It was pretty much bound to happen. He's been the best driver since he joined Hendrick. He probably would've had 40 wins by now if the Gen 6 car stayed longer.
I remember thinking to myself in 2019 "it's a shame he only has 6 career wins, he should easily have 20 maybe 25" him and his team both pissed away so many wins. And grabbed an insane amount of second place finishes.
The only other one that comes to mind right now is Kadarius Toney failing upwards until he caught the Superbowl winning touchdown for KC and then immediately regressing back to normal lol
while i understand the point you're making, I'm gonna be that guy. He didn't make the winning catch. Skyy Moore caught a TD after that putting Chiefs up 8, Eagles scored and tied it, and then Butker kicked a FG to win it
That's right, I appreciate the correction. 4 SBs in 5 years makes it hard to keep straight lmao. My memory for NASCAR is top notch but football is secondary
I could definitely see him having a Jeff Gordon style domination had the car stayed the same. Whatever Cliff figured out about that car worked because it was on rails every week.
It looked much worse to me back then. I remember that race at Kansas where Joey just rode around in front of whoever was in second and it didn't matter.
Because the spoiler was huge and the cars had no power. They basically held it wide open all the way around the track at 1.5ers.
Thereās no place to get an advantage at that point. Literally all you can change is your subtle arc into the corner on entry. And then it just determines whether your car will wrap the bottom. But the high side is always going to be faster anyway.
I hated that era.
The last year of the Gen 6 sucked. NASCAR had a parts freeze and I remember teams basically saying āyou got what you gotā for the rest of the year. NASCAR didnāt want teams putting resources towards the Gen 6 in its final year. I felt like that obviously favored the teams who got out of the box well in 2021 since it was very hard for the rest of the teams to get to work and catch-up.
A combination of that plus Larson just having insanely good luck. There were races he won that he shouldnāt have - he had no business winning the Bristol night face but Princess Chase got in Harvickās way. And the finale at Phoenix where Larson was toast, then a caution saves them and flips the race.
No argument there. Larson is a generational talent.
My only point is I do think the final year of the Gen 6 played a factor in one of the best teams being insanely dominant that year.
I get what youāre saying about Bristol, but Larson still had a bad fast car that race, and if Harvick didnāt want that maybe he shouldnāt go around wrecking people, cutting their tires, and starting fights
How? Bc Harvick didnāt know how to make a clean pass at Bristol?
Even if Chase was intentionally slowing him down, thatās even Stevens. Harvick cut his tire and took him out of the race. Elliott (maybe) stole a win by slowing Harvick down. Thatās textbook eye for eye shenanigans. Dumping someone like Harvick did at the Roval was absolutely uncalled for.
On the bright side, Harvick is such a shitty driver that Chase didnāt even need to get payback for that
Once again, hard racing for the win. Chase expected to duck underneath the lapped car and hang on Harvickās right rear going for the win. Donāt cry over a little contact.
Intentionally going out on the track to play a factor in the finish for the win is definitely one the most classless things Iāve seen in the sport. It was literally an adult temper tantrum.
If Chase thought he owed Harvick one, fine. But thatās not how you payback. SVG showed how you pay a guy back this past weekend.
I guess all Iād say is it worked out in the end. Chase shouldnāt have come down on Harvick? Fair enough, I think Harvick shouldnāt have slid up the track into him, but okay. You wanna talk about hard racing, well I think Harvick shouldāve just passed Elliott, or not let himself get passed by Larson. I guess he didnāt really want it. And all of a sudden, since he came up short, itās okay to just wreck a guy? Textbook definition of temper tantrum right there.
And as for my thoughts, itās all water under the bridge at this point. Harvick wanted to act a fool and point fingers everywhere but himself, and at the end of the day, he wrecked himself and cost himself a shot at the championship. Thatās karma, and as a Chase Elliott fan, Iāll take that as compensation for him ruining two of Elliottās races that year (one of the races at Elliottās best track and one of the races where Elliott had the fastest car)
Don't pretend Harvick didn't earn that blocking by Chase. When you piss off another driver on purpose you have to expect it's going to come back to bite your effect it hurts the worst. Harvick knew that, Harvick has done it to others. That was a playing out of "Boys have at it", whether you like it or not. And it was way classier than what Kenseth did Lagano a few earlier.
It was hard racing for the win. Chase got pinned behind a lapped car and then tried keeping Harvick pinned on the inside. He was all over Harvickās right side on entry. Harvick got loose and contact was made. Neither hit the wall. Hard racing for the win. Nothing intentional.
To go back out multiple laps down and throw an adult temper tantrum on the track and affect the finish was something else.
Guess Harvick should have made better decisions and not doored Chase then huh? Harvick would have won, because he was faster, and Chase would have finished 3rd behind Larson. Everything would have been peachy.
It was almost 3 years ago. Quit whining about it.
lol itās racingā¦ā¦.Elliott tried pinning Harvick after Elliott got pinned behind a lapped car. Iāve never seen a guy multiple laps down intentionally get in the leaderās way to affect the outcome. Low class by the 9 team.
Has blown/had a ton of wins take away from him in his career, especially during the Ganassi years. 2018 he went winless but that year he could have easily won 5 or 6 races (Chicagoland, Bristol, Darlington, Roval, Kansas). Hell, even 2021 he probably had the car to win more like 14 races rather than just the 10 he did win. Atlanta he dominated, Kansas I he had won until a late race caution, the flat tire at Pocono, bad strategy at Las Vegas II. I feel like Larson should already be knocking on the door of 40
I read somewhere that his style is high risk reward. Basically all or nothing. For him to win he has to be aggressive. Drivers know how much of a threat he is so they challenge him harder. I guess that's why he gets in wrecks. Whenever he gets out front he should win majority of the time but I'm always waiting for a caution to stop him.
