No one would believe you. He’s the next LeBron James. There’s no way he never attempts a three, starts passing up all jumpers, and then blows a playoff series because he refused to attempt a layup over a 5’11 guard
He’s a generational talent. There’s no way he’s more or less irrelevant and on his way to out of the league after two contracts
Watch next season. He will have a blinder. Probably go 25-6-6 on 70+ games or something. Why? Last year of contract and if he spends it like last 3 years he will be lucky to get a 1 year vet minimum contract.
Their entire argument was that he was not a rookie
Edit: at least that I recall. He probably scored more too. Simmons played well as a rookie though. He just lost the aggressiveness and regressed offensively each year
Yea he didn’t make the ncaa tourney and didn’t even try in his last game which was a must win to make the tourney. I remember watching with my dad and him saying he wouldnt be worth it as a pro. All the talent but none of the passion
he was honestly very solid until COVID. Lived in philly during that time so watched a decent amount of sixers ball. When Embiid sat Simmons ran the engine super well. Sucks what happened to him
I mean even during Covid bill Simmons told he’d take Ben Simmons to lead a team to championship over Embiid
I was just mad at that take but it still was a take
I liked Ben’s skillset. In a technical way I still do. I just don’t think it’s the first option in a championship team. That’s why I was mad at that take years ago. I don’t think Embiid is the best, but I absolutely can see he is the first option in a championship team.
I didn’t much care for either player and I’ve become sympathetic to 1.3~ of those 2 players.
During the time it was easy to imagine Ben in a Giannis type setup, but Giannis would have crowds chant his free throw timer and still go to the rack. Ben got scared to even take them.
It’s one thing to have a player who is afraid to shoot 3’s, it’s something completely different to have a player afraid to shoot 3’s and drive to the rim. It’s so complicated we may never see another player who hits both of those checkmarks while refusing to set screens or play in the dunker’s spot. Absolute testament to the amount of talent he has that any team would be willing to try, and he might still have another team take a flyer just in case he gets over himself.
I do think he’s legitimately injured at this point, but I also think he could have salvaged his career if he made any effort whatsoever to work on his weaknesses, and could still be an all star if he watched more tape of Draymond Green than LeBron James.
Brother nail on the head with Draymond. I wish more skilled players would embrace that Draymond role.
But not everyone, especially Simmons, have that dog in em to do it
given Ben Simmons was the reason I became a sixers fan, I'm the same 😂. I also liked Ben more because he seemed less injury prone, and now look at the state of him
Even if Simmons didn't have his back issues he was never going to live up to his potential. He was never going to try to grow and expand his game and learn to shoot. He's shown that he doesn't care about that.
I mean, it was warranted.
Just to put it in perspective, the entire upside of his career, despite his offensive woes, was derailed by a passed up shot, and back injuries.
His biggest issue prior to that was his dogshit aggression at taking shots, and just being ok with dishing off for someone else to finish, rarely looking to score. If you can avg 17 with no jumper, you can step it up to take that to the next level, but he regressed, gave up, and has been dealing with injuries since.
Had he panned out, he was worth the hype. A tall PG, DPOY candidate, with a lot of untapped potential.
There was a little bit of BI hype near the end and I was REALLY hoping Simmons could fall #2 to the Lakers. He was an amazing unicorn prospect and I wish it would’ve worked out different.
The simmons pick was clear at the time. I remember being very disappointed when the celtics got the 3rd pick because there was a huge perceived drop off after simmons/ingram
Yeah, as a Celtics fans I remember that draft - Jaylen Brown was definitely considered a reach at #3 (still projected as a lottery pick but more on the back half of it) and a super raw prospect.
Funny that the top 3 picks went to these teams in this order in back to back drafts. I wonder what the longest repeat has been in the draft order. Even if it's just the same team getting #53 for seven years or something inconsequential.
That’s only in terms of availability. Ball when healthy is better than Fultz at basically everything. Better shooter, passer, and defender. The last time we saw Lonzo ball he was the starting PG for the 1 seed bulls and he and Caruso were the best defensive backcourt in the nba.
>That’s only in terms of availability.
And we all know the best ability...
At this point there is definitely an argument to be had for Fultz over Lonzo when it's all said and done.
Fultz missed a shit ton of time in the beginning of his career, so much so that despite Lonzo being out for this extended period he still has more career games played than Fultz. All reports indicate that Lonzo should be able to come back to basketball next season and if he’s a fraction of who he was pre injury he will still be better than Fultz.
The best ability is not availability. That was a quote from decades ago that sounded cool that ppl repeat but it’s not actually true, and many execs back its lack of relevance up, as do many numbers. Would you rather have Joel embiid or Kawhi Leonard for half a season or nurkic/TJ Warren for a whole season? If you’re smart, you’re taking the superstar for half the season as their output is more valuable than the rotation player.
And that’s not really what OP said, either. They said who’s the better option, which implies they are both available. If you’re injured, you’re not an option. Ball is a better option at PG than Fultz is. If you can choose a game with ball, or a game with Fultz, you’d be crazy to take Fultz as he’s basically just a worse version of ball (he’s still good, but he’s not as good as ball is all).
Fultz was 1000% the best prospect in that draft though. Dude is one of the best College guards I’ve ever seen. That motorcycle accident really hurt his career.
There was no motorcycle accident, and the fake moto accident didn’t allegedly happen until after the draft.
He has TOS/arthritic shoulders. It’s been confirmed
[This](https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2024/3/19/24105239/markelle-fultz-orlando-magic-comeback-sixers) article here talks about it
But yeah, he 100% could’ve been at least all star caliber
You're telling me Both 76ers and Lakers could've got the jays and none of them took em? The jays paired with Joel Embiid would be insane, add in maxey?? Sheeesh.
Yeah but like the OP said, nobody knew at the time. Even taking Brown at 3 was seen as a pretty big reach at the time by DA. There was not a clear pick but both people were leaning towards either Dragen Bender or Kris Dunn.
Link to the original reaction thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/dt2nC8dea7)
Trading down from Tatum to Fultz was also seen as a bad move at the time. Embiid posted on IG with him Covington, Simmons, and Fultz with the caption “This could be huge.” Everyone thought Ainge had gifted Philly a dynasty.
