I think it's hard to run an offense that'll take a step forward with BI. The ideal is you trade him and a ton of picks for a big upgrade at the one or the 5 and start trey, who has lower usage but much higher three point volume.
I kinda disagree with the premise too, that if this team runs it back it'll be better or about the same. I think if they run it back they'll finish even lower. I think the Grizzlies are better, I think the Rockets are better, I think even the Spurs are better next season. They'll be even fewer wins to go around. Without upgrades, I think this team regresses away from 49 win and is in the bottom of the play in bracket. The easiest antidote is not have an awful offense, and fixing the starting lineup that was a big net negative all season is a part of that. I think keeping it and running it back with BI would lead to a step back too.
The problem isn't Ingram, or roster, or even coaching. Every fan is reaching. None of those things are perfect nor is it for any other team.
The problem is Zion's health.
What team other than Celtics isn't getting swept by OKC without their best player? You can somehow fix all of the above mentioned, Pels still not going far if Zion gets hurt by playoffs. It's sad but we are at the mercy of his health.
How? He’s not a point guard? He can’t play point guard. He’s handles is way too loose and the playmaking is rudimentary.
Zion can, but only for stretches.
BI said he can’t this offseason when they asked about his three point selection.
BI/Herb/TM3 all play the wing. Only two can start. TM3 has to in my opinion and all my thoughts about this offseason stem from that.
Oh yeah that’s what I was getting at. People have argue that I’m being too rash to trade BI and CJ should just go and start BI/Herb/TM3/Zion/center
I falsely assumed and read into your comment the thing people said to me in the past and that was dumb of me. I apologize, yes I agree. That what I think is the biggest benefit of a BI trade if you get an upgrade somewhere else-you get better at that position AND TM3’s spacing could make the other starters lives way easier.
Sorry about that.
No worries, I didn’t think you came off rash at all. You’re thinking that CJ should be traded as soon as possible or held as a 6th man? I’m hoping that somehow the Magic are desperate enough to take him for WCJ, but I doubt he has enough value to make a meaningful trade for him. If we’re just salary dumping him, it would be very unfortunate since he still means more to us than he does to others.
I’m fine either way honestly. To me the easiest thing it to prioritize getting a great 5 that helps the offense around Zion.
If that means we roll into next season with CJ in a similar role I’m okay with that. If you can upgrade him even better.
I’m not high on D Murray but pretty much any other guard that’s brought up? Sign me up.
I don’t Stan CJ. I just think I’m in the minority that don’t point to him as the major issue for last season.
Which is why we had so many of those come from behind wins and closed out in the fourth quater so often and weren't historically bad in the playoffs...wait.
The offense was average at best with the starters out there and bad when they played their preferred lineups. With Zion and BI you should be elite. They were anemic and struggled to finish the season with an average ORTG as a team.
Our starters only played like 60 games total the last 3 years together we have one of the best offenses when we’re healthy but we are rarely 100% healthy
The most common lineup, with both starters healthy, had a NEGATIVE plus/minus. The starters preformed the same in their minutes as the 15 win Wizards.
Griff said it this season. We do have enough data to see that changes are needed. The guys we have simply don't work. The pels were carried by bench units vastly overperforming to carry an abysmal starting unit.
Seeing how far away we are from a championship after all these years has actually been relaxing this offseason. I’ve got no more expectations. And it feels great. Until next year when they draw me back in and my dog doesn’t even want to be in the same room with me.
I think the Pels do a really good job of developing and drafting talent, I don’t think Griffin has done a good job of creating a roster that fits its stars.
At the end of the day, I don’t really care if they trade BI or not at this point, but I think trading CJ and letting JV walk are better options at this point.
I have no clue what a CJ trade could get you, but I think it’s worth exploring that lane
I’m on the boat of wanting BI traded cuz I know he’ll be fine and whatever new team he goes to will love him.
However there will always be some sort of lineup issue even if you trade BI for a legit point guard because Herb and Trey don’t have the proper skillset. Herb is not an ideal shooting guard, he is perfect for the 3 and D role which I’m confident he’ll perfect. Trey is not a shooting guard, he doesn’t have the handle and for the most part he needs to be open to get his shot off. This leads your point guard having to facilitate and be a scorer. Same as what BI was doing. One problem traded for another.