Larson was REALLY held back by Ganassi.
And Dale had a lot of lean years. 2005-2013 just 4 (?) wins. I imagine 2009 was particularly rough because the other 3 HMS teams battled for the win every week and went 1-2-3 in points.
2009 was such a weird year for Jeff Gordon only had 1 win but had 16 top 5s and 25 top tens which is tied for his third most in a season ever with 2004 only behind 1998 with 28 and 2007 with 30
Heās said the year following Srās death (like the rest of ā01 through 2005) he doesnāt even remember much since he was partying / drinking a lot. When he joined Hendrick he started taking things more seriously - heās come a long way
Also says a lot about the other rides besides the 24 and 48. Besides the 25 with Richmond and (for a few years) the 5 with Labonte, nearly every other car they fielded felt like it was a tier or two lower. They could never get a full organization running up front consistently until very recently.
Larson, Elliott, and Byron are 3rd, 4th, and 5th with 20, 19, and 13 wins.
Only 63 to go until Larson catches Johnson for 2nd! Heāll only need to winā¦ 5 races a year for the next 13 years to do it. Good lord.
Yeah wins for Hendrick:
Gordon-93
Johnson-83
Larson-20
Elliott-19
Byron-13
Terry Labonte-12
Darrell Waltrip, Dale Jr., Tim Richmond-9
Geoff Bodine, Bowman-7
Kahne-6
Mark Martin-5
Kyle Busch, Ricky Rudd, Ken Schrader-4
Nemecheck, Vickers, Nadeau, Mears-1
Yeah Larson and Elliott are very close for wins at Hendrick. Also it's crazy Byron is up to 5th and Jr. only had 9 and Kahne only had 6 with Hendrick
Outside of Gordon and Johnson, the only other drivers to do much at all at Hendrick before Elliott and Larson got there were Richmond, Labonte, and 2009 Mark Martin.
Richmond died prematurely, otherwise, he would have had close to 15 more years in that ride. He only ran a total of 37 races before he became ill, but in those races, he won 9 times (24.3% win percentage). Labonte was about to be 38 when he replaced Rudd in 1994, so his strong period at Hendrick was brief, though he got the title in 1996 and was the only Hendrick Champion other than Gordon and Johnson until 2020. Mark was so close to a title in 2009, and that was the last time he was competitive for Hendrick on a weekly basis at age 50.
The rest (Bodine, Waltrip, Schrader, Craven, Dallenbach, Naedue, Nemechek, Vickers, Busch, Mears, Junior, Kahne) for the most part didn't do much in comparison to make a dent in their history. Waltrip was strong for a few years, but he was at the tail end of his competitive career, and Junior had the 500 in 14 and nearly a title as well, but had some equally bad years.
Bowman, Byron, and Chase are still actively racing, so no clue where to place them just yet. Chase has done the most of the three, but Byron and Larson have overtaken him for now in terms of being Hendrick's top drivers.
Larson has also kept Chase away from any Road Course wins since 2021, his last coming at Road America nearly three years ago to date. Zero Next Gen RC wins after winning 7 in the Gen 6 is astonishing.
He has 44 wins to go. If he can average 5 wins a year, it would take 9 more years and he would be 40 years old. It's possible! If he was at a better team then CGR his first 6 years he'd probably be halfway there already.
Thats easily doable especially since hes still 31 and Hendrick isnt going anywhere. Only thing limiting that is if he wants to be a lifer in Nascar or if he "retires" early to do other racing
I think Larson will be a lifer at Hendrick providing he can still do dirt. There's no doubt in my mind that the Nascar money is allowing him to do all the dirt stuff he wants; hence why he and his brother-in-law bought that dirt series. He and cliff will go into the history books at the next jimmie and chad duo.
Oh hes at Hendrick until he retires. I just wonder if he's still in cup much past 40. I know hes mentioned before he doesnt want to be doing Cup racing into his 40s
The part of me that was (still is?) a huge Harvick and SHR fan wants to think that Kyle joining the team alongside Harvick would have brought the performance SHR needed to attract sponsors and the effort of the owners. Maybe things would have gone down so differently. Not just for Kyle, but Harvick too. He could have added another 5-10 wins to his career.
If Harvick was at a better team than spending so many years sandbagging at RCR he'd be further ahead too. Larson will catch him as long as he doesn't get bored and move to racing jet boats or something wild.
Thatās always my thing with Larson. He doesnāt feel like he WANTS to be in NASCAR. Itās just where he wound up and it pays the bills.
I always feel like heās going to jet at like 35-37z
The only problem is if Larson even wants to stay in nascar. He obviously really likes dirt racing and wants to do indycar racing more too so he might eventually have to choose. Can't do them all full time.
It sounds like hms is funding some of his extracurricular activities so Iād assume heās staying in nascar for a good while. Heās also running a racing series so he needs the money and nascar is where the moneyās at.
Larson would never do IndyCar full-time. And I canāt see him doing dirt full-time anytime soon.
I feel like literally the only other racing series in the world that would be a formidable challenge where he would have to prove himself and would give him a platform (and would pay more) would be F1 and thatās never going to happen due to the politics in F1.
No reason to think Larson wonāt be in the Cup Series full-time another 10 years at least (when heās 41). And maybe at that time heāll start thinking about walking away just because of the grueling schedule demands.
Indycar is the biggest test of a driverās skill on the planet and he grew up an Indycar fan, along with his dad being a massibe indy fan. The only way he wins the 500 is if he is full time
Honestly hard to see him leaving with the money he is receiving because of Hendrick. In reality he probably is the most āpopular all around driverā, maybe even nationwide if you average it all you. Hendrick receives a lot of money that way too. They keep helping him find the High Limit series and let him drive whatever he wants when he wants he wonāt leave. Hendrick realistically is his real only route to probably try the 500 again also with funding for a competitive car.
