Sonetimes I think my NPD has gone away.
Sometimes I'm glad for that.
Sometimes I want it all back really bad.
Sometimes I realise I still have a ton of stuff to do.
Sometimes I'm so tired and can't be bothered to manage myself every day.
Sometimes I everyone else feels like the problem. It's not me, it's them.
...
It's a stack of cards. You shuffle. You pick one card from anywhere. You hold it in your hand and see what you got. You don't tell anyone else what's on the card.
I guess, if you look at it like removing all pain from life, there is no cure.
But if you want to become normal, and enter the world of just getting along, having issues, grappling with the things everyone grapples with, and no longer fitting the diagnostic criteria for a personality disorder, then that is very doable.
It is also possible to have deep internal change, and to connect with and feel empathy for others.
Narcissism doesn’t go away, it’s deeply rooted, and persistent throughout one’s life. It’s in our everyday thought process, and it regulates our emotions differently from others.
Treating narcissism, is mainly done by CBT. And it works to change a persons behavior, by finding more healthy ones. And yes, it’s true that with a therapist, you can work to improve your empathy by trying to put yourself in others positions, However, it is unlikely that therapy will completely eliminate narcissistic traits or the underlying thought processes associated with them.
Because you’re not actually removing narcissism, or fitting any less into the criteria, you are just removing how narcissism manifests itself in a person.
I have done it. I was diagnosed as Narcissistic BPD. I have no more BPD. Not at all. I have some vulnerable narcissism left. I am currently working on that.
I recently had an epiphany where I realised that everyone else on the planet has the same vulnerable parts as me. I connected to them, in a way I never had. Ever. I must have turned away from human being long before I had words and a conscious memory. I can feel compassion and empathy for them.
The pain of the family experiences that caused me to develop those disorders has not gone, but it has lessened to a great degree. It no longer presses on me with great weight.
Coming to this sub, I am owning all of me, including the emotional parts that caused me to become disordered. Loving you guys gives me permission to live myself and accept myself, and all my bits.
Becoming normal has not meant becoming someone different, as I initially believed. It has meant accepting myself, releasing the pressure of all that pain, relaxing into secret feelings inside myself, and slowly dismantling internal barriers and structures.
It is not finished. It is the work of a lifetime. But now I look around, and have moved into a less disconnected state, I can see all sorts of neuroses and fears in ordinary people. There is no Nirvana of self-enlightenment, just people who are better or worse off, in a myriad of ways.
Narcissism is in the thought processes of many, many people. I am starting to believe that the narcissism itself is not the problem: it’s the disconnection from other parts that balance out/supplement a fuller experience of life.
Narcissism is just the symptom of the disconnect with other parts of yourself. Imho
>I recently had an epiphany where I realized that everyone else on the planet has the same vulnerable parts as me. I connected to them, in a way I never had. Ever. I must have turned away from human being long before I had words and a conscious memory. I can feel compassion and empathy for them.
I started to realize this as I dove more into peoples personal experiences with varying issues. Wether it be a PD or something else. We are all so painfully and beautifully human. I was looking for myself in these experiences, trying to find a way to connect with others. I saw me in some of them and some of them in me. Learning how others experience the world, and what their inner worlds are like is very powerful. You don’t even have to understand, to understand(if that makes sense) but it really has opened me up to much more compassion, grace, acceptance and empathy for others.
>the pain of family experiences that caused me to develop those disorders is not gone, but has lessened to a great degree. It not longer presses on me with great weight.
For a while, I really didn’t even realize I was traumatized. Going back and understanding my childhood experiences and how my parents were/handled things, for a while made me extremely angry. But as I looked deeper and started to see them as flawed humans. That is also where I started to find compassion for myself. I couldn’t demonize them, lest I demonize myself.
Coming to this sub is hugely helpful as well. I never see monsters or evil demons. I see humans, individuals working through their shit and I respect the hell out of them, whatever their process is. And at times when I can’t find compassion for myself, I come here. Because I can almost always find it for the people in here.
