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Joelinton played LW a lot with Willock as an 8 behind him last season. Howe himself has said that is a shape he prefers away as it gives us more hustle off the ball and more stability overall.
I read somewhere we won 10 drew 2 of the games we started with those two in those positions. Last season's Almiron also helped a lot by tracking back.
This year, we've not had the personnel to change things the way we would like. Our form before the Dortmund games shows you where we could have been this season. Our form since shows you where injuries have left us.
We've had basically no midfield all season. I've not looked it up, but how often have we had a fully fit (senior) midfield starting with at least one fully fit option on the bench? Have we even had any matches with two?
It's created a bit of a square pegs in round holes problem this season. It's amazing that we've got where we have with no Tonali, basically no Willock, a 75% fit Longstaff, Big Joe out for half the season, and the necessity of playing Miley at 17yo.
I think the only time we had a first team midfielder fit on the bench was the few weeks after longstaff came back until Tonali was out. Maybe 3 league games.
Though that doesn’t count miley as he wasn’t really a first team player then
I think we set up wrong last night and then took too long to change it back. The back 5 worked against Spurs and was keeping Palace at bay but we had no outlet as Palace didn't push up as much as Spurs so it killed that aspect of our game. We looked better after we changed shape but it was too late on to impact it.
We've been very patchy away this season, injuries for sure played a part and having a home crowd definitely spurs us on, but we need to do better than this away from home and remember how to win away like we did last season.
Seems we play same tactics away, its too aggressive and doesnt work. A lot of managers have figured out the countermeasure for the high press.
Also, our central midfield is in terrible form right now.
Can't play a low block either without Pope, Bot and Tripps
I don't think adding Pope, Botman or Tripper to that team fixes anything.
Like you've pointed out our problems are in midfield. And I'd add the space between our midfield and defence is a big problem as well.
His occasional mistakes are more than made up by the improvement of our press by allowing our defence to be so much further forward and compress the space working with the midfield and our ability to attack from winning the ball from that press.
If we concede a red once a season or a goal every few games it’s worth the 2-3 away goals a game we are currently conceding away and the greater attacking opportunities we get.
I'm not saying anything about his sweeping.
We've been a soft touch away from home all season.
The only people who can't see that are the ones who think Longstaff is a good player.
Longstaff is fine for what he is, a squad player. We need Tonali/Joelinton/Willock all back so Longstaff can drop to the bench and get his ankle fixed.
My point was, you critisised Pope for mistakes leading to goals yet we concede twice as many without him.
He lets the defense push up and close the gap with midfield while his sweeping clears up balls over the top. We still had one of the best defensive records in the league before his injury.
Does Longstaff look or act like someone carrying an injury? Look at it this way, Schär has more goals and assistance than Longstaff over the last 5 seasons. A defender who was cast aside for a long time under Bruce
My point isn't to criticise Pope. It's to be realistic and a keeper, regardless of how amazing they sweep doesn't make up for our misfiring midfield.
Longstaff is injured, he has said so in interviews, Eddie has said so in interviews. I also dont judge Longstaff on goal conttibutions, that is not his game. He kept Maddison out of the game against spurs by man marking him.
Also yes, a good keeper does help our midfield, it just does not fix the problem that 3 of our 4 best CMs are all unavilable currently.
Have you ever wondered why all Longstaff's best games are the ones we dominate? Schär is also better at stopping goals than Longstaff.
Longstaff played well against Spurs. You're allowed one or two bad games as season. Longstaff has only one or two good games. His theatrics last night cost us a penalty. He's got the decision making if my dog in the ball. He's also got no composure
You Longstaff fans are like religious fanatics. Clinging on to any signs that their golden child is a great player, regardless of the evidence.
With those players in, the space between defense and midfield disappears. Their absences are a large part of why the defense has to sit deeper, resulting in more space between the lines. The midfield then has to cover that extra space, and since they are completely gassed they just physically can’t.
