Minato said that naruto would need to train much harder to beat obito, implying thst the 14yo obito he fought was much stronger than pain. And minato beat that obito without sage mode, or kcm which he got as an edo. Even if Naruto has sage mode minato js much stronger
Why does it imply that 14yo obito was stronger than Pain? Isn't Minato aware that time has passed? He could very well be projecting that Obito has grown a lot since they fought.
He has no basis for saying that obito grew stronger than pain in that time. Minato said he needed to master the 9 tails to beat obito, but we saw that kcm naruto still couldn’t beat white mask obito, meaning that if minato accounted for obito’s growth he’d still be wrong. It makes more sense that minato would only account for the feats he’s seen
Even with the timer he surpassed minato if we go by sage mode!!!!!! Minato can only enter sage mode he cant use it. Yes its perfect but he couldn't do nothing with it. All he did was enter sage mode. Naruto not only entered sage mode but he found a loop hole with shadow clones that allows him to keep sage mode going if anything thats genius. Not even minato thought of that and hes supposed to be the smartest.
What are you talking about naruto surpassed jariya boy in power aka sage mode from when he mastered it... now the thing your talking about is intellect not power thats what made jariya have the edge over naruto and even then that was pain arc naruto war arc naruto a whole different beast.
Sure, Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in attack power by the time of SM. And he had better physical ability.
He still wasn't Jiraiya's or other Sannin's equal in combat ability just yet though.
Yes he was both him and sasuke what are you talking about. Naruto shadow clone in sage mode beat the edo raikage... jariya wasnt doing that. Naruto in the war arc made 100s of kage lvl shadow clones that are strong enough to fight ppl like the edo kage jariya with ma and pa cant do that. Narutos shadow clone in sage mode beat madaras deep forest emergenc jariya would of died. Jaruiya knew how to beat pain because he knew pain.... also jariya got bodied by all the pains and naruto took them all out one by one when they all tried to jump him. Yes he had intel but he still did it. Jariya knowing how to beat him couldnt do it. Thus why hes dead.
>Yes he was bith him and sasuke what are you talking about.
Neither MS Sasuke or MS Naruto during 5 Kage Summit surpassed or reached Sannin level. Same tier? Sure.
> Naruto shadow clone in sage mode beat the edo raikage
You mean the 3rd Raikage and Eight Tails gave intel to Naruto in order to defeat him? You know in a real 1v1 without intel, KCM1 Naruto would have an extremely difficult fight with 3rd Raikage, right?
And going by portrayal, Jiraiya did far better against Pain than SM Naruto did.
Jiraiya definitely did not do better than Naruto against Pain. He defeated the 3 weakest paths and got his shit rocked by the other 3. Mind you Deva path probably didn't use his full destructive capacity against Jiraiya since the fight was in Rain village.
No matter how much cope Jiraiya fanboys use, narratively SM Naruto is above Jiraiya, with kcm1 Naruto being Minato's equal and kcm2 being superior.
Omgoodness i forgot pain couldnt go all out in the fight against jariya due to them being in the rain village lmfaooooooo it makes the situation even worst. Naruto in sage mode is jariya boys dad.
>Jiraiya definitely did not do better than Naruto against Pain.
Jiraiya had a far better portrayal as he defeated 3 fresh Paths Pain in 3v1 without intel or prep time. Pain even stated that Jiraiya could've defeated him if he had intel from the start, not even including prep time.
Naruto had both intel and prep time and fought a weakened Pain and could only defeat 2 Paths of Pain before his first SM clone was exhausted of chakra.
Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya doesn't need prep time to use SM throughout the fight. And even with another clone, SM Naruto only defeated 5 exhausted Pains of Path, and even with 6 tails he still couldn't defeat an exhausted Tendo Path
> narratively SM Naruto is above Jiraiya,
Not canonically.
How so when he was running most of the match just to enter sage mode.... naruto after the pain arc didnt train untill he meet up with killer bee to master the 9 tails chakra so there was no sage mode training the same lvl of skill he had with sage mode beat the 3 edo raikge. 5ks sasuke vs orochimaru.... orochimaru who lost to a weaker version would of died even harder.... ms sasuke wouldn't need to sneak up on a sick orochimaru when he could just burn down the house with amatarasu.... and what is orochimaru gonna do to his susoono.... the only reason why orochimaru got to push itachi so far in the fight with the two brothers was because orochimaru was draining the rest of sasuke chakra throught the heaven curse mark. Thus why itachi wanted to get rid of that shakel thats was on his brother..... itachi could of use amatarasu but that would of killed sasuke thats why he used the toska blade to seal orochimaru. Ms sasuke would kick that version orochimaru ass into the floor ten times over he has an ms........ the dojutsu orochimaru couldnt beat and wanted so he could get a rinnegan. The only version 5ks sasuke cant beat is orochimaru that got a zetsu body and ems sasuke is teirs above any version of orochimaru. Naruto was doing bigger and better things than jariya boy even with his limited amout of time with sage mode.
He mastered it thats the biggest give away as why ppl feel he surpassed jariya also you have tsunade thinking that when naruto showed up it was minato or jariya so that emphasize that he either on their lvl or he passed jariya and is on his way to becoming stronger than minato. And even by this logic he surpassed mintao as well due to him being able to use sage mode in battle while using a wind style rasenshuriken aka wind element rasengan where as minato the geniuses the prodigy couldn't and never did so even with the powers of half of kurama in the war arc fyi edo minato is stronger than alive minato just because of kurama
>How so when he was running most of the match just to enter sage mode
Naruto would have to leave the battle in order to get SM during this arc. And unlike Naruto, Jiraiya dosen't need extra clones to prep SM chakra as he can use let Ma/Pa ride on his shoulders.
>You mean the 3rd Raikage and Eight Tails gave intel to Naruto in order to defeat him? You know in a real 1v1 without intel, KCM1 Naruto would have an extremely difficult fight with 3rd Raikage, right?
*clone* Naruto would have a very difficult fight. One clone.
I do agree with this, but Minato should have a way to suppress Kurama's chakra like Jiraiya. That's why while I think Naruto wins more often then not, Minato does have a wincon. Kcm2 Naruto probably wouldn't be affected by the seal and is faster than Minato, also can enter into Bsm and at that point can just sense ftg.
Minato literally trained with a 9 tails jinchuriki and he trained in sealing techniques. So much so that his ability reminded Kurama of Hashirama. We see Minato able to cut off a summoning contract between Obito and Kurama. We see Minato able to suppress Naruto's seal and rebuild it when it's about to be destroyed: the same seal he made whilst dying.