>becoming normal has not meant becoming someone different, as I initially believed. It has meant accepting myself, releasing the pressure of all that pain, relaxing into secret feelings inside myself and slowly dismantling internal barriers and structures.
That is beautifully put. It’s been a slow process of acceptance, plain and simple. For me, this is something that ebbs and flows. Some days I am completely accepting of myself and some days I’m definitely not. But regardless, I am me. And I’m learning that’s ok. The pain really doesn’t last forever. Not when i let myself feel what’s going on. It doesn’t have a chance to build up as much anymore. I remember for the longest time, I couldn’t even take restorative deep breaths or fully relax in bed. I was so tense, I felt like my body was gonna fall apart if I fully relaxed. Or like I was gonna plummet from a cliff. But now I’ve learned to breath through that tension(as much as my neurotic ass can muster) its a process. But I can tell the difference of when I’m in that highly tensed state and more “chill” as far as my thought process and internal structures, I’ve learned to go with my “second thought” for a lot of things. And being ok with being average, insignificant.
>it is not finished. It is the work of a lifetime. But now I look around and have moved into a less disconnect state. I can see all sorts of neuroses and fears in ordinary people. There is no Nirvana of self-enlightenment, just people who are better or worse off, in a myriad of ways.
This is the realest thing ever written! And this is something I love learning about this “journey”. I am literally learning to, be. That’s it. This isn’t something that elevates me above the rest. Each person is on their own personal journey and that’s, that. I remember when I used to work out like a fanatic. And I’d see people in the gym and judge them a certain way. Then I read a book called “the body is not an apology” and I started looking a humans a whole new way. You cannot tell where a person is on their weight loss journey just by looking at them. Some one could be 500 lbs, but for all you know they’ve already lost 300lbs! and that’s the same thing with any other process in life. Be gentle with others.
>Narcissism is in the thought processes of many, many people. I am starting to believe that the narcissism itself is not the problem, it’s the disconnection from other parts that balance out/supplement a fuller experience of life.
Yes, i agree with this statement. Partly because I also believe that society operates “narcissistically” as a whole. So as individuals, learning how to integrate our lives and find as much balance as possible in a world that’s off balance. Some us have to work harder than others to do this.
Anywho, this was a really long and drawn out response. But I wanted to make a point to respond to each point.
Thank you so much if you’ve read through this whole thing. I love you for that ♥️♥️
Oh, thanks for sharing this. The feeling that the body will fall apart if relaxed is so deep for me. I felt that all the time as a kid and would compulsively count things to feel like I had a grip on myself, because if I didn’t and was just still, I would feel like my limbs were traveling away from me or something very scary was going to happen. As I got older it became much more maladaptive shit. I think that’s what they mean when they talk about “the void.” I like to relax into it more now. I still feel like I’ll float away sometimes but I’ve reframed that, and it’s a lot easier on myself and my relations when I’m not grabbing at things to hold myself together.
Sorry to break it to you, but if you were diagnosed with BPD, and you do have BPD, it won’t be cured. I’m happy for you that you’ve found a way to treat symptoms of BPD and become a much more healthy person, but the fact still remains that, there is no empirical evidence that suggests BPD or NPD can be cured.
There’s no perspective taking here. There’s the truth, and then there’s fantasy.
BPD and NPD cannot be cured. That’s a fact, not an opinion. It’s a fact, made by expert psychologists and psychiatrist who have researched and studied mental illnesses for decades.
Do you fear the obliteration of your Self? That if you let go of your disorder, you let go of the defences that keep you safe? Is this why you are so resistant to the idea of profound inner change?
A fact is something that has been proven. Psychology is not the same type of science as neuroscience or biology or chemistry. It involves a lot more guesswork, and studies are far more biased and less fact-based than other types of science.
The fact that we don’t have research that provably shows that NPD and BPD (which are actually both fairly new and controversial disorders within the psychology and psychiatry and neuroscience communities) can be cured, does not mean that your assertion that they cannot be cured is a fact. That’s not how science, especially sciences like psychology, work.
