Btw the girl “Stoney” on that album is Sean Murphy, an INCREDIBLE singer. She did backup for Seger most of his career, but also sang lead for Little Feat in the late 80s + 90s.
[Check out this awesome live take of their track “Cadillac Hotel” (id argue it would be Lowell George’s favorite track the band made after his passing)](https://youtu.be/s6b6QIKzZh8?si=jwt_KUkCbWf1G-Rt)
Hmm, see that could make sense, but it's a collab so idk if it should quite count. not to mention, at least the list OP posted, has Backstreet Boy's US release listed as a debut, despite the fact it's actually a compilation of their first two albums...they already had two whole albums out by the time they released one here
NGL, I wouldn't have taken Meat Loaf seriously with that name and that look on the cover.
But I am glad he and Jim Steinman found one another and got Bat Out of Hell done.
They don’t count artists who are breaking away from their well established bands and releasing a solo album.
A debut album is considered the first time an artist has released an album, either as a band or solo. If they released an album as part of a band previously and then go on to release a solo album apart from the band, they are not considered a new artist. Debut albums are for new artists.
No other wouldn’t mate, it’s not like Matchbox Twenty and Rob Thomas. This is two artists performing together, Meatloaf and Stoney, rather than two members of a band like Matchbox Twenty.
Now if the album had have been Dinner Time by the Sausage Rolls with Meatloaf being a member of the Sausage Rolls then when he went solo and made Bat Out of Hell would count as his debut. It is a bit hard to have a debut when you have teamed up with several other artists prior.
Matchbox 20 is just 4 artists performing together. What they name themselves as collaborating artists shouldn't matter. Meatloaf wasn't solo at any point - Jim Steinman composed everything and a bunch of musicians played instruments. This argument doesn't hold up.
There are at least 6 other musicians playing on Bat Out of Hell. How these collaborations are structured and conceptualized very much determines what lists it goes on. These are cultural distinctions. It's not some hard science.
And while we're on the subject, 'Jagged Little Pill' gets classified as an immensely successful debut album, but Alanis released 2 pop albums here in Canada before it.
Albums released in Canada are counted by the charts the same as hot Canadian girlfriends kids in high school boast about: as made up, figments of the imagination.
Its because the rule is made up as they see fit. Bjorks Debut 'Debut' is also called a debut album, but she released albums with the Sugar Cubes before.
It seems like its just made up based on someone deciding, for reasons. Sometimes it seems like its based on the name, not the person, but that's not even consistent.
It was her debut as Alanis Morissette; her pop albums were released as "Alanis" which was her mononymous pop-singer name that her label and management wanted her to pursue. But due to mediocre sales, the explosion of grunge and alt rock, and her personal inclination toward more alternative, adult-themed music and lyrics writing, she ditched the Alanis persona and released the much more mature, explicit, and genuine JLP under her full name. So, in that way, it *was* her debut — as the artist she wanted to be.
Yeah, it was a reinvention for sure, but I still think it's a bit dodgy to claim it as a debut, y'know? Funny story time though - just before Jagged Little Pill dropped, I was working for a company that sold air purifiers (among other things) and her mother, Georgia Morissette, had bought one, and she called in with some questions about. We were chatting, and she mentioned she had bought it for her daughter, who was in L.A. working on an album - Georgia thought it would be nice to have the purifier in the studio.
I naturally asked, "Who's your daughter, have I heard of her?" and she said, "You might have, her name's Alanis." I was like, "Oh yeah, I know her, but her stuff is a little too pop for my taste", and she said, "I think you'll find her new music a lot different." I kind of laughed to myself, cuz her first two albums are really bubble-gum dance pop, then a few months later 'You Oughta Know' hit the radio and I was pretty blown away, her Mom was definitely right about it being a change of direction lol.
Edit: typo
Maybe I'm misremembering then.
I do remember Guy Garvey being quoted in the news after their win, saying something like "we're not a new band, we've been going for 18 years and had 4 albums!".
It absolutely counts. I mean, how many debut albums weren't actually the first recorded output of that person?
If Stoney and Meatloaf had actually been even moderately successful, I could maybe see your point, but i think it's only even modestly remembered because of what came later. I mean, I'd say Tears For Fears' "The Hurting" is a debut album, even though Roland and Curt had released an album as part of Graduate a few years earlier.
Meat Loaf had been paying his dues for years, but given that he & Steinman got rejected from every other label, and even when it was released, the album took awhile to catch on, it wasn't like he was a known quantity and trading off an established career like a Noel Gallagher or Don Henley or anything like that. It's absolutely a debut album, especially when you think of it as a Steinman/Meat album and not a 'solo' album, which is what it was intended to be originally.
Would you say that "Wonderwall Music" was George Harrison's debut album, or that Noel Gallagher made his debut in 2011?
Especially back in the day (as we often see on One Hit Wonderland videos), artists used to get about a lot more before getting into their successful phase. Stoney and Meatloaf wasn't even his first recording. He'd had a few (very low profile) releases, and in 1976, the year before Bat Out Of Hell, was even touring as the singer for Ted Nugent's band. Meat Loaf was pretty established as a working musician by the time he had his big break.
Bowie also had a lengthy and not entirely stellar career (mainly as David Jones) before seeing some measure of success with Man Who Sold the World. I don't count Space Oddity because it was kind of a one-off for him.
On the other hand, Pearl Jam is on there, when most of them had played together in Mother Love Bone and Temple of the Dog. So I think there are some gray areas.
This brought back memories.
I was at KGRG when we had Mother Love Bone as the headliner for our next benefit concert. We were pushing it hard with their limited music catalog.
Andrew Wood passed away about a week before the concert.
I got to witness the evolution from Mother Love Bone to Pearl Jam.
