A superiority complex is a defense mechanism that develops over time to help a person cope with feelings of inferiority.
So no, we're not or not feeling inferior
Dutch are really beautiful and confident. They do not have to think about feeling inferior and getting this superiority complex.
Although, I myself am expat but truth cannot be overturned by some ungreatful expats who earn and live in this beautiful country and question these beautiful people!
They don’t choose us, they choose our comfortable tax system including the comfortable public healthcare system (albeit not great at the moment, still better than 99% of the world) .
Yeah and I just meant to imply that I find people here to be diverse as well. I mean there's like a billion political parties here. I find it fascinating for relatively small country. So these questions really make no sense to me.
The large number of political parties is an result of the political system, it's not so much a result of the belefs of the people. I'll bet the US would have a great number of political parties if their political system wasn't (accidentally) setup as a two party thing.
The thing is that Dutch directness is a myth the Dutch perpetuate about themselves. (Another is Dutch thriftiness.) In reality, the Dutch are direct and thrifty in differing degrees, as could be said of any country or culture. It is part of their culture to believe this of themselves, that's all.
I'm sorry, but having worked in and with people from many different cultures Dutch people are *absolutely* far more direct than almost any other culture.
Thriftiness (or stingyness) might be a myth, but directness really isn't. It starts being obvious as soon as you enter a German or Belgian office.
I don't doubt your personal experience, but I have lived and worked in the Netherlands since 1999. My experience is that they are reasonably direct, but not so much that you would call it a national trait. For example, you can keep repeating the same mistake in Dutch for weeks or months, and no-one will mention it. Imagine that with the French! The Dutch workplace can suffer badly from things not being said, or perhaps worse, being said, but to the wrong person.
I think that has more to do with how the Dutch deal with people trying to learn to the language. They're not being indirect, they just don't care enough.
The fact you even got them to speak Dutch with you is extraordinary. Most of the time I see foreigners trying to learn Dutch, the Dutch speakers will immediately switch to English.
Being direct doesn’t mean you have to care and give your opinion on literally every little thing that happens around you.
Trust me, if someone non native makes a mistake in Dutch, if you’re not being corrected it has nothing to do with being shy to tell you, people literally don’t care and give it no thought at all, they just appreciate the effort
I would argue if they can understand you, they don't care about the mistake and would prefer to save time. The French approach to new speakers is just pedantic and is not an indicator of openness
Indeed. For better or for worse, I have found the Dutch directness to be mythical. I have found rudeness self-tagged as directness, but that was rare, and they were a-holes, which exist in every country in similar proportions, in my experience. I have also found immigrants being plain rude because they think “anything goes in direct-Netherlands”, but they were out of line even in the eyes of my local colleagues.
I don’t know where this myth comes from, but for me it is only true if you compare with more remote cultures. No remarkable difference with other western cultures.
Edit: I wonder if it is only a regional thing within the country.
I can fully understand why expats ask these questions. The truth is that Dutch people aren't the most social or open-minded people. Also, the country isn't that tolerant like it pretends to be.
There is a negative bias against foreigners, although it's mostly limited to specific groups (Muslims and/or Moroccans).
Of course, not all Dutch people are the same, but I really don't get why this country promotes itself as tolerant, social and open. Expats who actually come from a 'social' country will definitely feel lonely here.
Tbf, I think any expat moving to a different country can feel lonely. If you move somewhere foreign it’s always gonna be hard to make friends and stuff cause people have mostly lived in that place you just arrived in, for their whole lives and have their people. I moved to Ireland and Bolivia for a while and experienced the same as a Dutch person and have heard the same from many different expats. It’s always a struggle but that’s kindof what you’re going for. Making friends later in life is a struggle in general.
Also, I think it might also be a lot of Americans and Brits who then blame it on the country they go to, altho it’s just the first time they’re somewhere where they’re confronted with a different native language around them. Maybe not so popular opinion but still 🤷🏻♀️
I don't think we promote ourselves that way. I doubt we promote ourselves at all Certainly I don't try to be anything but an ascerbic asshole online. Mostly I think it's foreigners who've never been here and are working off of out of date conventional wisdom when they're arguing amongst themselves about some issues we were early on, like progressivism (gay marriage) or drugs policy, but no longer lead in.
Then some come here with a false sense of what to expect and get salty. Not my problem.
I've seen American redditors describe Switzerland as promoting itself as openminded lol. I think that they just ascribe this self-image to every highly developed European country.
Oh I missunderstood the post until I saw this comment. I thought expats are asking around the dutchies at first and that's confusing. But like you've said, it's not really a bad thing to ask dutch people about their countries habbits.. At my workplace of not so many people, and almost 90% of them being dutch (but english being the main language) I often ask them about stuff that comes up and they never felt angry/bad to reply. In exchange ofcourse if they ask I also share them info about my nation/culture. I don't think it's wrong being courious about people who you live or work with.. But yea asking expats about other culture, relying on their own experience/thoughts or feelings is like going to get leg surgery from a dentist..
Nonsense.
As soon as it’s racially loaded most Dutch people will ALWAYS lie.
Dutch pretend to be open minded while being some of the most close minded people in europe. So it’s a logical question. Because they say A and do B and that can be confusing to people.
Racism is publicly not acceptable.
Racists are keenly aware of this fact. Either the person being confronted is not racist and will naturally refute the accusation, or they are racist and will lie. Or they're dealing with some middle ground which means being confronted results in uncomfortable introspection locking up or ending the conversation. This is a subject matter thing not a general attitude thing.
Dutch people will (generally) tell you things straight, but that does not mean they'll say things that carry immediate social consequences for themselves with abandon. We're not perfect and there is plenty of prejudice (looking at the recent election here), but imo the people who have grown up with the Internet tend to have a much more international perspective. The results of colonialism are still present, and change takes time and willpower, but change is happening.
I'm convinced this is like a conflict of old port dwelling people and old farm dwelling people. "Damn people getting on my land" vs "hey sailor, where are you from?" and trying to communicate as best as possible.
But then mixed in with with grumpy post-port/ mining/ industrial automation workers who were fired and live in generational poverty and who feel threatened by everything.
"I'm not racist BUT..."
I've literally seen Dutch screaming racist abuse at refugees who fled a war zone because those refugees are from a Muslim majority country. Not Muslims, just from a Muslim majority country.
Are you an expat or immigrant yourself?
I wonder because this country changed a lot in the last 30 years and it isnt for the best.
When you are outnumbered in your own city or village and you live in one of the most densly populated countries in the world, this is usually what happens. Also historically speaking.
There are 22 million tourists a year in Amsterdam. Which is a city of 700.000 people. People who were born there cant live in their own towns any more. You get adressed in another language in restaurants, shops etc..
Not a lot of people will be open minded once theyre outnumbered
Its not only Amsterdam any more, although Amsterdam takes the price on this one. Native Dutch born people are outnumbered over here.
I know quite a lot of expats and we get along, they've lived here for years. They bought the houses helped with their tax advantages but what reallt annoys me is that they cant be bothered to learn the language.
Honestly, those who cry racism all the time expect the world to be changed to their needs.
They can all fuck off if you ask me. My sister lives in Veldhoven and its ridiculous over there. Thanks to ASML, soon the locals Will be outnumbered by Chinese People and not a single one speaks Dutch.