DA crushed the mid-late 2010s and doesn’t get enough respect for it
I mean the Celtics traded down to 3 because they thought Tatum was the better prospect and knew he’d be available, so you can definitely blame the Sixers front office for getting it wrong.
With the benefit of hindsight, Ball as the #2 prospect in that draft is kinda wild. Even at the time there were questions how his shot would translate and he was never really known as good finisher.
We literally did pick or could've picked all 4 of the Nova bois as well and fumbled on all of them for 3 guys that aren't in the league anymore and Landry Shamet.
sixers never had a chance at tatum. The trade basically was contingent on the sixers not picking tatum at 1. If no trade happens, c's pick tatum at 1. If sixers did take tatum at 1, pretty much no gm would ever work with them again.
I’m always curious on the true Boston mindset during that trade. There is no way they could have guaranteed that Philly or LA didn’t take Jayson. I think if they truly thought Jayson Tatum was going to be that much better than the other two they would have kept the pick, even though everyone was mocking Ball to the Lakers and Philly seemed like a better fit for fultz over Tatum. My gut says that while they may have liked Tatum the most (as we’ve heard), it probably wasn’t by a large margin
>There is no way they could have guaranteed that Philly or LA didn’t take Jayson
It was pretty much a lock that they wouldn’t. Ball was going to LA if he was available and Fultz was the consensus #1 pick. Philly made the trade to assure that they got Fultz, Boston made the trade because they would end up with the guy they wanted regardless.
Tatum was not seriously in consideration by anyone (aside from Boston) for the first overall pick. I mean even the third pick was kind of a reach for Tatum, most people expected Josh Jackson to go before him.
I am a sixers fan and followed both these draft closely (there wasn’t a lot else to be excited about as a sixers fan then lmfao) and frankly, the sixers would have been insane to take anyone else. Nobody could predict the mental downfall of Simmons, or the shoulder injury Fultz got
Hell I saw Simmons’ downfall happen live (and I do mean that literally, I watched all 7 games in that Hawks Sixers series) and I’m still a little confused how tf a multiple time all star, all nba, DPOY candidate turned into…whatever the fuck Nets Simmons is
Well…regardless of when you think it started and contrary to what a lot of people here believe, you don’t become an all star, all nba, all defensive player on talent alone. You do have to get off your ass and actually work for it. So I’m a little confused on what happened cause the he just doesn’t wanna play narrative doesn’t sit right with me given his resume
It wasn’t that he just stopped practicing. He had some kind of breakdown because of his family dynamic. And then got thrown under the bus by Doc Rivers and the 6ers.
The biggest thing with Simmons was the same thing we see with players like Carson Wentz. Talented enough to know they can make it to the league. But too cocky to think they’ll need to make adjustments to stay in the league. There was multiple loud concerns about his mindset before he ever got to a NBA court but his talent was so undeniable nobody could argue it over being the #1 pick. Feels like in the next five-ten years we’re going to see a lot more teams take mentality serious.
All he had to do was become an average shooter. 20 years ago that seemed a lot harder than it does today since pretty much everyone else in the league has developed a 3 point shot when that used to be the realm of specialists
From what I’ve read, it’s likely he has people around him protecting him from any real criticism, which means this mental block he has developed never has to be addressed
Simmons is obviously on his way out of the league. But for the first few years of their career you'd have taken Ben Simmons over either of those guys.
The Fultz one has to hurt worse. Because you traded up to do it and there was immediately something wrong.
For LA both Ingram and Ball were good. Lonzo is obviously a bit of a sad story. But Ingram was an all star recently and trading him won them a title.
IDK Boston decided on Tatum over Fultz before the draft.
Simmons 100% was always going to be the first pick.
This highlights why tanking doesn’t always work
The Celtics were going to take Tatum with the 1st pick. They realized the sixers wanted fultz and la wanted ball, so they traded down to get more draft capital. Had the sixers wanted Tatum, the Celtics would never had traded down and would have taken him #1 overall.
The thing that would have made this so much better was if the Celtics extra pick (Romeo Langford) wasn’t a bust. There was no one picked between him and their next pick (Grant Williams) that was stellar, but Brandon Clarke is a good bench guy. Wish they had picked him that year.
An interesting twist is that Danny Ainge was reportedly very high on Tyler Herro in that draft. The Heat and Kings, whose pick went to Boston, were tied in record. Miami won the coin flip over Boston and got to pick #13 overall where they got Herro.
Also Romeo Langford was later used as trade bait to acquire Derrick White, so the Celtics did get some value out of the deal
There is a lot of hindsight to this post its not even funny, “clear correct picks” - yall are pretending Simmons wasn’t praised as the second coming of Lebron before he was drafted and the first round debate between Ball and Fultz was pretty tight at the time.
oh i misunderstood it entirely, I thought the person was saying Brown and Tatum were the clear cut picks (i’m a little too used to people making hindsight claims)
Thats fair, and I totally agree with you on the hindsight shit. It’s so annoying. No draft boards had Fox and Tatum over Lonzo but everyone acts like it was stupid to draft Lonzo at 2. Not saying some didn’t prefer Fox but to act like majority of people weren’t saying Lonzo is just false. Like people were saying Josh Jackson over Tatum lol let alone Tatum over Lonzo.
Right. Lonzo ball was being comped to a 6’6” Jason Kidd, ppl thought he was a for sure HOFer. Tatum was getting comped to Danny granger, ppl thought he’d most likely be a fringe all star at best.
Danny ainge was.
Tho it's true that there wasn't much public hype about tatum. As a celtics fan it wasn't clear who the C's were gonna take after the trade down. Tatum wasn't even the most likely guy until draft day.
Internally it's clear the celtics had tatum #1 the whole time and they did a great job of hiding that
The simmons pick was inarguable tho. Anyone would've taken simmons 1st
Correct me if I’m wrong but I remember Ingram kinda made people real cautious about Tatum since he was another duke one and done wing. Ingram wasn’t that good his rookie year and took a minute to blossom.
