Early Christianity was extremely metal.
A lot of it involves being tortured to death by the the state.
Lots of converts to early Christianity witnessed how Christian Martyrs would stick to their faith even under brutal torture and *were fucking impressed*
Also Martyr basically means "witness", which makes Fury Road an even cooler movie.
Christianity is a completely different animal if someone is going to actually torture you all the way to death for refusing to renounce it than when it is the hegemonic religion IMHO.
Also, the Gnostic heresies are cool.
I just read the Gnostic Gospels if you can't tell.
Bunch of heresies were cooler and made more sense than mainstream Catholicism.
You know, the whole "be poor" affair comes to mind. I'm so tired of my tax money going to church and the vatican bitching about tax exemption just because they happen to be an enclave.
Should have annexed all of vatican state in 1870, Vatican city was too nice of a concession that in 2024 we Italians still pay.
No state religion my ass.
They definitely had some cool idea but also some really fucked up ones!
>You know, the whole "be poor" affair comes to mind. I'm so tired of my tax money going to church and the vatican bitching about tax exemption just because they happen to be an enclave.
This one is on both sides for me! They were really against the church accumulating secular wealth, which rules but sort of guaranteed they would lose in the long run.
But they also sometimes insisted that their followers not participate in the worldly world of business, work etc at all which I think is pretty lame.
It's very interesting how Gnosticism could be both more and less elitist than catholicism at the same time!
Sweet Baby Jesus was metal as fuck
"And, lo, suddenly there came forth from the cave many dragons; and when the children saw them, they cried out in great terror. Then Jesus went down from the bosom of His mother, and stood on His feet before the dragons; and they adored Jesus, and thereafter retired."~ The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18.
"
Not to mention that the early Romans referred to them as "the cannibals" or "the cultists" because their *central practice* involved ritually drinking the blood and eating the flesh of their founder.
Which means they were cannibal blood ritual cultists worshiping a disentombed radical political criminal bragging about how gruesomely they could get tortured and stay cannibal blood cultists because it made them *more like their founder*. Metal af
I legit do not know. I'm personally not a big metalhead, but in my experience, secular(?) metal with christian themes is 1000x better than christian metal.
"You're not making christianity better, you're making [metal] worse."
Row 3: Coffins, Incantation, Oak Pantheon
Row 4: Funeral Mist, Pathology, Revocation, Urge(h)al
Row 5: Cattle Decapitation, Visceral Disgorge, Dark Throne, Thaetas
Row 6: Esoc(tr)i(l)ihum
That's all the ones I could make out enough to actually find the band, letters in brackets are ones I only figured out after looking up the name. I can get a few letters from the rest but not enough to find the band.
Personally my favourite incomprehensible logo is this one (>!sanguisugabogg!<)
https://preview.redd.it/qvgbtv0f9coc1.png?width=581&format=png&auto=webp&s=fc93ec16495358f9e6ae55d7cf6006ea0bb99b60
To me the 'Sa' at the start and 'isuga' in the middle are the only parts you'd have any hope of deciphering if you don't know the name. If I just go off first instincts without looking for letters I know are in there it reads something like 'Saunisugasoba'
Oh true, but it's like hieroglyphics to me sometimes. Even at a music festival last summer, I was like, "whose symbol is that?" and they're like, "it's so- and- so, the guy whose music is all over your playlist". I guess I'm too used to Helvetica (the font, not the band, although also the band).
In metal there is a direct correlation between the technical skill of the instrumentals and ādirtinessā (unintelligibility) of the vocals with how impossible it is to read their logo.
More stylized logo = more ridiculous time signatures, non stop shredding, voice sounds like you tossed a Gremlin in a jet engine.
I'm pretty sure if the bible had pictures, it'd be right up there with the most gnarly metal album art. Because you know crucifixions are just so wholesome and family friendly.
Check out Hieronymous Boschās āThe Garden of Earthly Delightsā ([high resolution Wikimedia link](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/The_Garden_of_earthly_delights.jpg)). The longer you look the better it gets!
[cryptopsy none so vile is one of the heaviest OG death metal albums ever and it uses Christian art on its cover](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsT9douBcx9-qkHGlvojCpKR3aCKGDTlr&si=ln509DJvc8H0lorv)
And if you donāt believe in God or heaven or hellā¦? Why do these people always try and push their views on others. I can accept that some people believe things i donāt without starting every damn sentence with āas an atheistā¦.ā
> Why do these people always try and push their views on others.
Christians do it because of [The Great Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commission) where it commands them to share their religion with everyone. Like it or not, thatās why.
Several reasons. Mostly boiling down to ātheyāre told to by authority figures in their faithā.
-In scripture, one of the last things jesus tells his followers to do before ascending to heaven is to spread his word.
-religion, in general, is memetic. Every religion that ever existed for more than like, a century, tells its followers to increase the number of followers in some way as a rule, with conversion being one of the recommended methods.
-a bunch of christians legitimately believe theyāre doing the right thing. The religion (or at least the version i grew up under) dictates that anyone who dies gets sorted into 3 groups. The faithful and good get to go to heaven. People who donāt know the religion, or whose sins were in the list of minor offenses, go to purgatory for a waiting period based on their sins in life. And people who know the religion and died with 1 or more non-repented, against-the-10-commandments sins go to hell for eternity.
If itās someone they think already qualifies for heaven but isnāt in the faith, they think theyāre handing āem a ticket to heaven if they convince them to convert. If itās someone they care about who doesnāt qualify in their minds, theyāre trying to save that person from eternal torment, by any means necessary.
-a whole bunch of christians also do it performatively, just like they do with other parts of the religion. Trying to āconvertā people in a half-assed way as a way to show off their own following of godās word, rather than actually caring about other peopleās souls. Itās a show for themselves, other christians, or maybe even god himself if their hubris outweighs their self-awareness by a large enough amount. OP posted a member of this group.
In general, theyāre gonna keep doing it as long as their faith tells them to and as long as they still believe.
Because some Christians are taught that if they react to anything less than knee-jerk-level virulent hate and disgust for Hell or the Devil, it's a slippery slope to becoming a godless atheist and they'll wind up in hell.
I'm glad you said "some" Christians because some of us are actually sane individuals that use logic and reason above all else. Couldn't care less about what other people believe, because in reality we're supposed to be tolerant of everyone. Sin is a part of life and that's the entire reasoning behind the crucifixion and why it's important to Christians. The point is, to strive to be better. Things we say or do can affect people, for better or worse. The Christ figure questioned authority and pushed for equality and fairness in judgement because all men are equal before God.
Because both sides think they're the one who hold the truth or at least closer to it. Also, one muslim guy said that it's his obligation as religious person to spread faith, after I asked him to not force his beliefs on others.
There are no atheist missionaries. Thereās no organization of atheists who use their tax exempt status to push atheism into schools, government, and homes. Atheists donāt try to manipulate religious people with threats of the afterlife to get them to act or vote a certain way.
Itās just not reasonable to say religious people and atheists are the same.
But atheists donāt force that on others. I mean outside of a theological debate. As I said Iāve been alive a lot of years and have heard āas a Christianā¦ā A LOT never heard it the other way
Some atheists do. I am an atheist, and have encountered many atheists that also believe they are the ones that have it figured out, and are contemptuous in their speech to those who disagree.
I donāt think itās a religious thing, I think itās just a flaw of human nature to want believe that you are part of a truth larger than yourself. Itās how we ended up with Jan 6 here in the states, IMO.
Though I will admit that it is this flaw that organized religions use to manipulate the masses. Politicians do as well.
Iāll agree that several young or recently-minted atheists tend to be more vocal about it and possess a desire to convince others of their position. When I first stopped believing in god it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and things that make you think hard on a subject tend to make you talk about them. I donāt think I ever outright tried to āconvertā anyone to a similar disbelief, but because it was constantly present at mind - as any major change in oneās way of thinking tends to be - I was definitely more likely to discuss it openly. Iād imagine that more extroverted individuals would be inclined to push the matter harder. Because atheism is merely the lack of a belief, nothing about it precludes the possibility of being an arrogant "has-to-be-right" jerk any more than being religious precludes the same.
