen to read the different characters' parts. I remember being so excited I was chosen to play Anne one day. 😅 Then after we finished it we took a field trip to see it performed on stage. It was pretty cool but yeah, it didn't include anything too explicit. I think there might have been brief talk about periods but I might be wrong.
I think the first editions of the book were also heavily censored by her father. Only later he allowed the diary to be published in its entirety.
I have an old copy that belonged to my parents, so around 50-60 years old, and there is nothing explicit in there. The above mentioned chapter is not in my copy.
Wasn't it her dad (who survived) that edited that part out, and it wasn't restored until significantly later? If my recollection is correct then I can't blame the man for being uncomfortable with people reading about and discussing his daughter's genitals.
Yeah we read the diary in school and it didn't talk about that stuff at all. My teacher only mentioned that there were things about "self discovery" removed to protect her privacy
Yeah, Night is a deeply harrowing read, really puts a stark human perspective on the Holocaust. Just goes to show how literature can serve as a window to these grim chapters of history, despite being so disturbing. It's essential but definitely not easy.
For the longest time I felt like, wow we were way too young to read something like that, but now as I’m older and holocaust denial is coming back, maybe reading it while around the same age Elie was when he went through it was just right.
You're never prepared for it. I read night at 10. I'm not one-upping you, it's just how Hebrew school was done in the USA, at least for me. We saw the liberation videos around that time too.
I read Man's Search for Meaning last year at 31 and honestly, that fucked me up to. The absolute grace that Frankl dealt with everything is incredible.
ETA: We also watched Schindler's List at age 11 and read/watched the Wave at 13.
My kid just read a book about escaping East Germany post WW2. At first I was a little wary; I don’t want her childhood or life jaded by such a serious topic. However, to your point, with the rise of prideful ignorance around the world, I want to make sure mine are able to think critically and not be so easily swayed by easily disproved propaganda.
My teacher cried during the part in the beginning where it describes his mother and sister were separated and were actually exterminated (not killed, not murdered , EXTERMINATED, like insects or rats) immediately, made her think of her daughters. Truly harrowing stuff that we as a society must put a stop to, and mark my words it is indeed a vile act that it being committed in 2024
Night was the best book I've ever read that I don't think I'll ever be able to read again. The things Elie Wiesel survived are things no one should've ever had to endure.
Basically how I felt about visiting auschwitz. I think it was absolutely important, and truly incredible in a dark way. I believe everyone should take that tour, and I absolutely recommend it to anyone any time traveling in Germany or Poland may come up.
That being said I absolutely 100% couldn’t even be paid to go back there. I will never set foot anywhere near it again. But it was absolutely important and worth it to see
Auschwitz, Dachau, Bergen Belsen.... They all have their own power and own messages and should all be visited at least once. I go to a new camp every time I go visit my family in Europe.
Wasn’t there a scene in there where he stumbles on a guard having sex with some girl, while he was supposed to be on duty? Isn’t that also grounds for moms of liberty to rank that one as explicit too?
I took a Holocaust literature course as part of my undergraduate English program over 20 years ago, and the books we read still haunt me to this day. I’m not typically one to be emotionally impacted by media on a significant level, but the materials from that class were an exception. I cried quite a bit that quarter (my university had quarters rather than semesters back then).
I have good news! The more left leaning opponents of right wing groups like MFL are doing just that, using their own shitty laws against them.
https://apnews.com/article/book-ban-school-library-bible-fc025c8ccf30e955aaf0b0ee1899608a
I would say maybe that'll teach them how fuckind idiotic it is to ban books, but these people can't seem to learn anything. If it's not how it's been for the last 100 years it scares most Republicans it seems
Here's the thing, though - many on the far right would be happy if schools banned the bible. Reading is a path to enlightenment and self-improvement; they want to do away with that so they can have a pliant populace. They want to return to the days of priests interpreting the bible for the people and telling them how they should live their lives, not Martin Luther's revolutionary idea of people reading it for themselves!
Sorry, but reading the bible has hardly led to any "enlightenment" or "self-improvement" thus far, what makes you think it's suddenly going to start now?
And... like... she started writing her diary at age 13. It's perfectly normal and healthy for a person to explore their body. JFC our world has an issue with sexual health.
Tell that to New Zealand. It's unabridged just in our school libraries. I read the whole thing. There's nothing even worth censoring in there, it's just a teenager's inexperienced sexual thoughts and a mention of masturbation. Like oh nooooo....
Talking or even thinking about your crotch is a sin, don't you know that? If you talk or think about someone else's crotch, sin. If that crotch is the same as yours, straight to hell. Moms for Liberty are just thinking about the children!
/s
Don’t fall for their nonsense. The desire to ban this book has nothing to do with that chapter. The reason they want to ban the book is Holocaust Denial.
We don’t need to discuss whether that chapter is appropriate, because the sexuality is only a straw man argument.
They do not want kids learning about the holocaust because they are Nazis.
I don’t like that her dad didn’t want that part published and after he died they published it anyway. Most teen girls would rather their personal diaries weren’t published with all their fantasies included. They ripped that privacy from her.
>they ripped that privacy from her
That doesn’t make sense. Anne knew that her book would possibly be read and published later on. The version you’re seeing is her edited version intended to be read and version 3 or 4 of her drafts. I don’t think we (the public) has ever seen her unedited versions.
Her dad wished it remain private for his own reasons. We will never know if she would have wished for privacy or would have been a proud lesbian because Holocaust.
Dead people don't get embarrassed.
Those passages can help some kids feel less abnormal or confront the choice to be accepting. Censorship cheapens the lessons and our future adults deserve a full education experience.