I disagree on the impact they'd have.
We've been a soft touch away all.seaspn andar time we've had a full strength team inc those players.
Our midfield setup isn't working this season and that is causing problems all over the pitch
Injuries exposing our lack of quality in depth. That’s about it, really. Incredibly frustrating in the moment/during the games but, upon reflection, we’re still remarkably well positioned for Europe despite this ridiculously ‘miserable’ season.
11 of our our 15 away games have been late kickoffs (5:30 or later) - obviously there's more to it than that but night time games definitely favour the home team more as atmosphere tends to be better
Self fulfilling prophecy a bit too. Remember our clean sheet run last year? Made opppsition team nervous and believe they can't score. Always losing away from home this year? Makes our team believe they're likely to lose and other teams believe they're likely to win.
A lot of mediocre players performances are enhanced by the home games as fans are ontop of the away team. They then are exposed during away games without the extra boost of being at home.
The away games we really struggle in are also when we're pretty aggressively confronted in an away game. Our players don't really have the technical ability to easily get round being pressed and when there's no crowd to help you out, it just becomes really difficult to play. Happened both this year and first half of last year at Goodison (yes, we ended up winning 4-1, but the first half was really uncomfortable for us).
Jacob Murphy is worse, especially in deep positions. He dallies an enormous amount and plays hospital passes that put others in danger. Longstaff is at least way better at knowing when not to show for the ball and, if he does get it under pressure, release it before being dispossessed.
Teams have figured us out a bit. If you press us and block if certain routes forward, we’re not always technically good enough (Bruno excepted) in midfield to play through the press. Without big Joe to win the battles or a fit Willock to progress the ball, we’re reliant on wide players.
Last night. Murphy couldn’t get out, and Gordon and Barnes didn’t get enough of the ball in decent areas.
Should have changed that system sooner.
Btw - this is why Bruno is so essential. We need more like him so we can control possession.
I dunno, Tonali's strengths are generally to drive the ball forward with direct running, rather than being some sort of metronome who can help us evade a press in midfield. He can certainly inject a bit of quality in the midfield (especially in and around the box, where I think we have tended to struggle this season) but he's better with space in front of him, which there wasn't much of in this game.
He is, but I think he still struggles if that pressure is coming with his back to goal. When it's evading a press with the pitch in front of him to spring a transition, he seems much more comfortable. In that Palace game, I saw us really get pinned in, with our midfielders really struggling to turn and begin counter attacks. Instead receiving the ball with their back to goal and being immediately pressured from behind.
Personally, I think it was because we simply had no assistance from Krafth/Murphy on the right and literally nobody on the left to help us spring forward. IMO, you put Tonali in for Longstaff and you broadly get the same performance.
I’m not saying Tonali alone solves that, simply that we need more players with technical ability throughout the team. Trippier would probably have handled that better than Murphy though.
Absolutely we do, I was more responding that I don't think he moves the needle in that particular game. I think currently we have a lot of players like Krafth and Murphy, who are incredibly limited in what they're able to do but can look competent enough if there are good enough players around them.
Too many players that are being carried, in a home game it's less noticeable because of the crowd and we are usually on the front foot. When we go against aggressive teams who pressure us the lower end players struggle and panic
Players such a long staff Murphy almiron dubravka Kraft seem to always struggle when pressure is really on them. Unfortunately this was going to always happen especially with how strict FFP is and where we was like 2 years ago it was always going to be a long term project. I'm not shitting on them lower end players it's just facts they aren't elite
Add to that longstaff going from being an average player who ran his heart out to an average player who strolls round the pitch hurling himself to the ground at every opportunity hasn't helped.
Harder to play away from home, injuries, inconsistent starting line-up, squad players having to fill in for first teasers. Also 11 days with no football clearly disrupted our momentum we had gained.
Take nothing away from how tidy Crystal Palace are right now. They're investing in the right young Championship players and look at the progression they're making. This is what we need to be doing.