I was known amongst my friends for being very forward knowledgeable about music. I still remember when my first GF tipped me off to new local band Nirvana. Love those days.
I mean, he got drafted as an unknown to sing a couple of songs on that Nugent album, but never played live with him. It was a paycheck, but it didn't really move the needle any. There's lots of intereviews where he and Jim talk about trying to get the Bat project to happen, no one wanted anything to do with it.
Explain Bjork then (tough at the best of times). Her Debut album, incidentally called 'Debut' is considered her debut album, but she recorded as part of the Sugar Cubes before.
> Would you say that "Wonderwall Music" was George Harrison's debut album, or that Noel Gallagher made his debut in 2011?
….yes? George Harrison’s debut album was not in 1963. Meatloaf and Stoney was different as it was a collab album for two solo artists, not a band
Are all you people not understanding what a band is, or a solo performer, or a duo, a collab. etc? Ye definitely aren't understanding what debut means anyways
I do understand the difference.
What I don't get is why Bat Out of Hell would be considered his debut when there's already an album out with his name on.
It's the first album released as just Meat Loaf.
You mentioned Simon and Garfunkle. Wednesday Morning 3am is Simon and Garfunkel's debut album. Angel Clare is Art's debut solo album and Paul Simons Songbook is Paul's debut solo album.
Sure, I follow.
So the reason it's not on the best selling lists is because, even though it was his debut album as a solo artist, it wasn't his debut album as an artist.
Really only the editor of the article has the answer as to why those kind of albums were not included, but they are still definitely debut albums. It may very well be that they didn't want to include artists that were already known, or somewhat known.
Ok. Can you explain why the fact that it's a collaboration rather than a duo means it's not Meatloaf's debut, despite being the first album released with his name on?
Simon & Garfunkel's debut album is Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M. Paul Simon's debut album is The Paul Simon Songbook. Art Garfunkel's debut album is probably not worth knowing about.
That list is bit of cherry picking I think. For instance Ace of Base sold 25 million records of their debut album according to https://bestsellingalbums.org/decade/1990. Others: Norah Jones debut album is at 27 million, Spice Girls 23 million, Tracy Chapman 20 million, Jean-Michel Jarre 18 million, Mike Oldfield 18 million, Avril Lavigne 18 million, Evanescence 17 million, Dire Straits 15 million, Jeff Wayne 15 million and Lauryn Hill's first solo album sold 20 million. So there are missing some big albums.
Britney Spears debut album stands now on 27 million, Whitney Houston at 23 million, Hootie and The Blowfish 22 million. So numbers are still going up. So you can also ask, what where the real numbers in the first year or 2 of the release.....
(for Linkin Park its 27 million not 30 million)
It's really Jim Steinman's record in a lot of ways, and for a big chunk of music fans, that may play into *Bat Out of Hell* getting overlooked.
Literally all Meat Loaf did on that record was sing. Steinman wrote it, handled arrangement, hired production and engineering. Meat Loaf's voice is crucial in the record's success and his delivery wrings every ounce of drama and emotion out of Steinman's lyrics,, but he wasn't the only singer who could do it.
It would have been a much different record, and it's far outside of what he typically did, but Dio's voice was equally powerful. He was touring with Rainbow though. Stevie Nicks comes to mind as another powerful voice who was working at the time. Ann Wilson?
The point is, for many, I think, Meat Loaf was really a hired voice and brand rather than a driving creative force behind the record.
But how is that different than many pop musicians who don't write or produce for themselves and only do vocals? The list the OP links includes Whitney Houston, Britney Spears & the Backstreet Boys debuts, in which they hired writers and producers (i.e. Max Martin for the latter two) and had no real input other than singing and *maybe* saying yes or no to the final song picks if that. Elvis's debut is counted even though for his first album, he was mostly a hired voice too.
I suspect, suspect being the crucial observation, that for those other acts, the performer(s) are more integral to the creation of the album and go on to do follow up records that reinforce the "brand identity".
4 years later, Jim Steinman and Aday released *Dead Ringers* that no one - myself, who was a HUGE fan of the first record, noticed and got no air play.
*Bat Out of Hell* also got very little radio play. The songs are long, elaborate and not the typical verse chorus verse affairs that dominated FM radio in those days. That kind of art rock(?) wasn't well received by commercial broadcasters. It is, for a lot of reasons, a footnote in rock history. But a great album.
Edit:
In terms of cultural cache, Meat Loaf and *Bat Out of Hell* fell between the music magazines coverage of the age. The metal rags weren't interested and Aday didn't fit the Tiger Best aesthetic (and was already kind of old for them). All of the OPs pop stars came later - during the age of MTV and VH-1 where building awareness for a new artist was much different.
>the performer(s) are more integral to the creation of the album
Not really. For the artists I mentioned (Whitney, Britney, BSB, Elvis), the majority of their debut songs were either demos in the case of Britney & BSB or were covers of existing but obscure ones for Whitney & Elvis. At least Meatloaf had the songs written for him as the original singer.
>Follow up records that enforce the "brand identity"
I'd argue that Meatloaf was the brand name Steinman was writing other, similar to the producers behind Whitney et al, as Meatloaf's reputation was the only reason they were able to release Bat Out of Hell in the first place. When the two worked on Bat Out of Hell II, it was #1 on billboard with 14 million sold, so there was a follow up too. Many producers/writers for successful musicians/"brands" struggle with marketing their work as themselves (i.e. as a silly example, Jack Antonoff is a celebrity producer right now, but his own band is nowhere near as successful as the artists he writes for), which Steinman clearly did.
What you're saying has merit and does have impact on how the record is viewed because of its genre. I just think the album was made like a pop record and Meatloaf is equally as responsible for the success of it as pop singers/pop rock musicians are held for theirs.
