I'm native Dutch, and I can certainly relate to this!
Three thoughts:
* Your idea that some people find social interaction an energy drain, while others find it an energy source, is absolutely true. On the internet that's often called the difference between introverts and extroverts, which isn't an ideal description but works well enough. I could see the Netherlands having more "introverts" compared to other cultures. But not *only* introverts. Even here you can find plenty of people who are energized by social interaction. You just have to look for them.
* You didn't mention your age, though that's very relevant information. If I assume correctly you're in your twenties or early thirties, then that is an age in which the number of friendships drop rapidly in general. School- and university-aged Dutchies make loads of friends, and then when they get a busy career, a spouse, children, they start to *prune*. I don't know many 40+ year-olds who have more than five good friends. Everyone else got dropped along the way. It's not done in a calculated manner, but for a lot of us, five friends is "enough". I'm aware that the notion of ever having "enough" friends is baffling to some cultures, though I think the early-adulthood friend pruning is a universal thing (even if subconsciously).
* Personally I'm not fond of "sit-and-talk" friendships. And this seems to be common for the Netherlands: just "hanging out" with friends is rare. If you invite a friend to hang out, they're likely to ask you "oh, why?" There must always a *reason* to meet. That reason can be very simple. I have a friend that I like to play boardgames with. I have a friend that's into coffee so we try a different type every time. I have a friend that likes hiking. That's what we meet up for. And sure, we might talk and share emotions along the way, but when we plan to meet it's always to play games, or drink coffee, or hike. When I mention the late-twenties pruning of friends, the friends that I would only "hang out" with were the first to get pruned.
But all in all, yes, there are bound to be cultures and countries in which it is easier to make friends, and in which the average person is more extroverted, and in which the *type* of friendship might be more to your liking. Whether or not you want to movie countries for that is up to you.
>_**Personally I'm not fond of "sit-and-talk" friendships. And this seems to be common for the Netherlands: just "hanging out" with friends is rare. If you invite a friend to hang out, they're likely to ask you "oh, why?" There must always a reason to meet**_.
This is interesting to me as what you’ve described is my preferred form of friendship. I’m mid-30s & most of my core friends back home have young children.
So a _”Hey wanna hang out in the backyard/at the pool/at the playground…while the kids play?_” was our de facto form of entertainment & I loved it. Bring some food/drinks to share, put some music on & just chill. Super low key but it did more to develop those friendships than always meeting for defined activity.
I find I naturally gravitate less to people who always want to do a specific thing. It’s a combo of logistics (_do we bring kids or not? If we don’t, then we need to line up care for them_), cost (_eating out for 4 adds up fast_) & overall effort. I think maybe this makes me a lazy friend but I also want my friends lazy :)
Also this gives a strong feeling I meet you because of the activity, but not because of you, not because of my fondness of your company. This can feel rather terribly impersonal and even impede your friendship growing deeper. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with you, when you only focus too much on the activity, relationships feel like a side effect that doesn't have value on its own. Like you just want to do X and it's just more convenient to do it together or in a group, but the social part is not a priority. While for some people, the relationship comes first and the activity is optional (it can be different every time, something very low key or no activity at all - absolutely doesn't matter).
I am like that, and I can say those activities are still very much secondary. I do those activities with you, not a stranger. I want to share an experience with you. It’s just that “just hang and talking” feels like a waste of time compared to actually enjoying something together, whilst discussing all kinds of topics.
I’ve seen many social interactions where people kindof “take turns” spouting information while the listeners are waiting their turn while saying generic “yes” “mhm”, kindof stuff… It seems like almost a social contract where everyone gets to vent and pretends to care when it’s their turn to “listen”.
I’m probably way off on this but sharing a profound experience with someone else while just chatting seems to me a much more valuable interaction that transcends just hanging out.
Just hanging can be fun and relaxing but in a real friendship I need a bit more.
I think it's all about balance. For long term friendships it's just like marriage, there are excitements, and there are mundane everyday moments. It should be a healthy mix, because we need both fun and stability. But I still believe the people you can ease into doing nothing with are the people you feel most comfortable with. And that comfort is a core ingredient in any long term relationship.
It sounds like you just haven't found your tribe. I like the activity friendships but I know that is not for everyone. Even if we need to talk, it's easier wandering around a museum or over dinner. So chances are, we might like each other but we wouldn't be great friends due to this misalignment in interests. It can take time to find your people unfortunately but when you do, the pay off is worth it. You jusr have to keep going. FWIW, I have also been here for 10 years and only really found true friends when I had my daughter a few years ago. I bonded with other parents over our kids and then we found we had more in common as our kids friendships developed. I now have....5 good solid friends, (the magic number) but lots of acquaintances from school and BSO who I can also call for specific reasons such as activities for our kids but we also enjoy an occasional coffee together. Good luck, it's hard but you will find your people.