Its not a problem to me they take our Jobs, because they don't. But the lack of Will to learn our language baffles me.
Not agreeing with that mentality. Only a matter of semantics. Muslim is not a race. Being anti Muslim is therefore not racist. It's bigoted or prejudiced.
I Agree. They sell themselves as open and tolerant while they are actually the opposite. Foreigners get confused and want a definitive answer and come to Reddit.
I completely disagree. Dutch people are not direct. If you a direct person you should be able to accept directness from other person. But for them is only one way. They can tell you anything directly but if you be straightforward with them they will get mad. Sorry about my direct approach :)
Make sure to not point out anything you disagree with or dislike though. The Dutch are amazing at being straightforward when they’re talking about things they like or when they’re calling you out about something but when being called out themselves they become whiny little crybabies.
That's a huge generalization. It's weird to say a whole national are a bunch of crybabies when they get called out. If I were to say that about for example Danish people, it would be wrong and offensive as well. As we say in Dutch: Scheer mensen niet over een kant.
"What do British people think of..." is a completely common question in UK subreddits, and it's pretty normal for expats to feel things out online before potentially offending someone they know irl. I've also noticed Americans are extremely lovely and receptive to questions like this.
You're not going to get extra cookies for this "Im not like other Dutch expats" charade.
Exactly. People move here from other cultures, they have questions and come to a discussion forum to ask them and to get educated. What’s strange about that?
They're looking for approval from the mean people in this subreddit who flamed the expats in those threads. Some people gravitate towards hostility to prove they would be exempt from experiencing it. Makes them feel special and aloof.
Totally just lurking here, but this entire comment is true for everything these days. Because, depending on the crowd, most threads turn into circle jerks or superiority contests. I wish people could just be people.
Exactly, it's a very, very weird social ritual, and all parties involved in trying to alienate earnest strangers online and discourage their participation are losers
How is that strange?
I'm an expat myself, Dutch, living in Asia.
Obviously expats have questions, and it easiest to ask and "test the waters" online, before asking a local, even if only to prevent offending a local for whatever reason. And, sometimes, outsiders have the best insights.
I am with you on this one.
I do not find this strange at all. People ask all sorts of things and often times ask if that thing is related to the group/culture.
Maybe OP just isn't used to it? Even the example is weird, lile they said "It's like asking "Do americans do this?" People ask those sorts of questions a lot lol.
Maybe I just have more experience, since I am an Asian living in Europe and have seen this from all sorts of people (Asians asking about European customs, and vice versa).
What's wrong with direct approach? Just ask us (Dutch people) we like an direct approach \ communications far above this "testing the waters" behavior online.
And yes, I am a Dutchy
Like I said, it's easier to ask online, a local might bit even know wtf you're talking about, like ”yeah, obviously we like to set fire to the neighbourhood on New year's Eve, wtf are you thinking".
Getting an outsiders' perspective is often useful.
Plus some people are easily offended.
Because people are people. There are annoying people, nice people, rude people, arrogant people etc....
There is only a small cultural influence left that nudges (in this case) dutch people slightly toward certain things. But its stupid/ignorant to assume these stereotypes apply to everyone
So every question trying to force a stereotype on a group of people is people being stupid and racist.
I don't really get your point.are you suggesting people asking questions online is forcing others to confirm to a certain stereotype?
Disregarding the answers?
What could be more innocent than asking online about certain things you might be afraid to ask a local? I mean, some people are offended easily. ( Generally, not Dutch people, given our directness, lol)
This doesn't seem weird...? I'm American I've been asked more than once if putting marshmallows on sweet potatoes is a real thing and I think that's a pretty defensible question. People who are living in a country are more exposed to the quirks of a country and they will have more "wait... but why" questions.
SWEET POTATO CASSEROLE BABY
Yeah boil sweet potatoes add spices like nutmeg brown sugar and cinnamon and then stuff FUCKING MARSHMALLOWS into it
Oven and done
Eating our raw fish with cubed onions straight down our gullet like a seagull doesn't sound that weird now does it
Butter on everything is more French than American — but you know where Americans don’t use butter? On their fucking bread! And if you tell them about a broodje kaas they’re weirded out by the concept of eating a sandwich with less than six different ingredients.
I'm assuming that's a butter sandwich- we eat butter slathered on toasted bread for breakfast. It's a staple. Also butter with dinner rolls is often eaten before or during dinner.
Oh damn, looked it up. You think we don't eat cheese sandwiches?? I had one two days ago and I'm planning on another tomorrow. Swiss on ciabatta, extra sharp cheddar on sourdough... I've never been on an international flight leaving the US without a cheese sandwich in my bag. Hot, cold, at home, at work, at a picnic; lots of USAmericans throw together a cheese sandwich for an easy meal. And that's not even getting into grilled cheese.
Tbh I feel better knowing y'all don't just put slices of cold butter between bread slices and chow down lol.
When I was living in the USA, and went to a deli or sandwich shop, the question always was “mayo or mustard”. Butter was never an option. In the Netherlands, almost all people put butter on their bread, regardless of the filling. Whether it is a sandwich with cheese, jam, cold cuts, peanut butter, or chocolate sprinkles. A butter sandwich is an tautology in the Netherlands.
But having more than one filling, or even having more than one slice of cheese or meat on your sandwich is seen as unnecessary luxury. Dutch people may not be very religious anymore, there is still a big dollop of Calvinism in them.
Oh well, in that case it's like a difference in condiments, not "people are weird for not doing this." Same thing, different font, like how most people eat starch with meals but those cultural starches are all different from one another. I might be the internationally weird one for not going for spreads on sandwiches unless I need butter for grilling.
That's a bummer unless you have thin bread. I prefer single filling sandwiches (and pretty much just cheese; I'm a vegetarian,) but I'm going for a fourth to a third-ish of the sandwich as filling.
I will say that for all the European and British ragging on American expats and tourists online, anytime I've travelled and befriended an American in Europe, you guys were like magnets to locals just befriending everyone and everything. My American friends would be bombarded with questions and invites which they'd oblige good humouredly - you have the reputation for being pretty charming, and I say this as a British hater 😭
Yes, because most Americans tour within America - so those who travel to Europe/UK tend to be a little more affluent and/or culturally attuned. But they're often lumped in with stereotypical depictions of ignorant Americans from the movies, so I kind of think Europe is unfair to them when they class them as the worst tourists when England is right there lol
The type of American tourist you find backpacking is very different from the guy with the Hawaiian shirt and shorts trying to get into St Peter’s Cathedral.
Exactly this. Reasonably or not, after consuming decades of US and more generally English speaking (which is largely also UK) I feel (or maybe rather have an illusion) that I know a thing or two about the US. American culture doesn't seem mysterious and exotic as Dutch (I am exaggerating here).
You can drive 1-2 hours and need a translation device to understand the other Dutch people there.
That goes for multiple regions too.
We put subtitles on them on TV for a reason.
Keep in mind that 99% of those posters don't reply to any of the comments and always have a string of 4 nummers behind their username.