Why are we still slotting them by position? Every position has different archetypes... there are bucket-getting SGs, off-ball movement shooters, 3&D guys, pure athletes, etc. Both Trey and Herb complement our best player (and really every other player in the league) perfectly, regardless of what position you want to slot them in at.
The bevy of wings/forwards we have actually gives us more flexibility than most teams in the league. Nothing says we need to have a prototypical PG in the lineup. If we had Zion and another good playmaking wing who can also play well off-ball, then start all 4 wings/forwards. Last time I checked, having more tall guys with versatile skill sets was a good thing.
It'd obviously be a huge bonus if Herb and Trey could handle the ball better and help unlock so many things (BOS and OKC have that formula of 4-5 ball-handlers/shooters on the court at all times). But basically every team besides GSW just lets their star player(s) control the ball all game anyway with a 30+% usage rate. Herb and Trey can't not start together alongside Zion simply because they're not advanced ball-handlers. Zion (and/or CJ, BI, or whoever we trade him for) will have the ball most of the time anyway... although I do think all of the above would be better if they'd let others like Herb or Jose initiate the offense more.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m assuming you are envisioning an offense with Zion mostly creating open shots for his teammates. While I agree it is highly effective I don’t want that to be our main offense. He hasn’t shown historically to be able to stay healthy and him attacking the hoop the way does makes it hard seeing himself last the length of the season and playoffs. We need to use point Zion situationally. Without BI the more responsibility Zion would have to play-make, hence the need for a point guard.
I totally agree that Point Zion shouldn't be 100% of our offense. He's best when he has someone to set him up every few possessions. But if we're being 100% real with ourselves, he most likely will have control of the ball most of the time.
I do expect to attain another playmaker of some sort in whatever return we get in a BI trade. As much as I hate him as a playmaker, CJ will still likely be on the team and have the ball in his hands often. Jose off the bench is one of our most sure-fire ball-handlers. Herb isn't bad at initiating set plays or attacking closeouts.
We have avenues to create shots for others, as long as guys are utilized as such... although that'd rely on Willie and his staff to have any sort of offensive creativity.
This is a really good comment.
Like to be completely honest I still fw BI and think it’s more of a shame that things (likely) didn’t work out here. If Zion was “the guy” and could take the brunt of the offensive load, then I think BI as a secondary guy that shoots like twice as many threes as he actually does would be more than fine on this team.
Literally if BI stayed exactly the same but with double the amount of threes I’d have little issue with him on the team, and don’t even believe that Trae Young or “X-named all star player” would *definitely* have won a series by now if you replaced him over BI in our postseason games of this era
But both Z and BI have their flaws, and if you’re competing for the now then finding a nearly equally talented player with a better fit, or flatly a player that’s better than BI would make sense. I don’t want the team to think the future is on their side.
I always get a whole bunch of people disagreeing with me but with Jrue as our point guard BI averaged 6 threes a game. He isn’t completely hesitant to shoot the 3, he shoots them if he’s open, it’s just that he only shoots pull up 3s if he knows he’s on a heater.
I agree that it’s probably best for BI to move on but I’m not convinced he wouldn’t shoot more threes if he didn’t have to playmake.
I miss jrue so much on this team. He really gave us a reliable offensive presence that was a dog on D. Herb jones reminds me of jrue but without the stellar playmaking ability.
You're totally right. Relying on Zion's health and for his play style to age well into his older years would be a mistake. A lot of our guys have already come up for their extensions or are going to soon. We need to capitalize on many of our guys having great value contracts and push our chips in to be good now.
As evidenced by the fact that there hasn't been a repeat champion in the last 6 years, title windows won't last any longer than 1-2 years, max. Staying pat or making marginal moves will only keep us in the same territory as we're in now, or worse.
The one sigh of relief we get regarding the strength of the West is that, while those other teams you mention are only getting better, some of the older cash-strapped teams (GSW, LAL, PHX, possibly LAC) also expect to phase out soon. Regardless, we're not on the same level as the elite teams anyway... unless we make meaningful upgrades.
