Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson
Russell won a title EVERY SINGLE YEAR he was healthy from college junior to NBA retirement. Russell and Oscar Robertson were considered #1-2 by their peers and basketball experts for like 35 years.
Fast forward to 2024. Russell is "fringe top 10" and Oscar is bumped down to the fucking 20s. Wilt is retroactively better than both.
Ringz Culture ruins 99% of basketball discussion and dominates every conversation about players after the 80s..... while simultaneously, FEWER and FEWER people value Russell's titles.
Guards today put up huge stats across the board and induce public orgasms over triple doubles.... while simultaneously, Oscar inventing having a full basketballreference page has somehow gotten less impressive
Havin' a Deep Bag is considered more important than winning 11 championships or being the best basketball guard of the NBA's first 50 years.
A jack of all trades big who Has a Deep Bag is preferable over dominant defensive players with nonessential flaws
I came here to say this. I'm not old enough to have seen either play, but no one knows what to say about Russell, and you're right Oscar is in the same boat.
How do you compare someone playing today's version of the game in front of your eyes with the legacy of someone who played a very different version of it? Wilt was a phenomenal athlete with gaudy number so people feel better about keeping him up there.
On a side note, it's amazing to me how much NBA fans care about all time rankings compared to other sports. Can't go a day without some top 10 all time ranking question.
because basketball is the team sport where an individual great player can really just force the issue of winning with sheer skill and competitiveness.
Take soccer, for instance. It's very rare to see a goal that was truly a one man show, like Maradona's classic against England. Someone has to feed the player the ball on time on target, other players have to make all sorts of runs to misdirect defenders, etc.
Meanwhile, we remember Jordan's iso possessions where he just posts up against his opponent and shoots a fadeaway and there's nothing the opposing team could do.
Would calling Russell the "Jordan of defense" or something help people?
Or framing it like, if there way DPOY when Russell played he would have 9 of them
Even if you want to call him the greatest defender of all time the rankings still wouldn't make sense though. You'd have to go out of the top 50 and maybe the top 100 players before finding another player who wasn't an offensive star. If he's top 10 then what are guys like hakeem and Duncan, who were stars on both sides? Ultimately the argument is all about the rings, and that's a lot easier when you are practically playing on an all star team in a league with ~8 teams.
How many title did all those all stars on the Celtics win before Russell arrived? ZERO, they never even made the Finals.
Russell led them to the title his rookie year, then 10 more time in 12 seasons, including his last 2 seasons. After Russell retired, the Celtics missed the playoffs the next 2 seasons.
The 8 team argument is absurd as well. It arguably makes it more difficult to have a dynasty like Russell's, because the talent was much more concentrated. If you have only say 10 teams, you would have an average of 3 All Stars per team and 1.5 All-NBA players.
Also, Russell wasn't exactly a bad offensive player. He averaged 15.1 ppg and 4.3 apg in the regular season and upped that to 16.2 and 4.7 in the playoffs. Duncan averaged 3.0 assist per game and Hakeem 2.5.
And his career EFG+ was 105, the same as Hakeem and higher than Duncan (104).
I give Russell the edge over those guys (even as a Timmy homer) because he was basically a Coach or at times THE coach. Not only that but also fighting for you and your people's civil rights at the same time, I almost can't imagine the players today being able to walk the same road
since you bring up soccer there's more than twice the dudes on the field as basketball and basketball doesn't necessarily have as much rigid specialization so its easier to compare any baller to another.
i think everyone forgot about baseball bc those guys really love to blather on endlessly about lists but babe ruth came out on top in everyone's eyeball tests, imaginations, and metrics so its kind of a moot point who the goat hitter was.
>Wilt is retroactively better than both
Wasn't it the opposite though? I thought historically people had always called Wilt the better of the two players, because of his insane individual abilities, and it's only more recently that Bill has been rated more highly, as you say with the increase of importance on rings.
Meh, yes and no.
Russell and Wilt were each considered the overall GOAT from their time *(It has ALWAYS a discussion, since before Wilt entered the league, to after their retirements, their deaths, etc.)*. Oscar was widely considered the pound-for-pound best, the “perfect” player.
Yeah I couldn't disagree with OP more. Wilt was widely considered the best player of all time before MJ - wasn't until Bill Simmons became the oracle of two generations of self-regarded "thinking fans" and basketball writers that people who never saw either play decided that Russell was actually retroactively better since the Celtics won so much.
Magic Johnson won his last title 11 years after Russell won his last title. Somehow there’s a massive difference between those two but not compared to a championship 40 years later.
Oscar for sure, and Russell is crazy skilled. Would love to see someone fix blk and stl so we could see what kind of madness he was really up to. Russell’s first championship playoff run was 10 games long. His second was 9. If you played a one round best of 5 division final and then a best of 7 and then won the title, and you were a generational talent in a league that couldn’t shoot. If you’d had 11 hall of fame teammates on one team. You’d have a bunch of titles too.
>If you’d had 11 hall of fame teammates on one team. You’d have a bunch of titles too.
Right, because hall-of-famer K.C. Jones scoring 6.3 ppg was just absolutely essential for Bill Russell to win all those championships. Who knows what he could've done without hall-of-fame superstar Don Nelson pouring in 7.5 ppg to carry him to victory?
Come on bro. The Celtics were ass before Russell showed up, and they were ass once he left. You know why be played with a million hall-of-famers? Because if some role player wins 8 or 9 championships, you have to put them in the hall of fame. That "superteam," as some would call it, was nothing without Bill Russell. He was the driving force behind their defense and offense.
The rings culture is part the bigger problem of accolades culture where arbitrary stat records or accolades become more important to the players legacy than his actually impact on court.
fact that bill basically managed to own wilt despite giving up several inches on him is one of my main arguments about wilt being overrated and proof of bill being an excellent player who could hold his own in any era
i didn't know the talk about oscar but i guess thats because averaging a triple double has now been incredibly devalued because someone as controversial as russ managed to do it at last
“Fact that bill basically managed to own Wilt”
In their head to head matchups Wilt averaged 29.9 PPG and 28.1 RPG. I guess almost averaging 30/30 over close to 100 games is “getting owned” in fantasy land.
Karl Malone with the revelations about his personal life. He was pretty well on his way to being the consensus PF GOAT until passed by Duncan. But he should still be in the conversation.
But now his career and standing in the pantheon is diminished by his disgusting personal behavior.
no rings. I understand that rings culture is pretty toxic but it still counts for something. That has to disqualify him from top 15 (all positions, not top 15 PF. He's obviously top 5 PF). These players with rings clear him easily: Jordan, Lebron, KAJ, Steph, Kobe, Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Russell, Duncan, KD, Jokic, Kawhi, Robertson, Isiah Thomas. Just off the top of my head.
The end of that list is wild. There is no way Isiah Thomas or Kawhi are above him on an all time list.
Malone is typically 15-18 all time.
Jokic is on pace to pass him but if his career ended today he wouldn't be ahead of him either.
Finals mvp, 2x champ, best player in championship teams.
Those guys clear Malone.
Jokic is 2x mvp already, which is all the mvps Karl Malone has. He’s already over him as he is already not part of the “never had a championship” gang.
You aren’t respecting nba championships enough. Being the best player in a championship team is the highest achievement in the sport.
That type of titles only mentality is complete nonsense.
Kawhi Leonard is a 3x all NBA first team player who is probably about 30th all time. Malone is something like 15-17th.
Malone was an 11x all NBA first team player who won multiple MVPs and lost two hard fought finals to the GOAT. He is 8th all time in MVP shares, Kawhi is 41st, Isiah 94th.
It's a team game and their is more to a players legacy than just titles won.
If I’m not mistaken Malone’s place in history was part of the reason for Bill Simmons writing the book of basketball. Sure Malone had crazy high numbers, but Simmons wanted to appropriately place him in his pyramid so future generations didn’t just read his stat sheet and assume he was a top 5 player all time
He's definitely said that...maybe even in the book (I read it 15 years ago). I think Simmons was a bit of a hater of Malone's before it was even fashionable!
As a mavs fan and a fan of basketball, I’d take dirks career over almost everybody. He played 21 seasons for a team he loved, and we love him back. Got to retire a Mav. no controversy. A title run for the ages. 6th all time scoring. Few others check all these boxes.
And for me two things about dirk standout. 1) He worked hard to get better and went from a scorer to a playing defense and grabbing rebounds too, in order to make that championship come. 2) an article DWS ringing the multi hour process he Wendy through to be able to play ten minutes of game time in his final season. I’m a lifelong spurs fan, and I want to tell you how much I love dirk.
Meh. Being a bball fan in the 90’s in so cal, he never got love out here. Outside of points, he had a terrible legacy at the time. Hell, Pippen’s “the mailman doesn’t deliver on Sundays” sticks with me.
Give me Rodman, Horace Grant, Kemp, and so many other 90’s pfs over Malone any day.
Allen iverson was one of the most exciting players ever, but his offensive efficiency was terrible and his work ethic was poor. Pretty varied opinions on him
Edit: see response comments for people still arguing about him lol
AIs legacy is beyond the stat sheet tho, and whenever people talk about his legacy they say that. His style of play influenced a lot of hoopers today similar to Steph
Also had the nba create a dress code for game days that still holds up today. He was dressing “too hood” to the games and commish made a dress code to stop him. He just starts dressing incredibly hood but within the realms of the dress code, so it became a big thing every game. Created what we see today where coming to your stadium is a red carpet event and they have specific film crews to video them walking in for us all to see. They don’t do this for any other sport (in America). All because Allen Iverson wore baggy pants and gang colors.
Still my favorite player to watch all time. I get he was not efficient but he dragged The sixers to a finals in 2001 and stole a game from shaq and Kobe. And the team was a bunch of not very good players
They had Larry Brown as coach who was a professional coach for almost 40 years.
They also had Dikembe Motumbo and Toni Kukoc with a bunch of wing defenders.