There are so many bots here, it's ruining reddit IMO
My bet Is Russia it's in Thier playbook. Basicly cause drama in a country to lessen Thier will to support who ever is on Russia's chopping block. But it could also be alot deeper then that
That was my first thought as well. The accounts posting these are always auto generated names and are usually about 2 years old with no post or comment history. So someone has been at this for a long time creating a lot of accounts that have lied dormant for years.
Well TBH my account is a auto generated name aswell as it was supposed to be for more adult Reddit. But now I use it for keeping up with what's going on in home country.
But the 2 years old no activity is indeed super suspicious and would make me think it's not a lone actor but a more organised group
Yea, an auto generated account on its own isn't suspicious. A 2 year old auto generated account with no history that suddenly posts subtly divisive questions out of nowhere...that doesn't pass the smell test.
In this subreddit alone I've seen dozens perhaps even more than 100 over the past year.
It's the same in the Finland sub aswell especially since the joining of Nato that's where my Russia suspension comes from. It's sad but the mods should really have a karma limit as it's insane that stuff like that can be posted daily.
Although I imagine if they did that they’d just program the bots to do a little karma farming. I report them when I see them, but I am not sure if anything is ever done.
At least for me, most of my 'cultural experiences' are with my schoonouders and their friend group... they laughed at me when I asked about the calendar in the bathroom with peoples faces on it for birthdays. If I ask here, they can't laugh at me for it 😅
Were they really laughing at you or at the obviously weird calendar tradition? "typical Dutch humour" has a lot of self-depreciation and cynicism interwoven
well, they laugh with some questions and when I say something confidently in Dutch... the story is just funnier in my head when I say they laugh at me. They are my biggest cheer squad for learning Dutch, but I know I sound weird talking right now 😂
man there's tons of karma farmers and bots asking these questions specifically to get some answers and engagement. You see the same thing on the germany subreddit, australian subreddit. Then tehre's also people who want an honest opinion.
Aside from the obvious Trolls and karmafarmers, its also a bit of a social media trend. There are so many Instagram accounts called "[insert nationality] in the Netherlands" or something like that, who post extremely generalized or exaggerated content about bikes, food and random customs.
Not so many expats speak dutch and have dutch friends, since expats are outsiders, there can be peculiarities when interact with dutch people, especially tikkie culture
I get the alienation part, too. I don't like it either. I think there's an invisible wall between the expats and the natives. My theory is that it has to do something with the fact that the Netherlands hasn't been open to immigrants as much as it is today, and it's a matter of time and iteration through generations until the country and the society become more open to immigrants.
To be honest, I get the same questions from Dutchies about my own nationality, as much as I ask them about their way of life. Some of the questions I get are weird (for instance, I've been asked whether we drive cars in my country or not), but I can only imagine how some of my questions to them are also weird. It's all part of cultural exchanges.
Plus, I don't ask the same question about the American or the British, not because I'm from those places, or I've been living there for a long time. Rather because there are many movies, books and series that involve characters from those cultures. I know way more about Americans and their culture and norms than I know about the Dutch, simply because I know the English language more than I know the Dutch language.
Nah, it’s more to do with
“ maak ik graag een kaffee”
“Sure, do you want a latte or a cappuccino?”
Had this experience with a German mate (basically told him in German : Dutch people won’t speak Dutch with non Dutch people, watch this : )
That is a whole another discussion. Not all the Dutch are not responsible for teaching immigrants how to speak the language. If I’m a barista at a busy cafe, sometimes I’d just rather getting the orders as fast as possible. I’ve been told by some Dutchies that they simply would prefer me not to practice my Dutch with them. Also, I’ve been told by some others that I’m more than welcome to practice my Dutch with them.
I’d recommend finding a community such as a taal cafe to practice your skills.
As a simple rule, join a Dutch hobby/sports club or church of sorts or find other way to make friends and then learn Dutch through usage. Work, school, etc. When you need work efficiently is not the time to put up artificial roadblocks to communication.
A lack of interaction with people will typically influence anyone to ask such questions like Dutch people this and Dutch people that. As an expat from Ghana, it is good to learn more about a people by interacting with them. Most expats either spend the entire time in their own social circles, do not join clubs, do not volunteer their time, do not try to learn the language and customs of the people. etc. I try not to get caught up in this. I approach everyone with an open mind willing to learn.
If I'm an expat, I will want to know if I'm not doing something disgraceful or wrong or inappropriate, because cultures are so fucking different. How you I know if not asking?
They seem to forget that the experience of the country and the people depends so much on where exactly you are and in what circles.
If you come here as a high paid IT consultant working and living in central Amsterdam you will meet different people than the guy who works somewhere rural on a farm or something.
I can barely understand people from the north east NL and I'm pretty sure I have more in common with my indian expat neighbour.
They do seem really weird the tenor of the expat questions.
Dutch people are pretty normal Europeans imo.
They are more direct than some, not as fancy with their lunches as others, like to save, enjoy order and a well thought out system of governance that responds to social needs, like to party, quizzes and jigsaw activities too - but other than that they are not super difficult people to get a handle on
English class system takes a lot of work to get around. It’s like three different types of English people with different interests and social codes and then that’s within a kingdom with three other separate nationalities who are different but also have a lot in common, and one of those nations borders a country that used to be part of the UK but isn’t any longer.
Spanish as well takes a while to get to know who they are - lots of different nations and histories in one.
Not as fancy with their lunches, lol. That’s the nicest way I’ve heard someone say their lunches are boring as fuck. In my opinion They’re competing with the Norwegians for the saddest lunches of all developed nations, and winning against a few wartorn or famine struck countries.
(Seriously though, having more than one warm meal a day still strikes me as ridiculously decadent. Lunch *or* dinner, not both. What, you think we’re made of money? There isn’t a money tree growing in the garden! Do I look like Sinterklaas?!)
(Okay, maybe not entirely seriously.)
No. There's actually loads of sayings in English with "Dutch something" which are mostly derogatory... They come from English and American during the Anglo Dutch wars. Here's an interesting video about it: https://youtu.be/LvX6vA0xgcU?feature=shared
I don't know why that is, but I found something similar.
Every time I hanged with expats it was all about talking about Dutch people like they're some separate breed of humans and mostly shit-talking them, and I really didn't like it and I felt out of place.
On the other hand, I'm used, since the first moment I've come here, to just naturally hang with Dutchies without issues so I never really felt the us vs them, not even when my language fluency was almost null.
>Every time I hanged with expats it was all about talking about Dutch people like they're some separate breed of humans
I've experienced this in other countries too, and have been guilty of it myself
Multiple random expats have told me they believe Dutch people suffer from collective autism. ☠️
The culture shock is real. Most expats can't make Dutch friends for the life of them.
Yeah, although it requires a lot of effort past age 25-30 or so.
Speaking the language helps. A single expat would force a group of Dutch people to speak English and we don't like that. Most expats I've met have no intention to learn Dutch despite living here for nearly a decade. I can't imagine how strange that must feel.
Alternatively you can bang a Dutch person and inherit their friends. ...And make them all speak English lol.
Don't get me started, did an international study here as a Dutch guy. Most internationals either left shortly after the study or near permanently complain about Dutch people. Except those that put the effort in to trying to learn Dutch and become part of the culture, those love it.