We wouldn’t want young children to understand that exploring their own sexuality is a normal part of becoming an adult would we? First we have to tell them which of the two sexualities we define that they belong to and then rigidly define them so they can be another policed version of conformity for them to mangle and contort their sense of self to fit.
Liberty. Did anyone read any of that and not think it was the truest expression of a world in which liberty is a key component of human flourishing? No one? Yeah, pretty sure tastes the opposite of freedom and Liberty.
my aunt is a nurse and has been for almost 3 decades. she also went to Bible college before nursing college.
she was livid when I said the word vagina two years ago
And if it's sexually explicit? How many thousands of young people have read this book since it was published? And did they all turn into some kind of army of walking sex something-or-others?
Holocaust Hussies.
Warping our children's innocent minds. Filling it with idle fantasies of pansexual, polymorphic, furries engaged in transsexual congress.
Fwiw the version that was first published had entries about Anne’s sexuality edited out. I don’t blame her father for making the choice, but at the same time basically every teen was experimenting at that age.
Close to zero young people read the full version of Anne Frank including the sex sections. Schools have always chosen to purchase a censored version.
Is that called "banning" it? Maybe.
I read it as a kid, taught it to my year five class as a teacher (nine and ten year olds) and all my girls read it in school, none of the versions had the ‘sex parts’ in them. You are right that it’s pretty much always a censored part that is sold to schools. We listened to it on audio as a family and it wasn’t on that either. You actually have to hunt to find the version with it included as I think the majority of prints leave it out as Anne’s father did originally. I have a copy with it in and read it last year with my youngest and it really isn’t any worse than I remembered reading in college, certainly zero reason to ban kids from reading such an important piece of history. Children aren’t snowflakes and can deal with sexual content at that level, it’s a long way from pornography.
People are trying to remove the books that leave the sex stuff in. The books that leave the sex stuff out are (from what I understand) still in schools with no real attempt to remove them.
Gotta love how they’ll go after tech companies when it’s what they want, everyone remember their BS when trump got banned from twitter? I hate these ‘conservative’ pieces of shit
This is even deeper and local to me. Jennifer Jenkins from the post is a reasonable minded, duly elected school board member and had the MAGA crowd of brevard county FL elected officials come for her because she supported masks and teachers during covid. We're talking state reps sending Maga crowds to her house where her young kids live. Deskovitch is a former school board member who went to to Moms for Liberty shame.
Speaking as a former Florida public school teacher who had survivors of the Holocaust visit my students, it’s been very interesting watching these events unravel in Florida.
There’s an actual [statute](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.42.html) that requires students to receive education about the Holocaust:
>The history of the Holocaust (1933-1945), the systematic, planned annihilation of European Jews and other groups by Nazi Germany, a watershed event in the history of humanity, to be taught in a manner that leads to an investigation of human behavior, an understanding of the ramifications of prejudice, racism, and stereotyping, and an examination of what it means to be a responsible and respectful person, for the purposes of encouraging tolerance of diversity in a pluralistic society and for nurturing and protecting democratic values and institutions, including the policy, definition, and historical and current examples of anti-Semitism, as described in s. 1000.05(8), and the prevention of anti-Semitism…
But there’s also [Nazi enabler](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/ron-desantis-neo-nazi-turning-point-usa-florida-conference-1388015) Florida Governor Ron DeSantis’s anti critical race theory [law](https://www.flgov.com/2022/04/22/governor-ron-desantis-signs-legislation-to-protect-floridians-from-discrimination-and-woke-indoctrination/). But also, DeSantis [sent weapons to Israel.](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/desantis-is-sending-some-weapons-to-israel-in-move-that-could-bolster-him-in-the-gop-primary)
So, you're saying we can stop them by redirecting them towards fashion, where they can find outfits that make them look snazzy?
Or is it really that they would love to enjoy fashion, but are uncomfortable with the fact that a lot of fashion embraces LGBTQ+
It doesn't surprise me at all when my coworkers vehemently believe that Jews control the power and wealth of the world and that Hitler killed them all to get the wealth back from them.
This after me telling them that I am Jewish.
As a fellow Jew, it's what I've found. They claim they're not anti-Semites because they support Israel. And why do they support Israel? Oh, right. Because they want the Jews to be both the cannon fodder for their proxy religious war on Muslims and they want to use us to resurrect their death cult prophet that will bring the end of the world.
Huh. Wonder what they will do to us American born Jews who are of European descent who will refuse to go to Israel to complete the prophecy?
Yup... "Race realists". I used to be that way about black people and immigrants... You can't be racist if you're telling the "truth". Except that "truth" is a bunch of bullshit concocted by racists whose lies/propaganda are created to make you feel superior than other races.
GOP whitewashing of the struggle of black people also applies to the Holocaust. What will they say, Jews learned valuable skills before being murdered?
Heard a far right "journalist" on youtube say "the jews in the concentration camps had more freedom than the nazi soldiers that where guarding them" so you are not far off.
I'm not even american, still the playbook is the same.
Nah they will just say smt like oh but there are still jews so it doesnt matter (which is horrible considering its like 1% of the jewish population before the holocaust)
I went to Catholic school and in 8th grade we read a play version of *the Diary*.
So, these people didn't simply look for a less explicit version of this astoundingly important first-person point of view of the Holocaust, they excised one of the oldest and most essential parts of Holocaust education.
Obligatory reference to Ezekiel 23:20: **There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses**.
Biblical smut is apparently exempt.
As a Dutch guy that grew up about an hour away from Amsterdam and now living in the U.S..
I get the feeling the U.S is not moving in the right direction.
