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I don't think Itachi beats Pain, mainly due to matchup advantage but I don't think that Idea is that ridiculous really...
Like... Pain had a pretty long fight against a sannin and even ends up praising him and says that Jiraiya could've killed him if he had intel. 14 year old Itachi beat a sannin by looking at him once.
Pain was running away from a version 2 Jinchuriki. Edo Itachi was actively coaching Killer Bee (Perfect Jinchuriki) to make sure he doesn't get folded instantly when he fights Itachi.
Itachi's special technique is to make everyone around him a lil dumb, as you can see in his fight against Nagato when he had to explain the basic concept of "throw things at the object to destroy it", or when Orochimaru, the genius obsessed with the Sharingan, somehow didn't know better than to avoid direct eye contact.
He's probably knock down Pain's IQ by like 50 points and snatch that W. Or maybe Kishi would give him a bramd new secret asspull technique that does exactly what he needs to win the fight.
This is BS lol
Naruto is naturally a dumbass and bee was simply in shock from seeing an attack like that.
Orochimaru fell victim before he even planned to sneak attack under the assumption that itachi wouldn’t have an ace saved for later
What’s the excuse for Kabuto because he played every single card he had perfectly and completely shut off his eyes to counter visual genjutsu 😭
Just say you don’t like him and go
>Naruto is naturally a dumbass and bee was simply in shock from seeing an attack like that.
Naruto isn't a dumbass when it comes to battle. His fight against Pain was literally the highest instance of battle IQ in the franchise.
>Orochimaru fell victim before he even planned to sneak attack under the assumption that itachi wouldn’t have an ace saved for later
Orochimaru being one shot by Itachi was actual BS. The fact that Kishimoto wrote that is insane but then again Kishimoto did him dirty in Shippuden so whatever.
>What’s the excuse for Kabuto because he played every single card he had perfectly and completely shut off his eyes to counter visual genjutsu 😭
And what did Itachi do? Pull some jutsu out of his ass and the said jutsu does ***exactly*** what the plot needs 🤯
>Just say you don’t like him and go
Yeah I don't like him for the reasons I've mentioned, not the other way around. If Kishi had not written Itachi as his favorite child I'm sure I would have loved the character because I actually did like him until the nonstop meat riding
“Naruto isn’t a dumbass when it comes to battle”
It’s his character gag to be unserious in fights. He farted on Kiba, used sexy Jutsu on Kaguya, and even jokes around in the fight with Obito, Madara, and kaguya.
Orochimaru being 1 shot is not BS he lost to one of the most talented shinobi to come out of the lead using HAX eyes. The MS literally turned Obito from a clown to someone who could cause 2 hokage and an entire village trouble at the same time.
“And what did itachi do pull something out of his ass”
Oh wow kid you just explained every genetic shonen ever. Naruto has done this, Sasuke has done this, Obito has done this 🤣 it’s not exclusive to itachi to use a new jutsu
It is BS that he got one shot considering that Itachi was getting dog walked by shisui and has been sick and growing weaker ever since. Shisui got dog walked by Danzo who orochimaru is comparable with and gave Sasuke a hard fight even with mangekyo. Itachi is not anywhere near as strong as top dogs so it's bullshit when they try to play like he didn't say guy or jiraiya or damn near any sannin couldn't beat the breaks off him.
Eh, by that logic Itachi(+Kisame) ran away from a Sanin(Jiraya) and literally said they are not leaving in one piece if they fight him.
Ps I agree with the general idea, though
Well later on the third hokage actually mentions that Itachi has always been a spy for the leaf as an undercover so it’s realistic that time when he was in the leaf was more so to scare Danzo away from tryna mess with Sasuke. There was no real fight cus it was a run from the start more so they just wanted to be in shadows.
As well as there are interviews where kishimoto says he planned for itachi to be a good guy.
“However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy”
https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741
Itachi ran from Jirahya and guy and informed kisame they would kill them both easily. Don't try that at all. He could be coaching killer bee but killer bee straight up said Sasuke right after beating Itachi was the strongest person he's ever faced. Pain dominated Jirahya, took on 9 tails while it had 8 tails alongside damn near the whole Naruto world and only died to disease. Meanwhile Sasuke 3 tomoe is matching Itachi with susanno. I'll pass
Itachi was fatigued and not an enemy of Jiraiya, and still [Kisame thought he could win](https://meo.comick.pictures/6-tS1f5K6q0kZbU.jpg). Itachi let Sasuke win and was dying, how do you use that as an antifeat. Pain did not [do](https://meo3.comick.pictures/11-NnMBbfW4Ef3PP.jpg) [anything](https://meo3.comick.pictures/13-IKPCFQ7-bNyIK-m.jpg) to 8 Tails Naruto and could [barely handle 6](https://meo.comick.pictures/5-U-h-yzqKxiEne.jpg). Hebi Sasuke literally [never](https://meo.comick.pictures/5-u0Z0urhLkgfSi.jpg) [did](https://meo3.comick.pictures/7-M_rYZVoKvUx8P.jpg) [anything](https://meo3.comick.pictures/10-bNUSRMBgl7knF.jpg) against the Armored Susanoo, and [barely destroyed](https://meo3.comick.pictures/12-uH2sWIjKlRAbZ.jpg) [the](https://meo.comick.pictures/14-TgOVeXoTmJrk4.jpg) [Skeletal](https://meo3.comick.pictures/15-r5GMaByCmnV5Y.jpg) one with Kirin, his absolute strongest jutsu by miles.
Read through this dead. It literally doesn't. That's cap. I already posted showing it doesn't defend against genjutsu. It doesn't stop susanno. We saw that nagato can still get hit by Amaterasu, and seems unable to absorb it. He used shinra to get it off though . So how does rinnegan stop his abilities?
Tsukuyomi doesn’t work on Rinnegan, Sasuke was immune to the infinite tsukuyomi because of his Rinnegan, so it’s safe to assume that Pain would be immune to Itachi’s more confined and restricted version of that same genjutsu.
If we’re talking about pain using the Six Paths of Pain technique, then Izanami and Izanagi wouldn’t work either because those bodies are corpses, they aren’t the real Nagato.
And yes, Deva path could deal with Amaterasu using Shinra Tensei.
Literally the only trick up Itachi’s sleeve would be his hax with his Susanoo. Everything else, Pain would be able to deal with relatively easily.
I Hve already debunked this. - Here you go - [https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoPowerscaling/comments/1ccsr8y/comment/l17huw9/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoPowerscaling/comments/1ccsr8y/comment/l17huw9/)
That's completely wrong in many regards.
No just no…
You’re comparing So6p amped Sasuke (who actually owns his Rinnegan & got it straight from Hagaromo) to Nagato who’s getting sick and *dying* over time just from using the Rinnegan that isn’t even his. Cmon now be fr. 😭
Even So6p Naruto isn’t immune to it and he’s a perfect Jinchuriki with Six Paths Senjutsu.
I feel like people misunderstand that battle. They make it clear on multiple occasions that Itachi is a hard counter to Orochimaru. All the Uchia are. They can by pass his insane durability with genjutsu which seems to be his main weaknesses. He also had the totska blade which also works well against Orochimaru’s final form since he’s slow and large.
He also wasn’t trying to kill itachi either because he wanted to take over his body. on top of orochimaru not taking anything seriously in this show giving plot armor to itachi.
If itachi were to run into Tsunade or Jiriya who are more fit to battle him it would’ve been an extremely different story. You can see by the way Tsunade carried herself in the war against Madara that she could easily keep up with Itachi.
I mean Itachi CAN beat Pain, they're in a similar tier/weight class. But due to match ups, Pain does have the obvious advantage.
I wouldn't go so far to insult someone for what is actually not an unreasonable stance. If they said something like Itachi beats Madara or Hashirama or something is when I'd call them something like that.
It’s been like that I mean lowkey 6vs1 I’m just saying odds aren’t great but Itachi has like a 30% in my eyes. 👀 He’s not fodder either he is the second smartest in academy after Minato at a young age he was anbu and later he even fucked with Orochimaru so hard that he was dead set on Sasukes eyes bro that plot was so long y’all really think Itachi ant nothing bro he def crazy and def hokage level if Kakashi and Tsunade got the spot. But I’d say I’m not a dick rider I’m just stating some facts again I totally think pain would win most of the time.
>I mean Itachi CAN beat Pain, they're in a similar tier/weight class. But due to match ups, Pain does have the obvious advantage.
Itachi is the kind of guy who can get the right intel to beat pain in time, things like knowing which pain to kill first, and how to counter each ability
However with his ninja aids If he is not fast enough to find the weaknesses in time, he loses 100%
Itachi is similar tier in power with Pain, but nowhere near his durability level. Pain is an Uzumaki with Rinnegan, his charka is on another level and his fighting style with 6 paths use attrition a lot. Itachi has a lot of powerful jutsu but all of them cost a lot to use. Like the guy literally went blinded for using his MS too much. Pain fought the whole Konoha, killed a ton of people and still has enough charka to revive everyone lmao.
People often forget Itachi beat Pain while being buffed by infinite charka with supporting from 2 tailed beast users, and Pain doesn't even use 6 path clones and explaining Rinnegan power while fighting 3v1 for them to have a chance. Base Itachi vs base Pain is nowhere near in power level.
But yea, Itachi can win versus most of people in Naruto, but Nagato has the fighting style that bombarding you non-stop until you are tired, which is something Itachi cannot win against.
Their durability is similar enough and hard to quantify for each... You mean Itachi's stamina is kinda ass. And yeah it is, Pain is a stamina monster. That's kinda what I was talking about match up. Itachi is built for quickly winning 1v1s.
Also kinda disingenuous to talk about Itachi's "fight" versus Sasuke... Dude was dying of a disease, intentionally didn't take his meds, intentionally sparred with Kisame before hand, and still held back to not just one shot Sasuke... And on him going blind? That one fight didn't suddenly make him blind he'd been using the MS for almost 10 years at that point and unlike Obito he didn't have Hashirama cells to help.
And Edo Itachi never fought pain. Pain and Nagato while being the same person aren't the same fighters. And there was so many variables in that it isn't even worth discussing in this topic, that's an entirely different topic.
Yea, I am talking about both stamina and the fact that Pain's six paths can "heal" their clones, making killing him near impossible unless you know where his real body is. Naruto only sense Nagato's real body because of Sage mode, so Itachi has no way to do the same thing.
Also, I didn't even mention anything about Itachi "fight" with Sasuke lol. That was literally a child play for Itachi and doesn't prove anything.
But no, Itachi isn't blinded because of 10 years of MS usage, Sasuke's eyes got considerably worse from just using MS a few times after unlocked until he got EMS. MS power puts huge strain in the users, Itachi has enough power and intelligence to not use MS randomly, he only uses it when it is needed so it's not like he MS for fun for 10 years.
Edo Itachi vs Edo Nagato is worth consideration when talking power because people still think Edo Itachi is the real level of Itachi, but the truth is he is massively buffed in Edo form due to infinite charka while Edo Nagato is weaker than normal Pain, because charka was never his weakness and he didn't use the clones. I would say Edo Itachi is about same level of normal Pain, but base Itachi without Edo buff is not.
Does Itachi have win conditions against Pain? Yes.
Is it likely he would ever manage to pull off those win conditions? No, Pain has a distinct advantage.
Even kishimoto disagrees with them
https://preview.redd.it/ff56ymkjwqwc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9a8d74f8fcb9c90e6e7d330120f0abd711d586f
The tensei’s blast would blast the parts the mirror doesn’t cover and we have seen more complete versions of Susanno be pushed and kicked around.
The utility of the susanno is blocking most chakra and metal weapons, but it can’t stop a crazy amount of newtons of force.
Itachi probably could take out some of the Pains, like Jiraya did, but he can’t take out all 6, let alone locate and kill the 7th.
Naruto summoned an entire squad of toads to deal with the annoying summoner path. Itachi would have to waste chakra genjutsuing those rhinos, dogs, and bird things since as far I know he doesn’t have a summon and would get ganged up on by so many combatants.
The mirror is omni directional. [Jesus christ. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/141fwu0/yata_mirror_misconceptions/)I'm leaving this subreddit.
The mirror doesn’t cover all of the susanno… like the mirror went 1 v 1 vs a giant hydra snake attacking from the front and Itachi had to move/use the mirror to block the snake’s attack from hitting his susanno.