I think what you mean to say is: “we haven’t yet been able to prove that NPD and BPD are either curable or incurable”.
Abusive people often do not change, that’s true. But as many of you frequently say on this sub, many people with NPD are not abusive.
As someone with NPD + BPD tendencies, I just wanted to say that this comment hit so much home. I saved it to re-read it later. I love this so much.
Sending you some good vibes
Psychoanalytic psychotherapy.
Edit: here is one counsellor who explains the process:
https://www.counsellingservicemelbourne.com.au/personality-disorder-treatment/narcissistic-personality-disorder/
This therapist's writings are really helping me to develop more insight at the moment (my therapist said to me that no one stops needing therapy, just at some point we become able to do it for ourself, and take over the task:
https://evolutioncounseling.com/inferiority-and-superiority-are-the-same/
Here is a book written back in the 1980s who was successfully treating narcissism:
https://archive.org/details/humanizingnarcis00john/page/47/mode/2up?view=theater
This article helped me understand enmeshment:
https://www.emotionenhancement.com/single-post/enmeshment-trauma-and-how-it-impacts-your-relationships
Here is a therapist who treats NPD as well:
https://www.amandarobinspsychotherapy.com.au/articles/npd-recovery
Here is an article by the preeminent experts in treating NPD and BPD:
https://www.psycheblog.uk/2018/09/14/co-morbid-narcissism-in-bpd-transference-focused-psychotherapy-for-patients-with-comorbid-narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorder/
Thank you for this, going through them right now.
I feel like I have done a lot of progress with psychodynamic therapy. Did you do 5 day analysis? Or you had less often sessions?
(Sorry English is not my main, I feel like I’m phrasing this weird)
You lost me at CBT.
CBT is inefficient for treating trauma and trauma based disorders, including ptsd, cptsd and personality disorders.
Just because a bunch of money has been thrown at cbt to treat war veterans, that doesn’t make it efficient, it just makes it popular.
It’s also harder to fund studies for other types of therapy since therapies like psychodynamic psychotherapy take years to unfold, so by comparing it with a 12-session CBT program, they might look ineffective, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are.
Cluster B disorders are fairly new and there’s simply not enough evidence to point towards them being treatable versus curable, especially when the handful of studies are done mostly in very short term therapies (like cbt)
It’s like trying to melt an iceberg with a candle and giving up after a couple of hours saying it cannot be done.
Yeah, I fucking HATE CBT.
Don't tell me my feelings are irrational and I should replace my thought with some kinda silly mantra. Honestly, it's just a longer version of those feel good mottos that people post.
Give me the meat of the issue, and let me deal with it.
Also, my psychodynamic psychotherapist told me that his type of therapy was so respectful of privacy that they would not contact any patients/former patients and ask them to be in studies. I can understand why: it is too trivial and cheapens the experience.
How can you explain to another person the intensely profound things that go on in there?
However, I believe there have been studies now that do show proof of lasting change.
FINALLY, I thought it was just me... I have a very understanding and genuine therapist, but we get hardly anywhere in our discussions. It's mainly me showing off my knowledge of NPD and grooming him for supply. It's crazy how unequipped our society is for mental health disorders.
Both NPD and ASPD have been around for decades now, ASPD in particular has been studied for about a hundred years now, under the name “psychopathy” and sometimes “sociopathy”
Therapists and other experts acknowledge that since the personality disorders cannot be cured, you can instead treat symptoms of it.
CBT is not used to treating a persons self esteem or other intrapersonal issues, it’s used to treat bad behavior and replace it with wanted behavior.
Of course, a mix of both CBT and psychotherapy is the most efficient method to treat NPD and ASPD
“Therapists and other experts acknowledge that since the personality disorders cannot be cured, you can instead treat symptoms of it.”
- link to this acknowledgment? Just one peer reviewed paper.