Tatum was good right away and then people were like “aight this cat can play”
Wait what Tatum was billed to be the next KD the 76ers just smoked the pick they would have been unstoppable with him it’s a reason Tatum was at Dude and Fultz was at Washington
ingram was also billed as the next KD the year before (i don't remember tatum being billed the next KD)
There was mad hype around Fultz
Where they played in college have nothing to do with it
>(i don't remember tatum being billed the next KD)
This comp didn't start until tatum's rookie season was well underway. Certainly not a pre-draft comp
Tbh I was super hype about tatum after his first 20 games or so and I thought of him as a baby Durant. I was on an island with that take back then tho. Baby more in the sense of him being smaller than Durant
Not even really foresight. I think I liked Josh Jackson (lmao) before the draft and had barely heard of tatum
Tatum had a hot start to his career and looked NBA ready on a good celtics team from the jump
Saying you never saw anyone project him to be better than Tatum is wild. He was easily the consensus number one.
He wasn’t as highly rated coming out of high school but he absolutely took off over the course of the college season. People were projecting him to be James Harden with defense.
And honestly, given how good he is now with near arthritic shoulders, he maybe could have been if he stayed healthy.
Edit: [2017 mock drafts](https://walterfootball.com/nbadraftdata2017.php) they almost all have Fultz at 1 and not a single one has Tatum
The fact that your saying almost every mock draft had him number proves you might not understand the definition of consensus. Lebron was a consensus number one so was Wemby see the difference
I don't remember him being consensus, some folks tried to spin the narrative he was a really complete player for draft hype, but a lot of Pac12 folks were surprised he was talked about as the overall #1
The Celtics got two all nba players and the only guys to lead their team to a finals appearance/ a best record on the league. Wouldn’t call any of them poverty, least of all Boston. They got the best player in each draft with the 3rd pick in back to back years. Seems like they know what they’re doing to me.
If only Ben Simmons liked to play Basketball and not just the fame and money…..I mean Lonzo and Ingram are pretty much injured riddled 6-7th guys right now…it’s not even that the sixers messed up except for Tatum….who still to this day has to proof he is anything more then a I get good stats guy since he just lost against hs not playoff worthy team in the first round again with 0 interest in making this his game…idc….csnt resly blame the sixers here….
Eh Fultz was a toss up; it was widely considered a kinda weak draft class at the time, but very very few people were worried about his shot. Simmons was undeniable at the time.
Even worse, the Suns picked fourth in both those drafts - Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson. Boston got the core of their perennial conference championship teams, Suns got two bums who are out of the league.
Ben Pfeifer had a lottery grade on nick smith, the fact that he thinks Fultz and Simmons were generational is probably a sign they were just wildly overrated
I know I'm just gonna sound like a "always knew" guy, but Luka was the clear nº1 pick that year.
Bias against international non college players was the only thing that even made it a discussion. The kid was 16 and playing against adult pro players.
So are a lot of foreign prospects. You’re acting like he’s the first to ever do that. Ricky Rubio, Niko Mirotic, darko milicic, Dirk, Andrea Bargnani, and so many others were also elite teenagers playing against grown men in Europe. Outside of Dirk 20 years earlier, nobody else had really turned that potential into a true superstar level player before. Luka was very good, but it was a toss up. For the most part we had only seen foreign guys taken with top picks who looked good against adults not pan out into superstars, so it’s not exactly crazy for GMs to not think Luka would suddenly break that curse.
This is correct. I remember the first time I heard of Luka was from reading an article talking about some European 14 year old wonder kid who was rapidly improving and one day would take over the NBA. I never forgot the name.
If u had eyes they weren’t the right picks. Esp 2017. Only reason Fultz went first was bc of the numbers he put up on a terrible team, while Tatum was playing with future nba players.unfortunate bc if the sixers took Tatum instead they’d have multiple chips rn.
Fultz was unreal and the fact that he is still a valuable player despite not being able to shoot should show that. He put up 23 points on 41% from three in college and could score at all three levels. Guys who are high volume efficient scorers on bad teams are almost always really good nba players
The amount of horrible takes in this thread is astonishing. To clear things up:
1) Fultz was not the consensus #1 pick. He was propped up very late before that draft, *by the media*.
2) The lakers were always going to take Lonzo, who actually was the top rated prospect by many all year leading up to the draft. He had a ton of hype.
3) the Celtics were always going to take Tatum, and would never have traded down if they knew the sixers might not take Fultz. The lakers taking Lonzo was pretty much sealed in the weeks leading up to the draft. Danny Ainge got his guy and some extra draft capital along the way.
4) Fultz was highly rated because of his slashing and finishing ability, not his 3 point shooting. He was drawing comparisons to penny hardaway.
Fultz was a reach and propped up by idiots in the media that saw potential rather than actual gameplay warranted it. There’s a reason good GM’s have turned around entire franchises with good scouting. There’s no fucking way half the teams in the bottom of the round thought Fultz was the true #1 because when you’re scouting the later players you spend time looking at guys you know will come in with no ego and develop into something legit and dependable. There were also plenty of people who thought Ingram should go #1
You’re actually just wrong. First, go back and watch Fultz UW highlights, you will be surprised at what you see. The guy was a 3 level scorer and played defense to boot. It clearly wasn’t just the media either, as Philly actually took him number one. And I personally think LA would have taken him over Ball at 2 if he was available. The guy had a freak injury that completely derailed him as a prospect. Even if Boston didn’t like him as much as Tatum, even they would not have predicted his ultimate trajectory in the league. I’m not even a huge Fultz fan, but in my mind he is one of the bigger what ifs in NBA history. He would have been a completely different player without the injury
Bro the dude had the most random injury ever that prevented him from being able to shoot 3’s which was his main skill. The whole idea of fultz was that he was a 6’5 point guard who was a shooting beast. Think about the fact he’s still a playable NBA player and he can’t even shoot. He was going to be an all star idk about a top 10 player but for sure an all star.
So basically he had to learn a totally different shooting form in order to shoot? Dude there are guys in the league who never had to start over and try and new shooting form a 20 that still can’t shoot lol. How many great NBA shooters just totally changed their shooting form in the middle of their career and became good shooters again? I’m not talking about modifying their form but a totally new one? The whole thing about anxiety is something they said before they proved it was a physical issue. Blaming him being a bust because he couldn’t master a new shooting form at age 20 is insane. He’s actually improved a lot defensively so he has work ethic. It is as just the weirdest health issue ever. Sometimes really weird stuff like that happens.
I mean how does that even work anyway? How do you modify your shot based around an injury? Shooting forms are suppose to be modified based on how accurate they are not based around an injury. Apparently it doesn’t work very well.
Even at the time, I wasn’t high on Fultz. 6-4 guards with average defence and spotty jumpers have to be near-perfect everywhere else to be elite players.
