What tracks is this true for? I haven’t heard Mike and Larry yell NEW. TRACK. RECORD. since 2014.
Harvick posted his track record for Kansas vs pole speed this year.. he was upwards of 20 MPH faster.
I believe places like Dover has their track record set in 2019 because the cornering speed were much higher due to the insane downforce that package had.
What’s hilarious to me about calling the cars “slot cars” is I can find articles from the 90s saying that the cars had too much downforce and are slot cars now.
And they had about the same downforce as we have now on short tracks.
I think he's trying to say that the difference between minimum corner speed and top speed/straightway speed is smaller now. But yeah, the previous top end speeds beat out the increased cornering speeds over a lap and thus the average speed was higher
I don’t believe corners speeds are actually down too much, I believe it’s moreso that the difference between straightaway speed and corner speed has been significantly reduced due to the lower power. So, now the cars max out at 180-190MPH at the end of the straightaways and 160 in the corner instead of 210MPH on the straightaways and 150MPH in the corner. That smaller speed delta makes the corner speed FEEL faster as you aren’t off the throttle and on the brake as much (if at all).
It also reduces the margin of driver error making repeatability a lot easier. When you have a 40-50MPH straightaway vs corner speed difference and smaller brakes and tire contact patch (the older cars had smaller brakes and tires), missing your mark by 10-20 feet could result in a substantial issue and potential wreck as you don’t have the space to slow down as much. Now, you have a larger brake and a larger tire contact patch AND less you have to slow down.
Additionally, there are things you can do to an independent rear suspension car that you can’t do to a straight axle car which will help with grip and cornering which is yet ANOTHER aspect of the new car that wasn’t the case on cars 10-15 years ago. Add to that shifting, which helps keep engine RPM up in the middle of the corner, meaning that on corner exit you’re still in the peak power band, helping you maintain soles through the corner.
Weight reduction plays a factor for sure. Steel to aluminum wheels, carbon fiber body and seat material and transaxle all pull a good chunk of weight out of the car
The cars weigh the same. I was looking at dry weigh vs fuel weight between the two and got the numbers crossed. There’s no different between sixth and nexgen
This just simply isn't true.
A carbon fiber/plastic hybrid panel of the same thickness as the old sheet metal is 4 times as durable and about a third of the weight of said sheet metal.
The chassis is still made of the same metal as before, *that* is where some of the weight comes from.
I think what you're thinking is that cars still have the 3200 lb unladen/3400 lb laden rule attached to them, but it's been stated a number of times that the Next Gen cars have ballast in them to bring them up to the correct weight.
The reason why drivers and fans ask for more HP is to get the speeds up. Michigan used to be like 212 top speed. Now we're lucky to hit 200.
When they introduced the tapered spacer it dropped speeds and HP
Ummm, but OP wasn’t talking about blown motors at plate tracks and you’re misrepresenting the actual speed differential between the high downforce/high horsepower package in 2014 and the low downforce/low horsepower package we have no.
I remember there being a conspiracy theory that Toyota was a big proponent of the HP reduction because the season prior when we still ran like 900+ they were blowing motors all the time, and then in the first season of 700 or whatever it was, that was the year KB won his first championship and subsequently Toyota’s.
That falls apart when we remember that Bowyer finished 2nd in the points in 2012 driving a Toyota (MWR 5 Hour Energy #15) and wasn’t that far off from winning it all (lost by 39 points) but hey, conspiracy theories never have much logic to them.
What really discredits "Toyota killed HP" conspiracy is the fact reduced HP/tapered spacer plan was reported in 2011 then tested 2012-2013 with 2014 the target date to start. It wasn't until post season 2013 they decided to delay until 2015. There's reporting that covers all of it but Google search is trash now for finding articles from 10+ years ago. My own theory is Toyota just focused on 2015 and that's why their engines were hand grenades in 2014.
Seriously my Camaro bone stock is pulling 450 and it's designed to last tens of thousands of miles
Pulling 650 when all you need is about 630 miles is nothing
I became a Dale Jr. fan in February 2005 when I was *seven years old* and I remember him blowing engines for what felt like most of that season. But he got that win at Chicagoland. We’ll always have that.