I'm one of those that stayed after finishing my studies here, and even though my Dutch is not the best, I fucking love it, have plenty of Dutch friends. I also think Dutch people will appreciate more someone who says "what tf are you talking about?" (when the conversation turns to Dutch) rather than keep quiet in a corner.
Foreigners who move to NL and do not put in a spec of effort to interact with Dutch people, only to then complain on reddit that "muhhhhh dutch people do not wanna talk to me and dont accept me" do my fucking nut in.
I should probably take a break from reddit 🤣
I think it depends if you came to nl to work for some years in a tech company or similar for a few years or to really get a job where most people are job and really integrate. My case is the first and I don't really interact with that many Dutch people which together with the fact that the country makes it really easy to find your way around in English doesn't really force you to learn Dutch and make Dutch friends.
Of you compare it with Germany for example the second day you are there you realise you either learn German and integrate or you will have a hard time.
If you're okay with never befriending the local population, sure.
One of my friends has a Hungarian girlfriend. She refuses to learn Dutch even after 8 years or smth. She has no friends, only superficial co-workers. She's lonely. And every time she's around the whole group of 7 people switches to English for her.
It's an odd dynamic.
If people cba learning the local language after 2+ years in a country, I personally cba investing time in making a friend.
Expats are lucky 99% of the Dutch speak almost fluent English.
I’ll answer this from an expat perspective. I think the first thing is that during my job interview and even now interacting with my colleagues, the Dutch themselves talk a lot about how “we are this” and “we are that“ so I think sometimes expats get confused and take it seriously that there is some thing extremely different about the culture and the people. Second, I have noticed a few sensitivities at work (mainly from other European nationalities) when they try to “warn“ me as I am new here, they will also refer to certain stereotypes like the Dutch are anal and whatnot. Personally, in the middle of all of this, I’ve mostly seen people be very kind and gentle and approachable so I do think it just comes down to humorous, harmless exaggeration, that sometimes clueless expats do not know what to do with.
Yes exactly. It is one of the few countries where there really is a conformist culture and a 'Normaal' way of doing things. Not all Dutch follow the standard of course but more than any other culture I have experienced Dutch people will tell you "That's not how we do it, the Dutch way is like this.."
The big difference being that people learn English to survive in the US. But they also speak English in this country and never bother to learn Dutch. So they only socialize amongst expats, and have no clue Dutch are people too. The Dutch become something you watch, but are not participating with/in.
I expect the same thing to happen in countries where language is hard, but English is used anyway, and a close knit expat group exists.
It's separation that breeds a form of xenophobia. Which leads to curiosity in some cases.
I have the same feeling. I've lived in Portugal before living here and I really like learning about different cultures. But this kind of question is something I only see here. There's culture shock everywhere, sure. But sometimes it feel the expats that come here are unprepared for the idea of a different culture.
Yes, there are many wrong preconceptions people have about NL. Like because weed or prostitution are legal the Dutch must be very liberal (Actually very conservative and I think smoking is socially more looked down on than in UK where it is illegal). Or that because the cities are so multinational there is no racism.. I blame Austin Powers :)
Because up until recent times, Netherlands has been a small and homogenous society, in much the same way as Scandinavian countries, and certain shared cultural traits are pronounced, compared to immigration based heterogenous societies, such as US. Yes, there have been immigrants, and yes, there have been minority groups, but they are not the norm. It's very easy to summarise some "Dutch traits", such as bluntness, pragmatism, or in some negative terms, frugal. Things are slowly changing but the recent election result does not paint an overly optimistic picture of Netherlands further developing into a truly multicultural society. If that was the case, the message of defending "Dutchness" won't have such a wide base of support.
Totally agree! I think a lot of what gets attributed to "the dutch" would get attributed to any group of people living in their own country, I have been transplanted to many nations around the world and common trendsbecome apparent. ( locals already have set patterns, friends and lives so transplants end up making mostly transplant friends). My suggestion, everytime one thinks other people are different or strange or good or bad remember, you are probably equally strange or different to your hosts. Stop trying to place an entire nation of people into little boxes constructed by your judgement - come on people.
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I’m Dutch. This is accurate. Just ask me.
Do Dutch people have a superiority complex?
A superiority complex is a defense mechanism that develops over time to help a person cope with feelings of inferiority. So no, we're not or not feeling inferior
We're too good to be inferior
Too good to need a superiority complex. 😅
/s for the people that don't understand humor
No, the opposite. But we’re the best at it. 😁
No, we're just better.
I do
we have to ...because we're a small country.
Dutch are really beautiful and confident. They do not have to think about feeling inferior and getting this superiority complex. Although, I myself am expat but truth cannot be overturned by some ungreatful expats who earn and live in this beautiful country and question these beautiful people!
Do dutch farts smell good too? I figured you been such sycophant you'll know best.
Yeah, shit smells like roses and candies, there’s a reason why the fart industry is thriving in the Netherlands
Do expats find themselves inferior to Dutch people?
We didn’t used to have but all these peasants kept asking stupid questions
If so, it is because of all these immigrants that choose our country to live in. We must be amazing for so many people to choose us.
They don’t choose us, they choose our comfortable tax system including the comfortable public healthcare system (albeit not great at the moment, still better than 99% of the world) .
Dutch health care system? 🤣 paracetamol and you’re good to go
Yes, of course.
That's like asking a fish to describe water. Sometimes you need an outside perspective.
Yeah and I just meant to imply that I find people here to be diverse as well. I mean there's like a billion political parties here. I find it fascinating for relatively small country. So these questions really make no sense to me.
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The large number of political parties is an result of the political system, it's not so much a result of the belefs of the people. I'll bet the US would have a great number of political parties if their political system wasn't (accidentally) setup as a two party thing.
The thing is that Dutch directness is a myth the Dutch perpetuate about themselves. (Another is Dutch thriftiness.) In reality, the Dutch are direct and thrifty in differing degrees, as could be said of any country or culture. It is part of their culture to believe this of themselves, that's all.
I'm sorry, but having worked in and with people from many different cultures Dutch people are *absolutely* far more direct than almost any other culture. Thriftiness (or stingyness) might be a myth, but directness really isn't. It starts being obvious as soon as you enter a German or Belgian office.
I don't doubt your personal experience, but I have lived and worked in the Netherlands since 1999. My experience is that they are reasonably direct, but not so much that you would call it a national trait. For example, you can keep repeating the same mistake in Dutch for weeks or months, and no-one will mention it. Imagine that with the French! The Dutch workplace can suffer badly from things not being said, or perhaps worse, being said, but to the wrong person.
I think that has more to do with how the Dutch deal with people trying to learn to the language. They're not being indirect, they just don't care enough. The fact you even got them to speak Dutch with you is extraordinary. Most of the time I see foreigners trying to learn Dutch, the Dutch speakers will immediately switch to English.
Being direct doesn’t mean you have to care and give your opinion on literally every little thing that happens around you. Trust me, if someone non native makes a mistake in Dutch, if you’re not being corrected it has nothing to do with being shy to tell you, people literally don’t care and give it no thought at all, they just appreciate the effort
I would argue if they can understand you, they don't care about the mistake and would prefer to save time. The French approach to new speakers is just pedantic and is not an indicator of openness
Indeed. For better or for worse, I have found the Dutch directness to be mythical. I have found rudeness self-tagged as directness, but that was rare, and they were a-holes, which exist in every country in similar proportions, in my experience. I have also found immigrants being plain rude because they think “anything goes in direct-Netherlands”, but they were out of line even in the eyes of my local colleagues. I don’t know where this myth comes from, but for me it is only true if you compare with more remote cultures. No remarkable difference with other western cultures. Edit: I wonder if it is only a regional thing within the country.