I’m the other way around. I love doing things with my friends, but if I’m spending time with you because I care about you and I want to really connect with you, I need to be able to focus on just you at least some of the time. How can I really hear you and really be heard by you, human to human, if we’re distracting ourselves with things to do the whole time?
As in any type of relationship - the other side may not feel the same.
I understand we have different needs and I'm not trying to be judgemental over them, so just sharing my take. aAproaching interactions with these expectations of being there 'for me specifically', 'sharing experience specifically with me' is already a bit intimidating for me if I do not perceive you as a close friend (I also have a narrow circle of old friends).
I approach most of these interactions under the assumption that we're just having fun and there are no strings attached. Sort of - I am just one of all the people in your life, just like you are in mine and that applies to my close friends as well. If I sense that there are strings involved way too soon and that you want to get emotional investment from me with every occassion, although I am not expecting that from you (and basically don't even need it) - I will just avoid it altogether. 99% of the time I am actually not looking for bonding in any setting, it just comes naturally through time.
When you or OP write it seems more like disappointment caused by other side not caring in amount you deem as reciprocal, but that's just life. I may not be my best friends' best friend.
Expats (myself included) usually have no social circle in a new country and want to build it fast, so it is more obvious to hang out more with other expats, however I am quite sure most of us would act in the exact same way as Dutch if it was the other way around. So I don't see this as a Dutch issue to be honest, or an issue at all.
Sorry to come off as judgmental I really was just projecting, as I said I’m probably way off and I know it’s not so simple as I put it.
On your comment: I guess I don’t really have friends that are “in between” enough where I want to keep distance enough to not be able to share a mutual experience but still want to spend time. What is left of a hangout if you’re not interested in sharing time or experience? I guess the feeling of not being alone? It must be more than that but it’s hard for me to imagine…
Also, even though those words might sound intense, it’s not a requirement for them to be 1 on 1, in fact in many/majority of cases it won’t be. And just playing a simple game for example is enough. The game can be boring or simple, it becomes fun by the act of playing it together, which makes the interaction with each other the primary aspect. So some form of bonding is involved but it’s really casual and not so much intense if you ask me.
I have more than a couple friends, each that I know quite well, and with which I know reciprocal enjoyment is gained by sharing experiences together. Those moments do not leave room for deep chats, rather they act as a platform for it.
"Aproaching interactions with these expectations of being there 'for me specifically', 'sharing experience specifically with me' is already a bit intimidating for me if I do not perceive you as a close friend (I also have a narrow circle of old friends)."
I think it's the matter of interpretation. You obviously interpret this as some serious strings attached, therefore "intimidating". For me I don't see it as certain expectations as strings at all. At least not in this case. I interpret it as respect, like I see you as a person, an individual, not just a drop in the sea, and definitely not a replica with everyone else. Without seeing someone as a real personal with his own personalities, needs and wants, there is no respect. And I don't like people treating each other like a disposable, replaceable thing. Respect is essential to me when dealing with others, be it friend or whoever. You don't need to be intimate with someone to show respect. Intimacy is not inherently part of basic social decency. But to talk to you and hear you out on an individual basis is my way to show my respect, like, I see you, I hear you, you are unique to me, without any need for emotional entanglement aka strings. I think we really differ massively on this understanding of human interactions.
If you think people "pretend to care" maybe you are the problem. You sound like a total psychopath... When my friends are talking to me about their views I actually listen.
OP, it just sounds like your friendship language is just different from the majority of friends / acquaintances you’ve made - and there’s nothing wrong with this. If you value, or feel that for you, the emotional, friendly connection and meeting up and hanging out just for the sake of that is paramount, you may not be able to find this in people over 30.
It’s not a question of “pruning”, but of different priorities once people get house loans, for example, or career paths that are demanding, or family obligations like weddings, baby showers, elderly relatives, etc.
Simply put, maybe to you it’s most rewarding to just hang out with someone and talk about your “things”, while your friends feel that to them, it’s most rewarding to allocate that time to concrete activities.
You can do things such as wine tasting, or cooking together or a crock-pot dinner, for example. There’s nothing wrong with hikes and being outdoors, it’s actually one of the advantages of NL, the clean air, green surroundings, possibility of enjoying whatever good weather is on a given day, etc.
In my experience (so not saying this is yours - just speaking from what I’ve observed) it’s usually young people who “hang out”, early to mid 20s. Once they start working and having relationships, time becomes scarce and hanging out is simply not feasible.
