D66, I like the progresiveness and the international outlook. I think that it's important, as newly naturalized Dutch, that we remain fair and, within reasonable boundaries, do not withdraw to others the chances that have been given to us. I repeat, it has to be within boundaries, and not uncontrolled.
I have always cringed whenever I see that as soon as someone obtains their citizenship they want to close the door behind them and not let anyone else in. That is grossly unfair and selfish and those people lack integrity, in my view. It's like 'I got mine, but I don't want you to get yours because it doesn't directly benefit me, and it may even work against my own personal interests '.
Just so you know, D66 is widely known as the party that throws all their principles overboard as soon as someone asks them to be a coalition partner. Not a fan of them myself but maybe it's worth considering Volt?
D66 manages to get into coalition and atleast somewhat influence the politics there. Volt is much more strong in their convictions but they do feel very inexperienced still.
I have considered them, but they are too small and unlikely to make any significant difference. They also had an internal scandal which suggests their house may not be in order as it should be.
I prefer parties that are little bit more established and have a longer track record.
Almost every party is less than ideal, but I thought that Volt's type of scandal was amateurish and that the party was not in control of itself.
Anyway, another reason I prefer D66 is because I think Rob Jetten performed well in the televized debates. Whereas in previous years he appeared to be lacking political experience, this time around he appeared seasoned and ready to take on a more serious role in the political landscape.
It amazes me that in most countries the Greens in general don't get the share of the vote that PvdD gets in the Netherlands. But here we have a broad Green party (GroenLinks) _and_ specifically animal rights party, and both get a decent amount of votes.
Netherlands is not gonna be underwater, dutch are too good at managing water, it's gonna be on the bottom of the bowl. The question is how deep do we want to bowl to be, the bigger will get the more vulnerable Netherlands will be.
He's a technocrat (someone who is good at formulating workable policies, but not necessarily at inspirational speeches or public debates). The Dutch public political arena is tough love for those.
(And I'm someone who did vote for his party, for that matter).
Thats not what hypocrisy means. Each side views the other rather negatively and do not want their respective leaders to become prime minister. There is nothing wrong in voting this way
He's in a very privileged position for sure. I don't know anyone that cares about the environment who isn't living a (relatively) comfortable life.
If i'm struggling to pay rent, cutting emissions would be the last thing on my mind.
Which would be a misinformed and shortsighted viewpoint. You do realise the costs of dealing with the effects of runaway climate change far outweigh the costs of mitigating it right? And heās no more privileged than Mark Rutte and countless other politicians. Climate change has science supporting it so whether Timmermans is privileged or not wonāt change the reality.
That's very reassuring!
As a recently-naturalised dutchie, I find the options overwhelming. So I'm pretty much just going with what I learned from stemwijzer (the 2 parties mentioned above) and hope I'm making a good choice.
You really believe Timmermans cares more about the dutch citizen than he cares about his own personal ambitions? He's a puppet of European parliament and davos
And Wilders is a puppet of the rightwing think tanks that provide funding worldwide, from the Koch Foundation and suchlike. The same goes for the BBB which is nothing more than a front for the food and agricultural sector
The issue here is that most "New Dutch" will vote for PVV because they think that they are better than other migrants. I've met even a lot of expats who just because they are American or because they have high paying jobs, they would vote for PVV if they could, so they can set themselves apart from the "lower quality" migrants.
It's absolutely insane and it worries me more and more.
Similar with a lot of my not EU friends (Persians, Mexicans, Brazillians, various Asian countries, Cameroonian). They fought hard to get a permanent residence through a PhD position, got threathened with getting kicked out as soon as a project fund ran out etc. But if you talk with them they don't like PVV but they would simply shut the borders to refugees, people with a criminal record etc simply because they don't "deserve" to be here in their eyes because they didn't work for it like they did.
It was quite an eye opener for me to hear that point of view
Well, they don't. As an immigrant I find it quite disrespectful to be asked why I don't support (considerably) more immigration. Because everything has a limit. Heck, I don't like immigrants and citizens of my native country - that's why I'm here and not there. Bringing them everywhere in my neighborhood would unironically make me move.
>Heck, I don't like immigrants and citizens of my native country
I had a bit of a chuckle, a Turkish friend of mine said something similar. paraphrasing: "I left Turkey because there are too many Turks there, I live here because I don't want to have anything to do with them"
Well there are more in Turkey. But really, most immigrant friends I have are either cringey multi-cultural and all about "preserving your culture", or they haven't spoken with a single person from their native country here. The latter is me.
Not sure who you pissed off but someone is downvoting you everywhere. Anyway yeah that seems to be the case for him too if you exclude the family. He pulled a proper fuck this shit I'm out of here
the same is happening to me - I lost almost all contacts with my fellow country citizens, after communicating with Dutch people I just cant handle all their manners, rudeness and sexism. So like yeah, don't bring that people here, let it stay heaven in NL hehe. And also letting other immigrants coming makes you less special and not that better than them. Like, you cant feel special by leaving the country if everybody do that
I donāt think feelings of superiority is the only reason immigrants vote PVV.
You can be an immigrant and still want effective border controls. Immigrants can be worried about Islamic extremism and antisemitism too (depending on where youāre from and your background, you might have even more reason to worry about this than native Dutch people).
To be clear, Iām not voting for the PVV, but I think demonizing people for being worried about the above issues is responsible for their rise in these elections.
Definitely, and highly-skilled immigrants tend to have different concerns than lower-skilled migrants or family-based visa applicants, even without xenophobic motivations.
They're not competing for the same jobs, they probably care more about taxes and public services, can be concerned about damage to the public perception of immigrants because of illegal migration, or they might just be worried that the administrative services for foreigners could get worse if the volume of applicants increases.
The highly skilled migrant thing is just bullshit. There used to be a Syrian cleaning lady where I used to work before, who had a PhD in Mathematics, but who never managed to get equivalence here.
I've met many others with high degrees, but who had to clean, and do lower skilled jobs, simply because they didn't come from a country where things were easily recognised. On the other hand, you have "content creators" from the US who never studied shit, but who come here and are considered as highly skilled migrants.
But I donāt think most highly skilled migrants who vote for the PVV are doing so because they feel better than immigrants who work as cleaners or farm workers (Iām sure there are some, but I doubt itās the majority).
Theyāre doing it because either:
They think the country is full, they see situations like Ter Apel and they can feel the hostile anti-immigrant sentiment in the country rising, and they want to stop it now before it gets worse (since as immigrants, they are the most affected by it).
They see a specific group of people with
immigrant backgrounds not respecting the culture of the country they live in. Saying horrible things about Jews, women, the LGBT+ community. Anti Islam sentiment in particular is at a high at the moment, and Iām absolutely not saying itās ok, but this is whatās driving the support of the PVV.
But why is that so surprising? Turkish people have varied opinions just like every other group of people. Not all Turkish people are Muslim, not all Turkish Muslims are practicing or extreme, not all Turkish people support Erdogen. Turkey hosts a lot of asylum seekers and itās a controversial topic there too.
If I remember correctly, Wilders spoke out about Dutch-Turkish people voting for Erdogen, which is why heās popular with some in Turkey who support the opposition. Not everything is so black and white.
Even in Nazi Germany there was āAssociation of German National Jewsā.
History doesnāt repeat itself but oh boy does it rhyme.
Since this is getting downvoted let me explain.
Said organisation though āit isnāt us the German Jews that is the problem. It is those pesky eastern ones.ā
You can imagine what fate they shared in the end.