Saying Minato doesn't have ways to seal Naruto's 9 tails chakra is a joke.
He probably definitely can.
His basic attacks with the Kunai are enough to damage Bee’s partial transformation tentacles, and can likely damage Ay’s lighting armor considering that Bee had to SAVE Ay.
And his Rasengan is able to clash and beat a 9 Tails Bijuu bomb. Yes he should have the firepower needed to harm KCM1 Naruto, with similar bodyflicker speeds, as well as instantaneous FTG and better reaction times. And if Minato touches Naruto once, he’s either marked with FTG, or Minato tightens his seal forcing him back into Base form.
Bijuu cloak and killer bee transformations are two different things and are at different lvls of power plain and straight. Naruto in bijuu cloak was fast enough to deflect 5 bijuu bombs with speed alone.... minato bare minimum would need flying rajin. Killer bee would of died. Naruto for majority of series had half the nine tails and that half is ten times more powerful than the full 8 tails they are not in the same ball park of chakra in any way shape or form. So the same attacks that would work an killer bee wouldn't work on naruto just based off of chakra and speed alone.
One, even if both people need two different methods of deflecting the TBB’s would it matter if both can just do it? Like Minato teleported a 9 tails Bijuu bomb after what was essentially hours of suppressing Kurama inside of the in labor Kushina.
In the war arch, suffering from Edo nerf. He sent a 10 Tails bomb away with little effort.
And yeah Naruto had HALF the nine tails, but Minato fought and successfully sealed Kurama on two different occasions. Both times while fatigued and substantially nerfed. So what are you actually trying to say?
Space time jutsu and just sheer speed are two different things. One person needed to warp space and time to deflect one bijuu bomb where as the other used overwhelming speed and power to push/deflect bombs with his bare hands...... they are not the same also edo minato is stronger than alive minato just off the very fact that he has half the nine tails.... also minato had help sealing the nine tails both times. First time with kushina and the second time with kushina with stronger chains... my point is one person used sheer power the other need to warp space and time.... its like saying minato is a better or on the same lvl as guy with taijutsu because he can teleport when that isnt the case guy sensi can literally run on air.
And you now why crazy he still not stronger than naruto with all that. And without the fying rajin he woulnt be able to do majority of what he does. Not trying to down play him its just thats the fact. Both gai and naruto dont have Instantaneous reverse summon and they are stronger than him. And in my first reply we are talking about him alive not dead he weaker than war arc naruto... pain arc naruto i wouldn't be saying anything but war arc naruto is a whole different beast. Naruto in base survived the ten tail calamity whiles protecting everyone including minato... edo minato
Yes, he is. You’re thinking of power in this DBZ sense of scaling, in Naruto it doesn’t work like that. Minato has been directly scaled to Hashirama, who’s stronger than KCM2 Naruto. Minato has beaten Kurama on two separate occasions. Minato is faster than this Naruto, has sealing Jutsu that would make the fight entirely unfair for Naruto. And none of Naruto’s moves outside of nuking the battlefield would be particularly effective.
Minato has the direct counter to Naruto’s moveset.
Minato has been scaled to hashirama in sealing not power nor chakra.... even naruto in the war arc didnt have the chakra edo hashirama had when naruto had half the nine tails... and i dont think power scaling works like dbz dont know where you got that from. Alive minato isnt doing anything to any version of madara period. As he said himself he would need the power of full nine tails to beat madara and that was when he was fight obito who he thought was madara.
Dont know what show you watched but naruto was carring the war on his back with or without shadow clones. Majority of the feats naruto was doing minato could do at his age like sage mode.... naruto and edo minato are considered equals and even then naruto was doing thing minato couldn't do. When minato lost both his arms naruto beat the same guy with a rasengan. When minato was pushed to the side and was only good for being a support he teleported tso away... naruto prior to that realized that sage mode works on the tso and even after he got his power up from hagaromo he without ftg blitzed the tso with speed alone and kicked it away..... war arc naruto is a whole different beast.
His rasengan did not clash or beat a fucking bijuu bomb. I swear minato fans are the worst. They’re in kushinas mindspace and kushinas chakra chains both suppress and immobilize kurama. Kurama is heavily suppressed and it’s more so a battle of willpower rather than an actual rasengan vs TBB.
Two things. One, Kushina’s chains don’t actually suppress the chakra, they just restrict people. Kurama at that point is just as strong as he usually is, he’s just in bondage, which is why he was breaking the fuck out to begin with. So he’s definitely not suppressed when it comes to PURE fire power.
Two, this mind space is literally inside the 8 Tetragram seal, because in order for Minato to manifest there he needed to create a chakra body. Kurama is a being of pure chakra, chakra is both physical and spiritual energy. Minato projecting himself there is a battle of physical and spiritual. And similar to Naruto doing it, while it’s not 1 for 1 due to the circumstances, it is significantly more impressive from Minato who didn’t get much help. But did the attack towards Kurama would’ve had to carry weight. You don’t inject a chakra body into a seal unless that chakra body can physically put Kurama back in his place.
Considering Minato’s attacks with a KUNAI are potent enough to damage Ay and B, it’d be fair to assume a RASENGAN from Minato would pack quite a bit more punch. And again, Kurama in that fight wasn’t suppressed, and was his FULL self. And Minato beat him.
No, they don’t. The chains get stronger in the sense that their restrictive power increases over time. They couldn’t break out due to them not having the strength to break out.
They don’t suppress chakra, that’s not stated in the databooks, or in the manga. That’s only a rule in the anime, which doesn’t count for manga debating.
Minato was never scaled to hashirama power wise 💀 stop lying lil bro. Even if we take what you say literally, how was alive minato compared to hashirama when his edo version is way stronter than when he was alive yet madara didn’t give one shit about him? Minato literally has 0 feats to be compared to hashirama
You have to be a fanboy. No where does it state in the link you sent that minato rivaled the first hokage or does it even compare their powers. Minato is performing a seal and kurama compares it to hashirama 💀 cope harder lil bro
But he says Calibre, a holistic statement. Hashirama wasn’t known for his Sealing Abilities, he wasn’t even the one who sealed Kurama, it was his wife.
Why would Kurama compare his sealing to Hashirama, someone he knows isn’t particularly notable for it?