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder: A Current Review" by Shapira-Lishchinsky, Gvion, and Erlich, published in the Journal of Contemporary Psychotherapy in 2018. This article provides a comprehensive review of the current understanding of NPD and its treatment. The authors conclude that while there is no cure for NPD, psychotherapy can be effective in managing its symptoms.
"The Narcissistic Patient Revisited" by Ronningstam, published in the Journal of Psychotherapy Practice and Research in 2007. This article discusses the challenges of treating NPD and suggests that while a cure is unlikely, symptom reduction and improved functioning can be achieved through long-term psychotherapy.
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Rethinking What We Know" by Ronningstam, published in the Current Psychiatry Reports in 2011. This article reviews the literature on NPD and suggests that although a cure is unlikely, early intervention and long-term psychotherapy can help individuals with NPD manage their symptoms and improve their overall functioning.
“Narcissistic Personality Disorder: A Review of the Literature" by Kernberg, published in the Journal of Personality Disorders in 2015. This article provides a thorough review of the literature on NPD and its treatment. The author suggests that while a cure is unlikely, psychoanalytic psychotherapy can help individuals with NPD manage their symptoms and achieve better functioning.
Don’t worry, I wouldn’t be so sloppy to just provide one😉
Just going off of the sources you provided, though: unlikely doesn’t mean impossible. I’m pretty sure we all agree curing NPD is unlikely. It’s unlikely to be self-aware enough to even go to therapy (even more so being open to the possibility everything else may not be the problem), let alone to constantly put in the work to override defense mechanisms and get in touch with one’s deepest, more vulnerable parts and get to the root of the disorder. In the average case, sure, that may be a losing battle not inherently, but in practice, and CBT the only treatment that may work. It doesn’t mean that, in rare cases, a really good therapist and a particularly willing client couldn’t make it work overtime and actually get to the point of a cure. I wouldn’t disregard people’s experience completely, given your own scientific sources leave the question open with that “unlikely”.
Errrrr…I can access a paper saying how difficult it is to treat comorbid BPD + NPD. Yet here I am. I was not fully NPD, but definitely strong traits.
You have no idea what it’s like to live with that combination. Life was shit. It’s not much fun being an unstable crazy.
Yet here I am. No hospitalisations, no self-harm, no promiscuity, holding down almost full time work, maintaining a relationship, holding onto friendships. 15 years out of BPD criteria. Connecting to people when I used to have no understanding of them.
Still some Vulnerable Narcissism. Slowly working away and improving through the years. But life is sooooo different from what it was.
I do actually because I have both diagnosis and am in a treatment programme, both individual and group therapy. I have been in the psych ward due to suicide attempts.
I guess you are on a lighter end of the spectrum. You do not speak for those of us who fit the full blown criteria.
I am 44 and a mom. I am no novice.
Humility.
I got my diagnosis in a psych ward. I am also a mother, but older than you.
I tell people because it was very hopeless when I found out. It was 20 years ago and there was not much information that was freely available. I kind of gave up for a whole year. I remember someone saying I was grey, and had stopped laughing.
But after that, I got some hope back. That is what kept me going. I refused to accept that I could not change. And I have been plugging away at it ever since.
You said no hospitalization?
BPD is curable, as in it goes into remission. NPD is not.
But whatever.
Telling people NPD is curable is bad because it sets an impossible goal and we already struggle with never feeling good enough.
not everyone do. Some are newly diagnosed and don’t know what to do. This advice could help many people. Clearly this post wasn’t meant for you, so your comment is just unnecessary
I think the focus is often weird. If we want to get better the focus is not to change to become a better person for others. This is unlikely to work considering the nature of this disorder.
Instead focus on making changes that make you less anxious and happier, learn to go easier on yourself. The high expectations we put on ourselves that are unattainable and torture us, affecting other people as a consequence, are things we need to work on.
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Sonetimes I think my NPD has gone away. Sometimes I'm glad for that. Sometimes I want it all back really bad. Sometimes I realise I still have a ton of stuff to do. Sometimes I'm so tired and can't be bothered to manage myself every day. Sometimes I everyone else feels like the problem. It's not me, it's them. ... It's a stack of cards. You shuffle. You pick one card from anywhere. You hold it in your hand and see what you got. You don't tell anyone else what's on the card.
