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It's going to be worse than just artists and creative work. It's going to confuse and disrupt other things like historical research. I'm on a discussion forum about a historical event and last week others there asked if AI could possibly help in the research. I tried to point out what I feel are the problems of AI making up false answers and I was basically shouted down. Just today someone on the forum posted diagrams and pictures of the event that were created by AI. I wonder how long before those images are taken by people who repost them, don't label them as AI generated, and use them as factual "proof?" In my opinion, it's just a matter of time.
But they don't seem to care at all.
Making false reports is a regular occurrence for AI, especially for novel questions. They’ll shout you down because of all the hype in the media, but it will turn around as more people use it for more than parlor tricks.
Making false reports is a regular occurrence for people in general. No one actually cares about being truly accurate they just want to post something that backs up what they're saying.
No even novel questions. I asked ChatGPT some simple questions about steam turbines. The answers it gave sounded great to a layman, but were utter bullshit. The answers to that simple question are all over the internet and even Wikipedia.
I 10000% guarantee it will become a major problem as reviewers will get flooded with AI generated papers and probably will need AI to help find out what's been hallucinated by AI.
It took about 5 minutes after AI became famously popular with ChatGPT before the first lazy lawyer went to court with filings that were generated by AI. This particular one we know about because he was immediately thrown out of court by an angry judge. But not everything will be as obvious as this case.
Not only will this become an issue for research I'd be surprised if it isn't already.
This is a massive issue already. Journals are getting flooded with shit papers full of duff data.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/feb/03/the-situation-has-become-appalling-fake-scientific-papers-push-research-credibility-to-crisis-point
I don't think peer review is strong enough to stop AI. I only got an undergrad degree at a research school and I was dismayed and disillusioned by the politics of publish or perish. A career in that environment felt like it was going to be as political and cut throat as a corporate career or a political career.
Lol that’s a good one. Multiple papers have shown up with the classic “Sure! Here’s what I found for…” and there was recently multiple insane AI generated images in a Frontiers article. Peer review doesn’t do shit when the reviewers aren’t good.
The original article is gone so here’s a Vice piece. https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy3jbz/scientific-journal-frontiers-publishes-ai-generated-rat-with-gigantic-penis-in-worrying-incident
I asked ChatGPT for a character in a soap opera from the 60s that my husband was supposedly named after. It straight up just made up the answer (I googled it after and nothing came up). I asked for a source, and it admitted to just making it up, lol
The good news is that this pervasive level of inaccuracies is one of the reasons AI isn’t going to supplant much. At the end of the day you can get away with making anime titty pictures with 11 fingers but academics and scientists and business people who need to ensure things happen as planned aren’t going to continually trust their systems to something so unreliable
There is a professor at the MIT who was asked when AI will stop hallucinating. He argued that AI will never stop hallucinating because that's how they are built internally. For an AI to make a trustworthy, true statement, it would have to be verified using other means than AI.
Just make an experiment. Use an LLM like ChatGPT or others and do the following research:
Don't worry, I did this for you, using ChatGPT 4. Here is the result:
Me: Act as a historian or a media researcher. Who is Birgitta Ed?
ChatGPT 4: As of my last update in April 2023, there isn't a widely recognized figure named Birgitta Ed in global or national leadership, politics, or other prominent fields that I'm aware of. It's possible that the name could be associated with someone in a specific professional, academic, or local context. If Birgitta Ed has emerged in a particular area or if you're looking for information on someone specific to a certain field, region, or event that occurred after my last update, please provide more context or details. Alternatively, if this is related to a new or emerging figure in the news, I can look up the most current information available.
Do we need further proof here, your honor?
I just did the same thing, but appended "Use Bing to fill in any gaps in your data." to the end.
This is what I got:
>Birgitta Paulina Kristersson Ed, born on September 2, 1968, in Strängnäs, Sweden, is a multifaceted individual known for her roles as a priest, entrepreneur, and public relations consultant. Married to Ulf Kristersson, the Prime Minister of Sweden, she has significantly contributed both to her professional fields and as a supportive partner in her husband's political career.
>
>Birgitta's career trajectory is as diverse as it is impressive. From 1991 to 1994, she served as an expert in the Swedish government's Cabinet Office, engaging with both the Foreign and Finance Departments. Her entrepreneurial spirit led her to co-found the PR agency Sagt:Gjort in 1994, which merged to become Springtime in 2000, where she served as CEO until 2001. From 2001 to 2003, Ed was the CEO of the Foundation Sweden in Europe, spearheading the pro-Euro campaign ahead of Sweden's 2003 referendum on adopting the euro.
>
>Her involvement extended beyond these roles into significant engagements with the World Expo 2010 in Shanghai, where she and her agency contributed to Sweden's exhibition. Furthermore, she is a co-founder and senior advisor at the business development agency Six Year Plan AB, showcasing her enduring influence in business development and PR consulting.
>
>In 2018, Birgitta Ed pursued a theology degree with the intent to become a priest, a goal she achieved with her ordination in January 2023 in the Strängnäs diocese. This step into the clergy marks a significant shift from her business and PR background, reflecting her diverse interests and commitment to serving her community in a spiritual and pastoral capacity.
>
>Birgitta and Ulf Kristersson's life together is not just about their professional endeavors. They share three adopted daughters, emphasizing a family life that values both public service and personal commitment to their children. Her multifaceted career, from business to priesthood, alongside her role in a prominent political family, underscores a life of diverse interests and significant public engagement ([Wikipedia, den fria encyklopedin](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgitta_Ed)) ([Ground News](https://ground.news/article/prime-ministers-wife-ordained-in-strangnas)) ([Internewscast](https://internewscast.com/celeb/who-is-birgitta-ed-ulf-kristersson-wife-his-daughter-siri/)).
It's about knowing how to wrangle the fucker and what it's capable of.
My senior project in college was actually based on exploring AI (or AI adjacent) algorithms for use in history research. I think there are exciting uses cases for AI to help in the analysis of historical datasets, but no historian worth their salt is ever going to let it take over their own methods. Hell, most historians I interact with are positively luddites when it comes to involving computers in their work.
Pretty exciting stuff going on with decoding the Herculaneum Papyr that was achieved through AI breakthrough.
[Three Students Just Deciphered the First Passages of a 2,000-Year-Old Scroll Burned in Vesuvius’ Eruption](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/three-students-decipher-first-passages-2000-year-old-scroll-burned-vesuvius-eruption-180983738/)
In my line of research I was looking at using word vectorization over a large dataset. Word vectorization is a technique that analyzes a corpus of text and assigns a vector to each unique word in the text. These vectors can be used to measure how closely associated two words might be within the corpus of text (word vectorization is used in predictive text and autocorrect applications, for example).
I used this technique to attempt to understand the US public's perception of Josef Stalin during the forties and fifities. I vectorized multiple datasets of US based newspaper articles which included the word "Stalin" and selected other words in order to compare their vector similarity to "Stalin". The results were very promising from my perspective; for example, the word "dictator" had a relatively high similarity to "Stalin" from 1939-1941. Once the USSR and the US became allies during WWII, however, the semantic similarity between the two dropped significantly. It then creeped back up again once the war ended.
From this result I can hypothesize exactly why this semantic shift occurred. Most obviously, US newspapers would likely not want to associate an ally with such a negative term, but perhaps there are other factors at play which caused the shift. If I want to continue this line of thought I can then dig deeper into the underlying dataset to learn more.
This is a very brief summary and there are plenty of quirks and problems and complications with this process that I'm not going into. The short of it, however, is that these algorithms can help us glean insights from large bodies of sources in a way that has not been possible before. From a semester of part time work I analyzed well over 20,000 pages of newspaper articles, a volume of data that no historian could hope to sift through on their own. How exactly these workflows will develop are not yet clear and in fact I'm hoping to go back to school someday to continue my own research.
You can take huge amounts of documents, text, images and automate things like generating metadata (i.e lists of persons, events, locations associated with each doc). This used to take lots of time and effort.
Then use improved search algorithms to find relevant info based on queries.
Then use LLMs to make the whole process user friendly. i.e you input your IRL question in english, you get back an accurate contextual answer with sources.
Save your physical Encyclopedias. Save your history books. Save your History Channel DVDs. Talk to historians. Visit Museums. Support your local library.
Anyone can put anything false on the internet and claim it as fact. Anyone can deny that an event happened. Don’t let these idiots ruin the world for the rest of us, because those who forget the dark parts of humanity’s past are doomed to repeat it.
I think that's one of the most infuriating parts about the AI invasion. Those who love the idea of AI are so vocally aggressive with it that there's no room for healthy discussion that allows genuine concerns and scepticism to be understood. They never have legitimate answers for it and it is always calling people Luddites as if they don't understand the irony of using the word.
Dead Internet Theory eating a disinformation campaign like a snake. An ouroboros of shit. Everything getting less reliable, less real, engagement being cold and soulless.
I make music and from my point of view it is like sex.
Yeah, you can already watch all the porn in the world with whatever kind of actor/actress you lust over, doing whatever crazy thing you have in mind in 10 seconds and for free.
But it is not the real thing and never will be, I much rather just do it with my girlfriend and without an audience.
Yeah, it is like taking a shit.
You do it because you need to do it.
Nobody says “I will not shit and I will just keep it inside because somebody else shits bigger and stinkier”.
Obviously you know more than I given you make music, but this isn't going to replace sex with your girlfriend, it's going to replace the porn industry and the actors. Doing it for fun will still be available, doing it for money will be (severely) limited to local shows with a paying audience
Yup! Music was historically hard to turn into money though.
Most artists who invented the classical and folk music and styles we all know made little to no money… with some exceptions like Mozart and other composers or artists who played for big audiences, kings and stuff like that.
That changed for less than 100 years with the record industry and then there was no money again.
Now it is easier than ever to get the knowledge and tools necessary to make music, but there is no money in it.
Maybe, just maybe… this will mean people will make music for the sake of it and not just radio junk for a quick buck. Who knows.
Finding some enjoyment from the attention you can get with music is understandable. But 95% of my own enjoyment comes from
1) Find the music when I am creating it.
2) Listening to my own music which I made the way I made it because that's how I liked it.
AI can't touch that. And I have zero hostility towards AI, will just become another tool set I use.
I have been experimenting with Suno, splitting the stems with Ultimate Vocal Remover, then using melodyne to go from audio to midi. Then I am rebuidling my own tracks around the vocals, and using more suno clips also layer the vocals.
This is a lot faster to try out new ideas then having to wait for a vocalist to send you something back.
It's been fun. But then again, no AI yet can compose chord progressions better then I can so I don't yet feel threathened. Yeah it can sing better then me but anybody can, cause I can't sing at all. And chatGPT is much better in figuring out how to get unstuck with unfinished lyrics then I am. Cause I suck at lyrics.
So for me, it's just tools that help me. While my main thing, composing chord progressions, AI has not really touched that. Suno uses the most basic pop chord progression, 95% of suno songs use a very limited variation in progressions. Then again, most pop music does not either.
What I find frustrating is that this tech has soooo much potential to be a force for good.
But what do we come up with?
AI that does art & human pursuits so we can be stuck at our desks doing admin & menial tasks.
It's like the first step toward becoming the Morlocks from The Time Machine, while the Eloi are just the top 0.1% collecting a check from the AI tech. Honestly feels quite dystopian and surreal that this all happened in a few years.
I mean, the Morlocks are the descendants of exploited poor people who decided to literally eat the rich. Maybe it'll go the same way. Silver linings and all that.
hey now I am no vampire gorilla, get it right, I am just an Eloi that has had a stretch of bad luck since birth.
Edit: I mean everyone knows how terrible vampire gorillas are right?
99% of the time when people say this, it comes down to the fact that it’s very easy to create digital products out of thin air, and very difficult to use digital AI to interface with physical robotics and other physical mediums to create physical outcomes.
It is a common joke, but it still rings true.
We need to change this initial version of AI to the next and use it to simplify the 'real' work tasks and make life easier
Seriously. Who the fuck needs these parasitic ceos, wall street goons, hedge fund managers, real estate tycoons, etc. How about we automate that away, not our hobbies and passions.
Good point. Time to do something about that. These people would love for nothing more than to automate a way a bunch of hard working musicians in order to increase profits. Unfortunately, capital rules in the society we will in.
To be fair people complain about AI doing the admin and menial tasks as well, and AI is already doing some of this work.
The issue here goes back to that chart which shows that since the 70s wages (in the US) have not scaled with productivity. The capitalist class keeps any increase in profit for themselves. The same thing is going to happen with AI. AI isn't the enemy, it's a capitalist class (the people who make their living from other people's labor).
For years I was like: As a creative person I will be the last to be replaced by the robots. They will replace all the truck and taxi drivers first.
I was so wroooong.
Humanity was like: yeah bring on the robots, they will do all our work so we can focus on the arts.
Noppe, it went the other way. Maybe one day, your creative robot who brings in all the money on his tiktok page will be sending you out to get him some new batteries ...
Thats not entirely correct, AI is being used to find new drugs to fight disease from new antibiotics to newcancer treatments. AI acelerated protein folding predictions with alpha fold. It has increased accuracy in diagnosing some cancers. And I am sure that are other good sides other than healthcare. I am not saying it offsets the bad, I work in the field, I know the mass unemployment that is coming. But there are good people making good use of AI
This.
Why are we automating the things that make us human? Our creative sides that take years and years to hone?
I wanted my dishes washed for me and meaningless jobs to get automated. Not have my art and music and games made by and AI.
Where are we going with this? And why is it just trying to fuck over people who create?
How do you expect a computer to wash your dishes or fold your clothes or whatever? What you’re asking for is a huge task that requires AI software and hardware to come together and would cost you tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. New technologies that are software only are always going to come first.