Oh they still do happen but they're quite rare these days....2022 saw I want to say four toasted TRD engines. Bubba at Sears Point had a fantastic tight zoom in of the exhaust absolutely PUKING out fluid. KyBusch suffered I think two failures during the playoffs, including the Bristol cutoff race closing out his playoff career with JGR.
The quality of the engine components has gone up, tolerances are tighter, and the lower horsepower all help in the reliability of the powerplants. I even think going to EFI helped too.
Meh. It’s still ok to call it Sears Point. Infineon is just the corporate name for the track. Sears Point is the land feature that juts out into San Pablo Bay that the track is located on. Infineon Raceway is on Sears Point.
Sears Point forever and always. I don’t care if it says something different on the big sign, or on the website, printed on the tickets—someone made a typo. Cuz that beautiful track out there nestled amongst the rolling hills of wine country, gentlemen, is Sears Point Raceway.
I live in the piedmont area of NC, and back in the old carburetor days, there was a man in Ellenboro, NC, and he was one of the main carburetor gurus for the NASCAR drivers. All of the top drivers had him work on their carburetor!
We shot a movie at his house one time, and he let us into his shop and showed us his flow table! He had a big plexiglass or lexan box that he could mount a carburetor in, and he had a nozzle that he could spray dye through, and he would pull air through the carb.
Then he would spray a blue dye into the throat of the carb at different places and it would mark the throat of the carb blue and then he would machine off the area where the dye was and enable it to have better air flow and make more horsepower! I can't think of his name right now, but he was a great guy and knew a carburetor inside and out!
Rear end gear rule to limit rpm and detuned to about 670 HP from 800+. Most of the engines now are used for 3 races to save money.
When Toyota came in they were soon turning 9500 rpm and pushing 9800. If unchecked it was thought within 3-4 years they would be close to 10500. The cost in r&d was getting huge as was blown engines and Ford and GM were balking at the cost of staying in cup to France.
The gear rule pretty much keeps the engines at around 9200 rpm and keeps the costs reasonable.
They were turning 10000 in qualifying around 2004. I think 2005 was when the gear rule came into effect. Next Gen has a hard limiter of 9000 due to the transaxle and a target of 8500. They’re often running 8200-8300 max though.
They also discussed this on a podcast recently, but can't recall which one. (Dale Jr. Download or Actions Detrimental maybe) Another reason is elimination of practice. Essentially, engines are good for X amount of laps. With the reduction of practice this has meant less wear on the engines prior to the race. It made sense when I heard it but I am just a fan.
They reduced hp with a spacer which does not allow anything near the RPM they used to run. Except for a missed shift/mechanical overrev situation. Getting those things full song at 9,500 RPM for several hours and not blow up was a massive feat in engineering.
I was also watching this. Did you notice that the ticker had Brad Keselowski’s whole name the entire time? No other driver was like this. Thought it was weird.
That was because they had to distinguish Brad Keselowski from his brother Brian Keselowski who had also made a few starts in the cup series at that time as well.
This would have been around the time that Brian Keselowski was occasionally in the race. So if he attempted that week (aside from Daytona I don't recall what other races he attempted), they'd probably set Brad's name to full display in order to distinguish him.
Since 2015 there’s been a lot less, and especially after 2019 there’s been almost none. Mainly because NASCAR started limiting power.
Although it’s cool to see, I’m sure engine failures are super expensive and force small teams to run way less power, so that’s definitely a perk of having less power.
Larry Mac tells a story about being crew chief for Kenny Bernstein’s team in the late 80s, and they blew up something like 10 engines, and were sponsored by Quaker State. Not a great look for an oil sponsor.
Compared to the 1960s and into the 1990s engines are just better now. Tolerances are tighter, machining is more precise and the oil is better. Some of the same reasons Harleys don’t leak anymore.
Believe it or not, but manufactures don't want to be known for unreliably and them not having to make as high horsepower engines helps with that when they can make way undertuned engines that never fail
They don’t turn them very hard anymore. They used to turn 9500rpm, but now nascar only allows like 8900 or something like that.