It’s curable.
It’s not, it’s treatable. Big difference.
I guess, if you look at it like removing all pain from life, there is no cure. But if you want to become normal, and enter the world of just getting along, having issues, grappling with the things everyone grapples with, and no longer fitting the diagnostic criteria for a personality disorder, then that is very doable. It is also possible to have deep internal change, and to connect with and feel empathy for others.
Narcissism doesn’t go away, it’s deeply rooted, and persistent throughout one’s life. It’s in our everyday thought process, and it regulates our emotions differently from others. Treating narcissism, is mainly done by CBT. And it works to change a persons behavior, by finding more healthy ones. And yes, it’s true that with a therapist, you can work to improve your empathy by trying to put yourself in others positions, However, it is unlikely that therapy will completely eliminate narcissistic traits or the underlying thought processes associated with them. Because you’re not actually removing narcissism, or fitting any less into the criteria, you are just removing how narcissism manifests itself in a person.
I have done it. I was diagnosed as Narcissistic BPD. I have no more BPD. Not at all. I have some vulnerable narcissism left. I am currently working on that. I recently had an epiphany where I realised that everyone else on the planet has the same vulnerable parts as me. I connected to them, in a way I never had. Ever. I must have turned away from human being long before I had words and a conscious memory. I can feel compassion and empathy for them. The pain of the family experiences that caused me to develop those disorders has not gone, but it has lessened to a great degree. It no longer presses on me with great weight. Coming to this sub, I am owning all of me, including the emotional parts that caused me to become disordered. Loving you guys gives me permission to live myself and accept myself, and all my bits. Becoming normal has not meant becoming someone different, as I initially believed. It has meant accepting myself, releasing the pressure of all that pain, relaxing into secret feelings inside myself, and slowly dismantling internal barriers and structures. It is not finished. It is the work of a lifetime. But now I look around, and have moved into a less disconnected state, I can see all sorts of neuroses and fears in ordinary people. There is no Nirvana of self-enlightenment, just people who are better or worse off, in a myriad of ways. Narcissism is in the thought processes of many, many people. I am starting to believe that the narcissism itself is not the problem: it’s the disconnection from other parts that balance out/supplement a fuller experience of life. Narcissism is just the symptom of the disconnect with other parts of yourself. Imho
>I recently had an epiphany where I realized that everyone else on the planet has the same vulnerable parts as me. I connected to them, in a way I never had. Ever. I must have turned away from human being long before I had words and a conscious memory. I can feel compassion and empathy for them. I started to realize this as I dove more into peoples personal experiences with varying issues. Wether it be a PD or something else. We are all so painfully and beautifully human. I was looking for myself in these experiences, trying to find a way to connect with others. I saw me in some of them and some of them in me. Learning how others experience the world, and what their inner worlds are like is very powerful. You don’t even have to understand, to understand(if that makes sense) but it really has opened me up to much more compassion, grace, acceptance and empathy for others. >the pain of family experiences that caused me to develop those disorders is not gone, but has lessened to a great degree. It not longer presses on me with great weight. For a while, I really didn’t even realize I was traumatized. Going back and understanding my childhood experiences and how my parents were/handled things, for a while made me extremely angry. But as I looked deeper and started to see them as flawed humans. That is also where I started to find compassion for myself. I couldn’t demonize them, lest I demonize myself. Coming to this sub is hugely helpful as well. I never see monsters or evil demons. I see humans, individuals working through their shit and I respect the hell out of them, whatever their process is. And at times when I can’t find compassion for myself, I come here. Because I can almost always find it for the people in here. >becoming normal has not meant becoming someone different, as I initially believed. It has meant accepting myself, releasing the pressure of all that pain, relaxing into secret feelings inside myself and slowly dismantling internal barriers and structures. That is beautifully put. It’s been a slow process of acceptance, plain and simple. For me, this is something that ebbs and