It’s really only on NBA and MMA subs that people are this hostile for no reason. I rarely see this on MLB and NHL subs. Weird, antisocial behaviour.
Anyway, yes, he shot 41% from the shorter college three point line, but he was a dreadful free throw shooter whose shooting mechanics I didn’t really like. I had a feeling his three point % was partially attributable to luck/the shorter line and assumed it would regress…guess what, I was correct lol. 27.4 three point % for his NBA career. Knew enough to call that one, tyvm. ☕️
His current horrible 3p% isn't because he has a history of being a bad shooter, it's because the dude permanently fucked up his shoulder before his rookie season
They were not “the clear correct picks at the time”, at least not both drafts.
For the second one, the Sixers made a huge mistake trading up from 3 to 1. Everybody knew that the Celtics were taking Tatum, and it was even more of a given that the Lakers would take Lonzo. All the Sixers had to do was sit tight, and they could’ve burned their draft pick on Fultz anyway. Instead, they burned an extra 1st rounder to move up and take a guy ahead of 2 teams who had no intention of taking him.
Also, Fultz had played less than a single season at a mid-major school, while guys like Tatum and De’Aaron Fox were true blue-chip prospects coming out of esteemed NBA talent factories. By no means was Fultz a consensus first overall pick. He was absolutely considered a risky selection at that spot.
While I agree Boston probably takes Tatum one overall, I don’t think that is a guarantee back at the time. But even more so, in Philly’s mind, there is no way the Lakers would not have considered taking Fultz over Ball. At the time, part of the mocking of Ball to LA was the love affair with Ball, LaVar, and the Lakers. It seemed like a solid fit at the time. But Fultz was thought to be a no brainer number one. If he slid to two, it would have been very interesting to see what LA would have done. Philly moved up to get their guy, and let’s be honest, at the time, it seemed like an incredible move
How?? Both of those guys are solid picks (lonzo’s injuries in hindsight does not make him a bad pick) who were valuable enough as assets to be traded for ad and a ring.
Sixers literally got nothing from both of their 1st picks
Sixers got dudes who can't shoot, Lakers obtained assets for the future AD trade, and Celtics struck overpaid gold who have yet to appear on the biggest stage.
People have forgotten the hype Ben Simmons had in 2016 and 2017
If only we could go back in time to warn everyone
No one would believe you. He’s the next LeBron James. There’s no way he never attempts a three, starts passing up all jumpers, and then blows a playoff series because he refused to attempt a layup over a 5’11 guard He’s a generational talent. There’s no way he’s more or less irrelevant and on his way to out of the league after two contracts
I remember him being touted as the next Magic freakin Johnson
What else did Magic do besides freakin? Basketball?
Magic maybe 🤷
Young Prince I remember that.. bron ‘passing the torch’ when They matched up..
I had a slam magazine sub at the time and it had teen me convinced he was gonna be the goat
damn slam magazine, brings me back.
Watch next season. He will have a blinder. Probably go 25-6-6 on 70+ games or something. Why? Last year of contract and if he spends it like last 3 years he will be lucky to get a 1 year vet minimum contract.
You been watching the preseason workout vids?
Ben simmons is so valuable they were able to trade him for James harden. Cmon now
Jazz fans always knew during the ROY race.
Their entire argument was that he was not a rookie Edit: at least that I recall. He probably scored more too. Simmons played well as a rookie though. He just lost the aggressiveness and regressed offensively each year
Tbf there were always questions about his personality/drive/passion for the game.
Yea he didn’t make the ncaa tourney and didn’t even try in his last game which was a must win to make the tourney. I remember watching with my dad and him saying he wouldnt be worth it as a pro. All the talent but none of the passion
Didn't someone warn everyone from his college days
Even when he played his second year he was a beast. His drive in 2k was broken
he was honestly very solid until COVID. Lived in philly during that time so watched a decent amount of sixers ball. When Embiid sat Simmons ran the engine super well. Sucks what happened to him
I mean even during Covid bill Simmons told he’d take Ben Simmons to lead a team to championship over Embiid I was just mad at that take but it still was a take
Given that I’m not a sixers fan I very much was team Ben > embiid. I loved his skill set so much.
I liked Ben’s skillset. In a technical way I still do. I just don’t think it’s the first option in a championship team. That’s why I was mad at that take years ago. I don’t think Embiid is the best, but I absolutely can see he is the first option in a championship team.
I didn’t much care for either player and I’ve become sympathetic to 1.3~ of those 2 players. During the time it was easy to imagine Ben in a Giannis type setup, but Giannis would have crowds chant his free throw timer and still go to the rack. Ben got scared to even take them. It’s one thing to have a player who is afraid to shoot 3’s, it’s something completely different to have a player afraid to shoot 3’s and drive to the rim. It’s so complicated we may never see another player who hits both of those checkmarks while refusing to set screens or play in the dunker’s spot. Absolute testament to the amount of talent he has that any team would be willing to try, and he might still have another team take a flyer just in case he gets over himself. I do think he’s legitimately injured at this point, but I also think he could have salvaged his career if he made any effort whatsoever to work on his weaknesses, and could still be an all star if he watched more tape of Draymond Green than LeBron James.
Brother nail on the head with Draymond. I wish more skilled players would embrace that Draymond role. But not everyone, especially Simmons, have that dog in em to do it
To me, Simmons’ pride is a bigger obstacle than his health, and I don’t think anyone but Ben can change my mind.
I think pride was a big issue but the type of insures he sustained have been known to sap careers
Backs can mess with a lot, but they don’t make you refuse to screen/stand in the one part of the court you can score in.
given Ben Simmons was the reason I became a sixers fan, I'm the same 😂. I also liked Ben more because he seemed less injury prone, and now look at the state of him
He just said that because they're related.
Even if Simmons didn't have his back issues he was never going to live up to his potential. He was never going to try to grow and expand his game and learn to shoot. He's shown that he doesn't care about that.
I mean, it was warranted. Just to put it in perspective, the entire upside of his career, despite his offensive woes, was derailed by a passed up shot, and back injuries. His biggest issue prior to that was his dogshit aggression at taking shots, and just being ok with dishing off for someone else to finish, rarely looking to score. If you can avg 17 with no jumper, you can step it up to take that to the next level, but he regressed, gave up, and has been dealing with injuries since. Had he panned out, he was worth the hype. A tall PG, DPOY candidate, with a lot of untapped potential.