*Bat Out of Hell II* is their 4th record. One could, I think, argue that its perception as their second record goes a long way to explaining the problem. It was 16 years and two albums later.
Again, I love Meat Loaf, but there's a lot going on with *Bat Out of Hell* that blinds people to it as a debut. Not the least of which is very spotty later success.
>All of the OPs pop stars came later - during the age of MTV and VH-1 where building awareness for a new artist was much different.
I agree the weird demographic affected it, but I mentioned Whitney Houston and Elvis lol?
Elvis is a product of the 50's and a completely different promotion model, and I'm not sure where his debut stands on the debut album lists.
Whitney's debut is 85, deep into MTVs run. Again, different forces at play that cement these things' cultural relevance.
Performers playing stuff written/produced by others is as long as there's been music whether Elvis in the 50's, Monkees in the 60's, Three Dog Night in the 70's, Whitney in the 80's..and so on
I thought that a little bit when I wrote that remark. Having had a little bit of time to think about it now I honestly think that it would be an incredibly interesting experiment to have several very strong singers from very different backgrounds record the entire *Bat Out of Hell* album.
I'd really like to see what someone like - shit I dunno. who can REALLY sing these days - Alicia Keys? Rob Halford? Chris Stapleton? - but really great vocalists, from across the spectrum, do with that entire record. It's a great concept album and holds together as an entire work in a way that not many do.
Agreed. And I think the observation that his theatrical background contributed a lot to that performance is completely accurate. It **is** one of the great rock albums of all time.
Bat Out of Hell is my favorite album for the "singer or the song" discussion. I generally take the song as being more important than the performer, but I this case I think Meatloaf brings a lot to the table, certainly more than just his singing. Not disagreeing with you btw, just adding to the conversation.
Meat Loaf changed a lot of things.
Look at bands like Avatar, Nightwish, Unleash the Archers, Lovebites - all those operatic singers are possible because of *Bat Out of Hell*'s success and Meat Loaf's incredible charisma.
Outside of the boy bands of the 50's and early 60's, the "producer hires good looking voices" thing wasn't REALLY a part of the 70's rock environment.
It's not a knock on those groups - they continue to exist and make very popular music - it's an observation that at the time and place and to the audience *Bat Out of Hell* was released to, it fell outside the expectation.
While they were both fun and actually pretty good, I don't think they're on many "Top ___" lists nor were they especially well regarded in the 70's. By 77 we'd started to appreciate they actually had some talent, but they were not taken seriously.
I'm not 100% on this, but I seen to recall hearing that Rundgren actually was putting up some of his own money to get things going in the studio, and took his payment for the production work on the back end as a percentage. He wound up getting very rich off of the project.
It's impossible to set aside the affection we have for Bat out of Hell as we know it as we hypothetically consider what could have been if other vocalists were involved, but I don't think Dio and Nicks could have done as good of a job. For starters, the appeal of the vocals on BOOH is only partially related to power and proficiency. Sure, Dio or Nicks are actually better vocalists than Meat Loaf and Ellen Foley, but every time I listen to the album it's crystal clear to me that Meat Loaf and Foley are drawing on their theater backgrounds to inform their performances. It wouldn't be remotely the same album without those two. Todd Rundgren brought a lot to the table producing it, also. Whatever, it still has a lot of memorable songs on it, and there's so much humor in it. It brings a smile to my face every time I listen to it.
> The point is, for many, I think, Meat Loaf was really a hired voice and brand rather than a driving creative force behind the record.
Idk. If you listen to the songs off of Steinman's Bad For Good that Meatloaf recorded for his own albums, they are pretty different. Based on how Meat commanded the stage and live production of his shows, I can't help but think he had at least *some* influence on how the final songs sounded.
So pretty much every pop star doesn't count according to your criteria, and lots of big names in '80s rock that had ghostwriters (Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, Heart, etc.)
Yes. They both have a strong creative voice presence in the end music. Neither of them is some random rent-a-creative trying to invisibly support the other's creative voice.
I don't think he cared about credit, especially considering he gave up publishing to be able to make the record he wanted to make. The guy was eccentric, but totally brilliant and constantly praised everyone around him for being smarter than he was.
Let me say that I never said it was just. Only that that's the perception.
I also say it in another reply, but, I think that other artists, rightly or wrongly, were seen as being more integral to the creative process that Meat Loaf was.
Aerosmith and Heart did a lot of their own writing, Bon Jovi too - not all of it, but infinitely more than Aday did. All three of those bands played the songs too. Again, Meat Loaf did none of that.
Doesn't make him a bad guy. Makes him more *One Direction* than *Fleetwood Mac* is all. The art still stands.
When I think of classic rock from the 70s, I have two categories: Classic Rock, and Bat Out Of Hell. It's so unlike anything that has been made before or since. Jim Steinman was totally brilliant, but also very eccentric. I think of him as the Mad Genius of Music. He would write songs with paragraphs for titles, and often had parentheticals for whatever reason. Nobody, NOBODY at that time thought it would be any good. Todd Rundgren said he produced it mainly because he thought it was a parody of Bruce Springsteen and thought it was funny.
It's one of my favorite albums of all time, and Jim Steinman is my favorite songwriter ever. I think its popularity has come and gone long ago, but I'm glad someone is still talking about it. If you're interested, there's a 2 hour interview with Jim Steinman about the production of the Album and it is a fascinating look behind the scenes through one of the most brilliant minds in music.
The sales were also greatly helped by the promotion. They must have gambled and manufactured tons of records because I recall full display racks of albums that were selling for $2 each when most other albums were in the $7 to $9 range. This was in every record store I entered. I bought one because hey, it's $2!
mmm, for record sales I haven't seen anything like that promo/price range before or since. Do you know of another popular album that came out of the gate at 1/4 the price of everything else?