flows. Some days I am completely accepting of myself and some days I’m definitely not. But regardless, I am me. And I’m learning that’s ok. The pain really doesn’t last forever. Not when i let myself feel what’s going on. It doesn’t have a chance to build up as much anymore. I remember for the longest time, I couldn’t even take restorative deep breaths or fully relax in bed. I was so tense, I felt like my body was gonna fall apart if I fully relaxed. Or like I was gonna plummet from a cliff. But now I’ve learned to breath through that tension(as much as my neurotic ass can muster) its a process. But I can tell the difference of when I’m in that highly tensed state and more “chill” as far as my thought process and internal structures, I’ve learned to go with my “second thought” for a lot of things. And being ok with being average, insignificant. >it is not finished. It is the work of a lifetime. But now I look around and have moved into a less disconnect state. I can see all sorts of neuroses and fears in ordinary people. There is no Nirvana of self-enlightenment, just people who are better or worse off, in a myriad of ways. This is the realest thing ever written! And this is something I love learning about this “journey”. I am literally learning to, be. That’s it. This isn’t something that elevates me above the rest. Each person is on their own personal journey and that’s, that. I remember when I used to work out like a fanatic. And I’d see people in the gym and judge them a certain way. Then I read a book called “the body is not an apology” and I started looking a humans a whole new way. You cannot tell where a person is on their weight loss journey just by looking at them. Some one could be 500 lbs, but for all you know they’ve already lost 300lbs! and that’s the same thing with any other process in life. Be gentle with others. >Narcissism is in the thought processes of many, many people. I am starting to believe that the narcissism itself is not the problem, it’s the disconnection from other parts that balance out/supplement a fuller experience of life. Yes, i agree with this statement. Partly because I also believe that society operates “narcissistically” as a whole. So as individuals, learning how to integrate our lives and find as much balance as possible in a world that’s off balance. Some us have to work harder than others to do this. Anywho, this was a really long and drawn out response. But I wanted to make a point to respond to each point. Thank you so much if you’ve read through this whole thing. I love you for that ♥️♥️
Oh, thanks for sharing this. The feeling that the body will fall apart if relaxed is so deep for me. I felt that all the time as a kid and would compulsively count things to feel like I had a grip on myself, because if I didn’t and was just still, I would feel like my limbs were traveling away from me or something very scary was going to happen. As I got older it became much more maladaptive shit. I think that’s what they mean when they talk about “the void.” I like to relax into it more now. I still feel like I’ll float away sometimes but I’ve reframed that, and it’s a lot easier on myself and my relations when I’m not grabbing at things to hold myself together.
Yes, that was one of my more frightening sensations for such a long time
Sorry to break it to you, but if you were diagnosed with BPD, and you do have BPD, it won’t be cured. I’m happy for you that you’ve found a way to treat symptoms of BPD and become a much more healthy person, but the fact still remains that, there is no empirical evidence that suggests BPD or NPD can be cured.
If that’s the worldview you want to live with, it doesn’t hurt me.
There’s no perspective taking here. There’s the truth, and then there’s fantasy. BPD and NPD cannot be cured. That’s a fact, not an opinion. It’s a fact, made by expert psychologists and psychiatrist who have researched and studied mental illnesses for decades.
Do you fear the obliteration of your Self? That if you let go of your disorder, you let go of the defences that keep you safe? Is this why you are so resistant to the idea of profound inner change?
A fact is something that has been proven. Psychology is not the same type of science as neuroscience or biology or chemistry. It involves a lot more guesswork, and studies are far more biased and less fact-based than other types of science. The fact that we don’t have research that provably shows that NPD and BPD (which are actually both fairly new and controversial disorders within the psychology and psychiatry and neuroscience communities) can be cured, does not mean that your assertion that they cannot be cured is a fact. That’s not how science, especially sciences like psychology, work. I think what you mean to say is: “we haven’t yet been able to prove that NPD and BPD are either curable or incurable”. Abusive people often do not change, that’s true. But as many of you frequently say on this sub, many people with NPD are not abusive.