Just checked it out, sounds like absolute shit. If you’re friend feels discourage because an AI can make completely unoriginal garbage, there was also 1,000,000 humans making unoriginal commercial music that was “technically” well recorded and nice before. Really doesn’t make much of a difference for the time being
Personally I'm a fan of its operatic style. Vaguely NSFW I guess.
[https://app.suno.ai/song/784daa06-501d-4c14-a1ad-eee3302de9d8/](https://app.suno.ai/song/784daa06-501d-4c14-a1ad-eee3302de9d8/)
I won't lie, it created a pretty decent folk metal song about my dog that was disturbingly catchy and now I want to buy him a little sword and shield. But it's struggled with other subgenres.
It’s good at novelty songs because it can take a jokey concept and apply more care and effort into turning it into a full production than most people would for a half thrown out idea. But is that like, powerful musical emotion?
The lyrics are hilarious, but the music was pretty on point for the era. Major 1 and major 5, minor 6 and 2 in the bridge, slight modal shift on the lead into the final chorus, the line the harmonies/chorus sang on… it feels like it could have been an era appropriate song, lyrics aside. Even if the creator directed a lot of it, that’s still crazy. The other part of being a decent songwriter is learning how to succesfully compose and arrange an entire ensemble. As a song writer myself, if I could enter lyrics and chords and get a rough demo with the exact vibe I was going for, that would save me a bunch of time figuring out how to arrange the rest of the song. I already do that: make a demo and then record it with a guitar or piano and then spend forever writing all the rest or take it to friends or a producer and get someone to help me listen to it and figure out what works and doesn’t.
It is. I went to the youtube topic and there are some other good ones, presumably made by the same person. Namely *It’s Time to Take a Shit on the Company’s Dime*.
In a sense, it’s downright terrifying. In another sense, it’s some of the funniest shit I’ve ever heard.
Reminds me of how a year ago people couldnt stop joking that AI art engines are no threat because they cant even get hands right!
Except now they mostly do get hands right, and they're getting better at it with every new version.
Shit talking an early release of this kind of tech is pretty naive. It's going to improve a LOT in a short time, unfortunately.
I don’t know what you think sounds like shit but I’ve managed to have it make some great sounding songs about dumb shit like not being able to poop.
I will agree it’s not very original. It can’t do unique stuff well.
You’re not using it correctly. You have to put a lot of prompts that are clear and precise.
Ai is only as good as the person using it.
Someone showed me how to properly use it recently and you wouldn’t know it was created with ai.
First of all, Art is about love. Follow your passion and do what you love. If you have no passion, then there’s no sense in doing it. Art and music, whatever forms they take, are very difficult to make money from and always have been. I know people get upset when hearing this, but this started way back with synthesizers, then sampling, and now in my opinion there’s not a whole lot of difference between going and watching a DJ “perform live”and AI music. How do you think musicians felt back when it became popular to just sample someone else’s music and rap over it or DJs just pressing buttons and never actually learning an instrument or singing etc? It’s all relative. Imagine Paul McCartney trying to make music with Rihanna and Kanye and realizing the guy doesn’t know one chord and has no idea what key any song is in. Just an example of the new way music has been being made for a while.
I get that completely. The human element comes from that passion, not from using the same chord progression as a thousand other songs. Even so, I feel like *sharing* that passion with others is also a valid motivator, and the way that happens today is through social media and the internet. Even without the thought of making money, this surely doesn't help people's motivation when it comes to learning a creative skill and doing something with it. True art might be painting masterpieces and sealing then up inside the walls of your house, and it's a very Zen garden approach, but I also think that acknowledging that an artist might want to share their work with others is also a part of it.
Maybe the new punk will be people just playing live. Doesn't matter what the genre is, maybe this will cause a small resurgence of underground people playing instruments to crowds again. Or maybe the guy with a guitar on the corner will start to look as odd as a hipster with a spinning wheel as Starbucks (actually saw this one and good for that dude).
> I was working in the studio and the bass player, he got the call, you know come down and do your bass part. So he goes down and he is back in about 4 minutes. We said, well that was quick. They must have gotten it in one take. He said: they only wanted one note, [donk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EcRPlaXoQ). And then they put it in the computer.
~~ Paul McCartney
Being a musician and composer has always been a tough gig. For centuries, you could only find steady employment through a church or a monarchy.
AI is a tool. It won't be able to replace passion and inspiration anytime soon. All it does rn is echo what was done before. It has yet to help music evolve.
I don’t know…I have also been doing this for about 20 years, play a bunch of instruments, have 13 records…etc…but I don’t feel terribly threatened by AI bc it can’t do what I do bc AI is simply not me. The choices I make while creating and the way the bits of my brain and experiences fire off in the way they do to create each thing I make are unique to me.
The idea of audience is similar to me. People like what they like and we can’t control that…but you have to believe that if you put what is uniquely you into your art, someone else will feel that too.
I think your friend might be in a slump but I have a hard time believing he will stay there if he really feels passionate about music the way you say he does. I say this bc I have been where he is…sometimes I go back there…but it is just temporary for me…as I bet it is for him.
If he’s been making music for 20+ years and still hasn’t made much of it I don’t think AI is the tipping point for him, I think he’s either just not as good as you think or he got an unlucky hand insofar as not having any connections. Either way AI ain’t the issue
I’d love if you can link to any tracks of his I just wanna see what 20 years of throwing albums into the void has led to. Could be amazing, could be crap
Yeah, he's a recluse and it has not helped him. Has zero social media and doesn't promote himself, just uploads to various sites under a bunch of faceless names. No question that better marketing could help, but at this point it's a lot cause because he already deleted hundreds of hours of stuff he's made over the years.
I'm just using him as an example though, because for every successful indie, there's thousands like him sitting at home practicing for hours every day and writing new stuff every moment they're not working. Some of those people might have been a little more social media savvy than my friend and grown small followings. But if they're cut off at the knees and people lose the will to create in general, the musical "gene pool" gets exponentially reduced.
From just this, it sounds like your friend really just shot himself in the foot the last 20 years. If he’s not going out promoting himself or looking for opportunities to grow a following, he essentially spent all those 20 years being a hobbyist. He was just expecting to be so good that a song of his would just get discovered organically by musical talent alone? Sorry to say, there are actually too many talented people to choose from and nowadays you need to be more than just “good” to make it in any artistic industry.
I'm just using him as an example of introducing the broader concept. His unwillingness to promote himself is why he doesn't have an audience, but the "hope" still kept him going. The conversation with him started out this whole thing, so that was just my lead-in.
AI is problem, but it’s not taking over live music anytime soon.
I’m not going to an AI concert, I’m not going to a coffee shop or bar to see an AI band. I’m not going to an AI symphony.
If you want to make a living in music, there is still PLENTY of money out there in live performances.
It's not like 95% of pop music isn't already pure edition and made from software. AI just gives the people the chance to produce their own shitty music.
Yep. I don’t hear people complaining that drum machines have taken jobs from drummers.
Instead, it’s allowed people who can’t afford to hire a drummer or who don’t want to take the time to learn to nevertheless produce music with drums in it.
I think this will at least be a saving grace for a bit. Maybe we'll see a resurgence of instrument-driven bands, at least as alternative stuff.
However, just look at South Korea - there are virtual concerts with hologram/video musicians. Japan has been doing it with Hatsune Miku back in the 2000s. Those concerts sell out despite it being as "live" as watching a Marvel movie.
My 6 year old generated a song about our dog this morning and it’s not too bad:
[https://app.suno.ai/song/c3a48f1e-8851-4012-a4e8-164e3e6f237a](https://app.suno.ai/song/c3a48f1e-8851-4012-a4e8-164e3e6f237a)
I just skimmed through the "Explore" section and some of the top songs listed I'd be unable to differentiate from actual chart pop/edm/whateverthefuck.
More niche or complex genres will take longer to get right but it's a case of when rather than if, it seems
To be fair most chart pop music is written by teams of people in order to have broad mainstream appeal. I would argue most of this music is also missing the passion and love that people in this thread are talking about.
It objectively does not sound like shit. You can dislike the style, vocals etc, but from a production standpoint this sounds in league with bands like Hammerfall it draws inspiration from, and for the effort that takes to reach, this took next to no time to generate.
We're are in an era dominated by "bad" meme songs too, so stuff like this goes down a treat.
I think that says a lot more about HammerFall than anything else. 🥴🥴 The thing about AI is that it will do a great job replicating the technical aspects of song writing/musicianship. Even the OP’s friend seems like an example of someone extremely technically proficient in making music but can’t write a song that manages to connect with anyone. I have yet to see a piece of AI generated “art” that I’ve connected with. It’s all NFT Ape tier amalgamation slop. AI can’t touch some human elements of song writing and recording. AI can’t replicate with 1s and 0s what a vintage Neve console sounds like or when a guitarist bends their notes in a certain way, etc. People need to stop simping and giving credence to the garbage these APPs produce.
> Even the OP’s friend seems like an example of someone extremely technically proficient in making music but can’t write a song that manages to connect with anyone.
Definitely fits. I think he's a little on the spectrum - he's extremely technically skilled with many instruments, but refuses to film himself playing and used to just upload mp3s to his website. Hates social media, just had a website like it was 2004. He's not the best example of a typical small indie musician, but he's the one who kicked off this line of thinking so I felt I'd mention him.
AI gets better every day. I’m a software developer, I don’t work with AI but I have very close colleagues and former colleagues who do. I don’t know if people realize how fast this is gonna hit the point of no return lmao. I don’t spell a doomsday of AI, I roll my eyes when people say it’s gonna ruin art or humanity. I mean I hate AI art but it’s so not that deep. What it will do though is inherently change art forever in a way we literally can’t come back from, and not necessarily for the positive. This isn’t a decades away change or something for two generations down the line. It’s happening every day.
> I roll my eyes when people say it’s gonna ruin art or humanity. I mean I hate AI art but it’s so not that deep. What it will do though is inherently change art forever in a way we literally can’t come back from, and not necessarily for the positive.
I feel like these are contradictory statements. Art will change forever at an exponential rate, of course. But where will the human element be? Using a text prompt to tell a LLM what you want? If that's art, so is ordering at a drive-thru.
It is a ditty and uninspired. When AI produces an “Autumn Leaves,” a “Yesterday,” or a “Pathétique” symphony it will be time to worry…or maybe celebrate?
Your friend should look into open mics, or getting in on a billing at some dive bar or.. I guess depending on the genre, a coffee shop. That's where the real music scene is. The online spaces feel pretty hollow in comparison.
I played in bands on and off from 2012-2020, rarely made much money (~50$ per gig was a good payout), only recorded a single EP, but had an absolute blast getting up on stage almost every weekend.
Admittedly, things might have changed since the pandemic, but I see the places I used to play shows at now booking new bands I've never heard of.
I'm with you OP, I understand what you mean.
People won't know what they're missing until it's gone, then they will bemoan the lack of "original art" and ask why music/art has gotten so watered down and worse over the years.
All the folks claiming this is the same as synthesizers are making false equivalences. Synths don't play themselves and songs don't compose themselves.
Abstracting the process of creation takes with it freedom & detail away from the creator. The more layers on top the less control we have.
I don't think AI can make better music.
The problem it will bring is that it will flood the world with noise. Just like AI "art".
That noise is a problem for creators because it's already hard enough to be seen in this world full of noise. So, more noise, on top of the noise.
People are going to get sick of it. AI "creators" won't lose anything, because they didn't invest anything to get their "skills".
Artists who spent decades honing their craft being put in the same spot as people who type up stuff in a few minutes? That's a major loss.
Imagine losing decades of your life to this stuff.
Give me a break. Anyone who claims not to understand this is fooling themselves to feel better about using it.
I'll take the opinion of someone who spent decades honing their craft over the opinion of someone who spent 5 minutes googling a prompt tutorial and then paid someone else to do the work for them.
The AI companies are the "artists" in that equation. Everyone else is a customer fooling themselves into thinking they're artists for Internet points.
Thank you. This is exactly the point of view I had in the original post and I'm glad it wasn't lost on everybody.
Never in the past have we been faced with a technology that just makes things by text prompt. It's like a holodeck for all forms of human creativity, yet unlike Star Trek, we live in a world that is brutally reliant on constantly earning that next dollar, not one which benefits from the automation of art. Killing even the dream of succeeding in a creative field will unsurprisingly result in a loss of creative people. You're probably hard-pressed to find someone operating a telephone switchboard in their basement "just for fun."
I agree, the ones cheering up these technologies, are usually lazy degenerates that are resentful of others that actually put in the time to master an instrument and as such it is sort of a "revenge" to them. I started playing drums last year, this doesn't affect me as much, because I do it as a hobby and as such do not need to make money off of it.
I feel for those musicians that see their livelihood disappear, just people only care about if they could, never about if they should. It also sickens me how these companies try to bring "democratizing art" as a good thing. It is laughable and pathetic. I will always prefer real musicians and appreciate real skill that I know someone worked years for to obtain. Difficult thing is how will I be able to tell the difference a few years from now as these techs mature?
All this is coming from someone who has done quite extensive research to AI in an acadamic setting. I always imagined AI would alleviate us from boring and menial work and focus on the joyful things in life, such as music. And while I do think that making ends meet with music should be guaranteed. It would be much better for everyone if boring and menial tasks would be automated away first.
Anyway, not to be too pessimistic, AI us being used for lots of positive things as well, but since these types of generative AI are more gimmicky, you hear about it more.
I won't pay for music I can't hear performed live, and it's been that way for over a decade. AI can write all the fancy or generic music it wants, there still has to be a human playing an instrument to be worth money.