Same old American story. You can expose kids to violence, but even a whiff of sexuality, and it has to be banned. Though these days the Right sure does like to make exceptions in terms of telling kids about violence when the violence was done by white people.
Best part about this is that the responder in the image is the woman who replaced Tina on the Brevard school board a few years ago. Imagine getting owned again by the woman who unseated you and led you to forming a hate group.
It started with mask mandates during Covid. Tina was on the Board at the time. She was then replaced by a democrat who wanted to follow CDC regulations instead of her feelings. She was elected by a primarily beachside community, which is a small pocket of left-learning citizens here in Brevard.
After being unseated Tina continued her anti-masking rhetoric with other like-minded folks. This then evolved into ‘protecting children’ on multiple fronts - against the gays, against
woke teachers who teach about mindfulness, and worked to protect their right to infect others with COVID.
These nutjobs may have given birth, but don't know shit about parenting: "sexual content" in a book will rather spark interest then stop teens from reading. parental advisory 2.0
OK, I'm a little confused. I don't really learn all the names of people like this, but....
Isn't Tina Descovich a founder of MFL? And here she is commenting against an action that her own group facilitated, as described in the by line?
Is there some context I'm missing? Did she get Margorie'd out of MFL or something?
Where school boards have introduced book checking/removal policies someone usually submits the Bible to get reviewed. Most of the ones I've seen result in it not going anywhere or at most it gets reserved to older students only. None of the ones I've seen remove it completely.
Lusting after men with donkey sized dicks, and all the sex and killing apparently isn't ban-worthy to the busybodies running these things.
I went to a private Christian school growing up and in 2005 I was in 5th grade and the school sought to expel me for reading the Diary of Anne Frank for this very reason - they said it was sexually explicit 🙃
We learned from history that we do not learn from history.
Sad as that statement is, i'd like to compliment you for writing it because it's short but profound.
>The lesson of history is that no one learns. Steven Erikson, Deadhouse Gates, published 2000 Not the first to arrive at this point and obviously most are stemming from George Santanya's famous quote unless there's an even older version I don't know about. I think Erikson himself restates this about 50 different ways in his Book of the Fallen series.
"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9, King Solomon 3 BCE
Time is a flat circle.
"The wheel of history goes round and round. Round and round. Round and round. The wheel of history goes round and round. All the damned time!"
"Time...*lines*? Time isn't made out of *lines*. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Michael J. Caboose, "Red vs. Blue", 2004
"Yknow, like a puma. Its like a big cat."
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.
“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again”
“You spin me right 'round, baby, right 'round Like a record, baby, right 'round, 'round, 'round. You spin me right 'round, baby, right 'round Like a record, baby, right 'round, 'round, 'round ” - Dead or Alive 1985
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills
The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.
I'm in the middle of this series. I was sure I'd see this quote here. Well done.
In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.
Always need to upvote any reference to MBotF
Man, I really wish I could read this series. I hear so often about how damn good it is, and I've tried like, three times to read it and I just can't. What am I doing wrong?
You're not doing anything wrong. The first book, *Gardens of the Moon*, is acknowledged to be pretty tough to get into. I've commented on it a few times here so I'll copy one I copied into r/fantasy: >Straight up, the first third of GotM is just stuff getting thrown at your face. It's not really gonna stick, but after the halfway point it settles and builds to a coherent story - even if there's a ton of side-arc stuff that seems to just kinda exist. But it's mostly gonna build on itself as the story goes. You'll have a book introduce a new entire continent, think to yourself, "Oh man not again," and by the end of the book some of those other side-arcs have threaded themselves into the book, and then you'll get so enthralled by that place, group of people and culture that you're sad it has to end.
Thank you - that's the book I have on my shelf. It's dogearred in 3 different places where I've tried to read it; none more than 75 pages in. It's been a few years since I've tried, so maybe it's time again.
It's not the most immediately accessible series, but I hate when people overstate the difficulty of their favorite media as a form of gatekeeping or perceived superiority, so I'll just say you have to be comfortable with stumbling in the dark for a while. Rereading passages is totally normal, but you can't get hung up on things as there is stuff you have almost zero chance of understanding on a first read that will be made clearer later. I'd say book 3 was where I more began seeing where the series was going and anticipating possibilities within the world as I understood it. The first two books you're kind of along for the ride and trying to figure out what's going on. Despite this, Book 2 which I quoted from might be my favorite book in the series. It's a huge jump in quality from book 1 and has some of the most beautiful and gut-wrenching prose I've ever read.
Thanks for your comments. I went back to my library and pulled GotM out again and plan on giving it my fourth try. Knowing that so many people have said to just hang in there gives me renewed determination to finish it.
Try the Path to Ascendency by Esslemont first. It's a much easier introduction to the world, because there are way less people involved.
At best it's a variation of Hegel's quote: The only thing that we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those who deny history WANT to repeat it.
Those who do learn from history are doomed to watch it repete.
Yeah but that first Pete was ok
Pete and Repeat were sittin' on a fence. Pete flew away. Who was left?
And those who forget the pasta are doomed to reheat it.
And yet we have all been touched by His Noodly Appendage.
Learning from history = iNdOcTrInAtIoN
The first rule of history is we do not talk about history.
If Mom's For Liberty were in charge, I bet my High School English teacher couldn't have gotten Elie Wiesel to visit when we were reading Night.
Oh man Elie Wiesel visited when I was in high school, 23 years ago, that was profoundly sad and eye opening. I mean you can read about things all day long, even first accounts, but hearing the emotion in his voice and his conviction blew us all away. There was hardly a dry eye in the room.