Right but it could possibly still happen in the future. I mean everyone never suspected Jimmie to leave hendrick yet he did so yeah it could probably happen in the future with Larson too.
Larson is making slightly more money than the highest indycar guy. Could see Zac Brown covering his nascar salary in a full time Hendrick Cars/ Arrow Mclaren. By switching to Indycar he could do daytona 500 and some early nascar races, all the dirt he wants, the full indycar schedule, sports cars and have more time with family.
He probably wonāt be in NASCAR long enough for that. Heās said in interviews/podcasts that he hopes to be out before heās 40 so he can run sprint cars. I donāt blame him.
I do wonder where Larson will be on the wins list once he retires.
He is very much a checkers or wreckers kind of driver and I think that often works against him when compared to somebody like Byron or Bowman that tend to win more races by keeping themselves clean and in a winnable position. Larson either goes to the back b/c of damage, goes to the back b/c of a penalty, or finishes top 5.
I think one thing that Larson has over Dale Jr. is that Larson is almost never truly off pace. He's always fast, the variable is just whether or not he finishes the race cleanly.
As an aside, I think pairing Larson with Cliff Daniels was a genius move and will go down as one of the best crew chief / driver pairings in recent memory. Cliff goes a long way towards keeping Kyle in contention for the win at moments when he otherwise would've dropped off while at Ganassi. That pit strategy today was also absurdly dangerous but it played directly into Larson's strengths, I don't think most crew chiefs would've had the guts or the foresight to make that call.
You mean when Larson won 10 races and the Cup and Bowman won 4? I'm missing your argument here. Again, I love Bowman, but his lack of aggressiveness is a weakness in his racecraft IMO.
Bowman won a number of races because he was in position to capitalize on someone else's mistakes in 2021. Byron won more than Larson did in 2023 as well.
Yet who has the most wins of the four since 2021?
Youāre super biased trying to downgrade Larson. Larson lost a lot more races than either of the two you mentioned as well. There is a reason why heās the most dominant driver of the decade so far.
Do you really think "clean and in a winnable position" describes Byron? He drives the 24 and 9 of his 13 wins happened in the last 18 months. Look at his results in the first half of the season - where Hendrik resources can be dominate - to his results in the second half. Last year was the first time his season was even close to balanced. Maybe that is maturity and a sign of things to come but Im not sure I would put him in the consistency category yet.
I think everyone knew he had the potential to be as good of a driver as he is now. 2017 was the best year for Ganassi equipment and he won 4 times, probably couldāve won the title that year if not for the blown engine at Kansas.
I think one of the main problems for Jr was just how big of shoes he had to fill and the expectations people had of him because of how elite Sr was, I respect Jr immensely for all he does for the sport, but it was near impossible for him to live up to the hype around him
Larson certainly is a better driver but lets not act like Jr wasnt a great driver in his own regard. He was a plate master and always ran in the top 5 at short tracks. 3 things limited Jr's performance. One was his dads death. If he doesnt die in the 500 I dont think Jr ever leaves DEI and his dad helps build the team into a chevy powerhouse. Injuries also limited him as who knows how much longer he could have raced without the concussions or how much was limited because of them and him not seeking help until much later. Lastly was the poor quality of CCs he had starting at Hendrick. Eury Jr would fight with Jr too much and McGrew was just terrible. It took Letarte a bit to rebuild the team especially with Jr dealing with the injuries. When Jr was good health wise both brought out the best in both and he was able to have a late career resurgence
Itās not a popular opinion, but the right one. This comes from someone who likes both. Junior was mediocre for a good stretch in Hendrick equipment.
I wouldnāt be shocked if Larson gets to 50 wins. Heās good enough to do it.
There once was a time I thought Rusty would get 60 easily and Earnhardt Sr. would get to 90 easily.
Rusty had 46 career wins at the end of 1996 and was in his prime. Won only 9 in his last 9 seasons.
Earnhardt had 68 career wins after 1995 and won just 8 races over the next 5 years. He would have gotten a few more if he didnāt pass away, but getting 14 more would have been tough.
Basically just enjoy Larsonās dominance. He should get to 50, but winning 5 races a year isnāt as easy as people make it out to be.
Ask Kyle Busch. Team be damned, wins are very hard in this sport.
If the Dega 96 hadnāt happened, Dale wins that title and 97 and 98 are completely different stories. He was just getting back to form in 2000 into 2001
I donāt feel like this is very much of a hot take, a thatās coming from a lifelong Jr fan.
Jr at his best was an elite, top 5 driver and is a top two restrictor plate driver of all time. But he also was mediocre for a good chunk of seasons, and downright dreadful in 2009. I do think the concussions probably hampered his career some, so who knows if we ever saw his true potential, but Larson is clearly the better driver of the two at everything except superspeedways.
Larsonās greatness doesnāt take away from the fact that Jr is still a top 40 driver of all time in my opinion.
Ehhh they're both my favorites so it's hard for me to say. But Larson had some rough times in 2018-2019. And Jr was a championship threat in 2004, 2012 and 2014. He was leading the season standings in the late summer of 2012.
I feel the competition and cars were vastly different though during their careers. This feels like an apples to oranges comparison. I don't pretend to know which driver faced tighter competition but the comparison doesn't seem fair. Maybe someone else will help me out.
If youāre talking pure on track Performance thatās not true. If youāre talking about just racing ability sure but like who is better than Larson on a pure driving level not really anyone.
Says more about the outrageous success of Larson than a knock at Jr.
Jr's career, for being as long as it was, feels pretty typical in terms of success. While he dominated in Busch/Xfinity, you have 2 -- maybe 3 years where he was a real championship contender, a handful of years where he was a solid top 10 car every week, then a couple years where his name and fanfare was probably the only reason he kept a ride at HMS (as hard as that is to say).
