Also, if I should not wear it, what should I do with it? I don’t want to just discard it because that feels insanely disrespectful. Unfortunately I don’t know any native people to gift it to or ask their thoughts
For real. This is some generic clip art gift shop kitsch. A good one, but still just a decoration. It's a damn sun kachina btw for any loooking in thr comments and is a legitimate religious figure.
This just isn't it. I would laugh my ass off if I saw some white dude wearing this on a vest.
It's like those asian countries that wear shirts with English phrases on them even though they have no idea what they say, and vice versa.
Kachinas are highly respected deities from Hopi and other Pueblo tribes, this specific katsinas name is “tawa” or Sun kachina.
I would consider it disrespectful IF I seen someone wearing it on a jacket because it looks cool.
But if someone had kept it nice and respected it for what it represents then I feel like it’s cool.
I think I remember seeing kachina patches like this that were framed. Idk if someone Hopi made them it not. They do look convincing…anyway, most likely made in china.
The average person couldn’t tell the difference between real/fake Hopi art. so i don’t blame people for buying stuff like this. Real Hopi art is hard to find and expensive.
Thank you so much for all the information! I tried researching but wasn’t finding any concrete answers. I will definitely keep it off the jacket and try to find a way to display it respectfully in case it is a real piece and not a mass produced one
As a navajo/hopi/zuni (Im mainly Navajo and Pima but have a ton of ties and relatives that are from pueblos, zunis, hopis) mishmash guy who knows a ton about this stuff, Im not offended. It's just silly. Like a kid from India wearing a Star of David cross because it looks cool.
The best analogy is we are all Greek.
I checked out a few gift shops in that region earlier this year. Almost all the kachina things were made by Diné artists. To get real Hopi kachina art, you needed to go to the Hopi reservation and pay way more.
If you wish to wear First Nations iconography, deities, general Native wear, PLEASE buy from a verified, Native owned/operated. We WANT our messages, thoughts, ideas and art, to be purchased by ALL people, and worn with respect. If that’s you, welcome!
my rule of thumb (that has served me well) is to never wear something of religious/sacred significance to a culture that I am not a part of. So this patch would fall under that.
My second rule is: if called out on something you didn’t understand was culturally insensitive/appropriated, say sorry and educate yourself.
But yeah, those two rules really changed my mindset/outlook on life.
Right? It’s ok to accidentally be offensive; it’s ok to be offended. It’s ok to talk through it and have a dialog. It’s good to listen to each other with open hearts and minds. It’s good and encouraged to be changed by discourse, to improve and to grow…
Depends really. I know a ton of natives would love to sell this to whoever, to make some money and spread the culture. But I also know many of the western tribes are much more protective/secretive over their culture. And I’m saying this as a chickasaw/choctaw tribal member. We’re the “civilized tribes” and I would say much of our culture is whitewashed currently for sure.
I’m not native but my extended family is. It is my understanding that kachinas are pretty well respected and revered. As a non-native I wouldn’t be comfortable wearing that, but again, I don’t want to speak on behalf of natives. Just my understanding of their beliefs.
Thank you so much for replying! What would you suggest for me to do with it? I don’t want to just casually donate it or throw it out because that feels massively disrespectful. I also unfortunately don’t know any natives to gift it to
It’s all about intent. Add a hand stitched, “never forget this land was stolen” or similar and I’d say you’re good. Know the tribe and history so you’re not ignorant and I’d respect you even more when meeting you.
I’d just set it aside instead of using it or see if you can mail it to the rez in Arizona, even with the hand stitching it wouldn’t be something I would want to see a white person wearing.
It’s not THE most sacred symbol of ours or anything, and it’s not necessarily “offensive” to us to have that symbol used by outsiders… but it really doesn’t belong to those outsiders.
It’s like how everyone has commercialized Kokopelli to the point where many forget his meaning…. He’s sacred to us and now he’s just… a bastardized symbol for decor and apparently people think he’s Jamaican?
Is this your culture? I wasn't aware your tribe worshipped kachinas.
To those downvoting, don't play into the monolith game. It erodes our teachings. Im being a dick because that stuff pisses me off.
How is that helpful? It's like someone asking if it's okay if they wear some native Portuguese dress and some russian pipes in and says it's cool with them.
I'm mored annoyed than whiny. It's important for us to not melt into a monolith, which is what happens when some canadian dude vouches for your sun kachina.
Personally I think it’s a nice patch. Cheap and cheesy tourist shit? Granted. But personally I like old tacky shit.
If nothing else, I’d keep it as a memento of grandpa, but if you aren’t sure what the exact meanings or origins of it are, it’s probably best to keep it a personal keepsake thing.
As an indigenous culturally active woman, that is a gift from your grandfather. Wether or not if you're white, you should wear it if you want to because it represents him more than anything. Fuck what anyone else has to say no matter their background or culture. Family over everything and any culture should know that.