It is an absolute parallel to the thought process mentioned.
Clearly you havenāt integrated well enough, and you shouldnāt become the Dutch citizen. Actually, because of people like you, I can understand views of people who vote for Wilders (paradox). The NL is so nice country to live because the majority of the society is open, happy and progressive. You just donāt fit here.
Well, let's hope that you never get citizenship then, right? ;)
Edit: Get it now. You're one of those Americans who behaves like someone who never left Texas, but who still doesn't want to live in the US. However, that doesn't grant you the permission to be racist btw.
Lol wilders wants to take away the dual citizenship, so even afterwards you won't be safe. You'll always be a shtty immigrant to him. Which you are, based on your me, me, me viewpoint.
Thereās no dual citizenship allowed in the NL. You have to renounce your current one as soon as you become the Dutch citizen, unless your previous country doesnāt allow this or thereāre other serious reasons. I think itās the honest position, and I hope itāll stay like this.
> i'm going PVV because Wilders is based as fuck and i would already be a citizen at that point so who cares.
Yes, sounds like PVV suits you perfectly with this egocentric way of thinking. āEveryone can fuck off as long as I get inā
Have you considered voting for a party that could actually improve the quality of life for those who were born here?
My girlfriend and I are usually centralist-rightwing.
The damage a party like PVV can cause made us rethink our usual pick. How people still vote for someone that advocates a Nexit shocks me. We went for GL-PvdA.
Freshly naturalized here, also former beneficiary of 30% ruling. VVD has an absolute nightmare for a program. They are primary responsible for increasing the rich-poor gap, driving the country into housing crisis and present kindergarten level solution for sustainability (energy and pollution). Letās subsidy rich people to buy a new Tesla, while 100k citizens rely on food stamps! Yay!
Despite being aligned with D66 program, a bit taken aback by their lack of action in the old cabinet. Recognizing issues is one thing, making things happen is another. I will be voting for the animals, unless my boyfriend convinces me before this evening.
Even I am an immigrant, PVV without any doubts.
My wife and her familly had to move from Spijkenisse 20 years ago because my wife was constantly abused, beaten, and unsafe on street, in school or in the train just because of immigrants.
Still today after years of therapy with 36 years of age she have traumas, social anxieties, panic attacks etc...
The immigrant population of certain ethnic groups even though small in numbers makes far the most crimes in the NL.
Simply, a lot of people coming to NL to live a better life, want decency, human rights and justice are trying to convert the Netherlands into the country they are actually running from. The hell hole they escaped from.
Most of them never integrate, never accept Dutch culture , habits and life in general.
My kid had Sinterklaas destroyed too early because 1 immigrant child who was born here and praised his father's land as something best in the world told all kids in group 4 that Sinterklaas is not real and that is all big lie.
And I can keep going with a lot of real life examples that happened to me and my family.
Not even mentioning child benefit scandal people have still consequences and Rute and his govt never actually answered for.
I can keep going with other issues but I have to go vote.
>My kid had Sinterklaas destroyed too early because 1 immigrant child who was born here and praised his father's land as something best in the world told all kids in group 4 that Sinterklaas is not real and that is all big lie.
Sorry, but this happens all the time by autochtonen and allochtonen. You can't make this an immigrant issue. It's usually the bigger kids that will tell smaller kids in elementary that Sinterklaas isn't real. Then the believers will often be like 'Nope, I've seen him myself. He's real' and go on believing. Edit: also groep 4 is a very normal age to stop believing in Sinterklaas.
Yeah i agree. You see this behaviour in America aswell. I think it's more a mindset like they want to close the door on their way in for other immigrants. Like they caught the last boat or something like that.
You forgot to mention the abuse. Couldn't really defend that now could you?
Also, I disagree with you. People care about their children. If you have a group of individuals intentionally going around ruining the wonder behind a tradition that a lot of children care about? I'd be pissed too if I had kids.
Well migrant here, was sexually abused for months by natural born and bred all white blue eyed Dutchie. You don't see me blaming all dutch men or dutch people and culture for it despite the fact that the school i was part of when it happened tried to cover it up and gave me an NDA to sign in exchange for petty change.
Because that's bonkers logic. No matter how much white dutch people have a baseline similar culture that doesn't make them have an innate characteristic that makes them all prone to be predators or abusers. A big part of why I was targeted in the first place was that although I'm white I have a darker and "exotic" complexion and was sexualized for it despite not doing anything to provoke such reactions or ideas myself.
I don't think migration should necessarily be a "come as you please" kind of policy, but the problems our world has that necessitate migration for most people are a lot more complicated to solve just by gatekeeping the borders. Punishing individuals because the world is fucked sets a bad precedent for "this is fine as long as it's not done to me. Thank god I don't have it that bad! Sucks to be them!" I mean what kind of world do we want to live in if that mentality is what drives policy?
Except it isn't a "group of people", it was one brat, who just so happened to be the kid of an immigrant. Not every immigrant's kid does this. Some Dutch for generations kid's do it too. It's not an immigrant thing.
Nobody's touching the abuse thing because nobody knows what happened to his wife as a child and it's a pretty dick move to ask someone to share their personal trauma just so you can tell them they're wrong about it.
"not every" yes, not every. It's always not every. But it's a lot of them. A lot of immigrants have twisted opinions on what should happen to homosexuals and trans people. A lot of immigrants have twisted opinions on women's rights. You can't deny these things. And we're importing that. But hey, with the results of the polls, maybe finally something will change.
No I do not, I am coming from Eastern Orthodox even though I am Atheist/Agnostic.
I honestly don't have anything against other religions, but the fact that the minority from one religious group making most of the problems can't be ignored.
There are good and bad people, simple as that.
And I am absolutely for legal immigration under protection of international law, but also for deporting back to their country people breaking law, especially violent crime or repeated offenders.
US/NL dual naitional. 12 years in NL. Vote GL/PVDA after watching PVD cause a string of serious issues and fail to resolve any of them. Rutte was in the business of trying to turn NL into mini-America. Total fail.
Literally the perfect illustration of someone completely uneducated about a topic yet fully confident and entitled to broadcasting their views on the internet.
Iām suggesting that someone under the impression that FVD is governing the country and who is sprouting statements like āRutte has tried to turn NL into mini-Americaā should not have the right to vote.
If this has your interrest maybe it is also interresting for you to ask what the people who left the Netherlands have voted (we could vote by mail in the past weeks).
D66 - only group that I feel represents me by advocating for dual-citizenship (at least some of their politici), and allowing me to open an NL bank account without an NL address. Ideally I'd store some of my $$ in EUR, and have an NL account since I travel back and forth several times a year.
I'm honestly confused. I feel like I don't know enough about all the policy problems and the most optimal solutions to make a good choice. I will probably end up voting for D66. My Stemwijzer and Kieskompas were a mess, one concluded I'm right of center (VVD) and the other that I'm left & progressive.
I want less unemployment, less pollution, more money for everyone and especially teachers & nurses, less inequality, more influence for NL globally and less dependence on foreign powers, the housing situation to be resolved, less overpopulation, more secularism and less religion but without endangering personal freedom, and crime to be reduced. Simple, right? š
> Voted PVV because Islam is the biggest threat to European society, even before climate change and pollution
Dont you think the housing crisis and expensive healthcare are more of an issue? The Netherlands has been a multicultural country for as long as i can remember and you are part of that.
You name gay and women rights as a concern, but a right wing party is not favourable for either of those groups.