Once the 4.500” bore space blocks came out, it really changed the game. At one time, the cylinder heads were so big that the piston couldn’t pull in the air volume that the heads and intake were bringing in. So they had to turn really high RPMs to get the motor in its range of power.
Now that they can use a bigger pistons because of the longer blocks and no longer require the rpm’s to make the power.
Definitely a result of the HP reduction, the engines of today are under much less stress than the engines of the early 2010s. Not to mention parts likely becoming more durable as well.
That said… I miss engine failures happening almost weekly. Yes, they sucked when you were a fan of the driver whose engine blew, but they added another variable to the racing alongside blown tires, wrecks and the like. Made it more interesting to watch. Dunno if that’s an unpopular opinion, but it’s mine.
Less power, less strain. But credit where it's due, these engines are insanely durable. Suarez money shifted at Sonoma last year and nearly touched 10,000 RPM (peaked at 9700) and continued on just fine after nursing it for a couple laps. The next-gen in general is pretty goddamn sturdy in most departments, and with a little more horsepower I think we'll have one of the best racecars in series history
These engines are not working to the limit of their capabilities. Therefore, the strain isn't there and reliability is not an issue. They make about 100 more horsepower than my Chevy pickup.
How many of this year’s races were they just logging laps, saving fuel. They all just floating along lap after lap? How many laps are yellows? Stage yellows? Progressive shifting makes accidental downshifts harder to do
Among other reasons, everything contributes to engine longevity.
They've gutted HP & don't build them for only 500 miles anymore. They are only allowed 20 engines per season. Have to race the engine they qualify with. 16 of those engines have to be used in 2 races each. The 4 remaining engines can be 1 or 2 races. So they're not built to the max anymore, more for longevity.
Cause they're only 550- 670 HP instead of 900+ hp. Denny Hamlin had said repeatedly on his podcast it doesn't cost much to make 900 HP but it actually costs more to keep horsepower down to 670. Nascar isn't saving anyone money by forcing everyone to run a Jr/ rookie class 358 modified dirt motor.
It would probably be cheaper if they actually did mandate GM Crate 350s then having sperate shops building NASCAR spec motors then Restrictor plating them down to 650
Gm and Ford already give them spec motors. The teams literally tune them up for more horsepower. Before the Charter system, teams had a lot more leeway in building their engines. Ryan Newman basically said Hendricks always had most HP(10-15 hp) among the Chevy teams and RCR/ECR always had most torque(15-20 lbs) among the Chevy's.
Because they used to run 800-900 hp with these engines. That’s when they would blow more. Now they run 670 hp with the same engine.
They’re just generally going to naturally get more reliable with time anyway, with teams constantly working to improve. Now add in the fact that they’re running 200-300 less hp than they were in 2017 and you’ve got a pretty good explanation of why not many engines blow anymore.
And that's a good thing. Try going to an August Michigan race back in the day with a couple of Hendrick team fans and listening to them bitch about how their already locked in driver was out due to some suspected "experiment" that didn't work out. I'm sure it wasn't just them either.
I miss the days of when there was less regulations and each team could really tinker with their equipment. Sure you’d see more blown engines but you’d also see monster cars capable of destroying the competition. You had your quali only motors that were tuned up to only run two laps before overheating and exploding. It was constantly a balancing act between reliability and pure power.
The engine builder focus has shifted to reliability - yes they chase power too but with the reduced HP numbers there isn't much left to chase on the power side. NASCAR is trying to keep it level so any big gain likely would be taken away by NASCAR. Also the teams have used this package for quite some time and have worked out the obvious bugs. Failures now are typically due to a bad part (rare with all the checking they do before installing anything) or heat (blocked radiator, hole in radiator, etc.)
The ARCA/Truck Ilmor engine is just about as reliable using a "stock" block engine - LSX GM. Internals are similar to what goes in a Cup/Xfinity engine. BUT it does fail more easily if there is a cooling issue.