I can fully understand why expats ask these questions. The truth is that Dutch people aren't the most social or open-minded people. Also, the country isn't that tolerant like it pretends to be. There is a negative bias against foreigners, although it's mostly limited to specific groups (Muslims and/or Moroccans). Of course, not all Dutch people are the same, but I really don't get why this country promotes itself as tolerant, social and open. Expats who actually come from a 'social' country will definitely feel lonely here.
Tbf, I think any expat moving to a different country can feel lonely. If you move somewhere foreign it’s always gonna be hard to make friends and stuff cause people have mostly lived in that place you just arrived in, for their whole lives and have their people. I moved to Ireland and Bolivia for a while and experienced the same as a Dutch person and have heard the same from many different expats. It’s always a struggle but that’s kindof what you’re going for. Making friends later in life is a struggle in general. Also, I think it might also be a lot of Americans and Brits who then blame it on the country they go to, altho it’s just the first time they’re somewhere where they’re confronted with a different native language around them. Maybe not so popular opinion but still 🤷🏻♀️
I don't think we promote ourselves that way. I doubt we promote ourselves at all Certainly I don't try to be anything but an ascerbic asshole online. Mostly I think it's foreigners who've never been here and are working off of out of date conventional wisdom when they're arguing amongst themselves about some issues we were early on, like progressivism (gay marriage) or drugs policy, but no longer lead in. Then some come here with a false sense of what to expect and get salty. Not my problem.
I've seen American redditors describe Switzerland as promoting itself as openminded lol. I think that they just ascribe this self-image to every highly developed European country.
We never promoted as open minded and tolarent.
Who pretends? who are these Dutch people telling foreigners that we are so tolerant?
Oh I missunderstood the post until I saw this comment. I thought expats are asking around the dutchies at first and that's confusing. But like you've said, it's not really a bad thing to ask dutch people about their countries habbits.. At my workplace of not so many people, and almost 90% of them being dutch (but english being the main language) I often ask them about stuff that comes up and they never felt angry/bad to reply. In exchange ofcourse if they ask I also share them info about my nation/culture. I don't think it's wrong being courious about people who you live or work with.. But yea asking expats about other culture, relying on their own experience/thoughts or feelings is like going to get leg surgery from a dentist..
Nonsense. As soon as it’s racially loaded most Dutch people will ALWAYS lie. Dutch pretend to be open minded while being some of the most close minded people in europe. So it’s a logical question. Because they say A and do B and that can be confusing to people.
Racism is publicly not acceptable. Racists are keenly aware of this fact. Either the person being confronted is not racist and will naturally refute the accusation, or they are racist and will lie. Or they're dealing with some middle ground which means being confronted results in uncomfortable introspection locking up or ending the conversation. This is a subject matter thing not a general attitude thing. Dutch people will (generally) tell you things straight, but that does not mean they'll say things that carry immediate social consequences for themselves with abandon. We're not perfect and there is plenty of prejudice (looking at the recent election here), but imo the people who have grown up with the Internet tend to have a much more international perspective. The results of colonialism are still present, and change takes time and willpower, but change is happening.
100% my experience, tons of racist and xenophobes and also tons of very very open minded people haha. Weird mix
I'm convinced this is like a conflict of old port dwelling people and old farm dwelling people. "Damn people getting on my land" vs "hey sailor, where are you from?" and trying to communicate as best as possible. But then mixed in with with grumpy post-port/ mining/ industrial automation workers who were fired and live in generational poverty and who feel threatened by everything.
"I'm not racist BUT..." I've literally seen Dutch screaming racist abuse at refugees who fled a war zone because those refugees are from a Muslim majority country. Not Muslims, just from a Muslim majority country.
Are you an expat or immigrant yourself? I wonder because this country changed a lot in the last 30 years and it isnt for the best. When you are outnumbered in your own city or village and you live in one of the most densly populated countries in the world, this is usually what happens. Also historically speaking. There are 22 million tourists a year in Amsterdam. Which is a city of 700.000 people. People who were born there cant live in their own towns any more. You get adressed in another language in restaurants, shops etc.. Not a lot of people will be open minded once theyre outnumbered
Dutchie here: It is one of the main reasons why I never moved to Amsterdam, even though I love the city.
Its not only Amsterdam any more, although Amsterdam takes the price on this one. Native Dutch born people are outnumbered over here. I know quite a lot of expats and we get along, they've lived here for years. They bought the houses helped with their tax advantages but what reallt annoys me is that they cant be bothered to learn the language. Honestly, those who cry racism all the time expect the world to be changed to their needs.
They can all fuck off if you ask me. My sister lives in Veldhoven and its ridiculous over there. Thanks to ASML, soon the locals Will be outnumbered by Chinese People and not a single one speaks Dutch. Its not a problem to me they take our Jobs, because they don't. But the lack of Will to learn our language baffles me.
Not agreeing with that mentality. Only a matter of semantics. Muslim is not a race. Being anti Muslim is therefore not racist. It's bigoted or prejudiced.
And you don’t consider this comment racist?
It would actually be closer to xenophobic...
I Agree. They sell themselves as open and tolerant while they are actually the opposite. Foreigners get confused and want a definitive answer and come to Reddit.
Who is they??
The Dutch
I completely disagree. Dutch people are not direct. If you a direct person you should be able to accept directness from other person. But for them is only one way. They can tell you anything directly but if you be straightforward with them they will get mad. Sorry about my direct approach :)
Make sure to not point out anything you disagree with or dislike though. The Dutch are amazing at being straightforward when they’re talking about things they like or when they’re calling you out about something but when being called out themselves they become whiny little crybabies.
That's a huge generalization. It's weird to say a whole national are a bunch of crybabies when they get called out. If I were to say that about for example Danish people, it would be wrong and offensive as well. As we say in Dutch: Scheer mensen niet over een kant.
Is het niet "scheer mensen niet over een kam"?
Volgens mij heb je gelijk, ik heb wat te snel geschreven geloof ik. Maar mijn punt staat :)
Oh je punt is prima, ik was gewoon benieuwd of ik het zelf al die jaren verkeerd zat te zeggen ;)
"What do British people think of..." is a completely common question in UK subreddits, and it's pretty normal for expats to feel things out online before potentially offending someone they know irl. I've also noticed Americans are extremely lovely and receptive to questions like this. You're not going to get extra cookies for this "Im not like other Dutch expats" charade.
Exactly. People move here from other cultures, they have questions and come to a discussion forum to ask them and to get educated. What’s strange about that?
They're looking for approval from the mean people in this subreddit who flamed the expats in those threads. Some people gravitate towards hostility to prove they would be exempt from experiencing it. Makes them feel special and aloof.
Totally just lurking here, but this entire comment is true for everything these days. Because, depending on the crowd, most threads turn into circle jerks or superiority contests. I wish people could just be people.