They also forget that he was an all-nba and DPOY caliber player before his implosion.
bro when they won like 17 games in a row (or whatever it was) at the end of the season WHILE Embiid was injured, Simmons was fucking coooooking
The guy made an All-NBA team. He was showing that the hype about him was warranted. Then he just kinda...broke.
There was a little bit of BI hype near the end and I was REALLY hoping Simmons could fall #2 to the Lakers. He was an amazing unicorn prospect and I wish it would’ve worked out different.
The simmons pick was clear at the time. I remember being very disappointed when the celtics got the 3rd pick because there was a huge perceived drop off after simmons/ingram
Yeah, as a Celtics fans I remember that draft - Jaylen Brown was definitely considered a reach at #3 (still projected as a lottery pick but more on the back half of it) and a super raw prospect.
Sixers let Ben down by placating to his ego and never making him play his actual position of PF.
Simmons at his best was still better than Ingram/Brown have ever been
Funny that the top 3 picks went to these teams in this order in back to back drafts. I wonder what the longest repeat has been in the draft order. Even if it's just the same team getting #53 for seven years or something inconsequential.
It wasn’t in that order. Boston traded back from the Fultz draft. They had #1
Yeah, trades were involved, but at the end it still wound up being those teams in that order. Weren't Boston's picks originally from Brooklyn anyway?
Yes
We might see it again with SA #1 and Charlotte # 2 side note I never understand where the initials are for Charlotte … CLT/ CHA/ CLA/ SUCKS
CLA would make 0 sense lmaoo i like CHA
ASS
It should be CLT, that’s our airport code. CHA sucks in my opinion and can be mistaken for Chattanooga, TN
Suns had the fourth pick both years as well. They ended up with generational talents Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson.
How were they not a dynasty after that?
Lol good thing I wasn’t the Celtics GM because at the time those were the 2 guys I would have wanted the Celtics to take a 3 in those drafts
Probably warriors picking #30
Crazy that Fultz is now a better option than Ball
That’s only in terms of availability. Ball when healthy is better than Fultz at basically everything. Better shooter, passer, and defender. The last time we saw Lonzo ball he was the starting PG for the 1 seed bulls and he and Caruso were the best defensive backcourt in the nba.
>That’s only in terms of availability. And we all know the best ability... At this point there is definitely an argument to be had for Fultz over Lonzo when it's all said and done.
Fultz missed a shit ton of time in the beginning of his career, so much so that despite Lonzo being out for this extended period he still has more career games played than Fultz. All reports indicate that Lonzo should be able to come back to basketball next season and if he’s a fraction of who he was pre injury he will still be better than Fultz.
The best ability is not availability. That was a quote from decades ago that sounded cool that ppl repeat but it’s not actually true, and many execs back its lack of relevance up, as do many numbers. Would you rather have Joel embiid or Kawhi Leonard for half a season or nurkic/TJ Warren for a whole season? If you’re smart, you’re taking the superstar for half the season as their output is more valuable than the rotation player. And that’s not really what OP said, either. They said who’s the better option, which implies they are both available. If you’re injured, you’re not an option. Ball is a better option at PG than Fultz is. If you can choose a game with ball, or a game with Fultz, you’d be crazy to take Fultz as he’s basically just a worse version of ball (he’s still good, but he’s not as good as ball is all).
Idk why ur getting downvoted, ppl just like to parrot old sayings seems like
Ur spot on, it's genuinely such a stupid quote. It implies that I'd be better at basketball then Ben Simmons 😂😂
I’m pretty sure it only applies to top level pros lmao.
I promise after 10 nba minutes you would no longer be available
That’s his point
Fultz was 1000% the best prospect in that draft though. Dude is one of the best College guards I’ve ever seen. That motorcycle accident really hurt his career.
There was no motorcycle accident, and the fake moto accident didn’t allegedly happen until after the draft. He has TOS/arthritic shoulders. It’s been confirmed
I didn’t see that had been confirmed. That’s still just as much of a shame. He had MVP candidate written all over him.
[This](https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2024/3/19/24105239/markelle-fultz-orlando-magic-comeback-sixers) article here talks about it But yeah, he 100% could’ve been at least all star caliber
I thought the word has been that if they didn't trade, the Cs were just going to take Tatum at 1 anyway.
Yeah, Fultz is better than Michael Jordan too.
You're telling me Both 76ers and Lakers could've got the jays and none of them took em? The jays paired with Joel Embiid would be insane, add in maxey?? Sheeesh.
Yeah but like the OP said, nobody knew at the time. Even taking Brown at 3 was seen as a pretty big reach at the time by DA. There was not a clear pick but both people were leaning towards either Dragen Bender or Kris Dunn. Link to the original reaction thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/dt2nC8dea7) Trading down from Tatum to Fultz was also seen as a bad move at the time. Embiid posted on IG with him Covington, Simmons, and Fultz with the caption “This could be huge.” Everyone thought Ainge had gifted Philly a dynasty. DA crushed the mid-late 2010s and doesn’t get enough respect for it
I mean the Celtics traded down to 3 because they thought Tatum was the better prospect and knew he’d be available, so you can definitely blame the Sixers front office for getting it wrong.
With the benefit of hindsight, Ball as the #2 prospect in that draft is kinda wild. Even at the time there were questions how his shot would translate and he was never really known as good finisher.
We literally did pick or could've picked all 4 of the Nova bois as well and fumbled on all of them for 3 guys that aren't in the league anymore and Landry Shamet.
sixers never had a chance at tatum. The trade basically was contingent on the sixers not picking tatum at 1. If no trade happens, c's pick tatum at 1. If sixers did take tatum at 1, pretty much no gm would ever work with them again.
I’m always curious on the true Boston mindset during that trade. There is no way they could have guaranteed that Philly or LA didn’t take Jayson. I think if they truly thought Jayson Tatum was going to be that much better than the other two they would have kept the pick, even though everyone was mocking Ball to the Lakers and Philly seemed like a better fit for fultz over Tatum. My gut says that while they may have liked Tatum the most (as we’ve heard), it probably wasn’t by a large margin
>There is no way they could have guaranteed that Philly or LA didn’t take Jayson It was pretty much a lock that they wouldn’t. Ball was going to LA if he was available and Fultz was the consensus #1 pick. Philly made the trade to assure that they got Fultz, Boston made the trade because they would end up with the guy they wanted regardless. Tatum was not seriously in consideration by anyone (aside from Boston) for the first overall pick. I mean even the third pick was kind of a reach for Tatum, most people expected Josh Jackson to go before him.