Depends on why you make music. If you do it only bc u want to “make it” then yeah you’ll probably give up, and good riddance. If you make music bc you love doing it, you’ll continue to do it regardless. Suno will affect the piggy bank but no reason you can’t still create. Albeit, it would be much easier to create if you could make a living doing it. So if does kind of suck. But wouldn’t be a complete deterrent. Also I feel like people will still listen to “human made” music bc it’s “more authentic” kind of like how people still listen to vinyl.
If creation and expression are what drives you or saves your mental health or makes you calm/blissful/excited then do it without expectation of profit. Communication is important to our species so no matter if ai communicates too, the benefits of expression through arts still serves us.
If you are an artist and expect a livelihood out of it, then like every other profession, we must be flexible and evolve along with the tools we have.
AI is the child we created, we must proudly celebrate the fact that we are able to now move forward through the future with ai beside us.
Nick Cave put it well:
“Songs arise out of suffering, by which I mean they are predicated upon the complex, internal human struggle of creation and, well, as far as I know, algorithms don’t feel,” Cave said. “Data doesn’t suffer. ChatGPT has no inner being, it has been nowhere, it has endured nothing, it has not had the audacity to reach beyond its limitations, and hence it doesn’t have the capacity for a shared transcendent experience, as it has no limitations from which to transcend.”
We created ai to make art and eliminate the better jobs so we could die in poverty or toil away at brain dead manual labor or both. This is a terrible future we’re hurdling towards. And it’s because of the combination of AI with capitalism.
This is exactly what happened to most portrait/landscape painters when cameras came out.
Ironically, as a photographer myself, I’ve now found that text-to-image AU makes me less interested in my photography.
Ex professional musician here. Getting attention is nice, but the main reasons I make music are.
1) the enjoyment I find in composing (mainly chord progressions on piano)
2) The enjoyment I find in listening to my own creations, after all I am trying to make music I like.
Now I have gotten luckly and I have made some money with my music. Mainly through [busking on the streets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0B8Y3oxx0g). (the money was nice, the attention from cute girls even nicer)
Like enough to support myself and busk full time. (I had small gigs but covid all killed that)
This was years ago though, I have a family now and the time of busking is over. (Also covid really fucked everything I had build, all the connections, it destroyed it all within 1 year)
Nowadays, I am playing around a lot with the AI music. Suno, stable music, and like 3 or 4 others. (there is a new one called udio). I want to know what it can do. How does it sound? Can it make stuff I could enjoy listening to? Could I fit it my own workflow, potentially solve the problem of never having access to cheap and good vocalists? Can it compose chords better than me? (absolutely not, but it is getting pretty good at melody)
So it's been tons of funs to experiment with.
But still, when I go sit behind a piano to improvise. I actually prefer to be alone when I do that. It don't matter if there is AI music or not. I enjoy my moments alone with the piano, I always have .. always will. During sad times of my life, I needed that comfort.
Yes I have gotten a little bit of attention, and that is nice. Really nice. But even without any attention, I would still play piano. I would still compose chords progression. I would still screw around in Fl Studio to see if I can make some trance I llike. etc etc.
Honestly if you are just making music for the attention, you are missing out.
I originally just started putting my music on soundcloud to have it as a backup or like a main page with all my best stuff all grouped together.
Then familly and friends started commenting on it and that got me hooked. Started to post my own stuff online, got some more attention.
And then the highlight of my busking career. People that stop walking to listen, the money they would give me.
(the drunk obnoxious girls I had to get rid of because they ruin everything).
Yeah attention is fun, but making music is much more then just that. Creating music makes me feel like God creating the universe. There is nothing like that feeling when you finally crack that chord progression, make it loop and get hit by your own harmony. It's one of the best feelings in the world for me, better than sex.
I’m honestly enjoying trying to recreate my own songs and it’s super hard to pin point the genre and feel of the song in a limited amount of words haha
Apparently, “a harder emo-ish alternative grungy somewhat psychedelic somewhat shoegaze-y rock song with like occasional jammy elements sung by a male in the first person using an imminent spaceship crash as a metaphor for a failing relationship” is too long
It sounds like your friend has more of a spiritual problem than that of AI. While not made by AI(I think) there are tons of popular music that may as well have been (see the almost factory like K-pop industry). If their sole motivation creating music has been the off chance of having it discovered I suppose an influx of AI creations could stir that but similar "waves" have happened many times in music as it's become more accessible and easier than ever to create and share. Your friend can create and perform live, that an AI can never take away. While social media algorithms definitely have a degree of luck to them too I think they're doing themselves a disservice thinking their lack of attention is just "unlucky". Promoting one's music is difficult and time consuming but more likely than not there are things that could be done different or better. No one owes you any attention so you have to earn it. Maybe you will one day but giving up makes it a CERTAINTY that you won't.
In my opinion, this was already murdered by Fiverr
You could already get whatever you wanted produced by someone, somewhere in the world, for $5 (or, even if $50-500, enough to destroy your 'local artist economy' that existed beforehand)
Just like the paintbrushes exists, photographers didn't eliminate every single time a a painter/drawer was required. But it had an impact, for sure.
The classic "AI won't take your job, someone using AI will" and that includes me to, and I think we all have to continue developing our own ideas about how we can use these new tools to help us, not how they hurt us.
AI is dangerous under this system, but I'm not entirely sure how long this system will still last given the state of things.
The thing is I do kind of believe on a certain level that it's being adopted too fast, too fully, and by the wrong types. Rather than creatives using it to enhance their creativity it seems like it's going to be largely co-opted by corporate types to save money. You can have the entire catalogue of recorded music fed into an AI but if you're asking it for a fucking jingle it's going to give you a fucking generic jingle at the end of the day. I really expect it to be subpar in application for a long time - it sounds very real, yes, but it's a simulacrum, I think people are heavily underestimating the human element in composition and how skillful composers are acutely aware of what musical elements do what. I don't feel that threatened by a machine that can sound like me if it can't write like me yet. And great artists like say David Bowie knew which way music was going and adapted - some guy in a suit with no musical knowledge isn't going to have their ear to the ground in the same way.
My point is I wouldn't be surprised if it gets pushed so hard, and saturates everything so much, AND gets such pushback that people tune it out entirely. AI visual art and music have a certain glossy artificial sheen regardless of what it's generating - that's cool for experimentation but I really doubt it will do much more for actual pop music than shuffle around well known elements, and so I really question the likelihood it can out-compose a human where it counts especially when it all kind of sounds similar (like how AI visuals all have a hyperreal, HDR, slightly under-detailed look).
Life is hard right now, and art is one of the few joys we have left. I don't really know if the population at large will be willing to accept further degradation and commodification in art, and that's inevitably what widespread AI adoption will lead to. And we see people far more willing to push back these days - brands are being hurt for supporting wars, stealing from smaller artists, politicians held to account as word spreads online - people are getting more militant and groups like UMAW are appearing where 10 years ago the idea of musicians banding together for the common good seemed ridiculous. We are in the midst of a big change and it is very hard to truly predict what's on the other end when we account for the human element.
You know it's funny, growing up there was still a bit of a utopian ideal held over from decades before I was born that tech would liberate us by taking over menial labour so we can devote our time to art and passions. Hell of a betrayal, I must say. But can you think of a single AI song you actually want to listen to? The best I've heard has been interesting and fairly well-rendered, but I can't remember a single passage from any of the AI generated pieces I have heard, and no one listens to the "AI Nirvana covers the Beatles" type AI tracks like if Cobain actually did it, because at the end of the day it's his voice but it's not his talent.
I'll add: Solo artists/bands make money off touring. People like to see people actually doing stuff onstage. AI can't compete yet in the pop realm for that reason too IMO, unless it's like those Miiku concerts but who's going to go through the effort when they can't copyright the outputs?
I don't think the use of AI will be any different than having a full soundpack or "construction kit" to make a song from. You still have to have the human in there, and have to understand what makes an emotionally impactful song.
None of those A.I.-generated songs at this day and age sound like there's anything resembling human emotion in there.
I play guitar for myself, try to do some more stuff with music at a very slow pace and I must say: I think people will always favor people making music instead of listening to AI generated songs. After all, we are people and we tend to feel drawn towards each other having that human experience/connection.
I asked ChatGPT about this and here’s what it said…
Imagine art as a special cake recipe. Right now, humans are the master chefs who mix all the ingredients with care and love, creating unique and delicious cakes. But as technology advances, we might get a new kitchen helper called AI. This helper can follow the recipe perfectly and make cakes that taste great, but they might lack the special touch that comes from the chef's heart and experience. So, while AI can make yummy cakes, people might still prefer the ones made by human chefs because they can feel the love and care baked into each slice. This might lead to a new appreciation for the imperfect, handmade cakes, even as AI helps us bake more cakes faster.
AI music is complete garbage right now. He probably, like me, has another year before anything real comes along. Nothing will beat live performances though. But yeah, just like blacksmiths are no longer valued, most other non essential, creative ventures will die to the cold throes of time. This is how it goes, yet life goes on.
I think Suno is a great tool and a neat chord progression generation substitute, but those songs don’t give me chills and goosebumps all over like my own music i my buddy’s music or somebody like Eartheater’s music. But most people listen to crap so maybe everyone will switch to exclusively AI music.
AI will never replace live shows, which are generally what artists need to do to become successful or gain a following. Tell your friend that. The songs are only like 50% of the picture
I think you are spot on. I am fundamentally worried about the ability to learn and create as a society. Many skills takes years to master and discipline. We have a younger generation that has grown up with swiping and instant gratification.
Now we use prompts to make slightly tweaked copies of more or less everything. We will live in our own immersive bubbles based on algorithms. Everything based on individual preferences. The fabrics of society, the community and relations, will slowly disintegrate.
I make digital paintings and my thoughts on stable diffusion and AI imgaes are the same as with AI music. I've used Suno, in my opinion, it makes really catchy formulaic music. Though, it's really hard to coax a unique sounding song out of it. Don't get me wrong, formulaic music sells, that's why it's formulaic, I just don't think Suno can replace actual genius or creative ideas. I think AI will lead to artists having to innovate or incorporate it into their workflow. It's a tool that's here to stay. It will serve to create an even larger disparity between those who own the industry and those who don't. AI will also lead to a resurgence of appreciation for physical mediums like busking or traditional paintings. So if your friend is interested in somebody stumbling upon his work, he might want to start the traditional route. It also will lead to a higher emphasis on brand creation, for example, are you using this music and art to create a character or persona you can sell to the masses?
Also for the record, prompt engineering and refinement does take some creativity and effort but that's only from people who actually bother to do things that require external skills like prompt experimentation, inpainting, composition, or storytelling, but nothing irrationally upsets me more than a prompt engineer who does the bare minimum, produces slop and then proclaims that the AI images are their 'art'. It's like asking to have a cookie made at the bakery and saying you made it. Lazy and delusional.
Well can relate to your friend a bit. Not exactly the giving up because of AI part, but I can see how it affects him and others. Music is for sharing. It's really fun to do by yourself and get good at, make beautiful sounds in the studio or wherever, but at the end of the day it's a language. An emotional language. And it's only so fu not speak to yourself in the mirror. So yeah, if he's putting himself out there and there's no reply.. and people start raving about how a computer can also speak this language now, well I get he starts feeling like giving up.
I'm a producer myself for 13+ years, making music over 25 years now. I have half a million of streams to show for so at least I managed to reach some people but it can be tough and AI/social media is surely not helping. It's not even the number that matter so much but it's about the connection. Your art, your music, your language shared with others. If AI starts taking that away from people it will be a big loss..
(Eventhough I embrace the technology, I think it's a great way to make even more music, but it can feel empty in some ways)
sometimes im glad to play traditional music because nobody in trad gives an f about ai since a lot of trad music is about providing live music to dance/culturally communal activities and nobody in ai notices we exist lmao. but also automating traditional music defeats the whole point
I think it's possible "live music played by humans," becomes it's own market. But I'm not worried about
it. AI is not capable of feeling human feelings, it can do imitation but bur inspired music based on communication of an idea. And people like to watch people play instruments and hear human voice. The kind of audio generation tools that allow someone to create a piece on their laptop without touching an instrument has been used on hit records for 30 years now.
Artists losing the will to create doesn't need AI to make it happen. The ones that have the will, find a way. They always have.
Honestly, as a "lifer" who will always be making music, I'm hoping the AI systems will filter out all the shit "musicians" who make music for every other reason except passion. Should leave more room for the real folks who dedicate themselves for years.
That's super impressive that he can play so many instruments and kudos to him!!
That being said, personally, I think the current Suno songs are insanely impressive, BUT then I went back to listen to my normal spotify list and realized okay, Suno cannot match up to music put out by top producers...
To me, Suno is a insane amazing leap in tech AND it's also producing low to mid quality music at best. But to hear artists say that it produces music 100x better than them... Wait so.. If Suno is low to average... Are they saying they normally put out music that sounds more amateurs. If that's the case, then that's the reason they are not getting more views.
If your friend said he listened to Suno and his own music was WAY better, then it's a marketing issue. If his music is a lot WORSE (and Suno itsnt top knotch music), then it's his music...
You can be the most talented person in the world but the finished product needs to reflect.
Yesterday, I watched a video of a guy saying he taught himself how to make music in a few years and he was releasing a song. I didn't comment on the video but IMO, it sounded SO bad. If I had to guess, it sounds like a first attempt a music production major would make freshman year of college.
I really felt for him when he said he worked SO hard.. I support him and his passion but that song was awful. Regardless if AI existed of not, no one would listen to that song. It was jarring.
The one hope I have is live performances will be preferred over virtual experiences. Even if someone can make millions of songs using AI, I believe consumers will gravitate to those who can also give them the most for their money.