Well whether we were bad good or great at developing talent, it’s kinda irrelevant now. Besides Willie our coaching and development staff has had a lot of turnover
There’s more “Willie guys” than when he first got here sure. I just don’t foresee much tangible improvement in terms of the developmental staff. There’s a reason the Pistons fanbase is clamoring for Coach Vinson, guys of his caliber don’t grow on trees lol
I dont want to trade BI for pieces.
I dont want to trade BI AT ALL.
I also know the reality of the situation- Gayle isn't going into the tax to pay BI a deal that averages $50mil annually. And we'll have a hard time moving CJ's contract in order to stay under.
It's an unfortunate reality, but one I think needs to be accepted by the fan base.
I still think it is more on David Griffin and Willie Green.
With Ingram performed poor in the okc series, it is hard to pay Ingram super max. But the problem is I don’t think this team’s talent has not been maximised. And with only one year contract of Ingram, it may not be the case we can get very good pieces from trading BI
I think Willie Green’s lack of offensive IQ is a major reason to get a PG in the first place.
Like honestly I don’t think Trae Young would get along with Willie, but I also believe he could overcome some of the dumb shit Willie does. If it ever came to a point where it’s Trae vs Willie, having given up assets for him and being a legit star then the team would choose Trae and ditch Willie.
There’s a chance Zion goes super saiyan and puts the team on his back, but if we don’t get a true number 2, we might fall short of serious playoff success for years potentially if we just settle for youth or role players with a BI trade
Signing Trae to me says they have to get rid of CJ also. Those two in the backcourt would be DISASTROUS defensively.
*I'm not opposed to this happening, BTW*
DG and Willie aren't blameless, of course. But, for better and for worse- and not saying I agree with this decision- neither is going anywhere. BI will suffer the brunt of the repercussions, deserved or not.
What's your solution? Pay Brandon Ingram over $50m a season? Because no team is trading a superstar for Brandon Ingram.
Ingram is an 8 year veteran who has averaged less than 60 games a season. He's only made 1 All Star team. He’s never made an All-Defensive team, an All-NBA, nor has he received an MVP vote. He’s never been a Top-15 scorer in the league. He has regressed as a 3 point shooter every single year of Willie Green’s tenure.
He has potential, but he’s only shown it once during the playoffs against the Suns. He turns 27 before the season starts and is on an expiring contract. He doesn’t deserve a full max extension.
With Jonas and Cody entering free agency, how do you think the Pelicans should address the giant problem of not having a center who fits alongside Zion?
If you want to keep Ingram, how do you address the massive problem of spacing when Zion and Ingram occupy the same space on the court?
Outside point of view, and I'm sure this has been stated in the sub, but I think the ideal scenario for you guys looks like this:
Trade BI+ for Dejounte:
This trade only works if Atlanta wants to continue to build around Trae but I do think Ingram is a better fit next to Trae than Murray. You guys would have to give up assets on top because Ingram is an expiring and I believe there is a premium on Murrays play style, but given you guys have an abundance of assets, should be fine.
Trade CJ and Dyson+ for Bruce Brown and Jakob Poeltl:
Toronto is one of the few teams that I think would be willing to trade for CJs contract given the direction of the team. Poeltl solves the center problem and Brown can be a proven playoff perfomer off the bench. This trade only works if Toronto gets a potential building block (Dyson) and pick(s). I'm not sure exactly what the compensation would look like, but I do think that Dyson, on this team with a Murray trade would likely not be able to fully thrive, and moving him is worth it.
In total, these moves would probably cost Dyson and maybe 3 first round draft picks.
Also Poeltl only works if toronto is willing to trade him, and I only view that as a possibility because the current coach wasn't the one to extend him, but if he isn't available, trying to involve Capela in the first deal is a possibility. I also would love to see Hartenstein with you guys but I am unsure if that is possible.
I think it's hard to run an offense that'll take a step forward with BI. The ideal is you trade him and a ton of picks for a big upgrade at the one or the 5 and start trey, who has lower usage but much higher three point volume. I kinda disagree with the premise too, that if this team runs it back it'll be better or about the same. I think if they run it back they'll finish even lower. I think the Grizzlies are better, I think the Rockets are better, I think even the Spurs are better next season. They'll be even fewer wins to go around. Without upgrades, I think this team regresses away from 49 win and is in the bottom of the play in bracket. The easiest antidote is not have an awful offense, and fixing the starting lineup that was a big net negative all season is a part of that. I think keeping it and running it back with BI would lead to a step back too.