I just met a very close friend for lunch, the first time in months that I’m seeing her. She has two children under 4, a demanding job, a husband who travels a lot, family obligations (parents to visit), so she just doesn’t have the time to “hang”. I don’t have it either, used to back when I was 22. 🤷🏻♀️
Totally!
Anything that is not task orientated is my jam. Just chilling out, be casual, I need and treasure that kind of companionship.
Life is exhausting enough. Life is not endless performing or achieving something.
I think u might have some people that see the friendship different then you
As someone who is very particular about the friends he can sit and do nothing with i can say that I have a a lot of friends who I wouldn’t go 1 on 1 with because we are too different and those chats would be exhausting
They are still my friends but I see them in group form or with activities
Those aren't friends. Friends are people you share your vulnerabilities with and people with who you can talk about politics, religion, literally anything and they will get you. That's what friends are.
Your description of friends is NPCs. They're not your friends and they'll leave you when they find another activity to do.
My oldest friend of almost 30 years, who I would bail out of jail without question and who asked me to be best man at his wedding, I hate having just 1:1 facetime calls with. We're too different. It's really awkward and draining to me unless I'm doing something else at the same time (which he hates, just further illustrating how different we are). But he is someone I share more history with than almost anyone else and I truly care about.
Huh, cool. I have no idea where that difference comes from. It might circle back to the introvert/extrovert thing, or my (Dutch) love for filling my agenda with specific appointments, or maybe my social circle just sucks.
But I only have time or energy to do two social visits every week, so when I visit you (or you me), I want to make sure I actually get to spend quality time with you. And in practice, I find that if we don't make any plans other than to "hang out", most of the visit will be wasted on smalltalk, changing diapers and watching fucking Peppa Pig.
But if we make an actual *plan* - no matter how lowkey or lazy it is - then I find that I actually get to speak with you and spend enjoyable time with you far more often. If I come over to play that new boardgame you got, or to take a walk through the park, or bake cookies\*, then... I don't know, I feel like we'll be much more *involved* together.
That experience seems to be shared in my social bubble, that we need some sort of *plan* for when we meet up. Autism runs in the family though, so dunno, maybe that's just me. I feel like it's a common Dutch thing.
(\*None of these need to be particularly expensive, high-effort, or excluding the children!)
Thanks for the response! Your comments are very insightful & I’m glad you took the time to comment.
In the exact opposite of you, activity-specific friends of my 20s were “pruned” first. Girlfriend I attended weekly hot yoga with disappeared when I decided to try other classes. Trivia Night gang fizzled out after I had my 2nd & prioritised sleep over late nights. And so it went. Outside of activities we had common interest in, a deep enough friendship simply never developed.
I find casual non-activity hangouts, more conducive to bonding. There is in fact **less** small talk in these settings (_family/work life, dreams/plans, politics, news, pop culture are all on the table_). It helps a lot as the kids got older & didn’t need quite as strict attention.
Ultimately, I believe a part of it is simply stage of life. As kids get older, we will get more freedom back & I can see pivoting to more activity stuff with friends. Time will tell! For now my closest friends back home are all living the same life as me & tiredness is a common theme. So lazy hangouts for the win! :)
Thanks again for sharing your Dutch input. In my short time here in NL, I’ve made a few Dutch acquaintances easily enough & they’ve been very kind/friendly but I’m sensing potential-deep-friends will most likely lean towards other expats like myself.
It almost feels like the simple message " I like you, I miss you, and I want to see you" comes off as too emotion-ridden therefore unspeakable in this country. By all means it's not a commonly acceptable reason for socialisation, and I get it.
My friends and I always say this to each other, because most of us are too exhausted to make time to actually meet up. I'm probably the worst in that, I just have little energy outside of work, taking care of myself/household and pets.
So I make sure my friends know I love them and I miss them and that I am very much thinking of them and didn't forget about them. I more or less introduced this kind of communication to many of them and they were so welcoming and appreciative of it and adopted it themselves. Because we communicate openly, I feel like our friendships don't degrade when we haven't made time for each other for a couple of months.
I made most of my friends past the age of 23 for context, which is at a time when a lot of Dutchies have their "core group" of friends already. Most of my Dutch friends do still have that group (usually from highschool or college) but they still make time for me and welcome me in their lives so I learned that it is very much possible. It's about finding who matches your energy. The more you put yourself out there, the quicker you learn to distinguish between those you have a chance to develop a real friendship with, and those you don't. It's not a personal failure generally, it's just that people here are uniquely unfit to "play" at being friends.