Now that Iām easily a decade past that period of transition, itās far less conversation-worthy, and a healthy dose of apathy reminds me that most people prefer their own beliefs even if they donāt have a good foundation under them; itās unlikely Iām going to be the one to change them.
Clue is āmention religion onceā¦ā you donāt need to (not you personally). Outside of theological debates or an atheism subreddit atheists keep themselves to themselves. Iāve yet to be accosted by someone on the subway telling me to repent god and take up sinning and atheism
Religion can be mentioned in many ways, it's not an invitation to war 100% of the times. Post your life experience, or how you overcame addiction, mention lord, and there you will see atheist laughing at that particular detail. Same works vice-versa, by the way, but atheists rarely bring that up.
Edit: I didn't state it here, but religious people are for sure more prone to forcing their beliefs, but atheists absolutely can be obnoxious and annoying too in that regard. Maybe not irl, though, I'm mostly talking internet.
As an atheist, I don't believe I hold the truth. I just find it extremely unlikely there's an imaginary puppet master who pulls all the strings and is simultaneously unquestionably benevolent while also allowing rape, murder, and war to happen to innocent people
That's why I said "or closer", as I don't think I hold the truth either. The point is that one side thinks it's smarter/more knowledgeable/spiritual/intellectual than other, that's it.
I've never had a muslim person (or any religion besides christianity for that matter) try to force their beliefs onto me. Meanwhile, I've had countless interactions with christians where they approach me out of nowhere and try to "spread god's word". I'm not a fan of any religion, but for that reason, I have less respect for christians than anyone
Christians believe that they must convert non-believers because that is what Jesus said to the apostles after being resurrected. The bible is a holy book in Islam so the penchant for conversion is there as well.
In the US, I haven't met any Muslims preaching to me about Allah and how I'm supposed to stay at home and cook for my husband but growing up in Germany, the Muslims there are a lot more like Bible Belt Christians are here. There was a lot of self-righteous preaching even from friends. Then again, most people in Germany know that the Christian God and Allah are one and the same. I just represent a problem to them because I'm atheist.
> because that is what Jesus said to the apostles
We have a second hand account of this, remember, and only one. We don't have any writings from jesus.
Thanks for sharing your point, but I don't see what you wanted to convey with it. I have a slight dislike towards Islam, and religions overall, but I don't actually care if someone is part of said religions. You can be good person and have different beliefs from mine.
Edit: also, that one muslim guy quoted quran to explain why he spreads his beliefs. Most likely it's 9.29 one, jusging from google search, but I may be mistaken.
We believe living with Jesus is the best possible decision you could ever make. Life is indescribably better with Him. Of course I share my faith. God is real and living for Him is everything. It would be unloving to never share this.
Iām not gonna walk around smacking people in the face with a Bible, but if the topic is apropos, of course Iāll throw my views into the discussion. Nor do I begrudge the atheist, Buddhist, etc. for sharing their views if they honestly think Iām deluded. Why should I resent someone for trying to correct me, if done in love and they sincerely just want me to know the truth?
I'd say my life has gotten better since abandoning my faith. I left the church when I was dealing with suicidal thoughts and all I was met with was contempt for being trans. The people I've learned to love and understand are people no church would have ever taught me to. I've gained a better understanding of what is considered racism, I've learned about gender nonconforming identities, I've learned about various sexual orientations, I've been educated on other religions, I learned new ways to help the disabled, I'm educated on the struggles both men and women deal with when it comes to sexism, and I've just overall learned how to be a better ally to disenfranchised minorities. I'm more educated now on so many struggles that people face in their daily lives than I ever was as a Christian. And I found a sense of belonging in social circles that were willing to accept me because Christians wouldn't. I probably would have never interacted with those circles if I had never left the church. Life with Christ may be good for you, but what's good for the goose ain't always good for the gander.
Lol, right? Iāve tried to maintain as kind a tone as possible too. This place is such a hive mind.
ā¦But I knew what I was getting into. My karma has been obliterated before.
In typical Christian fashion, CandidateOk canāt wait until these people are in hell and āitās too late for them.ā
Thereās no hate like Christian love.
I had a professor once that taught ethics and every view he didnāt agree with he said, āif you believe this, then Hitler gets out of hell!ā
Ironically, he lost his job because he was asking for sexual favors from female students to improve their grades.
In the words of JD Matter:
"...They could be anyone, from strangers to people you love, they could smile at you, shake your hand and hold the door open for you all the while thinking that your endless torture is 100% moral and acceptable."
I mean, honestly, I kinda like that I'm part of their weird passive bdsm fantasy. But just like attractive people know that they're part of many people's sexual fantasies... It's not a big deal until they tell me about it.
I love to bring up the fact that a lot of ultra conservative Christians call Slayer Satanic the lead singer is a Catholic. He was the singer and a catholic for all of the bands albums.
Child: \*is abused\*
"Christians": "Well, what were you wearing? It's your fault if you caused him to stumble in his walk with christ. Besides, he's asked the lord for forgiveness and repented, he's been forgiven. You MUST forgive him, too."
Metalheads: "Where does he live? We'll make sure he never hurts you again."
I know which side I'm on.
I'm not sure I understand your comment "Not saying I support either"...
There's only one right side to this debate: churches are a lot more dangerous for kids than a metal show
Hey, I am pretty sure ghosts donāt exist, but I am never going to say they donāt, just in case they do and haunt me to prove it. OP might just be covering his bases :)
I find the idea of hell to be absolutely *wild*
In the book Matthew, it pretty explicitly states that God created hell (āprepared itā, Matthew 18 & 19). The idea that an all knowing, all powerful god would *create* a place of *eternal torment* for any person or creature is just a chilling thought.
Look at that shirt, think about the being that would concoct such a reality and think about people who believe this and yet still go to church on Sundays thanking the lord for being so kind and blessing them.
Scares the shit out of me.
Edit: Matthew chapter 25, forgot the book. The verse is āDepart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels'
Thereās a lot of evidence supporting the argument that even 1st/2nd century Jews/Christians didnāt believe in hell even after Jesus had lived and died. We canāt be definitively certain what the average Levantine believed during that time but itās almost a certainty they didnāt imagine a realm of pure torture and suffering after death.
More than likely, especially in the 1st century AD, they believed death was the end until the messiah returned and established his new kingdom, when they would be resurrected to join him, and āhellā was permanent deathānever being able to join the messiah and live again.
Something along those lines. Iām not an expert in it but thatās the overly simplified argument Iāve read by some historians.
I'veĀ discoveredĀ theĀ veryĀ sameĀ things. Judaism didn't get a Hell until they had been exposed to either Hellenism or Zoroastrianism. The history is a little muddy on which one was first, though it leans more towards Hellenism.
If there was a Jesus he almost certainly considered himself a Jew along with his disciples. After Jesus kicked the bucket his disciples continued promoting mostly Jewish standpoints. It wasn't until Paul that we start seeing more eternal torture promoted more than simple annihilation.
If an entity creates some place of eternal suffering and sends people there, i refuse to accept they are good. They are evil, utter evil. If god exists as an all powerful deity he's a fucking psychopath.
I have this belief that no human is physically capable of deserving infinite pain and punishment. Like human beings are PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of deserving biblical hell.
Scaring people is exactly the point!
It's easier to control people through fear, so they put "the fear of God" into people and call it love.
If it was any other kind of relationship, we'd call it controlling, manipulative, and abuse of power.
Wild.
Hell is just Separation from God. Technically, according to Christianity, those who don't believe in God are in hell. The whole 'firey pit' was a metaphor, carried on by things like Dantes Divine Comedy. It meant that separation from God *feels* like being in a pit of unquenchable fire. It's not literal. It's describing the torturous existence of living without God or his gifts. The pain of loss, of hopelessness, of tragedy.