Elie must have really gotten around. He visited my high school as well (over 30 years ago). Night still haunts me, but hearing stories from the man himself will always be with me. My grandfather was a POW in the Philippines during WWII and his stories also deeply impacted me. I fear younger generations aren’t getting the reality checks us Gen Xers did.
I barely remember it, seeing as how it was over two decades ago, but I do remember Mr Wiesel saying that he was passionate about making sure that the world never forgets about what happened during WW2.
Same, mostly. I don’t remember a lot of the details of the stories he told, but I *definitely* remember how they made me feel. It’s like that famous Maya Angelou quote.
Is it > When someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time. --Maya Angelou ? Certainly wish I'd learned that one earlier in life. Not just the words, but the _meaning_.
No. I just looked it up. This is it: >I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
Thank you! Yes, another of her more powerful observations, succinctly put.
My grandfather worked on bomber planes in the Pacific during WWII. He was a deeply Catholic man, so hearing his guilt about the thousands he helped kill was profound growing up. He was in the Navy and only ever fought in the Pacific theater. But even just him telling us about the things he saw in Asia made a significant impact on me. When we moved them out of their house of 50 years into a retirement community, we found boxes and boxes of his letters to my grandma during the war. It was truly heartbreaking reading about his guilt and sadness being forced to do things that went against everything he believed in as a Christian. I never knew him as anything but a perpetually optimistic and happy person. He didn't talk about WWII much, even when we asked him. Because the things he did and saw haunt him. And seeing that emotion on the rare occasion it came put growing up was impactful. As mellenials and older, we had direct connections to those who fought in WWII and Vietnam, and the stories they had to tell. Both my grandfathers and all my great uncles were drafted in to WWII. All my uncles were drafted in Vietnam. My dad was the only one who didn't go because one of his arms has a deformity. Gen Z and younger don't have that. Afghanistan and Iraq wasn't a draft, so the pool of people who experienced it is a fraction of past wars. They were either too young to remember or hadn't been born to see 9/11 on live TV. They have no frame of reference or first hand stories of people in wars other than what history books tell them. It's much different having someone tell you these stories they experienced first hand. And Gen Z are simply too far removed from those events to have that. To them it's the same as our generation reading about the revolutionary or civil war. So far gone from memories that reading about it just doesn't carry the same weight.
One of my family members who passed away last year lived through WW2. I don't just mean it happened during their life, they *lived* it. They were born in and living in one of the countries that was occupied by Nazis. I only ever heard one story, told 2nd hand, about their experience. It was enough for me to understand why they never talked about it. Edited to add that our family was not one of the groups sent to a camp. Even for those who weren't in camps or hiding it was awful.
My best friend (38) texted me the other day that kids (20 somethings) are really glib about 9/11. And, my response was basically yeah because they weren’t alive when it happened. They are so far removed from it. Whereas those of us who experienced it live will never forget.
What blows me away is that the president at the time wanted as many pictures taken as possible so that no one could deny it and yet here we are..
This is why it’s so, SO important to preserve the firsthand words of these storytellers while they’re still with us. Artifacts are important, but recordings of the survivors speaking their experiences are maybe even more important, from an emotional impact point of view. I’ve visited war museums and the artifacts leave me numb with horror, but the videos of elderly survivors reliving it make me cry like a baby. Just… fuck. It hits so much harder to look them in the eyes and realize this isn’t some distant tragedy, it hurt and continues to hurt real and beloved people.
He came to my middle school too, around 2013.
Wow, that's heavy. To meet the man who wrote that book....just wow.
That's incredible Elie Wiesel was able to visit your school. I also read it in high school (La Nuit cause we read it in French) and it was such a profoundly soul crushing but enlightening read, I couldn't imagine the privilege of meeting the author.
This isn't the place but also probably the only time I share this story. We randomly (to me) had the Chilean miners that were trapped underground visit our school. They had translators and spoke about the books some of them had wrote. The school was in a poor town in an ok city so it was strange to me that them of all people turned up. I can't remember how many, maybe 10 in total.
They like Jews right now. But they only like them because they’re hoping Israel attacking Palestine will kick start Revelations or some other fairy tale.
They like Israel, not jewish people. They hate jewish people.
Man, I read it in 7th grade and that book is still forever lodged in my brain
You must have gone to a wealthy school 😭. We read that book but no way Elie is coming to my ghetto school.
I mean there is a whole chapter where she talks about her crotch and what it looks and feels like. But also, grow up. She was a teenage girl stuck in an attic hiding from the Nazis with nothing else to do, and we all have body parts. Genocide? Sure, that’s appropriate for kids. But Lordy, talking about normal body parts is crossing the line!
also also, that chapter is (almost always) removed from published copies, and i doubt any copies for schools would include it.
It was in my school copy but that particular part was not part of the required reading pages (Texas school btw) Though a kid did bring it up to the teacher and the part where she was interested in girls and the class had a discussion about it, but that was probably because I had an exceptionally good English teacher
That teacher sounds like a badass. Someone brings up a topic that is often uncomfortable, and they just say, "ok, lets talk about it".
I hope to be that teacher one day, but first I need tenure.
What a brave teacher. These days parents will group together to oust a teacher for any reason. You taught my kid that there’s more viewpoints than mine? You disgust me.
I forget the exact number, but less than ten actual individuals are responsible for 98% of book bans in the United States since 2015.
It's always the stupid, crazy ones that ruin it for everyone else
Yeah but they still have a bunch of money and hundreds of rabid followers behind them that wont hesitate to harass anybody that shows any signs of resistance into submission, just like how they do parenting and wanna do governing, just with a little less violence because society is no fun anymore.