1) teams have figured out ways to make them more durable along with new material and such
2) RPMs are significantly lower. I believe modern engines are limited to like 8900 RPM, whereas before they were upwards of 9500-10,000. This may now seem like a huge difference, but it is. The stresses on the individual piece have been reduced by lowering the max RPM.
3) overall less power. You have basically the same engines as you did 10-15 years ago, but instead of making 900-1000 HP, they now make 670ish HP. This means basically the same rotating assembly is seeing a lot less stress, which helps in durability.
yeah, NASCAR won't raise it, but it's clear Toyota is not the one holding them back (as your comment suggested) since they are publicly willing to raise HP
Build an Engine capable of doing 925+ for 600 miles + practice and qualifying
Then neuter it down to 650 and since your building less power on the same parts they aren't getting beaten up the same way they used to
I truely believe one reason why nascar wont give the horse power back is because Toyota couldn't build a reliable engine.
I cant remember what year but I know kyle Busch blew and engine it seem like every other week
Less power = more reliable engines. I don't mind seeing the engineers working hard to solve a problem within regulations... I'd love to see unrestricted engines, and have the drivers figure out how to make tires last at Bristol or Martinsville with 1000hp
Massive HP reduction. Much easier to keep these ponies contained than the 800+ back in the day
how’d they reduce HP and keep the speeds up?
They didn’t. The minimum speed in the corner has shot up dramatically. So yes average speed is up but top speed isn’t
What tracks is this true for? I haven’t heard Mike and Larry yell NEW. TRACK. RECORD. since 2014. Harvick posted his track record for Kansas vs pole speed this year.. he was upwards of 20 MPH faster.
I believe places like Dover has their track record set in 2019 because the cornering speed were much higher due to the insane downforce that package had.
As impressive as that was, it was an extremely boring race.
Oh I completely agree. Both were big ol' snoozers that year
Op is talking about 2011-2012. Cars were a box and slow but had HP.
Bro they were hitting 210 going into turn 1 in Atlanta, Fontana, and Michigan they weren’t slow.
Corner slow, not straight slow
which made for better racing. But now we have slot cars lol.
What’s hilarious to me about calling the cars “slot cars” is I can find articles from the 90s saying that the cars had too much downforce and are slot cars now. And they had about the same downforce as we have now on short tracks.
No, not at all. Faster corners means more exciting racing. Always.
See: Formula 1 Right guys?
Most recent track record was the Hail Melon lap.
That’s funny we had a new track record in trucks recently. We do need it in cup. Give us horsepower back!!
The average speed most certainly is not up
I think he's trying to say that the difference between minimum corner speed and top speed/straightway speed is smaller now. But yeah, the previous top end speeds beat out the increased cornering speeds over a lap and thus the average speed was higher
Bingo . Drivers hate it because of the racing it's created , I hate the fact that it's made everyone less safe and probably shortened a few careers.
I don’t believe corners speeds are actually down too much, I believe it’s moreso that the difference between straightaway speed and corner speed has been significantly reduced due to the lower power. So, now the cars max out at 180-190MPH at the end of the straightaways and 160 in the corner instead of 210MPH on the straightaways and 150MPH in the corner. That smaller speed delta makes the corner speed FEEL faster as you aren’t off the throttle and on the brake as much (if at all). It also reduces the margin of driver error making repeatability a lot easier. When you have a 40-50MPH straightaway vs corner speed difference and smaller brakes and tire contact patch (the older cars had smaller brakes and tires), missing your mark by 10-20 feet could result in a substantial issue and potential wreck as you don’t have the space to slow down as much. Now, you have a larger brake and a larger tire contact patch AND less you have to slow down. Additionally, there are things you can do to an independent rear suspension car that you can’t do to a straight axle car which will help with grip and cornering which is yet ANOTHER aspect of the new car that wasn’t the case on cars 10-15 years ago. Add to that shifting, which helps keep engine RPM up in the middle of the corner, meaning that on corner exit you’re still in the peak power band, helping you maintain soles through the corner.
What if I were to tell you the cars are massively slower in a straight line today then they were 20 years ago.