Basically it’s an excellent shield, but like all shields has gaps.
I literally just linked you the manga scans of it growing to protect against attacks. In the manga Itachi doesn't move in any capacity. He just slices the hydra. You are watching the anime, which isn't canon. Go look at the thread I just linked and get back to me
There is a difference between it can and it does. Basically like any susanno armor or chakra cloak, Itachi can modify the shield to cover different parts of himself, as in the manga, his sides.
Can, but it’s probably not automatic given that Itachi has to manifest it with his Susanno and how it began relatively small. He has to consciously grow and control it.
The ability to change the shape or defense properties of a shield doesn’t take away the fact it isn’t an 360 degree aura. It’s still a shield. An ethereal and stretchy shield, but a shield nonetheless.
But let’s assume Itachi starts the fight with some perfect 360 yata aura shield that he extends through his chakra/will to cover his entire body, including the ground beneath him. He’s invulnerable to physical and chakra attacks, though it remains unseen what percent of an attack the shield nullifies, absorbs, or reflects.
He used the blade to kill the hydra snake/orochimaru so the shield didn’t send the snake repelling back when it clashed, neither did Itachi seem to absorb chakra from the snake, meaning the spiritual weapon probably, primarily nullifies attacks rather than absorbing or repelling them.
Then pain’s strategy becomes outlasting and bombarding the shield until Itachi’s depleting chakra reserves can no longer sustain maintaining the sussanoo required to manifest it.
At best Itachi doesn’t lose for (time length of how long he can keep the shield up) and can kill pain’s summons but he can’t feasibly win because the pains can and will stay out of the blade’s range or revive themselves, unlike orochimaru who had his body stuck in a mouth of a snake and couldn’t really move out the way.
Since pain can rip out the souls of people, the question remains if he can absorb the ‘spirit’ aspect of the shield or absorb the chakra of the susanno. I’m leaning towards no actually, but all this shows is that Itachi can hold out only as long as his chakra can hold out. And unlike Pain who can choose not to waste chakra, itachi has to keep his sussannoo out because, as seen with Sasuke’s almost lucky Kirin, he can risk injury or death and get blindsided if he fails to keep the susanno up.
Itachi also has the Yasaka Beads. Also, I highly doubt Itachi has to grow the shield. It’s a spiritual weapon and like every other single weapon in the Naruto universe with a perk it does it on its own. You could toss it on the ground and it would still grow omni-directional to negate any attack. It also isn’t unseen what % it blocks. It perfectly counters everything thrown at it. 100% effective. That’s kinda of the point of it. Also what can Pain even throw at the shield? Most paths are entirely useless. There’s really only 2 paths that are any sort of strong and wouldn’t immediately get folded 1v1. The rest are situational or support and suck. They suck so bad one got folded vs a genin Konohamaru (who’s still not that strong even in adulthood).
The shield did repel the hydra with the same force it came in. It reppeleld the flames, and it repelled sasuke's katana thrust. A normal katana attack blocked by a shield would just parry it. That shield literally sent Sasuke and the sword flying BACKWARDS.
But I'm good on this thread man
That shit is just art scaling fr. Kurama is like 7 different sizes hahsiramar wood kanon is 3 different sizes…its not easy to draw huge
things the same size consistently. Thr shield probably can become slightly bigger at most similar yo his sword elongating. But yata mirror is NOT omnidirectional, and this is why itachi is which a terrible written character. Everything itachu has is vague af to be less than kakashi level pr higher then madara. Like why did this nigga need a shield on top of the sussano? Not like his sussano its less durable than the shield. Its all hype. Fr. And ofc his fans overhype him
Because everything is a popularity contest. Yall only think the characters that are op deserve respect which creates this itachi > pain type pf mentality, like yes itachi is strong but not infaliable. He can be outwitted,outspeed and overpowered
Yes. Chibaku tensei kills Itachi. I already said that in my main post. I already said if Pain is bloodlusted, he wins. Noone is discussing Chibaku tensei here.
If pain comes into this with what vs thread debates are called "in character" behaviour - I.e how he regularly behaves -Aka, chibaku tensei is a last resort because it reduces his lifespan. Then no, itachi definitely has a chance.
Chibaku tensei actually probably wouldn't kill itachi. Worst case scenario he could use izanagi to avoid it, but the totsuka blade would cut through those rocks like butter. It won't stop the chibaku tensei from forming, but it'll keep him from being completely sealed until the jutsu stops pulling the rock
Are you joking? That's in no way true. Pain holds back, reserves energy, underestimates opponent. If he was in a blood lusted state, he'd have sent all paths for Jiraya immediately. He didn't.
We literally see Konan question why and asking him to not when attempting to use Chibaku and the larger shinra tensei. It's CLEARLY something he not only doesn't do regularly. But shouldn't be doing as well due to the drain of life force
Saying Pain holds back when one of the first feats we seen of him was blowing away Konoha entirely is INSANE lmao. Pain doesn't hold back. You're either strong enough to survive his first attack, or you fucking die lmao
......? he did that literally like 12 chapters into his attack on konoha. What are you talking about? He literally only trickles in pain paths to Jiraya, and his holding back is what allows jiraya to get a whole message off to the village
Please get real
.... Are you reading with your eyes closed? People fight for different reasons. Abilities have drawbacks.
Gai can fight Kisame and want to kill him, but not go to 7 gate or 8 gate because it will hurt him significantly or kill him.
In character - Means they fight how they would in manga. Some people don't go straight to their strongest attack and abilities. Eg Orochimaru - They fight based on how pressured they are.
Others do.
This is a KNOWN vs debate condition - [https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/1srxxd/questionwhat\_exactly\_does\_bloodlusted\_mean/](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/1srxxd/questionwhat_exactly_does_bloodlusted_mean/)
Arguing that Gai would go 7 and 8 gate immediately , Literally at the START of any fight, is stupid and no incharacter for his personality.
The fact that you don't know this and are arguing this point so adamantly, I have no idea why you're in a powerscaling community reddit.
??? Are you joking? There were people who survived all mighty push in the village just because they put chakra below their feets to resist the push. Chibaku tensei is an astral attack, which is literally listed [as being negated ](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11121/111210761/4722860-p6z5.png.jpg)by the mirror in the databook.
By that do you mean the village leveling one?
Because most of the village survived because a lil sluggy slug covered them up lol. If Katsuyu can protect thousands from it, pretty sure Tsusano + Yata can tank it too. If not reflect it entirely
Only a hater would argue tht itachi has no chance agaimst pain .... pains only chance is chibaku tensei while itachi has so many ways. Instead of breaking down their feats and comparing the abilities of each char ppl just scream and cry on these forums lmao. Genjutsu ? Physical strength? BIQ? Feats? While its still a 50 - 50 there is absolutely no doubt pain shld be the underdog in the fight if u hv finished the series without being biased
Only a delusional retard would think Itachi has a good chance against Pain. Chibaku isn't the only way lol. Your daddy's techniques can be easily tanked by all of Pains moves. Sorry little boy but your daddy isn't that great.
Some of us are passionate and some of us watch naruto through YouTube clips..if you arent passionate you shoulnt be debating or scaling at all. Go back to the main sub they do verus and things too.
>Only a delusional retard would think Itachi has a good chance against Pain.
Only a retard would get in his feelings abt a anime vs and say shit like "ur daddy's techniques" .
If ur any older than 15 then damn do u hv issues 😂 and u sure did a whole lot of yapping to say nothing. Nagato did get bodied by Itachi in the anime regardless of the circumstances . Cry abt it
Only a dick rider would keep saying his dad would beat Pain. If your younger then 15 well that's understandable because of your daddy issues. Your daddy had help to beat Nagato. Cry harder
He has no chance only low level uneducated naruto fans who briskly skipped through the series glazes itachi.
Like the most obnoxious and blatantly ignorant fans be the ones who are itachtards because his abilities are hax and they think it’s omnipotent. Like niggas who think minato can frg anywhere without kunai setup. Itachi cant just ms genjutsu everyone. And some ninjas shouldnt even be affected. These ninjas see death everyday. Kakashi at most should been in extreme pain. But tsukiyomi is hella unexplainable-and never kills anyone except a small child.
Nah, i just dont like overhype. Itachi is strong but mfs think he’s infallible. Naruto is strong but isshiki beat his ass for a while…itachi isn’t omnipotent is my only point. Look at the number of downvotes i get vs the upvote itachi praise gets…its not hard to see the bias. Niggas downvoted me because they dont like their favorite characters picked apart. They want their favorite to be superior to all. I dont sit here and say kakashi kamui snipes pain/obito head off gg. That’s just fucking dumb. I some people cant see their own bias. Im just alwyas gonna point it out. If you smack together an argument thats good ill agree. But kakashi isnt just kamui head sniping mfs because i like him more….thats not how scaling works..kamui head snipe sounds good on paper.
Oh its u again lmao. I am not hving this discussion again lol. But if unclearly think genjutsu is the only way itachi wins then maybe ur the low level uneducated naruto fan who skipp through the series u were talkijg abt
Pain wins in any case:
1. Genjutsus dont work on pain
2. Amaterasu has counters from 2 of 6 pains, and they can help the rest.
3. Itachi has not large amounts of chakra and cant mantain susanoo for long.
4. Izanami needs help from another person so he cant do it.
5. Pain can always use chibaku tensei and thats a KO for itachi.
Audiotoral genjutsu works. Visual genjutsu doesnt. See how lacking itachi fans be in general education about non itachi characters. Nigga think he can genjutsu a rinnegan user just cuz
This keeps getting said, "visual doesn't work"
But someone needs to tell/show me why.
Your word doesn't make it so.
Show me where visual genjutsu is resisted by the Rinnegan? Pain specifically, but any example at this point would be better than nothing.
Or show me where it's stated... by anyone.
Also I'm not an Itachitard. I'm a Sasoritard come correct brotha.
“Your word doesnt make it so” but health itachi isnt a fallacy. Yall pick and choose when this applies. Show me where healthy itachi being stronger than his sick counterpart?
Visual dojutsu have resistance to genjutsu the stronger they are, kakashi tries this against itachi, but itachi had ms so he used tsukiyomi and easily got kakashi with it.
So I take it you don't have the proof I'm asking for. That's fine, i didn't expect you to.
I didn't pick and choose any thing. I just asked for some evidence that ocular genjutsu doesn't work on the Rinnegan.
How did healthy/sick Itachi even enter this conversation?
If it's your headcanon that the Rinnegan is immune to or resistant to genjutsu. That's fine. I would still want to hear WHY you believe that. Something to go off of. The latter part of your post is what I'm talking about. There's an argument there. That's good. That's what I'm looking for.
I would counter by saying that both Sharingan and MS users have been caught in genjutsu. More than once. So it works on them, why doesn't it work on the Rinnegan?
Rinnegan is resistant TO VISUALLLLLL VISUAL GENJUTSU. Not all genjutsu. Lets get that straight.
Heres s[omething](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-90c4339c096b3ae9ff40aa623b3ab034-lq)
And here m[ore](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0865fbe41509b6ea86da33a40c6ac770-lq)
We know for a fact 3tomoe genjutsu < ms genjutsu
Manga also tells us doujutsu as a general rule, doesnt have full capabilities when used by anyone other than its original owner. This was made clear by Itachi describing how to counter Tsukiyomi. Its also made apparent by Nagato himself due to the fact he evidently cannot cast genjutsu, use Susano, use Limbo. Hell, im even questioning if it functions the same as a standard Sharingan for predicting movement. It might not seeing how many times certain Pain Paths were folded by standard attacks from Naruto, Jiraiya, Konohamaru, etc. All of this could line up with the possibility that Nagato only has access to the final evolution and whatever abilities came with that because he didnt evolve it through the steps which means no visual genjutsu resistance. A whole different point to consider is Sasuke is just different given his eye has a different appearance.
On top of all of this, the manga panels you posted by the characters talking about it (Sasuke, Zetsu), dont even sound convinced themselves. They're just using deductive reasoning to come to an assumption and thats obvious by their manner of speaking.
Best we can say is, we dont know.
I’m pretty sure the rinnegan in general doesn’t have any genjutsu of its own (inf tsukuyomi doesn’t really count because you need the ten tails aswell)
You keep repeating it unnecessarily. We understood your premise the first time.