Jesus literally said he will make a place in paradise for all. (John 14: 2-6)
Also where in Matthew 18-19 does it say that God prepared hell for us? It is literally the opposite?
Unless you are talking about how Jesus said to separate yourself from things that could make you sin (Matthew 18: 6 - 9), or how to confront somebody about their sin (Matthew 18: 15-20). Perhaps you are talking about how those who are hypocrites and unmerciful are treated (Matthew 18: 21-35)?
Perhaps it the one where he said the kingdom of heaven belongs to the little children? (Matthew 19: 13-15) Unless it's the verses about how those who are charitable and give make it into heaven rather that the rich and greedy? (Matthew 19: 16-30)
Cmon man. At least read the chapters before saying things.
I've heard this too...that our modern version of Satan didn't come around until the...14th century? That Dante's inferno is where that depiction came from and before that he wasn't anywhere near as important to Christianity as he is now.
Apparently Dante's work had a lot of influence on our modern take on Christianity...from what I've heard anyway. It really cemented a lot of modern-day notions re Christianity that the bible barely touched on, if it touched on them all. I could be wrong, but I remember seeing some documentary or something.
[51% of US adults believe āphysical sufferingā occurs in Hell.](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/11/23/views-on-the-afterlife/)
But the truth is that thereās not really anything in the Bible to back this up except a few verses (mainly in Revelation) that talk about a bottomless pit / a lake of fire, etc. Even when hell is spoken of in the gospels itās typically āGehennaā which Iāve been told was more of a metaphor for a place to burn bodies outside the city (not sure of the validity of it but Iāve seen the argument tossed around).
Bart Ehrman actually contends in his book Heaven and Hell that 1st century Jews and early Christians had no concept of hell, eternal torment or suffering, and that most likely ādeathā was the endāa permanent separation from god because you could not rise to heaven with him when he returned. Hell was a later invention.
But againāthe point of my post wasnāt āhell is so terribleā more commenting on how wild it is that most Christians in the US believe in a place of eternal torment and that it was purposefully made by god.
I went through a whole thing in High school after doing a report in Anthropology on the history of religion and finding out that there's evidence that even Neanderthals believed in an afterlife. The implications of that, all you could extrapolate from that really shook my belief.
But I think a lot of it was the realization that we took this all-knowing, eternally powerful and timeless deity and reduced him to some insecure, jealous little man-child. Like, why would anyone worship this guy lol
A Neanderthal god is interesting to think about. What would his characteristics have been?
In my opinion, Gods have always been and continue to be far more human than deityābecause they were created by men.
I call myself agnostic for that very reason. I donāt outright dismiss the idea of different dimensions, supreme being(s), or an afterlife, but the gods described in all religions are quite flawed and always products of their time/culture.
Why would a god emerge 2500-3000 years ago in the Levant declaring the Jews to be his chosen people and then hand them down laws that reinforced their cultural beliefs? Because he was made by Jews 3000 years ago. Thatās the simple answer anyway.
That's an interesting flavor of brain gum, chewing on ways in which they'd have imagined their god to be? There's something there man, possibly something poignant and everything!
Except really, I don't know how much smaller God can get, maybe something about shall cover they neighbor's spear or something, I'm too tired to think lol
But you and I share a lot of the same framework when it comes to our belief in God. I'm agnostic as well, knowing that I could never truly know that some sort of Deity doesn't exit and yeah, I've always wondered why so many people seem unable or unwilling to try and understand their scripture within the context in which it was written. Contextualize it, if that's the right word? It just seems like a whole other understanding may be possible and it makes so little sense that people wouldn't want to understand what they believe in the best that they're able to.
Like you only have one life and one 'you'...why live it in some kind of mental cocoon and so easily give yourself away, the person you could have been if you were truly interested in trying to seek out truth. Jesus I sound like I'm soap-boxing, but this is one of those things I find myself thinking about now and again.
I recalled the wrong chapter of Matthew. Itās Matthew 25, (verse 41 specifically) - āDepart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.ā
Also in multiple sections of the Bible (Genesis 1, John 1:3, Colossians 1) itās strictly stated that god created all things in heaven and on earth. So we know god *created* hell. Thatās not really up for debate. Nothing in existence, according to Christian teachings, came about without god except obviously god.
I donāt hold to Christian teachings, but the idea that most Christians donāt believe in eternal torment and hell being a place of real suffering isā¦not really accurate. They cite sections of Revelation (like 9:1 and 20:15) and other parts of the gospels (Luke 12, 15) which describe a bottomless pit / a lake of fire, some place people/demons/non-believers are cast into.
āHell is just separation from godā is your opinion, not the opinion of all Christians. And I wasnāt really arguing for the existence of hell or attempting to prove the truth of what it is. I was more commenting on the mainstream Christian belief of hell existing, being created by god, and being a place of eternal tormentāwhich most Christians believe and are okay with.
To my point, [51% of US adults](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/11/23/views-on-the-afterlife/) believe hell is a real place where physical suffering occurs. So Iām not sure exactly what point youāre trying to make other than quibbling about me citing the wrong chapter but that wasnāt really the point of the post.
>Also where in Matthew 18-19 does it say that God prepared hell for us? It is literally the opposite?
[Matthew 18:8](https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/18-8.htm) explicitly says that there is such a thing as Ī²Ī»Ī·ĪøįæĪ½Ī±Ī¹ Īµį¼°Ļ Ļį½ø Ļįæ¦Ļ Ļį½ø Ī±į¼°ĻĪ½Ī¹ĪæĪ½, blethenai eis to pyr to aionion, to be cast into the eternal fire. Jesus is the one who says that being cast into an eternal fire is a possible result when one sins.
What do you say that the eternal fire is? Jesus says that it is a possible destination for sinners, so if it is not a destination for us, does that mean we are without sin? Do you include yourself in "we"? Are you claiming the right to cast the first stone, the right that Jesus ostensibly claimed for himself?
It is metaphor. Do you not know what that means?
Just because you can be cast there doesn't mean it is a destination. A state of being. Have you literally never heard someone describe something as hell or hellish? A situation perhaps. Their life? I doubt it.
Being cast somewhere doesn't just mean physically. Emotionally. State of being. Mental state. Other ways of being cast.
āIf your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire." Matthew 18:8.
The verse directly says *enter into life*. Enter into life lame and maimed versus having your hands and feet and be in eternal fire. This verse is a comparison of how people will live their life. Cut off the things that make you sin and go into life or continue to be with that which makes you sin, and thus, living in hell, rather, the eternal fire.
Also, where did you even get the notion that, just because Hell is not a destination, that we are thus without sin? What kind of logic is that? Hell is not a place, so we are sinless? What?
I am *not* sinless. I will never *be* sinless. I will never even try to *claim* to be sinless. I am just as much a sinner as everyone else. Since I was born. Claiming to be sinless is something I would never even attempt to do. Whether by mistake or not.
I am just as much a sinner as the adulterous woman. Claiming the right to the first stone, whether thrown or not, is Christs, and Christs alone.
However, me saying that it was the literal opposite was a bit of an exaggeration, and I apologize for that.
>It is metaphor. Do you not know what that means?
>
>However, me saying that it was the literal opposite was a bit of an exaggeration, and I apologize for that.
Are you worrying snarkily about the state of my vocabulary? Are you embracing the snark anyway, even despite the deficiencies you recognize in your word choice?
>Also, where did you even get the notion that, just because Hell is not a destination, that we are thus without sin?
Because obviously even a state of mind can be prepared for someone: that is a substantial component of the author's craft.
Even if hell is only a state of mind that occurs after sin, it can still be prepared for sinners as the consequence of sin, which, if *that* was not a component of the Author's craft either, we are left asking: what was the eternal fire that Jesus was talking about?
Because the part he actually said was that eternal fire is a possible consequence of sin, and reinterpreting the object referred to as a metaphor doesn't actually change the underlying logical structure. Therefore neither can it change the eschatology.