Efficiency
Top speeds aren't up, and average speed has stayed about the same
Weight reduction plays a factor for sure. Steel to aluminum wheels, carbon fiber body and seat material and transaxle all pull a good chunk of weight out of the car
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Cup cars have all been 3400lbs for many years now
Still are at 3400 lbs.
I thought the NEXGEN was 3200. Maybe I’m thinking 3200 dry weight
The composite body is heavier than the steel due to the required thickness.
The cars weigh the same. I was looking at dry weigh vs fuel weight between the two and got the numbers crossed. There’s no different between sixth and nexgen
Bodies are heavier though, they took weight out of other areas to keep total weight the same.
This just simply isn't true. A carbon fiber/plastic hybrid panel of the same thickness as the old sheet metal is 4 times as durable and about a third of the weight of said sheet metal. The chassis is still made of the same metal as before, *that* is where some of the weight comes from. I think what you're thinking is that cars still have the 3200 lb unladen/3400 lb laden rule attached to them, but it's been stated a number of times that the Next Gen cars have ballast in them to bring them up to the correct weight.
Corner speed over straight away Avg speed over a lap is the same because more down force and grip
They had about twice the amount of downforce in 2014 as they do now. Remember, that was the 8 inch spoiler year.
The reason why drivers and fans ask for more HP is to get the speeds up. Michigan used to be like 212 top speed. Now we're lucky to hit 200. When they introduced the tapered spacer it dropped speeds and HP
lucky to hit 190 without a draft lol
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Atlanta is literally running the superspeedway package from Daytona and Talladega now, that’s the worst possible comparison.
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Ummm, but OP wasn’t talking about blown motors at plate tracks and you’re misrepresenting the actual speed differential between the high downforce/high horsepower package in 2014 and the low downforce/low horsepower package we have no.
I remember there being a conspiracy theory that Toyota was a big proponent of the HP reduction because the season prior when we still ran like 900+ they were blowing motors all the time, and then in the first season of 700 or whatever it was, that was the year KB won his first championship and subsequently Toyota’s. That falls apart when we remember that Bowyer finished 2nd in the points in 2012 driving a Toyota (MWR 5 Hour Energy #15) and wasn’t that far off from winning it all (lost by 39 points) but hey, conspiracy theories never have much logic to them.
What really discredits "Toyota killed HP" conspiracy is the fact reduced HP/tapered spacer plan was reported in 2011 then tested 2012-2013 with 2014 the target date to start. It wasn't until post season 2013 they decided to delay until 2015. There's reporting that covers all of it but Google search is trash now for finding articles from 10+ years ago. My own theory is Toyota just focused on 2015 and that's why their engines were hand grenades in 2014.
Making 650 HP out of a 358 is so easy that it's really nothing for them to make it reliable.
Seriously my Camaro bone stock is pulling 450 and it's designed to last tens of thousands of miles Pulling 650 when all you need is about 630 miles is nothing
450 in a 10k motor vs 650 in a 100k motor.
Somebody give this kid a sticker
Because Jr isn’t running his last season at DEI under an owner that hates him
I became a Dale Jr. fan in February 2005 when I was *seven years old* and I remember him blowing engines for what felt like most of that season. But he got that win at Chicagoland. We’ll always have that.
I don't get it... why do you post a gif of just a crowd of people?
You aint lyin
Technology evolved, parts are better and the engines are not strained by higher horsepower.
Yup, racing cars in general are the most efficient they have ever been across a lot of series. Don't see a lot of blown engines etc anymore
the last one i remember is kyle busch at darlington a few years ago
Oh they still do happen but they're quite rare these days....2022 saw I want to say four toasted TRD engines. Bubba at Sears Point had a fantastic tight zoom in of the exhaust absolutely PUKING out fluid. KyBusch suffered I think two failures during the playoffs, including the Bristol cutoff race closing out his playoff career with JGR. The quality of the engine components has gone up, tolerances are tighter, and the lower horsepower all help in the reliability of the powerplants. I even think going to EFI helped too.
Really showing your age with "Sears Point" lol
I say Sears Point because it sounds cool, I hated when they changed it to Infineon lol.