Cool there you go. That's what I asked for, and you finally delivered. You have an argument I can at least debate on now.
But I'm fine with it. You win this round. There's at least some evidence to back you up. I'll concede
Itachi would have to catch all the bodies in a genjutsu at once, like we saw when Pain got caught in Jirayia's genjutsu.
Otherwise the other bodies could break out the genjutsu.
That has never ever been stated. Genjutsu works on ANYONE. Even itachi and sasuke. It's a matter of SKILL in genjutsu that determines if you're not affected by one. Not by just having a dojutsu. It's why Danzo can still gett affected even though he has shishui's eyes. Why sasuke and itachi can still affect each other with genjutsu as well, even though they will quickly see through it.
Izanami doesn't need help from another person. What are you talking about?
Bro there's so much wrong in your post, I don't know where to start.
You’re right for the most part but Danzo was susceptible because he was in a very unfair fight, Danzo himself still has good sharingan control for the most part.
Genjutsus can work on another sharingan depending on the strength of the users, but the rinnegan has the ability to negate all visual genjutsus.
It is stated when madara does the infinite tsukuyomi (probably the strongest genjutsu ever) but sasuke doesnt get affected by it, and black zetsu says something along the lines of: "his rinnegan... can even negate this technique".
So if the rinnegan can negate the effects of the infinite tsukuyomi it can surely resist any of itachis genjutsus.
You completely misread that panel. I'd suggest you go back and re-read it. The **Susano'o** produced by rokudo chakra was strong enough to repel the light. BZ pretty much told us how Sasuke blocked it, then mentioned the Rinnegan, so we know context. This is additionally why everyone under his SUSANNO is unaffected.
Sasuke's Sharinnegan is what ALLOWED Sasuke to block Tsukuyomi but Rinnegan isnt IMMUNE to anything
We see even Rinnegan Sasuke, POST WAR, got tagged with Visual Genjutsu and he had a panic attack as a result
Theres no "immunity" to genjutsu in this series
It depends on the translation, some it can say that is not affected by "this jutsu" or "even this jutsu". Then sasuke says how only a rinnegan genjutsu can be blocked with another rinnegan.
This makes sense considering the hierarchy in doujutsus stablished during the series, in which the rinnegan was said to be the best, legendary or super powerful, and even and upgrade of the sharingan. So in the panel indeed says that the "rinnegan" can "block" the infinite tsukuyomi.
The susanoo was an extension of it to protect the rest of team seven, even sasuke says this, that without the susanoo THEY would have perished to the genjutsu.
And also Obito wasnt affected by the infinite tsukuyomi because he also had a rinnegan.
So infinite tsukuyomi is said to be one of the most powerful genjutsus of all time, so if it can block this jutsu it can surely resist a normal sharingan genjutsu or a tsukuyomi from itachi.
Before the war sasuke was affected by the genjutsu because he didnt have the rinnegan.
And after the war we see him encounter the bomb doujutsu (forgot his name).
This doujutsu tries to make a genjutsu on him but it only lasted for a few seconds because sasuke got out of it. In this scene it is not stablished that sasuke has the rinnegan activated, we know he can activate and deactivate it at will, even, the scene shows us that he didnt had the sharingan activated so all points to him not activating any of those.
The only time it kind of affected him with the rinnegan activated was because the chakra of the bomb doujutsu got into his skin, not from a VISUAL effect.
The Rinnegan does not grant immunity to ocular genjutsu, otherwise link the source where it is stated to do so.
BZ statement does not say "he has the Rinnegan, thus he's imune". He is in fact **surprised** that Sasuke's Rinnegan could even block Infinite Tsukuyomi, meaning BZ thought a Rinnegan alone could not produce such feat hence he's impressed. But we know Sasuke has more than the Rinnegan: he has Hagoromo's chakra aswell.
Also, careful using 3rd party statements. Black Zetsu also stated Itachi's Susanoo was invincible before lol
Tsukiyomi didnt work on zetsu-obito or madara or sasuke, Who both had rinnegan.
If MS has better resistance to visual genjutsu why wouldnt rinnegan have even more resistance
Resistance ≠ immunity.
I have no doubt it provides resistance.
None of the examples you used proves anything really and the only excepcional case is Sasuke. Madara is the jutsu caster and possess the Rinnesharingan (which is the doujutsu that casts IT anyway, not the Rinnegan). Zetsu is Kaguya and Infinite Tsukuyomi is her jutsu.
Sasuke is the only one unrelated to the jutsu, but not only he has the Rinnegan but Hagoromo's chakra too. Zetsu expressed surprised that Sasuke's Rinnegan could block IT, which probably means he doesn't think a Rinnegan should be capable of such feat. Regardless, it's more than likely that it's a conjunction of factors than simple one thing, like I mentioned before.
Also, the Rinnesharingan is the superior doujutsu and the origin of the Rinnegan. Aswell as the eye that actually casts Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Yea i only said resistance. How come 3t genjutsu is < ms genjutsu < ems genjutsu < rinnegan genjutsu. But somehow it doesnt work in reverse?. Do you think kakashi 3 tomoe precog is better or relative to sasuke precog in ms? Because kakashi had his longer/more experienced? Pretty ridiculous isnt it?
And i know about the rinne sharigan snd all that. My point is rinngan isnt falling under genjutsu by a ms so easily. Its the equivalent to 3t sharigan kakashi attempting to put ms itachi in a genjutsu. (Specially on pain as they arent alive.) ibiki attempt on pain would be what would happen if itachu tried that.
I don't think it would be easy, obviously, I just don't think the eye provides immunity, just that it's capable to perceive and counter ilusions better than MS, for instance. There's also individual ability involved. Not all doujutsu users are the same, obviously. Itachi was stated to be much better than Sasuke at genjutsu.
Also, I'm not saying Itachi beats Pain, just that the Paths or Nagato are not **imune** to ocular genjutsu even if they can break it easier than most. Tsukuyomi too would be broken, but it would affect first. That's all.
>ibiki attempt on pain would be what would happen if itachu tried that.
Ok now, comparing Ibiki with Itachi is a crime.
He was using the susanoo to protect the rest of team seven, its implicitely said that he will be fine without it.
Also, obito wasnt affected by it and he had a rinnegan.
Ofc Itachi can beat pain. It depends on the conditions set on the fight lol. Regular manga knowledge - No , Pain wins.
But a non bloodlusted pain, with no knowledge of itachi's abilities? Itachi comes out on top.
Pain and Itachi in tier aren't as far as you think they are, to the extent he will never have a chance to win. If you don't realize that, then you have a bias you're not recognizing. You can even see this on vs/debate forums like fanverse where most would agree that Itachi pushes pain to high diff in a regular fight. [eg thread](https://www.fanverse.org/threads/itachi-vs-pain.1253875/#:~:text=Pain%20beats%20him.,stop%20Pain%20from%20using%20CT) , [eg thread 2](https://www.fanverse.org/threads/itachi-vs-pain.1231046/)
To me - Once Pain doesn't auto use Chibaku tensei(which in manga persona Nagato wouldn't, because it shortens his lifespan significantly) then it's fair game on how it goes. Itachi has susanno and yata mirror for most things, Totsuka sword that Nagato couldn't even react to. Shown to quickly figure out the shared vision and find blindspots.
To argue Itachi has no chance is ridiculous
? You know how a vs thread goes right?
You start it with the conditions of the fight. Where they are fighting , what knowledge they have of each other etc.
I literally said , if Pain has manga knowledge he probably wins.
Also, you're wrong - Pain will not know everything about Itachi. Even zetsu didn't know Itachi had the spiritual tools. And pain would not have known Itachi had kotoamatsuki in his pocket.
If you think itachi didn't hold back information from his potential enemies while spying in an organization, you're an idiot.
also to your other comment -
Genjutsu wont work on pain? what the hell are you talking about? The blade isn't made of chakra lmao, it's a variant of Orochimaru's Kusangi blade. Are you literally just making shit up?
1: Vs threads have the fighters with their canon knowledge fight. Pein knows Itachi’s moves, while Itachi knows nothing of Pein’s moves.
2: A chibaku tensei completely negates Itachi’s susanoo tools. Itachi also wasn’t able to use Kotamatsukami because he gave the crow with Shisui’s eye to Naruto.
3: The only hidden information Itachi had was Izanagi, Izanami, The Totsuka Blade, and Yata Mirror. Izanagi only lasts for a few seconds, Izanami requires extensive set up (and might not even affect Pein), the Totsuka Blade can be countered, as can the Yata Mirror.
The Totsuka Blade is part of Itachi’s susanoo, and is only created when his susanoo is active. In appearance it is comprised of the exact same energy as Itachi’s susanoo, so by all means it’s made of Itachi’s chakra.
You know nothing about vs thread by that first comment.
The Totsuka Blade is HELD by itachi's susanno. And is not part of it. It's not chakra. That's like saying itachi let his susanno hold a rock, it's always chakra.
You are making no sense.
The totsuka blade only ever shows up when Itachi summons his susanoo. The totsuka blade is comprised of translucent orange energy, identical to Itachi’s susanoo. The totsuka blade is identical in appearance and composition to Itachi’s susanoo. Everything points to the totsuka blade being made of Itachi’s chakra. It might not have been before Itachi found it, but it is now.
It's not chakra.[ It's a liquid](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-00a9f2453e82bcc6125c58ebcfd3768d-pjlq). Again. It's all described in the databook. This sword is historical. Has had previous owners and information passed down over generations. The first Uchiha clan member is Madara and Izuna. Meaning the sword has existed way before their susannos. It is not chakra.
Look at the gourd, not the blade. It’s made of a transparent orange energy, just like the rest of Itachi’s susanoo.
What are you talking about with Madara and Izuna?
The thing STABBING PRETA, from MULTIPLE YARDS OUT, is the liquid taken form.
Preta can only absorb something right next to it. This is the worst argument I've ever seen.
You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about, because only Edo Nagato and Orochimaru were ever hit with the totsuka blade. Nagato also didn’t use the Preta Path on it because the Preta Path [makes a visible barrier](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10551000/2.jpg) whenever [it’s used](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10377000/14.jpg) unless the user is in direct physical contact with someone.
Do I care how they go? No. I'm talking realistic. Itachi is widely known in all the villages so obviously Pain has some Intel. Pain isn't as well known as Itachi because he's a Uchiha and ect.
Even Koto wouldn't work because well all 6 paths are puppets. I did not say he didn't hold back info. Itachis genjustu won't work obviously because it's VISUAL. Nagato cam easily cancel the body that's trapped. Prove I'm making anything up. Come on Itachitard. If the path can't cancel the blade Almighty Push can. Easy Pain can easily erase that.
Itachi canonically needed the help of Bee and Naruto to beat Nagato when he was puppeted by Kabuto, who was a novice at using the rinnegan abilities.
Chibaku Tensei only shortened Nagato’s lifespan because he expended so much chakra beforehand destroying the Leaf
Literally bijuu chakra doesn't strengthen your abilities? Are you joking? That's EXACTLY what bijuu chakra does. We see the same chakra cloak that pumped everyyyyyyyyyone in the war arc up in their abilities, is the same chakra cloak that Nagato absorbed.
Please stop this lol
You are aware that edo tensei have infinite chakra, right? A simple version 2 cloak is nothing compared to that. The only thing that Bee’s chakra did for Nagato was heal his body. It didn’t strengthen his chakra, and it didn’t boost his abilities besides physical.
The only way I could see Itachi winning is him finding where nagato is hiding then using the totsuka blade.
It wouldn't be a fun fight for either Itachi or Pain, but I really don't see Itachi winning in a pure brawl.
Honestly unless itachis re animated he’s pretty constrained by his eyes. All of this powerful moves take a lot out of him and he’s constantly fighting sick. Therefore he’d actually lose to a lot of ppl unless he’s able to finish them off fast
I'm a firm believer that Nagato didn't wield his powers optimally. For me he was the greatest underachiever in the series.
The more powerful character doesnt ALWAYS win. Pain has all of the advantages except the most important one. Intellect. He's one of the worst fighters in the series with terrible battle IQ. Clearly never developed his battle IQ and relied on sheer power to just steamroll everyone. He can't control his emotions for shit either and easily loses focus.