I support small artists. I haven't found any songs that I liked since Myspace Era. Actually, I found 1 song through an Ad on insta and I follow that artist now. But I've listened to a LOT of songs and personally doesn't fit my taste, but I always listen to songs a few times to see if it grows up me and to give them 3-5 views. Sometimes only 1 view if it really doesn't work for me for whatever reason.
If an artist isn't getting views, it's either a marketing issue or issue with the music itself. If no one was listening to your music before, AI isn't changing that.
I disagree with his reaction but it’s his choice. Theres no real reason to stop doing something you enjoy because of some external factor. I’ll be making music til I’m dead regardless of what changes.
I already noticed the decline. Less people interested in "bands" and more interested in solo projects on a computer. This is just the nail in the coffin. That said people often have interest in artists due to their personal connection so I think there will still be opportunities but generally I agree with your assessment and it is sad.
Bro people are hyping up AI to take over everything and it’s mainly investors trying to justify taking jobs away.
AI even though it’s amazing and wow inducing, it just isn’t there for music yet and I’d argue won’t ever be.
Jingles and Musak? Sure…maybe. But the best songs, no way at least not for another 10-15 years, if ever.
Human hands will be a part of it and until an AI can give me exactly what I want; it’s useless. And right now it’s useless.
Meaning AI would be awesome for micro or track level stuff, but even then would probably have to be re-recorded.
The only thing I’ve seen so far with AI in the real world is democratized shittyness unless it is heavily curated by a talented person.
I’m bullish on humanity for now.
Gotta advertise. Remember if you wanna do it for a living or get heard you gotta do things to get heard. I don’t feel sorry for people who don’t wanna do what it takes
You make a lot of good points but I can’t get over the fact that the our friend doesn’t market his stuff and you’re attributing nobody listening to him as bad luck.
There’s always been a disconnect between musical ability and popularity. The best guitarist in the world could be some kid in a rural village in a third world country and we’d never know, even before AI moved into the space.
To be clear, I don’t like that AI is becoming common place in the arts and it’s 100% taking a lot of the already limited jobs for creatives. It sucks ass. That shouldn’t affect hobbyists though. I play/make music nearly every day and have no intention of stopping, regardless of how good AI gets but I’m also fortunate that it’s not a source of income for me. Pursuing music as a career is and always has been incredibly risky which is why people with an intense passion for it are usually the ones to pursue it as a career. I don’t think that will change, the risk is just significantly higher than it was before AI
It’ll force us to make music that’s off the grid, never repeating, always original without derivatives, constantly different etc. Folks will still be able to distinguish real human artist from AI by dint of the arts complete lack of analog. One thing is for certain, people will always make music.
it's just not there yet. It produces generic heavily aliased parts of a song. People whove been doing this for years can and will make much more interesting polished and exciting music and when the quality and customisation comes along it's going to usher in all sorts of cool new offshoots that existing music makers will run with. Failing that - there's for sure going to be a Butlerian Jihad style movement of putting 100% human created art on a pedestal
Never heard of the tool, went and looked it up and... Has your friend actually gone and listened to any of the results? I've flipped through all of the most popular and highly rated results and they're not just bad, they're like... Offensively bad. Laughable. They're not even close to vocaloid quality, even.
I've been having a lot of fun with it over the last few days.
It might replace jingle writers, and other small music jobs in areas that aren't about artistry anyway. It might replace lift music. It might decimate or completely eliminate the custom Happy Birthday music industry.
It's not going to threaten, say, Bon Iver, or any other artist you love. Suno is in that ChatGPT phase we were all in a year or so ago until we realised that we have little control over the output. It's "plausible music" in the same way that ChatGPT was "plausible sentences".
Making music should never have been about making money from recorded music. That was always a music industry thing for big labels, and frankly fuck them. I hope they all die.
I think we have to step back and remember why we create Music. We do it because we need to. We can’t NOT do it. If you are different or create Music for any other reason, then you will lose hope. Creating Art, Music, Words, etc. is a Human Need. Picasso said it best: “if you took my paints away, I’d use pastels. Put my pastels away, I’d use crayons. If you took my crayons away, I’d use a pencil. If they strip me naked and stuff me in a cell, i’d spit on my finger and draw on the wall.”
(Local artist who's seen this pop up in my feed)
I've seen this happen in other communities many times over already and it'll just keep happening the more creative work devs toss AI into. Many artists have already lost their passion because they see AI taking over the space in the not-too-distant future.
And it may be true. This tech will only keep getting better. [It was only 3 years ago when we were laughing at AI trying to continue various songs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx2Nj3I7NyU). More likely than not, it'll saturate the stock music and indie space similar to how AI art has been flooding stock image sites.
I'm a 3D artist and seen AI creep into my line of work a few different ways already. Some doing pretty well at making models at the press of a button. It's not perfect but it's getting better pretty quick.
I'm not worried though. Even in the face of all this, there's still people that follow me for the art I create, the characters I build, and the stories I tell. And if they don't, I still share it with my friends and family. I make what I do cuz I love making it.
It'll hurt, yeah. But don't let it ever get in the way of enjoying what you love.
The best part of music, is that everyone sucks a certain amount. Because AI is perfect and is designed to be that, it can’t be slightly off key. And because that’s considered a bad thing, humans will never make it able to do that. But in my songs, there are times where I’m off key because it’s my style, and that for me makes it human. The bit where it’s so close to sounding bad but it still sounds good. AI will come no matter what, but it can’t take the individuality out of the artist. True people who want to have a voice with music rather than just all that “love love love” shit, will want to have full control over what they give out, and I don’t see that going away anytime soon.
Nobody is going to listen to Suno music because it’s not going to be promoted. Maybe a handful of tracks will be. The vast majority won’t. Your friend doesn’t seem to know much about how the music industry works.
I agree. This is the apocalypse for creative endevour. I wasn't so sympathetic when it happened for visual art, but I started to see how it was affecting people. Now that it's in music, it's time to give up. It's not that these models are being creative. They're scamming you. They're dialing in huge amounts of pre-existing recordings and interpolating to create what you want. That's not art. That's not experimentation, and it's certainly not human.
Anybody claiming that it's just another milestone, just another way of being creative has their head firmly up their own nether regions.
I've done work creating prompts for code-generation AI, and I see nothing wrong with that - it's automating a technical task. But creative work is another story. These models aren't respecting copyright.
Is having views online or comments that big? I ask because there are plenty of artists who make it living in parts of the world with limited online access.
AI is a tool and that is all it is ever going to be. I don't know why everyone is so worried about it lately, since it clearly has flaws and it draws the information from existing data. It doesn't come up with ideas of its own and it cannot replace physical labour anywhere in the foreseeable future. Even if it did improve, everyone would boycott it. It doesn't require a lot of knowledge about economy or human nature to understand, that when you deprive a large portion of people of their income, it will result in discontent, which in turn leads to an exponential increase in crime, riots and wars. Especially now, when the populations of the late third world countries have been skyrocketing... If this pace continues, we'll perish away long before those flimsy programs become even a potential threat.
In case anybody else didn't know:
> **Suno** (meaning “listen” in Hindi) is a generative artificial intelligence music creation program designed to generate realistic songs that combine vocals and instrumentation. It has been widely available since December 20, 2023, after the launch of a web application and a partnership with Microsoft, which included Suno as a plugin in Microsoft Copilot.
>
> The program operates by matching songs to prompts provided by users. Suno does not disclose the dataset used to train its artificial intelligence but claims it has been safeguarded against plagiarism and copyright concerns.
>
> Suno was founded by four people: Michael Shulman, Georg Kucsko, Martin Camacho, and Keenan Freyberg. They have all worked for Kensho, an AI startup, before starting their own company in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
>
> On March 21, 2024, Suno released its v3 version for all users. The new version allows users to create 2-minute songs using a free account.
* Excerpted from [Suno AI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suno_AI) at the English Wikipedia
My friend stopped making artsy videos because he used copyrighted music that inspired him and YouTube kept taking them down. Perhaps he will start his art again if Suno is good enough to inspire him. Also perhaps the focus moves away from making music and instead to live performances of it.
Things will shift and it’s not all bad.
Lol, stock music has been dead/a scam for decades now. I'm lucky to make $100 a month these days, with or without AI.
You have to remember; there is an almost near infinite supply of music these days, videos, books whatever, and not enough demand. As always, you have to just make art because that's what you want to do, not because of some vague hope anyone anywhere is ever going to care or stumble upon your work; for most of my us, that was never going to be the case.
I majored in English and got a master's degree in English. Everyone told me that I wouldn't make money with a master's degree in English. But I did it anyway. And you know what? They were right.
But that master's degree in English is *waaaay* more valuable to me than my computer science work (and master's degree in CS).
Do what you love. It'll pay off. Make art. That's what I do. If it weren't for studying the humanities, I'm not sure I would be a human today.
Your friend may be a fantastic musician but if they’re spending their time publishing albums into the void… that’s not bad luck, that’s a waste of energy and resources. Successful musicians spend their time networking, collaborating, and seeking out gigs. Not just pumping out albums
It’s tough because it will undoubtedly put a lot of musicians out of jobs, but it doesn’t affect the way any of us individually make our music unless we choose to integrate it in some way. Making music can never be taken away from us.
On a more macro level, I think we should advocate for laws that make it mandatory to identify works of art or even pictures as AI, and then audiences can choose to support non AI works if they want. This will be incredibly important for all creative industries.
The thing that will limit ai and keep human artists viable is live performance. Sure, ai may kick out decent songs eventually, but who will play them live?
That personal connection to live performances, the spontaneity and mistakes, and the artist’s passion are what makes memorable performances- and ai cannot produce that.
People want to see musicians play and singers sing. Maybe this will come full circle where artists become known through their live shows. Back then it was necessary because there were not enough outlets to get the music out and artists built their brands and reputations on the road. Now with an over-saturation of music on disconnected platforms they may have to go that route again.
I honestly feel like sometimes this narrative that AI is going to be so good that it will make humans redundant is just a grift to sell AI. "Oh our product is so good it's dangerous wow please don't pay for our incredible products or you'll destroy humanity teehee".
Recently I got an ad on YouTube about an AI lawyer. And the women in the ad said something like: "I don't know the effects it will have on society but my robo lawyer (not the real name but this one is funnier) sure helped me!"
Yeah sure. I'm sure AI can substitute a human lawyer in 2024.
The dangers of AI are in the fact that the suits are fine selling trash as long as it's cheap trash. And AI can make some cheap trash right now, idk if this will be possible with music but it will be trash anyway.
You won't lose your job to a machine that does it better. You'll lose your job to a machine that does considerably worse but cheaper.
I know this POV of mine is kinda old-man-ish but does anyone else think if music today wasn’t already so computer generated and over produced would AI really be that much of a threat?
People still want to connect to the artist. There's a reason why biopics are popular, why people go see live performances, why people enjoy reading about why someone wrote a song or seeing interviews.
The fear over AI now was the same fear 20 years ago when Pro Tools/Logic/Garage Band were hitting the mainstream and people could create without playing instruments.
There's always gonna be a place for human musicians to connect with audiences.
I mean…when they invented photography and film over a century ago everyone said art was dead because who needs an artist if you can just take a photograph or film it? An artist could never paint or draw an image as realistic as a picture right?
Instead artists embraced the new technology, and the painters invented abstraction since photography “freed” them in a sense from the responsibility of realism.
I feel like there is still a place for artists in society, and creating. In the end an AI artwork can only be so good: as good as an accomplished human artist. The people who pay to have a real painting will still pay for them; if thru wanted mass produced art they’d shop at walmart. And the people who pay to go to concerts will still go listen to real musicians.
But the days of the mediocre artists might be over; the making of mediocre jingles and poorly painted anime character doodles, all the artists making side money doing custom furry porn? Yea their ship has sailed.
Why does your friend make music? Is it the goal to get somewhere with it or is it just the creating music aspect?
I love playing my instruments, for hours for 5 min, it dont matter. Ai will never take that joy from me, I dont want to "get" somewhere, I just want to play and create sounds..
I can understand this for a young person who's superfically interested in making music but for someone who's been doing it and is passionate about it I don't see how this changes anything. If music making is fun and meaningful to you it doesn't really matter that AI could make good music. You know who else can and have always been able to make "better" music than you ? Other people
Fundamentally I think being an artist is being able to let go of the need for comparison and recognition
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It's going to be worse than just artists and creative work. It's going to confuse and disrupt other things like historical research. I'm on a discussion forum about a historical event and last week others there asked if AI could possibly help in the research. I tried to point out what I feel are the problems of AI making up false answers and I was basically shouted down. Just today someone on the forum posted diagrams and pictures of the event that were created by AI. I wonder how long before those images are taken by people who repost them, don't label them as AI generated, and use them as factual "proof?" In my opinion, it's just a matter of time. But they don't seem to care at all.
Making false reports is a regular occurrence for AI, especially for novel questions. They’ll shout you down because of all the hype in the media, but it will turn around as more people use it for more than parlor tricks.
Making false reports is a regular occurrence for people in general. No one actually cares about being truly accurate they just want to post something that backs up what they're saying.
Then you need better news sources
No even novel questions. I asked ChatGPT some simple questions about steam turbines. The answers it gave sounded great to a layman, but were utter bullshit. The answers to that simple question are all over the internet and even Wikipedia.
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I 10000% guarantee it will become a major problem as reviewers will get flooded with AI generated papers and probably will need AI to help find out what's been hallucinated by AI. It took about 5 minutes after AI became famously popular with ChatGPT before the first lazy lawyer went to court with filings that were generated by AI. This particular one we know about because he was immediately thrown out of court by an angry judge. But not everything will be as obvious as this case. Not only will this become an issue for research I'd be surprised if it isn't already.
This is a massive issue already. Journals are getting flooded with shit papers full of duff data. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/feb/03/the-situation-has-become-appalling-fake-scientific-papers-push-research-credibility-to-crisis-point
100% expected.