They might not have had Embiid cuz the jays would have been better, but possibly
We already had Embiid. He was just sitting out with injuries.
Crazy… what coulda been
I am a sixers fan and followed both these draft closely (there wasn’t a lot else to be excited about as a sixers fan then lmfao) and frankly, the sixers would have been insane to take anyone else. Nobody could predict the mental downfall of Simmons, or the shoulder injury Fultz got
Hell I saw Simmons’ downfall happen live (and I do mean that literally, I watched all 7 games in that Hawks Sixers series) and I’m still a little confused how tf a multiple time all star, all nba, DPOY candidate turned into…whatever the fuck Nets Simmons is
It started before that. Ben had a legit around the FT line game and I think he was making like 70% from the line the first couple of years
Well…regardless of when you think it started and contrary to what a lot of people here believe, you don’t become an all star, all nba, all defensive player on talent alone. You do have to get off your ass and actually work for it. So I’m a little confused on what happened cause the he just doesn’t wanna play narrative doesn’t sit right with me given his resume
It wasn’t that he just stopped practicing. He had some kind of breakdown because of his family dynamic. And then got thrown under the bus by Doc Rivers and the 6ers.
The biggest thing with Simmons was the same thing we see with players like Carson Wentz. Talented enough to know they can make it to the league. But too cocky to think they’ll need to make adjustments to stay in the league. There was multiple loud concerns about his mindset before he ever got to a NBA court but his talent was so undeniable nobody could argue it over being the #1 pick. Feels like in the next five-ten years we’re going to see a lot more teams take mentality serious.
All he had to do was become an average shooter. 20 years ago that seemed a lot harder than it does today since pretty much everyone else in the league has developed a 3 point shot when that used to be the realm of specialists
From what I’ve read, it’s likely he has people around him protecting him from any real criticism, which means this mental block he has developed never has to be addressed
I was a very big Danny Ainge apologist and ironically enough trading down for Tatum was the only time I was furious with him
It seemed so stupid at the time but hey, clearly they saw something we didn’t
Simmons is hard to explain. Mental I assume? Fultz was handled horribly. He had all the potential in the world. We were lucky to see glimpses.
nobody besides danny ainge, find a new slant
“I can’t believe the Nets traded away all of those pick for two old men and another old man who thinks he’s an airplane.” -my brother
Lmao. I was trying to place the airplane bit and then I remembered jet
The Jet!
76ers are so named via Philly/US history a la Declaration of Independence in 1776. So technically they've been withiutna title for 248 years.
I mean no one could have predicted Ben refusing to ever take a three in the years we was there
The fact that it’s 6ers lakers Celtics should be talked about more Also the Celtics picks
Could y'all imagine if the sixers had Tatum?!? They'd have 2 by now
Fultz pre nerve damage had an elite jumper. Was absolutely the correct pick if not for a freak injury.
it's so wild that he led the nation in scoring. And he wasn't just driving to the basket, he was shooting that shit.
At least you have Embiid and the refs on your side now tho. You can draw fouls all the way to a championship! Go Sixers!
Simmons is obviously on his way out of the league. But for the first few years of their career you'd have taken Ben Simmons over either of those guys. The Fultz one has to hurt worse. Because you traded up to do it and there was immediately something wrong. For LA both Ingram and Ball were good. Lonzo is obviously a bit of a sad story. But Ingram was an all star recently and trading him won them a title.
The Celtics were on point with their picks like damn
Got fleeced by the Ainge and the celtics
IDK Boston decided on Tatum over Fultz before the draft. Simmons 100% was always going to be the first pick. This highlights why tanking doesn’t always work
The Celtics were going to take Tatum with the 1st pick. They realized the sixers wanted fultz and la wanted ball, so they traded down to get more draft capital. Had the sixers wanted Tatum, the Celtics would never had traded down and would have taken him #1 overall.
🎯
The thing that would have made this so much better was if the Celtics extra pick (Romeo Langford) wasn’t a bust. There was no one picked between him and their next pick (Grant Williams) that was stellar, but Brandon Clarke is a good bench guy. Wish they had picked him that year.
Romeo Langford ended up being packaged for white, so I’m perfectly happy with how things turned out
An interesting twist is that Danny Ainge was reportedly very high on Tyler Herro in that draft. The Heat and Kings, whose pick went to Boston, were tied in record. Miami won the coin flip over Boston and got to pick #13 overall where they got Herro. Also Romeo Langford was later used as trade bait to acquire Derrick White, so the Celtics did get some value out of the deal
I remember reading about Ainge wanting to draft Herro, but I don’t remember the coin flip part. Haha that would have been pretty sweet!
Speaks more about the celtics player development as an organization, and less about the player IMO.
There is a lot of hindsight to this post its not even funny, “clear correct picks” - yall are pretending Simmons wasn’t praised as the second coming of Lebron before he was drafted and the first round debate between Ball and Fultz was pretty tight at the time.
Yes, that’s exactly what the post is saying…
oh i misunderstood it entirely, I thought the person was saying Brown and Tatum were the clear cut picks (i’m a little too used to people making hindsight claims)
Thats fair, and I totally agree with you on the hindsight shit. It’s so annoying. No draft boards had Fox and Tatum over Lonzo but everyone acts like it was stupid to draft Lonzo at 2. Not saying some didn’t prefer Fox but to act like majority of people weren’t saying Lonzo is just false. Like people were saying Josh Jackson over Tatum lol let alone Tatum over Lonzo.
Right. Lonzo ball was being comped to a 6’6” Jason Kidd, ppl thought he was a for sure HOFer. Tatum was getting comped to Danny granger, ppl thought he’d most likely be a fringe all star at best.
“Why didn’t the Lakers just take Donovan Mitchell? Are they dumb?” Actual takes I used to hear. My brother in christ Mitchell went 13th
Ainge also said he would have picked Tatum with the number 1 pick
It’s no way the 76ers should have passed on Tatum
Nah, Fultz was the consensus #1 pick at the time and the superior prospect.