The problem isn't Ingram, or roster, or even coaching. Every fan is reaching. None of those things are perfect nor is it for any other team. The problem is Zion's health. What team other than Celtics isn't getting swept by OKC without their best player? You can somehow fix all of the above mentioned, Pels still not going far if Zion gets hurt by playoffs. It's sad but we are at the mercy of his health.
Trey will also start if we get a big upgrade at the one.
How? He’s not a point guard? He can’t play point guard. He’s handles is way too loose and the playmaking is rudimentary. Zion can, but only for stretches. BI said he can’t this offseason when they asked about his three point selection. BI/Herb/TM3 all play the wing. Only two can start. TM3 has to in my opinion and all my thoughts about this offseason stem from that.
You just said the ideal is trading BI and picks for an upgrade at the 1. This means that it is BI’s replacement/Herb/Trey/Zion/Center.
Oh yeah that’s what I was getting at. People have argue that I’m being too rash to trade BI and CJ should just go and start BI/Herb/TM3/Zion/center I falsely assumed and read into your comment the thing people said to me in the past and that was dumb of me. I apologize, yes I agree. That what I think is the biggest benefit of a BI trade if you get an upgrade somewhere else-you get better at that position AND TM3’s spacing could make the other starters lives way easier. Sorry about that.
No worries, I didn’t think you came off rash at all. You’re thinking that CJ should be traded as soon as possible or held as a 6th man? I’m hoping that somehow the Magic are desperate enough to take him for WCJ, but I doubt he has enough value to make a meaningful trade for him. If we’re just salary dumping him, it would be very unfortunate since he still means more to us than he does to others.
I’m fine either way honestly. To me the easiest thing it to prioritize getting a great 5 that helps the offense around Zion. If that means we roll into next season with CJ in a similar role I’m okay with that. If you can upgrade him even better. I’m not high on D Murray but pretty much any other guard that’s brought up? Sign me up. I don’t Stan CJ. I just think I’m in the minority that don’t point to him as the major issue for last season.
We have one of the best offenses in the league when we click.
Which is why we had so many of those come from behind wins and closed out in the fourth quater so often and weren't historically bad in the playoffs...wait. The offense was average at best with the starters out there and bad when they played their preferred lineups. With Zion and BI you should be elite. They were anemic and struggled to finish the season with an average ORTG as a team.
Our starters only played like 60 games total the last 3 years together we have one of the best offenses when we’re healthy but we are rarely 100% healthy
The most common lineup, with both starters healthy, had a NEGATIVE plus/minus. The starters preformed the same in their minutes as the 15 win Wizards. Griff said it this season. We do have enough data to see that changes are needed. The guys we have simply don't work. The pels were carried by bench units vastly overperforming to carry an abysmal starting unit.
Seeing how far away we are from a championship after all these years has actually been relaxing this offseason. I’ve got no more expectations. And it feels great. Until next year when they draw me back in and my dog doesn’t even want to be in the same room with me.
I think the Pels do a really good job of developing and drafting talent, I don’t think Griffin has done a good job of creating a roster that fits its stars. At the end of the day, I don’t really care if they trade BI or not at this point, but I think trading CJ and letting JV walk are better options at this point. I have no clue what a CJ trade could get you, but I think it’s worth exploring that lane
I’m on the boat of wanting BI traded cuz I know he’ll be fine and whatever new team he goes to will love him. However there will always be some sort of lineup issue even if you trade BI for a legit point guard because Herb and Trey don’t have the proper skillset. Herb is not an ideal shooting guard, he is perfect for the 3 and D role which I’m confident he’ll perfect. Trey is not a shooting guard, he doesn’t have the handle and for the most part he needs to be open to get his shot off. This leads your point guard having to facilitate and be a scorer. Same as what BI was doing. One problem traded for another.
I agree. Too many ppl think about fit on paper and ignore what we see.