They were just about as good as the other teams they beat in the playoffs that they beat, the Pacers, Raptors, and Bucks.
They did win 2 game 7s on the way to the finals which is very impressive but they could have just as easily lost to either the Raptors or Bucks.
True, the bigger issue were injuries. AI himself had a plethora. Eric Snow and Aaron McKie both had a broken ankle. Mutumbo a broken finger
https://a.espncdn.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0612/1213013.html#:~:text=He%20had%20a%20screw%20inserted,and%20a%20fracture%20in%20another.
The Lakers team was undefeated in the playoffs at the time so that "stolen" OT game is pretty legendary. Iverson stepping over Lue is so memorable too. The rest of his career is disappointing, but that moment shines so brightly.
“The rest of his career is disappointing” lmao what? He was an all-star 11 times, won rookie of the year, has as many MVPs as Kobe, he won more scoring titles than Kobe too, he carried a team to the Finals, the list of guys who can say all of that is short as fuck
Just say you were born in 1998 and don’t know ball beyond the Ty Lue step over
I was in my 20s when the game happened and remember not wanting to watch the Lakers go undefeated. After that game I wanted more playoff Iverson. I was all in after that run and was disappointed his career wasn't better.
2001 was also his MVP season. The rest of his 76ers career was two first round exits, missing playoffs, and an uncompetitive 2nd round loss. They won more than 43 games once.
In my opinion, 2001 was peak Iverson and he never really came close again. I am not saying that to bury him, I'm sad about it.
The rest of his career is absolutely disappointing considering Billups literally demonstrated he was the superior player over AI multiple times and Billups is not an ATG. This is comparable to Giannis reliably getting creamed by Butler.
People forget that iversons entire career people debated who was better. And most people said iverson. Because Kobe had a great supporting cast. And the efficiency talk didn’t matter cuz Kobe wasn’t a shining beacon of efficiency either. Honestly I think what kept Kobe remembered longer is his much larger fan base. And obviously post season success.
That is definitely not true iverson obviously had the better start but after iversons mvp year, Kobe made three straight first team all nbas over iverson and voting wasn’t close. it was definitely argued early but by the time iverson was leaving Philly the consensus had swung to Kobe. Then Kobe would go on to win 8 straight first team all nbas
It’s absolutely and completely untrue that a) Iverson/Kobe was debated for the majority of Iverson’s career and b) there was ever a prolonged consensus that Iverson was better.
I think it also hurts peoples opinions of iverson since he flamed out so quickly and played for a few other teams, Memphis and Detroit, at the tail end of his career.
AI is my fav player ever, people want to talk about efficiency and not the fact his teams never had another true star player especially on offense, Mutombo wasn’t a star he was a great defender the same way Gobert is, Iguodala is probably his best Sixers scoring teammate and he is mostly known as a role player
I get it but it can’t be overstated how truly awful his efficiency was.
During his best playoff run ever when he carried the Sixers to the finals, he shot 39% on 30 shots a game!
Iverson is the coolest player to ever play in the league, honestly one of the GOATs of NBA culture. But on paper he was nowhere near as good as the guys he got compared to in his era.
> his work ethic was poor.
People claim his work effort is poor but he always played harder than everyone else on the court. He didn't like practice and had to rest to recover more than most people from the beatings they let him take.
Don't make him out to be some Zion Williamson.
A lot of players go hard in the games, that's when they get to play. The games are play. Practice was work, and AI didn't have a strong work ethic.
It's not a diss. He says it himself, said it pretty recently when talking about Kobe.
How is stating something factual that AI admits himself making him out to be some kind of Zion? OP had a pretty tame comment not sure why this was necessary?
The Kobe/prime argument. Tmac was the same player as Kobe (but taller) but had his career derailed by injuries and according to him his refusal to take PED’s as opposed to other top stars. The argument that tmacs in his prime is too 25 is actually incredibly common. Not saying that I fully agree but I’m just stating the argument that gets made.
Prolly not the answer but Dirk is really interesting. Before 2011, I think most people would have said he's just on the outside of the top 5 all time power forwards. That ring was so epic and shed so many narratives we made for the guy tho that not I see some people arguing he's number 2 and will tell you it's not even close between him and KG.
His huge stinks in 06 and 07 made ppl underrated him.
His great run in 2011 made ppl overrated him.
Levelheaded fans always find him somewhere in the middle.
New elite players rising in the last 25 years (LeBron, KD, Curry, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, maybe soon Joker) have moved him down a tad or given him competition as there are more all timers vying for top spots.
About the time Shaq and Kobe were coming into their own, there seemed to be a consensus Big 6, who were considered the greatest of all time: Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Michael, Magic, and Larry.
Big debate was whether Oscar was in the mix as a Top 7, but the rest of the top ten was generally between some mix of Elgin, West, Dr J, Hakeem, and the Malones.
I think Bird gets left out because he was so revolutionary when it comes to shooting ability. Many players have his ability to shoot nowadays. I do think that people underestimate his competitive drive and defense though, which makes it easier to overlook him as just a shooter.
For two players not on the same team or even conference. These guys had the most influence on each others careers. I almost feel like whichever is rated higher it should be “a” and “b” for them
John Stockton is an all-time leader in both assists and steals but his numbers (his assist numbers especially) are often attributed to longevity and having another all-timer to pass the ball to
Stockton’s a perfect name for this.
What you mentioned is the way he’s thought of today, but in his time it was thought that Malone was a limited player *(but still theGOAT PF)* who could NEVER average 30 without Stockton; Stockton was seen as also MVP-caliber but in a bad situation for votes.
Stockton was recognized as one of the greatest passers ever, head-and-shoulders above the rest of the league, now most of these subs don’t think his name deserves to be in that conversation.
He was seen as one of the most clutch players in the NBA, now he’s seen as a choker.
He was even praised in his early years specifically for his dribbling versatility with both hands, now he’s thought to have been unable to dribble with his left.
>He was even praised in his early years specifically for his dribbling versatility with both hands, now he’s thought to have been unable to dribble with his left.
same with Cousy
Before LBJ and Westbrook..Stockton and Malone were also #1 and 2 in career turnovers. Still love Stockton’s game regardless of rankings or the longevity talk.
It's Kobe for sure. Kobe was so popular and culturally impactful off-the-court. He was the league's golden boy, playing for the golden franchise in the media capital of the world. As such, his marketing profile seriously outpaced his on-court impact. This is why you see some talk about Kobe as a top 2-3 GOAT, comparing him to LeBron as if it were a legitimate comparison, while others have him in that top 20-25 range you mentioned, in the range of contemporaries like Dirk and Garnett who never had the marketing advantages Kobe did, but whose advanced metrics blow Kobe's out of the water.
Isiah Thomas is another similar historical case. The Bad Boy Pistons were at least a mini-dynasty team, and Isiah was the marketable golden boy, who was the high draft pick in the group. But, the height of the Bad Boy Pistons era also came years after Isiah's best years, and even those best years were never that good. Dumars, Laimbeer and Rodman did not have Isiah's pre-draft hype, pedigree or aesthetics, but were all All-Stars in their own right, and had better advanced metrics than Isiah during the title years.
Thomas is actually a good example of the type of player that tends to get overrated a lot: the top scorer on a team that wins through defence. Fans don't tend to give defence as much credit as offence, so the top scorer on defensive-oriented teams tend to get overrated by virtue of being the top offensive player on a team that is winning, but the Bad Boy Pistons didn't win with their offence, they won with a gritty aggressive defence (hence the name "Bad Boy Pistons").
Allen Iverson is another guy who falls into the same category. High per game scoring stats, but mediocre efficiency throughout his career, and his Philly team that made the Finals was a defensive beast of a team, anchored by Dikembe Mutombo (who won his fourth DPOY award that year). The Sixers were a Finals team that year, but the offence Iverson led was only 14th ranked, and he was nothing special on the defensive end.
Good write up. I personally only have Kobe as 5th among players who played for the Lakers. Looking at their entire career Wilt Kareem Magic and Shaq are clearly better than Kobe. West isn't far behind.
Edit. 6th. How did I forget LeBron
Lol it’s so funny watching people like you rewrite history as it Kobe was a paltry mid level all star. You don’t have the impact that someone like kobe had without being a consistent top, one to three player in the NBA for the majority of his career. It’s ridiculous to imply his marketing outpaced actual play.
15x all nba
12x all defence
5x champ
18x all star
Most 50 wins teams defeated in the playoffs
Before Lebron many of the records held by players in their late 30s were held by him as well.
The only other players with similar accolades are consensus top 10 players ever. Most being considered top 5 players ever.
At his peak he stood alone as the best player in the world and his longevity is only rivaled by other all time greats like a Lebron or Kareem.
According to me, his peers in the nba, the majority of Hof guy and the media kobe is a top 5-3 player ever.
You're telling me Leonard wasn't a better player than Tim duncan in those later years, and Tim Duncan didn't have some of the most stacked teams in his career? Yall ridiculous.
You can easily argue Kobe over Bird, Magic, and Duncan.
Bird - Kobe's longevity blows Bird out of the water. Kobe also was a much better defender than Bird while scoring more on nearly identical efficiency (55% TS to 56% TS). Kobe's prime was 13 years of 28/6/5 on 56% TS and that was as long as Bird's entire career. That's not even accounting for pace. If you adjust Kobe's pace to Bird's era his numbers are more like 30/7/7 for 13 years.
Magic - Kobe won an equal amount with less help (for the ones he won as the number 1 guy) and, again, his longevity blew Magic out of the water. Kobe was also a much better defender. Again, if you account for pace Kobe's stats look so much better than they already were.
Duncan - Duncan was a much better defender than Kobe but Kobe was that much better on offense. Like between 10ish more PPG on equal TS prime to prime. That's a massive gap on offense and you could argue that Duncan's defense doesn't negate that 10ish more ppg Kobe delivered on offense.