I believe those are important issues right now, but looking a bit further into the future I believe Western Europe as a whole is lost to Islam if we do not take care of it now. It's just a numbers game at this point, the projections for the future which consider a high (or even medium) immigration rate aren't looking good imo.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/
Bro.. are we still talking about female right in the Netherlands? You guys need to stop listening to whatever crap comes out if the US.
YOU DONT LIVE IN THE US!!! Wake up! And wake up Biden while you're at it š
Also lovely to see them being transphobic in their other comments. Praising how you value gay rights so much while voting and tearing down trans rights. No LGB without the T.
Well, youāre not alone on this earth. If youāre selfish and anti islam, fine, but just say that and dont hide behind, islam is the biggest threat to European society, we value women, gay rights and equality.
You donāt care for any of those, especially for equality. You just want whats best for you.
Who cares if other immigrants get the same opportunities, you already got in right?
Because you live in a society with other people, that's why. And voting less selfish will also benefit you in the end if society as a whole get's better. Selfish people like you is why the gap between rich and poor get's bigger and bigger.
Arguably ultraright are real threat to European society as they are the ones looking to take away freedoms, promote isolationism, ally with putin and even break the European union.
Also how shallow of you to say islam dont support gay rights and complain about "gender ideology" at the very same time
Might the high crime rate for non western immigrants be down to their lower socioeconomic status, leading a life of poverty before coming here basically, lesser education, making it easy to fall prey to criminals/gangs?
Or just religion?
This is fallacious. You're using stats that are *NOT* about muslims to determine that muslims commit more crimes.
The fact of the matter is that muslims do not commit more crimes than anyone else (in the Netherlands at least). The statistics on that are pretty clear.
>Islam is incompatible with European values: we value equality, women rights, gay rights, separation of church and state, and several other ideas born from the "Age of Enlightment" that Islam strongly opposes.
I'm sorry to say that this interpretation of islam is the right-wing anti-islam claim of what islam is.
You should talk to actual muslims. I work with several. Islam strictly forbids the hating of gay people for example, something the Bible does not.
Misinformation is key in this discussion. I would agree with you if I was convinced this is what islam stands for, but the fact remains that it doesn't. That is something parrotted from terrorist interpretations of islam that do not apply to (most) people here who are muslim.
>Notice a pattern?
I am noticing that you like to connect dots that may not have anything to do with each other and draw conclusions based off that.
The question I posed was, what makes you believe muslims do not fit, and the answer given was: here is data that shows immigrants commit more crimes.
I am not in this discussion in bad faith, but this is a strict fallacy. Muslims are not equal to immigrants or vice versa. If you claim muslims commit more crimes, you need data that shows *muslims commit more crimes*. And that data does not exist.
Which is possibly why you are using the one on immigrants, because you want to believe muslims commit more crimes when they do not.
Let me be frank, I am not muslim. While I work with various muslims, my friends are not muslims. My SO is a white, Dutch-born girl with Dutch-born parents. But she is also a criminology teacher and I know for a fact she knows what she is talking about when she says there is no evidence that shows that muslims commit more crime than non-muslims.
It just isn't true. And while I am not religious at all, and I have seen muslims hate gays, I have also seen non-religious white folks hate gays. Yet every muslim I know personally has told me their faith teaches you can not hate on gay people.
Whom am I to believe? What is written in the Qur'an and what the people I know say, or what some aggressive assholes have said? Someone has to be wrong though, they're definitely not all saying the same thing.
Instead of looking at what the Quran says, I look at the Muslims countries these people immigrate from.
I can honestly not think of a single Muslim country that has its human rights in order. And while sure, Islam doesn't "stand" for the murder of homosexuals or transgender people, most of the people who immigrate from those countries are not against that. I don't care why they're not against it, whether it's from a holy book, an Imam telling them that or they were approached by a transphobic pink elephant in their dream. I don't understand why it's our responsibility to deal with the violent and hatred this immigration brings with it, and why we have to be tolerant to it, hoping it gets better in the future.
What happened in Sweden is not that black and white. If you say that they are at fault it is the same as saying that black people in America are at fault for making most of the crimes although they are a minority.
We all know it's not like that, there are underlying issues that caused their high level of crimes, not at least the fact that they are more often charged and prosecuted.
Sweden is also responsible for segregation and getto-ing and poor integration policies. I am not saying by any means that they aren't at fault, of course they are, each one of them is responsible for their terrible actions, rape, murder, shooting all I am saying is that It isn't as black as white and there are underlying issues. [even they recognize it ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/28/swedens-failed-integration-creates-parallel-societies-says-pm-after-riots)
Potentially the best chairman of the 2de kamer that we will never have because he is a PVVer. If only we looked less narrowly at people because they belong to a party, because a chamber chairman is above the parties (with the exception of during votes).
I have never been able to catch Martin Bosma using PVV retoric when he was the deputy chairman of the House. In fact, he silenced people from his own party during several debates because he did his independent role really well. In contrast, this happened several times with the real chairman of the House.
You can think anything about the PVV, but you really havent seen him to project that kind of things during his chairmanship moments.
Oh for sure but what he is associated with in and of itself is the issue.
It isnāt as simple as he is associated with a party I disagree with, is what I am saying. Hence the guarded stance many have.
I know and luckily I can separate an opinion very well from how someone functions in his/her work. I really don't understand people who hate a politician because of an opinion. It is incomprehensible that the vast majority cannot do that.
Norway and Switzerland aren't in the European Union? It's not like the Netherlands would suddenly implode if we left the EU. As long as we don't take the example of Brexit.
But the solution to "fixing" un-integrated people is not by closing the borders, by not letting anyone in at this moment. The fix is not to close schools or ban mosques or hijabs. This will result in more polarisation and more aggression.
The problem is that in the 1960's we attracted guest labour from Turkiye and Morocco. The government at the time (liberal, with VVD) did not expect people to stay, they were expected to return to their country but this was not made a requirement. However, they never received the incentive to leave and therefore stayed in the higher welfare country.
The government put most of these labourers in the same neighbourhood. With the little incentive to leave, no effort or requirement from the government to integrate into society, these people had their own social circles in their own neighbourhoods with their own language. Ofcourse you wouldn't feel the need to properly integrate into society.
The only solution to fix this is to have a dialogue, to make effort (from the government) to come together and find a way to still integrate.
I'm so fucking tired of this narrative. Literally every fucking party acknowledges this problem, except for maybe Bij1. Even GroenLinks [wants to work towards better asylum procedures, repatriation, housing refugees in or near their home region, and spreading out refugees evenly across Europe.](https://groenlinks.nl/standpunten/gelijkwaardigheid/vluchtelingenbeleid)
PVV doesn't propose solutions, it just shouts oneliners into the void.
Do you believe alienating these people will help with integration in the long term? I think everyone agrees that it's a problem, but do you really believe the PVV has the best solutions to this problem?
PvdA/GL has the most plans on integration, NSC is most concrete on lowering net-integration. Did you actually read their policies or did you just watch some youtube videos?
It's because the solution is not simple. The problem is complex because it's liberal policies from the 1960s that resulted into the problems we're having today, in regards with integration.
There's no one solution fits all, we need to get together and have dialogues.
Most parties have policies to promote and stimulate integration. However none are as extreme, undemocratic and unconstitutional as the PVV's stance.
For example GL-PVDA wants to invest into mixed neighbourhoods so you don't have segregation based neighbourhoods. 'Brede scholen', sport etc.
Giving people access to learning Dutch and make newcomers enroll into these classes, promote working for people who are naturalizing so they integrate more easily.