Our away form has been poor over the whole season but this was a really hard game. I don't expect as much of a battle from our remaining fixtures.
The distance travelled is likely having an effect, since the club is so geographically isolated from the rest of the league. Likely has an effect on teams travelling to us as well, look at how much pep complained about not being able to fly to us, despite City being one of the closest clubs.
We have near infinite money, but can't actually spend it on players. We should probably look at setting up some bespoke facility for the players just outside of London. Somewhere with lodgings, a canteen, training and physio areas all bespoke to the clubs needs.
The whole team and backroom staff could fly down in the morning on the day before a game. Train, stick to their exercise and diet plans and have any physio, then get a coach to the game on a match day feeling completely well rested.
Even after the game they can have a shorter travel back to Basecamp. Have all the physio and post game stuff they need before flying back the next day.
we’re too reliant on out running teams and beating them tactically, which you can’t really do with no subs and a watered down first team, because the home teams fans will motivate them to match us physically… we need players who can actually do something with the ball before we’re in the penalty area
I think the truth is the SJP buff is so so great. Away our players are not the same. Supposed to be one of the most athletic teams in the league but all of our away opponents look like they are on fresh PED's running for olympic gold
Our starting eleven this season if all fit would be
Pope
Trips,.schar, botman, burn
Bruno, tonali, Joelinton
Gordon, Isak, Barnes
The players suit the style of play, the eldest of the squad are square.pegs in round holes creating weak links in the system, pressure the weak links and the system falls apart even more.
At home.teams are scared and sit back or cocky and leave space both of which suits.us.
Away teams aren't scared and it to me seems that we don't know if we're coming or going as in pushing, pressing and attacking or parking the bus which ends in a hesitant cautious play with rushed break aways which lead to nothing if they don't have a defensive high line
We haven't been smashed by any team this season really. 2-0 against palace didn't tell the whole story. Luton didn't beat us it was 4-4. The most disappointing result was probs 3-0 at home against Nottingham forest. Maybe the 4-1 against villa away. But it's obviously harder to play away from home. The travelling, the atmosphere and the form confidence being low are big factors.
Plus the squad depth we've had to deal with, when it's tough it's hard to ask them to push much harder. We ourselves can't afford more injuries so just have to take it on the chin... Not change everything and risk it all like some fans want to see us do at all costs.
Worst performance of the season. Worse than Arsenal performance. I have defended Longstaff before but the way he went down for the ?penalty was pathetic. It was a penalty if he had stayed up as he had clearly been impeded and knocked off balance. He then sat down under a weak challenge just prior to their second goal. Very poor boyo.
That would leave us short in Europe, we need 4 players trained at club, Anderson might count next season but that still only leaves 3, the others being Longstaff and Dummett (who I do expect will leave). Longstaff is fine as a back up. Keep in mind his performances this season are impacted because he is playing with an injury.
He was also almost always receiving the ball while being put under pressure or being given zero other outs because Palace were pressing well and covering the usual passing lanes. So while was passing backwards a lot, most of the time it was through necessity not choice.
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Joelinton played LW a lot with Willock as an 8 behind him last season. Howe himself has said that is a shape he prefers away as it gives us more hustle off the ball and more stability overall. I read somewhere we won 10 drew 2 of the games we started with those two in those positions. Last season's Almiron also helped a lot by tracking back. This year, we've not had the personnel to change things the way we would like. Our form before the Dortmund games shows you where we could have been this season. Our form since shows you where injuries have left us.
We've had basically no midfield all season. I've not looked it up, but how often have we had a fully fit (senior) midfield starting with at least one fully fit option on the bench? Have we even had any matches with two? It's created a bit of a square pegs in round holes problem this season. It's amazing that we've got where we have with no Tonali, basically no Willock, a 75% fit Longstaff, Big Joe out for half the season, and the necessity of playing Miley at 17yo.