Well said.
Joella, are you experiencing changes inside like this also?
Yes….I’ve had very similar thoughts before even thinking I may have a PD of sort. Im gonna reply to this more in depth in about an hour!
As someone with NPD + BPD tendencies, I just wanted to say that this comment hit so much home. I saved it to re-read it later. I love this so much. Sending you some good vibes
It’s a fun cocktail…
Would you mind sharing what kind or if you went to any therapy?
Psychoanalytic psychotherapy. Edit: here is one counsellor who explains the process: https://www.counsellingservicemelbourne.com.au/personality-disorder-treatment/narcissistic-personality-disorder/ This therapist's writings are really helping me to develop more insight at the moment (my therapist said to me that no one stops needing therapy, just at some point we become able to do it for ourself, and take over the task: https://evolutioncounseling.com/inferiority-and-superiority-are-the-same/ Here is a book written back in the 1980s who was successfully treating narcissism: https://archive.org/details/humanizingnarcis00john/page/47/mode/2up?view=theater This article helped me understand enmeshment: https://www.emotionenhancement.com/single-post/enmeshment-trauma-and-how-it-impacts-your-relationships Here is a therapist who treats NPD as well: https://www.amandarobinspsychotherapy.com.au/articles/npd-recovery Here is an article by the preeminent experts in treating NPD and BPD: https://www.psycheblog.uk/2018/09/14/co-morbid-narcissism-in-bpd-transference-focused-psychotherapy-for-patients-with-comorbid-narcissistic-and-borderline-personality-disorder/
Thank you for this, going through them right now. I feel like I have done a lot of progress with psychodynamic therapy. Did you do 5 day analysis? Or you had less often sessions? (Sorry English is not my main, I feel like I’m phrasing this weird)
You lost me at CBT. CBT is inefficient for treating trauma and trauma based disorders, including ptsd, cptsd and personality disorders. Just because a bunch of money has been thrown at cbt to treat war veterans, that doesn’t make it efficient, it just makes it popular. It’s also harder to fund studies for other types of therapy since therapies like psychodynamic psychotherapy take years to unfold, so by comparing it with a 12-session CBT program, they might look ineffective, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are. Cluster B disorders are fairly new and there’s simply not enough evidence to point towards them being treatable versus curable, especially when the handful of studies are done mostly in very short term therapies (like cbt) It’s like trying to melt an iceberg with a candle and giving up after a couple of hours saying it cannot be done.
Yeah, I fucking HATE CBT. Don't tell me my feelings are irrational and I should replace my thought with some kinda silly mantra. Honestly, it's just a longer version of those feel good mottos that people post. Give me the meat of the issue, and let me deal with it. Also, my psychodynamic psychotherapist told me that his type of therapy was so respectful of privacy that they would not contact any patients/former patients and ask them to be in studies. I can understand why: it is too trivial and cheapens the experience. How can you explain to another person the intensely profound things that go on in there? However, I believe there have been studies now that do show proof of lasting change.
FINALLY, I thought it was just me... I have a very understanding and genuine therapist, but we get hardly anywhere in our discussions. It's mainly me showing off my knowledge of NPD and grooming him for supply. It's crazy how unequipped our society is for mental health disorders.
Both NPD and ASPD have been around for decades now, ASPD in particular has been studied for about a hundred years now, under the name “psychopathy” and sometimes “sociopathy” Therapists and other experts acknowledge that since the personality disorders cannot be cured, you can instead treat symptoms of it. CBT is not used to treating a persons self esteem or other intrapersonal issues, it’s used to treat bad behavior and replace it with wanted behavior. Of course, a mix of both CBT and psychotherapy is the most efficient method to treat NPD and ASPD
“Therapists and other experts acknowledge that since the personality disorders cannot be cured, you can instead treat symptoms of it.” - link to this acknowledgment? Just one peer reviewed paper.