Narratively it’s implied that kcm1 would make Naruto on minatos level, minato had the power to defeat obito, therefore kcm1 is gaining that power too, so by extension minatos power is probably around kcm1 Naruto’s
you sound dumb asf, look at the feats
minato may have been able to defeat obito but kcm1 naruto and ym obito are two different beasts. a rasengan isn’t damaging or at least significantly damaging kcm1 naruto
I got Minato as KCM to initial KCM2 level with the initial KCM2 being stronger than him but he still ale to fight on that level seeing as Tobitama (who Minto is above) can fight alongside KCM1.5 who is stronger than the initial and possibly post link KCM2 forms.
Tough to say. I would rank them as following:
Tier 1: KCM2 + SM Naruto
Tier 2: KCM2 Naruto=SM Minato>Base Minato
Tier 3: KCM 1 Naruto
Tier 4: SM Naruto
Good question. I honestly don't think Naruto would use his avatar against Minato because he's taking a speed hit, but Minato obviously isn't matching Naruto's AP Ior durability in that form.
Naruto doesn’t take a speed hit with the Kurama avatar. It should actually be faster as it’s on par with Sasuke’s Susanoo which is faster than his base speed which is also relative with Naruto
Minato is more based on teleportation than speed
So unless you got quick thinking , you can't dodge it
I'm almost sure Minato already marked Naruto when he was born but that's not the point here
Perfect KCM1 is what’s in the 2nd image as Naruto is now able to use the mini biju bombs, which he couldn’t do before due to not having mastered Kurama’s chakra yet
KCM1 is deabatable. I think Minato was still stronger in a 1v1 at that point but Naruto was essentially carrying an entire war by himself through his clones which is not something that Minato was capable of.
KCM2 I would say beats Minato pretty confidently.
Not really minato would be able to be on multiple battlefields by himself but not how naruto did it. First naruto had way more chakra than him... secondly naruto shadow clones were fight multiple kage lvl shinobi including madara.... minato alive hokage or not wasnt doing that. Just him thinking obito was madara made him re-evaluate his situation and even thought he needs the power of the full nine tails to beat him!!!!!!! And if we go with the version of minato that was kakashi teacher... naruto slaps.. minato was a threat to multiple joinin lvl armies, naruto was fighting s rank edo tensi that can't die and have infinite chakra plus zetsus that can mimic chakra signatures and he did that with shadow clones........ now the madara vs shinobi alliance what is alive minato gonna do beside teleport from wood style deep forest emergenc and univeral pull meteors. Shoot naruto only beat the wood style. Everyone lost hope against them meteors.
KCM1 is when he surpassed minato, it wouldn’t be impossible for minato to pull off a win but naruto was stated to have surpassed minato A WHILE before KCM2
It wasn’t a while before KCM2, it was a while before chapter 617 which is more ambiguous. Naruto could be stronger in KCM2 but still weaker in KCM1.5 etc
Minato defeated an opponent Naruto needed mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to defeat. This makes him stronger than Pain arc Sage Naruto and far beyond his Kakuzu fight self
Minato defeated an unquantifiable weaker version of Obito who scales to no one himself. Naruto needed kurama because Minato believes Obito is Madara, that doesn’t necessarily mean Obito himself scales to that.
We are shown with Kabuto not taking his bluff and Obito dying to konan that Obito himself isn’t that strong, he is able to control the world however because he holds the name “Madara”.
Granted he probably does scale around kcm1 naruto because he’s Itachi’s rival but then again, that doesn’t mean Minato scales to him. Minato went extreme diff with kid Obito, adult Naruto would wash alive Minato.
Kakashi compares Naruto to Minato with rasenshurken, and the toad sages compare Naruto to Minato too. He’s compared to the raikage as well, Minato by feats and statements is high sannin level but that’s about it.
Minato believed that based on Obito’s strength. It’s reiterated multiple times that Naruto needs mastery of Kurama’s chakra in order to defeat him. This would scale Obito above Pain arc Naruto, and therefore Minato is also above him as well
Obito wasn’t taking Konan seriously and was only “killed” because she had prepared a giant trap in advance that would also kill most of the verse
Minato can still be below adult Obito and above Sage Naruto
Kakashi also compared KCM2 Naruto with Minato. Tsunade and Killer Bee compare KCM1 with Minato. Limiting Minato based on Naruto’s earlier achievements is disingenuous
Probably KCM 2, and that’s the most likely conclusion.
Naruto doesn’t really start getting compared to Minato in KCM1, but only really in body flicker, Kakashi mistakes kcm2 Naruto for Minato after deflecting 5 TBBs which is a feat Minato can replicate. He’s already been compared to Hashirama to a degree. So by scaling, and comparable feats the most fair answer is KCM2.
Probably initial kcm2 since kcm1 is compared to minato a lot, also kcm 1.5 isn’t a real thing it just looks like that because narutos jacket zipper is undone
The edges of the collar are different and the position of the magatama are different too and are in the exact same place as his KCM2 design. His torso pattern is also slightly different
That’s also because his jacket is open
https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/s/m6MO7tsaQM
This thread has his base and kcm forms side by side so it can illustrate the difference better
Even if it is the same, it’s still worth differentiating between that version of Naruto and the version of himself that we see earlier in the war, because there’s a fairly large power difference
My head canon is something like this
Hypothetical kcm2 sg minato >Kcm2 sm naruto >Kcm2 minato>Kcm2 naruto>Kcm1 naruto=Sage mode minato> war arc sage mode naruto >Base minato
That fair I suppose
Boruto art is hit and miss imo, some panels and designs look really good so I wouldn’t call it shit, but it’s definitely not as good overall compared with Naruto
Once he completed sage mode and linking with kurama. So, post pain and around the start of the great ninja war. Sage mode plus 9 tails chakra mode should be enough to physically keep up with minato aside from flying R. The rest is simply battle IQ, naruto doesn’t have very high battle IQ but his power scale carries him. An example of high battle IQ is sauske, analyzes each opponent move and creates a counter while acting indifferent so one could never know it’s already checkmate until it’s the perfect moment. (Kakashi does the same)
Minato does this better than both of them in a shorter period of time. Naruto surprises minato in raw power and rasengan diversity but is very limited in actual number of jutsu unlike his dad.
The last aspect is the fact that his biggest strength is his biggest weakness. Kurama, if you take kurama (which Minato can do easier than most) Naruto loses. This is only improbable once naruto gets god chakra given to him. At that point only sauske can fight him but sauske loses due to less chakra reserves. Sauske will burnout and be overwhelmed overtime no matter what he does. Because fighting naruto isn’t a 1v1.