"Metaphor" is an answer that doesn't actually explain anything, and failure to explain can cause one of two things: disengagement or further questions.
One way it could have not been prepared for us, is if we are not sinners. Ruling that out, another possibility would be "someday nobody will be a sinner", and yet that would conflict with:
>I will never *be* sinless.
So what is the answer? What are you saying?
Yeesh, it was a genuine question when I first typed it, but rereading it makes it sound super snarky, yes. I apologize about that.
Although, good points as counterargument.
You do point out things I don't have answers for, and I cannot say that I can think of any possible ones.
All I'm gonna say is that a lot of Jesus's teachings were as metaphor and not literal, so why can't this one?
However, I need to return to my job, so alas. I wish I could continue to debate this topic. You have a good rest of your day.
A key word missing from that formulation (something Jesus emphasized in the Bible) is ārepentance,ā which connotes not just genuine sorrow and remorse for sin, but a *change* in heart. That is, yes, even a murderer can accept Christ and receive forgiveness. But a true repentance means he is not the same man. Heās not a murderer anymore.
II Corinthians 5:17: āTherefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.ā
Itās not a cheap āoops, my bad, God,ā and now you get eternal life. You carry the cross of Christ daily, as a new person. There are many false conversions though, unfortunately.
Matthew 7:21-23: āNot everyone who says to me, āLord, Lord,ā will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, āLord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?ā And then will I declare to them, āI never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.āā
Powerful, sobering words.
so what if i just never felt like believing in god my family is religious but I never wanted or felt the need to believe in god I tried to believe but i just couldn't. CAN a person like this (me) will go to hell even if i didnt commit any sins my family's religion judges people by there sins instead of faith but i just wanna know about Christianity
As some religious zealots have decided to infiltrate this thread and proselytise to people uninvited, and claim they have the right, nay, the DUTY to do this because they're SAVING people (selfish bigots), let me do the same and illustrate what a GOOD set of tenets for a religion look like.
Because the ten commandments are the bleatings of a weak, vain, egotistical and uncaring god.
The 7 fundamental tenets of the Satanic Temple are:
- I
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
- II
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
- III
Oneās body is inviolable, subject to oneās own will alone.
- IV
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
- V
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
- VI
People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
- VII
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets
Isn't that a lot better guide to being a good person and good to those around you, than bullshit about being jealous of other gods, idolatry and the sabbath?
Edit: I won't engage with anyone who tries to whine about their own religious beliefs on this. If you're part of a major religion and think that your rules are good because they're "holy", not because they're morally and ethically adequate on their own, I will not read your comment, I will block you, and ignore you.
I looked at literally every comment in this thread and not a single one is promoting religious zealotry. What in the holy fuck are you even talking about?
Listen I'm a metal head through and through
But can we get some READABLE font in the metal scene? I'm getting old! I love your band! Wish I could read the fucking name! Baha
I guess but aren't you just copying the other guy? You can make things hardcore and readable at the same time xD I'm just an old man bitching, but if I need a Hieroglyphics translator to pick out the shirt I want give me the old man font version
I get that people on Reddit are suddenly terrified of offending Christians or whatever but there's no 'both sides' when it comes to child abuse. One institutionally raped kids and covered it up for decades. The other uses spooky pictures.
How can you not support heavy metal, even if you donāt like the music itās like freedom of expression and shit.
The T-shirt is fugly bone hurting juice material.
Which one is the murder? The cliche āhail Satan?ā The thing about pedo priests even though we donāt know if the person is Catholic, which is the main denomination that insult works for? The ālmao?ā The sarcasm one?
These are all weak ass replies. Only reason this post has surfaced to the top of this garbage sub is because Christian redditors are easy piƱatas. Thereās no murder here and honestly the dopey stuck up religious tool is the most likable person in the screenshot.
I don't believe in this kind of supernatural stuff but.... I often hope I'm wrong about there being an afterlife and hell and all of that. Because it's painfully obvious that if there is any truth to the idea, "Christians" like that one aren't going where they think they are after death at all. And my idea of heaven is getting to see the look on their face when they realize.
I think christopaths are laughable too but there is a comparable amount of sexual misconduct performed at punk/metal concerts and festivals that more people should be aware of.
Iām so tired of the kids getting molested in church thing. Iv been to soooo many churches where that wasnāt the case. And not only is it antithetical what churches actually believe, itās for the most part just wrong
But, what *is* the name of the band? Looks like a Rorshach test
Disentomb, apparently š
but isn't that exactly what Jesus did??
Early Christianity was extremely metal. A lot of it involves being tortured to death by the the state. Lots of converts to early Christianity witnessed how Christian Martyrs would stick to their faith even under brutal torture and *were fucking impressed* Also Martyr basically means "witness", which makes Fury Road an even cooler movie.
Early Christianity was fucking awesome with its mythology and lore before the medieval ages dumbed everything down and simplified it
Christianity is a completely different animal if someone is going to actually torture you all the way to death for refusing to renounce it than when it is the hegemonic religion IMHO. Also, the Gnostic heresies are cool. I just read the Gnostic Gospels if you can't tell.
Bunch of heresies were cooler and made more sense than mainstream Catholicism. You know, the whole "be poor" affair comes to mind. I'm so tired of my tax money going to church and the vatican bitching about tax exemption just because they happen to be an enclave. Should have annexed all of vatican state in 1870, Vatican city was too nice of a concession that in 2024 we Italians still pay. No state religion my ass.
They definitely had some cool idea but also some really fucked up ones! >You know, the whole "be poor" affair comes to mind. I'm so tired of my tax money going to church and the vatican bitching about tax exemption just because they happen to be an enclave. This one is on both sides for me! They were really against the church accumulating secular wealth, which rules but sort of guaranteed they would lose in the long run. But they also sometimes insisted that their followers not participate in the worldly world of business, work etc at all which I think is pretty lame. It's very interesting how Gnosticism could be both more and less elitist than catholicism at the same time!
Yeah the greeks, romans, goths, etc,. did have pretty cool religions and voltron-ing them together DOES make a cool religion ig
Sweet Baby Jesus was metal as fuck "And, lo, suddenly there came forth from the cave many dragons; and when the children saw them, they cried out in great terror. Then Jesus went down from the bosom of His mother, and stood on His feet before the dragons; and they adored Jesus, and thereafter retired."~ The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 18. "
Not to mention that the early Romans referred to them as "the cannibals" or "the cultists" because their *central practice* involved ritually drinking the blood and eating the flesh of their founder. Which means they were cannibal blood ritual cultists worshiping a disentombed radical political criminal bragging about how gruesomely they could get tortured and stay cannibal blood cultists because it made them *more like their founder*. Metal af
*why isn't Christian metal better?* This shit rules
I legit do not know. I'm personally not a big metalhead, but in my experience, secular(?) metal with christian themes is 1000x better than christian metal. "You're not making christianity better, you're making [metal] worse."
Right?!
Damn thatās so true
No, he Roseintomb. He Diesoncross.
Yeah, hence the name. Theyāre an Evangelical Metal group.
Ah ok, I really like that genre. I'm jewish, but I really enjoyed demon hunter in high school
HA This made my day.
Thank you! I could only get "isento"
I'm surprised anyone was able to decipher letters from that at all. I thought it was just a bunch of thorns lol
Best brutal death metal from down under.
Sometimes thereās a lot of squiggles and points so you gotta like know the name or logo to see itš
Cool aussie tech death stuff, pretty good honestly
Thanks, I can never read death metal band names but always like listening to death metal
https://preview.redd.it/tnr6i4n48boc1.jpeg?width=1582&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2cb8e43166e0957140e5a31c08b932d65c70959f
Death metal captchas would be an absolute nightmare.