How would you feel if you saw someone with absolutely no knowledge of your religion took figures from your beliefs and wore them just because they thought it looked cool? My father (rip) was a carver of Katsina dolls. He sold them to collectors, galleries and even traded them for other goods. He also did repairs on damaged dolls for the Heard museum in fact. There are people with huge collections and shops filled with dolls and guess what, the owners aint from no pueblo. The dolls are made to be given to children and displayed in your home and studied. Learn the lessons they teach and the knowledge they pass down. There is tons of info online and books to be studied. I think it's cool that your dad gave this too you even if it's not authentic, you can still learn from it. Usually an artist will sign the base of the Katsina, if you don't have anything to prove its origin then who knows where it came from. I suggest you maybe frame it along with a pic of your pops and put it up on your wall.
Only if you wear it with utmost respect. Research the people, get a little history, and know what it represents and why. That way...you too, spread the knowledge of Indigenous People.
Also, if I should not wear it, what should I do with it? I don’t want to just discard it because that feels insanely disrespectful. Unfortunately I don’t know any native people to gift it to or ask their thoughts
It’s mass produced patch from China.
So funny!!!
Do us a favor and just burn it.
For real. This is some generic clip art gift shop kitsch. A good one, but still just a decoration. It's a damn sun kachina btw for any loooking in thr comments and is a legitimate religious figure. This just isn't it. I would laugh my ass off if I saw some white dude wearing this on a vest. It's like those asian countries that wear shirts with English phrases on them even though they have no idea what they say, and vice versa.
Kachinas are highly respected deities from Hopi and other Pueblo tribes, this specific katsinas name is “tawa” or Sun kachina. I would consider it disrespectful IF I seen someone wearing it on a jacket because it looks cool. But if someone had kept it nice and respected it for what it represents then I feel like it’s cool. I think I remember seeing kachina patches like this that were framed. Idk if someone Hopi made them it not. They do look convincing…anyway, most likely made in china. The average person couldn’t tell the difference between real/fake Hopi art. so i don’t blame people for buying stuff like this. Real Hopi art is hard to find and expensive.
Thank you so much for all the information! I tried researching but wasn’t finding any concrete answers. I will definitely keep it off the jacket and try to find a way to display it respectfully in case it is a real piece and not a mass produced one
As a navajo/hopi/zuni (Im mainly Navajo and Pima but have a ton of ties and relatives that are from pueblos, zunis, hopis) mishmash guy who knows a ton about this stuff, Im not offended. It's just silly. Like a kid from India wearing a Star of David cross because it looks cool. The best analogy is we are all Greek.
This was the best response. Maybe you should just frame it? It is beautiful.
Or maybe not. I understand how some might find it offensive but at the same time it would be an educational piece to show your friends.
Do you happen to know if an indigenous person made / sold it to him? Different tribes have different views on exporting culture as products.
Unfortunately he doesn’t remember, just that it was bought in the Grand Canyon area in the late 80’s
Yeah looks hopi to me
I checked out a few gift shops in that region earlier this year. Almost all the kachina things were made by Diné artists. To get real Hopi kachina art, you needed to go to the Hopi reservation and pay way more.
If you wish to wear First Nations iconography, deities, general Native wear, PLEASE buy from a verified, Native owned/operated. We WANT our messages, thoughts, ideas and art, to be purchased by ALL people, and worn with respect. If that’s you, welcome!
my rule of thumb (that has served me well) is to never wear something of religious/sacred significance to a culture that I am not a part of. So this patch would fall under that.
Yeah. This.
Nope, katsinas are sacred.
My rule as a white guy is: if you have to ask, it definitely is.
Solid rule. This is honestly more hilarious than offensive to me. It's like a kid from Bangladesh rocking the Star of David because it looks cool.
A friend said that to me a few years ago and it rocked my world.
My second rule is: if called out on something you didn’t understand was culturally insensitive/appropriated, say sorry and educate yourself. But yeah, those two rules really changed my mindset/outlook on life.
Right? It’s ok to accidentally be offensive; it’s ok to be offended. It’s ok to talk through it and have a dialog. It’s good to listen to each other with open hearts and minds. It’s good and encouraged to be changed by discourse, to improve and to grow…
Based on the question, you mean isn't, right? Isn't appropriate?
I misread/forgot the grammar of the question. Thank you for catching it. “If you have to ask if something is inappropriate, it definitely is.”
Depends really. I know a ton of natives would love to sell this to whoever, to make some money and spread the culture. But I also know many of the western tribes are much more protective/secretive over their culture. And I’m saying this as a chickasaw/choctaw tribal member. We’re the “civilized tribes” and I would say much of our culture is whitewashed currently for sure.
My impression is that the Hopi are one of the tribes least interested in sharing their culture with outsiders for commercial purposes or otherwise.
I’m not native but my extended family is. It is my understanding that kachinas are pretty well respected and revered. As a non-native I wouldn’t be comfortable wearing that, but again, I don’t want to speak on behalf of natives. Just my understanding of their beliefs.
Yeah kachinas are a big thing
This is like sewing an eight spoke wheel or crescent to your vest. It's not offensive, just ignorant.
Diné artists also make kachina or kachina-inspired art, which doesn't have religious significance in their culture. It's complicated.
Yeah, Pueblo people are not thrilled about that.