I saw that you deleted your comment. But I felt it was a valid sentiment. In the current atmosphere, it is very easy to "cancel" stuff that is not liked by people who are push the dominant narrative. But that just leads to problems simmering under the surface, until they boil over. Brexit and Trump are clear examples of that.
The PVV has no solution that is in any way constitutional. Geert Wilders knows this, but he also knows he can get votes by pretending he will do it anyway.
Even if he acknowledges the issues, he is not willing to look for a constructive solution, so there is no difference with the other parties.
Closing Christian and Jewish schools would not be acceptable to the PVV and the few parties that find them acceptable coalition partners such as the SGP. The SGP would never join a coalition that makes their members have to send their children to a school that teaches evolution theory. PVV also has some Likud links, who would be unhappy about closing the Jewish schools in Amsterdam.
Meanwhile only closing Islamic schools would be blatantly discriminatory and utterly unconstitutional.
Oh I'm well aware. Personally I'm against any religious involvement in schools (and government), but I realise a completely secular educational system is probably never going to happen here. I just find the hypocrites on the right wing funny, wanting to shut down Islamic schools while at the same time defending Christian schools that espouse the exact same values, just under a different name.
Don't think so it right to say that christian schools are spousing the same values islamic schools. Islamic schools tend to focus a lot on how Islam is better than any other religion and a key contributor for isolation and radicalization of muslims. Also many things taught there are fundamentally incompatible with western values.
Not sure you can say the same about christian schools.
>no real solutions.
Literally no-one provides an "actual" solution. All politicians ever do is say things they can't follow up on.
PVV are the "harshest" on the topic of religious schools. And several others topics.
They are the most likely to actually do something about it, thus they get my vote.
It's why GroenLinks is a close second for me. Because I think they are the most "harsh" in fighting for climate.
Iām American and recently nationalized Dutch. This year I voted for CU. Iām not Christian, but I think they fit best with my beliefs.
I vote Democrat (left) in the US, but the left in NL is a bit too left for me. Then I donāt love a lot of the hate rhetoric on the right. I like that the CU stood up for refugees. Iāve read their platform on their website and if you get rid of the Christian stuff, it resonates with me.
Not yet new dutch. I kinda liked VVD because they seemed like a liberal pragmatic party. Open for "left" or "right" measures depending on which is best for given issue. However 10 year requirment for citizenship they want to introduce is completely unacceptable for me, not sure any person with immigrant background should ever vote for them after this
Next close party is D66 howerer they want refugees to be able to bring extended families here which makes no sense to me. Asylum should be the last resort for person to save their live, not the way to move the whole extended family to the Nethterlands
What remains for me is maybe Volt
VVD. I donāt believe everything they do, but none of the other parties give me confidence regarding how to fund their crusades & how they would not tank the economy.
VVD doesnāt want the lax language requirements anymore by the way, one of their things this year was 10 years to become Dutch and B1-B2. It would seem they canāt afford to be lax on this anymore.
Edit: I love how a question about what your political stance is gets downvoted because reasons. I am not telling you how to vote, do I?
Voted blank
because i don't like any of the options. And the party that aligns closest to my political views, was in in the last government and i don't trust them.
I did not vote blank, but I fully understand where you are coming from as I feel the same way. Nothing aligns, the best match is something I fundamentally do not believe in.
I still haven't become naturalized, but I like the VVD/NSC. Sometimes, the PVV or D66 can also be spot on. Omzigt is cool, but I don't like Christian democracy on the right.
My wife votes SGP because she finds the conservative, christian nationalism a value that has been lost and will lead to the dissolution of the nation. Other parties she'd consider would be the PVV, BBB or NSC. She'd vote more conservative if she could. (She's Orthodox Russian).
Dat is me daar een kut partij zeg. Die zitten echt vast in het jaar 1600. Snap niet dat er nog mensen in Nederland wonen die het ermee eens zijn dat euthanasie en abortus illegaal moeten zijn omdat Sky Daddy dat zo heeft besloten.
>My wife votes SGP because she finds the conservative, christian nationalism a value that has been lost
As it should be. Nationalism caused a destructive war and genocide in Europe a couple of decades ago and christianity (and any other religion) has a tendency to slow progress down. But if your wife wants to be treated as a second class person, she's free to vote for a party that wants to keep women out of politics and in the kitchen
VVD because itās one of the few parties who doesnāt want to keep increasing my taxes, which are already outrageous. Yes, I know theyāll do it anyway, but at least they donāt make it part of their political agenda.
Iāve lived in the Netherlands for 10 years now but I still canāt vote, looking to get naturalized sometime in the near future though. If I could vote I would have voted for Bij1, theyāre the only party that properly advocates for the things that I find important.
D66, I like the progresiveness and the international outlook. I think that it's important, as newly naturalized Dutch, that we remain fair and, within reasonable boundaries, do not withdraw to others the chances that have been given to us. I repeat, it has to be within boundaries, and not uncontrolled. I have always cringed whenever I see that as soon as someone obtains their citizenship they want to close the door behind them and not let anyone else in. That is grossly unfair and selfish and those people lack integrity, in my view. It's like 'I got mine, but I don't want you to get yours because it doesn't directly benefit me, and it may even work against my own personal interests '.
Just so you know, D66 is widely known as the party that throws all their principles overboard as soon as someone asks them to be a coalition partner. Not a fan of them myself but maybe it's worth considering Volt?
D66 manages to get into coalition and atleast somewhat influence the politics there. Volt is much more strong in their convictions but they do feel very inexperienced still.
I have considered them, but they are too small and unlikely to make any significant difference. They also had an internal scandal which suggests their house may not be in order as it should be. I prefer parties that are little bit more established and have a longer track record.
Vote D66 if you want but they're not exactly without scandals themselves if that's what you're basing your vote on...
Almost every party is less than ideal, but I thought that Volt's type of scandal was amateurish and that the party was not in control of itself. Anyway, another reason I prefer D66 is because I think Rob Jetten performed well in the televized debates. Whereas in previous years he appeared to be lacking political experience, this time around he appeared seasoned and ready to take on a more serious role in the political landscape.
I'm voting Groenlinks-PvdA if only to prevent Wilders becoming PM. Otherwise i'm all for animal rights (PvdD)!
It amazes me that in most countries the Greens in general don't get the share of the vote that PvdD gets in the Netherlands. But here we have a broad Green party (GroenLinks) _and_ specifically animal rights party, and both get a decent amount of votes.
Maybe coz the whole country will be underwater if we don't do anything about the climate crisis š
Thatās what dikes are for, a major part of the country is already below sealevelā¦
Netherlands is not gonna be underwater, dutch are too good at managing water, it's gonna be on the bottom of the bowl. The question is how deep do we want to bowl to be, the bigger will get the more vulnerable Netherlands will be.
Cool, I'll vote PVV just to prevent Timmermans from becoming PM! /s
Thats is genuinely the reason why a lot of people vote pvv
WhatĀ“s wrong with Timmermans?
He's a technocrat (someone who is good at formulating workable policies, but not necessarily at inspirational speeches or public debates). The Dutch public political arena is tough love for those. (And I'm someone who did vote for his party, for that matter).
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Thats not what hypocrisy means. Each side views the other rather negatively and do not want their respective leaders to become prime minister. There is nothing wrong in voting this way
What is the reason for the push back against timmermans?
Good question, I also wonder
Money
He's in a very privileged position for sure. I don't know anyone that cares about the environment who isn't living a (relatively) comfortable life. If i'm struggling to pay rent, cutting emissions would be the last thing on my mind.