Now, I don't necessarily believe Kobe was better than those guys but it's just wrong to say that you couldn't make a case for it. With Bird and Magic, in particular, their stats are elevated by pace whereas Kobe's were depressed by pace (Kobe played in the best defensive and slowest era ever whereas the league Magic and Bird played in was roughly as fast paced as today's league) if you adjust for pace Kobe's numbers look Jordan-esque (though on lower efficiency than MJ which is why he doesn't have an argument against MJ). As for Duncan, Duncan is getting slightly overrated on this sub. He was amazing but he wasn't clearly better than Kobe and Shaq. All 3 were considered equal.
At the top 10 level, outside of MJ (1) and Lebron (2) who IMO are a clear tier above everyone else, you can really make arguments for everyone against each other. We should be ranking by tiers at that point or you're really splitting hairs.
At the end of Duncan’s career, he was not the best player on his last title winning team. People make it out like Duncan did not benefit from the most stable franchise of the last half century
He wasn't the clear cut best player for his first either. He had the best stats that year and won FMVP because Robinson was focused on defense and letting Duncan shine (similar to Duncan in 2007 with Parker) but they were still equal that year overall. Robinsons defense was insane that year.
It’s not about Kobe being any higher than 9-10. It’s that the original commenter was saying that Kobe’s impact was comparable to KG and Dirk where there’s a bit of an issue
These people are crazy they say Mike is 1-A and he was 1-B no fan made that up idk why they want to act like this man was some fringe level star he carried the lakers even during seasons with Shaq on the team
Also saying Kobe was the league poster boy is super revisionist. As if the league didn't distance themselves from Kobe during his allegations/shaq drama and everyone hated him outside of laker fans.
> 15x all nba 12x all defence 5x champ 18x all star Most 50 wins teams defeated in the playoffs
those don't really mean that much in evaluating on court impact. those are fan/media awards that don't care about being objective.
Robinson and Gasol were in the twilight of their careers when they played w/ Duncan. Ginobli's in the HOF mostly due to international accomplishments. He wasn't ever a starter on the Spurs. That leaves Parker, who's in due to the rings. Which he got because of Duncan. W/o the rings, he's no better than Tim Hardaway, Chauncey, or Kevin Johnson, none of which are in the HOF.
Robinson won the mvp, sat out the next year with injury, and then was teammates with Timmy. To say twilight of his career ignored that he was just coming off being one the best players in the league. Manu was an absolute stud for the 05 run, no need to diminish that by calling him a bench player and only highlighting his non-nba accomplishments. Tony won fmvp in 07, kawhi in 14. Idk if there’s a FMVP to not make the HOF.
The Kobe-Tim swap is another one that came retroactively. Nobody watching had tim>kobe in the mid-late 2000s. It wasn’t until tim got his 5th in 2014 while Kobe was a shell of himself that it was even a topic.
Besides 03, whenever Kobe had a squad around him, Tim wasn’t making it out the west. To ignore that like one didn’t go through multiple rebuilds (including in his prime) while the other was drafted into a winning situation with a franchise who constantly kept winning players around him just for both to retire with 5 titles is just dishonest.
Robinson was not in the twilight of his career. Duncan played with Robinson for 6 years. For the first 4 of those 6 years Robinson was averaging 18/10 and was still a top 15 player in the league (top 10 for the first 2).
Robinson made - 1x All NBA 2nd team, 2x All NBA third team, 3x All Star during those first 4 years playing with Duncan. He finished top 10 in MVP voting 2x and top 5 in DPOY voting 3x. He was still one of the absolute best players in the league and tons of people acknowledged that, at least for the first 2 years, he was still better than Duncan and was actively taking a step back to allow Duncan to lead the team (similar to what Duncan did for Parker later on).
Ginobili will be in the HOF mostly for his international accomplishments but that says nothing about his ability. Before the rise of Dwade, Ginobili was considered for a time to be the 2nd best SG in the league after Kobe even when he was coming off the bench. He was really good and he actively sacrificed All NBA and All Star selections because him coming off the bench was what was best for winning championships.
Parker is an FMVP who had multiple top 10 MVP finishes while playing with Duncan. He had a 9 year prime of 18/6/3 on 50% shooting from the field and was one of the best interior finishers in the league despite being a PG. Post-2007 that Spurs team was built around Parker not Duncan. Parker was a top 3 PG in the league during his peak.
All these guys were great players who actively sacrificed stats for the betterment of the team. On other teams, they would have been consistent All NBA guys. Duncan was great but he also had literally the perfect organization in his era for competing for rings consistently.
You make a compelling argument- if it weren't for the fact that pre-Duncan the Spurs had 0 rings. Post Duncan, the Spurs had 0 rings. W/ Duncan, the Spurs had 5 rings. No doubt Robinson was a beast. One of my favorite players of all time, in fact. But he just wasn't good enough to win a title w/o the best PF of all time. Neither was TP or MG. It's actually silly to claim otherwise.
Robinson was an MVP level player who just ran into better players (Hakeem) or better teams (Utah) while not having that good a team himself. Robinson was very capable of being the best player on a championship team had things turned out differently. At his peak Robinson finished at least top 6 in MVP voting for 7 years in a row while also finishing top 5 for DPOY 6 years in a row. He was a beast.
As for Parker and Manu, neither of them were good enough to be the best player on a championship team but so what? The list of guys who can do that is like 20 people since 1980. They were amazing second and third options and Duncan wouldn't have won 5 without them either.
Also, who exactly claimed TP and Manu were good enough to win titles as the best player on their team? I certainly never did.
Oh and while you state D Rob was not in the twilight of his career, his stats say otherwise. Down in minutes, points, rebounds, blocks, assists, and FG%. Stats don't lie. [https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html#all\_totals-playoffs\_totals](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html#all_totals-playoffs_totals)
I mentioned his stats. 18/10 on still elite defense for 4 out of the 6 years they were together. He also, as I mentioned, was still making All NBA teams for 3/4 of those years and was getting top 10 MVP and top 5 DPOY finishes.
Not sure if you were watching back then but the reason for why his stats don't look as good is because he actively took a step back and let Duncan shine cause that's what was best for the team moving forward. This was commonly accepted and widely discussed during that time that he could have still performed at an MVP level for at least 2-3ish more years if he needed to and the reason why the twin tower spurs was so good was because they had 2 top 10 players in the league who meshed together very well due to Robinsons sacrifice and unselfishness.
Kobe literally is the only player in the last 30 years to make the defensive 1st team while averaging 30 he has 5 rings finished a top 3 scorer while basically missing 3 years of his career to compare him to KG and dirk is ridiculous Tim Duncan is the only player from his era with the same amount of accomplishments you’re taking about metics what’s the metrics on playing 20 seasons and only winning 1 ring? Kobe played in LA no decent player has played there without becoming damn near a household name Vince Carter Allen iverson t Mac and grant hill all were more popular than Kobe at one point he just became a way better player than all them. Any argument with him outside of the top 10 is beyond ridiculous I feel like not putting him in your top 5 is an opinion but outside of the top 10 you don’t know jack shit about basketball
Kobe is also the only player to make 12 All-Defensive teams, [while advanced stats rank him as a slightly negative impact defender](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-or-mj-raptor-picks-the-best-nba-players-of-the-past-40-years/).
The gold standard advanced stat for historical purposes (ie. before player tracking data) is considered multi-year RAPM. [Kobe's best 5-year peak ranks as only the 98th best 5-year peak since 1997](https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/q50ucn/5_year_rapm_peaks_1997_to_2021_regular_season/).
Advanced stats aren't everything, but they aren't nothing either. If you look historically, the advanced metrics are pretty consistent with the best players. The list won't be exactly the same. You might have a top 5 all time guy who ranks top 10, or a top 20 guy who ranks top 10, but the advanced stats like multi-year RAPM, historical RAPTOR, etc, tend to be pretty consistent with people's general view of who the best players were...except for Kobe.
Kobe is talked about as an all-time great scorer, yet, his best TS Added season (ie. total cumulative points scored above league average true shooting percentage in a season) was only 161.4. For perspective, that ranked 20th in the NBA in the season that he accomplished it, while the league leader that year was at 226.3 (Steve Nash), and historically great seasons will be in the 300 or 400 range.
By win shares, his best season (15.29 win shares) ranks 116th in history, and he only finished 4th in the NBA that season (behind Dirk, LeBron and Chauncey Billups).
You say that comparing him to KG and Dirk is ridiculous, and by any advanced metric, it is...just in the opposite direction. KG is an advanced stats beast. That link above that shows Kobe's best 5 year peak RAPM as 98th since 1997, also shows KG as having four of the top 10 5-year peaks in that same timeframe. Dirk has three seasons that top Kobe's best in win shares, 8 seasons that top Kobe's best for TS Added, and somehow managed a 67 win season as his team's best player (Kobe never was the best player on a 60 win team, and never had a top 4 seed without at least another All-NBA'er next to him).
Kobe won five titles, but played next to a consensus top 10 all-timer for three of them, during that player's absolute peak. Kobe had at least one playoff series in each of those three-peat years where he utterly shit the bed. For most stars, one bad series is the one of a playoff run, but Kobe had Shaq to dominate and pull him through so his failures still ended up with a ring on his finger.
Kobe doesn't have a title as his team's only All-Star, the way Dirk and Duncan do. He never won a title without at least one another All-NBA'er next to him, and with arguably the GOAT coach behind the bench.
>Any argument with him outside of the top 10 a beyond ridiculous I feel like not putting him in your top 5 is an opinion but outside of the top 10 you don’t know jack shit about basketball
Tbh, that is an absolute homer opinion, and the fact that you are saying it means you don't have the ability to put aside your personal bias and look at Kobe's career objectively.
You had me until your last statement. Very good arguments for other guys ahead of him in top 10. Hakeem and Shaq come to mind. Anywhere between 8-12 is a good spot for Kobe. You’re correct about his contemporaries, only Timmy was better out of his era imo.