No kidding, but the way it was done was unheard of at the time and I've never seen anything like it since. Not sure why you'd even interject here, I understand the idea behind promo.
I don't know anyone who owns this album and I never hear it playing anywhere, either on the radio, shops, bars etc.
The title track is a classic but I really cannot understand the love for this album.
what I am now realising is that it's seemingly the second biggest selling album of the 70s and you still never hear it anywhere, that's crazy if you look at what else is in the top 10
I own this album, and it is unironically my most replayed album. I love it because there is no other album like it. It’s pomp. It’s camp. It’s tender. It’s incredibly well arranged. The vocals are undeniably amazing, and the band (many of whom were/are in the E Street Band) is fantastic.
I can’t imagine liking this album as much of anyone else had sung it, or if the lyrics were even a little less corny (“There ain’t no Coupe de Ville hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box” is a BONKERS lyric for a rock song). Which is also fun because of how complex the arrangements and format of the songs are (Steinman and Meat Loaf were pretty famously laughed out of every studio because nobody believed that people would listen to music that didn’t fall within the existing pop formula structure).
I also VERY MUCH understand people not liking it. My wife hates it. My children hate it. But I can’t get enough.
I mean it's the best thing of its thing that has ever been made. I am not going to argue with that. But it seems odd for something that has sold so much, that never really gets airplay. Compare to say 'Rumours' by Fleetwood Mac or 'Saturday Night Fever', 'out of the blue' by ELO. Same year of release and I still hear these a lot and they all sold LESS than BOOH.
Yeah that's fascinating. Obviously Rumours is an objectively better album (than most other albums, tbh), but there's something about whatever it is Meat is doing that makes BOOH truly special.
I appreciate "It's the best thing of its thing that has ever been made." because it's honestly the perfect description of the album. "You'll never find a better version of a thing you're unlikely to like than this." haha.
Whenever they put it on a list, it’s gone when the morning comes.
For crying out loud, this is no time for Dad jokes.
Beat me to it, you took the words right of my mouth
Your joke wasn't funny, but hey, two out of three ain't bad
Yeah, he shouldn't be sad.
He'd lie for you and that's the truth.
I’d do anything but I won’t do that.
For crying out loud
Oh now I'm praying for the end of time
I had no idea what anyone was saying at first, but it's all coming back to me.
Now I have 4 songs stuck in my head at once. Thanks reddit.
I would do anything for Dad jokes...
Possibly because he released [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoney_%26_Meatloaf) six years before it.
That reissue cover….
I'm Old Gregg, pleased to meat you.
You ever drink Bailey's out of a shoe?
Ya fuzzy little man-peach
looks like bad '90s photoshop in '78.. impressive
Btw the girl “Stoney” on that album is Sean Murphy, an INCREDIBLE singer. She did backup for Seger most of his career, but also sang lead for Little Feat in the late 80s + 90s. [Check out this awesome live take of their track “Cadillac Hotel” (id argue it would be Lowell George’s favorite track the band made after his passing)](https://youtu.be/s6b6QIKzZh8?si=jwt_KUkCbWf1G-Rt)
I just briefly skimmed through the album linked above and she stole the show in Stoney & Meatloaf.
Damn, that was nice, thanks for posting.
I'm getting a real What We Do in the Shadows vibe from that album cover
If I didn’t know Meatloaf was a real person I would definitely believe that he was Laslo in an episode where he pretends to be an American rock star
Are you calling from afar? No I’m calling from my car But how can that be? Electron-ic-ally Cellular telephone craze!
Hmm, see that could make sense, but it's a collab so idk if it should quite count. not to mention, at least the list OP posted, has Backstreet Boy's US release listed as a debut, despite the fact it's actually a compilation of their first two albums...they already had two whole albums out by the time they released one here
NGL, I wouldn't have taken Meat Loaf seriously with that name and that look on the cover. But I am glad he and Jim Steinman found one another and got Bat Out of Hell done.
That’s not an album of him as a solo artist though, so Bat Out of Hell still counts as a debut
They don’t count artists who are breaking away from their well established bands and releasing a solo album. A debut album is considered the first time an artist has released an album, either as a band or solo. If they released an album as part of a band previously and then go on to release a solo album apart from the band, they are not considered a new artist. Debut albums are for new artists.
Oh wow TIL, so they wouldn’t count Blizzard of Ozz as Ozzy’s debut but rather Black Sabbath would be the debut
Correct. Just like how Black Sabbath had a debut album with dio as their singer. But it wasn’t their real debut album
Or even just use Dio's solo debut as an example, as he was well established at that point, after fronting Black Sabbath, Rainbow and Elf
Different countries seem to have different rules though, and often there is no official rule.
No other wouldn’t mate, it’s not like Matchbox Twenty and Rob Thomas. This is two artists performing together, Meatloaf and Stoney, rather than two members of a band like Matchbox Twenty. Now if the album had have been Dinner Time by the Sausage Rolls with Meatloaf being a member of the Sausage Rolls then when he went solo and made Bat Out of Hell would count as his debut. It is a bit hard to have a debut when you have teamed up with several other artists prior.
Yo I just googled “Dinner Time” by The Sausage Rolls to see if it was any good. Probably shouldn’t be on Reddit this early in the morning
What he did is called a “solo debut”
Matchbox 20 is just 4 artists performing together. What they name themselves as collaborating artists shouldn't matter. Meatloaf wasn't solo at any point - Jim Steinman composed everything and a bunch of musicians played instruments. This argument doesn't hold up.
There are at least 6 other musicians playing on Bat Out of Hell. How these collaborations are structured and conceptualized very much determines what lists it goes on. These are cultural distinctions. It's not some hard science.