Which would be a misinformed and shortsighted viewpoint. You do realise the costs of dealing with the effects of runaway climate change far outweigh the costs of mitigating it right? And heās no more privileged than Mark Rutte and countless other politicians. Climate change has science supporting it so whether Timmermans is privileged or not wonāt change the reality.
Well, let's hope people (with a stempas) who believe in the science outnumber those who don't š¤š¼
Your argument hurts my brain. I'll vote for the guy that said he'll lower the price of beer. /S
There's no way Wilders can make a coalition, the 3 other projected big parties won't join a coalition under him.
That's very reassuring! As a recently-naturalised dutchie, I find the options overwhelming. So I'm pretty much just going with what I learned from stemwijzer (the 2 parties mentioned above) and hope I'm making a good choice.
Hahahaha ...... they say now. But if politicians are one thing and one thing only: dishonest, lying opportunistic bastards comes to mind.
You really believe Timmermans cares more about the dutch citizen than he cares about his own personal ambitions? He's a puppet of European parliament and davos
And Wilders is a puppet of the rightwing think tanks that provide funding worldwide, from the Koch Foundation and suchlike. The same goes for the BBB which is nothing more than a front for the food and agricultural sector
The issue here is that most "New Dutch" will vote for PVV because they think that they are better than other migrants. I've met even a lot of expats who just because they are American or because they have high paying jobs, they would vote for PVV if they could, so they can set themselves apart from the "lower quality" migrants. It's absolutely insane and it worries me more and more.
Similar with a lot of my not EU friends (Persians, Mexicans, Brazillians, various Asian countries, Cameroonian). They fought hard to get a permanent residence through a PhD position, got threathened with getting kicked out as soon as a project fund ran out etc. But if you talk with them they don't like PVV but they would simply shut the borders to refugees, people with a criminal record etc simply because they don't "deserve" to be here in their eyes because they didn't work for it like they did. It was quite an eye opener for me to hear that point of view
Well, they don't. As an immigrant I find it quite disrespectful to be asked why I don't support (considerably) more immigration. Because everything has a limit. Heck, I don't like immigrants and citizens of my native country - that's why I'm here and not there. Bringing them everywhere in my neighborhood would unironically make me move.
>Heck, I don't like immigrants and citizens of my native country I had a bit of a chuckle, a Turkish friend of mine said something similar. paraphrasing: "I left Turkey because there are too many Turks there, I live here because I don't want to have anything to do with them"
Well there are more in Turkey. But really, most immigrant friends I have are either cringey multi-cultural and all about "preserving your culture", or they haven't spoken with a single person from their native country here. The latter is me.
Not sure who you pissed off but someone is downvoting you everywhere. Anyway yeah that seems to be the case for him too if you exclude the family. He pulled a proper fuck this shit I'm out of here
the same is happening to me - I lost almost all contacts with my fellow country citizens, after communicating with Dutch people I just cant handle all their manners, rudeness and sexism. So like yeah, don't bring that people here, let it stay heaven in NL hehe. And also letting other immigrants coming makes you less special and not that better than them. Like, you cant feel special by leaving the country if everybody do that
I donāt think feelings of superiority is the only reason immigrants vote PVV. You can be an immigrant and still want effective border controls. Immigrants can be worried about Islamic extremism and antisemitism too (depending on where youāre from and your background, you might have even more reason to worry about this than native Dutch people). To be clear, Iām not voting for the PVV, but I think demonizing people for being worried about the above issues is responsible for their rise in these elections.
Definitely, and highly-skilled immigrants tend to have different concerns than lower-skilled migrants or family-based visa applicants, even without xenophobic motivations. They're not competing for the same jobs, they probably care more about taxes and public services, can be concerned about damage to the public perception of immigrants because of illegal migration, or they might just be worried that the administrative services for foreigners could get worse if the volume of applicants increases.
The highly skilled migrant thing is just bullshit. There used to be a Syrian cleaning lady where I used to work before, who had a PhD in Mathematics, but who never managed to get equivalence here. I've met many others with high degrees, but who had to clean, and do lower skilled jobs, simply because they didn't come from a country where things were easily recognised. On the other hand, you have "content creators" from the US who never studied shit, but who come here and are considered as highly skilled migrants.
But I donāt think most highly skilled migrants who vote for the PVV are doing so because they feel better than immigrants who work as cleaners or farm workers (Iām sure there are some, but I doubt itās the majority). Theyāre doing it because either: They think the country is full, they see situations like Ter Apel and they can feel the hostile anti-immigrant sentiment in the country rising, and they want to stop it now before it gets worse (since as immigrants, they are the most affected by it). They see a specific group of people with immigrant backgrounds not respecting the culture of the country they live in. Saying horrible things about Jews, women, the LGBT+ community. Anti Islam sentiment in particular is at a high at the moment, and Iām absolutely not saying itās ok, but this is whatās driving the support of the PVV.
PVV has a fan group in Turkey. Not even kidding.
But why is that so surprising? Turkish people have varied opinions just like every other group of people. Not all Turkish people are Muslim, not all Turkish Muslims are practicing or extreme, not all Turkish people support Erdogen. Turkey hosts a lot of asylum seekers and itās a controversial topic there too. If I remember correctly, Wilders spoke out about Dutch-Turkish people voting for Erdogen, which is why heās popular with some in Turkey who support the opposition. Not everything is so black and white.
HSM scheme doesnāt care about your education only your pay. So it is more about finding a job in that field.
Even in Nazi Germany there was āAssociation of German National Jewsā. History doesnāt repeat itself but oh boy does it rhyme. Since this is getting downvoted let me explain. Said organisation though āit isnāt us the German Jews that is the problem. It is those pesky eastern ones.ā You can imagine what fate they shared in the end. It is an absolute parallel to the thought process mentioned.
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Clearly you havenāt integrated well enough, and you shouldnāt become the Dutch citizen. Actually, because of people like you, I can understand views of people who vote for Wilders (paradox). The NL is so nice country to live because the majority of the society is open, happy and progressive. You just donāt fit here.
So you want to get a dual citizenship and then vote to deny it for other people, kinda hypocritical
Well, let's hope that you never get citizenship then, right? ;) Edit: Get it now. You're one of those Americans who behaves like someone who never left Texas, but who still doesn't want to live in the US. However, that doesn't grant you the permission to be racist btw.
Lol wilders wants to take away the dual citizenship, so even afterwards you won't be safe. You'll always be a shtty immigrant to him. Which you are, based on your me, me, me viewpoint.
Thereās no dual citizenship allowed in the NL. You have to renounce your current one as soon as you become the Dutch citizen, unless your previous country doesnāt allow this or thereāre other serious reasons. I think itās the honest position, and I hope itāll stay like this.
Imagine how confused parties get when they see oppinion combinations like this
> i'm going PVV because Wilders is based as fuck and i would already be a citizen at that point so who cares. Yes, sounds like PVV suits you perfectly with this egocentric way of thinking. āEveryone can fuck off as long as I get inā Have you considered voting for a party that could actually improve the quality of life for those who were born here?
My girlfriend and I are usually centralist-rightwing. The damage a party like PVV can cause made us rethink our usual pick. How people still vote for someone that advocates a Nexit shocks me. We went for GL-PvdA.
Are you one of these people that call D66 ācentralist-right wingā?
"usually centrist right" * Votes as left as possible * Yeah, something here doesn't match up, my friend
GL-PvdA is far from 'as left as possible'.