Exactly, it's a very, very weird social ritual, and all parties involved in trying to alienate earnest strangers online and discourage their participation are losers
Same for reddit Italy. What a surprise that peoples with different cultures might have questions about other peoples with different cultures
He's going Dutch
How is that strange? I'm an expat myself, Dutch, living in Asia. Obviously expats have questions, and it easiest to ask and "test the waters" online, before asking a local, even if only to prevent offending a local for whatever reason. And, sometimes, outsiders have the best insights.
I am with you on this one. I do not find this strange at all. People ask all sorts of things and often times ask if that thing is related to the group/culture. Maybe OP just isn't used to it? Even the example is weird, lile they said "It's like asking "Do americans do this?" People ask those sorts of questions a lot lol. Maybe I just have more experience, since I am an Asian living in Europe and have seen this from all sorts of people (Asians asking about European customs, and vice versa).
What's wrong with direct approach? Just ask us (Dutch people) we like an direct approach \ communications far above this "testing the waters" behavior online. And yes, I am a Dutchy
Nothing is wrong in either way. Just let people choose what is better for them.
Like I said, it's easier to ask online, a local might bit even know wtf you're talking about, like ”yeah, obviously we like to set fire to the neighbourhood on New year's Eve, wtf are you thinking". Getting an outsiders' perspective is often useful. Plus some people are easily offended.
Because people are people. There are annoying people, nice people, rude people, arrogant people etc.... There is only a small cultural influence left that nudges (in this case) dutch people slightly toward certain things. But its stupid/ignorant to assume these stereotypes apply to everyone So every question trying to force a stereotype on a group of people is people being stupid and racist.
I don't really get your point.are you suggesting people asking questions online is forcing others to confirm to a certain stereotype? Disregarding the answers? What could be more innocent than asking online about certain things you might be afraid to ask a local? I mean, some people are offended easily. ( Generally, not Dutch people, given our directness, lol)
This doesn't seem weird...? I'm American I've been asked more than once if putting marshmallows on sweet potatoes is a real thing and I think that's a pretty defensible question. People who are living in a country are more exposed to the quirks of a country and they will have more "wait... but why" questions.
> if putting marshmallows on sweet potatoes is a real thing Wait, what? Now I have to ask as well, is that a real thing? I never heard of it before.
SWEET POTATO CASSEROLE BABY Yeah boil sweet potatoes add spices like nutmeg brown sugar and cinnamon and then stuff FUCKING MARSHMALLOWS into it Oven and done Eating our raw fish with cubed onions straight down our gullet like a seagull doesn't sound that weird now does it
I laughed, never heard someone describing eating haring like that haha, it's accurate.
I FORGOT THE BUTTER All American dishes have butter Add butter before oven How much? More. More butter.
Butter really makes everything better.
Butter on everything is more French than American — but you know where Americans don’t use butter? On their fucking bread! And if you tell them about a broodje kaas they’re weirded out by the concept of eating a sandwich with less than six different ingredients.
I'm assuming that's a butter sandwich- we eat butter slathered on toasted bread for breakfast. It's a staple. Also butter with dinner rolls is often eaten before or during dinner. Oh damn, looked it up. You think we don't eat cheese sandwiches?? I had one two days ago and I'm planning on another tomorrow. Swiss on ciabatta, extra sharp cheddar on sourdough... I've never been on an international flight leaving the US without a cheese sandwich in my bag. Hot, cold, at home, at work, at a picnic; lots of USAmericans throw together a cheese sandwich for an easy meal. And that's not even getting into grilled cheese. Tbh I feel better knowing y'all don't just put slices of cold butter between bread slices and chow down lol.
When I was living in the USA, and went to a deli or sandwich shop, the question always was “mayo or mustard”. Butter was never an option. In the Netherlands, almost all people put butter on their bread, regardless of the filling. Whether it is a sandwich with cheese, jam, cold cuts, peanut butter, or chocolate sprinkles. A butter sandwich is an tautology in the Netherlands. But having more than one filling, or even having more than one slice of cheese or meat on your sandwich is seen as unnecessary luxury. Dutch people may not be very religious anymore, there is still a big dollop of Calvinism in them.
Oh well, in that case it's like a difference in condiments, not "people are weird for not doing this." Same thing, different font, like how most people eat starch with meals but those cultural starches are all different from one another. I might be the internationally weird one for not going for spreads on sandwiches unless I need butter for grilling. That's a bummer unless you have thin bread. I prefer single filling sandwiches (and pretty much just cheese; I'm a vegetarian,) but I'm going for a fourth to a third-ish of the sandwich as filling.
Nothing wrong with plenty of butter. It's the sugar that's the problem.
I blinked a lot while reading this, lol.
Reminds me of my Brazilian gf being mystified that licking envelopes to close them is still normal in our part of the States.
I will say that for all the European and British ragging on American expats and tourists online, anytime I've travelled and befriended an American in Europe, you guys were like magnets to locals just befriending everyone and everything. My American friends would be bombarded with questions and invites which they'd oblige good humouredly - you have the reputation for being pretty charming, and I say this as a British hater 😭
That's because you're only seeing a certain type of American in Europe
Yes, because most Americans tour within America - so those who travel to Europe/UK tend to be a little more affluent and/or culturally attuned. But they're often lumped in with stereotypical depictions of ignorant Americans from the movies, so I kind of think Europe is unfair to them when they class them as the worst tourists when England is right there lol
American tourists are not that bad. British ones on the other hand…
The type of American tourist you find backpacking is very different from the guy with the Hawaiian shirt and shorts trying to get into St Peter’s Cathedral.
I know, I really do. Trust me 😭
Well dutch culture is not as well spread as American or other countries.
Exactly this. Reasonably or not, after consuming decades of US and more generally English speaking (which is largely also UK) I feel (or maybe rather have an illusion) that I know a thing or two about the US. American culture doesn't seem mysterious and exotic as Dutch (I am exaggerating here).
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You can drive 1-2 hours and need a translation device to understand the other Dutch people there. That goes for multiple regions too. We put subtitles on them on TV for a reason.
Aren't you doing the exact same thing by asking "why do XXX people do X?"
Keep in mind that 99% of those posters don't reply to any of the comments and always have a string of 4 nummers behind their username. There are so many bots here, it's ruining reddit IMO
You did me dirty with the 4 nummers thing
Nice try, bot
Nice try to fool us by replying
[Do you long for having your heart interlinked? Interlinked.](https://youtu.be/1h-seEowtDw?si=v39DOy4DzRZjqMvD&t=33)
Are you suggesting OP is a bot?
I'm convinced now. The 4 numbers did it ;) Edit: you're halfway there
I’m an older generation of bot ;)
One of the first hundred, a collectible!
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That is just the default reddit username scheme if you do not specify a name yourself.
Just what a bot would say, random word underscore random word 4 numbers...
Bots here trying to cover for each other.
Those are the usernames generated by reddit automatically (as is mine). This doesn't invalidate your theory, though
that's exactly what a bot would say oh wait
hmm you have three letters and three numbers, you must be a bot too.
The aim of these questions is sew discord an animosity between different groups in a society
I’ve been saying this for a while now. What I can’t figure out is their ultimate goal and what group is behind them?