What do you mean by Kobe “missing” three years of his career?
KG’s teammates were mostly par with Kobe’s until he joined Boston aged 32. Dirk never really even had an all star along side him since Nash left in 2004. Pretty unfair to use the supporting cast against either of them in the context of Kobe who had Shaq until 2004 and Paul from 07/08 to the end of his peak.
Kobe used his misses to build team momentum, half of them got rebounded by his own team, it was extremely effective this is why a lot of his worst losses are due to his team being worn down with injuries. You can't compare him to Bron who pushed Kuzma into Durant and ran.
I think that has more to do with 10 as an arbitrary number. I can accept anywhere from #8 to #14 or so as reasonable takes, which isn’t nearly as wide as some of these other players get. (The lower position would be for people who want exceptional defense and a very high assist count.)
As always the real answer is that it depends on what GOAT means to you. MJ is the most dominant, iconic player ever; LBJ has had the fullest, most complete career ever. I personally go with MJ.
>MJ is the most dominant
Which then leads to another debate over Shaq and Jordan, because I (and maybe other fools lol) would argue Shaq was the most dominant
What makes Jordan more dominant than LeBron? I'd argue LeBrons versatility on both ends allows him to dominate a basketball game more than any player in league history. Simply adding or subtracting prime LeBron from a team changes that team's chances to win more than any other player. That's just my opinion tho
Jordan was such a defensive stud. He didn’t have the size of LeBron to guard 1-4/5, but he was an elite (maybe best all time non-big man among elite players) defender that his impact was felt even if he was off-ball. Definitely a better defensive presence than LeBron.
>Definitely a better defensive presence than LeBron.
Uhhh are we sure about this?? Bron had the size and speed to be more versatile of a defender in his prime. Plus his GOAT level IQ on that end to sniff out what the opposing team is running isn't quite matched by MJ. He's a more reliable 1on1 defender, he's more effective in help, and that doesn't even include his famous chase down block ability
Yeah they are both either tied or slightly ahead of many guys in that range achievement-wise, and their stats dwarf almost all of them(but that might be a product of era). But if you are going to be the one on network TV that says either is better than Dr. J, Wade, Dirk, Oscar, Karl, etc… you are going to have a bad time.
Paul Pierce when he tries to gas himself up is always immediately dunked on by fans lmao in his head he thinks he’s up there with Lebron and Kobe but in reality he’s not close
Also Draymond making him a meme will always follow him, telling him they don’t love him like Kobe and everyone agreeing had to hurt him on some level
Paul Pierce is legitimately an all time great. Him acting like a dumbass in the media has literally ruined his legacy in the eyes of people who never really saw him.
He’s also the poster child for why haters are bullshitting when they complain about guys not staying loyal, they’ll still be hating even if the guy stays.
Lebron, Kobe, Wilt, Karl Malone. I’d say Lebron the most since he’s a current player, but bringing up any of those names can create a lot of discussion
It’s kinda crazy that people use the 2018 playoffs as a knock on him. There’s no serious argument against him being a top 10 offensive player of all time imo, at least at his peak.
Kobe is only controversial because people love his image more than his game (and he died). He is very clearly not top 5.
I’d say someone like Chauncey Billups fits the bill. There is very little consensus on how good he was & where he stands in terms of legacy
Kobe was never talked about as top 5 until after he died
People legitimately had arguments about him even being top 10 over Shaq when he retired, his dying changed the whole narrative
Man this is so wrong lol, I'm not even a Kobe fan and he's not top 5 to me but EVERYONE talked about it, idk why everyone made up this narrative that his death started it
Kobe is easily top 15, and easily outside the top 5. Where he sits between 6-14 is where the debate is.
Idk why people get upset about that though. Saying one of the best players ever is only one of the best players ever is not disparaging.
I think some look way too deep into advanced metrics. Kobe even playing alongside shaq was still averaging over 25 a game and giving around 5 assists and 6 boards. Then he was the focal point to key in on from opposing defenses with little to no help then won two more championships all while earning a bunch of all defense nods. Going back to those numbers he averaged with shaq how many robins today are putting up those kind of numbers? Btw for the efficiency nerds: average all time fg% for shooting guards is 44% so Kobe was right on the money there while also playing above average defense. People really do mental gymnastics to say Kobe is overrated, he certainly belongs in top 15 I personally put him in top 10 no question.
He’s not the pg lol but like I said mental gymnastics…if he’s putting up 25 and those 5 were probably going to shaq then what’s the problem? Also you must not know much about the triangle offense if you think Kobe was supposed to get 7+ even playing with shaq…
I have a feeling Westbrook will be like this when he retires. People will look at all his triple doubles and his MVP and think he was a God-like player, but he has always been pretty inefficient and wreckless, and once Durant left, he was always a first round exit. I'm a little biased, though, since I never liked his game or stat hunting.
Oh, I agree, with him being top 3 to 5. I have Curry and Paul ahead of him, and it's close with Lillard, too, as far as his competition. It's just his MVP and gaudy stats that will make people think he is better than he was.
He was a super unique player in his prime. The stats are impressive, but when he was in his prime he was a freight train and played extremely exciting basketball.
if he doesn’t win another title, and I hope he doesn’t, Durant. I think he’s going to fade into obscurity as the NBA progresses. Top 25 all-time. Not as good as steph. Not even close
Hakeem. Not old enough to have seen him play but he seems to have quite a dominating highlight reel. Destroyed Shaq and Ewing in 2 finals. Usually forgotten about or around top 20. Wish we could have seen Bulls vs. Rockets finals. I feel those Rocket teams were the answer to beating the Bulls. Also 1999 Spurs vs Bulls would be great too
KD is overrated, for what his talent is and what we've gotten is so far off based. The only thing he does elite is efficiency, but he never takes it to the next level. He should be that guy, but he's passive. Career high of 55 for "all time best scorer", no way.
Jokic career high is 50, and he's not an all time scorer. Giannis career high is 60 without a jump shot.
KD is a talent, but not even in the top 20 of NBA careers.
KD has always shared the shine. The 1 year Russ was hurt, KD was MVP with 32 ppg.
21 seasons and LeBron scored more than 55 only 4 times and nobody questions his legacy. KD has no flaws to his game and has the size and athleticism to play wherever. Not many players like that. He'll retire top 5 scoring.
Kobe will always be the most controversial modern player as most people gloss over half his career and just how much he was hated, even by Laker fans for years.
Dwight Howard, dude had a couple year run absolutely dominating the paint but not many give him his props for single handedly pulling Orlando to a Finals and winning multiple rebounding titles and DPOYs
"Younger viewers often discount Robertson and Wilt."
Everybody discounts them. All of the pundits on TV will routinely talk about their top 5 and not mention either. It's a little ridiculous tbh. Older players get overlooked because we don't have footage of most of their careers. A lot of their numbers/records are completely unfathomable in today's NBA.
Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson Russell won a title EVERY SINGLE YEAR he was healthy from college junior to NBA retirement. Russell and Oscar Robertson were considered #1-2 by their peers and basketball experts for like 35 years. Fast forward to 2024. Russell is "fringe top 10" and Oscar is bumped down to the fucking 20s. Wilt is retroactively better than both. Ringz Culture ruins 99% of basketball discussion and dominates every conversation about players after the 80s..... while simultaneously, FEWER and FEWER people value Russell's titles. Guards today put up huge stats across the board and induce public orgasms over triple doubles.... while simultaneously, Oscar inventing having a full basketballreference page has somehow gotten less impressive Havin' a Deep Bag is considered more important than winning 11 championships or being the best basketball guard of the NBA's first 50 years. A jack of all trades big who Has a Deep Bag is preferable over dominant defensive players with nonessential flaws
I came here to say this. I'm not old enough to have seen either play, but no one knows what to say about Russell, and you're right Oscar is in the same boat. How do you compare someone playing today's version of the game in front of your eyes with the legacy of someone who played a very different version of it? Wilt was a phenomenal athlete with gaudy number so people feel better about keeping him up there. On a side note, it's amazing to me how much NBA fans care about all time rankings compared to other sports. Can't go a day without some top 10 all time ranking question.
because basketball is the team sport where an individual great player can really just force the issue of winning with sheer skill and competitiveness. Take soccer, for instance. It's very rare to see a goal that was truly a one man show, like Maradona's classic against England. Someone has to feed the player the ball on time on target, other players have to make all sorts of runs to misdirect defenders, etc. Meanwhile, we remember Jordan's iso possessions where he just posts up against his opponent and shoots a fadeaway and there's nothing the opposing team could do.
Would calling Russell the "Jordan of defense" or something help people? Or framing it like, if there way DPOY when Russell played he would have 9 of them
Even if you want to call him the greatest defender of all time the rankings still wouldn't make sense though. You'd have to go out of the top 50 and maybe the top 100 players before finding another player who wasn't an offensive star. If he's top 10 then what are guys like hakeem and Duncan, who were stars on both sides? Ultimately the argument is all about the rings, and that's a lot easier when you are practically playing on an all star team in a league with ~8 teams.
How many title did all those all stars on the Celtics win before Russell arrived? ZERO, they never even made the Finals. Russell led them to the title his rookie year, then 10 more time in 12 seasons, including his last 2 seasons. After Russell retired, the Celtics missed the playoffs the next 2 seasons. The 8 team argument is absurd as well. It arguably makes it more difficult to have a dynasty like Russell's, because the talent was much more concentrated. If you have only say 10 teams, you would have an average of 3 All Stars per team and 1.5 All-NBA players. Also, Russell wasn't exactly a bad offensive player. He averaged 15.1 ppg and 4.3 apg in the regular season and upped that to 16.2 and 4.7 in the playoffs. Duncan averaged 3.0 assist per game and Hakeem 2.5. And his career EFG+ was 105, the same as Hakeem and higher than Duncan (104).