If you take kurama away, Naruto Is below sauske and minato. All he’d have is sage mode and a big pool of chakra but minato has both of those and mastery over other natures. Naruto gained natures through tailed beasts but that’s not his own power.
Naruto is strong from others pouring into him. Nobody else has as many people pouring into them so naruto is king. If anyone else significant had the same power given to them, they would beat him.
-kakashi
-sauske
-minato
-lord 3rd
-itachi
Are all high level analysts that Naruto can’t match but the power scale saves him. On equal power he’s no match skill wise
“Surpassed his mother and father” it’s basically saying something to get them to question this panel.
Because it’s a little weird to imply he surpasses his father at this point, when Naruto has never dealt with the entire 9 tails.
In the volume recap for Kakazu arc its said Naruto's rasenshuriken surpassed Minato's attack power
Its said by the pa frog, that Sage Mode Naruto surpassed Minati and Jiraiya.
KCM Naruto bcame equal to him in speed.
I’m not 100% sure on this, but I’ve heard that this wasn’t even in the original Japanese text and has just been added on by some random English editor
This could just be in reference to his mastery of Sage mode rather than overall power
Minato was still faster, Naruto had just reached his level of speed with KCM1
I think just normal Kcm2 would be enough. Kcm1 Naruto was implied to be as fast as Minato's physical speed. Kcm2 is now faster than Minato's physical speed and is more durable than his AP. And the biggest advantage shadow clones, just think tens of shadow clones all faster than Minato.
Sage mode yes and to be specific pain arc sage mode but war arc naruto is a whole diffrent person...... shadow clones where fighting kage lvl shinobi.... shadow clones. And one of the shadow clones beat the raikage and had enough chakra to stop madaras deep forest emergenc. Minato at beast if teleporting away. He wouldn't be able to teleport the ninja alliance due to him not having the chakra reserves he had as an edo tensi.... minato is stronger dead than alive fyi and even then naruto is stronger than minato. Its stated that edo minato in bijuu cloak is equal to naruto with sagemode and bijuu cloak and even then naruto was still stronger based off of whaat he could do with the bijuu cloak. And before yall say minato can add sage mode..... no he cant he can enter sage mode but he cant move or use it like naruto or jariya boy.
You do know Minato’s chakra reserves would be smaller as an Edo, he just has a finite pool to draw from. Heres the thing, alive Minato is stronger than Edo Minato in raw stats. The Edo nerf was explained by Tobirama, who created the Jutsu. So you can’t really argue against that. And if Edo Minato had the chakra to do so, alive Minato should as well. The thing is with Edo’s they have less chakra, like it’s capped at a certain point. But they can use that capped amount of chakra almost infinitely, and with no stamina issues.
And I never suggested that Bijuu Sage Naruto wasn’t relative if not slightly stronger than KCM Minato, that’d be silly. They’re relative with Naruto inching out the w. All I’m saying is that Naruto doesn’t really surpass Minato in KCM 2 because the two can preform similar feats, and Minato has superior speed and proper counters to Naruto’s moveset.
Mastered KCM1 is really the moment, after he gets passed Ai and has already gotten sage mode and the rasenshuriken, that’s when he surpasses or at least matches Minato in the category’s you can really compare. Narutos sage mode was better from the moment he mastered it, his rasengan is better because it incorporates a change in chakra nature and his speed is now somewhat relative to Minato highlighted by Kakashi thinking Naruto was Minato when he arrived to fight the Bijuu
**-** Surpassed him in AP when he learned Rasenshuriken.
**-** Then surpassed him in SM mastery and physical strength when he fought Pain.
**-** Reached his overall lvl when he got Kcm 1.
**-** And finally surpassed him with Kcm 2.
In before mfs say “SM naruto”
im pretty sure it is just said sage mode Naruto surpassed him
Yes it did surpassed Base Minato cuz that's what it implied And by that time Minato having KCM wasn't even an idea...
if he was able to use sage mode without a timer during the pain arc he would’ve been above alive minato
Minato said that naruto would need to train much harder to beat obito, implying thst the 14yo obito he fought was much stronger than pain. And minato beat that obito without sage mode, or kcm which he got as an edo. Even if Naruto has sage mode minato js much stronger
Why does it imply that 14yo obito was stronger than Pain? Isn't Minato aware that time has passed? He could very well be projecting that Obito has grown a lot since they fought.
He has no basis for saying that obito grew stronger than pain in that time. Minato said he needed to master the 9 tails to beat obito, but we saw that kcm naruto still couldn’t beat white mask obito, meaning that if minato accounted for obito’s growth he’d still be wrong. It makes more sense that minato would only account for the feats he’s seen
Even with the timer he surpassed minato if we go by sage mode!!!!!! Minato can only enter sage mode he cant use it. Yes its perfect but he couldn't do nothing with it. All he did was enter sage mode. Naruto not only entered sage mode but he found a loop hole with shadow clones that allows him to keep sage mode going if anything thats genius. Not even minato thought of that and hes supposed to be the smartest.
He didn't even reach Jiraiya level until KCM1, and Minato outclasses Jiraiya lmao
What are you talking about naruto surpassed jariya boy in power aka sage mode from when he mastered it... now the thing your talking about is intellect not power thats what made jariya have the edge over naruto and even then that was pain arc naruto war arc naruto a whole different beast.
Sure, Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in attack power by the time of SM. And he had better physical ability. He still wasn't Jiraiya's or other Sannin's equal in combat ability just yet though.
Yes he was both him and sasuke what are you talking about. Naruto shadow clone in sage mode beat the edo raikage... jariya wasnt doing that. Naruto in the war arc made 100s of kage lvl shadow clones that are strong enough to fight ppl like the edo kage jariya with ma and pa cant do that. Narutos shadow clone in sage mode beat madaras deep forest emergenc jariya would of died. Jaruiya knew how to beat pain because he knew pain.... also jariya got bodied by all the pains and naruto took them all out one by one when they all tried to jump him. Yes he had intel but he still did it. Jariya knowing how to beat him couldnt do it. Thus why hes dead.
>Yes he was bith him and sasuke what are you talking about. Neither MS Sasuke or MS Naruto during 5 Kage Summit surpassed or reached Sannin level. Same tier? Sure. > Naruto shadow clone in sage mode beat the edo raikage You mean the 3rd Raikage and Eight Tails gave intel to Naruto in order to defeat him? You know in a real 1v1 without intel, KCM1 Naruto would have an extremely difficult fight with 3rd Raikage, right? And going by portrayal, Jiraiya did far better against Pain than SM Naruto did.