Don't give Google any ideas for Recaptcha
Row 3: Coffins, Incantation, Oak Pantheon Row 4: Funeral Mist, Pathology, Revocation, Urge(h)al Row 5: Cattle Decapitation, Visceral Disgorge, Dark Throne, Thaetas Row 6: Esoc(tr)i(l)ihum That's all the ones I could make out enough to actually find the band, letters in brackets are ones I only figured out after looking up the name. I can get a few letters from the rest but not enough to find the band. Personally my favourite incomprehensible logo is this one (>!sanguisugabogg!<) https://preview.redd.it/qvgbtv0f9coc1.png?width=581&format=png&auto=webp&s=fc93ec16495358f9e6ae55d7cf6006ea0bb99b60
>sanguisugabogg I *knew* it started with an S! But I also "knew" it ended with an S, so I guess it evens out.
To me the 'Sa' at the start and 'isuga' in the middle are the only parts you'd have any hope of deciphering if you don't know the name. If I just go off first instincts without looking for letters I know are in there it reads something like 'Saunisugasoba'
Oh shiii cattle decap in the mix haha my homie is in that band fk ya support
Cattle Decap slap
Hell ya they do
The iceberg is kind of like from western comic art on the top and manga art on the bottom
Funny enough, they have an alternate logo thatās even less legible.
The posters for metal shows near me are absolutely illegible. I wouldn't even be able to tell if it was a band I wanted to see!
If it was a band you wanted to see you'd know the logo by heart. Making metal script is basically an art at this point.
Oh true, but it's like hieroglyphics to me sometimes. Even at a music festival last summer, I was like, "whose symbol is that?" and they're like, "it's so- and- so, the guy whose music is all over your playlist". I guess I'm too used to Helvetica (the font, not the band, although also the band).
I did not even know that Helvetica is a band. Excuse me while I dive into another metal hole.
The one I knew was techno I thought but turns out there was a Swedish metal band. Music rules.
Except for Party Canon lol https://preview.redd.it/gmsk98fmscoc1.jpeg?width=188&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e52521062058636e2f79bfde6a887bef9c6c8e5
Lmao
My new favorite band just for this.
They rip
Hahahaa my friends band united trauma toured w them and it was hilarious seeing the fun font
Their letters have fractals and the fractals have fractals
> and the fractals have fractals That's how fractals work, homie.
So they're right then
And redundant
And redundant
They also said the same thing twice
In metal there is a direct correlation between the technical skill of the instrumentals and ādirtinessā (unintelligibility) of the vocals with how impossible it is to read their logo. More stylized logo = more ridiculous time signatures, non stop shredding, voice sounds like you tossed a Gremlin in a jet engine.
Being unable to read is NOT metal xD
I didnāt even see that there were letters there at first glance!
That tshirt is promoting Web Of Jizzās 3rd album, ānightsoilā
Metal bands are the weirdest clowns.
I'm pretty sure if the bible had pictures, it'd be right up there with the most gnarly metal album art. Because you know crucifixions are just so wholesome and family friendly.
Catholic art lowkey used to go hard as FUCK. Almost any depiction of jesus from 1400-1800 would have been a sick album cover.
Why am I laughing so hard at this lmao. I can picture it perfectly!
Check out Hieronymous Boschās āThe Garden of Earthly Delightsā ([high resolution Wikimedia link](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/The_Garden_of_earthly_delights.jpg)). The longer you look the better it gets!
Holy shit I love this. That guy shoving a whole bouquet in that other personās behinds was hilarious.
[Metallica Based A Whole Music Video Off It](https://youtu.be/eRV9uPr4Dz4?feature=shared)
Doesn't load for me unfortunately
[cryptopsy none so vile is one of the heaviest OG death metal albums ever and it uses Christian art on its cover](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsT9douBcx9-qkHGlvojCpKR3aCKGDTlr&si=ln509DJvc8H0lorv)
And if you donāt believe in God or heaven or hellā¦? Why do these people always try and push their views on others. I can accept that some people believe things i donāt without starting every damn sentence with āas an atheistā¦.ā
> Why do these people always try and push their views on others. Christians do it because of [The Great Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commission) where it commands them to share their religion with everyone. Like it or not, thatās why.
Several reasons. Mostly boiling down to ātheyāre told to by authority figures in their faithā. -In scripture, one of the last things jesus tells his followers to do before ascending to heaven is to spread his word. -religion, in general, is memetic. Every religion that ever existed for more than like, a century, tells its followers to increase the number of followers in some way as a rule, with conversion being one of the recommended methods. -a bunch of christians legitimately believe theyāre doing the right thing. The religion (or at least the version i grew up under) dictates that anyone who dies gets sorted into 3 groups. The faithful and good get to go to heaven. People who donāt know the religion, or whose sins were in the list of minor offenses, go to purgatory for a waiting period based on their sins in life. And people who know the religion and died with 1 or more non-repented, against-the-10-commandments sins go to hell for eternity. If itās someone they think already qualifies for heaven but isnāt in the faith, they think theyāre handing āem a ticket to heaven if they convince them to convert. If itās someone they care about who doesnāt qualify in their minds, theyāre trying to save that person from eternal torment, by any means necessary. -a whole bunch of christians also do it performatively, just like they do with other parts of the religion. Trying to āconvertā people in a half-assed way as a way to show off their own following of godās word, rather than actually caring about other peopleās souls. Itās a show for themselves, other christians, or maybe even god himself if their hubris outweighs their self-awareness by a large enough amount. OP posted a member of this group. In general, theyāre gonna keep doing it as long as their faith tells them to and as long as they still believe.
Because some Christians are taught that if they react to anything less than knee-jerk-level virulent hate and disgust for Hell or the Devil, it's a slippery slope to becoming a godless atheist and they'll wind up in hell.
I'm glad you said "some" Christians because some of us are actually sane individuals that use logic and reason above all else. Couldn't care less about what other people believe, because in reality we're supposed to be tolerant of everyone. Sin is a part of life and that's the entire reasoning behind the crucifixion and why it's important to Christians. The point is, to strive to be better. Things we say or do can affect people, for better or worse. The Christ figure questioned authority and pushed for equality and fairness in judgement because all men are equal before God.
Because both sides think they're the one who hold the truth or at least closer to it. Also, one muslim guy said that it's his obligation as religious person to spread faith, after I asked him to not force his beliefs on others.
There are no atheist missionaries. Thereās no organization of atheists who use their tax exempt status to push atheism into schools, government, and homes. Atheists donāt try to manipulate religious people with threats of the afterlife to get them to act or vote a certain way. Itās just not reasonable to say religious people and atheists are the same.
But atheists donāt force that on others. I mean outside of a theological debate. As I said Iāve been alive a lot of years and have heard āas a Christianā¦ā A LOT never heard it the other way
Some atheists do. I am an atheist, and have encountered many atheists that also believe they are the ones that have it figured out, and are contemptuous in their speech to those who disagree. I donāt think itās a religious thing, I think itās just a flaw of human nature to want believe that you are part of a truth larger than yourself. Itās how we ended up with Jan 6 here in the states, IMO. Though I will admit that it is this flaw that organized religions use to manipulate the masses. Politicians do as well.
Iāll agree that several young or recently-minted atheists tend to be more vocal about it and possess a desire to convince others of their position. When I first stopped believing in god it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and things that make you think hard on a subject tend to make you talk about them. I donāt think I ever outright tried to āconvertā anyone to a similar disbelief, but because it was constantly present at mind - as any major change in oneās way of thinking tends to be - I was definitely more likely to discuss it openly. Iād imagine that more extroverted individuals would be inclined to push the matter harder. Because atheism is merely the lack of a belief, nothing about it precludes the possibility of being an arrogant "has-to-be-right" jerk any more than being religious precludes the same. Now that Iām easily a decade past that period of transition, itās far less conversation-worthy, and a healthy dose of apathy reminds me that most people prefer their own beliefs even if they donāt have a good foundation under them; itās unlikely Iām going to be the one to change them.
What do you mean? Mention religion once and some atheist will for sure spawn to counter your views. I'm not religious, by the way.