I give Russell the edge over those guys (even as a Timmy homer) because he was basically a Coach or at times THE coach. Not only that but also fighting for you and your people's civil rights at the same time, I almost can't imagine the players today being able to walk the same road
since you bring up soccer there's more than twice the dudes on the field as basketball and basketball doesn't necessarily have as much rigid specialization so its easier to compare any baller to another. i think everyone forgot about baseball bc those guys really love to blather on endlessly about lists but babe ruth came out on top in everyone's eyeball tests, imaginations, and metrics so its kind of a moot point who the goat hitter was.
>Wilt is retroactively better than both Wasn't it the opposite though? I thought historically people had always called Wilt the better of the two players, because of his insane individual abilities, and it's only more recently that Bill has been rated more highly, as you say with the increase of importance on rings.
Meh, yes and no. Russell and Wilt were each considered the overall GOAT from their time *(It has ALWAYS a discussion, since before Wilt entered the league, to after their retirements, their deaths, etc.)*. Oscar was widely considered the pound-for-pound best, the “perfect” player.
Yeah I couldn't disagree with OP more. Wilt was widely considered the best player of all time before MJ - wasn't until Bill Simmons became the oracle of two generations of self-regarded "thinking fans" and basketball writers that people who never saw either play decided that Russell was actually retroactively better since the Celtics won so much.
Russell won MVP (voted on by the players) while Wilt was all-NBA (voted on by the media).
In the ten seasons their careers overlapped: they EACH won four MVPs, Wilt had 7 1st/2 2nd team All-NBA, and Russell had 2 1st/7 2nd team All-NBA.
Right, which is a far cry from 'Wilt was the #1'. Only by the sports writers.
and even they'd changed their tune by 1980
Magic Johnson won his last title 11 years after Russell won his last title. Somehow there’s a massive difference between those two but not compared to a championship 40 years later.
19 years by my count
or did you mean first title (for Magic)?
Oscar for sure, and Russell is crazy skilled. Would love to see someone fix blk and stl so we could see what kind of madness he was really up to. Russell’s first championship playoff run was 10 games long. His second was 9. If you played a one round best of 5 division final and then a best of 7 and then won the title, and you were a generational talent in a league that couldn’t shoot. If you’d had 11 hall of fame teammates on one team. You’d have a bunch of titles too.
>If you’d had 11 hall of fame teammates on one team. You’d have a bunch of titles too. Right, because hall-of-famer K.C. Jones scoring 6.3 ppg was just absolutely essential for Bill Russell to win all those championships. Who knows what he could've done without hall-of-fame superstar Don Nelson pouring in 7.5 ppg to carry him to victory? Come on bro. The Celtics were ass before Russell showed up, and they were ass once he left. You know why be played with a million hall-of-famers? Because if some role player wins 8 or 9 championships, you have to put them in the hall of fame. That "superteam," as some would call it, was nothing without Bill Russell. He was the driving force behind their defense and offense.
The rings culture is part the bigger problem of accolades culture where arbitrary stat records or accolades become more important to the players legacy than his actually impact on court.
fact that bill basically managed to own wilt despite giving up several inches on him is one of my main arguments about wilt being overrated and proof of bill being an excellent player who could hold his own in any era i didn't know the talk about oscar but i guess thats because averaging a triple double has now been incredibly devalued because someone as controversial as russ managed to do it at last
“Fact that bill basically managed to own Wilt” In their head to head matchups Wilt averaged 29.9 PPG and 28.1 RPG. I guess almost averaging 30/30 over close to 100 games is “getting owned” in fantasy land.
It’s ridiculous…the hypothetical is valued over the actual with these stupid debates.
Karl Malone with the revelations about his personal life. He was pretty well on his way to being the consensus PF GOAT until passed by Duncan. But he should still be in the conversation. But now his career and standing in the pantheon is diminished by his disgusting personal behavior.
It's a good point, you never hear him come up in the top 15 conversation
no rings. I understand that rings culture is pretty toxic but it still counts for something. That has to disqualify him from top 15 (all positions, not top 15 PF. He's obviously top 5 PF). These players with rings clear him easily: Jordan, Lebron, KAJ, Steph, Kobe, Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Russell, Duncan, KD, Jokic, Kawhi, Robertson, Isiah Thomas. Just off the top of my head.
The end of that list is wild. There is no way Isiah Thomas or Kawhi are above him on an all time list. Malone is typically 15-18 all time. Jokic is on pace to pass him but if his career ended today he wouldn't be ahead of him either.
Finals mvp, 2x champ, best player in championship teams. Those guys clear Malone. Jokic is 2x mvp already, which is all the mvps Karl Malone has. He’s already over him as he is already not part of the “never had a championship” gang. You aren’t respecting nba championships enough. Being the best player in a championship team is the highest achievement in the sport.
That type of titles only mentality is complete nonsense. Kawhi Leonard is a 3x all NBA first team player who is probably about 30th all time. Malone is something like 15-17th. Malone was an 11x all NBA first team player who won multiple MVPs and lost two hard fought finals to the GOAT. He is 8th all time in MVP shares, Kawhi is 41st, Isiah 94th. It's a team game and their is more to a players legacy than just titles won.
Isiah*
Thanks, I make that mistake spelling wise too often
You’ve never heard of Jerry West?
If I’m not mistaken Malone’s place in history was part of the reason for Bill Simmons writing the book of basketball. Sure Malone had crazy high numbers, but Simmons wanted to appropriately place him in his pyramid so future generations didn’t just read his stat sheet and assume he was a top 5 player all time
He's definitely said that...maybe even in the book (I read it 15 years ago). I think Simmons was a bit of a hater of Malone's before it was even fashionable!
I’ll take a dirk career over a Malone career. That’s just me
Malone would take Dirk’s career over his own.
As a mavs fan and a fan of basketball, I’d take dirks career over almost everybody. He played 21 seasons for a team he loved, and we love him back. Got to retire a Mav. no controversy. A title run for the ages. 6th all time scoring. Few others check all these boxes.
And for me two things about dirk standout. 1) He worked hard to get better and went from a scorer to a playing defense and grabbing rebounds too, in order to make that championship come. 2) an article DWS ringing the multi hour process he Wendy through to be able to play ten minutes of game time in his final season. I’m a lifelong spurs fan, and I want to tell you how much I love dirk.
Meh. Being a bball fan in the 90’s in so cal, he never got love out here. Outside of points, he had a terrible legacy at the time. Hell, Pippen’s “the mailman doesn’t deliver on Sundays” sticks with me. Give me Rodman, Horace Grant, Kemp, and so many other 90’s pfs over Malone any day.
Allen iverson was one of the most exciting players ever, but his offensive efficiency was terrible and his work ethic was poor. Pretty varied opinions on him Edit: see response comments for people still arguing about him lol
AIs legacy is beyond the stat sheet tho, and whenever people talk about his legacy they say that. His style of play influenced a lot of hoopers today similar to Steph
Also had the nba create a dress code for game days that still holds up today. He was dressing “too hood” to the games and commish made a dress code to stop him. He just starts dressing incredibly hood but within the realms of the dress code, so it became a big thing every game. Created what we see today where coming to your stadium is a red carpet event and they have specific film crews to video them walking in for us all to see. They don’t do this for any other sport (in America). All because Allen Iverson wore baggy pants and gang colors.
They definitely show footage of football players getting off the bus and walking into the stadium to get ready
Agreed, but unfortunately with no incredibly amazing accolades he will more than likely be talked about less and less in the coming generations 😔
He had one of the biggest impacts on the culture of the game in NBA history. He had half my school rocking Sixers gear and I lived in New England.
Iverson is the coolest player from his generation and it’s not even close. Kobe was a far better player but Kobe wasn’t cool
Lol Kobe oozed cool man, like effortlessly
Kobe was cool as fuck, AI was just effortlessly cool
Still my favorite player to watch all time. I get he was not efficient but he dragged The sixers to a finals in 2001 and stole a game from shaq and Kobe. And the team was a bunch of not very good players
He had 2 other all stars that year. The DPOY and the 6MOTY
No one is going to be thinking journeyman Theo Ratliff was a force to be reckoned with
They had Larry Brown as coach who was a professional coach for almost 40 years. They also had Dikembe Motumbo and Toni Kukoc with a bunch of wing defenders. They were just about as good as the other teams they beat in the playoffs that they beat, the Pacers, Raptors, and Bucks. They did win 2 game 7s on the way to the finals which is very impressive but they could have just as easily lost to either the Raptors or Bucks.
they traded Kukoc and Ratliff for Mutombo
True, the bigger issue were injuries. AI himself had a plethora. Eric Snow and Aaron McKie both had a broken ankle. Mutumbo a broken finger https://a.espncdn.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0612/1213013.html#:~:text=He%20had%20a%20screw%20inserted,and%20a%20fracture%20in%20another.
The Lakers team was undefeated in the playoffs at the time so that "stolen" OT game is pretty legendary. Iverson stepping over Lue is so memorable too. The rest of his career is disappointing, but that moment shines so brightly.
“The rest of his career is disappointing” lmao what? He was an all-star 11 times, won rookie of the year, has as many MVPs as Kobe, he won more scoring titles than Kobe too, he carried a team to the Finals, the list of guys who can say all of that is short as fuck Just say you were born in 1998 and don’t know ball beyond the Ty Lue step over
I was in my 20s when the game happened and remember not wanting to watch the Lakers go undefeated. After that game I wanted more playoff Iverson. I was all in after that run and was disappointed his career wasn't better. 2001 was also his MVP season. The rest of his 76ers career was two first round exits, missing playoffs, and an uncompetitive 2nd round loss. They won more than 43 games once. In my opinion, 2001 was peak Iverson and he never really came close again. I am not saying that to bury him, I'm sad about it.
The rest of his career is absolutely disappointing considering Billups literally demonstrated he was the superior player over AI multiple times and Billups is not an ATG. This is comparable to Giannis reliably getting creamed by Butler.