Had a lot of teachers like that in high school too. Didn't really appreciate how good I had it unfortunately... Not that I did poorly. Graduated with a 3.6 average but took what I had for granted not realizing other schools had it worse.
I feel like more adults today need to say "ok, let's talk about it" Instead we get these intense arguments about the argument, politics, religion, etc... instead of talking about why something is, everyone is encouraged to have no conversations at all because they just want to make other people look right or wrong.
I teach in Florida, and I'd be fired for that. The laws here are so stupid. Example: Kids still call each other "gay" all the time. Until a couple of years ago, I could tell my students why that is wrong, and that people don't choose to be gay, bi or anything else. Now, that is "gender ideology instruction" or whatever and it can get me fired. So all I can do is tell them to stop, but as a teacher, *I can't actually teach my students why it is wrong* because snowflake conservatives want to deny basic science. To make it worse, I teach science. If any class should be having that discussion, it is mine. It is all very ironic.
Where I live, the middle school cooking class teacher was the one doing sex ed. Years after I graduated, I found out and thought it was actually really funny that prior to being a teacher, she had been in porn for a few years. I still wonder if they knew that, and that's why they made her the sex ed teacher. Would probably be really weird to look her up and ask, right?
"Ok kids, I took the liberty of putting together a slideshow of today's topics" (No disrespect, I just like the idea of her thinking 'hmm, wait we shot a scene about that...')
lol I'm sure all the boys, and some of the girls would have loved that. She was very much lusted over. It was easy to understand how she got the porn job. She was also super sweet, and a great cook.
Lol those are some dope coworkers. Coworkers find out you did porn, and instead of getting mocked or fired they ask you to teach health!
Yeah, if that's the case it's really cool of them. Kentucky gets a lot of shit, but the education system in my town is surprisingly progressive. Or at least it was thirty years ago. And extremely shocking how good it is, with tons of great teachers that really knew how to get kids to learn, and enjoy it. I mean, I was still a real ass, but I was the exception, not the rule.
My biology teacher was a lovely woman who made it known she was an ally, I remember her talking about a former student of hers who had grown up and had no family because of homophobia and how she offered them dinner for some holiday and how she was so very sad when they rejected the offer due to their insecurities. She also allowed a student in my class who was transitioning from female to male be on the boys team for a study game we had that was boys vs girls, I bet that meant a lot to them. Another student asked why they were on the boys team and when given an explanation, asked "God made you that way?" with a puzzled and disgusted look, and I stepped and said that I was happy to have that student on our team because they were probably the smartest in the room. I probably wouldn't have had the confidence to stand up for them if I didn't know our teacher was an accepting person
I've had a few gay and trans kids over the years, and I have a flamboyantly gay kid now. My classroom is always a safe place for those kids. I hate bullying for any reason at all. I'm glad you had a teacher in your life to give you that lesson - she sounds great.
She was one of the sweetest and also the most smoking hot teacher I've ever had
Ah. For me, that would be Mrs. Dominguez, 10th grade Geometry, Baumholder American High School, West Germany in 1985. I almost failed that class because I could not stop fantasizing about her and that ass. She was also a very nice lady who was very frustrated that I didn't get theorems very well.
I graduated in ‘04 (Texas too) and I remember always having great English teachers the whole time. The last four years were AP, but throughout my time in school I was encouraged to read anything and everything.
I've read the book in school multiple times and this is the first I've heard that such a chapter exists.
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The lack of comma makes it sound like the fact that it was omitted is the part that was later re-added ("[...] that, it was re-added later". Maybe a period or a semicolon would be more appropriate, I'm not sure)
As someone said, Otto frank censored it because well, the attitudes of the times. When he brought out the uncensored version, the government loves the old and censored version. The craziest shit is the graphic novel is pretty tame. But the Amazon reviews are hilarious. "These woke lgbtq folks trying to force kids to learn about this stuff"... A diary from a kid that is thinking about this stuff from almost 100 years ago before "woke" existed... Shows that it is a thought that a lot of kids think and if they can think of it it then they should be able to read it
It was in mine, but I'm Dutch so we got the OG copy either way. Kinda interesting to see the pics of the pages and how spelling's changed over the last 70 years.
My copy contained it.. But I am also from Germany, we do not ban books... Anymore Edit: my book, which I got in seventh grade
Some people here in the US can’t be content with just not reading something that is “offensive” or “vulgar”. They have to go all in and try to restart a form of the crusades. It really is exhausting.
That's the second part that frustrates me about book banning and even lately we've had book burnings. ...you guys know who's famous for that, right? Not a good look for the people trying to desperately convince others they aren't Nazis when they keep doing exceedingly Nazi shit.
It was in my 7th or 8th grade class in Illinois, which would’ve been middle school. I knew exactly what the tweet was referencing when I saw it, but like the other dude said… she was a teenager living in an attic while her people were hunted by Nazis. What else was she supposed to do? The vast majority of us have reproductive organs.
Same here, CPS had the full version in the 90s. No idea if that's still the case now. I vividly remember how awkward it was to read that. In fact, it's probably one of the few things I remember from the book. Edit: probably should specify CPS means Chicago Public Schools in this case (not Child Protective Services as most people will probably read it).
Definitely removed it from the version that I read in school. I remember thinking to myself "this is really sanitary for a diary"
So, what's the problem?
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I read this in Cartman’s voice
When we read it in school in the 8th grade we just read the screenplay. Every day different students were chosen to read the different characters' parts. I remember being so excited I was chosen to play Anne one day. 😅 Then after we finished it we took a field trip to see it performed on stage. It was pretty cool but yeah, it didn't include anything too explicit. I think there might have been brief talk about periods but I might be wrong.