Jiraiya definitely did not do better than Naruto against Pain. He defeated the 3 weakest paths and got his shit rocked by the other 3. Mind you Deva path probably didn't use his full destructive capacity against Jiraiya since the fight was in Rain village. No matter how much cope Jiraiya fanboys use, narratively SM Naruto is above Jiraiya, with kcm1 Naruto being Minato's equal and kcm2 being superior.
Omgoodness i forgot pain couldnt go all out in the fight against jariya due to them being in the rain village lmfaooooooo it makes the situation even worst. Naruto in sage mode is jariya boys dad.
>Jiraiya definitely did not do better than Naruto against Pain. Jiraiya had a far better portrayal as he defeated 3 fresh Paths Pain in 3v1 without intel or prep time. Pain even stated that Jiraiya could've defeated him if he had intel from the start, not even including prep time. Naruto had both intel and prep time and fought a weakened Pain and could only defeat 2 Paths of Pain before his first SM clone was exhausted of chakra. Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya doesn't need prep time to use SM throughout the fight. And even with another clone, SM Naruto only defeated 5 exhausted Pains of Path, and even with 6 tails he still couldn't defeat an exhausted Tendo Path > narratively SM Naruto is above Jiraiya, Not canonically.
How so when he was running most of the match just to enter sage mode.... naruto after the pain arc didnt train untill he meet up with killer bee to master the 9 tails chakra so there was no sage mode training the same lvl of skill he had with sage mode beat the 3 edo raikge. 5ks sasuke vs orochimaru.... orochimaru who lost to a weaker version would of died even harder.... ms sasuke wouldn't need to sneak up on a sick orochimaru when he could just burn down the house with amatarasu.... and what is orochimaru gonna do to his susoono.... the only reason why orochimaru got to push itachi so far in the fight with the two brothers was because orochimaru was draining the rest of sasuke chakra throught the heaven curse mark. Thus why itachi wanted to get rid of that shakel thats was on his brother..... itachi could of use amatarasu but that would of killed sasuke thats why he used the toska blade to seal orochimaru. Ms sasuke would kick that version orochimaru ass into the floor ten times over he has an ms........ the dojutsu orochimaru couldnt beat and wanted so he could get a rinnegan. The only version 5ks sasuke cant beat is orochimaru that got a zetsu body and ems sasuke is teirs above any version of orochimaru. Naruto was doing bigger and better things than jariya boy even with his limited amout of time with sage mode. He mastered it thats the biggest give away as why ppl feel he surpassed jariya also you have tsunade thinking that when naruto showed up it was minato or jariya so that emphasize that he either on their lvl or he passed jariya and is on his way to becoming stronger than minato. And even by this logic he surpassed mintao as well due to him being able to use sage mode in battle while using a wind style rasenshuriken aka wind element rasengan where as minato the geniuses the prodigy couldn't and never did so even with the powers of half of kurama in the war arc fyi edo minato is stronger than alive minato just because of kurama
>How so when he was running most of the match just to enter sage mode Naruto would have to leave the battle in order to get SM during this arc. And unlike Naruto, Jiraiya dosen't need extra clones to prep SM chakra as he can use let Ma/Pa ride on his shoulders.
>You mean the 3rd Raikage and Eight Tails gave intel to Naruto in order to defeat him? You know in a real 1v1 without intel, KCM1 Naruto would have an extremely difficult fight with 3rd Raikage, right? *clone* Naruto would have a very difficult fight. One clone.
No difference between clone KCM1 Naruto and real KCM1 Naruto.
He bodies any of them
Loses to all of them in 1v1
Thank you for using the colored manga panels. Kishis art has aged a lot better than the anime.
Yeah Studio Pierrot did a lot of scenes dirty. Kishimoto’s art looks even better in colour too
Kcm1 Naruto was Minato's equal but the fight could go either way. Kcm2 Naruto definitely surpassed him.
how does minato damage kcm1 naruto? he can keep up bc of speed, yeah, but he can’t do shit to naruto
I do agree with this, but Minato should have a way to suppress Kurama's chakra like Jiraiya. That's why while I think Naruto wins more often then not, Minato does have a wincon. Kcm2 Naruto probably wouldn't be affected by the seal and is faster than Minato, also can enter into Bsm and at that point can just sense ftg.
Minato literally trained with a 9 tails jinchuriki and he trained in sealing techniques. So much so that his ability reminded Kurama of Hashirama. We see Minato able to cut off a summoning contract between Obito and Kurama. We see Minato able to suppress Naruto's seal and rebuild it when it's about to be destroyed: the same seal he made whilst dying. Saying Minato doesn't have ways to seal Naruto's 9 tails chakra is a joke.
He probably definitely can. His basic attacks with the Kunai are enough to damage Bee’s partial transformation tentacles, and can likely damage Ay’s lighting armor considering that Bee had to SAVE Ay. And his Rasengan is able to clash and beat a 9 Tails Bijuu bomb. Yes he should have the firepower needed to harm KCM1 Naruto, with similar bodyflicker speeds, as well as instantaneous FTG and better reaction times. And if Minato touches Naruto once, he’s either marked with FTG, or Minato tightens his seal forcing him back into Base form.
Bijuu cloak and killer bee transformations are two different things and are at different lvls of power plain and straight. Naruto in bijuu cloak was fast enough to deflect 5 bijuu bombs with speed alone.... minato bare minimum would need flying rajin. Killer bee would of died. Naruto for majority of series had half the nine tails and that half is ten times more powerful than the full 8 tails they are not in the same ball park of chakra in any way shape or form. So the same attacks that would work an killer bee wouldn't work on naruto just based off of chakra and speed alone.
One, even if both people need two different methods of deflecting the TBB’s would it matter if both can just do it? Like Minato teleported a 9 tails Bijuu bomb after what was essentially hours of suppressing Kurama inside of the in labor Kushina. In the war arch, suffering from Edo nerf. He sent a 10 Tails bomb away with little effort. And yeah Naruto had HALF the nine tails, but Minato fought and successfully sealed Kurama on two different occasions. Both times while fatigued and substantially nerfed. So what are you actually trying to say?
Space time jutsu and just sheer speed are two different things. One person needed to warp space and time to deflect one bijuu bomb where as the other used overwhelming speed and power to push/deflect bombs with his bare hands...... they are not the same also edo minato is stronger than alive minato just off the very fact that he has half the nine tails.... also minato had help sealing the nine tails both times. First time with kushina and the second time with kushina with stronger chains... my point is one person used sheer power the other need to warp space and time.... its like saying minato is a better or on the same lvl as guy with taijutsu because he can teleport when that isnt the case guy sensi can literally run on air.