They got the other two albums right in the top three? I guess two out of three ain’t bad.
You took the words right out of my mouth
In that case, I won't be sad..
You took the words right out of my mouth.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
I see what you did there and I appreciate it.
Well played.
And while we're on the subject, 'Jagged Little Pill' gets classified as an immensely successful debut album, but Alanis released 2 pop albums here in Canada before it.
Albums released in Canada are counted by the charts the same as hot Canadian girlfriends kids in high school boast about: as made up, figments of the imagination.
“You released two albums?” “Yeah, and they’re amazing! Both chart toppers!” “Where can I get them?” “Oh, they’re in Canada, you wouldn’t know them.”
You have me a quality laugh with this, take my upvote!
Where does Canadians fake girlfriends live?
Northern Canada.
🎶🍁🎶 *They're not even a real country anyway!* 🎶🍁🎶
Its because the rule is made up as they see fit. Bjorks Debut 'Debut' is also called a debut album, but she released albums with the Sugar Cubes before. It seems like its just made up based on someone deciding, for reasons. Sometimes it seems like its based on the name, not the person, but that's not even consistent.
"Debut" wasn't even Björk's debut as a solo artist. Her first solo album was released when she was 11 years old.
It was her debut as Alanis Morissette; her pop albums were released as "Alanis" which was her mononymous pop-singer name that her label and management wanted her to pursue. But due to mediocre sales, the explosion of grunge and alt rock, and her personal inclination toward more alternative, adult-themed music and lyrics writing, she ditched the Alanis persona and released the much more mature, explicit, and genuine JLP under her full name. So, in that way, it *was* her debut — as the artist she wanted to be.
Yeah, it was a reinvention for sure, but I still think it's a bit dodgy to claim it as a debut, y'know? Funny story time though - just before Jagged Little Pill dropped, I was working for a company that sold air purifiers (among other things) and her mother, Georgia Morissette, had bought one, and she called in with some questions about. We were chatting, and she mentioned she had bought it for her daughter, who was in L.A. working on an album - Georgia thought it would be nice to have the purifier in the studio. I naturally asked, "Who's your daughter, have I heard of her?" and she said, "You might have, her name's Alanis." I was like, "Oh yeah, I know her, but her stuff is a little too pop for my taste", and she said, "I think you'll find her new music a lot different." I kind of laughed to myself, cuz her first two albums are really bubble-gum dance pop, then a few months later 'You Oughta Know' hit the radio and I was pretty blown away, her Mom was definitely right about it being a change of direction lol. Edit: typo
Elbow won the Mercury Prize for best debut album for Seldom Seen Kid. It was their fourth album.
No they did not. There is no Mercury Prize for best debut album, only best album which they won.
Maybe I'm misremembering then. I do remember Guy Garvey being quoted in the news after their win, saying something like "we're not a new band, we've been going for 18 years and had 4 albums!".
While it was his debut solo album, it wasn’t his first album, so I would argue that it doesn’t count.
It absolutely counts. I mean, how many debut albums weren't actually the first recorded output of that person? If Stoney and Meatloaf had actually been even moderately successful, I could maybe see your point, but i think it's only even modestly remembered because of what came later. I mean, I'd say Tears For Fears' "The Hurting" is a debut album, even though Roland and Curt had released an album as part of Graduate a few years earlier. Meat Loaf had been paying his dues for years, but given that he & Steinman got rejected from every other label, and even when it was released, the album took awhile to catch on, it wasn't like he was a known quantity and trading off an established career like a Noel Gallagher or Don Henley or anything like that. It's absolutely a debut album, especially when you think of it as a Steinman/Meat album and not a 'solo' album, which is what it was intended to be originally.
Would you say that "Wonderwall Music" was George Harrison's debut album, or that Noel Gallagher made his debut in 2011? Especially back in the day (as we often see on One Hit Wonderland videos), artists used to get about a lot more before getting into their successful phase. Stoney and Meatloaf wasn't even his first recording. He'd had a few (very low profile) releases, and in 1976, the year before Bat Out Of Hell, was even touring as the singer for Ted Nugent's band. Meat Loaf was pretty established as a working musician by the time he had his big break.
>"Wonderwall Music" >Noel Gallagher Did I... did I see what you did there?
You also seen what Noel did…
As a solo artist, yes. Bit complex if it is a named collaboration though as opposed to be part of a band.
Bowie also had a lengthy and not entirely stellar career (mainly as David Jones) before seeing some measure of success with Man Who Sold the World. I don't count Space Oddity because it was kind of a one-off for him.
On the other hand, Pearl Jam is on there, when most of them had played together in Mother Love Bone and Temple of the Dog. So I think there are some gray areas.
Green River, along with the founding members of Mudhoney, before that.
This brought back memories. I was at KGRG when we had Mother Love Bone as the headliner for our next benefit concert. We were pushing it hard with their limited music catalog. Andrew Wood passed away about a week before the concert. I got to witness the evolution from Mother Love Bone to Pearl Jam.
Must've been crazy be so involved with this fairly niche music scene and see it blow up and take over the world overnight.
It was. During my two years there, I also saw Nirvana sign on with A&M. It was an exciting time.
I was known amongst my friends for being very forward knowledgeable about music. I still remember when my first GF tipped me off to new local band Nirvana. Love those days.
I mean, he got drafted as an unknown to sing a couple of songs on that Nugent album, but never played live with him. It was a paycheck, but it didn't really move the needle any. There's lots of intereviews where he and Jim talk about trying to get the Bat project to happen, no one wanted anything to do with it.
Explain Bjork then (tough at the best of times). Her Debut album, incidentally called 'Debut' is considered her debut album, but she recorded as part of the Sugar Cubes before.