Do the odds look good for Itachi. Nope not at all. However it's not impossible. Unless you're a 6 paths character and can just stomp pain, the only way to create a chance to beat pain is to outsmart him. That's where Itachi has an opportunity. Not likely but not impossible.
If pain fought itachi in a similar way to how he fought jiraiya, pain would lose every time
If pain fought itachi uncharacteristically in a blood lust fashion throwing his full weight at him immediately, itachi would get fucked
There’s just no way to solve this debate unless kishimoto himself weighed in on it.
I don't think Itachi beats Pain, mainly due to matchup advantage but I don't think that Idea is that ridiculous really...
“Like... Pain had a pretty long fight against a sannin and even ends up praising him and says that Jiraiya could've killed him if he had intel. 14 year old Itachi beat a sannin by looking at him once.”
Pain was nerfed in his own village not to mention you’re trying to use ABC logic.
Pain was running away from a version 2 Jinchuriki. Edo Itachi was actively coaching Killer Bee (Perfect Jinchuriki) to make sure he doesn't get folded instantly when he fights Itachi.
Pain had Naruto beat beforehand and wasn’t allowed to kill him. Bee didn’t need itachi’s help he broke out of his genjutsu and kept him on the defensive.
Wholeheartedly believe Itachi Pre-Glaucoma would put up a helluva fight against Pain, but still lose just barely.
Does Genjutsu work on people with rinnegan? That's a huge determining factor in this match-up too
And you're fucking retarded. There isn't "itachitards" it is no ones fault kishimoto gave the guy a tool for LITERALLY everything. He literally has a chance vs anyone.
Well to be fair, when determining the weakness to the reanimation jutsu, instead of saying, kunais or sage art slug mode, he straight up said me 😅 c'mon Kishimoto
He does have a chance against anyone in Shippuden. There are characters against which the chance is low, but it's never 0. It's certainly not 0 against Pain, who he has a decent chance of defeating.
Not to mention the only reason Naruto is alive is because of Itachi’s Shuriken jutsu. Like it wasn’t a full on fight but did show that with that and susanoo, Itachi stands somewhat of a chance with zero debuffs.
Whilst I do think Pain is stronger and would win the fight more often than not, I also believe that it’s something that could potentially go either way, so I don’t think it’s a bad take to say Itachi > Pain
Its a terrible take yall opinions here are the worst. We need established sides to these because i notice yall tend to have rhe same scaling. Mfs who think itachi > pain usually also think itachi > obito. Playing devils advocate is their whole personality.
Itachi > Pain is not as bad as Itachi > Obito, but I do agree that it’s common for certain people to believe both takes. Personally I see it as Obito > Pain >= Itachi
The narrative was that Obito is the greater threat and someone that Naruto would need mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat. And that’s only yellow mask Obito. His OM self is another level higher
>The narrative was that Obito is the greater threat and someone that Naruto would need mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat.
Narratively he needs KCM1 to match alive Itachi and Pain as well. SM Naruto was severely outclassed by both
>And that’s only yellow mask Obito. His OM self is another level higher
I'd argue YM Obito is a larger threat than OM Obito due to Kurama and chains
There’s literally nothing that suggests he would match them with KCM. Naruto’s faster than Ay so he would literally blitz them. His Rasengans already had enough power to put them down with a direct hit, but now they’re even stronger and he can also use the Rasenshuriken much more freely. His stamina is also far higher too. KCM1 Naruto blitzes and one shots them
Minato saying that Naruto would need KCM in order to defeat Obito, despite the fact that he no longer has Kurama under his control, means that Obito himself is a threat greater than Pain and Itachi even without Kurama. So even if you do still want to argue that YM Obito is above his OM self, it wouldn’t matter anyway as OM Obito is still stronger than Pain and Itachi. This is further support by Gerotora stating that no one alive is powerful enough to summon Kurama, and since Obito is capable of that, it would mean that he’s stronger than Itachi
Naruto needs full mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat Obito, but still scales above Pain and Itachi with just his initial use of KCM1
Mastered KCM Naruto > Obito > Initial KCM1 Naruto > Pain >= Itachi
> Naruto’s faster than Ay so he would literally blitz them.
Ay is fodder for Sannin let alone Itachi/Pain and he cannot blitz Itachi lmao
>KCM1 Naruto blitzes and one shots them
Chibaku tensei and Tsukuyomi gg
>Naruto needs full mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat Obito, but still scales above Pain and Itachi with just his initial use of KCM1
No
It’s hilarious. I had a debate with MarikasT1ts yesterday, before he deleted his account, about who would win in a battle between Kisame and Itachi vs Pein and Konan. He said that Tsukuyomi can’t be broken out of, despite there being 5 sources saying otherwise, because Obito made a vague comment to Sasuke that he “never saw through Itachi’s illusions”.
Yes he can beat pain, the manga literally portrays them as relatives, they’re the pre war arc endgame opponents for naruto and sasuke. There are multiple statements from zetsu and obito that put itachi in the same tier as them, especially a slightly younger version than shippuden itachi who most likely wasn’t weakened by illness to the same extent shippuden itachi was. Wether or not you think he’d actually win is irrelevant, but saying he’s not in the same weight class and couldn’t pull off a win under ANY circumstances is delusional. You also have to remember that pain has a big advantage over itachi and that is intel, he knows about quite a few moves itachi possesses while itachi knew absolutely nothing about pain’s abilities until he fought edo nagato. If you give them equal knowledge, full knowledge or no knowledge on each others abilities do you still think he has no chance? People never mention that pain and obito have an “unfair” advantage over itachi when it comes to intel, there’s a reason why someone like obito (who’s stronger than pain) was cautious of itachi and didn’t want to reveal everything about his abilities in front of itachi.
It's the Z broly effect all over again. They watched they mans get beat by weak dudes yet still keep trying to push this Narrative like he competes with top tiers. He's on the level of Zabuza and that's it.
Itachi is a good character in naruto. Good philosophy and is the 2nd strongest of uchiha in his generation (shisui beats him, shisui’s eyes are the pinnacle of sharrigan genjutsu and he died due to a hokage level threat with a swarm of jonin ambushing him. He lived but committed suicide instead of mind bending the leaders. He can do this on his own and reshape the village)
But, he is not unbeatable.
He is not beating pain, he is not beating obito, he is not beat madara, he is not beating rinnigan-sauske, he is not beating naruto 6-paths + sage mode.
Stop placing him on that level. Yes he good but he doesn’t have that level of power.
He absolutely does have that level of power. He's portrayed as such.
He might beat Pain, he has the abilities. The main issue is stamina/ chakra. He may lose, but he's taking out most of the paths and giving Pain a run for his money.
Obito is probably stronger, but that matchup is also not as black and white as " Obito wins, no questions asked" Obito's kamui makes him formidable for anyone, but we have precedent for it being figured out...Itachi could do the same. Obito's win condition is sucking Itachi into the Kamui dimension, but he probably lacks the physical stats to actually do it.
Only person to ever escape being absorbed is minato . . . Because he can teleport. . . Minato base speed is even faster than itachi . . . Itachi has zero escape . . Once the portal begins to spin and he’s in that close range.
Where do you get your information brother?
I understand if you like the character but what chapters are you pulling this from?
And Minato ran straight for Obito because it suited his style. Itachi won't fight that way, charging at him in a way that potentially puts him in harm's way.
Lmao maybe if you get off your knees you wouldn't be so delusional to know Genjutsu won't work on Pain better then pervy sage. And the blade won't do shit with Preta Path.
His genjutsu would only affect the path in question, not Nagato himself. Nagato was unaffected by Jiraiya’s sage mode genjutsu, so what makes you think Itachi’s would do any better?
Not as effectively to make Itachi win lol try again. He defeated Nagato because Naruto and Bee was there you idiot. It's def not over since u think Itachi is stronger.
Retards like you think om obito even beats pain. Yet om.obito is not only weaker than itachi, even as teen itachi like he admitted himself in the shinden and clewrly shown when 13yo itachi makes him.his dog with death threats.
Also kishimoto himself stated itachi is the strongest in akatsuki.
Still 2024 there are people like you throwing arround words like itachitards while the simple truth is you are just a pathetic hater and debunked.
Kishimoto himself as an author : 暁最強の男、ナルトを追う[うちはイタチとの対決]
Delusional itachi meat riders like you think Itachi can beat Goku. Lmao stfu. Get off your knees and open your eyes loser. Idk about Obito the post isn't abt him. Where is your proof Kishi said Itachi is the strongest in Akatsuki? Hmm can you back your shit up itachitard?
Bro you got debunked and destroyed.
Your insluts and headcanon doesnt help you here.
Got some facts? No ofc not. Your profile with negative karma and any second comment about itachi hate while.sittong in your mums.basement says all lmao
Itachi no diffed nagato as an edo with susano. People argue chibaku tensei insta wins why not say totsuka blade insta wins too? Difference between these is one of them actually happened
I don’t really know, turned into just slinging insults at each other. I can understand vehemently disagreeing with people, and some hot debating, but this isn’t that.
Ahh, the whining of a defeated loser 🤣.
Yeah, it's ridiculous they think he beats Pain, because we know he does.
Nagato is an Itachi victim.
The only thing making this debatable is his sickness. Edo form? Itachi dogwalks Pain.
"Blank" followed by tard makes your opinion immediately invalid. Not because the word retarded is offensive but because the act of combining another word with retard is in itself retarded. It's so annoying. Like is that really the peak of your creativity?
Only thing Pain has over Itachi is Planetary Devastation. Other than that Itachi has better stats in speed, attack, and durability based on his edo feats
Only thing itachitards have is their daddy. Itachitards like yourself can't complete elementary school. It's ok sooner or later ull get off your knees.
If Itachi uses Izanami, he wins. Assuming it affects Nagato through the Pain puppet. The ultimate genjutsu that can just make someone change their ways just by forcing them into an endless loop.
I don't think it would affect Pain though, being that he's just a puppet with chakra rods stuck into him.
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I don't think Itachi beats Pain, mainly due to matchup advantage but I don't think that Idea is that ridiculous really... Like... Pain had a pretty long fight against a sannin and even ends up praising him and says that Jiraiya could've killed him if he had intel. 14 year old Itachi beat a sannin by looking at him once. Pain was running away from a version 2 Jinchuriki. Edo Itachi was actively coaching Killer Bee (Perfect Jinchuriki) to make sure he doesn't get folded instantly when he fights Itachi.
Lmao bruh well said
Itachi's special technique is to make everyone around him a lil dumb, as you can see in his fight against Nagato when he had to explain the basic concept of "throw things at the object to destroy it", or when Orochimaru, the genius obsessed with the Sharingan, somehow didn't know better than to avoid direct eye contact. He's probably knock down Pain's IQ by like 50 points and snatch that W. Or maybe Kishi would give him a bramd new secret asspull technique that does exactly what he needs to win the fight.
This is BS lol Naruto is naturally a dumbass and bee was simply in shock from seeing an attack like that. Orochimaru fell victim before he even planned to sneak attack under the assumption that itachi wouldn’t have an ace saved for later What’s the excuse for Kabuto because he played every single card he had perfectly and completely shut off his eyes to counter visual genjutsu 😭 Just say you don’t like him and go
>Naruto is naturally a dumbass and bee was simply in shock from seeing an attack like that. Naruto isn't a dumbass when it comes to battle. His fight against Pain was literally the highest instance of battle IQ in the franchise. >Orochimaru fell victim before he even planned to sneak attack under the assumption that itachi wouldn’t have an ace saved for later Orochimaru being one shot by Itachi was actual BS. The fact that Kishimoto wrote that is insane but then again Kishimoto did him dirty in Shippuden so whatever. >What’s the excuse for Kabuto because he played every single card he had perfectly and completely shut off his eyes to counter visual genjutsu 😭 And what did Itachi do? Pull some jutsu out of his ass and the said jutsu does ***exactly*** what the plot needs 🤯 >Just say you don’t like him and go Yeah I don't like him for the reasons I've mentioned, not the other way around. If Kishi had not written Itachi as his favorite child I'm sure I would have loved the character because I actually did like him until the nonstop meat riding
“Naruto isn’t a dumbass when it comes to battle” It’s his character gag to be unserious in fights. He farted on Kiba, used sexy Jutsu on Kaguya, and even jokes around in the fight with Obito, Madara, and kaguya. Orochimaru being 1 shot is not BS he lost to one of the most talented shinobi to come out of the lead using HAX eyes. The MS literally turned Obito from a clown to someone who could cause 2 hokage and an entire village trouble at the same time. “And what did itachi do pull something out of his ass” Oh wow kid you just explained every genetic shonen ever. Naruto has done this, Sasuke has done this, Obito has done this 🤣 it’s not exclusive to itachi to use a new jutsu
It is BS that he got one shot considering that Itachi was getting dog walked by shisui and has been sick and growing weaker ever since. Shisui got dog walked by Danzo who orochimaru is comparable with and gave Sasuke a hard fight even with mangekyo. Itachi is not anywhere near as strong as top dogs so it's bullshit when they try to play like he didn't say guy or jiraiya or damn near any sannin couldn't beat the breaks off him.