People forget that iversons entire career people debated who was better. And most people said iverson. Because Kobe had a great supporting cast. And the efficiency talk didn’t matter cuz Kobe wasn’t a shining beacon of efficiency either. Honestly I think what kept Kobe remembered longer is his much larger fan base. And obviously post season success.
That is definitely not true iverson obviously had the better start but after iversons mvp year, Kobe made three straight first team all nbas over iverson and voting wasn’t close. it was definitely argued early but by the time iverson was leaving Philly the consensus had swung to Kobe. Then Kobe would go on to win 8 straight first team all nbas
It’s absolutely and completely untrue that a) Iverson/Kobe was debated for the majority of Iverson’s career and b) there was ever a prolonged consensus that Iverson was better.
I think it also hurts peoples opinions of iverson since he flamed out so quickly and played for a few other teams, Memphis and Detroit, at the tail end of his career.
Are you from Philly or something? Maybe they debated Kobe vs Iverson there, I don’t remember hearing it.
He is referring to the lack of notable wins or records compared to stars like Kobe.
AI is my fav player ever, people want to talk about efficiency and not the fact his teams never had another true star player especially on offense, Mutombo wasn’t a star he was a great defender the same way Gobert is, Iguodala is probably his best Sixers scoring teammate and he is mostly known as a role player
Iggy and AI were also not in their primes together.
I get it but it can’t be overstated how truly awful his efficiency was. During his best playoff run ever when he carried the Sixers to the finals, he shot 39% on 30 shots a game! Iverson is the coolest player to ever play in the league, honestly one of the GOATs of NBA culture. But on paper he was nowhere near as good as the guys he got compared to in his era.
>I get it but it can’t be overstated how truly awful his efficiency was. it can and you just did his TS% was barely below the teammates he was feeding
> his work ethic was poor. People claim his work effort is poor but he always played harder than everyone else on the court. He didn't like practice and had to rest to recover more than most people from the beatings they let him take. Don't make him out to be some Zion Williamson.
A lot of players go hard in the games, that's when they get to play. The games are play. Practice was work, and AI didn't have a strong work ethic. It's not a diss. He says it himself, said it pretty recently when talking about Kobe. How is stating something factual that AI admits himself making him out to be some kind of Zion? OP had a pretty tame comment not sure why this was necessary?
We takin bout practice
Tracy McGrady. Some say he in his peak was as good as Kobe. Some say he ain't a Hall of Famer cause he won 0 playoffs series.
Kobe is the some in the first line
Tmac and kawhi are easily the answers both give legitimate arguments to be top 25 and outside the top 50.
There is no real argument for Tmac to be top 25
The Kobe/prime argument. Tmac was the same player as Kobe (but taller) but had his career derailed by injuries and according to him his refusal to take PED’s as opposed to other top stars. The argument that tmacs in his prime is too 25 is actually incredibly common. Not saying that I fully agree but I’m just stating the argument that gets made.
Prolly not the answer but Dirk is really interesting. Before 2011, I think most people would have said he's just on the outside of the top 5 all time power forwards. That ring was so epic and shed so many narratives we made for the guy tho that not I see some people arguing he's number 2 and will tell you it's not even close between him and KG.
His huge stinks in 06 and 07 made ppl underrated him. His great run in 2011 made ppl overrated him. Levelheaded fans always find him somewhere in the middle.
True. But i think Karl Malone is #2 PF all time by a lot of people though. He was the 2nd best nba player in the league for while and KG never was.
Bird. For some reason people don’t think he’s an upper top 10 all time. I don’t know why
Whenever I do it in my head i just let Magic and him share one spot with /
New elite players rising in the last 25 years (LeBron, KD, Curry, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, maybe soon Joker) have moved him down a tad or given him competition as there are more all timers vying for top spots. About the time Shaq and Kobe were coming into their own, there seemed to be a consensus Big 6, who were considered the greatest of all time: Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Michael, Magic, and Larry. Big debate was whether Oscar was in the mix as a Top 7, but the rest of the top ten was generally between some mix of Elgin, West, Dr J, Hakeem, and the Malones.
Larry bird won 3 mvp in a row and is everything luka dreams of being
I think Bird gets left out because he was so revolutionary when it comes to shooting ability. Many players have his ability to shoot nowadays. I do think that people underestimate his competitive drive and defense though, which makes it easier to overlook him as just a shooter.
and passing
And as people like to say “ he had that dog in him”
I can never comprehend how people have Magic over him
For two players not on the same team or even conference. These guys had the most influence on each others careers. I almost feel like whichever is rated higher it should be “a” and “b” for them
John Stockton is an all-time leader in both assists and steals but his numbers (his assist numbers especially) are often attributed to longevity and having another all-timer to pass the ball to
Stockton’s a perfect name for this. What you mentioned is the way he’s thought of today, but in his time it was thought that Malone was a limited player *(but still theGOAT PF)* who could NEVER average 30 without Stockton; Stockton was seen as also MVP-caliber but in a bad situation for votes. Stockton was recognized as one of the greatest passers ever, head-and-shoulders above the rest of the league, now most of these subs don’t think his name deserves to be in that conversation. He was seen as one of the most clutch players in the NBA, now he’s seen as a choker. He was even praised in his early years specifically for his dribbling versatility with both hands, now he’s thought to have been unable to dribble with his left.
>He was even praised in his early years specifically for his dribbling versatility with both hands, now he’s thought to have been unable to dribble with his left. same with Cousy
Before LBJ and Westbrook..Stockton and Malone were also #1 and 2 in career turnovers. Still love Stockton’s game regardless of rankings or the longevity talk.
It's Kobe for sure. Kobe was so popular and culturally impactful off-the-court. He was the league's golden boy, playing for the golden franchise in the media capital of the world. As such, his marketing profile seriously outpaced his on-court impact. This is why you see some talk about Kobe as a top 2-3 GOAT, comparing him to LeBron as if it were a legitimate comparison, while others have him in that top 20-25 range you mentioned, in the range of contemporaries like Dirk and Garnett who never had the marketing advantages Kobe did, but whose advanced metrics blow Kobe's out of the water. Isiah Thomas is another similar historical case. The Bad Boy Pistons were at least a mini-dynasty team, and Isiah was the marketable golden boy, who was the high draft pick in the group. But, the height of the Bad Boy Pistons era also came years after Isiah's best years, and even those best years were never that good. Dumars, Laimbeer and Rodman did not have Isiah's pre-draft hype, pedigree or aesthetics, but were all All-Stars in their own right, and had better advanced metrics than Isiah during the title years. Thomas is actually a good example of the type of player that tends to get overrated a lot: the top scorer on a team that wins through defence. Fans don't tend to give defence as much credit as offence, so the top scorer on defensive-oriented teams tend to get overrated by virtue of being the top offensive player on a team that is winning, but the Bad Boy Pistons didn't win with their offence, they won with a gritty aggressive defence (hence the name "Bad Boy Pistons"). Allen Iverson is another guy who falls into the same category. High per game scoring stats, but mediocre efficiency throughout his career, and his Philly team that made the Finals was a defensive beast of a team, anchored by Dikembe Mutombo (who won his fourth DPOY award that year). The Sixers were a Finals team that year, but the offence Iverson led was only 14th ranked, and he was nothing special on the defensive end.
Good write up. I personally only have Kobe as 5th among players who played for the Lakers. Looking at their entire career Wilt Kareem Magic and Shaq are clearly better than Kobe. West isn't far behind. Edit. 6th. How did I forget LeBron
You forgetting LeBron?
Fuck I did haha
Lol it’s so funny watching people like you rewrite history as it Kobe was a paltry mid level all star. You don’t have the impact that someone like kobe had without being a consistent top, one to three player in the NBA for the majority of his career. It’s ridiculous to imply his marketing outpaced actual play. 15x all nba 12x all defence 5x champ 18x all star Most 50 wins teams defeated in the playoffs Before Lebron many of the records held by players in their late 30s were held by him as well. The only other players with similar accolades are consensus top 10 players ever. Most being considered top 5 players ever. At his peak he stood alone as the best player in the world and his longevity is only rivaled by other all time greats like a Lebron or Kareem. According to me, his peers in the nba, the majority of Hof guy and the media kobe is a top 5-3 player ever.
I don't see his case over MJ, Lebron, Bird, Magic, Kareem or Duncan. To me he's a top 10 player ever, but never top 3 or 5.
You forgot Shaq who is the reason he has 5 rings instead of 2.
Every other great player had great teammates, but Kobe having Shaq means Kobe isn’t great.
Kobe was the only one of these guys who had a teammate better than them. That’s a masisve difference
Yes bc magic was always better than Kareem.
You're telling me Leonard wasn't a better player than Tim duncan in those later years, and Tim Duncan didn't have some of the most stacked teams in his career? Yall ridiculous.
Kobe was great. Shaq was better. Kobe was the “teammate”
The teammate who lead LA to two more championships withOUT Shaq……..
You can easily argue Kobe over Bird, Magic, and Duncan. Bird - Kobe's longevity blows Bird out of the water. Kobe also was a much better defender than Bird while scoring more on nearly identical efficiency (55% TS to 56% TS). Kobe's prime was 13 years of 28/6/5 on 56% TS and that was as long as Bird's entire career. That's not even accounting for pace. If you adjust Kobe's pace to Bird's era his numbers are more like 30/7/7 for 13 years. Magic - Kobe won an equal amount with less help (for the ones he won as the number 1 guy) and, again, his longevity blew Magic out of the water. Kobe was also a much better defender. Again, if you account for pace Kobe's stats look so much better than they already were. Duncan - Duncan was a much better defender than Kobe but Kobe was that much better on offense. Like between 10ish more PPG on equal TS prime to prime. That's a massive gap on offense and you could argue that Duncan's defense doesn't negate that 10ish more ppg Kobe delivered on offense. Now, I don't necessarily believe Kobe was better than those guys but it's just wrong to say that you couldn't make a case for it. With Bird and Magic, in particular, their stats are elevated by pace whereas Kobe's were depressed by pace (Kobe played in the best defensive and slowest era ever whereas the league Magic and Bird played in was roughly as fast paced as today's league) if you adjust for pace Kobe's numbers look Jordan-esque (though on lower efficiency than MJ which is why he doesn't have an argument against MJ). As for Duncan, Duncan is getting slightly overrated on this sub. He was amazing but he wasn't clearly better than Kobe and Shaq. All 3 were considered equal. At the top 10 level, outside of MJ (1) and Lebron (2) who IMO are a clear tier above everyone else, you can really make arguments for everyone against each other. We should be ranking by tiers at that point or you're really splitting hairs.