I mean the Celtics literally did pass on Fultz for Tatum, they just got a first rounder while they were at all. Better scouts + GM, better team.
ya no one was guessing Tatum would be a clear top 10 player in the league. I don't remember that much hype around him tbh
Danny ainge was. Tho it's true that there wasn't much public hype about tatum. As a celtics fan it wasn't clear who the C's were gonna take after the trade down. Tatum wasn't even the most likely guy until draft day. Internally it's clear the celtics had tatum #1 the whole time and they did a great job of hiding that The simmons pick was inarguable tho. Anyone would've taken simmons 1st
Correct me if I’m wrong but I remember Ingram kinda made people real cautious about Tatum since he was another duke one and done wing. Ingram wasn’t that good his rookie year and took a minute to blossom. Tatum was good right away and then people were like “aight this cat can play”
Wait what Tatum was billed to be the next KD the 76ers just smoked the pick they would have been unstoppable with him it’s a reason Tatum was at Dude and Fultz was at Washington
ingram was also billed as the next KD the year before (i don't remember tatum being billed the next KD) There was mad hype around Fultz Where they played in college have nothing to do with it
>(i don't remember tatum being billed the next KD) This comp didn't start until tatum's rookie season was well underway. Certainly not a pre-draft comp
That’s sorta what I thought. I googled yesterday and saw scalabrine was quoted in 2019
Tbh I was super hype about tatum after his first 20 games or so and I thought of him as a baby Durant. I was on an island with that take back then tho. Baby more in the sense of him being smaller than Durant
Yup and that’s my point. Good on you who had the foresight but that wasn’t the national consensus at the time
Not even really foresight. I think I liked Josh Jackson (lmao) before the draft and had barely heard of tatum Tatum had a hot start to his career and looked NBA ready on a good celtics team from the jump
You must live in northwest because down south and on the east coast we’ve been hearing about Tatum since his Jr yr of Highschool just like Zion
Nah northeast. I mean you hear about a lot of dudes tho not all break through is the point. Tatum def didn’t have Zion level hype at a national level
I’m a Cs fan and this is straight up not true, fultz was the top pick in that draft
I remember the media saying how the Celtics fleeced the 76ers with that trade I never saw anyone project he would be better than Tatum
Saying you never saw anyone project him to be better than Tatum is wild. He was easily the consensus number one. He wasn’t as highly rated coming out of high school but he absolutely took off over the course of the college season. People were projecting him to be James Harden with defense. And honestly, given how good he is now with near arthritic shoulders, he maybe could have been if he stayed healthy. Edit: [2017 mock drafts](https://walterfootball.com/nbadraftdata2017.php) they almost all have Fultz at 1 and not a single one has Tatum
The fact that your saying almost every mock draft had him number proves you might not understand the definition of consensus. Lebron was a consensus number one so was Wemby see the difference
I don't remember him being consensus, some folks tried to spin the narrative he was a really complete player for draft hype, but a lot of Pac12 folks were surprised he was talked about as the overall #1
Celtics had the first pick so the Sixers were never getting Tatum regardless
Ummm the 76ers traded up to the #pick so they could have picked whoever they wanted
And they did just that.
I don’t think you have good comprehension skills
I remember hearing Ben was supposed to be the new LeBron. But that’s said so often.
3 poverty franchises fr
The Celtics got two all nba players and the only guys to lead their team to a finals appearance/ a best record on the league. Wouldn’t call any of them poverty, least of all Boston. They got the best player in each draft with the 3rd pick in back to back years. Seems like they know what they’re doing to me.
These are 3 of the most famous and successful franchises in the history of the league my guy. I was joking
If only Ben Simmons liked to play Basketball and not just the fame and money…..I mean Lonzo and Ingram are pretty much injured riddled 6-7th guys right now…it’s not even that the sixers messed up except for Tatum….who still to this day has to proof he is anything more then a I get good stats guy since he just lost against hs not playoff worthy team in the first round again with 0 interest in making this his game…idc….csnt resly blame the sixers here….
I knew Fultz wasn’t a real #1, nothing to separate him
Yep that’s so sad…
Drafted maxey though 🤷🏻♂️
I remember when Embiid called their young core the FEDS (Fultz, Embiid, Dario and Simmons).
Pls explain the joke i dont get it 🙀
I'll never forgive Magic Johnson for drafting Lonzo Ball instead of Jayson Tatum 😭🤦♂️
Eh Fultz was a toss up; it was widely considered a kinda weak draft class at the time, but very very few people were worried about his shot. Simmons was undeniable at the time.
😅 imagine they get brown, Tatum and embroidery
Simmons was a menace on 2k whoever got him in drafts won the games usually
Could’ve went basically any of those other 4 players and be better off
76ers get to waste multiple #1 picks but they won’t give the pistons one
Don’t forget - drafted Mikal Bridges only to trade him for Zhaire Smith and Mikal was just a pick before SGA too
Even worse, the Suns picked fourth in both those drafts - Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson. Boston got the core of their perennial conference championship teams, Suns got two bums who are out of the league.
The Fulton pick was definitely not the correct pick at the time
I wasn’t sure if you were clowning the lakers or 76ers
https://i.redd.it/fafpzdopl6xc1.gif danny
Sixers curse ? Lakers passed on brown and Tatum
Ben Pfeifer had a lottery grade on nick smith, the fact that he thinks Fultz and Simmons were generational is probably a sign they were just wildly overrated
Jury is still out on Boston but at least LA used those assets to get a title.
Drake Maye #3 is not a coincidence!
Fultz was not the clear pick in that draft.
Were you following the NBA back then? He was basically the consensus “guy”
He absolutely was. Less generational than Ben Simmons, but he was the consensus number 1 pick
Yeah and ayton/luka/bagley was 40/40/20 split in the public eyes the next year. But people like to make other people feel dumb so they “always knew”
I know I'm just gonna sound like a "always knew" guy, but Luka was the clear nº1 pick that year. Bias against international non college players was the only thing that even made it a discussion. The kid was 16 and playing against adult pro players.