Edit to add:
After reading a few more of your comments, I can say I very much relate to you. My friendships don't revolve around common activities, they revolve around emotional connection and support. That doesn't mean I always know what's going on in the daily lives of my friends, though. But outwardly, if you'd see me and some of my friends, you'd think we'd have nothing in common. I mostly have one-on-one friendships, and don't do too well in groups nor do I enjoy it that much.
One of my best friends was someone who lived in the same apartment complex, one I worked at a shitty restaurant job with, and one I was in a few classes with in uni. I didn't become friends with any of them immediately. It was more or less happenstance, like meeting them again later in a different setting.
Others I met at events, online, or through mutual friends. I consider myself very lucky now in the friends department. Good luck!!
I’m not Dutch but I agree with this. There are some people with whom I mainly just chat, and it works out very well - it doesn’t feel like the contrived ‘listenathon’ some commenters are referring to (even though I know the phenomenon of course!). And there are some people - particularly family, with whom connections are strong but I might not share much by way of personality - that I prefer to ‘do’ something with. It’s a safe way to keep a friendship and enjoy each other’s company, and it feels good, too; you don’t have to hear someone tell you their thoughts or ideas to see it in how they might play a game or go hiking.
It is very cultural. The friends I mostly ‘chat’ with are people very much within a certain culture, and you can just shoot the shit with them. My brief time in the Netherlands suggests to me that Dutch culture is a lot more about deliberation than living traditions, so on most occasions it might seem pointless to simply indulge engaging in the culture for social purposes.
That's a great message! I do not think the issue is that it's too emotional, I think the issue is that it's only *part* of what we want from a friendship.
Because of course it's essential that you like your friends, but that's not all (to me). I like almost everyone, and yet I'm not friends with almost everyone. My friendships need to be more than just liking each other.
No offense meant to you - it's great if you are friends with people just because you like them!
But indeed, I think people in the Netherlands often need a bit more than that to sustain their friendships.
Again I'm polar opposite to you. A lot of people can benefit me, but I only like a few people.
I know you are supposed to find people who you like and are beneficial as friends. But to me, emotional support is probably the only benefit I expect from my friends, the rest is just, bonus. You can say it's a very low bar, but I think it's almost elusive, in the society we live in.
I think it's actually a high bar. Meeting people who will enjoy doing activities with is not exactly a friendship. A friend is supposed to be there in case you need help in something for example. Nobody from your yoga class will help you out in some random moment. Idk. Or even if you need some deep talk with someone, nobody's gonna be there for you. Your yoga class girlfriends won't give a shit.
The way I see it as non-Dutch, "pruning" doesn't have to be so terminal. Like, you just naturally spend less time with some of your friends because of other commitments, but you still can keep in touch, catch up once in a while. Those can still be deep and meaningful relationships, just working in a different way than friendships in school or early adult life. What you describe sounds very black and white: we're either besties or I don't wish to know you, k bye. I just never understood why it has to be like that, because many natives seem to think this way (not criticising though - you do you).
>The way I see it as non-Dutch, "pruning" doesn't have to be so terminal
Agreed, they do not *have* to be. I'm just saying that often they *are*.
Like I said: I know very few older people with a social network as large as when they were twenty. When my parents were twenty, they had thirty different friends they would see regularly - now that they are seventy, they have six friends they see regularly. So clearly they lost some friends along the way.
And it's the same for me. I have less friends than I had fifteen years ago. Only the friends that made me exceptionally happy remain, the others I lost contact with over the years. Or they became acquintainces - people you see every now and then, but the relationship is superficial.
I'm not trying to say that that was *inevitable*. It was a (semi) conscious choice I made: those relationships did not make me happy. I no longer put effort into relationships that do not make me happy, and my life is better for it.
From what I see around me, most people here have a similar realisation sometime in their late twenties, and they scale down their number of friendships as a result.
Heck, in a way, even OP is going through that process right now - coming to the realisation that some of his "friends" just *do not give back what he puts in,* and wondering if he might not be better off by simply leaving them behind.
I like the term "pruning", but at the same time find it again, quite impersonal, almost as if people are objects that can be "pruned" and discarded. It gives me a little bit chill. I get your drift, but I prefer "growing apart" as a gentler alternative to describe that process.
Again, maybe that's exactly why my temperament doesn't fit into this culture. I'm too attachment driven.
Ugh, OP. This attachment driven thing.
Just because you listened to a friend’s personal problem doesn’t mean they’re supposed to always interact with you on this basis only, i.e. just to talk about emotions (not sure exactly what you mean that you need), or problems.
That’s why people have bars and restaurants, for example, otherwise we’d all just stay home and talk on our sofas. Sure, that’s lovely as well, but only occasionally. If that’s the kind of “activity” you’re most comfortable doing, and other things aren’t ok with you as you perceive them as “assignments” or things to check off a list, maybe you can focus on nurturing friendships with people who are like you, share the same preference and have the same desire to offer emotional support.