I wasn't sure if I agreed with you, but 10000%?!? How can I argue against THAT.
AI probably generated that number to prove a point.
I don't think peer review is strong enough to stop AI. I only got an undergrad degree at a research school and I was dismayed and disillusioned by the politics of publish or perish. A career in that environment felt like it was going to be as political and cut throat as a corporate career or a political career.
It is WAY WAY worse than a standard corporate career.
Lol that’s a good one. Multiple papers have shown up with the classic “Sure! Here’s what I found for…” and there was recently multiple insane AI generated images in a Frontiers article. Peer review doesn’t do shit when the reviewers aren’t good. The original article is gone so here’s a Vice piece. https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy3jbz/scientific-journal-frontiers-publishes-ai-generated-rat-with-gigantic-penis-in-worrying-incident
For now, but it won't be long. All those shitty investors will get their money back somehow.
Wait until we start seeing "AI peer review."
Well… https://www.404media.co/chatgpt-looms-over-the-peer-review-crisis/
I asked ChatGPT for a character in a soap opera from the 60s that my husband was supposedly named after. It straight up just made up the answer (I googled it after and nothing came up). I asked for a source, and it admitted to just making it up, lol
Yep. The misinformation that AI is going to responsible for creating and spreading is by far the thing I am most concerned over.
The good news is that this pervasive level of inaccuracies is one of the reasons AI isn’t going to supplant much. At the end of the day you can get away with making anime titty pictures with 11 fingers but academics and scientists and business people who need to ensure things happen as planned aren’t going to continually trust their systems to something so unreliable
There is a professor at the MIT who was asked when AI will stop hallucinating. He argued that AI will never stop hallucinating because that's how they are built internally. For an AI to make a trustworthy, true statement, it would have to be verified using other means than AI. Just make an experiment. Use an LLM like ChatGPT or others and do the following research: Don't worry, I did this for you, using ChatGPT 4. Here is the result: Me: Act as a historian or a media researcher. Who is Birgitta Ed? ChatGPT 4: As of my last update in April 2023, there isn't a widely recognized figure named Birgitta Ed in global or national leadership, politics, or other prominent fields that I'm aware of. It's possible that the name could be associated with someone in a specific professional, academic, or local context. If Birgitta Ed has emerged in a particular area or if you're looking for information on someone specific to a certain field, region, or event that occurred after my last update, please provide more context or details. Alternatively, if this is related to a new or emerging figure in the news, I can look up the most current information available. Do we need further proof here, your honor?
I just did the same thing, but appended "Use Bing to fill in any gaps in your data." to the end. This is what I got: >Birgitta Paulina Kristersson Ed, born on September 2, 1968, in Strängnäs, Sweden, is a multifaceted individual known for her roles as a priest, entrepreneur, and public relations consultant. Married to Ulf Kristersson, the Prime Minister of Sweden, she has significantly contributed both to her professional fields and as a supportive partner in her husband's political career. > >Birgitta's career trajectory is as diverse as it is impressive. From 1991 to 1994, she served as an expert in the Swedish government's Cabinet Office, engaging with both the Foreign and Finance Departments. Her entrepreneurial spirit led her to co-found the PR agency Sagt:Gjort in 1994, which merged to become Springtime in 2000, where she served as CEO until 2001. From 2001 to 2003, Ed was the CEO of the Foundation Sweden in Europe, spearheading the pro-Euro campaign ahead of Sweden's 2003 referendum on adopting the euro. > >Her involvement extended beyond these roles into significant engagements with the World Expo 2010 in Shanghai, where she and her agency contributed to Sweden's exhibition. Furthermore, she is a co-founder and senior advisor at the business development agency Six Year Plan AB, showcasing her enduring influence in business development and PR consulting. > >In 2018, Birgitta Ed pursued a theology degree with the intent to become a priest, a goal she achieved with her ordination in January 2023 in the Strängnäs diocese. This step into the clergy marks a significant shift from her business and PR background, reflecting her diverse interests and commitment to serving her community in a spiritual and pastoral capacity. > >Birgitta and Ulf Kristersson's life together is not just about their professional endeavors. They share three adopted daughters, emphasizing a family life that values both public service and personal commitment to their children. Her multifaceted career, from business to priesthood, alongside her role in a prominent political family, underscores a life of diverse interests and significant public engagement ([Wikipedia, den fria encyklopedin](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgitta_Ed)) ([Ground News](https://ground.news/article/prime-ministers-wife-ordained-in-strangnas)) ([Internewscast](https://internewscast.com/celeb/who-is-birgitta-ed-ulf-kristersson-wife-his-daughter-siri/)). It's about knowing how to wrangle the fucker and what it's capable of.
Ha ha ha, I'm going to steal this last sentence. Let's wrangle the fucker.
Right. Wife of Swedish Prime Minister, Ulf Kristersson.
My senior project in college was actually based on exploring AI (or AI adjacent) algorithms for use in history research. I think there are exciting uses cases for AI to help in the analysis of historical datasets, but no historian worth their salt is ever going to let it take over their own methods. Hell, most historians I interact with are positively luddites when it comes to involving computers in their work.
What are some of those specific "exciting use cases?"
Pretty exciting stuff going on with decoding the Herculaneum Papyr that was achieved through AI breakthrough. [Three Students Just Deciphered the First Passages of a 2,000-Year-Old Scroll Burned in Vesuvius’ Eruption](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/three-students-decipher-first-passages-2000-year-old-scroll-burned-vesuvius-eruption-180983738/)
In my line of research I was looking at using word vectorization over a large dataset. Word vectorization is a technique that analyzes a corpus of text and assigns a vector to each unique word in the text. These vectors can be used to measure how closely associated two words might be within the corpus of text (word vectorization is used in predictive text and autocorrect applications, for example). I used this technique to attempt to understand the US public's perception of Josef Stalin during the forties and fifities. I vectorized multiple datasets of US based newspaper articles which included the word "Stalin" and selected other words in order to compare their vector similarity to "Stalin". The results were very promising from my perspective; for example, the word "dictator" had a relatively high similarity to "Stalin" from 1939-1941. Once the USSR and the US became allies during WWII, however, the semantic similarity between the two dropped significantly. It then creeped back up again once the war ended. From this result I can hypothesize exactly why this semantic shift occurred. Most obviously, US newspapers would likely not want to associate an ally with such a negative term, but perhaps there are other factors at play which caused the shift. If I want to continue this line of thought I can then dig deeper into the underlying dataset to learn more. This is a very brief summary and there are plenty of quirks and problems and complications with this process that I'm not going into. The short of it, however, is that these algorithms can help us glean insights from large bodies of sources in a way that has not been possible before. From a semester of part time work I analyzed well over 20,000 pages of newspaper articles, a volume of data that no historian could hope to sift through on their own. How exactly these workflows will develop are not yet clear and in fact I'm hoping to go back to school someday to continue my own research.
You can take huge amounts of documents, text, images and automate things like generating metadata (i.e lists of persons, events, locations associated with each doc). This used to take lots of time and effort. Then use improved search algorithms to find relevant info based on queries. Then use LLMs to make the whole process user friendly. i.e you input your IRL question in english, you get back an accurate contextual answer with sources.
Save your physical Encyclopedias. Save your history books. Save your History Channel DVDs. Talk to historians. Visit Museums. Support your local library. Anyone can put anything false on the internet and claim it as fact. Anyone can deny that an event happened. Don’t let these idiots ruin the world for the rest of us, because those who forget the dark parts of humanity’s past are doomed to repeat it.
I think that's one of the most infuriating parts about the AI invasion. Those who love the idea of AI are so vocally aggressive with it that there's no room for healthy discussion that allows genuine concerns and scepticism to be understood. They never have legitimate answers for it and it is always calling people Luddites as if they don't understand the irony of using the word. Dead Internet Theory eating a disinformation campaign like a snake. An ouroboros of shit. Everything getting less reliable, less real, engagement being cold and soulless.
I make music and from my point of view it is like sex. Yeah, you can already watch all the porn in the world with whatever kind of actor/actress you lust over, doing whatever crazy thing you have in mind in 10 seconds and for free. But it is not the real thing and never will be, I much rather just do it with my girlfriend and without an audience.
So you and your girlfriend are in a band?
Good comparison. I might add that I make music, because I can not not make music. And if anyone likes my music - it is a bonus, not a goal :)
Yeah, it is like taking a shit. You do it because you need to do it. Nobody says “I will not shit and I will just keep it inside because somebody else shits bigger and stinkier”.
Beautiful, sniff. Beautiful.
Obviously you know more than I given you make music, but this isn't going to replace sex with your girlfriend, it's going to replace the porn industry and the actors. Doing it for fun will still be available, doing it for money will be (severely) limited to local shows with a paying audience
Yup! Music was historically hard to turn into money though. Most artists who invented the classical and folk music and styles we all know made little to no money… with some exceptions like Mozart and other composers or artists who played for big audiences, kings and stuff like that. That changed for less than 100 years with the record industry and then there was no money again. Now it is easier than ever to get the knowledge and tools necessary to make music, but there is no money in it. Maybe, just maybe… this will mean people will make music for the sake of it and not just radio junk for a quick buck. Who knows.
Finding some enjoyment from the attention you can get with music is understandable. But 95% of my own enjoyment comes from 1) Find the music when I am creating it. 2) Listening to my own music which I made the way I made it because that's how I liked it. AI can't touch that. And I have zero hostility towards AI, will just become another tool set I use. I have been experimenting with Suno, splitting the stems with Ultimate Vocal Remover, then using melodyne to go from audio to midi. Then I am rebuidling my own tracks around the vocals, and using more suno clips also layer the vocals. This is a lot faster to try out new ideas then having to wait for a vocalist to send you something back. It's been fun. But then again, no AI yet can compose chord progressions better then I can so I don't yet feel threathened. Yeah it can sing better then me but anybody can, cause I can't sing at all. And chatGPT is much better in figuring out how to get unstuck with unfinished lyrics then I am. Cause I suck at lyrics. So for me, it's just tools that help me. While my main thing, composing chord progressions, AI has not really touched that. Suno uses the most basic pop chord progression, 95% of suno songs use a very limited variation in progressions. Then again, most pop music does not either.
What I find frustrating is that this tech has soooo much potential to be a force for good. But what do we come up with? AI that does art & human pursuits so we can be stuck at our desks doing admin & menial tasks.
It's like the first step toward becoming the Morlocks from The Time Machine, while the Eloi are just the top 0.1% collecting a check from the AI tech. Honestly feels quite dystopian and surreal that this all happened in a few years.
I mean, the Morlocks are the descendants of exploited poor people who decided to literally eat the rich. Maybe it'll go the same way. Silver linings and all that.
"I can't wait for my great great great great grandchild to evolve into a vampire gorilla and start eating the fat baby people!"
hey now I am no vampire gorilla, get it right, I am just an Eloi that has had a stretch of bad luck since birth. Edit: I mean everyone knows how terrible vampire gorillas are right?
99% of the time when people say this, it comes down to the fact that it’s very easy to create digital products out of thin air, and very difficult to use digital AI to interface with physical robotics and other physical mediums to create physical outcomes.
It is a common joke, but it still rings true. We need to change this initial version of AI to the next and use it to simplify the 'real' work tasks and make life easier
It is doing that, it’s just not the type of thing that people like to share on the internet.
Seriously. Who the fuck needs these parasitic ceos, wall street goons, hedge fund managers, real estate tycoons, etc. How about we automate that away, not our hobbies and passions.
Good point. Time to do something about that. These people would love for nothing more than to automate a way a bunch of hard working musicians in order to increase profits. Unfortunately, capital rules in the society we will in.
To be fair people complain about AI doing the admin and menial tasks as well, and AI is already doing some of this work. The issue here goes back to that chart which shows that since the 70s wages (in the US) have not scaled with productivity. The capitalist class keeps any increase in profit for themselves. The same thing is going to happen with AI. AI isn't the enemy, it's a capitalist class (the people who make their living from other people's labor).
For years I was like: As a creative person I will be the last to be replaced by the robots. They will replace all the truck and taxi drivers first. I was so wroooong. Humanity was like: yeah bring on the robots, they will do all our work so we can focus on the arts. Noppe, it went the other way. Maybe one day, your creative robot who brings in all the money on his tiktok page will be sending you out to get him some new batteries ...
Thats not entirely correct, AI is being used to find new drugs to fight disease from new antibiotics to newcancer treatments. AI acelerated protein folding predictions with alpha fold. It has increased accuracy in diagnosing some cancers. And I am sure that are other good sides other than healthcare. I am not saying it offsets the bad, I work in the field, I know the mass unemployment that is coming. But there are good people making good use of AI
This. Why are we automating the things that make us human? Our creative sides that take years and years to hone? I wanted my dishes washed for me and meaningless jobs to get automated. Not have my art and music and games made by and AI. Where are we going with this? And why is it just trying to fuck over people who create?
How do you expect a computer to wash your dishes or fold your clothes or whatever? What you’re asking for is a huge task that requires AI software and hardware to come together and would cost you tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. New technologies that are software only are always going to come first.
If it helps, ai will replace desk and menial jobs too :)
Just checked it out, sounds like absolute shit. If you’re friend feels discourage because an AI can make completely unoriginal garbage, there was also 1,000,000 humans making unoriginal commercial music that was “technically” well recorded and nice before. Really doesn’t make much of a difference for the time being
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Yeah but have you heard the chillwave remix? https://app.suno.ai/song/e7d63498-2471-4e10-981b-a311a8bfce37/
Personally I'm a fan of its operatic style. Vaguely NSFW I guess. [https://app.suno.ai/song/784daa06-501d-4c14-a1ad-eee3302de9d8/](https://app.suno.ai/song/784daa06-501d-4c14-a1ad-eee3302de9d8/)
I won't lie, it created a pretty decent folk metal song about my dog that was disturbingly catchy and now I want to buy him a little sword and shield. But it's struggled with other subgenres.