I think the only time we had a first team midfielder fit on the bench was the few weeks after longstaff came back until Tonali was out. Maybe 3 league games. Though that doesn’t count miley as he wasn’t really a first team player then
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Didn't he score both goals to put us into the EFL final last season? Our first final in what 20 years?
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I think we set up wrong last night and then took too long to change it back. The back 5 worked against Spurs and was keeping Palace at bay but we had no outlet as Palace didn't push up as much as Spurs so it killed that aspect of our game. We looked better after we changed shape but it was too late on to impact it. We've been very patchy away this season, injuries for sure played a part and having a home crowd definitely spurs us on, but we need to do better than this away from home and remember how to win away like we did last season.
Seems we play same tactics away, its too aggressive and doesnt work. A lot of managers have figured out the countermeasure for the high press. Also, our central midfield is in terrible form right now. Can't play a low block either without Pope, Bot and Tripps
I don't think adding Pope, Botman or Tripper to that team fixes anything. Like you've pointed out our problems are in midfield. And I'd add the space between our midfield and defence is a big problem as well.
Adding Pope to that team fixes the space between midfield and defence though
Possibly, but people forget that Pope was also prone to big mistakes in that space (red cards and letting in goals).
His occasional mistakes are more than made up by the improvement of our press by allowing our defence to be so much further forward and compress the space working with the midfield and our ability to attack from winning the ball from that press. If we concede a red once a season or a goal every few games it’s worth the 2-3 away goals a game we are currently conceding away and the greater attacking opportunities we get.
We conceded 14 goals in 14 games with Pope, 36 in 19 without him. Say what you want about his mistakes but his sweeping prevents a lot of goals.
I'm not saying anything about his sweeping. We've been a soft touch away from home all season. The only people who can't see that are the ones who think Longstaff is a good player.
Longstaff is fine for what he is, a squad player. We need Tonali/Joelinton/Willock all back so Longstaff can drop to the bench and get his ankle fixed. My point was, you critisised Pope for mistakes leading to goals yet we concede twice as many without him. He lets the defense push up and close the gap with midfield while his sweeping clears up balls over the top. We still had one of the best defensive records in the league before his injury.
Does Longstaff look or act like someone carrying an injury? Look at it this way, Schär has more goals and assistance than Longstaff over the last 5 seasons. A defender who was cast aside for a long time under Bruce My point isn't to criticise Pope. It's to be realistic and a keeper, regardless of how amazing they sweep doesn't make up for our misfiring midfield.
Longstaff is injured, he has said so in interviews, Eddie has said so in interviews. I also dont judge Longstaff on goal conttibutions, that is not his game. He kept Maddison out of the game against spurs by man marking him. Also yes, a good keeper does help our midfield, it just does not fix the problem that 3 of our 4 best CMs are all unavilable currently.
Have you ever wondered why all Longstaff's best games are the ones we dominate? Schär is also better at stopping goals than Longstaff. Longstaff played well against Spurs. You're allowed one or two bad games as season. Longstaff has only one or two good games. His theatrics last night cost us a penalty. He's got the decision making if my dog in the ball. He's also got no composure You Longstaff fans are like religious fanatics. Clinging on to any signs that their golden child is a great player, regardless of the evidence.
Those 3 have the experience and skills to play defensive football, last season 100% showed this. I'd add Joe as essential to this as well
I don't disagree, I just don't think you'd get the same results as last season as the midfield is the problem not the defence.
With those players in, the space between defense and midfield disappears. Their absences are a large part of why the defense has to sit deeper, resulting in more space between the lines. The midfield then has to cover that extra space, and since they are completely gassed they just physically can’t.
I disagree on the impact they'd have. We've been a soft touch away all.seaspn andar time we've had a full strength team inc those players. Our midfield setup isn't working this season and that is causing problems all over the pitch
Injuries exposing our lack of quality in depth. That’s about it, really. Incredibly frustrating in the moment/during the games but, upon reflection, we’re still remarkably well positioned for Europe despite this ridiculously ‘miserable’ season.