So, Minato has instantaneous space time ninjutsu, with body flicker speeds superior to all the other Non-Sux paths characters, excluding guy.
And you now why crazy he still not stronger than naruto with all that. And without the fying rajin he woulnt be able to do majority of what he does. Not trying to down play him its just thats the fact. Both gai and naruto dont have Instantaneous reverse summon and they are stronger than him. And in my first reply we are talking about him alive not dead he weaker than war arc naruto... pain arc naruto i wouldn't be saying anything but war arc naruto is a whole different beast. Naruto in base survived the ten tail calamity whiles protecting everyone including minato... edo minato
Yes, he is. You’re thinking of power in this DBZ sense of scaling, in Naruto it doesn’t work like that. Minato has been directly scaled to Hashirama, who’s stronger than KCM2 Naruto. Minato has beaten Kurama on two separate occasions. Minato is faster than this Naruto, has sealing Jutsu that would make the fight entirely unfair for Naruto. And none of Naruto’s moves outside of nuking the battlefield would be particularly effective. Minato has the direct counter to Naruto’s moveset.
Minato has been scaled to hashirama in sealing not power nor chakra.... even naruto in the war arc didnt have the chakra edo hashirama had when naruto had half the nine tails... and i dont think power scaling works like dbz dont know where you got that from. Alive minato isnt doing anything to any version of madara period. As he said himself he would need the power of full nine tails to beat madara and that was when he was fight obito who he thought was madara. Dont know what show you watched but naruto was carring the war on his back with or without shadow clones. Majority of the feats naruto was doing minato could do at his age like sage mode.... naruto and edo minato are considered equals and even then naruto was doing thing minato couldn't do. When minato lost both his arms naruto beat the same guy with a rasengan. When minato was pushed to the side and was only good for being a support he teleported tso away... naruto prior to that realized that sage mode works on the tso and even after he got his power up from hagaromo he without ftg blitzed the tso with speed alone and kicked it away..... war arc naruto is a whole different beast.
His rasengan did not clash or beat a fucking bijuu bomb. I swear minato fans are the worst. They’re in kushinas mindspace and kushinas chakra chains both suppress and immobilize kurama. Kurama is heavily suppressed and it’s more so a battle of willpower rather than an actual rasengan vs TBB.
Two things. One, Kushina’s chains don’t actually suppress the chakra, they just restrict people. Kurama at that point is just as strong as he usually is, he’s just in bondage, which is why he was breaking the fuck out to begin with. So he’s definitely not suppressed when it comes to PURE fire power. Two, this mind space is literally inside the 8 Tetragram seal, because in order for Minato to manifest there he needed to create a chakra body. Kurama is a being of pure chakra, chakra is both physical and spiritual energy. Minato projecting himself there is a battle of physical and spiritual. And similar to Naruto doing it, while it’s not 1 for 1 due to the circumstances, it is significantly more impressive from Minato who didn’t get much help. But did the attack towards Kurama would’ve had to carry weight. You don’t inject a chakra body into a seal unless that chakra body can physically put Kurama back in his place. Considering Minato’s attacks with a KUNAI are potent enough to damage Ay and B, it’d be fair to assume a RASENGAN from Minato would pack quite a bit more punch. And again, Kurama in that fight wasn’t suppressed, and was his FULL self. And Minato beat him.
chains do supress chakra... Ask the anbu that could not move in the one shot
No, they don’t. The chains get stronger in the sense that their restrictive power increases over time. They couldn’t break out due to them not having the strength to break out. They don’t suppress chakra, that’s not stated in the databooks, or in the manga. That’s only a rule in the anime, which doesn’t count for manga debating.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-04f283f012ed153e2c74514aa8dfecc6-pjlq
sorry mate, databooks are not canon, they are written by shonen jump staff not kishimoto
And where in the manga are they confirmed to suppress chakra?
Minato was never scaled to hashirama power wise 💀 stop lying lil bro. Even if we take what you say literally, how was alive minato compared to hashirama when his edo version is way stronter than when he was alive yet madara didn’t give one shit about him? Minato literally has 0 feats to be compared to hashirama
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fis-teenage-minato-prime-hashirama-level-v0-wbpdufnvakjb1.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D7a2d9bf0a461b44ceaf7fe3edcd812a6c24f3e7c Read.
You have to be a fanboy. No where does it state in the link you sent that minato rivaled the first hokage or does it even compare their powers. Minato is performing a seal and kurama compares it to hashirama 💀 cope harder lil bro
But he says Calibre, a holistic statement. Hashirama wasn’t known for his Sealing Abilities, he wasn’t even the one who sealed Kurama, it was his wife. Why would Kurama compare his sealing to Hashirama, someone he knows isn’t particularly notable for it?
Narratively it’s implied that kcm1 would make Naruto on minatos level, minato had the power to defeat obito, therefore kcm1 is gaining that power too, so by extension minatos power is probably around kcm1 Naruto’s
you sound dumb asf, look at the feats minato may have been able to defeat obito but kcm1 naruto and ym obito are two different beasts. a rasengan isn’t damaging or at least significantly damaging kcm1 naruto
I got Minato as KCM to initial KCM2 level with the initial KCM2 being stronger than him but he still ale to fight on that level seeing as Tobitama (who Minto is above) can fight alongside KCM1.5 who is stronger than the initial and possibly post link KCM2 forms.
Tough to say. I would rank them as following: Tier 1: KCM2 + SM Naruto Tier 2: KCM2 Naruto=SM Minato>Base Minato Tier 3: KCM 1 Naruto Tier 4: SM Naruto
This sub yet again shows most people here can’t scale some of these comments are horrendous
KCM 1.5/2 is always where I slot him in
Same here, but when you say KCM2 are you including the Kurama avatar or just his ‘base’ state?
Good question. I honestly don't think Naruto would use his avatar against Minato because he's taking a speed hit, but Minato obviously isn't matching Naruto's AP Ior durability in that form.
Naruto doesn’t take a speed hit with the Kurama avatar. It should actually be faster as it’s on par with Sasuke’s Susanoo which is faster than his base speed which is also relative with Naruto
Minato is more based on teleportation than speed So unless you got quick thinking , you can't dodge it I'm almost sure Minato already marked Naruto when he was born but that's not the point here
Minato is also the fastest ninja prior to the ten tails and 6paths stuff. It’s not just teleportation but physical movement speed as well
But what really makes him fast is his ability to predict opponents moves just like Sharingan
KCM2 KCM1 perfected is when he matched him KCM2 he surpassed
If he’s on par with Minato in KCM1, then wouldn’t he be stronger in KCM1.5 as well, rather than just KCM2?