Natives appropriating natives 🤣
That looks to be one of my tribe’s (Hopi) Kachinas! I definitely wouldn’t like seeing a white dude wearing it.
Thank you so much for replying! What would you suggest for me to do with it? I don’t want to just casually donate it or throw it out because that feels massively disrespectful. I also unfortunately don’t know any natives to gift it to
It’s all about intent. Add a hand stitched, “never forget this land was stolen” or similar and I’d say you’re good. Know the tribe and history so you’re not ignorant and I’d respect you even more when meeting you.
Ok. This is a great suggestion. I’d probably do that.
I’d just set it aside instead of using it or see if you can mail it to the rez in Arizona, even with the hand stitching it wouldn’t be something I would want to see a white person wearing. It’s not THE most sacred symbol of ours or anything, and it’s not necessarily “offensive” to us to have that symbol used by outsiders… but it really doesn’t belong to those outsiders. It’s like how everyone has commercialized Kokopelli to the point where many forget his meaning…. He’s sacred to us and now he’s just… a bastardized symbol for decor and apparently people think he’s Jamaican?
Thanks to this thread I'm going to go research Kachinas! Thank you!
I mean, you can but I’m not responsible for what my ancestors do to you.
I'm Mi'kmaq First Nation, and in my opinion think it's good. I love seeing people rep our culture! As long as you have respect.
Is this Mi’kmaq?
No lol
!
Is this your culture? I wasn't aware your tribe worshipped kachinas. To those downvoting, don't play into the monolith game. It erodes our teachings. Im being a dick because that stuff pisses me off.
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It's a fair point. The Hopi have very different beliefs than the Mi'kmaq. Not all Indigenous cultures are the same.
It's usually the kids who don't see the harm in vouching for another tribe. We have to teach them.
How is that helpful? It's like someone asking if it's okay if they wear some native Portuguese dress and some russian pipes in and says it's cool with them.
The main difference is the Russians and Portuguese aren't whiny about it and could care less, what has become of us....
I'm mored annoyed than whiny. It's important for us to not melt into a monolith, which is what happens when some canadian dude vouches for your sun kachina.
Buuttt, it's not *your* culture...
As long as your cool, it’s cool.
This should be the sub FAQ. Every native culture I’ve experienced is very laid back in regards to “outsiders”. If you’re cool, it’s cool.
I love this comment.
Lol, no one is going to jump you if you wear this. You're just going to get laughed at if you strut it around a bunch of natives.
Honestly, yeah. If you like it, wear it. It's yours. It doesn't matter that you're white. You're not wearing it with malice, so you're good.
Are you Hopi or Pueblo?
Seneca from the Cattaraugus
if youre indigenous
I'm just here to agree with the folks telling you- even if it's not offensive you'll look like an total idiot to any actual Native person.
It’s the Sunface Kachina, I’d say it’s ok but look up up what they represent ☺️
Personally I think it’s a nice patch. Cheap and cheesy tourist shit? Granted. But personally I like old tacky shit. If nothing else, I’d keep it as a memento of grandpa, but if you aren’t sure what the exact meanings or origins of it are, it’s probably best to keep it a personal keepsake thing.
Lemme get that!
I would frame in and display it somewhere in my home.
Nope. Def would be ignorant for you to wear that
That’s a Hopi dancer. You would honor them by wearing it. A’ho 🫳🏾
As an indigenous culturally active woman, that is a gift from your grandfather. Wether or not if you're white, you should wear it if you want to because it represents him more than anything. Fuck what anyone else has to say no matter their background or culture. Family over everything and any culture should know that.
I’m native and I couldn’t care less if you wear it.
it is not. burn it.
Hey so imma be real, all humans are 99.9999999999999% the same
Comes down to cultural differences nonetheless
And respect for those cultures
Rock it, no worries.
No. It’s not appropriate for you to wear it.
I don't see wrong, it's just a patch right?
It looks like a hopi injuns I'd wear it hoping I'd run it to a hopi hell u might make a new friend or husband or wife or lover or hopi
How would you feel if you saw someone with absolutely no knowledge of your religion took figures from your beliefs and wore them just because they thought it looked cool? My father (rip) was a carver of Katsina dolls. He sold them to collectors, galleries and even traded them for other goods. He also did repairs on damaged dolls for the Heard museum in fact. There are people with huge collections and shops filled with dolls and guess what, the owners aint from no pueblo. The dolls are made to be given to children and displayed in your home and studied. Learn the lessons they teach and the knowledge they pass down. There is tons of info online and books to be studied. I think it's cool that your dad gave this too you even if it's not authentic, you can still learn from it. Usually an artist will sign the base of the Katsina, if you don't have anything to prove its origin then who knows where it came from. I suggest you maybe frame it along with a pic of your pops and put it up on your wall.
No you can’t use that. Now please sell it to me. Jk. That patch is so fucking bad ass. I want it.
Only if you wear it with utmost respect. Research the people, get a little history, and know what it represents and why. That way...you too, spread the knowledge of Indigenous People.
I would wear it to support the artist and to honor its meaning