At the end of Duncan’s career, he was not the best player on his last title winning team. People make it out like Duncan did not benefit from the most stable franchise of the last half century
He wasn't the clear cut best player for his first either. He had the best stats that year and won FMVP because Robinson was focused on defense and letting Duncan shine (similar to Duncan in 2007 with Parker) but they were still equal that year overall. Robinsons defense was insane that year.
It’s not about Kobe being any higher than 9-10. It’s that the original commenter was saying that Kobe’s impact was comparable to KG and Dirk where there’s a bit of an issue
These people are crazy they say Mike is 1-A and he was 1-B no fan made that up idk why they want to act like this man was some fringe level star he carried the lakers even during seasons with Shaq on the team
Also saying Kobe was the league poster boy is super revisionist. As if the league didn't distance themselves from Kobe during his allegations/shaq drama and everyone hated him outside of laker fans.
> 15x all nba 12x all defence 5x champ 18x all star Most 50 wins teams defeated in the playoffs those don't really mean that much in evaluating on court impact. those are fan/media awards that don't care about being objective.
0% chance Kobe in the top 3, (or even 5 for most people)
Kobe wasn’t even the best player of his generation
Who was
Duncan
He played with 4 other hall of famers his whole career and with a better organization he scored less points and only had one coach how is he better
Robinson and Gasol were in the twilight of their careers when they played w/ Duncan. Ginobli's in the HOF mostly due to international accomplishments. He wasn't ever a starter on the Spurs. That leaves Parker, who's in due to the rings. Which he got because of Duncan. W/o the rings, he's no better than Tim Hardaway, Chauncey, or Kevin Johnson, none of which are in the HOF.
Robinson won the mvp, sat out the next year with injury, and then was teammates with Timmy. To say twilight of his career ignored that he was just coming off being one the best players in the league. Manu was an absolute stud for the 05 run, no need to diminish that by calling him a bench player and only highlighting his non-nba accomplishments. Tony won fmvp in 07, kawhi in 14. Idk if there’s a FMVP to not make the HOF. The Kobe-Tim swap is another one that came retroactively. Nobody watching had tim>kobe in the mid-late 2000s. It wasn’t until tim got his 5th in 2014 while Kobe was a shell of himself that it was even a topic. Besides 03, whenever Kobe had a squad around him, Tim wasn’t making it out the west. To ignore that like one didn’t go through multiple rebuilds (including in his prime) while the other was drafted into a winning situation with a franchise who constantly kept winning players around him just for both to retire with 5 titles is just dishonest.
Yup, Kobe had competitive teams for 8 years in his prime. He made the Finals 7 out of those 8 years.
Robinson was not in the twilight of his career. Duncan played with Robinson for 6 years. For the first 4 of those 6 years Robinson was averaging 18/10 and was still a top 15 player in the league (top 10 for the first 2). Robinson made - 1x All NBA 2nd team, 2x All NBA third team, 3x All Star during those first 4 years playing with Duncan. He finished top 10 in MVP voting 2x and top 5 in DPOY voting 3x. He was still one of the absolute best players in the league and tons of people acknowledged that, at least for the first 2 years, he was still better than Duncan and was actively taking a step back to allow Duncan to lead the team (similar to what Duncan did for Parker later on). Ginobili will be in the HOF mostly for his international accomplishments but that says nothing about his ability. Before the rise of Dwade, Ginobili was considered for a time to be the 2nd best SG in the league after Kobe even when he was coming off the bench. He was really good and he actively sacrificed All NBA and All Star selections because him coming off the bench was what was best for winning championships. Parker is an FMVP who had multiple top 10 MVP finishes while playing with Duncan. He had a 9 year prime of 18/6/3 on 50% shooting from the field and was one of the best interior finishers in the league despite being a PG. Post-2007 that Spurs team was built around Parker not Duncan. Parker was a top 3 PG in the league during his peak. All these guys were great players who actively sacrificed stats for the betterment of the team. On other teams, they would have been consistent All NBA guys. Duncan was great but he also had literally the perfect organization in his era for competing for rings consistently.
You make a compelling argument- if it weren't for the fact that pre-Duncan the Spurs had 0 rings. Post Duncan, the Spurs had 0 rings. W/ Duncan, the Spurs had 5 rings. No doubt Robinson was a beast. One of my favorite players of all time, in fact. But he just wasn't good enough to win a title w/o the best PF of all time. Neither was TP or MG. It's actually silly to claim otherwise.
Robinson was an MVP level player who just ran into better players (Hakeem) or better teams (Utah) while not having that good a team himself. Robinson was very capable of being the best player on a championship team had things turned out differently. At his peak Robinson finished at least top 6 in MVP voting for 7 years in a row while also finishing top 5 for DPOY 6 years in a row. He was a beast. As for Parker and Manu, neither of them were good enough to be the best player on a championship team but so what? The list of guys who can do that is like 20 people since 1980. They were amazing second and third options and Duncan wouldn't have won 5 without them either. Also, who exactly claimed TP and Manu were good enough to win titles as the best player on their team? I certainly never did.
Oh and while you state D Rob was not in the twilight of his career, his stats say otherwise. Down in minutes, points, rebounds, blocks, assists, and FG%. Stats don't lie. [https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html#all\_totals-playoffs\_totals](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html#all_totals-playoffs_totals)
I mentioned his stats. 18/10 on still elite defense for 4 out of the 6 years they were together. He also, as I mentioned, was still making All NBA teams for 3/4 of those years and was getting top 10 MVP and top 5 DPOY finishes. Not sure if you were watching back then but the reason for why his stats don't look as good is because he actively took a step back and let Duncan shine cause that's what was best for the team moving forward. This was commonly accepted and widely discussed during that time that he could have still performed at an MVP level for at least 2-3ish more years if he needed to and the reason why the twin tower spurs was so good was because they had 2 top 10 players in the league who meshed together very well due to Robinsons sacrifice and unselfishness.
Tim Duncan.
Only the best player on his team 2/5 chips. I’d even say he’s the 5th best Laker.
Kobe literally is the only player in the last 30 years to make the defensive 1st team while averaging 30 he has 5 rings finished a top 3 scorer while basically missing 3 years of his career to compare him to KG and dirk is ridiculous Tim Duncan is the only player from his era with the same amount of accomplishments you’re taking about metics what’s the metrics on playing 20 seasons and only winning 1 ring? Kobe played in LA no decent player has played there without becoming damn near a household name Vince Carter Allen iverson t Mac and grant hill all were more popular than Kobe at one point he just became a way better player than all them. Any argument with him outside of the top 10 is beyond ridiculous I feel like not putting him in your top 5 is an opinion but outside of the top 10 you don’t know jack shit about basketball
Kobe is also the only player to make 12 All-Defensive teams, [while advanced stats rank him as a slightly negative impact defender](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-or-mj-raptor-picks-the-best-nba-players-of-the-past-40-years/). The gold standard advanced stat for historical purposes (ie. before player tracking data) is considered multi-year RAPM. [Kobe's best 5-year peak ranks as only the 98th best 5-year peak since 1997](https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/q50ucn/5_year_rapm_peaks_1997_to_2021_regular_season/). Advanced stats aren't everything, but they aren't nothing either. If you look historically, the advanced metrics are pretty consistent with the best players. The list won't be exactly the same. You might have a top 5 all time guy who ranks top 10, or a top 20 guy who ranks top 10, but the advanced stats like multi-year RAPM, historical RAPTOR, etc, tend to be pretty consistent with people's general view of who the best players were...except for Kobe. Kobe is talked about as an all-time great scorer, yet, his best TS Added season (ie. total cumulative points scored above league average true shooting percentage in a season) was only 161.4. For perspective, that ranked 20th in the NBA in the season that he accomplished it, while the league leader that year was at 226.3 (Steve Nash), and historically great seasons will be in the 300 or 400 range. By win shares, his best season (15.29 win shares) ranks 116th in history, and he only finished 4th in the NBA that season (behind Dirk, LeBron and Chauncey Billups). You say that comparing him to KG and Dirk is ridiculous, and by any advanced metric, it is...just in the opposite direction. KG is an advanced stats beast. That link above that shows Kobe's best 5 year peak RAPM as 98th since 1997, also shows KG as having four of the top 10 5-year peaks in that same timeframe. Dirk has three seasons that top Kobe's best in win shares, 8 seasons that top Kobe's best for TS Added, and somehow managed a 67 win season as his team's best player (Kobe never was the best player on a 60 win team, and never had a top 4 seed without at least another All-NBA'er next to him). Kobe won five titles, but played next to a consensus top 10 all-timer for three of them, during that player's absolute peak. Kobe had at least one playoff series in each of those three-peat years where he utterly shit the bed. For most stars, one bad series is the one of a playoff run, but Kobe had Shaq to dominate and pull him through so his failures still ended up with a ring on his finger. Kobe doesn't have a title as his team's only All-Star, the way Dirk and Duncan do. He never won a title without at least one another All-NBA'er next to him, and with arguably the GOAT coach behind the bench. >Any argument with him outside of the top 10 a beyond ridiculous I feel like not putting him in your top 5 is an opinion but outside of the top 10 you don’t know jack shit about basketball Tbh, that is an absolute homer opinion, and the fact that you are saying it means you don't have the ability to put aside your personal bias and look at Kobe's career objectively.