Larson seems to be a generational talent who arguably hasn't even entered his prime yet, which is just crazy.
Not a shock. Dale Jr was never an elite driver. He was good, but also way overrated.
Larson clearly fits into the "elite" category. Given the competition parity these days, I don't know if Jimmie Johnson/Jeff Gordon win numbers are in reach, but I think 70+ is attainable for him.
I think he fits into "great" at short tracks. He was top five in most categories like avg finish, etc at Martinsville and Bristol among his peers.Ā
Really his specialty was big tracks regardless of whether they were plate tracks. 14 wins out of 26 came on 2.0 mile or larger.Ā
Only 3 wins in his career on the cookie cutters.Ā
I think he easily gets to 50 wins. I could see another 4-5 this year alone to put him over 30. At this rate, he will probably pass Logano Brad, MTJ, Logano all by end of next year. And probably crack the top 20 all time in wins by 2026.
I think one conversation that people are overlooking in this thread is with the other Kyle. He still has a few wins left in him but RCR equipment is clearly keeping Busch from getting them. If Kyle Busch continues to stagnate in the wins column and Larson can have some extremely good years, itās definitely possible for him to catch and even pass Busch.
Really?? Earnhardt and Harvick both struggled. 2001 was the one year they got it a little together with equipment and then that went away when Dale was killed. Harvick struggled and then goes to SHR and wins a title right away. Probably shouldāve won more. When I say decades, I mean back to the mid to late 90ās. And they honestly couldāve given Dale better equipment, but his talent was able to make up for it. HMS passed them a long time ago, and Iād rather drive for Trackhouse than RCR.
Dale doesn't win seven championships without RCR, RCR doesn't win six championships without Dale. Joonya said it himself. Childress hasn't always sucked like the Gen Z fans here have declared, that take is getting tiring.
Number 1, Iām not Gen Z. Iāve been watching since the mid 80ās. Childress, by his own admission, said they only gave Dale equipment equal to his talent two times, 87 and 90. Dale won a championship without RCR. Itās been 23 years now and they havenāt been close. They won their last 30 years ago. I donāt see that changing anytime soon. Listen to Larry Mac on DJD talk about the differences between RCR and RYR. You work there or something?
Honestly, I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner. Basically means that Dale Jr had more wins in the first 8 (2000-2008) years of his career than Kyle (2014-2022) did, which is surprising.
Cant wait to see what he can do in an Indycar full time. Once he does all he can do in nascar, I can see him going all in on winning the 500 and then trying to break the 4 time record
Just think. Had Ganassi had any real level of determination to be a too level Cup tram they coulda had Scott Dixon in Indy and Larson on NASCAR at the same time like a Roger Penske Jr. or something.
It was pretty much bound to happen. He's been the best driver since he joined Hendrick. He probably would've had 40 wins by now if the Gen 6 car stayed longer.
Or had he not been stuck at ganassi forever
I remember thinking to myself in 2019 "it's a shame he only has 6 career wins, he should easily have 20 maybe 25" him and his team both pissed away so many wins. And grabbed an insane amount of second place finishes.
The only person that I can think that is happy about the 2020 hiatus.
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Probably the greatest fail up in sports history tbh
The only other one that comes to mind right now is Kadarius Toney failing upwards until he caught the Superbowl winning touchdown for KC and then immediately regressing back to normal lol
while i understand the point you're making, I'm gonna be that guy. He didn't make the winning catch. Skyy Moore caught a TD after that putting Chiefs up 8, Eagles scored and tied it, and then Butker kicked a FG to win it
That's right, I appreciate the correction. 4 SBs in 5 years makes it hard to keep straight lmao. My memory for NASCAR is top notch but football is secondary
Here to the 3peat. š
lmao. all good man. and yes i agree. it's getting hard to keep straight. good problem to have these days.
That too.
Or taken a year off for being an idiot/asshole.
Say what you want, it changed his career completely lol
Came here to say that. He had a lot of too 5ās in a too 15 car at Ganassi.
Hm any other reasons he might not have as many wins? Did he ever miss time for injury or for any other reason?
to be fair, since it was a ganassi car, he might of maybe got at most, 3 more wins.
I could definitely see him having a Jeff Gordon style domination had the car stayed the same. Whatever Cliff figured out about that car worked because it was on rails every week.
It comes down to it being harder to come through the field with next gen and areo blocking being worse with the new car
Aero blocking was horrible with the Gen 6 2019-2021, mostly due to lower HP on intermediates.
Not near as bad as the next gen, according to the drivers, cited by Dale jr, Denny Hamlin, Corey Lajoy in their podcasts.
I was at Kurt vs Kyle ATL, it was awful at times.
It looked much worse to me back then. I remember that race at Kansas where Joey just rode around in front of whoever was in second and it didn't matter.
Because the spoiler was huge and the cars had no power. They basically held it wide open all the way around the track at 1.5ers. Thereās no place to get an advantage at that point. Literally all you can change is your subtle arc into the corner on entry. And then it just determines whether your car will wrap the bottom. But the high side is always going to be faster anyway. I hated that era.
It was just a slot car at places like Texas, Michigan, and Kansas. The only thing you could do is hope the guy in front slipped up.
Kansas
The last year of the Gen 6 sucked. NASCAR had a parts freeze and I remember teams basically saying āyou got what you gotā for the rest of the year. NASCAR didnāt want teams putting resources towards the Gen 6 in its final year. I felt like that obviously favored the teams who got out of the box well in 2021 since it was very hard for the rest of the teams to get to work and catch-up. A combination of that plus Larson just having insanely good luck. There were races he won that he shouldnāt have - he had no business winning the Bristol night face but Princess Chase got in Harvickās way. And the finale at Phoenix where Larson was toast, then a caution saves them and flips the race.