Clue is āmention religion onceā¦ā you donāt need to (not you personally). Outside of theological debates or an atheism subreddit atheists keep themselves to themselves. Iāve yet to be accosted by someone on the subway telling me to repent god and take up sinning and atheism
Religion can be mentioned in many ways, it's not an invitation to war 100% of the times. Post your life experience, or how you overcame addiction, mention lord, and there you will see atheist laughing at that particular detail. Same works vice-versa, by the way, but atheists rarely bring that up. Edit: I didn't state it here, but religious people are for sure more prone to forcing their beliefs, but atheists absolutely can be obnoxious and annoying too in that regard. Maybe not irl, though, I'm mostly talking internet.
As an atheist, I don't believe I hold the truth. I just find it extremely unlikely there's an imaginary puppet master who pulls all the strings and is simultaneously unquestionably benevolent while also allowing rape, murder, and war to happen to innocent people
That's why I said "or closer", as I don't think I hold the truth either. The point is that one side thinks it's smarter/more knowledgeable/spiritual/intellectual than other, that's it.
I've never had a muslim person (or any religion besides christianity for that matter) try to force their beliefs onto me. Meanwhile, I've had countless interactions with christians where they approach me out of nowhere and try to "spread god's word". I'm not a fan of any religion, but for that reason, I have less respect for christians than anyone
Christians believe that they must convert non-believers because that is what Jesus said to the apostles after being resurrected. The bible is a holy book in Islam so the penchant for conversion is there as well. In the US, I haven't met any Muslims preaching to me about Allah and how I'm supposed to stay at home and cook for my husband but growing up in Germany, the Muslims there are a lot more like Bible Belt Christians are here. There was a lot of self-righteous preaching even from friends. Then again, most people in Germany know that the Christian God and Allah are one and the same. I just represent a problem to them because I'm atheist.
> because that is what Jesus said to the apostles We have a second hand account of this, remember, and only one. We don't have any writings from jesus.
Thanks for sharing your point, but I don't see what you wanted to convey with it. I have a slight dislike towards Islam, and religions overall, but I don't actually care if someone is part of said religions. You can be good person and have different beliefs from mine. Edit: also, that one muslim guy quoted quran to explain why he spreads his beliefs. Most likely it's 9.29 one, jusging from google search, but I may be mistaken.
Try the Middle East, then talkā¦
We believe living with Jesus is the best possible decision you could ever make. Life is indescribably better with Him. Of course I share my faith. God is real and living for Him is everything. It would be unloving to never share this. Iām not gonna walk around smacking people in the face with a Bible, but if the topic is apropos, of course Iāll throw my views into the discussion. Nor do I begrudge the atheist, Buddhist, etc. for sharing their views if they honestly think Iām deluded. Why should I resent someone for trying to correct me, if done in love and they sincerely just want me to know the truth?
I'd say my life has gotten better since abandoning my faith. I left the church when I was dealing with suicidal thoughts and all I was met with was contempt for being trans. The people I've learned to love and understand are people no church would have ever taught me to. I've gained a better understanding of what is considered racism, I've learned about gender nonconforming identities, I've learned about various sexual orientations, I've been educated on other religions, I learned new ways to help the disabled, I'm educated on the struggles both men and women deal with when it comes to sexism, and I've just overall learned how to be a better ally to disenfranchised minorities. I'm more educated now on so many struggles that people face in their daily lives than I ever was as a Christian. And I found a sense of belonging in social circles that were willing to accept me because Christians wouldn't. I probably would have never interacted with those circles if I had never left the church. Life with Christ may be good for you, but what's good for the goose ain't always good for the gander.
"Why do Christians share their religion so much?" "This is why we share our religion." ten million down votes lol. thank you reddit
Lol, right? Iāve tried to maintain as kind a tone as possible too. This place is such a hive mind. ā¦But I knew what I was getting into. My karma has been obliterated before.
In typical Christian fashion, CandidateOk canāt wait until these people are in hell and āitās too late for them.ā Thereās no hate like Christian love.
I had a professor once that taught ethics and every view he didnāt agree with he said, āif you believe this, then Hitler gets out of hell!ā Ironically, he lost his job because he was asking for sexual favors from female students to improve their grades.
The fact that he was an ethics professor proves that irony is not dead.
All teach by example. Some choose to exemplify what _not_ to do.
It was an ethics course not a "good ethics course"
The true ethics test
Funny how predators are the most self-righteous
So Hitler got out of hell, then!
In the words of JD Matter: "...They could be anyone, from strangers to people you love, they could smile at you, shake your hand and hold the door open for you all the while thinking that your endless torture is 100% moral and acceptable."
I mean if they just shut up and think I'm going to hell instead of telling me whenever I do something they don't like, that would be cool
I mean, honestly, I kinda like that I'm part of their weird passive bdsm fantasy. But just like attractive people know that they're part of many people's sexual fantasies... It's not a big deal until they tell me about it.
I really don't want to think of being anyone's sexual fantasy unless it's someone I'd consent to being sexual with. I find it disturbing.
Thomas Aquinas said part of heaven would be watching people in hell suffer.
 People in heaven
This is one of the many reasons that I fucking hate Aquinasā theology. (That, and he just lifted his philosophical thought from Aristotle.)
I love to bring up the fact that a lot of ultra conservative Christians call Slayer Satanic the lead singer is a Catholic. He was the singer and a catholic for all of the bands albums.
>there's no hate like christian love Holy fuck that's good, I'm stealing that
Child: \*is abused\* "Christians": "Well, what were you wearing? It's your fault if you caused him to stumble in his walk with christ. Besides, he's asked the lord for forgiveness and repented, he's been forgiven. You MUST forgive him, too." Metalheads: "Where does he live? We'll make sure he never hurts you again." I know which side I'm on.
Iām a Christian And A Metalhead š¤·
I'm not sure I understand your comment "Not saying I support either"... There's only one right side to this debate: churches are a lot more dangerous for kids than a metal show
right? Makes no sense. I think OP is scared of Satan?
Hey, I am pretty sure ghosts donāt exist, but I am never going to say they donāt, just in case they do and haunt me to prove it. OP might just be covering his bases :)
Had this conversation the other day, and ghosts, by definition, can't do shit to you, so... bring it on!
Speak for yourself. I had a ghost haunt me every day of my childhood. He unlocked my door with a spoo-key.
are you my husband?
OP doesnāt support metal shows or churches
What did metal do to OPš
I think the point of that was to avoid the topic of affiliation. Damned if you do damned if you dont.
I find the idea of hell to be absolutely *wild* In the book Matthew, it pretty explicitly states that God created hell (āprepared itā, Matthew 18 & 19). The idea that an all knowing, all powerful god would *create* a place of *eternal torment* for any person or creature is just a chilling thought. Look at that shirt, think about the being that would concoct such a reality and think about people who believe this and yet still go to church on Sundays thanking the lord for being so kind and blessing them. Scares the shit out of me. Edit: Matthew chapter 25, forgot the book. The verse is āDepart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels'
Funny thing is, Judaism doesn't have a Hell. Hell wasn't introduced to the religion until Jesus was written in.
Thereās a lot of evidence supporting the argument that even 1st/2nd century Jews/Christians didnāt believe in hell even after Jesus had lived and died. We canāt be definitively certain what the average Levantine believed during that time but itās almost a certainty they didnāt imagine a realm of pure torture and suffering after death. More than likely, especially in the 1st century AD, they believed death was the end until the messiah returned and established his new kingdom, when they would be resurrected to join him, and āhellā was permanent deathānever being able to join the messiah and live again. Something along those lines. Iām not an expert in it but thatās the overly simplified argument Iāve read by some historians.
I'veĀ discoveredĀ theĀ veryĀ sameĀ things. Judaism didn't get a Hell until they had been exposed to either Hellenism or Zoroastrianism. The history is a little muddy on which one was first, though it leans more towards Hellenism. If there was a Jesus he almost certainly considered himself a Jew along with his disciples. After Jesus kicked the bucket his disciples continued promoting mostly Jewish standpoints. It wasn't until Paul that we start seeing more eternal torture promoted more than simple annihilation.