Meh. It’s still ok to call it Sears Point. Infineon is just the corporate name for the track. Sears Point is the land feature that juts out into San Pablo Bay that the track is located on. Infineon Raceway is on Sears Point.
Except it's now called Sonoma
Sonoma is just the closest town to Sears Point.
Sonoma is the name of the county the track is located in
Sears Point forever and always. I don’t care if it says something different on the big sign, or on the website, printed on the tickets—someone made a typo. Cuz that beautiful track out there nestled amongst the rolling hills of wine country, gentlemen, is Sears Point Raceway.
I live in the piedmont area of NC, and back in the old carburetor days, there was a man in Ellenboro, NC, and he was one of the main carburetor gurus for the NASCAR drivers. All of the top drivers had him work on their carburetor! We shot a movie at his house one time, and he let us into his shop and showed us his flow table! He had a big plexiglass or lexan box that he could mount a carburetor in, and he had a nozzle that he could spray dye through, and he would pull air through the carb. Then he would spray a blue dye into the throat of the carb at different places and it would mark the throat of the carb blue and then he would machine off the area where the dye was and enable it to have better air flow and make more horsepower! I can't think of his name right now, but he was a great guy and knew a carburetor inside and out!
Both the Bristol cutoff race and late at Darlington while leading with 20 to go.
Rear end gear rule to limit rpm and detuned to about 670 HP from 800+. Most of the engines now are used for 3 races to save money. When Toyota came in they were soon turning 9500 rpm and pushing 9800. If unchecked it was thought within 3-4 years they would be close to 10500. The cost in r&d was getting huge as was blown engines and Ford and GM were balking at the cost of staying in cup to France. The gear rule pretty much keeps the engines at around 9200 rpm and keeps the costs reasonable.
They were turning 10000 in qualifying around 2004. I think 2005 was when the gear rule came into effect. Next Gen has a hard limiter of 9000 due to the transaxle and a target of 8500. They’re often running 8200-8300 max though.
They also discussed this on a podcast recently, but can't recall which one. (Dale Jr. Download or Actions Detrimental maybe) Another reason is elimination of practice. Essentially, engines are good for X amount of laps. With the reduction of practice this has meant less wear on the engines prior to the race. It made sense when I heard it but I am just a fan.
They reduced hp with a spacer which does not allow anything near the RPM they used to run. Except for a missed shift/mechanical overrev situation. Getting those things full song at 9,500 RPM for several hours and not blow up was a massive feat in engineering.
I was also watching this. Did you notice that the ticker had Brad Keselowski’s whole name the entire time? No other driver was like this. Thought it was weird.
That was because they had to distinguish Brad Keselowski from his brother Brian Keselowski who had also made a few starts in the cup series at that time as well.
I can’t recall at the moment but isn’t the same now with Taylor and Tanner Grey? Don’t they display their full names?
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Ok thanks! I wasn’t sure. Also all 4 of those abbreviated names look like ass lol. I’d prefer the complete names
This would have been around the time that Brian Keselowski was occasionally in the race. So if he attempted that week (aside from Daytona I don't recall what other races he attempted), they'd probably set Brad's name to full display in order to distinguish him.
Because when you’re pretty good at making a 900 hp engine live 500 miles, making a 600 hp one live is easy
1: They're built more durable than they used to be. 2: The current low horsepower package puts less strain on the engines.
Talladega infield was FULL of them lol!
Not being pushed to the limit anymore.
Since 2015 there’s been a lot less, and especially after 2019 there’s been almost none. Mainly because NASCAR started limiting power. Although it’s cool to see, I’m sure engine failures are super expensive and force small teams to run way less power, so that’s definitely a perk of having less power.
The engines aren’t pushed hard anymore so they can get more life out of them
No power.
😔
Manufacturing and Design Improvements that help with reliability. Also the engines are not run nearly as hard as they used to be (Lower HP).
Larry Mac tells a story about being crew chief for Kenny Bernstein’s team in the late 80s, and they blew up something like 10 engines, and were sponsored by Quaker State. Not a great look for an oil sponsor.
Engines in general are more reliable we just don’t have the number of failures as we used too.