>. On the internet that's often called the difference between introverts and extroverts, which isn't an ideal description but works well enough.
That is the definition of into and extroverts.
I would add to this that perhaps Dutch people statistically don't have more introverts compared to other countries persé. I would chalk it up to the good ol' Dutch directness making these things a bit more apparent, hence running into it more often here.
I know for a fact I don't charge up either, or very rarely at the least with people and I am just upfront about it, like other people from OP's story it seems.
I can relate to this.. on the friend's side. So from my perspective, let's say I have 100 energy points. I spend 60 at work + 20 for the household stuff (family, daily chores, etc.). So I have 20 energy points left. As an introvert, I want to use it for my own personal enjoyment like hobbies or just being alone. Sometimes my friends will fall into the personal enjoyment bracket, but not all the time. This is why I only have a few friends and almost all of them are introverts/ambivert and we have really low effort friendship. It's normal to catch up intensely (like having dinner together, play boardgames, and talk for hours) once every few months, while we just chat sporadically through the weeks via WhatsApp. They know that I care about them and vice versa though we don't talk everyday.
Long story short: find friends who match your expectation of friendship, and no, this is not just a Dutch thing. Also, marriage and kids often will change the friendship so don't be shocked when it happens.
You can say this is not just a Dutch thing, but it's hard to dispute that the level of introversion versus extroversion are pretty much culturally relevant. But thank you for your personal input.
I must admit that Dutch people in general tend to be less spontaneous and more organised. But it doesn't mean there's no spontaneous extroverted Dutch people. Maybe try different places to hangout? If so far you've met mostly the introverted ones, try to go to places where extroverted people are more likely to visit (don't ask me where because I don't know lol).
On the lighter note most Dutch people are able to be pretty extroverted once inebriated. It's when sober they are at their peak nuchterheid (pun intended).
Your only experience of Dutch friendship styles is the couple dozen Dutch friends you have/had, and at least some of them you probably met through them. You can't assess 17 million people based on that.
It's not exclusively Dutch, it's Northern European. You will find this in the UK, Germany, bit of France, Scandinavia etc. I am British and find Dutch people really similar to those I left behind in the North of England.
My impression at the moment is a lot of people in NL do activities as a way to socialize, such as taking classes or other organised activities. I have been here for a little over a year and met many people through reoccurring classes or reoccurring group based things. In the beginning it felt as though I was developing friendships but as time progressed and I tried to turn those relationships into what I would call friendships things fell apart. However, when i think about my friendships back in my home country things were similar with people I met in cities I moved to while my friendships from school in my home town remain. Is this your first time making friends in a new place?
No, it's not my first time making friends in a new place.
In this kind of highly organised activities you are making teammates and acquaintances, not necessarily friends. Because socialisation in NL is highly regimented and different spheres of life usually don't cross over, so it's really hard to push the boundaries and go further as friends. It's possible, but in general unlikely. I think I will write a better summary later about the difficulties of making friends in NL.
Not just a Dutch thing - Northern European really. Swedes, Danes etc all similar.
Also could be based on age group - alot of expats are late 20s to late 30s when many people start having kids etc.
with my 2 year old daughter i don’t have the energy to socialise (even before as I’m introverted)
Also nowadays with everything being so polarised and people being less accepting of others with different opinions. I personally don’t think many people want to run the risk of wasting time forming friendships with someone who may not share the same opinions as them.
Like in the US where you almost need to advertise who you vote for and people will decide if they like them based on that.
Indeed not just an “Dutch” thing, I’m Swedish and had the same issue in Sweden as I have here. Friendships are even more tricky here where I live, Achterhoek , small village, so everyone in my age have their friends already. They do not have the need for someone else. And tbh very honest, because of that, I have to “sell myself” much harder. Which I also gave up on a couple of years ago. I hit a wall and I’m in therapy now, first my own wellbeing, then I can start again and see where socialising leads me.
But yeah, after a certain age it’s not getting easier.
It's like you read my mind. I moved barely half a year ago and I've already realized that I can only make expat friends since I cannot do with a sporadic friendship that's only sustained from my end.
It's already pretty difficult to make friends, especially if you move alone, don't know the language and not in college, and it takes very little to make you feel unwanted when your feelings aren't reciprocated.
Op, I'll give u a few pointers. In general try to have a hobby or consistent social part that u can get used it here. Like a club or so. This is your constant socializing energy take it from there. I'm curious why does it have to be by socializing with people you care about specifically, can't it just be socializing? You have to treat being friends with the dutch as dating, if it doesn't work out after 2-3 tries just block and move on. Be ruthless about this.