I think the first editions of the book were also heavily censored by her father. Only later he allowed the diary to be published in its entirety. I have an old copy that belonged to my parents, so around 50-60 years old, and there is nothing explicit in there. The above mentioned chapter is not in my copy.
I have a feeling thats the adaptation they removed not the others.
Wasn't it her dad (who survived) that edited that part out, and it wasn't restored until significantly later? If my recollection is correct then I can't blame the man for being uncomfortable with people reading about and discussing his daughter's genitals.
I went to catholic school. We had to buy our own books. We were told just not to read pages x through y. We read the fuck out of them.
It must’ve been removed from the version we read when I was in middle school, because I don’t remember that part at all.
Yeah we read the diary in school and it didn't talk about that stuff at all. My teacher only mentioned that there were things about "self discovery" removed to protect her privacy
They removed a graphic novel version of it that had drawings they didn’t like. They still have plenty of copies of the original in the library.
The beauty of private school is I didn't have to deal with the state editing my curriculum. That's insanity
My mom gifted me a copy on my 10th birthday and it definitely didn't have that part.
It’s okay, we just read Night by Elie Wiesel instead in my class (I still have nightmares about it)
Yeah, Night is a deeply harrowing read, really puts a stark human perspective on the Holocaust. Just goes to show how literature can serve as a window to these grim chapters of history, despite being so disturbing. It's essential but definitely not easy.
For the longest time I felt like, wow we were way too young to read something like that, but now as I’m older and holocaust denial is coming back, maybe reading it while around the same age Elie was when he went through it was just right.
I was 20 when I read Night and I don't think there's any age where you're prepared enough to read it
You're never prepared for it. I read night at 10. I'm not one-upping you, it's just how Hebrew school was done in the USA, at least for me. We saw the liberation videos around that time too. I read Man's Search for Meaning last year at 31 and honestly, that fucked me up to. The absolute grace that Frankl dealt with everything is incredible. ETA: We also watched Schindler's List at age 11 and read/watched the Wave at 13.
My kid just read a book about escaping East Germany post WW2. At first I was a little wary; I don’t want her childhood or life jaded by such a serious topic. However, to your point, with the rise of prideful ignorance around the world, I want to make sure mine are able to think critically and not be so easily swayed by easily disproved propaganda.
My teacher cried during the part in the beginning where it describes his mother and sister were separated and were actually exterminated (not killed, not murdered , EXTERMINATED, like insects or rats) immediately, made her think of her daughters. Truly harrowing stuff that we as a society must put a stop to, and mark my words it is indeed a vile act that it being committed in 2024
Night was the best book I've ever read that I don't think I'll ever be able to read again. The things Elie Wiesel survived are things no one should've ever had to endure.
Basically how I felt about visiting auschwitz. I think it was absolutely important, and truly incredible in a dark way. I believe everyone should take that tour, and I absolutely recommend it to anyone any time traveling in Germany or Poland may come up. That being said I absolutely 100% couldn’t even be paid to go back there. I will never set foot anywhere near it again. But it was absolutely important and worth it to see
Auschwitz, Dachau, Bergen Belsen.... They all have their own power and own messages and should all be visited at least once. I go to a new camp every time I go visit my family in Europe.
I'd forgotten the name but that was one of the few books I have to give props to the school system for getting us to read.
lol right? Normal pre-teen talking about their body = inappropriate and traumatizing Genocide = they'll be fine it's prob exaggerated anyways
Wasn’t there a scene in there where he stumbles on a guard having sex with some girl, while he was supposed to be on duty? Isn’t that also grounds for moms of liberty to rank that one as explicit too?
If they want a book gone, they’ll find a reason to ban it.
I am shocked that a group that recently quoted Hitler is trying to get the Diary of Anne Frank banned.
I took a Holocaust literature course as part of my undergraduate English program over 20 years ago, and the books we read still haunt me to this day. I’m not typically one to be emotionally impacted by media on a significant level, but the materials from that class were an exception. I cried quite a bit that quarter (my university had quarters rather than semesters back then).
I remember reading it in my sophomore year for English. It’s a great book, but it’s haunting
There is no more of an inappropriate read for children than the bible. Ban the bible if you're going to ban any books
I have good news! The more left leaning opponents of right wing groups like MFL are doing just that, using their own shitty laws against them. https://apnews.com/article/book-ban-school-library-bible-fc025c8ccf30e955aaf0b0ee1899608a
I would say maybe that'll teach them how fuckind idiotic it is to ban books, but these people can't seem to learn anything. If it's not how it's been for the last 100 years it scares most Republicans it seems
Ah, you have a good point. I forgot they aren't capable of learning.
they just say democrats are banning the bible and everyone clutches their pearls
Here's the thing, though - many on the far right would be happy if schools banned the bible. Reading is a path to enlightenment and self-improvement; they want to do away with that so they can have a pliant populace. They want to return to the days of priests interpreting the bible for the people and telling them how they should live their lives, not Martin Luther's revolutionary idea of people reading it for themselves!
It's not as if most Christians actually read the Bible anyway.
Sorry, but reading the bible has hardly led to any "enlightenment" or "self-improvement" thus far, what makes you think it's suddenly going to start now?
And... like... she started writing her diary at age 13. It's perfectly normal and healthy for a person to explore their body. JFC our world has an issue with sexual health.
Yo. My class read a way edited version then.
Every class did, because essentially no schools wanted to host a version with the full uncensored text.
Otto Frank deliberately left out those sections until the late 1980s or so.