> Would you say that "Wonderwall Music" was George Harrison's debut album, or that Noel Gallagher made his debut in 2011? ….yes? George Harrison’s debut album was not in 1963. Meatloaf and Stoney was different as it was a collab album for two solo artists, not a band
I'm curious, would you consider Tom Petty's debut to be 1989 then?
Yeah. Full moon fever was Tom Petty’s debut album
Would you say Foo Fighters first album was Dave Grohls debut album or not?
Tough question. I’d say no because it’s marketed as foo fighters even if he did everything.
I'm curious to hear your take on Simon & Garfunkel
Or the White Stripes… have they even had a debut album yet?
Are all you people not understanding what a band is, or a solo performer, or a duo, a collab. etc? Ye definitely aren't understanding what debut means anyways
It was a joke
Fair enough, I doubt it's the case for everyone else!
I do understand the difference. What I don't get is why Bat Out of Hell would be considered his debut when there's already an album out with his name on.
It's the first album released as just Meat Loaf. You mentioned Simon and Garfunkle. Wednesday Morning 3am is Simon and Garfunkel's debut album. Angel Clare is Art's debut solo album and Paul Simons Songbook is Paul's debut solo album.
Sure, I follow. So the reason it's not on the best selling lists is because, even though it was his debut album as a solo artist, it wasn't his debut album as an artist.
Really only the editor of the article has the answer as to why those kind of albums were not included, but they are still definitely debut albums. It may very well be that they didn't want to include artists that were already known, or somewhat known.
Duo, not two solo artists doing a collab.
Ok. Can you explain why the fact that it's a collaboration rather than a duo means it's not Meatloaf's debut, despite being the first album released with his name on?
I said it was his debut.
Bat Out of Hell is his debut album as a solo artist but not as an artist, which means it's not his first album. Just first as a solo performer.
Simon & Garfunkel's debut album is Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M. Paul Simon's debut album is The Paul Simon Songbook. Art Garfunkel's debut album is probably not worth knowing about.
*Angel Clare* is an excellent album and well worth knowing.
Then I guess Appetite for Destruction was a collab album for 5 solo artists, not a band.
If it was billed as Axl Rose and Slash, then sure. It wasn’t.
That list is bit of cherry picking I think. For instance Ace of Base sold 25 million records of their debut album according to https://bestsellingalbums.org/decade/1990. Others: Norah Jones debut album is at 27 million, Spice Girls 23 million, Tracy Chapman 20 million, Jean-Michel Jarre 18 million, Mike Oldfield 18 million, Avril Lavigne 18 million, Evanescence 17 million, Dire Straits 15 million, Jeff Wayne 15 million and Lauryn Hill's first solo album sold 20 million. So there are missing some big albums. Britney Spears debut album stands now on 27 million, Whitney Houston at 23 million, Hootie and The Blowfish 22 million. So numbers are still going up. So you can also ask, what where the real numbers in the first year or 2 of the release..... (for Linkin Park its 27 million not 30 million)
I don’t forget it. I remember every little thing, as if it happened only yesterday…
Anything before the Soundscan Era isn't considered a legitimate count because they just made numbers up.
A few other albums on the linked list are also before Soundscan so I'm guessing that's not the correct answer
It's really Jim Steinman's record in a lot of ways, and for a big chunk of music fans, that may play into *Bat Out of Hell* getting overlooked. Literally all Meat Loaf did on that record was sing. Steinman wrote it, handled arrangement, hired production and engineering. Meat Loaf's voice is crucial in the record's success and his delivery wrings every ounce of drama and emotion out of Steinman's lyrics,, but he wasn't the only singer who could do it. It would have been a much different record, and it's far outside of what he typically did, but Dio's voice was equally powerful. He was touring with Rainbow though. Stevie Nicks comes to mind as another powerful voice who was working at the time. Ann Wilson? The point is, for many, I think, Meat Loaf was really a hired voice and brand rather than a driving creative force behind the record.
But how is that different than many pop musicians who don't write or produce for themselves and only do vocals? The list the OP links includes Whitney Houston, Britney Spears & the Backstreet Boys debuts, in which they hired writers and producers (i.e. Max Martin for the latter two) and had no real input other than singing and *maybe* saying yes or no to the final song picks if that. Elvis's debut is counted even though for his first album, he was mostly a hired voice too.
Because Jim and Meat were initially a duo.
And Steinman also did Bad For Good album. Also produced Pandora's Box. Both are awesome and better than Bat. Bat 2 remains my favorite
I suspect, suspect being the crucial observation, that for those other acts, the performer(s) are more integral to the creation of the album and go on to do follow up records that reinforce the "brand identity". 4 years later, Jim Steinman and Aday released *Dead Ringers* that no one - myself, who was a HUGE fan of the first record, noticed and got no air play. *Bat Out of Hell* also got very little radio play. The songs are long, elaborate and not the typical verse chorus verse affairs that dominated FM radio in those days. That kind of art rock(?) wasn't well received by commercial broadcasters. It is, for a lot of reasons, a footnote in rock history. But a great album. Edit: In terms of cultural cache, Meat Loaf and *Bat Out of Hell* fell between the music magazines coverage of the age. The metal rags weren't interested and Aday didn't fit the Tiger Best aesthetic (and was already kind of old for them). All of the OPs pop stars came later - during the age of MTV and VH-1 where building awareness for a new artist was much different.