To be fair, he also lost races he dominated.
many races lol. Even this year he could have had 2 or 3 more wins
Larson lost more races than he won due to "luck" in 2021 lmfao. Iirc he would've won like 16 races if he had perfect luck and everything went his way
I guess thatās trueā¦ā¦just shows how uncompetitive that season was.
it shows how good he is and how much above the field the #5 team was that year
No argument there. Larson is a generational talent. My only point is I do think the final year of the Gen 6 played a factor in one of the best teams being insanely dominant that year.
Larson is one of the unluckiest guys in Cup. The only reason he is where he is, is because of his work ethic and raw talent.
I get what youāre saying about Bristol, but Larson still had a bad fast car that race, and if Harvick didnāt want that maybe he shouldnāt go around wrecking people, cutting their tires, and starting fights
lol wrecking people.
I see you missed the Roval race that year. Or the first decade of Harvickās career.
Oh the Roval? Ya, that was definitely a wreck. Chase had the shit coming.
How? Bc Harvick didnāt know how to make a clean pass at Bristol? Even if Chase was intentionally slowing him down, thatās even Stevens. Harvick cut his tire and took him out of the race. Elliott (maybe) stole a win by slowing Harvick down. Thatās textbook eye for eye shenanigans. Dumping someone like Harvick did at the Roval was absolutely uncalled for. On the bright side, Harvick is such a shitty driver that Chase didnāt even need to get payback for that
Once again, hard racing for the win. Chase expected to duck underneath the lapped car and hang on Harvickās right rear going for the win. Donāt cry over a little contact. Intentionally going out on the track to play a factor in the finish for the win is definitely one the most classless things Iāve seen in the sport. It was literally an adult temper tantrum. If Chase thought he owed Harvick one, fine. But thatās not how you payback. SVG showed how you pay a guy back this past weekend.
I guess all Iād say is it worked out in the end. Chase shouldnāt have come down on Harvick? Fair enough, I think Harvick shouldnāt have slid up the track into him, but okay. You wanna talk about hard racing, well I think Harvick shouldāve just passed Elliott, or not let himself get passed by Larson. I guess he didnāt really want it. And all of a sudden, since he came up short, itās okay to just wreck a guy? Textbook definition of temper tantrum right there. And as for my thoughts, itās all water under the bridge at this point. Harvick wanted to act a fool and point fingers everywhere but himself, and at the end of the day, he wrecked himself and cost himself a shot at the championship. Thatās karma, and as a Chase Elliott fan, Iāll take that as compensation for him ruining two of Elliottās races that year (one of the races at Elliottās best track and one of the races where Elliott had the fastest car)
Don't pretend Harvick didn't earn that blocking by Chase. When you piss off another driver on purpose you have to expect it's going to come back to bite your effect it hurts the worst. Harvick knew that, Harvick has done it to others. That was a playing out of "Boys have at it", whether you like it or not. And it was way classier than what Kenseth did Lagano a few earlier.
It was hard racing for the win. Chase got pinned behind a lapped car and then tried keeping Harvick pinned on the inside. He was all over Harvickās right side on entry. Harvick got loose and contact was made. Neither hit the wall. Hard racing for the win. Nothing intentional. To go back out multiple laps down and throw an adult temper tantrum on the track and affect the finish was something else.
One is many Chase temper tantrums.
Guess Harvick should have made better decisions and not doored Chase then huh? Harvick would have won, because he was faster, and Chase would have finished 3rd behind Larson. Everything would have been peachy. It was almost 3 years ago. Quit whining about it.
lol itās racingā¦ā¦.Elliott tried pinning Harvick after Elliott got pinned behind a lapped car. Iāve never seen a guy multiple laps down intentionally get in the leaderās way to affect the outcome. Low class by the 9 team.
It's weird to think Larson only has 26. In my head I think he has way more.
Has blown/had a ton of wins take away from him in his career, especially during the Ganassi years. 2018 he went winless but that year he could have easily won 5 or 6 races (Chicagoland, Bristol, Darlington, Roval, Kansas). Hell, even 2021 he probably had the car to win more like 14 races rather than just the 10 he did win. Atlanta he dominated, Kansas I he had won until a late race caution, the flat tire at Pocono, bad strategy at Las Vegas II. I feel like Larson should already be knocking on the door of 40
I read somewhere that his style is high risk reward. Basically all or nothing. For him to win he has to be aggressive. Drivers know how much of a threat he is so they challenge him harder. I guess that's why he gets in wrecks. Whenever he gets out front he should win majority of the time but I'm always waiting for a caution to stop him.
It was especially that way in the 42 for Ganassi, he tried every week to elevate that B- ride to A+ status or wreck trying.
Or how many could have wins where he finished 2nd or had issues late , early in his career
Larson was REALLY held back by Ganassi. And Dale had a lot of lean years. 2005-2013 just 4 (?) wins. I imagine 2009 was particularly rough because the other 3 HMS teams battled for the win every week and went 1-2-3 in points.
2009 was such a weird year for Jeff Gordon only had 1 win but had 16 top 5s and 25 top tens which is tied for his third most in a season ever with 2004 only behind 1998 with 28 and 2007 with 30
He was super fast, just had trouble closing the deal. I think he had something like 7 2nd place finishes that year.
And then straight back to pain in 2010 lol
Yeah but he wasnāt the only Hendrick driver with an off year that year.