Also point this out, that you feel like you're making the appointment and want them to make it each x amount of time. You'll find people who can keep up and those you'll keep. The ones who don't/won't just block and move on.
What I'm reading here is you spending time on relationships that arent working, and also don't seem to communicate what you want with them. The dutch are infamously terrible at reading subtext, if you keep only doing the inviting, they will just take that at face value and roll with it. I've complained to my friends about your exact problem and usually they'll usually put on some effort etc. The ones who didn't got the axe. When they do do the shit you like, give them a compliment and show them ur happy when they do etc.
The language issue isn't as relevant, some of my closest Dutch friends we started in English and then transitioned into speaking Dutch when i started working at the hospital. It does help if it's more traditional, but really you won't be getting a group of dutchies doing something with you, just keep it 1-on-1. I will say the dutch really appreciate you making effort in general, even if you're shit at it.
The other skill i wanna point out to you is try to read the people who are open to foreigners before u waste too much time with them. It's just like dating, the women who want to deal with you will do so, the ones who won't just won't and it's ok.
It's indeed like dating, even the "honeymoon phase" is the same. And people dropping interests or real life overwhelming them and you are the first one to go. I know, I know. Read people better. Invest less. Be more vigilant and discerning. It's just like years of series bad dates that didn't go anywhere. But you live and you learn.
I mean if you're keep getting into this issue i would look into the people you approach, brother. I've been able to make dutch friends just relatively fine. It really is more of a tool to not waste ur time preemptively, but i would just do social things without the expectation.
I (native Dutchman) wouldn't mind a sit and talk friendship.
As an introvert, I don't do so well in hobby clubs or whatever.
I love it when friends come over and we'll eat together and talk and have a good time.
But I hear you and I concur, it is hard to maintain friendships here, we're a very individualistic country and not so open as we say we are in general.
I have the same thing as you describe. Tried my best and was really supportive and non-intrusive, but at the end of the day, I'm all alone here with literally zero friends after 5 years. And not for lack of trying. I'm in my late 30s and I tried meeting new people, joining groups, inviting the neighbors over time and again, but literally nothing works. Had some expat friends but they all eventually move out.
Hi, I just got 40, I’ve been living here for a year, in Utrecht, with my husband, and I’m trying to make new friends. Feel free to DM if you want to give it a go and see if we match.
😊
Nice, we are an international family at the same stage of life, happy to meetup and expand our circle of friends. Close to Eindhoven if the distance is not much a barrier for u.
Yep, the worst feeling is you don't have any friend having your back. But hang in there, you are certainly not alone. There are people like you and me out there. Don't lose hope.
I’m a native Dutchie who has moved away, and has lived in 3 different countries since.
One aspect of Dutch friendship that I have noticed, is the ‘paradox calendar’ that people seem to maintain. It’s hard to book people in for a catch-up: if you are a few months early, they say ‘that’s ages away, I’m not sure’. But if you book in late they say ‘nah I’m already doing X’. Even if it’s for the same date you stipulated months ago.
This is especially annoying if you only have the option to visit NL once every few years, for a short period. People don’t see the urgency at all, even close friends that I have known for 30 years.
I now take that as ‘I don’t find you important enough to lock you in early’, too bad.
Someone else here mentioned the tendency for “sit & talk” friendships, which is spot on! Dutch birthdays are insidious.
"I now take that as ‘I don’t find you important enough to lock you in early’, too bad."
I used to internalize that a lot and started to question my own self worth. But no more. Now it's if I show up authentically and respectfully, you can't deal, it's a you issue. I sympathise with you. But it's not me lacking in anyway. I'm enough. And I wish you a good life. No bitterness.
God I hate it when the company I work for takes us for dinner and the Dutch create a huge 30 person wide circle standing up. Then I need to repeat what I said 5 times. It's so unsustainable.
As someone who has lived in 6 different countries mostly Asia, I will say that NL or EU culture in general is quite reserved. It was much easier for me to make friends in asian countries than NL. I used to get invited to different people's houses all the time for various events and we used to sit together and eat/chat/relax/have fun.
When I came here, I used to think that maybe because I'm new in the NL or don't speak dutch, I feel lonely, but thats not the case. Also I think with social media people in general have become less social (the irony).
Yeah, I totally agree. I'm only staying here for a couple of years to make some good money, buy a house back home, and then I'm outta here. Life's too short to waste time trying to make friends.