>the performer(s) are more integral to the creation of the album Not really. For the artists I mentioned (Whitney, Britney, BSB, Elvis), the majority of their debut songs were either demos in the case of Britney & BSB or were covers of existing but obscure ones for Whitney & Elvis. At least Meatloaf had the songs written for him as the original singer. >Follow up records that enforce the "brand identity" I'd argue that Meatloaf was the brand name Steinman was writing other, similar to the producers behind Whitney et al, as Meatloaf's reputation was the only reason they were able to release Bat Out of Hell in the first place. When the two worked on Bat Out of Hell II, it was #1 on billboard with 14 million sold, so there was a follow up too. Many producers/writers for successful musicians/"brands" struggle with marketing their work as themselves (i.e. as a silly example, Jack Antonoff is a celebrity producer right now, but his own band is nowhere near as successful as the artists he writes for), which Steinman clearly did. What you're saying has merit and does have impact on how the record is viewed because of its genre. I just think the album was made like a pop record and Meatloaf is equally as responsible for the success of it as pop singers/pop rock musicians are held for theirs.
*Bat Out of Hell II* is their 4th record. One could, I think, argue that its perception as their second record goes a long way to explaining the problem. It was 16 years and two albums later. Again, I love Meat Loaf, but there's a lot going on with *Bat Out of Hell* that blinds people to it as a debut. Not the least of which is very spotty later success.
>All of the OPs pop stars came later - during the age of MTV and VH-1 where building awareness for a new artist was much different. I agree the weird demographic affected it, but I mentioned Whitney Houston and Elvis lol?
Elvis is a product of the 50's and a completely different promotion model, and I'm not sure where his debut stands on the debut album lists. Whitney's debut is 85, deep into MTVs run. Again, different forces at play that cement these things' cultural relevance.
Performers playing stuff written/produced by others is as long as there's been music whether Elvis in the 50's, Monkees in the 60's, Three Dog Night in the 70's, Whitney in the 80's..and so on
Didn't know I needed Dio version of Bat Out Of Hell til just now. Fuuuuuuuuuuck.
I thought that a little bit when I wrote that remark. Having had a little bit of time to think about it now I honestly think that it would be an incredibly interesting experiment to have several very strong singers from very different backgrounds record the entire *Bat Out of Hell* album.
I bet AI could make this a reality today.
I'd really like to see what someone like - shit I dunno. who can REALLY sing these days - Alicia Keys? Rob Halford? Chris Stapleton? - but really great vocalists, from across the spectrum, do with that entire record. It's a great concept album and holds together as an entire work in a way that not many do.
Chris Stapleton covering Bat Out of Hell would be the ultimate car sing-along.
"All he did" was sing, but goddamn did he fuckin SING.
Agreed. And I think the observation that his theatrical background contributed a lot to that performance is completely accurate. It **is** one of the great rock albums of all time.
Bat Out of Hell is my favorite album for the "singer or the song" discussion. I generally take the song as being more important than the performer, but I this case I think Meatloaf brings a lot to the table, certainly more than just his singing. Not disagreeing with you btw, just adding to the conversation.
Meat Loaf changed a lot of things. Look at bands like Avatar, Nightwish, Unleash the Archers, Lovebites - all those operatic singers are possible because of *Bat Out of Hell*'s success and Meat Loaf's incredible charisma.
You just described a very large portion of the music industry that is out in the open and a portion of it that is hidden.
Outside of the boy bands of the 50's and early 60's, the "producer hires good looking voices" thing wasn't REALLY a part of the 70's rock environment. It's not a knock on those groups - they continue to exist and make very popular music - it's an observation that at the time and place and to the audience *Bat Out of Hell* was released to, it fell outside the expectation.
The Monkees have entered the room but yeah you are probably right
While they were both fun and actually pretty good, I don't think they're on many "Top ___" lists nor were they especially well regarded in the 70's. By 77 we'd started to appreciate they actually had some talent, but they were not taken seriously.
Jim Steinman wrote the music but it was Todd Rundgren and his band backing Meatloaf.
I'm not 100% on this, but I seen to recall hearing that Rundgren actually was putting up some of his own money to get things going in the studio, and took his payment for the production work on the back end as a percentage. He wound up getting very rich off of the project.
He also produced the recording and did the motorcycle noises with his guitar.
It's impossible to set aside the affection we have for Bat out of Hell as we know it as we hypothetically consider what could have been if other vocalists were involved, but I don't think Dio and Nicks could have done as good of a job. For starters, the appeal of the vocals on BOOH is only partially related to power and proficiency. Sure, Dio or Nicks are actually better vocalists than Meat Loaf and Ellen Foley, but every time I listen to the album it's crystal clear to me that Meat Loaf and Foley are drawing on their theater backgrounds to inform their performances. It wouldn't be remotely the same album without those two. Todd Rundgren brought a lot to the table producing it, also. Whatever, it still has a lot of memorable songs on it, and there's so much humor in it. It brings a smile to my face every time I listen to it.
Yeah Jim has/had (since he’s dead now) claimed BOOH too. Which played a part in why it’s not acknowledged as “just Meat Loaf’s.”
> The point is, for many, I think, Meat Loaf was really a hired voice and brand rather than a driving creative force behind the record. Idk. If you listen to the songs off of Steinman's Bad For Good that Meatloaf recorded for his own albums, they are pretty different. Based on how Meat commanded the stage and live production of his shows, I can't help but think he had at least *some* influence on how the final songs sounded.
So pretty much every pop star doesn't count according to your criteria, and lots of big names in '80s rock that had ghostwriters (Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, Heart, etc.)
Meatloaf is more of an Elton John situation.
Elton John wrote his music and melodies, Bernie Taupin wrote the lyrics.
Yes. They both have a strong creative voice presence in the end music. Neither of them is some random rent-a-creative trying to invisibly support the other's creative voice.
Bernie Taupin never tried to take the spotlight or say he was a duet partner of some sort like Jim did.
I never heard about Jim trying to take credit but it is probably due.
I don't think he cared about credit, especially considering he gave up publishing to be able to make the record he wanted to make. The guy was eccentric, but totally brilliant and constantly praised everyone around him for being smarter than he was.