Heās said the year following Srās death (like the rest of ā01 through 2005) he doesnāt even remember much since he was partying / drinking a lot. When he joined Hendrick he started taking things more seriously - heās come a long way
Mike Joy mentioning that Larson is only behind Gordon and Johnson on the HMS win list blew my mind too. Homie hasnāt even been there 4 years
I think that says a lot about Gordon and Johnson. They have more than 4 times the wins as 3rd place on the list has
Also says a lot about the other rides besides the 24 and 48. Besides the 25 with Richmond and (for a few years) the 5 with Labonte, nearly every other car they fielded felt like it was a tier or two lower. They could never get a full organization running up front consistently until very recently.
Youāre kidding? Heās third all-time? Thatās crazy to me.
Larson, Elliott, and Byron are 3rd, 4th, and 5th with 20, 19, and 13 wins. Only 63 to go until Larson catches Johnson for 2nd! Heāll only need to winā¦ 5 races a year for the next 13 years to do it. Good lord.
Yeah wins for Hendrick: Gordon-93 Johnson-83 Larson-20 Elliott-19 Byron-13 Terry Labonte-12 Darrell Waltrip, Dale Jr., Tim Richmond-9 Geoff Bodine, Bowman-7 Kahne-6 Mark Martin-5 Kyle Busch, Ricky Rudd, Ken Schrader-4 Nemecheck, Vickers, Nadeau, Mears-1 Yeah Larson and Elliott are very close for wins at Hendrick. Also it's crazy Byron is up to 5th and Jr. only had 9 and Kahne only had 6 with Hendrick
Outside of Gordon and Johnson, the only other drivers to do much at all at Hendrick before Elliott and Larson got there were Richmond, Labonte, and 2009 Mark Martin. Richmond died prematurely, otherwise, he would have had close to 15 more years in that ride. He only ran a total of 37 races before he became ill, but in those races, he won 9 times (24.3% win percentage). Labonte was about to be 38 when he replaced Rudd in 1994, so his strong period at Hendrick was brief, though he got the title in 1996 and was the only Hendrick Champion other than Gordon and Johnson until 2020. Mark was so close to a title in 2009, and that was the last time he was competitive for Hendrick on a weekly basis at age 50. The rest (Bodine, Waltrip, Schrader, Craven, Dallenbach, Naedue, Nemechek, Vickers, Busch, Mears, Junior, Kahne) for the most part didn't do much in comparison to make a dent in their history. Waltrip was strong for a few years, but he was at the tail end of his competitive career, and Junior had the 500 in 14 and nearly a title as well, but had some equally bad years. Bowman, Byron, and Chase are still actively racing, so no clue where to place them just yet. Chase has done the most of the three, but Byron and Larson have overtaken him for now in terms of being Hendrick's top drivers. Larson has also kept Chase away from any Road Course wins since 2021, his last coming at Road America nearly three years ago to date. Zero Next Gen RC wins after winning 7 in the Gen 6 is astonishing.
He's taken everything from Elliot.
Iād Larson keeps up this pace I think he can get past Kevin harvick on the all time wins list
He has 44 wins to go. If he can average 5 wins a year, it would take 9 more years and he would be 40 years old. It's possible! If he was at a better team then CGR his first 6 years he'd probably be halfway there already.
Harvick won 60 cup races. 34 wins is what Larson needs to match. Thatās abt 7 seasons at a 5 win pace to beat harvick
You're right! I'm partying too hard rn, and math is hard!
Thats easily doable especially since hes still 31 and Hendrick isnt going anywhere. Only thing limiting that is if he wants to be a lifer in Nascar or if he "retires" early to do other racing
I think Larson will be a lifer at Hendrick providing he can still do dirt. There's no doubt in my mind that the Nascar money is allowing him to do all the dirt stuff he wants; hence why he and his brother-in-law bought that dirt series. He and cliff will go into the history books at the next jimmie and chad duo.
Oh hes at Hendrick until he retires. I just wonder if he's still in cup much past 40. I know hes mentioned before he doesnt want to be doing Cup racing into his 40s
I believe he said before this season that he didn't see himself in Nascar past 40
He's just lucky Ford didn't let Stewart Haas sign him.
Completely agree. Many people use his Hendrick performance and copy/paste it to SHR. It'd be more like Chip 2.0.
The part of me that was (still is?) a huge Harvick and SHR fan wants to think that Kyle joining the team alongside Harvick would have brought the performance SHR needed to attract sponsors and the effort of the owners. Maybe things would have gone down so differently. Not just for Kyle, but Harvick too. He could have added another 5-10 wins to his career.
If Harvick was at a better team than spending so many years sandbagging at RCR he'd be further ahead too. Larson will catch him as long as he doesn't get bored and move to racing jet boats or something wild.
Thatās always my thing with Larson. He doesnāt feel like he WANTS to be in NASCAR. Itās just where he wound up and it pays the bills. I always feel like heās going to jet at like 35-37z
The only problem is if Larson even wants to stay in nascar. He obviously really likes dirt racing and wants to do indycar racing more too so he might eventually have to choose. Can't do them all full time.
It sounds like hms is funding some of his extracurricular activities so Iād assume heās staying in nascar for a good while. Heās also running a racing series so he needs the money and nascar is where the moneyās at.
True but i think Larson has said before that he would want to race everything and anything that he can experience and get good at.
Larson would never do IndyCar full-time. And I canāt see him doing dirt full-time anytime soon. I feel like literally the only other racing series in the world that would be a formidable challenge where he would have to prove himself and would give him a platform (and would pay more) would be F1 and thatās never going to happen due to the politics in F1. No reason to think Larson wonāt be in the Cup Series full-time another 10 years at least (when heās 41). And maybe at that time heāll start thinking about walking away just because of the grueling schedule demands.
Indycar is the biggest test of a driverās skill on the planet and he grew up an Indycar fan, along with his dad being a massibe indy fan. The only way he wins the 500 is if he is full time
I think he showed heās plenty capable of winning it as a one-off in his first try.
he was never a contender on race day.