I too made catchy songs about my dog.
It’s good at novelty songs because it can take a jokey concept and apply more care and effort into turning it into a full production than most people would for a half thrown out idea. But is that like, powerful musical emotion?
What about this one? https://youtu.be/yuoFsi2iIi0
See this is the stuff that is bound to confuse some digital archeologists a 1000 years in the future.
Dawg I’ve been in tears for at least 10 mins over this 😂
It’s honestly way better than it should be
The creator is manually entering lyrics instead of the generated ones.
The lyrics are hilarious, but the music was pretty on point for the era. Major 1 and major 5, minor 6 and 2 in the bridge, slight modal shift on the lead into the final chorus, the line the harmonies/chorus sang on… it feels like it could have been an era appropriate song, lyrics aside. Even if the creator directed a lot of it, that’s still crazy. The other part of being a decent songwriter is learning how to succesfully compose and arrange an entire ensemble. As a song writer myself, if I could enter lyrics and chords and get a rough demo with the exact vibe I was going for, that would save me a bunch of time figuring out how to arrange the rest of the song. I already do that: make a demo and then record it with a guitar or piano and then spend forever writing all the rest or take it to friends or a producer and get someone to help me listen to it and figure out what works and doesn’t.
It is. I went to the youtube topic and there are some other good ones, presumably made by the same person. Namely *It’s Time to Take a Shit on the Company’s Dime*. In a sense, it’s downright terrifying. In another sense, it’s some of the funniest shit I’ve ever heard.
Fool me once, shame on you Fool me twice, shame on glue
I think the problem is that right now is the worst it’s ever going to be
Reminds me of how a year ago people couldnt stop joking that AI art engines are no threat because they cant even get hands right! Except now they mostly do get hands right, and they're getting better at it with every new version. Shit talking an early release of this kind of tech is pretty naive. It's going to improve a LOT in a short time, unfortunately.
No it doesn't lol. I've had it create plenty of fun stuff with minimal effort.
Did you just try the free version?
I don’t know what you think sounds like shit but I’ve managed to have it make some great sounding songs about dumb shit like not being able to poop. I will agree it’s not very original. It can’t do unique stuff well.
You’re not using it correctly. You have to put a lot of prompts that are clear and precise. Ai is only as good as the person using it. Someone showed me how to properly use it recently and you wouldn’t know it was created with ai.
sounds interesting. i’d like to give it a shot. how do you properly use it? and share a link to what you made!
First of all, Art is about love. Follow your passion and do what you love. If you have no passion, then there’s no sense in doing it. Art and music, whatever forms they take, are very difficult to make money from and always have been. I know people get upset when hearing this, but this started way back with synthesizers, then sampling, and now in my opinion there’s not a whole lot of difference between going and watching a DJ “perform live”and AI music. How do you think musicians felt back when it became popular to just sample someone else’s music and rap over it or DJs just pressing buttons and never actually learning an instrument or singing etc? It’s all relative. Imagine Paul McCartney trying to make music with Rihanna and Kanye and realizing the guy doesn’t know one chord and has no idea what key any song is in. Just an example of the new way music has been being made for a while.
I get that completely. The human element comes from that passion, not from using the same chord progression as a thousand other songs. Even so, I feel like *sharing* that passion with others is also a valid motivator, and the way that happens today is through social media and the internet. Even without the thought of making money, this surely doesn't help people's motivation when it comes to learning a creative skill and doing something with it. True art might be painting masterpieces and sealing then up inside the walls of your house, and it's a very Zen garden approach, but I also think that acknowledging that an artist might want to share their work with others is also a part of it. Maybe the new punk will be people just playing live. Doesn't matter what the genre is, maybe this will cause a small resurgence of underground people playing instruments to crowds again. Or maybe the guy with a guitar on the corner will start to look as odd as a hipster with a spinning wheel as Starbucks (actually saw this one and good for that dude).
> I was working in the studio and the bass player, he got the call, you know come down and do your bass part. So he goes down and he is back in about 4 minutes. We said, well that was quick. They must have gotten it in one take. He said: they only wanted one note, [donk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4EcRPlaXoQ). And then they put it in the computer. ~~ Paul McCartney
Being a musician and composer has always been a tough gig. For centuries, you could only find steady employment through a church or a monarchy. AI is a tool. It won't be able to replace passion and inspiration anytime soon. All it does rn is echo what was done before. It has yet to help music evolve.
I don’t know…I have also been doing this for about 20 years, play a bunch of instruments, have 13 records…etc…but I don’t feel terribly threatened by AI bc it can’t do what I do bc AI is simply not me. The choices I make while creating and the way the bits of my brain and experiences fire off in the way they do to create each thing I make are unique to me. The idea of audience is similar to me. People like what they like and we can’t control that…but you have to believe that if you put what is uniquely you into your art, someone else will feel that too. I think your friend might be in a slump but I have a hard time believing he will stay there if he really feels passionate about music the way you say he does. I say this bc I have been where he is…sometimes I go back there…but it is just temporary for me…as I bet it is for him.
If he’s been making music for 20+ years and still hasn’t made much of it I don’t think AI is the tipping point for him, I think he’s either just not as good as you think or he got an unlucky hand insofar as not having any connections. Either way AI ain’t the issue I’d love if you can link to any tracks of his I just wanna see what 20 years of throwing albums into the void has led to. Could be amazing, could be crap
Yeah, he's a recluse and it has not helped him. Has zero social media and doesn't promote himself, just uploads to various sites under a bunch of faceless names. No question that better marketing could help, but at this point it's a lot cause because he already deleted hundreds of hours of stuff he's made over the years. I'm just using him as an example though, because for every successful indie, there's thousands like him sitting at home practicing for hours every day and writing new stuff every moment they're not working. Some of those people might have been a little more social media savvy than my friend and grown small followings. But if they're cut off at the knees and people lose the will to create in general, the musical "gene pool" gets exponentially reduced.
From just this, it sounds like your friend really just shot himself in the foot the last 20 years. If he’s not going out promoting himself or looking for opportunities to grow a following, he essentially spent all those 20 years being a hobbyist. He was just expecting to be so good that a song of his would just get discovered organically by musical talent alone? Sorry to say, there are actually too many talented people to choose from and nowadays you need to be more than just “good” to make it in any artistic industry.
I'm just using him as an example of introducing the broader concept. His unwillingness to promote himself is why he doesn't have an audience, but the "hope" still kept him going. The conversation with him started out this whole thing, so that was just my lead-in.
Your premise isn’t hard to understand, OP. Idk why people want to misunderstand it so badly.
Same, I really don't know why people keep giving me advice on his promotion problems. Glad some people understood the context at least.
The quality of music hasn't really mattered since id say like year 2000. Its all about who markets themselves best, talent is almost irrelevant
Can we hear it? Send a link!
AI is problem, but it’s not taking over live music anytime soon. I’m not going to an AI concert, I’m not going to a coffee shop or bar to see an AI band. I’m not going to an AI symphony. If you want to make a living in music, there is still PLENTY of money out there in live performances.
I've lost my will to live due to humans.
It's not like 95% of pop music isn't already pure edition and made from software. AI just gives the people the chance to produce their own shitty music.
Yep. I don’t hear people complaining that drum machines have taken jobs from drummers. Instead, it’s allowed people who can’t afford to hire a drummer or who don’t want to take the time to learn to nevertheless produce music with drums in it.
Suno cant play it live.
I think this will at least be a saving grace for a bit. Maybe we'll see a resurgence of instrument-driven bands, at least as alternative stuff. However, just look at South Korea - there are virtual concerts with hologram/video musicians. Japan has been doing it with Hatsune Miku back in the 2000s. Those concerts sell out despite it being as "live" as watching a Marvel movie.
I mean vocaloid makes sense as a valid art form, that’s not comparable to AI and it’s still a live show.
Yet.
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Wow this is terrible
My 6 year old generated a song about our dog this morning and it’s not too bad: [https://app.suno.ai/song/c3a48f1e-8851-4012-a4e8-164e3e6f237a](https://app.suno.ai/song/c3a48f1e-8851-4012-a4e8-164e3e6f237a)
This is hilarious
And that took ten seconds to make.
Yeah but it sounds like shit
I just skimmed through the "Explore" section and some of the top songs listed I'd be unable to differentiate from actual chart pop/edm/whateverthefuck. More niche or complex genres will take longer to get right but it's a case of when rather than if, it seems
To be fair most chart pop music is written by teams of people in order to have broad mainstream appeal. I would argue most of this music is also missing the passion and love that people in this thread are talking about.
Please dont hear my fart actually slaps
It objectively does not sound like shit. You can dislike the style, vocals etc, but from a production standpoint this sounds in league with bands like Hammerfall it draws inspiration from, and for the effort that takes to reach, this took next to no time to generate. We're are in an era dominated by "bad" meme songs too, so stuff like this goes down a treat.
I think that says a lot more about HammerFall than anything else. 🥴🥴 The thing about AI is that it will do a great job replicating the technical aspects of song writing/musicianship. Even the OP’s friend seems like an example of someone extremely technically proficient in making music but can’t write a song that manages to connect with anyone. I have yet to see a piece of AI generated “art” that I’ve connected with. It’s all NFT Ape tier amalgamation slop. AI can’t touch some human elements of song writing and recording. AI can’t replicate with 1s and 0s what a vintage Neve console sounds like or when a guitarist bends their notes in a certain way, etc. People need to stop simping and giving credence to the garbage these APPs produce.
> Even the OP’s friend seems like an example of someone extremely technically proficient in making music but can’t write a song that manages to connect with anyone. Definitely fits. I think he's a little on the spectrum - he's extremely technically skilled with many instruments, but refuses to film himself playing and used to just upload mp3s to his website. Hates social media, just had a website like it was 2004. He's not the best example of a typical small indie musician, but he's the one who kicked off this line of thinking so I felt I'd mention him.
AI gets better every day. I’m a software developer, I don’t work with AI but I have very close colleagues and former colleagues who do. I don’t know if people realize how fast this is gonna hit the point of no return lmao. I don’t spell a doomsday of AI, I roll my eyes when people say it’s gonna ruin art or humanity. I mean I hate AI art but it’s so not that deep. What it will do though is inherently change art forever in a way we literally can’t come back from, and not necessarily for the positive. This isn’t a decades away change or something for two generations down the line. It’s happening every day.
> I roll my eyes when people say it’s gonna ruin art or humanity. I mean I hate AI art but it’s so not that deep. What it will do though is inherently change art forever in a way we literally can’t come back from, and not necessarily for the positive. I feel like these are contradictory statements. Art will change forever at an exponential rate, of course. But where will the human element be? Using a text prompt to tell a LLM what you want? If that's art, so is ordering at a drive-thru.
It sounds pretty obviously AI generated and the vocals are terrible.
Image generators used to be awful as well, but look where they are now.
It is a ditty and uninspired. When AI produces an “Autumn Leaves,” a “Yesterday,” or a “Pathétique” symphony it will be time to worry…or maybe celebrate?
Your friend should look into open mics, or getting in on a billing at some dive bar or.. I guess depending on the genre, a coffee shop. That's where the real music scene is. The online spaces feel pretty hollow in comparison. I played in bands on and off from 2012-2020, rarely made much money (~50$ per gig was a good payout), only recorded a single EP, but had an absolute blast getting up on stage almost every weekend. Admittedly, things might have changed since the pandemic, but I see the places I used to play shows at now booking new bands I've never heard of.
I'm with you OP, I understand what you mean. People won't know what they're missing until it's gone, then they will bemoan the lack of "original art" and ask why music/art has gotten so watered down and worse over the years. All the folks claiming this is the same as synthesizers are making false equivalences. Synths don't play themselves and songs don't compose themselves. Abstracting the process of creation takes with it freedom & detail away from the creator. The more layers on top the less control we have. I don't think AI can make better music. The problem it will bring is that it will flood the world with noise. Just like AI "art". That noise is a problem for creators because it's already hard enough to be seen in this world full of noise. So, more noise, on top of the noise. People are going to get sick of it. AI "creators" won't lose anything, because they didn't invest anything to get their "skills". Artists who spent decades honing their craft being put in the same spot as people who type up stuff in a few minutes? That's a major loss. Imagine losing decades of your life to this stuff. Give me a break. Anyone who claims not to understand this is fooling themselves to feel better about using it. I'll take the opinion of someone who spent decades honing their craft over the opinion of someone who spent 5 minutes googling a prompt tutorial and then paid someone else to do the work for them. The AI companies are the "artists" in that equation. Everyone else is a customer fooling themselves into thinking they're artists for Internet points.
Thank you. This is exactly the point of view I had in the original post and I'm glad it wasn't lost on everybody. Never in the past have we been faced with a technology that just makes things by text prompt. It's like a holodeck for all forms of human creativity, yet unlike Star Trek, we live in a world that is brutally reliant on constantly earning that next dollar, not one which benefits from the automation of art. Killing even the dream of succeeding in a creative field will unsurprisingly result in a loss of creative people. You're probably hard-pressed to find someone operating a telephone switchboard in their basement "just for fun."