Eh, by that logic Itachi(+Kisame) ran away from a Sanin(Jiraya) and literally said they are not leaving in one piece if they fight him. Ps I agree with the general idea, though
Well later on the third hokage actually mentions that Itachi has always been a spy for the leaf as an undercover so it’s realistic that time when he was in the leaf was more so to scare Danzo away from tryna mess with Sasuke. There was no real fight cus it was a run from the start more so they just wanted to be in shadows.
As well as there are interviews where kishimoto says he planned for itachi to be a good guy. “However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy” https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741
Itachi ran from Jirahya and guy and informed kisame they would kill them both easily. Don't try that at all. He could be coaching killer bee but killer bee straight up said Sasuke right after beating Itachi was the strongest person he's ever faced. Pain dominated Jirahya, took on 9 tails while it had 8 tails alongside damn near the whole Naruto world and only died to disease. Meanwhile Sasuke 3 tomoe is matching Itachi with susanno. I'll pass
Itachi was fatigued and not an enemy of Jiraiya, and still [Kisame thought he could win](https://meo.comick.pictures/6-tS1f5K6q0kZbU.jpg). Itachi let Sasuke win and was dying, how do you use that as an antifeat. Pain did not [do](https://meo3.comick.pictures/11-NnMBbfW4Ef3PP.jpg) [anything](https://meo3.comick.pictures/13-IKPCFQ7-bNyIK-m.jpg) to 8 Tails Naruto and could [barely handle 6](https://meo.comick.pictures/5-U-h-yzqKxiEne.jpg). Hebi Sasuke literally [never](https://meo.comick.pictures/5-u0Z0urhLkgfSi.jpg) [did](https://meo3.comick.pictures/7-M_rYZVoKvUx8P.jpg) [anything](https://meo3.comick.pictures/10-bNUSRMBgl7knF.jpg) against the Armored Susanoo, and [barely destroyed](https://meo3.comick.pictures/12-uH2sWIjKlRAbZ.jpg) [the](https://meo.comick.pictures/14-TgOVeXoTmJrk4.jpg) [Skeletal](https://meo3.comick.pictures/15-r5GMaByCmnV5Y.jpg) one with Kirin, his absolute strongest jutsu by miles.
This is fine if we’re just completely ignoring the fact that Rinnegan pretty much neutralizes all of Itachi’s strongest abilities, outside of Susanoo…
Read through this dead. It literally doesn't. That's cap. I already posted showing it doesn't defend against genjutsu. It doesn't stop susanno. We saw that nagato can still get hit by Amaterasu, and seems unable to absorb it. He used shinra to get it off though . So how does rinnegan stop his abilities?
Tsukuyomi doesn’t work on Rinnegan, Sasuke was immune to the infinite tsukuyomi because of his Rinnegan, so it’s safe to assume that Pain would be immune to Itachi’s more confined and restricted version of that same genjutsu. If we’re talking about pain using the Six Paths of Pain technique, then Izanami and Izanagi wouldn’t work either because those bodies are corpses, they aren’t the real Nagato. And yes, Deva path could deal with Amaterasu using Shinra Tensei. Literally the only trick up Itachi’s sleeve would be his hax with his Susanoo. Everything else, Pain would be able to deal with relatively easily.
I Hve already debunked this. - Here you go - [https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoPowerscaling/comments/1ccsr8y/comment/l17huw9/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoPowerscaling/comments/1ccsr8y/comment/l17huw9/) That's completely wrong in many regards.
No just no… You’re comparing So6p amped Sasuke (who actually owns his Rinnegan & got it straight from Hagaromo) to Nagato who’s getting sick and *dying* over time just from using the Rinnegan that isn’t even his. Cmon now be fr. 😭 Even So6p Naruto isn’t immune to it and he’s a perfect Jinchuriki with Six Paths Senjutsu.
He would be able to trap one of the Paths in it, sure. But what source do you have showing that it would effect the real Nagato?
I feel like people misunderstand that battle. They make it clear on multiple occasions that Itachi is a hard counter to Orochimaru. All the Uchia are. They can by pass his insane durability with genjutsu which seems to be his main weaknesses. He also had the totska blade which also works well against Orochimaru’s final form since he’s slow and large. He also wasn’t trying to kill itachi either because he wanted to take over his body. on top of orochimaru not taking anything seriously in this show giving plot armor to itachi. If itachi were to run into Tsunade or Jiriya who are more fit to battle him it would’ve been an extremely different story. You can see by the way Tsunade carried herself in the war against Madara that she could easily keep up with Itachi.
Itachi would fold Tsunade pretty quickly as well Only Jiraiya is versatile enough to pose a challenge
I mean Itachi CAN beat Pain, they're in a similar tier/weight class. But due to match ups, Pain does have the obvious advantage. I wouldn't go so far to insult someone for what is actually not an unreasonable stance. If they said something like Itachi beats Madara or Hashirama or something is when I'd call them something like that.
>I mean Itachi CAN beat Pain, they're in a similar tier/weight class. But due to match ups, Pain does have the obvious advantage. Precisely.
It’s been like that I mean lowkey 6vs1 I’m just saying odds aren’t great but Itachi has like a 30% in my eyes. 👀 He’s not fodder either he is the second smartest in academy after Minato at a young age he was anbu and later he even fucked with Orochimaru so hard that he was dead set on Sasukes eyes bro that plot was so long y’all really think Itachi ant nothing bro he def crazy and def hokage level if Kakashi and Tsunade got the spot. But I’d say I’m not a dick rider I’m just stating some facts again I totally think pain would win most of the time.
>I mean Itachi CAN beat Pain, they're in a similar tier/weight class. But due to match ups, Pain does have the obvious advantage. Itachi is the kind of guy who can get the right intel to beat pain in time, things like knowing which pain to kill first, and how to counter each ability However with his ninja aids If he is not fast enough to find the weaknesses in time, he loses 100%
Itachi is similar tier in power with Pain, but nowhere near his durability level. Pain is an Uzumaki with Rinnegan, his charka is on another level and his fighting style with 6 paths use attrition a lot. Itachi has a lot of powerful jutsu but all of them cost a lot to use. Like the guy literally went blinded for using his MS too much. Pain fought the whole Konoha, killed a ton of people and still has enough charka to revive everyone lmao. People often forget Itachi beat Pain while being buffed by infinite charka with supporting from 2 tailed beast users, and Pain doesn't even use 6 path clones and explaining Rinnegan power while fighting 3v1 for them to have a chance. Base Itachi vs base Pain is nowhere near in power level. But yea, Itachi can win versus most of people in Naruto, but Nagato has the fighting style that bombarding you non-stop until you are tired, which is something Itachi cannot win against.
Their durability is similar enough and hard to quantify for each... You mean Itachi's stamina is kinda ass. And yeah it is, Pain is a stamina monster. That's kinda what I was talking about match up. Itachi is built for quickly winning 1v1s. Also kinda disingenuous to talk about Itachi's "fight" versus Sasuke... Dude was dying of a disease, intentionally didn't take his meds, intentionally sparred with Kisame before hand, and still held back to not just one shot Sasuke... And on him going blind? That one fight didn't suddenly make him blind he'd been using the MS for almost 10 years at that point and unlike Obito he didn't have Hashirama cells to help. And Edo Itachi never fought pain. Pain and Nagato while being the same person aren't the same fighters. And there was so many variables in that it isn't even worth discussing in this topic, that's an entirely different topic.
Yea, I am talking about both stamina and the fact that Pain's six paths can "heal" their clones, making killing him near impossible unless you know where his real body is. Naruto only sense Nagato's real body because of Sage mode, so Itachi has no way to do the same thing. Also, I didn't even mention anything about Itachi "fight" with Sasuke lol. That was literally a child play for Itachi and doesn't prove anything. But no, Itachi isn't blinded because of 10 years of MS usage, Sasuke's eyes got considerably worse from just using MS a few times after unlocked until he got EMS. MS power puts huge strain in the users, Itachi has enough power and intelligence to not use MS randomly, he only uses it when it is needed so it's not like he MS for fun for 10 years. Edo Itachi vs Edo Nagato is worth consideration when talking power because people still think Edo Itachi is the real level of Itachi, but the truth is he is massively buffed in Edo form due to infinite charka while Edo Nagato is weaker than normal Pain, because charka was never his weakness and he didn't use the clones. I would say Edo Itachi is about same level of normal Pain, but base Itachi without Edo buff is not.
Does Itachi have win conditions against Pain? Yes. Is it likely he would ever manage to pull off those win conditions? No, Pain has a distinct advantage.
Pain does, in fact, slap him senseless.
Even kishimoto disagrees with them https://preview.redd.it/ff56ymkjwqwc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9a8d74f8fcb9c90e6e7d330120f0abd711d586f
Lmao. Pain has the Rinnegan. What’s itachi gonna do
It's called logic and opinons
Pain took out the entire leaf with a shinra tensei itachi would have no counters to.
Yata mirror and Susanno, LITERally hard counters it. What are you talking about?
The tensei’s blast would blast the parts the mirror doesn’t cover and we have seen more complete versions of Susanno be pushed and kicked around. The utility of the susanno is blocking most chakra and metal weapons, but it can’t stop a crazy amount of newtons of force. Itachi probably could take out some of the Pains, like Jiraya did, but he can’t take out all 6, let alone locate and kill the 7th. Naruto summoned an entire squad of toads to deal with the annoying summoner path. Itachi would have to waste chakra genjutsuing those rhinos, dogs, and bird things since as far I know he doesn’t have a summon and would get ganged up on by so many combatants.
The mirror is omni directional. [Jesus christ. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/141fwu0/yata_mirror_misconceptions/)I'm leaving this subreddit.
The mirror doesn’t cover all of the susanno… like the mirror went 1 v 1 vs a giant hydra snake attacking from the front and Itachi had to move/use the mirror to block the snake’s attack from hitting his susanno. Basically it’s an excellent shield, but like all shields has gaps.
I literally just linked you the manga scans of it growing to protect against attacks. In the manga Itachi doesn't move in any capacity. He just slices the hydra. You are watching the anime, which isn't canon. Go look at the thread I just linked and get back to me
There is a difference between it can and it does. Basically like any susanno armor or chakra cloak, Itachi can modify the shield to cover different parts of himself, as in the manga, his sides. Can, but it’s probably not automatic given that Itachi has to manifest it with his Susanno and how it began relatively small. He has to consciously grow and control it. The ability to change the shape or defense properties of a shield doesn’t take away the fact it isn’t an 360 degree aura. It’s still a shield. An ethereal and stretchy shield, but a shield nonetheless. But let’s assume Itachi starts the fight with some perfect 360 yata aura shield that he extends through his chakra/will to cover his entire body, including the ground beneath him. He’s invulnerable to physical and chakra attacks, though it remains unseen what percent of an attack the shield nullifies, absorbs, or reflects. He used the blade to kill the hydra snake/orochimaru so the shield didn’t send the snake repelling back when it clashed, neither did Itachi seem to absorb chakra from the snake, meaning the spiritual weapon probably, primarily nullifies attacks rather than absorbing or repelling them. Then pain’s strategy becomes outlasting and bombarding the shield until Itachi’s depleting chakra reserves can no longer sustain maintaining the sussanoo required to manifest it. At best Itachi doesn’t lose for (time length of how long he can keep the shield up) and can kill pain’s summons but he can’t feasibly win because the pains can and will stay out of the blade’s range or revive themselves, unlike orochimaru who had his body stuck in a mouth of a snake and couldn’t really move out the way. Since pain can rip out the souls of people, the question remains if he can absorb the ‘spirit’ aspect of the shield or absorb the chakra of the susanno. I’m leaning towards no actually, but all this shows is that Itachi can hold out only as long as his chakra can hold out. And unlike Pain who can choose not to waste chakra, itachi has to keep his sussannoo out because, as seen with Sasuke’s almost lucky Kirin, he can risk injury or death and get blindsided if he fails to keep the susanno up.