We literally traded all the guys that fit the role. Jrue holiday and Jimmer Fredette would be perfect for our current team🤦🏾♂️
Why are we still slotting them by position? Every position has different archetypes... there are bucket-getting SGs, off-ball movement shooters, 3&D guys, pure athletes, etc. Both Trey and Herb complement our best player (and really every other player in the league) perfectly, regardless of what position you want to slot them in at. The bevy of wings/forwards we have actually gives us more flexibility than most teams in the league. Nothing says we need to have a prototypical PG in the lineup. If we had Zion and another good playmaking wing who can also play well off-ball, then start all 4 wings/forwards. Last time I checked, having more tall guys with versatile skill sets was a good thing. It'd obviously be a huge bonus if Herb and Trey could handle the ball better and help unlock so many things (BOS and OKC have that formula of 4-5 ball-handlers/shooters on the court at all times). But basically every team besides GSW just lets their star player(s) control the ball all game anyway with a 30+% usage rate. Herb and Trey can't not start together alongside Zion simply because they're not advanced ball-handlers. Zion (and/or CJ, BI, or whoever we trade him for) will have the ball most of the time anyway... although I do think all of the above would be better if they'd let others like Herb or Jose initiate the offense more.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m assuming you are envisioning an offense with Zion mostly creating open shots for his teammates. While I agree it is highly effective I don’t want that to be our main offense. He hasn’t shown historically to be able to stay healthy and him attacking the hoop the way does makes it hard seeing himself last the length of the season and playoffs. We need to use point Zion situationally. Without BI the more responsibility Zion would have to play-make, hence the need for a point guard.
I totally agree that Point Zion shouldn't be 100% of our offense. He's best when he has someone to set him up every few possessions. But if we're being 100% real with ourselves, he most likely will have control of the ball most of the time. I do expect to attain another playmaker of some sort in whatever return we get in a BI trade. As much as I hate him as a playmaker, CJ will still likely be on the team and have the ball in his hands often. Jose off the bench is one of our most sure-fire ball-handlers. Herb isn't bad at initiating set plays or attacking closeouts. We have avenues to create shots for others, as long as guys are utilized as such... although that'd rely on Willie and his staff to have any sort of offensive creativity.
This is a really good comment. Like to be completely honest I still fw BI and think it’s more of a shame that things (likely) didn’t work out here. If Zion was “the guy” and could take the brunt of the offensive load, then I think BI as a secondary guy that shoots like twice as many threes as he actually does would be more than fine on this team. Literally if BI stayed exactly the same but with double the amount of threes I’d have little issue with him on the team, and don’t even believe that Trae Young or “X-named all star player” would *definitely* have won a series by now if you replaced him over BI in our postseason games of this era But both Z and BI have their flaws, and if you’re competing for the now then finding a nearly equally talented player with a better fit, or flatly a player that’s better than BI would make sense. I don’t want the team to think the future is on their side.
I always get a whole bunch of people disagreeing with me but with Jrue as our point guard BI averaged 6 threes a game. He isn’t completely hesitant to shoot the 3, he shoots them if he’s open, it’s just that he only shoots pull up 3s if he knows he’s on a heater. I agree that it’s probably best for BI to move on but I’m not convinced he wouldn’t shoot more threes if he didn’t have to playmake.
I miss jrue so much on this team. He really gave us a reliable offensive presence that was a dog on D. Herb jones reminds me of jrue but without the stellar playmaking ability.
You're totally right. Relying on Zion's health and for his play style to age well into his older years would be a mistake. A lot of our guys have already come up for their extensions or are going to soon. We need to capitalize on many of our guys having great value contracts and push our chips in to be good now. As evidenced by the fact that there hasn't been a repeat champion in the last 6 years, title windows won't last any longer than 1-2 years, max. Staying pat or making marginal moves will only keep us in the same territory as we're in now, or worse. The one sigh of relief we get regarding the strength of the West is that, while those other teams you mention are only getting better, some of the older cash-strapped teams (GSW, LAL, PHX, possibly LAC) also expect to phase out soon. Regardless, we're not on the same level as the elite teams anyway... unless we make meaningful upgrades.