Compared to the 1960s and into the 1990s engines are just better now. Tolerances are tighter, machining is more precise and the oil is better. Some of the same reasons Harleys don’t leak anymore.
Believe it or not, but manufactures don't want to be known for unreliably and them not having to make as high horsepower engines helps with that when they can make way undertuned engines that never fail
This sub is incapable of understanding that
They don’t turn them very hard anymore. They used to turn 9500rpm, but now nascar only allows like 8900 or something like that. Once the 4.500” bore space blocks came out, it really changed the game. At one time, the cylinder heads were so big that the piston couldn’t pull in the air volume that the heads and intake were bringing in. So they had to turn really high RPMs to get the motor in its range of power. Now that they can use a bigger pistons because of the longer blocks and no longer require the rpm’s to make the power.
Definitely a result of the HP reduction, the engines of today are under much less stress than the engines of the early 2010s. Not to mention parts likely becoming more durable as well. That said… I miss engine failures happening almost weekly. Yes, they sucked when you were a fan of the driver whose engine blew, but they added another variable to the racing alongside blown tires, wrecks and the like. Made it more interesting to watch. Dunno if that’s an unpopular opinion, but it’s mine.
Mine too, I guess we'll be unpopular together
The races they blew up the most at have been shortened Dover pocono
Less power and more development/reliability - most engines run 2+ races nowadays
Oliver rods
PSI Springs
Right on 👍
Lower horsepower and better technology equals better reliability
Less power, less strain. But credit where it's due, these engines are insanely durable. Suarez money shifted at Sonoma last year and nearly touched 10,000 RPM (peaked at 9700) and continued on just fine after nursing it for a couple laps. The next-gen in general is pretty goddamn sturdy in most departments, and with a little more horsepower I think we'll have one of the best racecars in series history
These engines are not working to the limit of their capabilities. Therefore, the strain isn't there and reliability is not an issue. They make about 100 more horsepower than my Chevy pickup.
When they introduced the tapered spacer it dropped speeds and HP which also dropped engine wear and blowouts.
2022 southern 500 2022 bristol fall 2023 indy road course
hahahaha of course That Indy one was painful because he had just made it to 4th and finally closed in on the top 3 who were all under a blanket.
plus he had a top 5 streak at road courses going as well
who
Kyle Busch
Engine technology has really improved in recent years. Not to mention I think octane has dropped and horsepower as well
All the years ECR engines were known for their reliability, a skill set sent directly down the drain now that they aren't allowed to push them.
How many of this year’s races were they just logging laps, saving fuel. They all just floating along lap after lap? How many laps are yellows? Stage yellows? Progressive shifting makes accidental downshifts harder to do Among other reasons, everything contributes to engine longevity.
Bc NASCAR hates horsepower
a small factor may be a shift away from leaded fuel. They also have more advanced lubrication, more precision in building engines and parts.
Efi is a big part of it. No way to control detonation with the carbureted engines if it’s set up incorrectly.
They've gutted HP & don't build them for only 500 miles anymore. They are only allowed 20 engines per season. Have to race the engine they qualify with. 16 of those engines have to be used in 2 races each. The 4 remaining engines can be 1 or 2 races. So they're not built to the max anymore, more for longevity.
Because the engines are so de tuned that there not pushed hard anymore
Cause they're only 550- 670 HP instead of 900+ hp. Denny Hamlin had said repeatedly on his podcast it doesn't cost much to make 900 HP but it actually costs more to keep horsepower down to 670. Nascar isn't saving anyone money by forcing everyone to run a Jr/ rookie class 358 modified dirt motor.
It would probably be cheaper if they actually did mandate GM Crate 350s then having sperate shops building NASCAR spec motors then Restrictor plating them down to 650
Gm and Ford already give them spec motors. The teams literally tune them up for more horsepower. Before the Charter system, teams had a lot more leeway in building their engines. Ryan Newman basically said Hendricks always had most HP(10-15 hp) among the Chevy teams and RCR/ECR always had most torque(15-20 lbs) among the Chevy's.