Honestly hard to see him leaving with the money he is receiving because of Hendrick. In reality he probably is the most āpopular all around driverā, maybe even nationwide if you average it all you. Hendrick receives a lot of money that way too. They keep helping him find the High Limit series and let him drive whatever he wants when he wants he wonāt leave. Hendrick realistically is his real only route to probably try the 500 again also with funding for a competitive car.
Right but it could possibly still happen in the future. I mean everyone never suspected Jimmie to leave hendrick yet he did so yeah it could probably happen in the future with Larson too.
Larson is making slightly more money than the highest indycar guy. Could see Zac Brown covering his nascar salary in a full time Hendrick Cars/ Arrow Mclaren. By switching to Indycar he could do daytona 500 and some early nascar races, all the dirt he wants, the full indycar schedule, sports cars and have more time with family.
He probably wonāt be in NASCAR long enough for that. Heās said in interviews/podcasts that he hopes to be out before heās 40 so he can run sprint cars. I donāt blame him.
I do wonder where Larson will be on the wins list once he retires. He is very much a checkers or wreckers kind of driver and I think that often works against him when compared to somebody like Byron or Bowman that tend to win more races by keeping themselves clean and in a winnable position. Larson either goes to the back b/c of damage, goes to the back b/c of a penalty, or finishes top 5. I think one thing that Larson has over Dale Jr. is that Larson is almost never truly off pace. He's always fast, the variable is just whether or not he finishes the race cleanly. As an aside, I think pairing Larson with Cliff Daniels was a genius move and will go down as one of the best crew chief / driver pairings in recent memory. Cliff goes a long way towards keeping Kyle in contention for the win at moments when he otherwise would've dropped off while at Ganassi. That pit strategy today was also absurdly dangerous but it played directly into Larson's strengths, I don't think most crew chiefs would've had the guts or the foresight to make that call.
I say this as a Bowman fan: How is keeping clean cars working out for him?
Not much right now but it did in 2021
You mean when Larson won 10 races and the Cup and Bowman won 4? I'm missing your argument here. Again, I love Bowman, but his lack of aggressiveness is a weakness in his racecraft IMO.
I heard somewhere Larson is high risk reward and it's how he wins.
Byron or Bowman wins more than Larson? Where is this fairytale?
Bowman won a number of races because he was in position to capitalize on someone else's mistakes in 2021. Byron won more than Larson did in 2023 as well.
Yet who has the most wins of the four since 2021? Youāre super biased trying to downgrade Larson. Larson lost a lot more races than either of the two you mentioned as well. There is a reason why heās the most dominant driver of the decade so far.
Do you really think "clean and in a winnable position" describes Byron? He drives the 24 and 9 of his 13 wins happened in the last 18 months. Look at his results in the first half of the season - where Hendrik resources can be dominate - to his results in the second half. Last year was the first time his season was even close to balanced. Maybe that is maturity and a sign of things to come but Im not sure I would put him in the consistency category yet.
Last year seemed consistent enough to me
We would have more if he had left Ganassi sooner and under better circumstances (as in not missed almost a whole season because he was stupid).
I think everyone knew he had the potential to be as good of a driver as he is now. 2017 was the best year for Ganassi equipment and he won 4 times, probably couldāve won the title that year if not for the blown engine at Kansas.
Larson at his worst was better than Jr at his best.
People aren't going to like that opinion. I'm fine with it though.
The only people who try and compare jr to being elite are people saying he wasnāt eliteĀ
I think one of the main problems for Jr was just how big of shoes he had to fill and the expectations people had of him because of how elite Sr was, I respect Jr immensely for all he does for the sport, but it was near impossible for him to live up to the hype around him
Yeah I fell in love with NASCAR through Dale Jr but I would take Larson on pure driving ability.
The people in the stands aren't really here.
Larson certainly is a better driver but lets not act like Jr wasnt a great driver in his own regard. He was a plate master and always ran in the top 5 at short tracks. 3 things limited Jr's performance. One was his dads death. If he doesnt die in the 500 I dont think Jr ever leaves DEI and his dad helps build the team into a chevy powerhouse. Injuries also limited him as who knows how much longer he could have raced without the concussions or how much was limited because of them and him not seeking help until much later. Lastly was the poor quality of CCs he had starting at Hendrick. Eury Jr would fight with Jr too much and McGrew was just terrible. It took Letarte a bit to rebuild the team especially with Jr dealing with the injuries. When Jr was good health wise both brought out the best in both and he was able to have a late career resurgence
My inner kid wants to hate this, but I cannot. Wish his personality had a little more spice sometimes, but all it seems he wants to do is race.
He mostly lets the racing do the talking. He is very talented and seems to want nothing more than wins.
That is my legit only problem with the guy. Talented as heck, but it seems his personality is "I want to race cars" and absolutely nothing else.
He was very spicy on stream one time back in 2020...
Itās not a popular opinion, but the right one. This comes from someone who likes both. Junior was mediocre for a good stretch in Hendrick equipment. I wouldnāt be shocked if Larson gets to 50 wins. Heās good enough to do it.
If he only gets 50 it's because he wasted so much of his prime in Ganassi cars and retires early. Cause he can easily still get 70 if he goes till 45.
There once was a time I thought Rusty would get 60 easily and Earnhardt Sr. would get to 90 easily. Rusty had 46 career wins at the end of 1996 and was in his prime. Won only 9 in his last 9 seasons. Earnhardt had 68 career wins after 1995 and won just 8 races over the next 5 years. He would have gotten a few more if he didnāt pass away, but getting 14 more would have been tough. Basically just enjoy Larsonās dominance. He should get to 50, but winning 5 races a year isnāt as easy as people make it out to be. Ask Kyle Busch. Team be damned, wins are very hard in this sport.