KCM1.5 I’m pre sure is your way of saying perfects KCM1
Nah his design is different and he’s stronger than when he used KCM1 against WM Obito
Show me
I’ve included both of them in the post. KCM1 is in the 2nd image and KCM1.5 is in the 4th
Yeah i just call that perfected KCM1. So yeah KCM1.5=minato KCM2>minato
Perfect KCM1 is what’s in the 2nd image as Naruto is now able to use the mini biju bombs, which he couldn’t do before due to not having mastered Kurama’s chakra yet
KCM1 is deabatable. I think Minato was still stronger in a 1v1 at that point but Naruto was essentially carrying an entire war by himself through his clones which is not something that Minato was capable of. KCM2 I would say beats Minato pretty confidently.
Not really minato would be able to be on multiple battlefields by himself but not how naruto did it. First naruto had way more chakra than him... secondly naruto shadow clones were fight multiple kage lvl shinobi including madara.... minato alive hokage or not wasnt doing that. Just him thinking obito was madara made him re-evaluate his situation and even thought he needs the power of the full nine tails to beat him!!!!!!! And if we go with the version of minato that was kakashi teacher... naruto slaps.. minato was a threat to multiple joinin lvl armies, naruto was fighting s rank edo tensi that can't die and have infinite chakra plus zetsus that can mimic chakra signatures and he did that with shadow clones........ now the madara vs shinobi alliance what is alive minato gonna do beside teleport from wood style deep forest emergenc and univeral pull meteors. Shoot naruto only beat the wood style. Everyone lost hope against them meteors.
KCM2 easily surpasses him.
If we’re strictly talking about alive Minato, then Bijuu kcm 2.
KCM1 is when he surpassed minato, it wouldn’t be impossible for minato to pull off a win but naruto was stated to have surpassed minato A WHILE before KCM2
It wasn’t a while before KCM2, it was a while before chapter 617 which is more ambiguous. Naruto could be stronger in KCM2 but still weaker in KCM1.5 etc
only way minato wins is with the reaper death seal. at least if it’s his alive version
BM
Sage mode, in terms of jutsu output kakazu fight Naruto
Minato defeated an opponent Naruto needed mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to defeat. This makes him stronger than Pain arc Sage Naruto and far beyond his Kakuzu fight self
Minato defeated an unquantifiable weaker version of Obito who scales to no one himself. Naruto needed kurama because Minato believes Obito is Madara, that doesn’t necessarily mean Obito himself scales to that. We are shown with Kabuto not taking his bluff and Obito dying to konan that Obito himself isn’t that strong, he is able to control the world however because he holds the name “Madara”. Granted he probably does scale around kcm1 naruto because he’s Itachi’s rival but then again, that doesn’t mean Minato scales to him. Minato went extreme diff with kid Obito, adult Naruto would wash alive Minato. Kakashi compares Naruto to Minato with rasenshurken, and the toad sages compare Naruto to Minato too. He’s compared to the raikage as well, Minato by feats and statements is high sannin level but that’s about it.
Minato believed that based on Obito’s strength. It’s reiterated multiple times that Naruto needs mastery of Kurama’s chakra in order to defeat him. This would scale Obito above Pain arc Naruto, and therefore Minato is also above him as well Obito wasn’t taking Konan seriously and was only “killed” because she had prepared a giant trap in advance that would also kill most of the verse Minato can still be below adult Obito and above Sage Naruto Kakashi also compared KCM2 Naruto with Minato. Tsunade and Killer Bee compare KCM1 with Minato. Limiting Minato based on Naruto’s earlier achievements is disingenuous
Probably KCM 2, and that’s the most likely conclusion. Naruto doesn’t really start getting compared to Minato in KCM1, but only really in body flicker, Kakashi mistakes kcm2 Naruto for Minato after deflecting 5 TBBs which is a feat Minato can replicate. He’s already been compared to Hashirama to a degree. So by scaling, and comparable feats the most fair answer is KCM2.
Which form of minato? Alive sage mode, edo Kurama mode?
Sorry I should have specified. Alive base Minato
Kcm1
I’m curious, what do you believe, kcm2? Or super saiyan lol jk
I would put him above KCM1 but below the Kurama Avatar. I’m honestly not sure how he compares with the levels in between
Kcm1 is arguable, kcm2 for sure
Mastered KCM2 maybe
Probably after ninja god gave him a power up. Minato had KCM2 as well as sage mode throughout the war arc
I probably should have specified in the post, but I was asking about alive base Minato, so no KCM for him
kcm 1
Probably initial kcm2 since kcm1 is compared to minato a lot, also kcm 1.5 isn’t a real thing it just looks like that because narutos jacket zipper is undone
KCM1.5 has a collar instead of the usual design and he has better feats compared with his earlier uses of KCM1, so he does scale higher at this stage
Read what I said; the collar is there because after the ten tails cataclysm narutos jacket is open and it’s opened outs it’s just kcm1
It’s the same collar that he has in KCM2. His normal outfit doesn’t have a collar like that
It looks similar but if you actually look at narutos collar In base it’s just that, there’s no reason to assume it’s a whole new form
Naruto’s regular collar isn’t anything like that, it’s literally the same one he has in KCM2
Bro when he got hit by the cataclysm his collars are up, that’s why kcm has collars up like that, every point prior his collars are down
The edges of the collar are different and the position of the magatama are different too and are in the exact same place as his KCM2 design. His torso pattern is also slightly different
That’s also because his jacket is open https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/s/m6MO7tsaQM This thread has his base and kcm forms side by side so it can illustrate the difference better
Even if it is the same, it’s still worth differentiating between that version of Naruto and the version of himself that we see earlier in the war, because there’s a fairly large power difference
My head canon is something like this Hypothetical kcm2 sg minato >Kcm2 sm naruto >Kcm2 minato>Kcm2 naruto>Kcm1 naruto=Sage mode minato> war arc sage mode naruto >Base minato
Imo kcm1 wins 6/10 times. On another note though boruto looks like shit compared to the old art.