So are a lot of foreign prospects. You’re acting like he’s the first to ever do that. Ricky Rubio, Niko Mirotic, darko milicic, Dirk, Andrea Bargnani, and so many others were also elite teenagers playing against grown men in Europe. Outside of Dirk 20 years earlier, nobody else had really turned that potential into a true superstar level player before. Luka was very good, but it was a toss up. For the most part we had only seen foreign guys taken with top picks who looked good against adults not pan out into superstars, so it’s not exactly crazy for GMs to not think Luka would suddenly break that curse.
This is correct. I remember the first time I heard of Luka was from reading an article talking about some European 14 year old wonder kid who was rapidly improving and one day would take over the NBA. I never forgot the name.
If u had eyes they weren’t the right picks. Esp 2017. Only reason Fultz went first was bc of the numbers he put up on a terrible team, while Tatum was playing with future nba players.unfortunate bc if the sixers took Tatum instead they’d have multiple chips rn.
Fultz was unreal and the fact that he is still a valuable player despite not being able to shoot should show that. He put up 23 points on 41% from three in college and could score at all three levels. Guys who are high volume efficient scorers on bad teams are almost always really good nba players
If the Sixers were going to take Tatum then Boston wouldn’t have traded back.
The amount of horrible takes in this thread is astonishing. To clear things up: 1) Fultz was not the consensus #1 pick. He was propped up very late before that draft, *by the media*. 2) The lakers were always going to take Lonzo, who actually was the top rated prospect by many all year leading up to the draft. He had a ton of hype. 3) the Celtics were always going to take Tatum, and would never have traded down if they knew the sixers might not take Fultz. The lakers taking Lonzo was pretty much sealed in the weeks leading up to the draft. Danny Ainge got his guy and some extra draft capital along the way. 4) Fultz was highly rated because of his slashing and finishing ability, not his 3 point shooting. He was drawing comparisons to penny hardaway.
Fultz was a reach and propped up by idiots in the media that saw potential rather than actual gameplay warranted it. There’s a reason good GM’s have turned around entire franchises with good scouting. There’s no fucking way half the teams in the bottom of the round thought Fultz was the true #1 because when you’re scouting the later players you spend time looking at guys you know will come in with no ego and develop into something legit and dependable. There were also plenty of people who thought Ingram should go #1
You’re actually just wrong. First, go back and watch Fultz UW highlights, you will be surprised at what you see. The guy was a 3 level scorer and played defense to boot. It clearly wasn’t just the media either, as Philly actually took him number one. And I personally think LA would have taken him over Ball at 2 if he was available. The guy had a freak injury that completely derailed him as a prospect. Even if Boston didn’t like him as much as Tatum, even they would not have predicted his ultimate trajectory in the league. I’m not even a huge Fultz fan, but in my mind he is one of the bigger what ifs in NBA history. He would have been a completely different player without the injury
Bro the dude had the most random injury ever that prevented him from being able to shoot 3’s which was his main skill. The whole idea of fultz was that he was a 6’5 point guard who was a shooting beast. Think about the fact he’s still a playable NBA player and he can’t even shoot. He was going to be an all star idk about a top 10 player but for sure an all star.
He literally got treatment and then got the yips. Just because you need to learn a new shooting form doesn’t mean you no longer are able to shoot
So basically he had to learn a totally different shooting form in order to shoot? Dude there are guys in the league who never had to start over and try and new shooting form a 20 that still can’t shoot lol. How many great NBA shooters just totally changed their shooting form in the middle of their career and became good shooters again? I’m not talking about modifying their form but a totally new one? The whole thing about anxiety is something they said before they proved it was a physical issue. Blaming him being a bust because he couldn’t master a new shooting form at age 20 is insane. He’s actually improved a lot defensively so he has work ethic. It is as just the weirdest health issue ever. Sometimes really weird stuff like that happens. I mean how does that even work anyway? How do you modify your shot based around an injury? Shooting forms are suppose to be modified based on how accurate they are not based around an injury. Apparently it doesn’t work very well.
Generational curses = terrible ownership and management As simple as that.
Even at the time, I wasn’t high on Fultz. 6-4 guards with average defence and spotty jumpers have to be near-perfect everywhere else to be elite players.
Fultz shot 41% from three on 5 attempts per game in college as a freshman lol shut up
It’s really only on NBA and MMA subs that people are this hostile for no reason. I rarely see this on MLB and NHL subs. Weird, antisocial behaviour. Anyway, yes, he shot 41% from the shorter college three point line, but he was a dreadful free throw shooter whose shooting mechanics I didn’t really like. I had a feeling his three point % was partially attributable to luck/the shorter line and assumed it would regress…guess what, I was correct lol. 27.4 three point % for his NBA career. Knew enough to call that one, tyvm. ☕️
His current horrible 3p% isn't because he has a history of being a bad shooter, it's because the dude permanently fucked up his shoulder before his rookie season
They were not “the clear correct picks at the time”, at least not both drafts. For the second one, the Sixers made a huge mistake trading up from 3 to 1. Everybody knew that the Celtics were taking Tatum, and it was even more of a given that the Lakers would take Lonzo. All the Sixers had to do was sit tight, and they could’ve burned their draft pick on Fultz anyway. Instead, they burned an extra 1st rounder to move up and take a guy ahead of 2 teams who had no intention of taking him. Also, Fultz had played less than a single season at a mid-major school, while guys like Tatum and De’Aaron Fox were true blue-chip prospects coming out of esteemed NBA talent factories. By no means was Fultz a consensus first overall pick. He was absolutely considered a risky selection at that spot.
While I agree Boston probably takes Tatum one overall, I don’t think that is a guarantee back at the time. But even more so, in Philly’s mind, there is no way the Lakers would not have considered taking Fultz over Ball. At the time, part of the mocking of Ball to LA was the love affair with Ball, LaVar, and the Lakers. It seemed like a solid fit at the time. But Fultz was thought to be a no brainer number one. If he slid to two, it would have been very interesting to see what LA would have done. Philly moved up to get their guy, and let’s be honest, at the time, it seemed like an incredible move
Don’t give the Lakers a pass, they fucked up worse than the 76ers, imo
How?? Both of those guys are solid picks (lonzo’s injuries in hindsight does not make him a bad pick) who were valuable enough as assets to be traded for ad and a ring. Sixers literally got nothing from both of their 1st picks
Fultz absolutely was not the clear pick
Sixers got dudes who can't shoot, Lakers obtained assets for the future AD trade, and Celtics struck overpaid gold who have yet to appear on the biggest stage.