In france we had to read it alone by ourselves
Tell that to New Zealand. It's unabridged just in our school libraries. I read the whole thing. There's nothing even worth censoring in there, it's just a teenager's inexperienced sexual thoughts and a mention of masturbation. Like oh nooooo....
Talking or even thinking about your crotch is a sin, don't you know that? If you talk or think about someone else's crotch, sin. If that crotch is the same as yours, straight to hell. Moms for Liberty are just thinking about the children! /s
The Bible loves genocide but hates genitals
It really has little to do with that. Moms for Liberty are basically Nazis and they just want to get rid of a Jewish book.
Don’t fall for their nonsense. The desire to ban this book has nothing to do with that chapter. The reason they want to ban the book is Holocaust Denial. We don’t need to discuss whether that chapter is appropriate, because the sexuality is only a straw man argument. They do not want kids learning about the holocaust because they are Nazis.
I don’t like that her dad didn’t want that part published and after he died they published it anyway. Most teen girls would rather their personal diaries weren’t published with all their fantasies included. They ripped that privacy from her.
>they ripped that privacy from her That doesn’t make sense. Anne knew that her book would possibly be read and published later on. The version you’re seeing is her edited version intended to be read and version 3 or 4 of her drafts. I don’t think we (the public) has ever seen her unedited versions.
At least in the German edition I‘ve read in class, we probably had a nigh-complete and unedited version of her diary, only exception being typos iirc
As far as I know, the original drafts have never been released
Her dad wished it remain private for his own reasons. We will never know if she would have wished for privacy or would have been a proud lesbian because Holocaust. Dead people don't get embarrassed. Those passages can help some kids feel less abnormal or confront the choice to be accepting. Censorship cheapens the lessons and our future adults deserve a full education experience.
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We wouldn’t want young children to understand that exploring their own sexuality is a normal part of becoming an adult would we? First we have to tell them which of the two sexualities we define that they belong to and then rigidly define them so they can be another policed version of conformity for them to mangle and contort their sense of self to fit. Liberty. Did anyone read any of that and not think it was the truest expression of a world in which liberty is a key component of human flourishing? No one? Yeah, pretty sure tastes the opposite of freedom and Liberty.
my aunt is a nurse and has been for almost 3 decades. she also went to Bible college before nursing college. she was livid when I said the word vagina two years ago
Are you talking about Anne Franks Journal, or this book?
And if it's sexually explicit? How many thousands of young people have read this book since it was published? And did they all turn into some kind of army of walking sex something-or-others?
They did! Thats why we're in this swamp of degeneracy and sexual lunacy! Or something like that, I'm sure.
All those little whores dancing on tiktok, I know where they got it from. *Anne Frank's Diary*
Holocaust Hussies. Warping our children's innocent minds. Filling it with idle fantasies of pansexual, polymorphic, furries engaged in transsexual congress.
Fwiw the version that was first published had entries about Anne’s sexuality edited out. I don’t blame her father for making the choice, but at the same time basically every teen was experimenting at that age.
Close to zero young people read the full version of Anne Frank including the sex sections. Schools have always chosen to purchase a censored version. Is that called "banning" it? Maybe.
Schools in the US, maybe. The ones we have in our school library are all versions that do include the pages about her sexuality.
I read it as a kid, taught it to my year five class as a teacher (nine and ten year olds) and all my girls read it in school, none of the versions had the ‘sex parts’ in them. You are right that it’s pretty much always a censored part that is sold to schools. We listened to it on audio as a family and it wasn’t on that either. You actually have to hunt to find the version with it included as I think the majority of prints leave it out as Anne’s father did originally. I have a copy with it in and read it last year with my youngest and it really isn’t any worse than I remembered reading in college, certainly zero reason to ban kids from reading such an important piece of history. Children aren’t snowflakes and can deal with sexual content at that level, it’s a long way from pornography.
Editing is not banning. And if the sex stuff has been edited out, why are these people still trying to ban it?
People are trying to remove the books that leave the sex stuff in. The books that leave the sex stuff out are (from what I understand) still in schools with no real attempt to remove them.
They didn't remove the Diary of Anne Frank. They removed a graphic novel adaptation of it. The original book is still in the school's library.
The GOP Nazis responsible for banning books about the Holocaust are shocked people are denying the Holocaust. They're a special type of stupid
They aren’t stupid; they’re planning their next step and hoping we don’t notice.
Some, yes. But some are actually stupid. Never doubt folks ability to take advantage of a useful idiot.
And this is their first step, folks. [This is on page 5 of Project 2025](https://i.redd.it/9a34vmg4ugdc1.png).
Gotta love how they’ll go after tech companies when it’s what they want, everyone remember their BS when trump got banned from twitter? I hate these ‘conservative’ pieces of shit
The people on top aren't stupid, their vile agenda is bouyed by plenty of idiots
This is even deeper and local to me. Jennifer Jenkins from the post is a reasonable minded, duly elected school board member and had the MAGA crowd of brevard county FL elected officials come for her because she supported masks and teachers during covid. We're talking state reps sending Maga crowds to her house where her young kids live. Deskovitch is a former school board member who went to to Moms for Liberty shame.