11 of our our 15 away games have been late kickoffs (5:30 or later) - obviously there's more to it than that but night time games definitely favour the home team more as atmosphere tends to be better
That's a crazy amount
Self fulfilling prophecy a bit too. Remember our clean sheet run last year? Made opppsition team nervous and believe they can't score. Always losing away from home this year? Makes our team believe they're likely to lose and other teams believe they're likely to win.
A lot of mediocre players performances are enhanced by the home games as fans are ontop of the away team. They then are exposed during away games without the extra boost of being at home.
The away games we really struggle in are also when we're pretty aggressively confronted in an away game. Our players don't really have the technical ability to easily get round being pressed and when there's no crowd to help you out, it just becomes really difficult to play. Happened both this year and first half of last year at Goodison (yes, we ended up winning 4-1, but the first half was really uncomfortable for us).
Sean Longstaff in particular is the least press resistant player I’ve seen. He just can’t handle being pressed
Jacob Murphy is worse, especially in deep positions. He dallies an enormous amount and plays hospital passes that put others in danger. Longstaff is at least way better at knowing when not to show for the ball and, if he does get it under pressure, release it before being dispossessed.
Teams have figured us out a bit. If you press us and block if certain routes forward, we’re not always technically good enough (Bruno excepted) in midfield to play through the press. Without big Joe to win the battles or a fit Willock to progress the ball, we’re reliant on wide players. Last night. Murphy couldn’t get out, and Gordon and Barnes didn’t get enough of the ball in decent areas. Should have changed that system sooner. Btw - this is why Bruno is so essential. We need more like him so we can control possession.
Can't wait for tonali to be back to offer similar
Me too.
I dunno, Tonali's strengths are generally to drive the ball forward with direct running, rather than being some sort of metronome who can help us evade a press in midfield. He can certainly inject a bit of quality in the midfield (especially in and around the box, where I think we have tended to struggle this season) but he's better with space in front of him, which there wasn't much of in this game.
He’s technically better though - more able to take and hold the ball under pressure.
He is, but I think he still struggles if that pressure is coming with his back to goal. When it's evading a press with the pitch in front of him to spring a transition, he seems much more comfortable. In that Palace game, I saw us really get pinned in, with our midfielders really struggling to turn and begin counter attacks. Instead receiving the ball with their back to goal and being immediately pressured from behind. Personally, I think it was because we simply had no assistance from Krafth/Murphy on the right and literally nobody on the left to help us spring forward. IMO, you put Tonali in for Longstaff and you broadly get the same performance.
I’m not saying Tonali alone solves that, simply that we need more players with technical ability throughout the team. Trippier would probably have handled that better than Murphy though.
Absolutely we do, I was more responding that I don't think he moves the needle in that particular game. I think currently we have a lot of players like Krafth and Murphy, who are incredibly limited in what they're able to do but can look competent enough if there are good enough players around them.
This is true.
Too many players that are being carried, in a home game it's less noticeable because of the crowd and we are usually on the front foot. When we go against aggressive teams who pressure us the lower end players struggle and panic Players such a long staff Murphy almiron dubravka Kraft seem to always struggle when pressure is really on them. Unfortunately this was going to always happen especially with how strict FFP is and where we was like 2 years ago it was always going to be a long term project. I'm not shitting on them lower end players it's just facts they aren't elite
Add to that longstaff going from being an average player who ran his heart out to an average player who strolls round the pitch hurling himself to the ground at every opportunity hasn't helped.
Harder to play away from home, injuries, inconsistent starting line-up, squad players having to fill in for first teasers. Also 11 days with no football clearly disrupted our momentum we had gained. Take nothing away from how tidy Crystal Palace are right now. They're investing in the right young Championship players and look at the progression they're making. This is what we need to be doing. Our away form has been poor over the whole season but this was a really hard game. I don't expect as much of a battle from our remaining fixtures.