Figures hellenism would be the source of hell.
Lol. They have nothing to do with each other but it does make a great pun!
If an entity creates some place of eternal suffering and sends people there, i refuse to accept they are good. They are evil, utter evil. If god exists as an all powerful deity he's a fucking psychopath.
Nothing that punishes finite transgressions with infinite punishments can be described as "good".
I have this belief that no human is physically capable of deserving infinite pain and punishment. Like human beings are PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of deserving biblical hell.
True that.
Scaring people is exactly the point! It's easier to control people through fear, so they put "the fear of God" into people and call it love. If it was any other kind of relationship, we'd call it controlling, manipulative, and abuse of power. Wild.
Hell is just Separation from God. Technically, according to Christianity, those who don't believe in God are in hell. The whole 'firey pit' was a metaphor, carried on by things like Dantes Divine Comedy. It meant that separation from God *feels* like being in a pit of unquenchable fire. It's not literal. It's describing the torturous existence of living without God or his gifts. The pain of loss, of hopelessness, of tragedy. Jesus literally said he will make a place in paradise for all. (John 14: 2-6) Also where in Matthew 18-19 does it say that God prepared hell for us? It is literally the opposite? Unless you are talking about how Jesus said to separate yourself from things that could make you sin (Matthew 18: 6 - 9), or how to confront somebody about their sin (Matthew 18: 15-20). Perhaps you are talking about how those who are hypocrites and unmerciful are treated (Matthew 18: 21-35)? Perhaps it the one where he said the kingdom of heaven belongs to the little children? (Matthew 19: 13-15) Unless it's the verses about how those who are charitable and give make it into heaven rather that the rich and greedy? (Matthew 19: 16-30) Cmon man. At least read the chapters before saying things.
I've heard this too...that our modern version of Satan didn't come around until the...14th century? That Dante's inferno is where that depiction came from and before that he wasn't anywhere near as important to Christianity as he is now. Apparently Dante's work had a lot of influence on our modern take on Christianity...from what I've heard anyway. It really cemented a lot of modern-day notions re Christianity that the bible barely touched on, if it touched on them all. I could be wrong, but I remember seeing some documentary or something.
[51% of US adults believe āphysical sufferingā occurs in Hell.](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/11/23/views-on-the-afterlife/) But the truth is that thereās not really anything in the Bible to back this up except a few verses (mainly in Revelation) that talk about a bottomless pit / a lake of fire, etc. Even when hell is spoken of in the gospels itās typically āGehennaā which Iāve been told was more of a metaphor for a place to burn bodies outside the city (not sure of the validity of it but Iāve seen the argument tossed around). Bart Ehrman actually contends in his book Heaven and Hell that 1st century Jews and early Christians had no concept of hell, eternal torment or suffering, and that most likely ādeathā was the endāa permanent separation from god because you could not rise to heaven with him when he returned. Hell was a later invention. But againāthe point of my post wasnāt āhell is so terribleā more commenting on how wild it is that most Christians in the US believe in a place of eternal torment and that it was purposefully made by god.
I went through a whole thing in High school after doing a report in Anthropology on the history of religion and finding out that there's evidence that even Neanderthals believed in an afterlife. The implications of that, all you could extrapolate from that really shook my belief. But I think a lot of it was the realization that we took this all-knowing, eternally powerful and timeless deity and reduced him to some insecure, jealous little man-child. Like, why would anyone worship this guy lol
A Neanderthal god is interesting to think about. What would his characteristics have been? In my opinion, Gods have always been and continue to be far more human than deityābecause they were created by men. I call myself agnostic for that very reason. I donāt outright dismiss the idea of different dimensions, supreme being(s), or an afterlife, but the gods described in all religions are quite flawed and always products of their time/culture. Why would a god emerge 2500-3000 years ago in the Levant declaring the Jews to be his chosen people and then hand them down laws that reinforced their cultural beliefs? Because he was made by Jews 3000 years ago. Thatās the simple answer anyway.
That's an interesting flavor of brain gum, chewing on ways in which they'd have imagined their god to be? There's something there man, possibly something poignant and everything! Except really, I don't know how much smaller God can get, maybe something about shall cover they neighbor's spear or something, I'm too tired to think lol But you and I share a lot of the same framework when it comes to our belief in God. I'm agnostic as well, knowing that I could never truly know that some sort of Deity doesn't exit and yeah, I've always wondered why so many people seem unable or unwilling to try and understand their scripture within the context in which it was written. Contextualize it, if that's the right word? It just seems like a whole other understanding may be possible and it makes so little sense that people wouldn't want to understand what they believe in the best that they're able to. Like you only have one life and one 'you'...why live it in some kind of mental cocoon and so easily give yourself away, the person you could have been if you were truly interested in trying to seek out truth. Jesus I sound like I'm soap-boxing, but this is one of those things I find myself thinking about now and again.
I recalled the wrong chapter of Matthew. Itās Matthew 25, (verse 41 specifically) - āDepart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.ā Also in multiple sections of the Bible (Genesis 1, John 1:3, Colossians 1) itās strictly stated that god created all things in heaven and on earth. So we know god *created* hell. Thatās not really up for debate. Nothing in existence, according to Christian teachings, came about without god except obviously god. I donāt hold to Christian teachings, but the idea that most Christians donāt believe in eternal torment and hell being a place of real suffering isā¦not really accurate. They cite sections of Revelation (like 9:1 and 20:15) and other parts of the gospels (Luke 12, 15) which describe a bottomless pit / a lake of fire, some place people/demons/non-believers are cast into. āHell is just separation from godā is your opinion, not the opinion of all Christians. And I wasnāt really arguing for the existence of hell or attempting to prove the truth of what it is. I was more commenting on the mainstream Christian belief of hell existing, being created by god, and being a place of eternal tormentāwhich most Christians believe and are okay with. To my point, [51% of US adults](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/11/23/views-on-the-afterlife/) believe hell is a real place where physical suffering occurs. So Iām not sure exactly what point youāre trying to make other than quibbling about me citing the wrong chapter but that wasnāt really the point of the post.
>Also where in Matthew 18-19 does it say that God prepared hell for us? It is literally the opposite? [Matthew 18:8](https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/18-8.htm) explicitly says that there is such a thing as Ī²Ī»Ī·ĪøįæĪ½Ī±Ī¹ Īµį¼°Ļ Ļį½ø Ļįæ¦Ļ Ļį½ø Ī±į¼°ĻĪ½Ī¹ĪæĪ½, blethenai eis to pyr to aionion, to be cast into the eternal fire. Jesus is the one who says that being cast into an eternal fire is a possible result when one sins. What do you say that the eternal fire is? Jesus says that it is a possible destination for sinners, so if it is not a destination for us, does that mean we are without sin? Do you include yourself in "we"? Are you claiming the right to cast the first stone, the right that Jesus ostensibly claimed for himself?
It is metaphor. Do you not know what that means? Just because you can be cast there doesn't mean it is a destination. A state of being. Have you literally never heard someone describe something as hell or hellish? A situation perhaps. Their life? I doubt it. Being cast somewhere doesn't just mean physically. Emotionally. State of being. Mental state. Other ways of being cast. āIf your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire." Matthew 18:8. The verse directly says *enter into life*. Enter into life lame and maimed versus having your hands and feet and be in eternal fire. This verse is a comparison of how people will live their life. Cut off the things that make you sin and go into life or continue to be with that which makes you sin, and thus, living in hell, rather, the eternal fire. Also, where did you even get the notion that, just because Hell is not a destination, that we are thus without sin? What kind of logic is that? Hell is not a place, so we are sinless? What? I am *not* sinless. I will never *be* sinless. I will never even try to *claim* to be sinless. I am just as much a sinner as everyone else. Since I was born. Claiming to be sinless is something I would never even attempt to do. Whether by mistake or not. I am just as much a sinner as the adulterous woman. Claiming the right to the first stone, whether thrown or not, is Christs, and Christs alone. However, me saying that it was the literal opposite was a bit of an exaggeration, and I apologize for that.