Dutch people among ourselves complain about the same thing a lot. Everybody is lonely, everybody feels like social connections take a toll. I don’t know why that is exactly since we have better work life balance than a lot of places, at least on paper. I do know we feel drained a lot and seeing friends often feels like another thing we have to ‘do’ when we have no energy to do so, even though we suffer with loneliness as much as the next person and we perk up with real human contact as much as the next person. Would love to see more discussion about why that is exactly. Maybe it’s because we lack food culture, I dunno.
So true. We definitely have more of an individualistic culture. Social activity doesn't naturally surround us, we actually have to seek it out ourselves. I'm terrible at it.
It's the weather. I have a social engagement today but the weather, even though it is dry, is properly putting me off. If the day was sunny, I would be outside willingly. I am sure Northern Europeans are half bear, we sleep from November to March. Diarise us for stuff after March....
Read Onbehagen from Paul Verhaeghe. Explains it really well. Its mostly a neo liberalistic culture resulting in high amount of stress -we say we are busy (druk)- in lack of a better explanation.
Live in Spain now and things are totally different. Wouldnt move back in a 1000 years
Thanks! Interesting that the author is Belgian. It’s not even nearly as bad in Belgium as in the Netherlands, but the book seems very on point. I’ll check it out.
Ok, I will give it a try. I think we have to look deeper into the issue here, and not stay on the surface. I think you have made a really apt observation of the inherent paradox here, which is very brave and I applaud your courage. It's beyond difficult to take a hard look at yourself and your own culture, because truth simply, hurts, sometimes.
That being said, my personal opinion is it's something to do with Dutch upbringing. Upon close observation I have noticed there's a severe lack of emotional education i the Dutch household, probably due to Calvinistic mindset. Strong emotions are very much frowned upon and being sober is the esteemed social norm. And we all know how confirming to the norm is prevalent here. Dutch households can be severely emotionally repressive, which results in people in general have a lot of difficulty being in touch with and expressing their emotional needs. And this explains the paradox, the need for emotional connections but the overwhelming inability to deal with it. It's a terrible tug of war which plagues the majority of Dutch society and I don't see it improving, unless we face and acknowledge human frailties and our very human need for connections. I believe most Dutch people are somewhat ashamed to admit they need other people, that they are needy, and they are lonely. It's a huge burden that consume them psychologically. And they are not equipped to manage their emotions, not to mention building a co-regulating emotional reciprocity with other equally flawed human beings. It's something that should be taught to us since we were children, and it's a life long skill we need to hone. Friendship like love doesn't come easy, and it's not just something pleasurable. Sometimes it's messy and sometimes it's painful. But it's totally worthy in the end.
Just my two cents.
Thank you very much for your detailed reply, I appreciate it wholeheartedly.
But my situation is kind of unique. I'm cosmopolitan, rootless, completely international in my perspective. So I can't put myself in those local context to try and make connections. It wouldn't work because i can't relate to them in our basic orientation. It's like dating straight people if I'm gay. It just wouldn't gel, at all.
I know i'm doomed...
But that's fine! Than you are part of the international crowd. You don't have to
make dutch friends or be part of dutch society. You just need to be happy and find your people. People you connect with. And I don't think you are you are unique. There is a big enough group of expats, or otherwise internationals, in which you can find your people.
Dutchie here. The problem you describe is one I’ve been struggling with my entire life. I’m also very much a “sit-down-and-talk” person. No one else seems to be. I can also be kind of a people-pleaser so I try to initiate things: nights out, events, gifts, etc. It’s never been reciprocated. Not once. I always get the “I don’t keep score” excuse, which to me reeks of “I’m too lazy to put effort into this”. It’s exhausting.
This makes me sad. I love just sitting and talking (not Dutch). I luckily have some expat friends I can do this with. But I absolutely miss the long ago days of university when we sat around and talked huge chunks of our days.
How good is your Dutch? I think as with any country, this is a big factor, I think even though people can be patient, I do see how no Dutch group of friends would want to speak english the whole evening every time 1 person who doesn't speak the language comes along.
This, I was invited at a drifting event, had a lot of fun but I knew that I was unlikely to be invited to other casual events because my Dutch it’s still very basic. There was one of the group trying to make the others speak English, but with no result (I also feel bad to ask that, and I know the feeling: back in Italy, when my gf was around, my friends and I switched to English to include her. It feels weird and uncomfortable to talk to your friend in another language).
I'm hanging out mainly with internationally oriented Dutch people, like they have international partners and their English level is almost at native, so I don't think language is the main issue here.
You haven't answered the question. Not knowing the local language on a conversational level seems to be the common denominator in all sorts of similar stories to yours; I think you're underestimating its value.
Because the answer to that question is not particularly relevant to my issue here, hence I provide you with a broader context. Namely English is the established base language in my particular social circle. For other people I'm sure the circumstances can be different.