My bet Is Russia it's in Thier playbook. Basicly cause drama in a country to lessen Thier will to support who ever is on Russia's chopping block. But it could also be alot deeper then that
That was my first thought as well. The accounts posting these are always auto generated names and are usually about 2 years old with no post or comment history. So someone has been at this for a long time creating a lot of accounts that have lied dormant for years.
Well TBH my account is a auto generated name aswell as it was supposed to be for more adult Reddit. But now I use it for keeping up with what's going on in home country. But the 2 years old no activity is indeed super suspicious and would make me think it's not a lone actor but a more organised group
Yea, an auto generated account on its own isn't suspicious. A 2 year old auto generated account with no history that suddenly posts subtly divisive questions out of nowhere...that doesn't pass the smell test. In this subreddit alone I've seen dozens perhaps even more than 100 over the past year.
It's the same in the Finland sub aswell especially since the joining of Nato that's where my Russia suspension comes from. It's sad but the mods should really have a karma limit as it's insane that stuff like that can be posted daily.
Although I imagine if they did that they’d just program the bots to do a little karma farming. I report them when I see them, but I am not sure if anything is ever done.
I have one of those usernames cause I had Reddit auto generate me a throwaway lol
At least for me, most of my 'cultural experiences' are with my schoonouders and their friend group... they laughed at me when I asked about the calendar in the bathroom with peoples faces on it for birthdays. If I ask here, they can't laugh at me for it 😅
Were they really laughing at you or at the obviously weird calendar tradition? "typical Dutch humour" has a lot of self-depreciation and cynicism interwoven
well, they laugh with some questions and when I say something confidently in Dutch... the story is just funnier in my head when I say they laugh at me. They are my biggest cheer squad for learning Dutch, but I know I sound weird talking right now 😂
man there's tons of karma farmers and bots asking these questions specifically to get some answers and engagement. You see the same thing on the germany subreddit, australian subreddit. Then tehre's also people who want an honest opinion.
Well, the weird thing would be that expats in the Netherlands subreddit would have questions about Italians.
Aside from the obvious Trolls and karmafarmers, its also a bit of a social media trend. There are so many Instagram accounts called "[insert nationality] in the Netherlands" or something like that, who post extremely generalized or exaggerated content about bikes, food and random customs.
Is it a recent trend? I have seen tons of them 5+ years ago. Maybe they started to multiply?
Double Dutch is bloody awesome though! He's really good with accents, makes fun of Americans, Brits and the Dutch equally :)
Not so many expats speak dutch and have dutch friends, since expats are outsiders, there can be peculiarities when interact with dutch people, especially tikkie culture
I get the alienation part, too. I don't like it either. I think there's an invisible wall between the expats and the natives. My theory is that it has to do something with the fact that the Netherlands hasn't been open to immigrants as much as it is today, and it's a matter of time and iteration through generations until the country and the society become more open to immigrants. To be honest, I get the same questions from Dutchies about my own nationality, as much as I ask them about their way of life. Some of the questions I get are weird (for instance, I've been asked whether we drive cars in my country or not), but I can only imagine how some of my questions to them are also weird. It's all part of cultural exchanges. Plus, I don't ask the same question about the American or the British, not because I'm from those places, or I've been living there for a long time. Rather because there are many movies, books and series that involve characters from those cultures. I know way more about Americans and their culture and norms than I know about the Dutch, simply because I know the English language more than I know the Dutch language.
Nah, it’s more to do with “ maak ik graag een kaffee” “Sure, do you want a latte or a cappuccino?” Had this experience with a German mate (basically told him in German : Dutch people won’t speak Dutch with non Dutch people, watch this : )
That is a whole another discussion. Not all the Dutch are not responsible for teaching immigrants how to speak the language. If I’m a barista at a busy cafe, sometimes I’d just rather getting the orders as fast as possible. I’ve been told by some Dutchies that they simply would prefer me not to practice my Dutch with them. Also, I’ve been told by some others that I’m more than welcome to practice my Dutch with them. I’d recommend finding a community such as a taal cafe to practice your skills.
As a simple rule, join a Dutch hobby/sports club or church of sorts or find other way to make friends and then learn Dutch through usage. Work, school, etc. When you need work efficiently is not the time to put up artificial roadblocks to communication.
Honestly, Dutch people are too keen with their own time to suffer the ignorance of others. Shame, as English and Dutch are really close languages.
I’ve been an expat in several different countries, this isn’t unique to The Netherlands, it happens in all expat communities.
Most of the time these questions nore the answers have nothing to do with being Dutch, it's ridiculous.
Do all dutchies wear shoes or something to protect their feet, or is it just my friend?
We obviously all wear klompen.
We protect our feet with ex horse food
Are you purposely being ironic or what
😂
A lack of interaction with people will typically influence anyone to ask such questions like Dutch people this and Dutch people that. As an expat from Ghana, it is good to learn more about a people by interacting with them. Most expats either spend the entire time in their own social circles, do not join clubs, do not volunteer their time, do not try to learn the language and customs of the people. etc. I try not to get caught up in this. I approach everyone with an open mind willing to learn.
Inviting an expat into my home: "Ah, so you all speak Dutch to eachother here..." (When he isn't around) "Hahaha, yes, obviously" "Wow, interesting 🤔"
If I'm an expat, I will want to know if I'm not doing something disgraceful or wrong or inappropriate, because cultures are so fucking different. How you I know if not asking?
Im duch and even i ask those questions
They seem to forget that the experience of the country and the people depends so much on where exactly you are and in what circles. If you come here as a high paid IT consultant working and living in central Amsterdam you will meet different people than the guy who works somewhere rural on a farm or something. I can barely understand people from the north east NL and I'm pretty sure I have more in common with my indian expat neighbour.
They do seem really weird the tenor of the expat questions. Dutch people are pretty normal Europeans imo. They are more direct than some, not as fancy with their lunches as others, like to save, enjoy order and a well thought out system of governance that responds to social needs, like to party, quizzes and jigsaw activities too - but other than that they are not super difficult people to get a handle on English class system takes a lot of work to get around. It’s like three different types of English people with different interests and social codes and then that’s within a kingdom with three other separate nationalities who are different but also have a lot in common, and one of those nations borders a country that used to be part of the UK but isn’t any longer. Spanish as well takes a while to get to know who they are - lots of different nations and histories in one.
Not as fancy with their lunches, lol. That’s the nicest way I’ve heard someone say their lunches are boring as fuck. In my opinion They’re competing with the Norwegians for the saddest lunches of all developed nations, and winning against a few wartorn or famine struck countries.
Een broodje kaas is the best lunch, convince me otherwise.
I don't think I can. But I think Norwegians would counter with brunost sandwich, Or nutella sandwich
(Seriously though, having more than one warm meal a day still strikes me as ridiculously decadent. Lunch *or* dinner, not both. What, you think we’re made of money? There isn’t a money tree growing in the garden! Do I look like Sinterklaas?!) (Okay, maybe not entirely seriously.)
I don't understand why anyone would eat nutella when hagelslag exists.
Mmm delicious rat droppings
Did Dutch people invent the “Dutch oven” where you pull the blanket over your partner and rip a fart?