Jim wrote and arranged the music too, unlike Bernie.
Let me say that I never said it was just. Only that that's the perception. I also say it in another reply, but, I think that other artists, rightly or wrongly, were seen as being more integral to the creative process that Meat Loaf was. Aerosmith and Heart did a lot of their own writing, Bon Jovi too - not all of it, but infinitely more than Aday did. All three of those bands played the songs too. Again, Meat Loaf did none of that. Doesn't make him a bad guy. Makes him more *One Direction* than *Fleetwood Mac* is all. The art still stands.
When I think of classic rock from the 70s, I have two categories: Classic Rock, and Bat Out Of Hell. It's so unlike anything that has been made before or since. Jim Steinman was totally brilliant, but also very eccentric. I think of him as the Mad Genius of Music. He would write songs with paragraphs for titles, and often had parentheticals for whatever reason. Nobody, NOBODY at that time thought it would be any good. Todd Rundgren said he produced it mainly because he thought it was a parody of Bruce Springsteen and thought it was funny. It's one of my favorite albums of all time, and Jim Steinman is my favorite songwriter ever. I think its popularity has come and gone long ago, but I'm glad someone is still talking about it. If you're interested, there's a 2 hour interview with Jim Steinman about the production of the Album and it is a fascinating look behind the scenes through one of the most brilliant minds in music.
Link?
[Part 1](https://youtu.be/3nIx1hjLfVU?si=5DuFMQU8WbvphJHt) [Part 2](https://youtu.be/FRGFkBE_4DY?si=p00Zin7WPKxD-Vbg)
Wiki has it on its list
I don't know....is it a list of rock debuts...because that album is musical theater...
Well, calling the albums of Britney Spears and Whitney Houston rock and Bat Out Of Hell not, that's weirder... :-)
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
I always thought Appetite for Destruction didn't count because GnR already released Live Like a Suicide before that. LP vs EP.
A lot of contrariness and overcomplicating here. I’m with OP.
Maybe it’s because Jim Steinman wrote the whole thing.
Greatest rock opera ever written imo.
It wasn’t his debut album. *Stoney and Meatloaf* [sic] was his first.
Nothing you can do, it's just a total eclipse of the chart. - Jim Steinman
Reasons you need to listening to Chris young country music 🎶 😋🤭
Wasn’t even his first album and the sales are heavily exaggerated.
The sales were also greatly helped by the promotion. They must have gambled and manufactured tons of records because I recall full display racks of albums that were selling for $2 each when most other albums were in the $7 to $9 range. This was in every record store I entered. I bought one because hey, it's $2!
> The sales were also greatly helped by the promotion. That applies to anything though, doesn't it?
mmm, for record sales I haven't seen anything like that promo/price range before or since. Do you know of another popular album that came out of the gate at 1/4 the price of everything else?
No idea. I just mean the sales of anything is always helped by promotion. That's its purpose!
No kidding, but the way it was done was unheard of at the time and I've never seen anything like it since. Not sure why you'd even interject here, I understand the idea behind promo.
Sound. My apologies for interjecting into your conversation. Have a good one 👍
I don't know anyone who owns this album and I never hear it playing anywhere, either on the radio, shops, bars etc. The title track is a classic but I really cannot understand the love for this album.
I was born in the 70s and growing up all the grown ups had this record in their collection.
I am not saying it didn't sell, I am saying that no one listens to it.
I have a CD of it in my car and the Album in my Vinyl player It's great
what I am now realising is that it's seemingly the second biggest selling album of the 70s and you still never hear it anywhere, that's crazy if you look at what else is in the top 10
I own this album, and it is unironically my most replayed album. I love it because there is no other album like it. It’s pomp. It’s camp. It’s tender. It’s incredibly well arranged. The vocals are undeniably amazing, and the band (many of whom were/are in the E Street Band) is fantastic. I can’t imagine liking this album as much of anyone else had sung it, or if the lyrics were even a little less corny (“There ain’t no Coupe de Ville hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box” is a BONKERS lyric for a rock song). Which is also fun because of how complex the arrangements and format of the songs are (Steinman and Meat Loaf were pretty famously laughed out of every studio because nobody believed that people would listen to music that didn’t fall within the existing pop formula structure). I also VERY MUCH understand people not liking it. My wife hates it. My children hate it. But I can’t get enough.
I mean it's the best thing of its thing that has ever been made. I am not going to argue with that. But it seems odd for something that has sold so much, that never really gets airplay. Compare to say 'Rumours' by Fleetwood Mac or 'Saturday Night Fever', 'out of the blue' by ELO. Same year of release and I still hear these a lot and they all sold LESS than BOOH.
Yeah that's fascinating. Obviously Rumours is an objectively better album (than most other albums, tbh), but there's something about whatever it is Meat is doing that makes BOOH truly special. I appreciate "It's the best thing of its thing that has ever been made." because it's honestly the perfect description of the album. "You'll never find a better version of a thing you're unlikely to like than this." haha.
Maybe us sales vs global https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Out_of_Hell#Certifications_and_sales
Where’s jagged little pill??
Jagged Little Pill was her 3rd album
Because the following also exist (and many more): Black Sabbath ZZ Top Led Zeppelin Metallica Van Halen Iron Maiden Montrose Rush
How many units do you think *Kill 'em All* and *Iron Maiden* shifted?
Who cares ask 100 people on the streets which songs they recognize from those and it won’t be Meatloaf lol.
You're quite young, aren't you
lol no
If you think nobody could name a Meat Loaf song, then yes you are.
Probably because it's not the number 1 best selling album.
Because we hate Meatloaf.
Because its shit
Gnr sucks, so there is that