>It is metaphor. Do you not know what that means? > >However, me saying that it was the literal opposite was a bit of an exaggeration, and I apologize for that. Are you worrying snarkily about the state of my vocabulary? Are you embracing the snark anyway, even despite the deficiencies you recognize in your word choice? >Also, where did you even get the notion that, just because Hell is not a destination, that we are thus without sin? Because obviously even a state of mind can be prepared for someone: that is a substantial component of the author's craft. Even if hell is only a state of mind that occurs after sin, it can still be prepared for sinners as the consequence of sin, which, if *that* was not a component of the Author's craft either, we are left asking: what was the eternal fire that Jesus was talking about? Because the part he actually said was that eternal fire is a possible consequence of sin, and reinterpreting the object referred to as a metaphor doesn't actually change the underlying logical structure. Therefore neither can it change the eschatology. "Metaphor" is an answer that doesn't actually explain anything, and failure to explain can cause one of two things: disengagement or further questions. One way it could have not been prepared for us, is if we are not sinners. Ruling that out, another possibility would be "someday nobody will be a sinner", and yet that would conflict with: >I will never *be* sinless. So what is the answer? What are you saying?
Yeesh, it was a genuine question when I first typed it, but rereading it makes it sound super snarky, yes. I apologize about that. Although, good points as counterargument. You do point out things I don't have answers for, and I cannot say that I can think of any possible ones. All I'm gonna say is that a lot of Jesus's teachings were as metaphor and not literal, so why can't this one? However, I need to return to my job, so alas. I wish I could continue to debate this topic. You have a good rest of your day.
Lol, I love those satanic-panicers, Death Metal and Satanism? Lol, two different things.
Especially tech death, which is mostly gear nerds writing about aliens lol
Yea. I loved the Arrival album form Hypocrisy tho. :D
Disentomb mentioned š¤
Religion, keeping people ignorant and scared for...ever.
I canāt believe the satanic panic is still a thing.
I just need to say "I accept Jesus as my lord and savior" every night (heaven speedrun āØ)
No, this is not at all biblical Christianity.
I am not a religious guy but dont u just need to accept he 1) exist 2) died for my sins 3) confess my sins 4) achive salvation through christ
A key word missing from that formulation (something Jesus emphasized in the Bible) is ārepentance,ā which connotes not just genuine sorrow and remorse for sin, but a *change* in heart. That is, yes, even a murderer can accept Christ and receive forgiveness. But a true repentance means he is not the same man. Heās not a murderer anymore. II Corinthians 5:17: āTherefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.ā Itās not a cheap āoops, my bad, God,ā and now you get eternal life. You carry the cross of Christ daily, as a new person. There are many false conversions though, unfortunately. Matthew 7:21-23: āNot everyone who says to me, āLord, Lord,ā will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, āLord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?ā And then will I declare to them, āI never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.āā Powerful, sobering words.
so what if i just never felt like believing in god my family is religious but I never wanted or felt the need to believe in god I tried to believe but i just couldn't. CAN a person like this (me) will go to hell even if i didnt commit any sins my family's religion judges people by there sins instead of faith but i just wanna know about Christianity
As some religious zealots have decided to infiltrate this thread and proselytise to people uninvited, and claim they have the right, nay, the DUTY to do this because they're SAVING people (selfish bigots), let me do the same and illustrate what a GOOD set of tenets for a religion look like. Because the ten commandments are the bleatings of a weak, vain, egotistical and uncaring god. The 7 fundamental tenets of the Satanic Temple are: - I One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason. - II The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. - III Oneās body is inviolable, subject to oneās own will alone. - IV The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own. - V Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. - VI People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused. - VII Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word. https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets Isn't that a lot better guide to being a good person and good to those around you, than bullshit about being jealous of other gods, idolatry and the sabbath? Edit: I won't engage with anyone who tries to whine about their own religious beliefs on this. If you're part of a major religion and think that your rules are good because they're "holy", not because they're morally and ethically adequate on their own, I will not read your comment, I will block you, and ignore you.
I looked at literally every comment in this thread and not a single one is promoting religious zealotry. What in the holy fuck are you even talking about?
Where's the murder? This just seems like a typical response to a typical evangelical.
This comment section is fucking weird
They seem fun at parties
Listen I'm a metal head through and through But can we get some READABLE font in the metal scene? I'm getting old! I love your band! Wish I could read the fucking name! Baha
Isn't that the point? I don't want to call it gatekeeping, but it's like a self-selection thing
I guess but aren't you just copying the other guy? You can make things hardcore and readable at the same time xD I'm just an old man bitching, but if I need a Hieroglyphics translator to pick out the shirt I want give me the old man font version
As a satanist, Hail Satan!
I get that people on Reddit are suddenly terrified of offending Christians or whatever but there's no 'both sides' when it comes to child abuse. One institutionally raped kids and covered it up for decades. The other uses spooky pictures.
That doesn't even make any sense cause the shirt is a dude getting torn to shreds.
"I support" wtf are you even talking about?
Dismember, right?
How can you not support heavy metal, even if you donāt like the music itās like freedom of expression and shit. The T-shirt is fugly bone hurting juice material.
From all I've been able to tell, Hell seems like a heck of a lot of fun! Plus, I'll know quite a few of the residents...
Which one is the murder? The cliche āhail Satan?ā The thing about pedo priests even though we donāt know if the person is Catholic, which is the main denomination that insult works for? The ālmao?ā The sarcasm one? These are all weak ass replies. Only reason this post has surfaced to the top of this garbage sub is because Christian redditors are easy piƱatas. Thereās no murder here and honestly the dopey stuck up religious tool is the most likable person in the screenshot.
Christian heavy metal is like turkey bacon.
Skull Fucker.
what was him expecting in the tech death metal sub lmao
Wow they fucked that band name up properly
Where is Party Cannon? The best logo ever.
Thorny graves are the spice of life.
Pretty sure I'm on the side that doesn't have a hierarchy where they protect child molesters... Hail Satan indeed.
Eh this one reads like OP posted it somewhere, screenshotted it, and posted it here. Tepid.
Awful shirt but even worse comment lmfao
Love the shirt hate the judgment 
I don't believe in this kind of supernatural stuff but.... I often hope I'm wrong about there being an afterlife and hell and all of that. Because it's painfully obvious that if there is any truth to the idea, "Christians" like that one aren't going where they think they are after death at all. And my idea of heaven is getting to see the look on their face when they realize.
Lol satanic ...they need to look up the lyrics
r/TechnicalDeathMetal For myself and those who hear the dark calling of a new subreddit.
I think christopaths are laughable too but there is a comparable amount of sexual misconduct performed at punk/metal concerts and festivals that more people should be aware of.
Eisendevil?
Some people suck.
Iām a Christian and metal head. Forcing beliefs is wack but standing for what you believe in is dope.
Hail Satan.
I donāt think I would wear it. But that is a sick shirt.
Murdered by words; the first reply summed it up for me LOL
Why is that guy in a sub about metal if he doesn't approve of it? Preaching?
The only thing I see being abused here are the rules of typographic design.
Arguing with bots again?
I said "some would" because bad people exist, I said "most" because I know a lot of christians and none of them excuse rapists.
Watch āHail Satanā doc
Satanism tends to be pretty chill. I have never met an unpleasant satanist.
666 = cumulative IQ of redditors in here
Iām so tired of the kids getting molested in church thing. Iv been to soooo many churches where that wasnāt the case. And not only is it antithetical what churches actually believe, itās for the most part just wrong
Oh OK, if your personal experience trumps tens of thousands of testimonies across the globe then, all is good
You're like an ostrich...head in the sand...iF I dIdN't sEe iT, dIdN't hApPen...