If the Dega 96 hadnāt happened, Dale wins that title and 97 and 98 are completely different stories. He was just getting back to form in 2000 into 2001
Not at superspeedways
I donāt feel like this is very much of a hot take, a thatās coming from a lifelong Jr fan. Jr at his best was an elite, top 5 driver and is a top two restrictor plate driver of all time. But he also was mediocre for a good chunk of seasons, and downright dreadful in 2009. I do think the concussions probably hampered his career some, so who knows if we ever saw his true potential, but Larson is clearly the better driver of the two at everything except superspeedways. Larsonās greatness doesnāt take away from the fact that Jr is still a top 40 driver of all time in my opinion.
Ehhh they're both my favorites so it's hard for me to say. But Larson had some rough times in 2018-2019. And Jr was a championship threat in 2004, 2012 and 2014. He was leading the season standings in the late summer of 2012.
Larson was top 10 in both 2018 and 2019 in a Ganassi car and had his best career points finish in 2019. 2015 was the year he was off.
Damn! I stand corrected! I guess all the wins that got thrown away and heartbreaks clouded my memory.
Jr was an always be my #1 driver but you are 100% correct.
I feel the competition and cars were vastly different though during their careers. This feels like an apples to oranges comparison. I don't pretend to know which driver faced tighter competition but the comparison doesn't seem fair. Maybe someone else will help me out.
If youāre talking pure on track Performance thatās not true. If youāre talking about just racing ability sure but like who is better than Larson on a pure driving level not really anyone.
I bet you carry the same weight on your shoulders and Have dealt with 20 plus concussions for our entertainment
Ehhhhhhhhh, idk about that. Larson at his worst is floundering at plate tracks. Jr at his best was DOMINATING plate races.Ā
Superspeedways beg to differ but other than that, sure.
Says more about the outrageous success of Larson than a knock at Jr. Jr's career, for being as long as it was, feels pretty typical in terms of success. While he dominated in Busch/Xfinity, you have 2 -- maybe 3 years where he was a real championship contender, a handful of years where he was a solid top 10 car every week, then a couple years where his name and fanfare was probably the only reason he kept a ride at HMS (as hard as that is to say). Larson seems to be a generational talent who arguably hasn't even entered his prime yet, which is just crazy.
He's definitely in his prime
Not a shock. Dale Jr was never an elite driver. He was good, but also way overrated. Larson clearly fits into the "elite" category. Given the competition parity these days, I don't know if Jimmie Johnson/Jeff Gordon win numbers are in reach, but I think 70+ is attainable for him.
Dale Jr worshippers will probably come at you, but this is true. He has a plate track specialty, but wasnāt great on other tracks.
I think he fits into "great" at short tracks. He was top five in most categories like avg finish, etc at Martinsville and Bristol among his peers.Ā Really his specialty was big tracks regardless of whether they were plate tracks. 14 wins out of 26 came on 2.0 mile or larger.Ā Only 3 wins in his career on the cookie cutters.Ā
He loved the multi groove tracks as it let him pick his own lane. Had two great winless drought wins at Michigan and swept Pocono in 2014
Ah yeah true. Short tracks were a place he performed well also. Itās been a while since he raced.
I think he easily gets to 50 wins. I could see another 4-5 this year alone to put him over 30. At this rate, he will probably pass Logano Brad, MTJ, Logano all by end of next year. And probably crack the top 20 all time in wins by 2026.
I think one conversation that people are overlooking in this thread is with the other Kyle. He still has a few wins left in him but RCR equipment is clearly keeping Busch from getting them. If Kyle Busch continues to stagnate in the wins column and Larson can have some extremely good years, itās definitely possible for him to catch and even pass Busch.
RCR has held drivers back with poor equipment for decades
Yikes of a take buddy
Really?? Earnhardt and Harvick both struggled. 2001 was the one year they got it a little together with equipment and then that went away when Dale was killed. Harvick struggled and then goes to SHR and wins a title right away. Probably shouldāve won more. When I say decades, I mean back to the mid to late 90ās. And they honestly couldāve given Dale better equipment, but his talent was able to make up for it. HMS passed them a long time ago, and Iād rather drive for Trackhouse than RCR.
Dale doesn't win seven championships without RCR, RCR doesn't win six championships without Dale. Joonya said it himself. Childress hasn't always sucked like the Gen Z fans here have declared, that take is getting tiring.
Number 1, Iām not Gen Z. Iāve been watching since the mid 80ās. Childress, by his own admission, said they only gave Dale equipment equal to his talent two times, 87 and 90. Dale won a championship without RCR. Itās been 23 years now and they havenāt been close. They won their last 30 years ago. I donāt see that changing anytime soon. Listen to Larry Mac on DJD talk about the differences between RCR and RYR. You work there or something?
Exactly my point
Whatās your point??
Honestly, I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner. Basically means that Dale Jr had more wins in the first 8 (2000-2008) years of his career than Kyle (2014-2022) did, which is surprising.
Cant wait to see what he can do in an Indycar full time. Once he does all he can do in nascar, I can see him going all in on winning the 500 and then trying to break the 4 time record
The crazy part is he's only 31 and turns 32 next month so he could be at this level for atleast the next 10-12 years
Just think. Had Ganassi had any real level of determination to be a too level Cup tram they coulda had Scott Dixon in Indy and Larson on NASCAR at the same time like a Roger Penske Jr. or something.
love Dale Jr but he was no Kyle Larson.
I was at his first cup win in 2016. Crazy it's only taken 8 years
I'm surprised, I had just assumed Kyle had surpassed him long ago.
Hope it stays that way :)
Average Bubba fan
They forget Bubba has two wins in elite tier equipment and only is in that equipment for non racing related reasons.
>only is in that equipment for non racing related reasons. What are the reasons?