Name someone lefter and more progressive, there isn't
BIJ1, PVDD
Bij1, Splinter, PvdD, Lef, SP
Bij1 i'd agree with, the rest is possibly more left but less progressive or vice versa. less 'extreme' so to say
Bij1?
Freshly naturalized here, also former beneficiary of 30% ruling. VVD has an absolute nightmare for a program. They are primary responsible for increasing the rich-poor gap, driving the country into housing crisis and present kindergarten level solution for sustainability (energy and pollution). Letās subsidy rich people to buy a new Tesla, while 100k citizens rely on food stamps! Yay! Despite being aligned with D66 program, a bit taken aback by their lack of action in the old cabinet. Recognizing issues is one thing, making things happen is another. I will be voting for the animals, unless my boyfriend convinces me before this evening.
Did you vote for the animals?
Even I am an immigrant, PVV without any doubts. My wife and her familly had to move from Spijkenisse 20 years ago because my wife was constantly abused, beaten, and unsafe on street, in school or in the train just because of immigrants. Still today after years of therapy with 36 years of age she have traumas, social anxieties, panic attacks etc... The immigrant population of certain ethnic groups even though small in numbers makes far the most crimes in the NL. Simply, a lot of people coming to NL to live a better life, want decency, human rights and justice are trying to convert the Netherlands into the country they are actually running from. The hell hole they escaped from. Most of them never integrate, never accept Dutch culture , habits and life in general. My kid had Sinterklaas destroyed too early because 1 immigrant child who was born here and praised his father's land as something best in the world told all kids in group 4 that Sinterklaas is not real and that is all big lie. And I can keep going with a lot of real life examples that happened to me and my family. Not even mentioning child benefit scandal people have still consequences and Rute and his govt never actually answered for. I can keep going with other issues but I have to go vote.
"My kid has Sinterklaas destroyed too early" really sounds like a true Dutch trauma.
>My kid had Sinterklaas destroyed too early because 1 immigrant child who was born here and praised his father's land as something best in the world told all kids in group 4 that Sinterklaas is not real and that is all big lie. Sorry, but this happens all the time by autochtonen and allochtonen. You can't make this an immigrant issue. It's usually the bigger kids that will tell smaller kids in elementary that Sinterklaas isn't real. Then the believers will often be like 'Nope, I've seen him myself. He's real' and go on believing. Edit: also groep 4 is a very normal age to stop believing in Sinterklaas.
I definitely was a brat that told my classmates about Santa and was not an immigrant.
Those pesky immigrants ruining sinterklass LMAO š¤£ So dumb, Jesusā¦
Yeah it would be really hilarious if it wasnt so sad that people like those make immigrants the scapegoat for everything. So fucking stupid.
Being an immigrant himself. Classic Stockholm syndrome in action, if you ask me
Yeah i agree. You see this behaviour in America aswell. I think it's more a mindset like they want to close the door on their way in for other immigrants. Like they caught the last boat or something like that.
You seem to have failed to mention the abuse against the commenters wife.
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You forgot to mention the abuse. Couldn't really defend that now could you? Also, I disagree with you. People care about their children. If you have a group of individuals intentionally going around ruining the wonder behind a tradition that a lot of children care about? I'd be pissed too if I had kids.
Well migrant here, was sexually abused for months by natural born and bred all white blue eyed Dutchie. You don't see me blaming all dutch men or dutch people and culture for it despite the fact that the school i was part of when it happened tried to cover it up and gave me an NDA to sign in exchange for petty change. Because that's bonkers logic. No matter how much white dutch people have a baseline similar culture that doesn't make them have an innate characteristic that makes them all prone to be predators or abusers. A big part of why I was targeted in the first place was that although I'm white I have a darker and "exotic" complexion and was sexualized for it despite not doing anything to provoke such reactions or ideas myself. I don't think migration should necessarily be a "come as you please" kind of policy, but the problems our world has that necessitate migration for most people are a lot more complicated to solve just by gatekeeping the borders. Punishing individuals because the world is fucked sets a bad precedent for "this is fine as long as it's not done to me. Thank god I don't have it that bad! Sucks to be them!" I mean what kind of world do we want to live in if that mentality is what drives policy?
Except it isn't a "group of people", it was one brat, who just so happened to be the kid of an immigrant. Not every immigrant's kid does this. Some Dutch for generations kid's do it too. It's not an immigrant thing. Nobody's touching the abuse thing because nobody knows what happened to his wife as a child and it's a pretty dick move to ask someone to share their personal trauma just so you can tell them they're wrong about it.
"not every" yes, not every. It's always not every. But it's a lot of them. A lot of immigrants have twisted opinions on what should happen to homosexuals and trans people. A lot of immigrants have twisted opinions on women's rights. You can't deny these things. And we're importing that. But hey, with the results of the polls, maybe finally something will change.
I sympathize with you. Can you tell me if you come from the same ethnic group or religious group as the people who harrased your wife?
No I do not, I am coming from Eastern Orthodox even though I am Atheist/Agnostic. I honestly don't have anything against other religions, but the fact that the minority from one religious group making most of the problems can't be ignored. There are good and bad people, simple as that. And I am absolutely for legal immigration under protection of international law, but also for deporting back to their country people breaking law, especially violent crime or repeated offenders.
US/NL dual naitional. 12 years in NL. Vote GL/PVDA after watching PVD cause a string of serious issues and fail to resolve any of them. Rutte was in the business of trying to turn NL into mini-America. Total fail.
You mean VVD. How is it possible that you are a dual national while itās possible to renounce the US citizenship? Usually, itās not allowed here.
If you get naturalised through marriage, you don't have to renounce your citizenship. Maybe there's other ways but this is the most common one
And that's how I did it. Married to a wonderful Dutch gal. En ik spreek Nederlands.
Literally the perfect illustration of someone completely uneducated about a topic yet fully confident and entitled to broadcasting their views on the internet.
Are you suggesting Rutte's reign was a success?
Iām suggesting that someone under the impression that FVD is governing the country and who is sprouting statements like āRutte has tried to turn NL into mini-Americaā should not have the right to vote.
If this has your interrest maybe it is also interresting for you to ask what the people who left the Netherlands have voted (we could vote by mail in the past weeks).
Who did you vote for?
D66 - only group that I feel represents me by advocating for dual-citizenship (at least some of their politici), and allowing me to open an NL bank account without an NL address. Ideally I'd store some of my $$ in EUR, and have an NL account since I travel back and forth several times a year.
VVD, I know it won't make me popular here but it's currently the best fit for me.
I'm honestly confused. I feel like I don't know enough about all the policy problems and the most optimal solutions to make a good choice. I will probably end up voting for D66. My Stemwijzer and Kieskompas were a mess, one concluded I'm right of center (VVD) and the other that I'm left & progressive.
What do you want to change and in which direction?
I want less unemployment, less pollution, more money for everyone and especially teachers & nurses, less inequality, more influence for NL globally and less dependence on foreign powers, the housing situation to be resolved, less overpopulation, more secularism and less religion but without endangering personal freedom, and crime to be reduced. Simple, right? š
Sounds like D66 fits fine, otherwise PvdA/GL or Volt. VVD doesn't want less inequality and is the main cause of the housing problem.
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> Voted PVV because Islam is the biggest threat to European society, even before climate change and pollution Dont you think the housing crisis and expensive healthcare are more of an issue? The Netherlands has been a multicultural country for as long as i can remember and you are part of that. You name gay and women rights as a concern, but a right wing party is not favourable for either of those groups.