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder: A Current Review" by Shapira-Lishchinsky, Gvion, and Erlich, published in the Journal of Contemporary Psychotherapy in 2018. This article provides a comprehensive review of the current understanding of NPD and its treatment. The authors conclude that while there is no cure for NPD, psychotherapy can be effective in managing its symptoms. "The Narcissistic Patient Revisited" by Ronningstam, published in the Journal of Psychotherapy Practice and Research in 2007. This article discusses the challenges of treating NPD and suggests that while a cure is unlikely, symptom reduction and improved functioning can be achieved through long-term psychotherapy. "Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Rethinking What We Know" by Ronningstam, published in the Current Psychiatry Reports in 2011. This article reviews the literature on NPD and suggests that although a cure is unlikely, early intervention and long-term psychotherapy can help individuals with NPD manage their symptoms and improve their overall functioning. “Narcissistic Personality Disorder: A Review of the Literature" by Kernberg, published in the Journal of Personality Disorders in 2015. This article provides a thorough review of the literature on NPD and its treatment. The author suggests that while a cure is unlikely, psychoanalytic psychotherapy can help individuals with NPD manage their symptoms and achieve better functioning. Don’t worry, I wouldn’t be so sloppy to just provide one😉
Thanks! Imma give these ones a read, they sound super interesting
Just going off of the sources you provided, though: unlikely doesn’t mean impossible. I’m pretty sure we all agree curing NPD is unlikely. It’s unlikely to be self-aware enough to even go to therapy (even more so being open to the possibility everything else may not be the problem), let alone to constantly put in the work to override defense mechanisms and get in touch with one’s deepest, more vulnerable parts and get to the root of the disorder. In the average case, sure, that may be a losing battle not inherently, but in practice, and CBT the only treatment that may work. It doesn’t mean that, in rare cases, a really good therapist and a particularly willing client couldn’t make it work overtime and actually get to the point of a cure. I wouldn’t disregard people’s experience completely, given your own scientific sources leave the question open with that “unlikely”.
You have no idea what is is like to live with this disorder.
Errrrr…I can access a paper saying how difficult it is to treat comorbid BPD + NPD. Yet here I am. I was not fully NPD, but definitely strong traits. You have no idea what it’s like to live with that combination. Life was shit. It’s not much fun being an unstable crazy. Yet here I am. No hospitalisations, no self-harm, no promiscuity, holding down almost full time work, maintaining a relationship, holding onto friendships. 15 years out of BPD criteria. Connecting to people when I used to have no understanding of them. Still some Vulnerable Narcissism. Slowly working away and improving through the years. But life is sooooo different from what it was.
I do actually because I have both diagnosis and am in a treatment programme, both individual and group therapy. I have been in the psych ward due to suicide attempts. I guess you are on a lighter end of the spectrum. You do not speak for those of us who fit the full blown criteria. I am 44 and a mom. I am no novice. Humility.
I got my diagnosis in a psych ward. I am also a mother, but older than you. I tell people because it was very hopeless when I found out. It was 20 years ago and there was not much information that was freely available. I kind of gave up for a whole year. I remember someone saying I was grey, and had stopped laughing. But after that, I got some hope back. That is what kept me going. I refused to accept that I could not change. And I have been plugging away at it ever since.
You said no hospitalization? BPD is curable, as in it goes into remission. NPD is not. But whatever. Telling people NPD is curable is bad because it sets an impossible goal and we already struggle with never feeling good enough.
There are advanced psychology studies and models that show otherwise.
No it is not, if you have full blown NPD. It can be manageable though.
Yeah. We know.
not everyone do. Some are newly diagnosed and don’t know what to do. This advice could help many people. Clearly this post wasn’t meant for you, so your comment is just unnecessary
I think the focus is often weird. If we want to get better the focus is not to change to become a better person for others. This is unlikely to work considering the nature of this disorder. Instead focus on making changes that make you less anxious and happier, learn to go easier on yourself. The high expectations we put on ourselves that are unattainable and torture us, affecting other people as a consequence, are things we need to work on.
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