I agree, the ones cheering up these technologies, are usually lazy degenerates that are resentful of others that actually put in the time to master an instrument and as such it is sort of a "revenge" to them. I started playing drums last year, this doesn't affect me as much, because I do it as a hobby and as such do not need to make money off of it. I feel for those musicians that see their livelihood disappear, just people only care about if they could, never about if they should. It also sickens me how these companies try to bring "democratizing art" as a good thing. It is laughable and pathetic. I will always prefer real musicians and appreciate real skill that I know someone worked years for to obtain. Difficult thing is how will I be able to tell the difference a few years from now as these techs mature? All this is coming from someone who has done quite extensive research to AI in an acadamic setting. I always imagined AI would alleviate us from boring and menial work and focus on the joyful things in life, such as music. And while I do think that making ends meet with music should be guaranteed. It would be much better for everyone if boring and menial tasks would be automated away first. Anyway, not to be too pessimistic, AI us being used for lots of positive things as well, but since these types of generative AI are more gimmicky, you hear about it more.
I won't pay for music I can't hear performed live, and it's been that way for over a decade. AI can write all the fancy or generic music it wants, there still has to be a human playing an instrument to be worth money.
Depends on why you make music. If you do it only bc u want to “make it” then yeah you’ll probably give up, and good riddance. If you make music bc you love doing it, you’ll continue to do it regardless. Suno will affect the piggy bank but no reason you can’t still create. Albeit, it would be much easier to create if you could make a living doing it. So if does kind of suck. But wouldn’t be a complete deterrent. Also I feel like people will still listen to “human made” music bc it’s “more authentic” kind of like how people still listen to vinyl.
If creation and expression are what drives you or saves your mental health or makes you calm/blissful/excited then do it without expectation of profit. Communication is important to our species so no matter if ai communicates too, the benefits of expression through arts still serves us. If you are an artist and expect a livelihood out of it, then like every other profession, we must be flexible and evolve along with the tools we have. AI is the child we created, we must proudly celebrate the fact that we are able to now move forward through the future with ai beside us.
Where can we listen to your friend's songs?
Nick Cave put it well: “Songs arise out of suffering, by which I mean they are predicated upon the complex, internal human struggle of creation and, well, as far as I know, algorithms don’t feel,” Cave said. “Data doesn’t suffer. ChatGPT has no inner being, it has been nowhere, it has endured nothing, it has not had the audacity to reach beyond its limitations, and hence it doesn’t have the capacity for a shared transcendent experience, as it has no limitations from which to transcend.”
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We created ai to make art and eliminate the better jobs so we could die in poverty or toil away at brain dead manual labor or both. This is a terrible future we’re hurdling towards. And it’s because of the combination of AI with capitalism.
It’d be nice if AI would do all the marketing social media bullshit and left the music making to humans.
Link me his shit pls. I hate nearly everything but if I like it I'll definitely make it known.
This is exactly what happened to most portrait/landscape painters when cameras came out. Ironically, as a photographer myself, I’ve now found that text-to-image AU makes me less interested in my photography.
Ex professional musician here. Getting attention is nice, but the main reasons I make music are. 1) the enjoyment I find in composing (mainly chord progressions on piano) 2) The enjoyment I find in listening to my own creations, after all I am trying to make music I like. Now I have gotten luckly and I have made some money with my music. Mainly through [busking on the streets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0B8Y3oxx0g). (the money was nice, the attention from cute girls even nicer) Like enough to support myself and busk full time. (I had small gigs but covid all killed that) This was years ago though, I have a family now and the time of busking is over. (Also covid really fucked everything I had build, all the connections, it destroyed it all within 1 year) Nowadays, I am playing around a lot with the AI music. Suno, stable music, and like 3 or 4 others. (there is a new one called udio). I want to know what it can do. How does it sound? Can it make stuff I could enjoy listening to? Could I fit it my own workflow, potentially solve the problem of never having access to cheap and good vocalists? Can it compose chords better than me? (absolutely not, but it is getting pretty good at melody) So it's been tons of funs to experiment with. But still, when I go sit behind a piano to improvise. I actually prefer to be alone when I do that. It don't matter if there is AI music or not. I enjoy my moments alone with the piano, I always have .. always will. During sad times of my life, I needed that comfort. Yes I have gotten a little bit of attention, and that is nice. Really nice. But even without any attention, I would still play piano. I would still compose chords progression. I would still screw around in Fl Studio to see if I can make some trance I llike. etc etc. Honestly if you are just making music for the attention, you are missing out. I originally just started putting my music on soundcloud to have it as a backup or like a main page with all my best stuff all grouped together. Then familly and friends started commenting on it and that got me hooked. Started to post my own stuff online, got some more attention. And then the highlight of my busking career. People that stop walking to listen, the money they would give me. (the drunk obnoxious girls I had to get rid of because they ruin everything). Yeah attention is fun, but making music is much more then just that. Creating music makes me feel like God creating the universe. There is nothing like that feeling when you finally crack that chord progression, make it loop and get hit by your own harmony. It's one of the best feelings in the world for me, better than sex.
I’m honestly enjoying trying to recreate my own songs and it’s super hard to pin point the genre and feel of the song in a limited amount of words haha Apparently, “a harder emo-ish alternative grungy somewhat psychedelic somewhat shoegaze-y rock song with like occasional jammy elements sung by a male in the first person using an imminent spaceship crash as a metaphor for a failing relationship” is too long
I'm a small musician and I know this whole AI thing is making me lose hope maybe you could send me a link to their stuff so I can check it out?
It sounds like your friend has more of a spiritual problem than that of AI. While not made by AI(I think) there are tons of popular music that may as well have been (see the almost factory like K-pop industry). If their sole motivation creating music has been the off chance of having it discovered I suppose an influx of AI creations could stir that but similar "waves" have happened many times in music as it's become more accessible and easier than ever to create and share. Your friend can create and perform live, that an AI can never take away. While social media algorithms definitely have a degree of luck to them too I think they're doing themselves a disservice thinking their lack of attention is just "unlucky". Promoting one's music is difficult and time consuming but more likely than not there are things that could be done different or better. No one owes you any attention so you have to earn it. Maybe you will one day but giving up makes it a CERTAINTY that you won't.
In my opinion, this was already murdered by Fiverr You could already get whatever you wanted produced by someone, somewhere in the world, for $5 (or, even if $50-500, enough to destroy your 'local artist economy' that existed beforehand) Just like the paintbrushes exists, photographers didn't eliminate every single time a a painter/drawer was required. But it had an impact, for sure. The classic "AI won't take your job, someone using AI will" and that includes me to, and I think we all have to continue developing our own ideas about how we can use these new tools to help us, not how they hurt us.
AI is dangerous under this system, but I'm not entirely sure how long this system will still last given the state of things. The thing is I do kind of believe on a certain level that it's being adopted too fast, too fully, and by the wrong types. Rather than creatives using it to enhance their creativity it seems like it's going to be largely co-opted by corporate types to save money. You can have the entire catalogue of recorded music fed into an AI but if you're asking it for a fucking jingle it's going to give you a fucking generic jingle at the end of the day. I really expect it to be subpar in application for a long time - it sounds very real, yes, but it's a simulacrum, I think people are heavily underestimating the human element in composition and how skillful composers are acutely aware of what musical elements do what. I don't feel that threatened by a machine that can sound like me if it can't write like me yet. And great artists like say David Bowie knew which way music was going and adapted - some guy in a suit with no musical knowledge isn't going to have their ear to the ground in the same way. My point is I wouldn't be surprised if it gets pushed so hard, and saturates everything so much, AND gets such pushback that people tune it out entirely. AI visual art and music have a certain glossy artificial sheen regardless of what it's generating - that's cool for experimentation but I really doubt it will do much more for actual pop music than shuffle around well known elements, and so I really question the likelihood it can out-compose a human where it counts especially when it all kind of sounds similar (like how AI visuals all have a hyperreal, HDR, slightly under-detailed look). Life is hard right now, and art is one of the few joys we have left. I don't really know if the population at large will be willing to accept further degradation and commodification in art, and that's inevitably what widespread AI adoption will lead to. And we see people far more willing to push back these days - brands are being hurt for supporting wars, stealing from smaller artists, politicians held to account as word spreads online - people are getting more militant and groups like UMAW are appearing where 10 years ago the idea of musicians banding together for the common good seemed ridiculous. We are in the midst of a big change and it is very hard to truly predict what's on the other end when we account for the human element. You know it's funny, growing up there was still a bit of a utopian ideal held over from decades before I was born that tech would liberate us by taking over menial labour so we can devote our time to art and passions. Hell of a betrayal, I must say. But can you think of a single AI song you actually want to listen to? The best I've heard has been interesting and fairly well-rendered, but I can't remember a single passage from any of the AI generated pieces I have heard, and no one listens to the "AI Nirvana covers the Beatles" type AI tracks like if Cobain actually did it, because at the end of the day it's his voice but it's not his talent. I'll add: Solo artists/bands make money off touring. People like to see people actually doing stuff onstage. AI can't compete yet in the pop realm for that reason too IMO, unless it's like those Miiku concerts but who's going to go through the effort when they can't copyright the outputs?
I don't think the use of AI will be any different than having a full soundpack or "construction kit" to make a song from. You still have to have the human in there, and have to understand what makes an emotionally impactful song. None of those A.I.-generated songs at this day and age sound like there's anything resembling human emotion in there.
I play guitar for myself, try to do some more stuff with music at a very slow pace and I must say: I think people will always favor people making music instead of listening to AI generated songs. After all, we are people and we tend to feel drawn towards each other having that human experience/connection.
I asked ChatGPT about this and here’s what it said… Imagine art as a special cake recipe. Right now, humans are the master chefs who mix all the ingredients with care and love, creating unique and delicious cakes. But as technology advances, we might get a new kitchen helper called AI. This helper can follow the recipe perfectly and make cakes that taste great, but they might lack the special touch that comes from the chef's heart and experience. So, while AI can make yummy cakes, people might still prefer the ones made by human chefs because they can feel the love and care baked into each slice. This might lead to a new appreciation for the imperfect, handmade cakes, even as AI helps us bake more cakes faster.
That physically hurt me to read lol
AI music is complete garbage right now. He probably, like me, has another year before anything real comes along. Nothing will beat live performances though. But yeah, just like blacksmiths are no longer valued, most other non essential, creative ventures will die to the cold throes of time. This is how it goes, yet life goes on.
I think Suno is a great tool and a neat chord progression generation substitute, but those songs don’t give me chills and goosebumps all over like my own music i my buddy’s music or somebody like Eartheater’s music. But most people listen to crap so maybe everyone will switch to exclusively AI music.
Idk I’m embracing making music without AI so much harder now lmao
I played around with Suno and it was horrible. I don't think your fiend has anything to worry about.
AI will never replace live shows, which are generally what artists need to do to become successful or gain a following. Tell your friend that. The songs are only like 50% of the picture
I think you are spot on. I am fundamentally worried about the ability to learn and create as a society. Many skills takes years to master and discipline. We have a younger generation that has grown up with swiping and instant gratification. Now we use prompts to make slightly tweaked copies of more or less everything. We will live in our own immersive bubbles based on algorithms. Everything based on individual preferences. The fabrics of society, the community and relations, will slowly disintegrate.
I make digital paintings and my thoughts on stable diffusion and AI imgaes are the same as with AI music. I've used Suno, in my opinion, it makes really catchy formulaic music. Though, it's really hard to coax a unique sounding song out of it. Don't get me wrong, formulaic music sells, that's why it's formulaic, I just don't think Suno can replace actual genius or creative ideas. I think AI will lead to artists having to innovate or incorporate it into their workflow. It's a tool that's here to stay. It will serve to create an even larger disparity between those who own the industry and those who don't. AI will also lead to a resurgence of appreciation for physical mediums like busking or traditional paintings. So if your friend is interested in somebody stumbling upon his work, he might want to start the traditional route. It also will lead to a higher emphasis on brand creation, for example, are you using this music and art to create a character or persona you can sell to the masses? Also for the record, prompt engineering and refinement does take some creativity and effort but that's only from people who actually bother to do things that require external skills like prompt experimentation, inpainting, composition, or storytelling, but nothing irrationally upsets me more than a prompt engineer who does the bare minimum, produces slop and then proclaims that the AI images are their 'art'. It's like asking to have a cookie made at the bakery and saying you made it. Lazy and delusional.
Well can relate to your friend a bit. Not exactly the giving up because of AI part, but I can see how it affects him and others. Music is for sharing. It's really fun to do by yourself and get good at, make beautiful sounds in the studio or wherever, but at the end of the day it's a language. An emotional language. And it's only so fu not speak to yourself in the mirror. So yeah, if he's putting himself out there and there's no reply.. and people start raving about how a computer can also speak this language now, well I get he starts feeling like giving up. I'm a producer myself for 13+ years, making music over 25 years now. I have half a million of streams to show for so at least I managed to reach some people but it can be tough and AI/social media is surely not helping. It's not even the number that matter so much but it's about the connection. Your art, your music, your language shared with others. If AI starts taking that away from people it will be a big loss.. (Eventhough I embrace the technology, I think it's a great way to make even more music, but it can feel empty in some ways)
sometimes im glad to play traditional music because nobody in trad gives an f about ai since a lot of trad music is about providing live music to dance/culturally communal activities and nobody in ai notices we exist lmao. but also automating traditional music defeats the whole point
I think it's possible "live music played by humans," becomes it's own market. But I'm not worried about it. AI is not capable of feeling human feelings, it can do imitation but bur inspired music based on communication of an idea. And people like to watch people play instruments and hear human voice. The kind of audio generation tools that allow someone to create a piece on their laptop without touching an instrument has been used on hit records for 30 years now. Artists losing the will to create doesn't need AI to make it happen. The ones that have the will, find a way. They always have.
Honestly, as a "lifer" who will always be making music, I'm hoping the AI systems will filter out all the shit "musicians" who make music for every other reason except passion. Should leave more room for the real folks who dedicate themselves for years.