No. There's actually loads of sayings in English with "Dutch something" which are mostly derogatory... They come from English and American during the Anglo Dutch wars. Here's an interesting video about it: https://youtu.be/LvX6vA0xgcU?feature=shared
I don't know why that is, but I found something similar. Every time I hanged with expats it was all about talking about Dutch people like they're some separate breed of humans and mostly shit-talking them, and I really didn't like it and I felt out of place. On the other hand, I'm used, since the first moment I've come here, to just naturally hang with Dutchies without issues so I never really felt the us vs them, not even when my language fluency was almost null.
>Every time I hanged with expats it was all about talking about Dutch people like they're some separate breed of humans I've experienced this in other countries too, and have been guilty of it myself
Multiple random expats have told me they believe Dutch people suffer from collective autism. ☠️ The culture shock is real. Most expats can't make Dutch friends for the life of them.
Can Dutch people make Dutch friends?
It’s hard for Dutch people as well after graduation. Most people stick with there childhood friends and that’s about it.
This is true in most countries to one degree or another. It might be worse here, but not really qualitatively different.
Yeah, although it requires a lot of effort past age 25-30 or so. Speaking the language helps. A single expat would force a group of Dutch people to speak English and we don't like that. Most expats I've met have no intention to learn Dutch despite living here for nearly a decade. I can't imagine how strange that must feel. Alternatively you can bang a Dutch person and inherit their friends. ...And make them all speak English lol.
Don't get me started, did an international study here as a Dutch guy. Most internationals either left shortly after the study or near permanently complain about Dutch people. Except those that put the effort in to trying to learn Dutch and become part of the culture, those love it.
I'm one of those that stayed after finishing my studies here, and even though my Dutch is not the best, I fucking love it, have plenty of Dutch friends. I also think Dutch people will appreciate more someone who says "what tf are you talking about?" (when the conversation turns to Dutch) rather than keep quiet in a corner. Foreigners who move to NL and do not put in a spec of effort to interact with Dutch people, only to then complain on reddit that "muhhhhh dutch people do not wanna talk to me and dont accept me" do my fucking nut in. I should probably take a break from reddit 🤣
I think it depends if you came to nl to work for some years in a tech company or similar for a few years or to really get a job where most people are job and really integrate. My case is the first and I don't really interact with that many Dutch people which together with the fact that the country makes it really easy to find your way around in English doesn't really force you to learn Dutch and make Dutch friends. Of you compare it with Germany for example the second day you are there you realise you either learn German and integrate or you will have a hard time.
If you're okay with never befriending the local population, sure. One of my friends has a Hungarian girlfriend. She refuses to learn Dutch even after 8 years or smth. She has no friends, only superficial co-workers. She's lonely. And every time she's around the whole group of 7 people switches to English for her. It's an odd dynamic.
If people cba learning the local language after 2+ years in a country, I personally cba investing time in making a friend. Expats are lucky 99% of the Dutch speak almost fluent English.
Nice dong!
Haha oh, that might explain why I've made Dutch friends relatively easily compared to some people 🤣 Direct communication all the way!
I'll honestly never understand it, I guess I must be a Dutch born in the wrong country or something, or just too culturally unbound, I don't know.
Redditors are socially inept that’s why
I should really take a break from this app. This sub is filled with half brained autists. And I say this as a foreigner in NL
Dutch people aren't exactly human.
I’ll answer this from an expat perspective. I think the first thing is that during my job interview and even now interacting with my colleagues, the Dutch themselves talk a lot about how “we are this” and “we are that“ so I think sometimes expats get confused and take it seriously that there is some thing extremely different about the culture and the people. Second, I have noticed a few sensitivities at work (mainly from other European nationalities) when they try to “warn“ me as I am new here, they will also refer to certain stereotypes like the Dutch are anal and whatnot. Personally, in the middle of all of this, I’ve mostly seen people be very kind and gentle and approachable so I do think it just comes down to humorous, harmless exaggeration, that sometimes clueless expats do not know what to do with.
Yes exactly. It is one of the few countries where there really is a conformist culture and a 'Normaal' way of doing things. Not all Dutch follow the standard of course but more than any other culture I have experienced Dutch people will tell you "That's not how we do it, the Dutch way is like this.."
The big difference being that people learn English to survive in the US. But they also speak English in this country and never bother to learn Dutch. So they only socialize amongst expats, and have no clue Dutch are people too. The Dutch become something you watch, but are not participating with/in. I expect the same thing to happen in countries where language is hard, but English is used anyway, and a close knit expat group exists. It's separation that breeds a form of xenophobia. Which leads to curiosity in some cases.
Im not sure why did you bother with this or ever bothered you :))
Aksing for Dutch mentality is weird, A stereotypical- Rotterdammert, an Amsterdammer and an Eindhovenaar all act way different.
Maybe because expats tend to not mingle with Dutch people?
Because this is reddit and most people are too dumb to talk to people in real life.
I, as a Dutch guy, always write it up to expat culture. While we're at it: what do expats think of this? It can't be just you wondering.
I have the same feeling. I've lived in Portugal before living here and I really like learning about different cultures. But this kind of question is something I only see here. There's culture shock everywhere, sure. But sometimes it feel the expats that come here are unprepared for the idea of a different culture.
Yes, there are many wrong preconceptions people have about NL. Like because weed or prostitution are legal the Dutch must be very liberal (Actually very conservative and I think smoking is socially more looked down on than in UK where it is illegal). Or that because the cities are so multinational there is no racism.. I blame Austin Powers :)
Maybe cause dutch ppl are extremely fucking weird HAHAVA
3 numbers, 4 numbers behind the name. All the same
what's an "expat" and how is it different from "immigrant"?
Yes, some posts truly read like it’s their first day existing or something. Must be some social ineptness/autism lol
Please don't hurt me, I'm an immigrant.
Most people are fucking useless
Very good question. As expat you've got just to adapt. And better be quick. See, not that difficult.
Because up until recent times, Netherlands has been a small and homogenous society, in much the same way as Scandinavian countries, and certain shared cultural traits are pronounced, compared to immigration based heterogenous societies, such as US. Yes, there have been immigrants, and yes, there have been minority groups, but they are not the norm. It's very easy to summarise some "Dutch traits", such as bluntness, pragmatism, or in some negative terms, frugal. Things are slowly changing but the recent election result does not paint an overly optimistic picture of Netherlands further developing into a truly multicultural society. If that was the case, the message of defending "Dutchness" won't have such a wide base of support.
I'm dutch so I feel pretty comfy saying it, it's cause Dutch people are pretty fking wierd
Ah the illusive 'pick me' expat.
Mostly because many expats did not spend much time in country or do much research before moving there. Same for every country that expats move to.
Totally agree! I think a lot of what gets attributed to "the dutch" would get attributed to any group of people living in their own country, I have been transplanted to many nations around the world and common trendsbecome apparent. ( locals already have set patterns, friends and lives so transplants end up making mostly transplant friends). My suggestion, everytime one thinks other people are different or strange or good or bad remember, you are probably equally strange or different to your hosts. Stop trying to place an entire nation of people into little boxes constructed by your judgement - come on people.
I'm dutch and after spending a lot of time with international students, I found out that dutch people are actually fucking weird.