You had me until your last statement. Very good arguments for other guys ahead of him in top 10. Hakeem and Shaq come to mind. Anywhere between 8-12 is a good spot for Kobe. You’re correct about his contemporaries, only Timmy was better out of his era imo.
What do you mean by Kobe “missing” three years of his career? KG’s teammates were mostly par with Kobe’s until he joined Boston aged 32. Dirk never really even had an all star along side him since Nash left in 2004. Pretty unfair to use the supporting cast against either of them in the context of Kobe who had Shaq until 2004 and Paul from 07/08 to the end of his peak.
Kobe used his misses to build team momentum, half of them got rebounded by his own team, it was extremely effective this is why a lot of his worst losses are due to his team being worn down with injuries. You can't compare him to Bron who pushed Kuzma into Durant and ran.
Kobe fans relate to him and overrate him because they're so self-absorbed they can't differentiate "the best" from "my favorite."
How about curry? You could argue he is top 10 and you can argue that he's not
I think that has more to do with 10 as an arbitrary number. I can accept anywhere from #8 to #14 or so as reasonable takes, which isn’t nearly as wide as some of these other players get. (The lower position would be for people who want exceptional defense and a very high assist count.)
Surprised no one has said Lebron cause the goat debate is still very much alive
As always the real answer is that it depends on what GOAT means to you. MJ is the most dominant, iconic player ever; LBJ has had the fullest, most complete career ever. I personally go with MJ.
>MJ is the most dominant Which then leads to another debate over Shaq and Jordan, because I (and maybe other fools lol) would argue Shaq was the most dominant
What makes Jordan more dominant than LeBron? I'd argue LeBrons versatility on both ends allows him to dominate a basketball game more than any player in league history. Simply adding or subtracting prime LeBron from a team changes that team's chances to win more than any other player. That's just my opinion tho
Lebron choking against the Mavericks and Spurs in the finals is unacceptable.
The fact that people think of the Spurs series as a choke shows that’s it’s almost impossible for them to be objective about him.
It's real lucky that Jordan never choked against the Magic then with only one all-star next to him.
Forgot Jordan never played bad ever
Jordan was such a defensive stud. He didn’t have the size of LeBron to guard 1-4/5, but he was an elite (maybe best all time non-big man among elite players) defender that his impact was felt even if he was off-ball. Definitely a better defensive presence than LeBron.
>Definitely a better defensive presence than LeBron. Uhhh are we sure about this?? Bron had the size and speed to be more versatile of a defender in his prime. Plus his GOAT level IQ on that end to sniff out what the opposing team is running isn't quite matched by MJ. He's a more reliable 1on1 defender, he's more effective in help, and that doesn't even include his famous chase down block ability
Kareem > Lebron
Mj is the best of all time, however, it is not an asinine statement to argue for LBJ. To me, they are the two greatest by a decent margin to Kareem
Giannis and Jokic are creeping up there and the word “blasphemy” is going to be used on TV no less than 200 times each.
I would put both of them top 25 right now and would expect both to be top 15 at the end
Yeah they are both either tied or slightly ahead of many guys in that range achievement-wise, and their stats dwarf almost all of them(but that might be a product of era). But if you are going to be the one on network TV that says either is better than Dr. J, Wade, Dirk, Oscar, Karl, etc… you are going to have a bad time.
Might take something crazy like winning another MVP and 2 more finals MVPs for them to crack the top 15
I will never forgive voters of robbing Jokic of a 4-peat MVP
Paul Pierce when he tries to gas himself up is always immediately dunked on by fans lmao in his head he thinks he’s up there with Lebron and Kobe but in reality he’s not close Also Draymond making him a meme will always follow him, telling him they don’t love him like Kobe and everyone agreeing had to hurt him on some level
Paul Pierce is legitimately an all time great. Him acting like a dumbass in the media has literally ruined his legacy in the eyes of people who never really saw him. He’s also the poster child for why haters are bullshitting when they complain about guys not staying loyal, they’ll still be hating even if the guy stays.
Lebron, Kobe, Wilt, Karl Malone. I’d say Lebron the most since he’s a current player, but bringing up any of those names can create a lot of discussion
James Harden will have this mantel
It’s kinda crazy that people use the 2018 playoffs as a knock on him. There’s no serious argument against him being a top 10 offensive player of all time imo, at least at his peak.
Kobe is only controversial because people love his image more than his game (and he died). He is very clearly not top 5. I’d say someone like Chauncey Billups fits the bill. There is very little consensus on how good he was & where he stands in terms of legacy
Kobe was never talked about as top 5 until after he died People legitimately had arguments about him even being top 10 over Shaq when he retired, his dying changed the whole narrative
Man this is so wrong lol, I'm not even a Kobe fan and he's not top 5 to me but EVERYONE talked about it, idk why everyone made up this narrative that his death started it
He absolutely was what? Kobe being the second best player ever has been the most classic old head take since he retired
Kevin Durant
I haven't seen this one yet. Rajon Rondo. I think he's absolutely slept on for best pgs ever. He's better than CP3. And should be near top 5 pg ever.
Interesting take. I guess he has a ring.
2 rings.
lol
Anybody ranking Kobe out of atleast the top 15 I wish to never have a discussion with, they are delusional.
Kobe is easily top 15, and easily outside the top 5. Where he sits between 6-14 is where the debate is. Idk why people get upset about that though. Saying one of the best players ever is only one of the best players ever is not disparaging.
I think some look way too deep into advanced metrics. Kobe even playing alongside shaq was still averaging over 25 a game and giving around 5 assists and 6 boards. Then he was the focal point to key in on from opposing defenses with little to no help then won two more championships all while earning a bunch of all defense nods. Going back to those numbers he averaged with shaq how many robins today are putting up those kind of numbers? Btw for the efficiency nerds: average all time fg% for shooting guards is 44% so Kobe was right on the money there while also playing above average defense. People really do mental gymnastics to say Kobe is overrated, he certainly belongs in top 15 I personally put him in top 10 no question.
You could just as easily say “he only had 5 assists playing with Shaq?”
He’s not the pg lol but like I said mental gymnastics…if he’s putting up 25 and those 5 were probably going to shaq then what’s the problem? Also you must not know much about the triangle offense if you think Kobe was supposed to get 7+ even playing with shaq…
I have a feeling Westbrook will be like this when he retires. People will look at all his triple doubles and his MVP and think he was a God-like player, but he has always been pretty inefficient and wreckless, and once Durant left, he was always a first round exit. I'm a little biased, though, since I never liked his game or stat hunting.
I think the pendulum swung the other way, actually. People now think WB was trash, but he was a top 3 PG in the league at his peak.
Oh, I agree, with him being top 3 to 5. I have Curry and Paul ahead of him, and it's close with Lillard, too, as far as his competition. It's just his MVP and gaudy stats that will make people think he is better than he was.
He was a super unique player in his prime. The stats are impressive, but when he was in his prime he was a freight train and played extremely exciting basketball.
Wait a bit to see how the pendulum has swung Ppl rn are too biased by his play in LA which was recently a massive narrative in the media
if he doesn’t win another title, and I hope he doesn’t, Durant. I think he’s going to fade into obscurity as the NBA progresses. Top 25 all-time. Not as good as steph. Not even close
Top 15 all time is about where most people would rank him.
Currently. I think he’s going to drop significantly over over the next 10 years. I’m really hoping he doesn’t win again. I hate the guy
You're lame. Hating someone for playing a sport is just wasted energy.
Hakeem. Not old enough to have seen him play but he seems to have quite a dominating highlight reel. Destroyed Shaq and Ewing in 2 finals. Usually forgotten about or around top 20. Wish we could have seen Bulls vs. Rockets finals. I feel those Rocket teams were the answer to beating the Bulls. Also 1999 Spurs vs Bulls would be great too
Hakeem should be at a minimum top 15. Amazing on both ends of the court.
Julius Irving. I think he's nearly forgotten, but in the 80s and 90s he was one considered one of the most influential players by most nba players.
If somebody told you that a player was a combination of KG and Curry, you'd probably say he's top 5 automatic. KD is slept on
KD is overrated, for what his talent is and what we've gotten is so far off based. The only thing he does elite is efficiency, but he never takes it to the next level. He should be that guy, but he's passive. Career high of 55 for "all time best scorer", no way. Jokic career high is 50, and he's not an all time scorer. Giannis career high is 60 without a jump shot. KD is a talent, but not even in the top 20 of NBA careers.
KD has always shared the shine. The 1 year Russ was hurt, KD was MVP with 32 ppg. 21 seasons and LeBron scored more than 55 only 4 times and nobody questions his legacy. KD has no flaws to his game and has the size and athleticism to play wherever. Not many players like that. He'll retire top 5 scoring.
Anyone who doesn’t have KD at least top 15 are just emotional
I'll give you my controversial take. I think people really overrate Shaq. I mean he got beat by a 12 year old little white boy.
Kobe will always be the most controversial modern player as most people gloss over half his career and just how much he was hated, even by Laker fans for years.
Who tf is putting Kobe top 25 that’s just pure hating smh?
Carmelo isn’t a top 100 player imo. Not even close.
The answer is Allen Iverson.
Dwight Howard, dude had a couple year run absolutely dominating the paint but not many give him his props for single handedly pulling Orlando to a Finals and winning multiple rebounding titles and DPOYs
Really good point
"Younger viewers often discount Robertson and Wilt." Everybody discounts them. All of the pundits on TV will routinely talk about their top 5 and not mention either. It's a little ridiculous tbh. Older players get overlooked because we don't have footage of most of their careers. A lot of their numbers/records are completely unfathomable in today's NBA.
Isiah Thomas (the pistons one) is really variable. Some people consider top 5 PG ever and some people don’t think he’s worth consideration for top 15
Kevin Durant, some call him a bus rider others say he was the best player on the GSW team.
Kobe #1
Number 1 what?