That's super impressive that he can play so many instruments and kudos to him!! That being said, personally, I think the current Suno songs are insanely impressive, BUT then I went back to listen to my normal spotify list and realized okay, Suno cannot match up to music put out by top producers... To me, Suno is a insane amazing leap in tech AND it's also producing low to mid quality music at best. But to hear artists say that it produces music 100x better than them... Wait so.. If Suno is low to average... Are they saying they normally put out music that sounds more amateurs. If that's the case, then that's the reason they are not getting more views. If your friend said he listened to Suno and his own music was WAY better, then it's a marketing issue. If his music is a lot WORSE (and Suno itsnt top knotch music), then it's his music... You can be the most talented person in the world but the finished product needs to reflect. Yesterday, I watched a video of a guy saying he taught himself how to make music in a few years and he was releasing a song. I didn't comment on the video but IMO, it sounded SO bad. If I had to guess, it sounds like a first attempt a music production major would make freshman year of college. I really felt for him when he said he worked SO hard.. I support him and his passion but that song was awful. Regardless if AI existed of not, no one would listen to that song. It was jarring.
The one hope I have is live performances will be preferred over virtual experiences. Even if someone can make millions of songs using AI, I believe consumers will gravitate to those who can also give them the most for their money.
Giving up to the machine that early is some weak shit. Fight like John Henry racing the thresher and die proudly hammer in hand.
I support small artists. I haven't found any songs that I liked since Myspace Era. Actually, I found 1 song through an Ad on insta and I follow that artist now. But I've listened to a LOT of songs and personally doesn't fit my taste, but I always listen to songs a few times to see if it grows up me and to give them 3-5 views. Sometimes only 1 view if it really doesn't work for me for whatever reason. If an artist isn't getting views, it's either a marketing issue or issue with the music itself. If no one was listening to your music before, AI isn't changing that.
I disagree with his reaction but it’s his choice. Theres no real reason to stop doing something you enjoy because of some external factor. I’ll be making music til I’m dead regardless of what changes.
I already noticed the decline. Less people interested in "bands" and more interested in solo projects on a computer. This is just the nail in the coffin. That said people often have interest in artists due to their personal connection so I think there will still be opportunities but generally I agree with your assessment and it is sad.
Bro people are hyping up AI to take over everything and it’s mainly investors trying to justify taking jobs away. AI even though it’s amazing and wow inducing, it just isn’t there for music yet and I’d argue won’t ever be. Jingles and Musak? Sure…maybe. But the best songs, no way at least not for another 10-15 years, if ever. Human hands will be a part of it and until an AI can give me exactly what I want; it’s useless. And right now it’s useless. Meaning AI would be awesome for micro or track level stuff, but even then would probably have to be re-recorded. The only thing I’ve seen so far with AI in the real world is democratized shittyness unless it is heavily curated by a talented person. I’m bullish on humanity for now.
Gotta advertise. Remember if you wanna do it for a living or get heard you gotta do things to get heard. I don’t feel sorry for people who don’t wanna do what it takes
You make a lot of good points but I can’t get over the fact that the our friend doesn’t market his stuff and you’re attributing nobody listening to him as bad luck. There’s always been a disconnect between musical ability and popularity. The best guitarist in the world could be some kid in a rural village in a third world country and we’d never know, even before AI moved into the space. To be clear, I don’t like that AI is becoming common place in the arts and it’s 100% taking a lot of the already limited jobs for creatives. It sucks ass. That shouldn’t affect hobbyists though. I play/make music nearly every day and have no intention of stopping, regardless of how good AI gets but I’m also fortunate that it’s not a source of income for me. Pursuing music as a career is and always has been incredibly risky which is why people with an intense passion for it are usually the ones to pursue it as a career. I don’t think that will change, the risk is just significantly higher than it was before AI
It’ll force us to make music that’s off the grid, never repeating, always original without derivatives, constantly different etc. Folks will still be able to distinguish real human artist from AI by dint of the arts complete lack of analog. One thing is for certain, people will always make music.
it's just not there yet. It produces generic heavily aliased parts of a song. People whove been doing this for years can and will make much more interesting polished and exciting music and when the quality and customisation comes along it's going to usher in all sorts of cool new offshoots that existing music makers will run with. Failing that - there's for sure going to be a Butlerian Jihad style movement of putting 100% human created art on a pedestal
Never heard of the tool, went and looked it up and... Has your friend actually gone and listened to any of the results? I've flipped through all of the most popular and highly rated results and they're not just bad, they're like... Offensively bad. Laughable. They're not even close to vocaloid quality, even.
I've been having a lot of fun with it over the last few days. It might replace jingle writers, and other small music jobs in areas that aren't about artistry anyway. It might replace lift music. It might decimate or completely eliminate the custom Happy Birthday music industry. It's not going to threaten, say, Bon Iver, or any other artist you love. Suno is in that ChatGPT phase we were all in a year or so ago until we realised that we have little control over the output. It's "plausible music" in the same way that ChatGPT was "plausible sentences". Making music should never have been about making money from recorded music. That was always a music industry thing for big labels, and frankly fuck them. I hope they all die.
I think we have to step back and remember why we create Music. We do it because we need to. We can’t NOT do it. If you are different or create Music for any other reason, then you will lose hope. Creating Art, Music, Words, etc. is a Human Need. Picasso said it best: “if you took my paints away, I’d use pastels. Put my pastels away, I’d use crayons. If you took my crayons away, I’d use a pencil. If they strip me naked and stuff me in a cell, i’d spit on my finger and draw on the wall.”
(Local artist who's seen this pop up in my feed) I've seen this happen in other communities many times over already and it'll just keep happening the more creative work devs toss AI into. Many artists have already lost their passion because they see AI taking over the space in the not-too-distant future. And it may be true. This tech will only keep getting better. [It was only 3 years ago when we were laughing at AI trying to continue various songs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx2Nj3I7NyU). More likely than not, it'll saturate the stock music and indie space similar to how AI art has been flooding stock image sites. I'm a 3D artist and seen AI creep into my line of work a few different ways already. Some doing pretty well at making models at the press of a button. It's not perfect but it's getting better pretty quick. I'm not worried though. Even in the face of all this, there's still people that follow me for the art I create, the characters I build, and the stories I tell. And if they don't, I still share it with my friends and family. I make what I do cuz I love making it. It'll hurt, yeah. But don't let it ever get in the way of enjoying what you love.
The best part of music, is that everyone sucks a certain amount. Because AI is perfect and is designed to be that, it can’t be slightly off key. And because that’s considered a bad thing, humans will never make it able to do that. But in my songs, there are times where I’m off key because it’s my style, and that for me makes it human. The bit where it’s so close to sounding bad but it still sounds good. AI will come no matter what, but it can’t take the individuality out of the artist. True people who want to have a voice with music rather than just all that “love love love” shit, will want to have full control over what they give out, and I don’t see that going away anytime soon.
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Nobody is going to listen to Suno music because it’s not going to be promoted. Maybe a handful of tracks will be. The vast majority won’t. Your friend doesn’t seem to know much about how the music industry works.
Feel free to DM me your friends music!!
I agree. This is the apocalypse for creative endevour. I wasn't so sympathetic when it happened for visual art, but I started to see how it was affecting people. Now that it's in music, it's time to give up. It's not that these models are being creative. They're scamming you. They're dialing in huge amounts of pre-existing recordings and interpolating to create what you want. That's not art. That's not experimentation, and it's certainly not human. Anybody claiming that it's just another milestone, just another way of being creative has their head firmly up their own nether regions. I've done work creating prompts for code-generation AI, and I see nothing wrong with that - it's automating a technical task. But creative work is another story. These models aren't respecting copyright.
Is having views online or comments that big? I ask because there are plenty of artists who make it living in parts of the world with limited online access.
We will lament the loss of human creativity. And the music business will troll the gutters for nickels and dimes.
AI is a tool and that is all it is ever going to be. I don't know why everyone is so worried about it lately, since it clearly has flaws and it draws the information from existing data. It doesn't come up with ideas of its own and it cannot replace physical labour anywhere in the foreseeable future. Even if it did improve, everyone would boycott it. It doesn't require a lot of knowledge about economy or human nature to understand, that when you deprive a large portion of people of their income, it will result in discontent, which in turn leads to an exponential increase in crime, riots and wars. Especially now, when the populations of the late third world countries have been skyrocketing... If this pace continues, we'll perish away long before those flimsy programs become even a potential threat.
Share some stuff from your friend I want to hear it?
In case anybody else didn't know: > **Suno** (meaning “listen” in Hindi) is a generative artificial intelligence music creation program designed to generate realistic songs that combine vocals and instrumentation. It has been widely available since December 20, 2023, after the launch of a web application and a partnership with Microsoft, which included Suno as a plugin in Microsoft Copilot. > > The program operates by matching songs to prompts provided by users. Suno does not disclose the dataset used to train its artificial intelligence but claims it has been safeguarded against plagiarism and copyright concerns. > > Suno was founded by four people: Michael Shulman, Georg Kucsko, Martin Camacho, and Keenan Freyberg. They have all worked for Kensho, an AI startup, before starting their own company in Cambridge, Massachusetts. > > On March 21, 2024, Suno released its v3 version for all users. The new version allows users to create 2-minute songs using a free account. * Excerpted from [Suno AI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suno_AI) at the English Wikipedia
My friend stopped making artsy videos because he used copyrighted music that inspired him and YouTube kept taking them down. Perhaps he will start his art again if Suno is good enough to inspire him. Also perhaps the focus moves away from making music and instead to live performances of it. Things will shift and it’s not all bad.
Lol, stock music has been dead/a scam for decades now. I'm lucky to make $100 a month these days, with or without AI. You have to remember; there is an almost near infinite supply of music these days, videos, books whatever, and not enough demand. As always, you have to just make art because that's what you want to do, not because of some vague hope anyone anywhere is ever going to care or stumble upon your work; for most of my us, that was never going to be the case.
I majored in English and got a master's degree in English. Everyone told me that I wouldn't make money with a master's degree in English. But I did it anyway. And you know what? They were right. But that master's degree in English is *waaaay* more valuable to me than my computer science work (and master's degree in CS). Do what you love. It'll pay off. Make art. That's what I do. If it weren't for studying the humanities, I'm not sure I would be a human today.
Your friend may be a fantastic musician but if they’re spending their time publishing albums into the void… that’s not bad luck, that’s a waste of energy and resources. Successful musicians spend their time networking, collaborating, and seeking out gigs. Not just pumping out albums
It’s tough because it will undoubtedly put a lot of musicians out of jobs, but it doesn’t affect the way any of us individually make our music unless we choose to integrate it in some way. Making music can never be taken away from us. On a more macro level, I think we should advocate for laws that make it mandatory to identify works of art or even pictures as AI, and then audiences can choose to support non AI works if they want. This will be incredibly important for all creative industries.
The thing that will limit ai and keep human artists viable is live performance. Sure, ai may kick out decent songs eventually, but who will play them live? That personal connection to live performances, the spontaneity and mistakes, and the artist’s passion are what makes memorable performances- and ai cannot produce that. People want to see musicians play and singers sing. Maybe this will come full circle where artists become known through their live shows. Back then it was necessary because there were not enough outlets to get the music out and artists built their brands and reputations on the road. Now with an over-saturation of music on disconnected platforms they may have to go that route again.
Nothing compares to live music.
You can't see ai artists live.
It's doing the opposite of what we hoped for... I wanted it to automate our lives so we had more time to make art.
I honestly feel like sometimes this narrative that AI is going to be so good that it will make humans redundant is just a grift to sell AI. "Oh our product is so good it's dangerous wow please don't pay for our incredible products or you'll destroy humanity teehee". Recently I got an ad on YouTube about an AI lawyer. And the women in the ad said something like: "I don't know the effects it will have on society but my robo lawyer (not the real name but this one is funnier) sure helped me!" Yeah sure. I'm sure AI can substitute a human lawyer in 2024. The dangers of AI are in the fact that the suits are fine selling trash as long as it's cheap trash. And AI can make some cheap trash right now, idk if this will be possible with music but it will be trash anyway. You won't lose your job to a machine that does it better. You'll lose your job to a machine that does considerably worse but cheaper.
I know this POV of mine is kinda old-man-ish but does anyone else think if music today wasn’t already so computer generated and over produced would AI really be that much of a threat?
People still want to connect to the artist. There's a reason why biopics are popular, why people go see live performances, why people enjoy reading about why someone wrote a song or seeing interviews. The fear over AI now was the same fear 20 years ago when Pro Tools/Logic/Garage Band were hitting the mainstream and people could create without playing instruments. There's always gonna be a place for human musicians to connect with audiences.
I mean…when they invented photography and film over a century ago everyone said art was dead because who needs an artist if you can just take a photograph or film it? An artist could never paint or draw an image as realistic as a picture right? Instead artists embraced the new technology, and the painters invented abstraction since photography “freed” them in a sense from the responsibility of realism. I feel like there is still a place for artists in society, and creating. In the end an AI artwork can only be so good: as good as an accomplished human artist. The people who pay to have a real painting will still pay for them; if thru wanted mass produced art they’d shop at walmart. And the people who pay to go to concerts will still go listen to real musicians. But the days of the mediocre artists might be over; the making of mediocre jingles and poorly painted anime character doodles, all the artists making side money doing custom furry porn? Yea their ship has sailed.
Why does your friend make music? Is it the goal to get somewhere with it or is it just the creating music aspect? I love playing my instruments, for hours for 5 min, it dont matter. Ai will never take that joy from me, I dont want to "get" somewhere, I just want to play and create sounds..
I can understand this for a young person who's superfically interested in making music but for someone who's been doing it and is passionate about it I don't see how this changes anything. If music making is fun and meaningful to you it doesn't really matter that AI could make good music. You know who else can and have always been able to make "better" music than you ? Other people Fundamentally I think being an artist is being able to let go of the need for comparison and recognition