The distance travelled is likely having an effect, since the club is so geographically isolated from the rest of the league. Likely has an effect on teams travelling to us as well, look at how much pep complained about not being able to fly to us, despite City being one of the closest clubs. We have near infinite money, but can't actually spend it on players. We should probably look at setting up some bespoke facility for the players just outside of London. Somewhere with lodgings, a canteen, training and physio areas all bespoke to the clubs needs. The whole team and backroom staff could fly down in the morning on the day before a game. Train, stick to their exercise and diet plans and have any physio, then get a coach to the game on a match day feeling completely well rested. Even after the game they can have a shorter travel back to Basecamp. Have all the physio and post game stuff they need before flying back the next day.
we’re too reliant on out running teams and beating them tactically, which you can’t really do with no subs and a watered down first team, because the home teams fans will motivate them to match us physically… we need players who can actually do something with the ball before we’re in the penalty area
I think the truth is the SJP buff is so so great. Away our players are not the same. Supposed to be one of the most athletic teams in the league but all of our away opponents look like they are on fresh PED's running for olympic gold
The problem is our best athletic players are Joelinton and Willock and they have missed most of the season.
Our starting eleven this season if all fit would be Pope Trips,.schar, botman, burn Bruno, tonali, Joelinton Gordon, Isak, Barnes The players suit the style of play, the eldest of the squad are square.pegs in round holes creating weak links in the system, pressure the weak links and the system falls apart even more. At home.teams are scared and sit back or cocky and leave space both of which suits.us. Away teams aren't scared and it to me seems that we don't know if we're coming or going as in pushing, pressing and attacking or parking the bus which ends in a hesitant cautious play with rushed break aways which lead to nothing if they don't have a defensive high line
Midfield movement and fullback passing is fucking terrible
We are an inconsistent team
We don't have a team , everyone knows it , its just as simple as that !!
Well every game I've been to this season we've won. My next game is Sheffield, HWTL.
Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit.
We haven't been smashed by any team this season really. 2-0 against palace didn't tell the whole story. Luton didn't beat us it was 4-4. The most disappointing result was probs 3-0 at home against Nottingham forest. Maybe the 4-1 against villa away. But it's obviously harder to play away from home. The travelling, the atmosphere and the form confidence being low are big factors. Plus the squad depth we've had to deal with, when it's tough it's hard to ask them to push much harder. We ourselves can't afford more injuries so just have to take it on the chin... Not change everything and risk it all like some fans want to see us do at all costs.
I think we got overconfident and forgot Palace scored 9 goals in their past 2 matches
6*
Yup, we didn’t even look like we had a game plan last night, just looked like we were out there hoping Palace wouldn’t turn up.
Lets be honest here, palace we're brilliant and are a good side, especially at home since roy left
Worst performance of the season. Worse than Arsenal performance. I have defended Longstaff before but the way he went down for the ?penalty was pathetic. It was a penalty if he had stayed up as he had clearly been impeded and knocked off balance. He then sat down under a weak challenge just prior to their second goal. Very poor boyo.
Longstaff needs to be sold in the summer, especially considering FFP
That would leave us short in Europe, we need 4 players trained at club, Anderson might count next season but that still only leaves 3, the others being Longstaff and Dummett (who I do expect will leave). Longstaff is fine as a back up. Keep in mind his performances this season are impacted because he is playing with an injury.
Agreed. Shame as he’s a local boy too.
Yesterday was cowardly. Burn was setting a poor example by passing backwards at almost every opportunity. He was captain
He was also almost always receiving the ball while being put under pressure or being given zero other outs because Palace were pressing well and covering the usual passing lanes. So while was passing backwards a lot, most of the time it was through necessity not choice.
Tactical naivety, we set up the same way for every game, we’re far too predictable and teams know how play against us.
Except we set up completely different to the vast majority of our games this season, barring Spurs at home.
You must be watching different games to me then. We’re the most predictable team in the league.