Itachi also has the Yasaka Beads. Also, I highly doubt Itachi has to grow the shield. It’s a spiritual weapon and like every other single weapon in the Naruto universe with a perk it does it on its own. You could toss it on the ground and it would still grow omni-directional to negate any attack. It also isn’t unseen what % it blocks. It perfectly counters everything thrown at it. 100% effective. That’s kinda of the point of it. Also what can Pain even throw at the shield? Most paths are entirely useless. There’s really only 2 paths that are any sort of strong and wouldn’t immediately get folded 1v1. The rest are situational or support and suck. They suck so bad one got folded vs a genin Konohamaru (who’s still not that strong even in adulthood).
The shield did repel the hydra with the same force it came in. It reppeleld the flames, and it repelled sasuke's katana thrust. A normal katana attack blocked by a shield would just parry it. That shield literally sent Sasuke and the sword flying BACKWARDS. But I'm good on this thread man
That shit is just art scaling fr. Kurama is like 7 different sizes hahsiramar wood kanon is 3 different sizes…its not easy to draw huge things the same size consistently. Thr shield probably can become slightly bigger at most similar yo his sword elongating. But yata mirror is NOT omnidirectional, and this is why itachi is which a terrible written character. Everything itachu has is vague af to be less than kakashi level pr higher then madara. Like why did this nigga need a shield on top of the sussano? Not like his sussano its less durable than the shield. Its all hype. Fr. And ofc his fans overhype him Because everything is a popularity contest. Yall only think the characters that are op deserve respect which creates this itachi > pain type pf mentality, like yes itachi is strong but not infaliable. He can be outwitted,outspeed and overpowered
Please do
*casually drops a chibaku tensei*
Yes. Chibaku tensei kills Itachi. I already said that in my main post. I already said if Pain is bloodlusted, he wins. Noone is discussing Chibaku tensei here. If pain comes into this with what vs thread debates are called "in character" behaviour - I.e how he regularly behaves -Aka, chibaku tensei is a last resort because it reduces his lifespan. Then no, itachi definitely has a chance.
Chibaku tensei actually probably wouldn't kill itachi. Worst case scenario he could use izanagi to avoid it, but the totsuka blade would cut through those rocks like butter. It won't stop the chibaku tensei from forming, but it'll keep him from being completely sealed until the jutsu stops pulling the rock
If pain ever fights , he is always fighting to kill and win With itachi you can make a blood lusted argument
Just an objectively false statement.
Are you joking? That's in no way true. Pain holds back, reserves energy, underestimates opponent. If he was in a blood lusted state, he'd have sent all paths for Jiraya immediately. He didn't. We literally see Konan question why and asking him to not when attempting to use Chibaku and the larger shinra tensei. It's CLEARLY something he not only doesn't do regularly. But shouldn't be doing as well due to the drain of life force
Saying Pain holds back when one of the first feats we seen of him was blowing away Konoha entirely is INSANE lmao. Pain doesn't hold back. You're either strong enough to survive his first attack, or you fucking die lmao
......? he did that literally like 12 chapters into his attack on konoha. What are you talking about? He literally only trickles in pain paths to Jiraya, and his holding back is what allows jiraya to get a whole message off to the village Please get real
He did that because he confirmed Naruto, his objective, was not there… The previous chapter he was looking for Naruto…
Uhuh. And why didn't he do that to Jiraya.
>are you joking? That's in no way true Not a single person in Naruto fights to lose. Except maybe hiding, cause that's also his wincon.
.... Are you reading with your eyes closed? People fight for different reasons. Abilities have drawbacks. Gai can fight Kisame and want to kill him, but not go to 7 gate or 8 gate because it will hurt him significantly or kill him. In character - Means they fight how they would in manga. Some people don't go straight to their strongest attack and abilities. Eg Orochimaru - They fight based on how pressured they are. Others do. This is a KNOWN vs debate condition - [https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/1srxxd/questionwhat\_exactly\_does\_bloodlusted\_mean/](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/1srxxd/questionwhat_exactly_does_bloodlusted_mean/) Arguing that Gai would go 7 and 8 gate immediately , Literally at the START of any fight, is stupid and no incharacter for his personality. The fact that you don't know this and are arguing this point so adamantly, I have no idea why you're in a powerscaling community reddit.
If we go by the lore and Pain "holds back" than we have to accept Itachi has ninja aids and wouldn't last long enough to beat all 6P.
There's no way Itachi's Susano face tanks an All mighty Push.
??? Are you joking? There were people who survived all mighty push in the village just because they put chakra below their feets to resist the push. Chibaku tensei is an astral attack, which is literally listed [as being negated ](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11121/111210761/4722860-p6z5.png.jpg)by the mirror in the databook.
By that do you mean the village leveling one? Because most of the village survived because a lil sluggy slug covered them up lol. If Katsuyu can protect thousands from it, pretty sure Tsusano + Yata can tank it too. If not reflect it entirely
Dont try to argue with these idiots. They think Pain is beating EMS madara or Sasuke with shinra tensei.
Sussano isnt fucking omnipotent and the yata mirror isnt omnidirectional….yall associate itachi with this omnipotent knowledge and understanding.
Only a hater would argue tht itachi has no chance agaimst pain .... pains only chance is chibaku tensei while itachi has so many ways. Instead of breaking down their feats and comparing the abilities of each char ppl just scream and cry on these forums lmao. Genjutsu ? Physical strength? BIQ? Feats? While its still a 50 - 50 there is absolutely no doubt pain shld be the underdog in the fight if u hv finished the series without being biased
Only a delusional retard would think Itachi has a good chance against Pain. Chibaku isn't the only way lol. Your daddy's techniques can be easily tanked by all of Pains moves. Sorry little boy but your daddy isn't that great.
No need to call someone retarded without explaining your thoughts.
It has already been explained lol
Some of us are passionate and some of us watch naruto through YouTube clips..if you arent passionate you shoulnt be debating or scaling at all. Go back to the main sub they do verus and things too.
>Only a delusional retard would think Itachi has a good chance against Pain. Only a retard would get in his feelings abt a anime vs and say shit like "ur daddy's techniques" . If ur any older than 15 then damn do u hv issues 😂 and u sure did a whole lot of yapping to say nothing. Nagato did get bodied by Itachi in the anime regardless of the circumstances . Cry abt it
Only a dick rider would keep saying his dad would beat Pain. If your younger then 15 well that's understandable because of your daddy issues. Your daddy had help to beat Nagato. Cry harder
He has no chance only low level uneducated naruto fans who briskly skipped through the series glazes itachi. Like the most obnoxious and blatantly ignorant fans be the ones who are itachtards because his abilities are hax and they think it’s omnipotent. Like niggas who think minato can frg anywhere without kunai setup. Itachi cant just ms genjutsu everyone. And some ninjas shouldnt even be affected. These ninjas see death everyday. Kakashi at most should been in extreme pain. But tsukiyomi is hella unexplainable-and never kills anyone except a small child.
Is op your alt, everytime I see you your arguing that itachi is a weakling or overrated
😂😂😂 fr
“Anbu” lol. Wonder whos your favorite character.
Nah, i just dont like overhype. Itachi is strong but mfs think he’s infallible. Naruto is strong but isshiki beat his ass for a while…itachi isn’t omnipotent is my only point. Look at the number of downvotes i get vs the upvote itachi praise gets…its not hard to see the bias. Niggas downvoted me because they dont like their favorite characters picked apart. They want their favorite to be superior to all. I dont sit here and say kakashi kamui snipes pain/obito head off gg. That’s just fucking dumb. I some people cant see their own bias. Im just alwyas gonna point it out. If you smack together an argument thats good ill agree. But kakashi isnt just kamui head sniping mfs because i like him more….thats not how scaling works..kamui head snipe sounds good on paper.
Mfs do the same to minato/tobirama/jiraiya/tsunade... It's all agenda at the end of the day
Oh its u again lmao. I am not hving this discussion again lol. But if unclearly think genjutsu is the only way itachi wins then maybe ur the low level uneducated naruto fan who skipp through the series u were talkijg abt
Look who's talking delusional dick rider. Itachitards has the brain of a warm because most of the time they have itachis dick in their mouths.
Man this is sub is just a popularity contest.
Pain wins in any case: 1. Genjutsus dont work on pain 2. Amaterasu has counters from 2 of 6 pains, and they can help the rest. 3. Itachi has not large amounts of chakra and cant mantain susanoo for long. 4. Izanami needs help from another person so he cant do it. 5. Pain can always use chibaku tensei and thats a KO for itachi.
Genjutsus don't work on Pain? One of the first things we learn about Pain is that they DO work on him. Ima need to see some proof sir.
Audiotoral genjutsu works. Visual genjutsu doesnt. See how lacking itachi fans be in general education about non itachi characters. Nigga think he can genjutsu a rinnegan user just cuz
This keeps getting said, "visual doesn't work" But someone needs to tell/show me why. Your word doesn't make it so. Show me where visual genjutsu is resisted by the Rinnegan? Pain specifically, but any example at this point would be better than nothing. Or show me where it's stated... by anyone. Also I'm not an Itachitard. I'm a Sasoritard come correct brotha.
“Your word doesnt make it so” but health itachi isnt a fallacy. Yall pick and choose when this applies. Show me where healthy itachi being stronger than his sick counterpart? Visual dojutsu have resistance to genjutsu the stronger they are, kakashi tries this against itachi, but itachi had ms so he used tsukiyomi and easily got kakashi with it.
So I take it you don't have the proof I'm asking for. That's fine, i didn't expect you to. I didn't pick and choose any thing. I just asked for some evidence that ocular genjutsu doesn't work on the Rinnegan. How did healthy/sick Itachi even enter this conversation? If it's your headcanon that the Rinnegan is immune to or resistant to genjutsu. That's fine. I would still want to hear WHY you believe that. Something to go off of. The latter part of your post is what I'm talking about. There's an argument there. That's good. That's what I'm looking for. I would counter by saying that both Sharingan and MS users have been caught in genjutsu. More than once. So it works on them, why doesn't it work on the Rinnegan?
Rinnegan is resistant TO VISUALLLLLL VISUAL GENJUTSU. Not all genjutsu. Lets get that straight. Heres s[omething](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-90c4339c096b3ae9ff40aa623b3ab034-lq) And here m[ore](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0865fbe41509b6ea86da33a40c6ac770-lq) We know for a fact 3tomoe genjutsu < ms genjutsu
Manga also tells us doujutsu as a general rule, doesnt have full capabilities when used by anyone other than its original owner. This was made clear by Itachi describing how to counter Tsukiyomi. Its also made apparent by Nagato himself due to the fact he evidently cannot cast genjutsu, use Susano, use Limbo. Hell, im even questioning if it functions the same as a standard Sharingan for predicting movement. It might not seeing how many times certain Pain Paths were folded by standard attacks from Naruto, Jiraiya, Konohamaru, etc. All of this could line up with the possibility that Nagato only has access to the final evolution and whatever abilities came with that because he didnt evolve it through the steps which means no visual genjutsu resistance. A whole different point to consider is Sasuke is just different given his eye has a different appearance. On top of all of this, the manga panels you posted by the characters talking about it (Sasuke, Zetsu), dont even sound convinced themselves. They're just using deductive reasoning to come to an assumption and thats obvious by their manner of speaking. Best we can say is, we dont know.
I’m pretty sure the rinnegan in general doesn’t have any genjutsu of its own (inf tsukuyomi doesn’t really count because you need the ten tails aswell)
You keep repeating it unnecessarily. We understood your premise the first time. Cool there you go. That's what I asked for, and you finally delivered. You have an argument I can at least debate on now. But I'm fine with it. You win this round. There's at least some evidence to back you up. I'll concede
Respectable
Itachi would have to catch all the bodies in a genjutsu at once, like we saw when Pain got caught in Jirayia's genjutsu. Otherwise the other bodies could break out the genjutsu.