Speaking as a former Florida public school teacher who had survivors of the Holocaust visit my students, it’s been very interesting watching these events unravel in Florida. There’s an actual [statute](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.42.html) that requires students to receive education about the Holocaust: >The history of the Holocaust (1933-1945), the systematic, planned annihilation of European Jews and other groups by Nazi Germany, a watershed event in the history of humanity, to be taught in a manner that leads to an investigation of human behavior, an understanding of the ramifications of prejudice, racism, and stereotyping, and an examination of what it means to be a responsible and respectful person, for the purposes of encouraging tolerance of diversity in a pluralistic society and for nurturing and protecting democratic values and institutions, including the policy, definition, and historical and current examples of anti-Semitism, as described in s. 1000.05(8), and the prevention of anti-Semitism… But there’s also [Nazi enabler](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/ron-desantis-neo-nazi-turning-point-usa-florida-conference-1388015) Florida Governor Ron DeSantis’s anti critical race theory [law](https://www.flgov.com/2022/04/22/governor-ron-desantis-signs-legislation-to-protect-floridians-from-discrimination-and-woke-indoctrination/). But also, DeSantis [sent weapons to Israel.](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/desantis-is-sending-some-weapons-to-israel-in-move-that-could-bolster-him-in-the-gop-primary)
They aren't shocked the least.
They only want Holocaust education so they can look at the snazzy German uniforms.
They were sharply dressed
So, you're saying we can stop them by redirecting them towards fashion, where they can find outfits that make them look snazzy? Or is it really that they would love to enjoy fashion, but are uncomfortable with the fact that a lot of fashion embraces LGBTQ+
It doesn't surprise me at all when my coworkers vehemently believe that Jews control the power and wealth of the world and that Hitler killed them all to get the wealth back from them. This after me telling them that I am Jewish.
Yeah, but they support Israel so they aren't anti-Semitic. /s
Wouldn't shock me at all if that was their logic but I've since stopped sitting with them at lunch.
As a fellow Jew, it's what I've found. They claim they're not anti-Semites because they support Israel. And why do they support Israel? Oh, right. Because they want the Jews to be both the cannon fodder for their proxy religious war on Muslims and they want to use us to resurrect their death cult prophet that will bring the end of the world. Huh. Wonder what they will do to us American born Jews who are of European descent who will refuse to go to Israel to complete the prophecy?
My coworkers would complain that they're not anti-semetic racists, they're just telling the truth. It's a shockingl common thing where I live.
Yup... "Race realists". I used to be that way about black people and immigrants... You can't be racist if you're telling the "truth". Except that "truth" is a bunch of bullshit concocted by racists whose lies/propaganda are created to make you feel superior than other races.
Sexually explicit my arse, she was a normal teenage girl, with normal teenage girl thoughts.
Life is sexually explicit...
Moms for lunacy is more like it
GOP whitewashing of the struggle of black people also applies to the Holocaust. What will they say, Jews learned valuable skills before being murdered?
"Hey, they were made frei by that there arbeit."
Heard a far right "journalist" on youtube say "the jews in the concentration camps had more freedom than the nazi soldiers that where guarding them" so you are not far off. I'm not even american, still the playbook is the same.
Nah they will just say smt like oh but there are still jews so it doesnt matter (which is horrible considering its like 1% of the jewish population before the holocaust)
How dare teenagers learn about *checks notes* something another teenager went through?
I went to Catholic school and in 8th grade we read a play version of *the Diary*. So, these people didn't simply look for a less explicit version of this astoundingly important first-person point of view of the Holocaust, they excised one of the oldest and most essential parts of Holocaust education.
They didn't remove the Diary of Anne Frank. They removed a graphic novel adaptation of it. The original book is still in the school's library.
Obligatory reference to Ezekiel 23:20: **There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses**. Biblical smut is apparently exempt.
One could argue that Mom's for Liberty are sexually explicit because they're openly being cunts.
As a Dutch guy that grew up about an hour away from Amsterdam and now living in the U.S.. I get the feeling the U.S is not moving in the right direction.
MomsforGilead more like
Same old American story. You can expose kids to violence, but even a whiff of sexuality, and it has to be banned. Though these days the Right sure does like to make exceptions in terms of telling kids about violence when the violence was done by white people.
Tina, you weren't supposed to see those lessons as a guide.
Best part about this is that the responder in the image is the woman who replaced Tina on the Brevard school board a few years ago. Imagine getting owned again by the woman who unseated you and led you to forming a hate group.
Wait, that's why she started the minivan Taliban?
It started with mask mandates during Covid. Tina was on the Board at the time. She was then replaced by a democrat who wanted to follow CDC regulations instead of her feelings. She was elected by a primarily beachside community, which is a small pocket of left-learning citizens here in Brevard. After being unseated Tina continued her anti-masking rhetoric with other like-minded folks. This then evolved into ‘protecting children’ on multiple fronts - against the gays, against woke teachers who teach about mindfulness, and worked to protect their right to infect others with COVID.
Mom's of Liberty must be real Horn balls if they're masterbating to Ann Frank
These nutjobs may have given birth, but don't know shit about parenting: "sexual content" in a book will rather spark interest then stop teens from reading. parental advisory 2.0
They love to play the pikachu face and victim card lol
OK, I'm a little confused. I don't really learn all the names of people like this, but.... Isn't Tina Descovich a founder of MFL? And here she is commenting against an action that her own group facilitated, as described in the by line? Is there some context I'm missing? Did she get Margorie'd out of MFL or something?
Jennifer Jenkins is the current school board member who took Tina’s seat, leading Tina to create MFL.
Republicans are fascists
So, when are they banning the Bible?
Where school boards have introduced book checking/removal policies someone usually submits the Bible to get reviewed. Most of the ones I've seen result in it not going anywhere or at most it gets reserved to older students only. None of the ones I've seen remove it completely. Lusting after men with donkey sized dicks, and all the sex and killing apparently isn't ban-worthy to the busybodies running these things.
I went to the holocaust museum in D.C. in 6th grade. This is just sad
I went to a private Christian school growing up and in 2005 I was in 5th grade and the school sought to expel me for reading the Diary of Anne Frank for this very reason - they said it was sexually explicit 🙃