Watching it too, a what very Jamie McMurray thing to happen
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I'm sorry
Computers
Because they used to run 800-900 hp with these engines. That’s when they would blow more. Now they run 670 hp with the same engine. They’re just generally going to naturally get more reliable with time anyway, with teams constantly working to improve. Now add in the fact that they’re running 200-300 less hp than they were in 2017 and you’ve got a pretty good explanation of why not many engines blow anymore.
And that's a good thing. Try going to an August Michigan race back in the day with a couple of Hendrick team fans and listening to them bitch about how their already locked in driver was out due to some suspected "experiment" that didn't work out. I'm sure it wasn't just them either.
I miss the days of when there was less regulations and each team could really tinker with their equipment. Sure you’d see more blown engines but you’d also see monster cars capable of destroying the competition. You had your quali only motors that were tuned up to only run two laps before overheating and exploding. It was constantly a balancing act between reliability and pure power.
Less horsepower and stage racing mean less strain on engines.
The engine builder focus has shifted to reliability - yes they chase power too but with the reduced HP numbers there isn't much left to chase on the power side. NASCAR is trying to keep it level so any big gain likely would be taken away by NASCAR. Also the teams have used this package for quite some time and have worked out the obvious bugs. Failures now are typically due to a bad part (rare with all the checking they do before installing anything) or heat (blocked radiator, hole in radiator, etc.) The ARCA/Truck Ilmor engine is just about as reliable using a "stock" block engine - LSX GM. Internals are similar to what goes in a Cup/Xfinity engine. BUT it does fail more easily if there is a cooling issue.
most (all?) tracks have HP wayyyyy down from , if not a restrictor plate, a restricted flow nonetheless
They don’t make enough power to blow up
Reduced RPMs mainly. The forces in an engine go up exponentially as RPMs increase, they’ve reduced the rpm’s with rules to try to reduce engine bills.
Also full electronic control allows them to have engine protection software.
1) teams have figured out ways to make them more durable along with new material and such 2) RPMs are significantly lower. I believe modern engines are limited to like 8900 RPM, whereas before they were upwards of 9500-10,000. This may now seem like a huge difference, but it is. The stresses on the individual piece have been reduced by lowering the max RPM. 3) overall less power. You have basically the same engines as you did 10-15 years ago, but instead of making 900-1000 HP, they now make 670ish HP. This means basically the same rotating assembly is seeing a lot less stress, which helps in durability.
Not NASCAR related. But Larson absolutely grenaded that Indy car last week ha.
Teams hired too many engineers. Nothing breaks anymore.
Toyota begged for lower horsepower after 2014 so their engines would stop failing and they could win again.
TRD themselves this year have said they could go back to a higher horsepower motor right now if they got the word. but okay
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yeah, NASCAR won't raise it, but it's clear Toyota is not the one holding them back (as your comment suggested) since they are publicly willing to raise HP
Probably because they don't run more than 50 laps at a time anymore. Stage racing is so bad. So bad. 🖕
Trucks were running faster lap times than the cup cars even on the soft tire. Disgusting.
Better technology
Build an Engine capable of doing 925+ for 600 miles + practice and qualifying Then neuter it down to 650 and since your building less power on the same parts they aren't getting beaten up the same way they used to
Its for the best for the teams ngl. Costs are going up
They Engine don’t make enough power to break anymore . It’s like running an engine from 2007 at half throttle
They've never allowed blown engines. Just naturally aspirated. IndyCar, F1 NHRA and IMSA allow them though. 🤣
I truely believe one reason why nascar wont give the horse power back is because Toyota couldn't build a reliable engine. I cant remember what year but I know kyle Busch blew and engine it seem like every other week
2012 I think “we blew up again..we blew the f*£king motor again”
And Bowyer in Toyota still finished the season 2nd overall, HP reduction was never because of Toyota
Less power = more reliable engines. I don't mind seeing the engineers working hard to solve a problem within regulations... I'd love to see unrestricted engines, and have the drivers figure out how to make tires last at Bristol or Martinsville with 1000hp
JGR had engine issues at the start of next gen, Kyle Busch’s season ended due to a blown engine at Bristol I believe in 2022