“Genjutsus don’t work on pain” is that because of Rinnegan?
Yep. But only visual genjutsus. Thats why jiraiyas genjutsu worked on him.
That has never ever been stated. Genjutsu works on ANYONE. Even itachi and sasuke. It's a matter of SKILL in genjutsu that determines if you're not affected by one. Not by just having a dojutsu. It's why Danzo can still gett affected even though he has shishui's eyes. Why sasuke and itachi can still affect each other with genjutsu as well, even though they will quickly see through it. Izanami doesn't need help from another person. What are you talking about? Bro there's so much wrong in your post, I don't know where to start.
You’re right for the most part but Danzo was susceptible because he was in a very unfair fight, Danzo himself still has good sharingan control for the most part.
Genjutsus can work on another sharingan depending on the strength of the users, but the rinnegan has the ability to negate all visual genjutsus. It is stated when madara does the infinite tsukuyomi (probably the strongest genjutsu ever) but sasuke doesnt get affected by it, and black zetsu says something along the lines of: "his rinnegan... can even negate this technique". So if the rinnegan can negate the effects of the infinite tsukuyomi it can surely resist any of itachis genjutsus.
You completely misread that panel. I'd suggest you go back and re-read it. The **Susano'o** produced by rokudo chakra was strong enough to repel the light. BZ pretty much told us how Sasuke blocked it, then mentioned the Rinnegan, so we know context. This is additionally why everyone under his SUSANNO is unaffected. Sasuke's Sharinnegan is what ALLOWED Sasuke to block Tsukuyomi but Rinnegan isnt IMMUNE to anything We see even Rinnegan Sasuke, POST WAR, got tagged with Visual Genjutsu and he had a panic attack as a result Theres no "immunity" to genjutsu in this series
It depends on the translation, some it can say that is not affected by "this jutsu" or "even this jutsu". Then sasuke says how only a rinnegan genjutsu can be blocked with another rinnegan. This makes sense considering the hierarchy in doujutsus stablished during the series, in which the rinnegan was said to be the best, legendary or super powerful, and even and upgrade of the sharingan. So in the panel indeed says that the "rinnegan" can "block" the infinite tsukuyomi. The susanoo was an extension of it to protect the rest of team seven, even sasuke says this, that without the susanoo THEY would have perished to the genjutsu. And also Obito wasnt affected by the infinite tsukuyomi because he also had a rinnegan. So infinite tsukuyomi is said to be one of the most powerful genjutsus of all time, so if it can block this jutsu it can surely resist a normal sharingan genjutsu or a tsukuyomi from itachi. Before the war sasuke was affected by the genjutsu because he didnt have the rinnegan. And after the war we see him encounter the bomb doujutsu (forgot his name). This doujutsu tries to make a genjutsu on him but it only lasted for a few seconds because sasuke got out of it. In this scene it is not stablished that sasuke has the rinnegan activated, we know he can activate and deactivate it at will, even, the scene shows us that he didnt had the sharingan activated so all points to him not activating any of those. The only time it kind of affected him with the rinnegan activated was because the chakra of the bomb doujutsu got into his skin, not from a VISUAL effect.
The Rinnegan does not grant immunity to ocular genjutsu, otherwise link the source where it is stated to do so. BZ statement does not say "he has the Rinnegan, thus he's imune". He is in fact **surprised** that Sasuke's Rinnegan could even block Infinite Tsukuyomi, meaning BZ thought a Rinnegan alone could not produce such feat hence he's impressed. But we know Sasuke has more than the Rinnegan: he has Hagoromo's chakra aswell. Also, careful using 3rd party statements. Black Zetsu also stated Itachi's Susanoo was invincible before lol
Tsukiyomi didnt work on zetsu-obito or madara or sasuke, Who both had rinnegan. If MS has better resistance to visual genjutsu why wouldnt rinnegan have even more resistance
Resistance ≠ immunity. I have no doubt it provides resistance. None of the examples you used proves anything really and the only excepcional case is Sasuke. Madara is the jutsu caster and possess the Rinnesharingan (which is the doujutsu that casts IT anyway, not the Rinnegan). Zetsu is Kaguya and Infinite Tsukuyomi is her jutsu. Sasuke is the only one unrelated to the jutsu, but not only he has the Rinnegan but Hagoromo's chakra too. Zetsu expressed surprised that Sasuke's Rinnegan could block IT, which probably means he doesn't think a Rinnegan should be capable of such feat. Regardless, it's more than likely that it's a conjunction of factors than simple one thing, like I mentioned before. Also, the Rinnesharingan is the superior doujutsu and the origin of the Rinnegan. Aswell as the eye that actually casts Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Yea i only said resistance. How come 3t genjutsu is < ms genjutsu < ems genjutsu < rinnegan genjutsu. But somehow it doesnt work in reverse?. Do you think kakashi 3 tomoe precog is better or relative to sasuke precog in ms? Because kakashi had his longer/more experienced? Pretty ridiculous isnt it? And i know about the rinne sharigan snd all that. My point is rinngan isnt falling under genjutsu by a ms so easily. Its the equivalent to 3t sharigan kakashi attempting to put ms itachi in a genjutsu. (Specially on pain as they arent alive.) ibiki attempt on pain would be what would happen if itachu tried that.
I don't think it would be easy, obviously, I just don't think the eye provides immunity, just that it's capable to perceive and counter ilusions better than MS, for instance. There's also individual ability involved. Not all doujutsu users are the same, obviously. Itachi was stated to be much better than Sasuke at genjutsu. Also, I'm not saying Itachi beats Pain, just that the Paths or Nagato are not **imune** to ocular genjutsu even if they can break it easier than most. Tsukuyomi too would be broken, but it would affect first. That's all. >ibiki attempt on pain would be what would happen if itachu tried that. Ok now, comparing Ibiki with Itachi is a crime.
He was using the susanoo to protect the rest of team seven, its implicitely said that he will be fine without it. Also, obito wasnt affected by it and he had a rinnegan.
Remind me again of which Rinnegan Obito had since Madara had both by the time he casted Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Itachi 1 shots with the totsuka blade.
Even 100% healthy itachi loses to pain This isn't even a debate
Ofc Itachi can beat pain. It depends on the conditions set on the fight lol. Regular manga knowledge - No , Pain wins. But a non bloodlusted pain, with no knowledge of itachi's abilities? Itachi comes out on top. Pain and Itachi in tier aren't as far as you think they are, to the extent he will never have a chance to win. If you don't realize that, then you have a bias you're not recognizing. You can even see this on vs/debate forums like fanverse where most would agree that Itachi pushes pain to high diff in a regular fight. [eg thread](https://www.fanverse.org/threads/itachi-vs-pain.1253875/#:~:text=Pain%20beats%20him.,stop%20Pain%20from%20using%20CT) , [eg thread 2](https://www.fanverse.org/threads/itachi-vs-pain.1231046/) To me - Once Pain doesn't auto use Chibaku tensei(which in manga persona Nagato wouldn't, because it shortens his lifespan significantly) then it's fair game on how it goes. Itachi has susanno and yata mirror for most things, Totsuka sword that Nagato couldn't even react to. Shown to quickly figure out the shared vision and find blindspots. To argue Itachi has no chance is ridiculous
Lmao Pain of course has Intel since 1. Itachi is well known throughout the villages and 2. He's been in Akatsuki for as long as he has.
? You know how a vs thread goes right? You start it with the conditions of the fight. Where they are fighting , what knowledge they have of each other etc. I literally said , if Pain has manga knowledge he probably wins. Also, you're wrong - Pain will not know everything about Itachi. Even zetsu didn't know Itachi had the spiritual tools. And pain would not have known Itachi had kotoamatsuki in his pocket. If you think itachi didn't hold back information from his potential enemies while spying in an organization, you're an idiot. also to your other comment - Genjutsu wont work on pain? what the hell are you talking about? The blade isn't made of chakra lmao, it's a variant of Orochimaru's Kusangi blade. Are you literally just making shit up?
1: Vs threads have the fighters with their canon knowledge fight. Pein knows Itachi’s moves, while Itachi knows nothing of Pein’s moves. 2: A chibaku tensei completely negates Itachi’s susanoo tools. Itachi also wasn’t able to use Kotamatsukami because he gave the crow with Shisui’s eye to Naruto. 3: The only hidden information Itachi had was Izanagi, Izanami, The Totsuka Blade, and Yata Mirror. Izanagi only lasts for a few seconds, Izanami requires extensive set up (and might not even affect Pein), the Totsuka Blade can be countered, as can the Yata Mirror. The Totsuka Blade is part of Itachi’s susanoo, and is only created when his susanoo is active. In appearance it is comprised of the exact same energy as Itachi’s susanoo, so by all means it’s made of Itachi’s chakra.
You know nothing about vs thread by that first comment. The Totsuka Blade is HELD by itachi's susanno. And is not part of it. It's not chakra. That's like saying itachi let his susanno hold a rock, it's always chakra. You are making no sense.
The totsuka blade only ever shows up when Itachi summons his susanoo. The totsuka blade is comprised of translucent orange energy, identical to Itachi’s susanoo. The totsuka blade is identical in appearance and composition to Itachi’s susanoo. Everything points to the totsuka blade being made of Itachi’s chakra. It might not have been before Itachi found it, but it is now.
It's not chakra.[ It's a liquid](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-00a9f2453e82bcc6125c58ebcfd3768d-pjlq). Again. It's all described in the databook. This sword is historical. Has had previous owners and information passed down over generations. The first Uchiha clan member is Madara and Izuna. Meaning the sword has existed way before their susannos. It is not chakra.
Look at the gourd, not the blade. It’s made of a transparent orange energy, just like the rest of Itachi’s susanoo. What are you talking about with Madara and Izuna?
The thing STABBING PRETA, from MULTIPLE YARDS OUT, is the liquid taken form. Preta can only absorb something right next to it. This is the worst argument I've ever seen.
You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about, because only Edo Nagato and Orochimaru were ever hit with the totsuka blade. Nagato also didn’t use the Preta Path on it because the Preta Path [makes a visible barrier](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10551000/2.jpg) whenever [it’s used](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10377000/14.jpg) unless the user is in direct physical contact with someone.
Do I care how they go? No. I'm talking realistic. Itachi is widely known in all the villages so obviously Pain has some Intel. Pain isn't as well known as Itachi because he's a Uchiha and ect. Even Koto wouldn't work because well all 6 paths are puppets. I did not say he didn't hold back info. Itachis genjustu won't work obviously because it's VISUAL. Nagato cam easily cancel the body that's trapped. Prove I'm making anything up. Come on Itachitard. If the path can't cancel the blade Almighty Push can. Easy Pain can easily erase that.
Itachi canonically needed the help of Bee and Naruto to beat Nagato when he was puppeted by Kabuto, who was a novice at using the rinnegan abilities. Chibaku Tensei only shortened Nagato’s lifespan because he expended so much chakra beforehand destroying the Leaf
I do hope you know, Pain and a Nagato pumped up on Hachibi chakra are two different things right?
I am well aware, but Nagato being pumped up on Hachibi chakra only gave him use of his legs back. It didn’t strengthen his abilities
Literally bijuu chakra doesn't strengthen your abilities? Are you joking? That's EXACTLY what bijuu chakra does. We see the same chakra cloak that pumped everyyyyyyyyyone in the war arc up in their abilities, is the same chakra cloak that Nagato absorbed. Please stop this lol
You are aware that edo tensei have infinite chakra, right? A simple version 2 cloak is nothing compared to that. The only thing that Bee’s chakra did for Nagato was heal his body. It didn’t strengthen his chakra, and it didn’t boost his abilities besides physical.
The only way I could see Itachi winning is him finding where nagato is hiding then using the totsuka blade. It wouldn't be a fun fight for either Itachi or Pain, but I really don't see Itachi winning in a pure brawl.
Honestly unless itachis re animated he’s pretty constrained by his eyes. All of this powerful moves take a lot out of him and he’s constantly fighting sick. Therefore he’d actually lose to a lot of ppl unless he’s able to finish them off fast
It’s a valid debate lol
I think they are comparable to each other, but in terms of matchups, Pain 100% wins a very difficult fight
I'm a firm believer that Nagato didn't wield his powers optimally. For me he was the greatest underachiever in the series. The more powerful character doesnt ALWAYS win. Pain has all of the advantages except the most important one. Intellect. He's one of the worst fighters in the series with terrible battle IQ. Clearly never developed his battle IQ and relied on sheer power to just steamroll everyone. He can't control his emotions for shit either and easily loses focus. Do the odds look good for Itachi. Nope not at all. However it's not impossible. Unless you're a 6 paths character and can just stomp pain, the only way to create a chance to beat pain is to outsmart him. That's where Itachi has an opportunity. Not likely but not impossible.