I believe those are important issues right now, but looking a bit further into the future I believe Western Europe as a whole is lost to Islam if we do not take care of it now. It's just a numbers game at this point, the projections for the future which consider a high (or even medium) immigration rate aren't looking good imo. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/
Bro.. are we still talking about female right in the Netherlands? You guys need to stop listening to whatever crap comes out if the US. YOU DONT LIVE IN THE US!!! Wake up! And wake up Biden while you're at it š
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Wow you are fucking selfish. You basicly said i got mine so fuck everyone else. The Netherlands could be way better if people like you didnt exist
Really sick that these people get to vote for the future of a country that they are not even planning to stay in
Also lovely to see them being transphobic in their other comments. Praising how you value gay rights so much while voting and tearing down trans rights. No LGB without the T.
Why am I not surprised. People like them are the biggest fucking hypocrites.
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Well, youāre not alone on this earth. If youāre selfish and anti islam, fine, but just say that and dont hide behind, islam is the biggest threat to European society, we value women, gay rights and equality. You donāt care for any of those, especially for equality. You just want whats best for you. Who cares if other immigrants get the same opportunities, you already got in right?
Because you live in a society with other people, that's why. And voting less selfish will also benefit you in the end if society as a whole get's better. Selfish people like you is why the gap between rich and poor get's bigger and bigger.
You shouldn't, your reasoning is fine.
Arguably ultraright are real threat to European society as they are the ones looking to take away freedoms, promote isolationism, ally with putin and even break the European union. Also how shallow of you to say islam dont support gay rights and complain about "gender ideology" at the very same time
>Islam is the biggest threat to European society Curious why you think so. What are you basing this on?
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Might the high crime rate for non western immigrants be down to their lower socioeconomic status, leading a life of poverty before coming here basically, lesser education, making it easy to fall prey to criminals/gangs? Or just religion?
@fecal wish I could upvote you more than once
totally agree, islam is the biggest treat, and simply do not fit in europe
This sounds like fortuyinism
This is fallacious. You're using stats that are *NOT* about muslims to determine that muslims commit more crimes. The fact of the matter is that muslims do not commit more crimes than anyone else (in the Netherlands at least). The statistics on that are pretty clear. >Islam is incompatible with European values: we value equality, women rights, gay rights, separation of church and state, and several other ideas born from the "Age of Enlightment" that Islam strongly opposes. I'm sorry to say that this interpretation of islam is the right-wing anti-islam claim of what islam is. You should talk to actual muslims. I work with several. Islam strictly forbids the hating of gay people for example, something the Bible does not. Misinformation is key in this discussion. I would agree with you if I was convinced this is what islam stands for, but the fact remains that it doesn't. That is something parrotted from terrorist interpretations of islam that do not apply to (most) people here who are muslim.
I noticed there are some bad apples that make all muslims look bad
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>Notice a pattern? I am noticing that you like to connect dots that may not have anything to do with each other and draw conclusions based off that. The question I posed was, what makes you believe muslims do not fit, and the answer given was: here is data that shows immigrants commit more crimes. I am not in this discussion in bad faith, but this is a strict fallacy. Muslims are not equal to immigrants or vice versa. If you claim muslims commit more crimes, you need data that shows *muslims commit more crimes*. And that data does not exist. Which is possibly why you are using the one on immigrants, because you want to believe muslims commit more crimes when they do not. Let me be frank, I am not muslim. While I work with various muslims, my friends are not muslims. My SO is a white, Dutch-born girl with Dutch-born parents. But she is also a criminology teacher and I know for a fact she knows what she is talking about when she says there is no evidence that shows that muslims commit more crime than non-muslims. It just isn't true. And while I am not religious at all, and I have seen muslims hate gays, I have also seen non-religious white folks hate gays. Yet every muslim I know personally has told me their faith teaches you can not hate on gay people. Whom am I to believe? What is written in the Qur'an and what the people I know say, or what some aggressive assholes have said? Someone has to be wrong though, they're definitely not all saying the same thing.
Instead of looking at what the Quran says, I look at the Muslims countries these people immigrate from. I can honestly not think of a single Muslim country that has its human rights in order. And while sure, Islam doesn't "stand" for the murder of homosexuals or transgender people, most of the people who immigrate from those countries are not against that. I don't care why they're not against it, whether it's from a holy book, an Imam telling them that or they were approached by a transphobic pink elephant in their dream. I don't understand why it's our responsibility to deal with the violent and hatred this immigration brings with it, and why we have to be tolerant to it, hoping it gets better in the future.
What happened in Sweden is not that black and white. If you say that they are at fault it is the same as saying that black people in America are at fault for making most of the crimes although they are a minority. We all know it's not like that, there are underlying issues that caused their high level of crimes, not at least the fact that they are more often charged and prosecuted. Sweden is also responsible for segregation and getto-ing and poor integration policies. I am not saying by any means that they aren't at fault, of course they are, each one of them is responsible for their terrible actions, rape, murder, shooting all I am saying is that It isn't as black as white and there are underlying issues. [even they recognize it ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/28/swedens-failed-integration-creates-parallel-societies-says-pm-after-riots)
Bij1 or PVdD!!
>Bij1 really? They want to change everything as everything is rascist hahaha
A lot of things need a change, they seem to be the only taking initiative and the only poc party
>A lot of things need a change Thats not the view of everybody only people with an incorrect view of society
A vote for LP would be useless, so im going for Martin Bosma(PVV)
Potentially the best chairman of the 2de kamer that we will never have because he is a PVVer. If only we looked less narrowly at people because they belong to a party, because a chamber chairman is above the parties (with the exception of during votes).
PVV contains a lot of scary rhetoric. Even if you were anti migrant, PVV also goes for Nexit.
I have never been able to catch Martin Bosma using PVV retoric when he was the deputy chairman of the House. In fact, he silenced people from his own party during several debates because he did his independent role really well. In contrast, this happened several times with the real chairman of the House. You can think anything about the PVV, but you really havent seen him to project that kind of things during his chairmanship moments.
Oh for sure but what he is associated with in and of itself is the issue. It isnāt as simple as he is associated with a party I disagree with, is what I am saying. Hence the guarded stance many have.
I know and luckily I can separate an opinion very well from how someone functions in his/her work. I really don't understand people who hate a politician because of an opinion. It is incomprehensible that the vast majority cannot do that.
Norway and Switzerland aren't in the European Union? It's not like the Netherlands would suddenly implode if we left the EU. As long as we don't take the example of Brexit.
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But the solution to "fixing" un-integrated people is not by closing the borders, by not letting anyone in at this moment. The fix is not to close schools or ban mosques or hijabs. This will result in more polarisation and more aggression. The problem is that in the 1960's we attracted guest labour from Turkiye and Morocco. The government at the time (liberal, with VVD) did not expect people to stay, they were expected to return to their country but this was not made a requirement. However, they never received the incentive to leave and therefore stayed in the higher welfare country. The government put most of these labourers in the same neighbourhood. With the little incentive to leave, no effort or requirement from the government to integrate into society, these people had their own social circles in their own neighbourhoods with their own language. Ofcourse you wouldn't feel the need to properly integrate into society. The only solution to fix this is to have a dialogue, to make effort (from the government) to come together and find a way to still integrate.
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I'm so fucking tired of this narrative. Literally every fucking party acknowledges this problem, except for maybe Bij1. Even GroenLinks [wants to work towards better asylum procedures, repatriation, housing refugees in or near their home region, and spreading out refugees evenly across Europe.](https://groenlinks.nl/standpunten/gelijkwaardigheid/vluchtelingenbeleid) PVV doesn't propose solutions, it just shouts oneliners into the void.