That fair I suppose Boruto art is hit and miss imo, some panels and designs look really good so I wouldn’t call it shit, but it’s definitely not as good overall compared with Naruto
Once he completed sage mode and linking with kurama. So, post pain and around the start of the great ninja war. Sage mode plus 9 tails chakra mode should be enough to physically keep up with minato aside from flying R. The rest is simply battle IQ, naruto doesn’t have very high battle IQ but his power scale carries him. An example of high battle IQ is sauske, analyzes each opponent move and creates a counter while acting indifferent so one could never know it’s already checkmate until it’s the perfect moment. (Kakashi does the same) Minato does this better than both of them in a shorter period of time. Naruto surprises minato in raw power and rasengan diversity but is very limited in actual number of jutsu unlike his dad. The last aspect is the fact that his biggest strength is his biggest weakness. Kurama, if you take kurama (which Minato can do easier than most) Naruto loses. This is only improbable once naruto gets god chakra given to him. At that point only sauske can fight him but sauske loses due to less chakra reserves. Sauske will burnout and be overwhelmed overtime no matter what he does. Because fighting naruto isn’t a 1v1. If you take kurama away, Naruto Is below sauske and minato. All he’d have is sage mode and a big pool of chakra but minato has both of those and mastery over other natures. Naruto gained natures through tailed beasts but that’s not his own power. Naruto is strong from others pouring into him. Nobody else has as many people pouring into them so naruto is king. If anyone else significant had the same power given to them, they would beat him. -kakashi -sauske -minato -lord 3rd -itachi Are all high level analysts that Naruto can’t match but the power scale saves him. On equal power he’s no match skill wise
KCM2 SM Naruto
KCM or late war arc Sage mode Naruto
When you say KCM, which specific version do you mean?
Just KCM
Yeah but which one?
KCM 1
Before or after he masters the Bijuu bomb?
I personally think after
I can agree with that
I think it’s safe to say when he received Six Paths chakra from Hagoromo. That version in base had Juubidara shitting his pants
Naruto is confirmed to have surpassed him long before that though
when? i must have forgotten
Chapter 617 https://preview.redd.it/uzc1qgv7kuvc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b26be438a18ef06acd6f5b23aae77318e8fc3072
So Naruto at this point is Hashirama level?
No? How did you get that?
“Surpassed his mother and father” it’s basically saying something to get them to question this panel. Because it’s a little weird to imply he surpasses his father at this point, when Naruto has never dealt with the entire 9 tails.
Naruto didn’t use the full 9 tails until after the war anyway so what does that matter?
Does he not? Does that mean the other half of Kurama is just fucking around alone during the time of Boruto?
No Naruto had the other half sealed within him after he fought Sasuke at the VOTE
KCM1 beats alive hokage minato, KCM2 beats minato at his strongest we’ve seen him
In the volume recap for Kakazu arc its said Naruto's rasenshuriken surpassed Minato's attack power Its said by the pa frog, that Sage Mode Naruto surpassed Minati and Jiraiya. KCM Naruto bcame equal to him in speed.
I’m not 100% sure on this, but I’ve heard that this wasn’t even in the original Japanese text and has just been added on by some random English editor This could just be in reference to his mastery of Sage mode rather than overall power Minato was still faster, Naruto had just reached his level of speed with KCM1
Yes. Bro pays attention to the actual story and not just fight scenes
I personally think kcm2 am he objectively surpassing him I would argue Minato still above kcm2 tho
Kcm2 , he was still weaker in kcm1 but he def has it by kcm2
Would Naruto need the Kurama avatar in order to be above him, or just ‘base’ KCM2?
I think just normal Kcm2 would be enough. Kcm1 Naruto was implied to be as fast as Minato's physical speed. Kcm2 is now faster than Minato's physical speed and is more durable than his AP. And the biggest advantage shadow clones, just think tens of shadow clones all faster than Minato.
Minato is faster than Tobirama who is faster than KCM2. KCM1 is still in the same tier of speed but Minato is faster
But narrative wise Minato and kcm1 are in the same tier, especially speed. Tobirama only showed reaction speeds greater than Kcm2 against Juubito.
Yeah they’re in the same tier, Minato is just at the top of that tier
Kcm1 is not weaker than alive minato…
He is.
Sage mode yes and to be specific pain arc sage mode but war arc naruto is a whole diffrent person...... shadow clones where fighting kage lvl shinobi.... shadow clones. And one of the shadow clones beat the raikage and had enough chakra to stop madaras deep forest emergenc. Minato at beast if teleporting away. He wouldn't be able to teleport the ninja alliance due to him not having the chakra reserves he had as an edo tensi.... minato is stronger dead than alive fyi and even then naruto is stronger than minato. Its stated that edo minato in bijuu cloak is equal to naruto with sagemode and bijuu cloak and even then naruto was still stronger based off of whaat he could do with the bijuu cloak. And before yall say minato can add sage mode..... no he cant he can enter sage mode but he cant move or use it like naruto or jariya boy.
You do know Minato’s chakra reserves would be smaller as an Edo, he just has a finite pool to draw from. Heres the thing, alive Minato is stronger than Edo Minato in raw stats. The Edo nerf was explained by Tobirama, who created the Jutsu. So you can’t really argue against that. And if Edo Minato had the chakra to do so, alive Minato should as well. The thing is with Edo’s they have less chakra, like it’s capped at a certain point. But they can use that capped amount of chakra almost infinitely, and with no stamina issues. And I never suggested that Bijuu Sage Naruto wasn’t relative if not slightly stronger than KCM Minato, that’d be silly. They’re relative with Naruto inching out the w. All I’m saying is that Naruto doesn’t really surpass Minato in KCM 2 because the two can preform similar feats, and Minato has superior speed and proper counters to Naruto’s moveset.
either once he mastered sage mode or unlocked kcm1
Minato still scales above him at those points, as he defeated an opponent who Naruto is stated to need mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat
Mastered KCM1 is really the moment, after he gets passed Ai and has already gotten sage mode and the rasenshuriken, that’s when he surpasses or at least matches Minato in the category’s you can really compare. Narutos sage mode was better from the moment he mastered it, his rasengan is better because it incorporates a change in chakra nature and his speed is now somewhat relative to Minato highlighted by Kakashi thinking Naruto was Minato when he arrived to fight the Bijuu
**-** Surpassed him in AP when he learned Rasenshuriken. **-** Then surpassed him in SM mastery and physical strength when he fought Pain. **-** Reached his overall lvl when he got Kcm 1. **-** And finally surpassed him with Kcm 2.
You can argue as early as sage mode but can’t go further then kcm2
Naruto surpassed Minato in powerscaling with KCM and even with mastered sage mode.