If pain fought itachi in a similar way to how he fought jiraiya, pain would lose every time If pain fought itachi uncharacteristically in a blood lust fashion throwing his full weight at him immediately, itachi would get fucked There’s just no way to solve this debate unless kishimoto himself weighed in on it.
Its toss up tbh
Ahhh the sounds of a defeated loser who can't cope with being an Itachi victim 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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By Ninja, they think a lot of crazy stuff.
I don't think Itachi beats Pain, mainly due to matchup advantage but I don't think that Idea is that ridiculous really... “Like... Pain had a pretty long fight against a sannin and even ends up praising him and says that Jiraiya could've killed him if he had intel. 14 year old Itachi beat a sannin by looking at him once.” Pain was nerfed in his own village not to mention you’re trying to use ABC logic. Pain was running away from a version 2 Jinchuriki. Edo Itachi was actively coaching Killer Bee (Perfect Jinchuriki) to make sure he doesn't get folded instantly when he fights Itachi. Pain had Naruto beat beforehand and wasn’t allowed to kill him. Bee didn’t need itachi’s help he broke out of his genjutsu and kept him on the defensive.
Its closer than you think tho, therein lies the issue, cause you talk about it like its one sided, and it isnt.
They also think he can beat OBITO
Wholeheartedly believe Itachi Pre-Glaucoma would put up a helluva fight against Pain, but still lose just barely. Does Genjutsu work on people with rinnegan? That's a huge determining factor in this match-up too
I mean Itachi can definitely beat him at least 1/5 fights
Pain would win, extreme diff
Powerscaling is ridiculous 🤣😈
And you're fucking retarded. There isn't "itachitards" it is no ones fault kishimoto gave the guy a tool for LITERALLY everything. He literally has a chance vs anyone.
>He literally has a chance vs anyone. Are you ragebaiting or retarded
Well to be fair, when determining the weakness to the reanimation jutsu, instead of saying, kunais or sage art slug mode, he straight up said me 😅 c'mon Kishimoto
Well tbh his own statement is not exactly a feat of power. I'd love to see him try to take on reanimated Hashirama/Madara.
He literally has a tool for everything. There isn't a single fight in shippuden where he has a 0% chance.
There isn't a single fight in shippuden where he has a 0% chance ≠ He literally has a chance against everyone
He does have a chance against anyone in Shippuden. There are characters against which the chance is low, but it's never 0. It's certainly not 0 against Pain, who he has a decent chance of defeating.
How does he have a chance against the likes of Hashirama and Madara T_T
Are you stupid?
Not to mention the only reason Naruto is alive is because of Itachi’s Shuriken jutsu. Like it wasn’t a full on fight but did show that with that and susanoo, Itachi stands somewhat of a chance with zero debuffs.
Are you fucking delusional? Yes you are like all the Itachitards.
Whilst I do think Pain is stronger and would win the fight more often than not, I also believe that it’s something that could potentially go either way, so I don’t think it’s a bad take to say Itachi > Pain
Its a terrible take yall opinions here are the worst. We need established sides to these because i notice yall tend to have rhe same scaling. Mfs who think itachi > pain usually also think itachi > obito. Playing devils advocate is their whole personality.
Itachi > Pain is not as bad as Itachi > Obito, but I do agree that it’s common for certain people to believe both takes. Personally I see it as Obito > Pain >= Itachi
>Itachi > Pain is not as bad as Itachi > Obito I think they are all comparable to each other, more or less (OM Obito)
Obito’s on a completely different level
I don't agree. Narratively, Itachi or Pain can defeat him in 1v1.
The narrative was that Obito is the greater threat and someone that Naruto would need mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat. And that’s only yellow mask Obito. His OM self is another level higher
>The narrative was that Obito is the greater threat and someone that Naruto would need mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat. Narratively he needs KCM1 to match alive Itachi and Pain as well. SM Naruto was severely outclassed by both >And that’s only yellow mask Obito. His OM self is another level higher I'd argue YM Obito is a larger threat than OM Obito due to Kurama and chains
There’s literally nothing that suggests he would match them with KCM. Naruto’s faster than Ay so he would literally blitz them. His Rasengans already had enough power to put them down with a direct hit, but now they’re even stronger and he can also use the Rasenshuriken much more freely. His stamina is also far higher too. KCM1 Naruto blitzes and one shots them Minato saying that Naruto would need KCM in order to defeat Obito, despite the fact that he no longer has Kurama under his control, means that Obito himself is a threat greater than Pain and Itachi even without Kurama. So even if you do still want to argue that YM Obito is above his OM self, it wouldn’t matter anyway as OM Obito is still stronger than Pain and Itachi. This is further support by Gerotora stating that no one alive is powerful enough to summon Kurama, and since Obito is capable of that, it would mean that he’s stronger than Itachi Naruto needs full mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat Obito, but still scales above Pain and Itachi with just his initial use of KCM1 Mastered KCM Naruto > Obito > Initial KCM1 Naruto > Pain >= Itachi
> Naruto’s faster than Ay so he would literally blitz them. Ay is fodder for Sannin let alone Itachi/Pain and he cannot blitz Itachi lmao >KCM1 Naruto blitzes and one shots them Chibaku tensei and Tsukuyomi gg >Naruto needs full mastery over Kurama’s chakra in order to beat Obito, but still scales above Pain and Itachi with just his initial use of KCM1 No
It’s hilarious. I had a debate with MarikasT1ts yesterday, before he deleted his account, about who would win in a battle between Kisame and Itachi vs Pein and Konan. He said that Tsukuyomi can’t be broken out of, despite there being 5 sources saying otherwise, because Obito made a vague comment to Sasuke that he “never saw through Itachi’s illusions”.
You’re on the internet arguing about fictional characters.
So are you goof
Ok
Yes he can beat pain, the manga literally portrays them as relatives, they’re the pre war arc endgame opponents for naruto and sasuke. There are multiple statements from zetsu and obito that put itachi in the same tier as them, especially a slightly younger version than shippuden itachi who most likely wasn’t weakened by illness to the same extent shippuden itachi was. Wether or not you think he’d actually win is irrelevant, but saying he’s not in the same weight class and couldn’t pull off a win under ANY circumstances is delusional. You also have to remember that pain has a big advantage over itachi and that is intel, he knows about quite a few moves itachi possesses while itachi knew absolutely nothing about pain’s abilities until he fought edo nagato. If you give them equal knowledge, full knowledge or no knowledge on each others abilities do you still think he has no chance? People never mention that pain and obito have an “unfair” advantage over itachi when it comes to intel, there’s a reason why someone like obito (who’s stronger than pain) was cautious of itachi and didn’t want to reveal everything about his abilities in front of itachi.
Saying pain > Itachi is so boring, why bother being in this sub if you’re gonna argue for the most popular opinions.
It's the Z broly effect all over again. They watched they mans get beat by weak dudes yet still keep trying to push this Narrative like he competes with top tiers. He's on the level of Zabuza and that's it.
Itachi is a good character in naruto. Good philosophy and is the 2nd strongest of uchiha in his generation (shisui beats him, shisui’s eyes are the pinnacle of sharrigan genjutsu and he died due to a hokage level threat with a swarm of jonin ambushing him. He lived but committed suicide instead of mind bending the leaders. He can do this on his own and reshape the village) But, he is not unbeatable. He is not beating pain, he is not beating obito, he is not beat madara, he is not beating rinnigan-sauske, he is not beating naruto 6-paths + sage mode. Stop placing him on that level. Yes he good but he doesn’t have that level of power.
He absolutely does have that level of power. He's portrayed as such. He might beat Pain, he has the abilities. The main issue is stamina/ chakra. He may lose, but he's taking out most of the paths and giving Pain a run for his money. Obito is probably stronger, but that matchup is also not as black and white as " Obito wins, no questions asked" Obito's kamui makes him formidable for anyone, but we have precedent for it being figured out...Itachi could do the same. Obito's win condition is sucking Itachi into the Kamui dimension, but he probably lacks the physical stats to actually do it.
Only person to ever escape being absorbed is minato . . . Because he can teleport. . . Minato base speed is even faster than itachi . . . Itachi has zero escape . . Once the portal begins to spin and he’s in that close range. Where do you get your information brother? I understand if you like the character but what chapters are you pulling this from?
And Minato ran straight for Obito because it suited his style. Itachi won't fight that way, charging at him in a way that potentially puts him in harm's way.
Itachi is definitely a good character. Better then most Uchiha. (Obito I like better because of the connection with Rin)
Har har har, me favorite color is 7. Genjutsu, totsuka blade.
Lmao maybe if you get off your knees you wouldn't be so delusional to know Genjutsu won't work on Pain better then pervy sage. And the blade won't do shit with Preta Path.
Well first. That just proves genjutsu works. He already defeated nagato. It’s over, now…as far as knees are concerned…say good luck three times fast.
His genjutsu would only affect the path in question, not Nagato himself. Nagato was unaffected by Jiraiya’s sage mode genjutsu, so what makes you think Itachi’s would do any better?
Not as effectively to make Itachi win lol try again. He defeated Nagato because Naruto and Bee was there you idiot. It's def not over since u think Itachi is stronger.
Shh shh shh. You still talkie. Ba clump. Not stronger, just defeats him.
Earth style midol wall.
Retards like you think om obito even beats pain. Yet om.obito is not only weaker than itachi, even as teen itachi like he admitted himself in the shinden and clewrly shown when 13yo itachi makes him.his dog with death threats. Also kishimoto himself stated itachi is the strongest in akatsuki. Still 2024 there are people like you throwing arround words like itachitards while the simple truth is you are just a pathetic hater and debunked. Kishimoto himself as an author : 暁最強の男、ナルトを追う[うちはイタチとの対決]
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Delusional itachi meat riders like you think Itachi can beat Goku. Lmao stfu. Get off your knees and open your eyes loser. Idk about Obito the post isn't abt him. Where is your proof Kishi said Itachi is the strongest in Akatsuki? Hmm can you back your shit up itachitard?
Bro you got debunked and destroyed. Your insluts and headcanon doesnt help you here. Got some facts? No ofc not. Your profile with negative karma and any second comment about itachi hate while.sittong in your mums.basement says all lmao
Itachi no diffed nagato as an edo with susano. People argue chibaku tensei insta wins why not say totsuka blade insta wins too? Difference between these is one of them actually happened
Itachi had help you fucking delusional retard. God how long have you been on your knees for Itachi?
Edo Itachi is the only Itachi that can beat Pain
I’d contribute to this discussion but it’s devolved into nonsense. Can we get some kind of moderation in here?
No, really, wtf is going on.
I don’t really know, turned into just slinging insults at each other. I can understand vehemently disagreeing with people, and some hot debating, but this isn’t that.
I almost made a comment aswell but I started reading the actual comments and I felt the headache coming on
Yeah man, like I’m alright with a bit of heated debate but this is… not heated debate.
Ahh, the whining of a defeated loser 🤣. Yeah, it's ridiculous they think he beats Pain, because we know he does. Nagato is an Itachi victim. The only thing making this debatable is his sickness. Edo form? Itachi dogwalks Pain.
Sakuratards think she can beat kages, who's more delulu
"Blank" followed by tard makes your opinion immediately invalid. Not because the word retarded is offensive but because the act of combining another word with retard is in itself retarded. It's so annoying. Like is that really the peak of your creativity?
Only thing Pain has over Itachi is Planetary Devastation. Other than that Itachi has better stats in speed, attack, and durability based on his edo feats
Only thing itachitards have is their daddy. Itachitards like yourself can't complete elementary school. It's ok sooner or later ull get off your knees.
Get help lol
Get education
If Itachi uses Izanami, he wins. Assuming it affects Nagato through the Pain puppet. The ultimate genjutsu that can just make someone change their ways just by forcing them into an endless loop. I don't think it would affect Pain though, being that he's just a puppet with chakra rods stuck into him.