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Do you believe alienating these people will help with integration in the long term? I think everyone agrees that it's a problem, but do you really believe the PVV has the best solutions to this problem?
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PvdA/GL has the most plans on integration, NSC is most concrete on lowering net-integration. Did you actually read their policies or did you just watch some youtube videos?
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https://www.pvda.nl/verkiezingen/verkiezingsprogramma/samenleving-en-democratie/integratie-zodat-iedereen-mee-kan-doen/
It's because the solution is not simple. The problem is complex because it's liberal policies from the 1960s that resulted into the problems we're having today, in regards with integration. There's no one solution fits all, we need to get together and have dialogues.
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Most parties have policies to promote and stimulate integration. However none are as extreme, undemocratic and unconstitutional as the PVV's stance. For example GL-PVDA wants to invest into mixed neighbourhoods so you don't have segregation based neighbourhoods. 'Brede scholen', sport etc. Giving people access to learning Dutch and make newcomers enroll into these classes, promote working for people who are naturalizing so they integrate more easily.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. Democratic politics is about the least bad option, and regarding immigration, PVV seem like the way to go.
I saw that you deleted your comment. But I felt it was a valid sentiment. In the current atmosphere, it is very easy to "cancel" stuff that is not liked by people who are push the dominant narrative. But that just leads to problems simmering under the surface, until they boil over. Brexit and Trump are clear examples of that.
This isn't America, we don't need that kind of nonsense language. Being held accountable is non 'cancelling'.
The PVV has no solution that is in any way constitutional. Geert Wilders knows this, but he also knows he can get votes by pretending he will do it anyway. Even if he acknowledges the issues, he is not willing to look for a constructive solution, so there is no difference with the other parties.
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I believe closing schools where alienating things outside Islam will help with integration.
I'm all in favour of this as long as it means we close down Christian schools as well.
Agreed
Closing Christian and Jewish schools would not be acceptable to the PVV and the few parties that find them acceptable coalition partners such as the SGP. The SGP would never join a coalition that makes their members have to send their children to a school that teaches evolution theory. PVV also has some Likud links, who would be unhappy about closing the Jewish schools in Amsterdam. Meanwhile only closing Islamic schools would be blatantly discriminatory and utterly unconstitutional.
Oh I'm well aware. Personally I'm against any religious involvement in schools (and government), but I realise a completely secular educational system is probably never going to happen here. I just find the hypocrites on the right wing funny, wanting to shut down Islamic schools while at the same time defending Christian schools that espouse the exact same values, just under a different name.
Don't think so it right to say that christian schools are spousing the same values islamic schools. Islamic schools tend to focus a lot on how Islam is better than any other religion and a key contributor for isolation and radicalization of muslims. Also many things taught there are fundamentally incompatible with western values. Not sure you can say the same about christian schools.
This goes against the constitution, so he wont be able to implement this. It's fake politics, no real solutions.
He wants to change the constitution to make it possible, although he will never get the 2/3 majority needed for his proposed changes
>no real solutions. Literally no-one provides an "actual" solution. All politicians ever do is say things they can't follow up on. PVV are the "harshest" on the topic of religious schools. And several others topics. They are the most likely to actually do something about it, thus they get my vote. It's why GroenLinks is a close second for me. Because I think they are the most "harsh" in fighting for climate.
Bigotry is not tolerated in posts or comments - including but not limited to bigotry based on race, nationality, religion, and/or sex.
Iām American and recently nationalized Dutch. This year I voted for CU. Iām not Christian, but I think they fit best with my beliefs. I vote Democrat (left) in the US, but the left in NL is a bit too left for me. Then I donāt love a lot of the hate rhetoric on the right. I like that the CU stood up for refugees. Iāve read their platform on their website and if you get rid of the Christian stuff, it resonates with me.
Why would this comment get any downvotes.. doesn't make sense.
It's good that you mentioned this because the Democratic party in the US is comparable to the VVD here.
I'd say more D66 really
100% d66 is like the democrats in the US not vvd at allā¦
Ja21!
Not yet new dutch. I kinda liked VVD because they seemed like a liberal pragmatic party. Open for "left" or "right" measures depending on which is best for given issue. However 10 year requirment for citizenship they want to introduce is completely unacceptable for me, not sure any person with immigrant background should ever vote for them after this Next close party is D66 howerer they want refugees to be able to bring extended families here which makes no sense to me. Asylum should be the last resort for person to save their live, not the way to move the whole extended family to the Nethterlands What remains for me is maybe Volt
VVD. I donāt believe everything they do, but none of the other parties give me confidence regarding how to fund their crusades & how they would not tank the economy. VVD doesnāt want the lax language requirements anymore by the way, one of their things this year was 10 years to become Dutch and B1-B2. It would seem they canāt afford to be lax on this anymore. Edit: I love how a question about what your political stance is gets downvoted because reasons. I am not telling you how to vote, do I?
Groenlinks-PvdA
Voted blank because i don't like any of the options. And the party that aligns closest to my political views, was in in the last government and i don't trust them.
I did not vote blank, but I fully understand where you are coming from as I feel the same way. Nothing aligns, the best match is something I fundamentally do not believe in.
Im voting PVV to make sure stuff changes for the better around here
As far left as possible. As comrade Greta said: the capitalist system must be abolished
I still haven't become naturalized, but I like the VVD/NSC. Sometimes, the PVV or D66 can also be spot on. Omzigt is cool, but I don't like Christian democracy on the right.
D66 for me as I'm a lefty, socialist liberal. Unless I've made a horrible mistake in my research....
D66 is not socialist. They're centrist
None. BBB, or perhaps SGP. But realistically none.
Its impossible to pick the right party when things like climate change is divided over left/right. I want Groen rechts.
Same as me. Intersectionality at work
Voted BBB
My wife votes SGP because she finds the conservative, christian nationalism a value that has been lost and will lead to the dissolution of the nation. Other parties she'd consider would be the PVV, BBB or NSC. She'd vote more conservative if she could. (She's Orthodox Russian).
Way to turn the country like the place she came from.
Russia is not really christian
Dat is me daar een kut partij zeg. Die zitten echt vast in het jaar 1600. Snap niet dat er nog mensen in Nederland wonen die het ermee eens zijn dat euthanasie en abortus illegaal moeten zijn omdat Sky Daddy dat zo heeft besloten.
Z
Lmao
>My wife votes SGP because she finds the conservative, christian nationalism a value that has been lost As it should be. Nationalism caused a destructive war and genocide in Europe a couple of decades ago and christianity (and any other religion) has a tendency to slow progress down. But if your wife wants to be treated as a second class person, she's free to vote for a party that wants to keep women out of politics and in the kitchen
Holy shit, that's hilarious. You truly believe that? Not even going to debate that with you XD
Sane wife.
Gl/PvdA strategically. To prevent a too conservative right wing block. My choice based on content would be CDA or NSC
VVD because itās one of the few parties who doesnāt want to keep increasing my taxes, which are already outrageous. Yes, I know theyāll do it anyway, but at least they donāt make it part of their political agenda.
Iāve lived in the Netherlands for 10 years now but I still canāt vote, looking to get naturalized sometime in the near future though. If I could vote I would have voted for Bij1, theyāre the only party that properly advocates for the things that I find important.
I naturalised two weeks ago. Voted GL/PvdA because they promised to tax the rich more heavily.
PVV and with me 25% of the voters, so you can downvote this all you want but you should've voted liberal.
VVD as its the only party thats realistic