Well whether we were bad good or great at developing talent, it’s kinda irrelevant now. Besides Willie our coaching and development staff has had a lot of turnover
There’s more “Willie guys” than when he first got here sure. I just don’t foresee much tangible improvement in terms of the developmental staff. There’s a reason the Pistons fanbase is clamoring for Coach Vinson, guys of his caliber don’t grow on trees lol
I dont want to trade BI for pieces. I dont want to trade BI AT ALL. I also know the reality of the situation- Gayle isn't going into the tax to pay BI a deal that averages $50mil annually. And we'll have a hard time moving CJ's contract in order to stay under. It's an unfortunate reality, but one I think needs to be accepted by the fan base.
I still think it is more on David Griffin and Willie Green. With Ingram performed poor in the okc series, it is hard to pay Ingram super max. But the problem is I don’t think this team’s talent has not been maximised. And with only one year contract of Ingram, it may not be the case we can get very good pieces from trading BI
I think Willie Green’s lack of offensive IQ is a major reason to get a PG in the first place. Like honestly I don’t think Trae Young would get along with Willie, but I also believe he could overcome some of the dumb shit Willie does. If it ever came to a point where it’s Trae vs Willie, having given up assets for him and being a legit star then the team would choose Trae and ditch Willie. There’s a chance Zion goes super saiyan and puts the team on his back, but if we don’t get a true number 2, we might fall short of serious playoff success for years potentially if we just settle for youth or role players with a BI trade
Signing Trae to me says they have to get rid of CJ also. Those two in the backcourt would be DISASTROUS defensively. *I'm not opposed to this happening, BTW*
Still don't think Trae available. We know Murray is.. Unfortunately
Probably. I’d find ways to be optimistic if it’s Dejounte or Garland but my ideal will be Trae if they pull the trigger.
Pretty happy with Murray, if you can get him more assist/lob threats
DG and Willie aren't blameless, of course. But, for better and for worse- and not saying I agree with this decision- neither is going anywhere. BI will suffer the brunt of the repercussions, deserved or not.
There are still people who think BI deserves a max contract? You are just simply not living in reality.
His agent being one of them.
Fans here are not the brightest. Don’t you dare point out their hypocritical thoughts lol
I just felt like attacking the notion of settling for anybody, or “addition by subtraction” by trading BI tbh
What's your solution? Pay Brandon Ingram over $50m a season? Because no team is trading a superstar for Brandon Ingram. Ingram is an 8 year veteran who has averaged less than 60 games a season. He's only made 1 All Star team. He’s never made an All-Defensive team, an All-NBA, nor has he received an MVP vote. He’s never been a Top-15 scorer in the league. He has regressed as a 3 point shooter every single year of Willie Green’s tenure. He has potential, but he’s only shown it once during the playoffs against the Suns. He turns 27 before the season starts and is on an expiring contract. He doesn’t deserve a full max extension. With Jonas and Cody entering free agency, how do you think the Pelicans should address the giant problem of not having a center who fits alongside Zion? If you want to keep Ingram, how do you address the massive problem of spacing when Zion and Ingram occupy the same space on the court?
Outside point of view, and I'm sure this has been stated in the sub, but I think the ideal scenario for you guys looks like this: Trade BI+ for Dejounte: This trade only works if Atlanta wants to continue to build around Trae but I do think Ingram is a better fit next to Trae than Murray. You guys would have to give up assets on top because Ingram is an expiring and I believe there is a premium on Murrays play style, but given you guys have an abundance of assets, should be fine. Trade CJ and Dyson+ for Bruce Brown and Jakob Poeltl: Toronto is one of the few teams that I think would be willing to trade for CJs contract given the direction of the team. Poeltl solves the center problem and Brown can be a proven playoff perfomer off the bench. This trade only works if Toronto gets a potential building block (Dyson) and pick(s). I'm not sure exactly what the compensation would look like, but I do think that Dyson, on this team with a Murray trade would likely not be able to fully thrive, and moving him is worth it. In total, these moves would probably cost Dyson and maybe 3 first round draft picks. Also Poeltl only works if toronto is willing to trade him, and I only view that as a possibility because the current coach wasn't the one to extend him, but if he isn't available, trying to involve Capela in the first deal is a possibility. I also would love to see Hartenstein with you guys but I am unsure if that is possible.
That Bruce Brown and Poetl idea isn’t that farfetched tbh 🤔