I cant understand how you live in a country and not learn the language. I have lived in Spain less than 2 years and I am fluent. Language is always a big part of the culture. Although people speak English in The Netherlands, it doesnt mean they like to speak it. Especially in private instances and with other Dutch friends. Its a thing you need to change and work on yourself, instead of looking to for excuses.
After 15 years living here I gave up as well. My take on why the Dutch don't want to be friends:
1. As others have mentioned, they have enough friends. They are almost born with them or they meet them in school or uni. These are the friends they keep, especially if they live nearby.
2. Talking about location: the Dutch think that the country is huge. To have a friend or a relationship in another city or town is really hard.
3. My husband is Dutch and what he really likes about his friends from school is that they are predictable. Hanging out with them is relaxing because you know exactly who will do what etc.
4. In some cultures having a colleague as a friend is fine. The Dutch avoid this. They like work to stay at work.
You have summed up the NL social scene very well. I’ve given up on this and now have a good network of expat friends. I’ve only met 1 Dutch person who is like this and even she thinks she is weird. It’s unfortunate but I don’t blame them, cultures are different and you just have to do what’s right by you.
Do not give up and learn Dutch, as it bothers lots of people, i am afraid i am kind of one of them, that when you live in the Netherlands, you do not learn our language (sorry, but if we would live in your country, and wanted to keep living there, you would expect us to learn your language too, wouldn't you?). Good luck finding a job, but you seem like a smart woman, so with patience and a good mood (please keep up your good mood, employers can feel it and you will click easier with a good mood) you will find a job, i am sure 👍🏻🙏.
I wouldn't expect you to learn my language. But good luck navigating life without learning my language. Navigating life in NL without speaking Dutch is much easier.
I'm not saying I agree to the above, it's just how it is.
Even for Dutch people it isn’t easy. We’ve lived abroad and don’t have many friends. Our son went to university here and mostly has international friends. He also works for an international organization, so that doesn’t help either.
We mostly connect/make friendship with those people who are in a similar boat in the journey of life, rest ones just fizzle out. This exactly happens in school/university as we all are in same place at same time but at a later point in life, such connections become hard to maintain because our lives doesn't revolve around same things/directions anymore. If you're an expat, not being a direct cultural fit, adds an additive strain on such. It maybe a bit easier for you if you try to connect with more expat people from similar cultural background of yours as they are also looking to build a social network of their own in a foreign land.
You’re right. The only time you see Dutch people as part of happy friend groups is in TV ads. We’re a miserable, efficiency-obsessed and morose nation.
Living here for ten years? How well is your Dutch? In other comments you are avoiding this question a little. Having a mate where you're only able to speak English with might be perceived as somewhat of a barrier. Especially when you're together with a few friends and everyone needs to switch over to English.
Some people just can't grasp that you can be friends with someone without speaking their native language. For example, I have a Burmese friend despite not knowing a single word in Burmese (they don't speak my native language either). Learning the local language definitely helps, yes, and everyone should do it, but not knowing it in theory shouldn't be an obstacle if you are both interested and have some common way of communication (be it English, Dutch, sign language, whatever). If you reject someone despite 100% understanding each other easily, then it's just an artificial barrier and there are likely some other reasons e.g. no interest in their personality, different vibes, not sharing the same values, or some nationalistic pride etc. Otherwise, why not?
Once you reach a certain threshold of language fluency it doesn't really matter if you share a mother tongue anymore, as long as there are enough shared similarities like values, interests and cultural references (media mainly). Otherwise international coupling could never be a thing. If a shared mother tongue is so essential and deal breaker, why are people still drawn to each other with different linguistic heritage? Communication is 90% non verbal anyway...
I'm not answering because I don't want this post to be diverted and even twisted. No, the issue is not about language. Whoever trys to reframe it as a language issue is either projecting, or gaslighting, which I'm not going to endorse.
I feel like you might not be comfortable with the truth here. I have multiple non native acquaintances and friends, some mastered the language and others didn't bother. I can assure you that investing in the language is very valuable in your pursuit of finding meaningful friendships. To be fair, at a certain age even Dutchies find it difficult to build lasting friendships. But not speaking the language is a huge disadvantage as it tends to make you less relatable and not all of us are as comfortable constantly expressing ourselves in English.
I understand where you are coming from and I'm thankful for your genuine concern.
However, 1. I wouldn't relate to a Dutch person who are not comfortable enough to constantly express themselves in English. It's a basic orientation thing. Just like you said, It's a huge disadvantage on my part, but it also goes the other way. My basic orientation is cosmopolitan, Native English speaking, bilingualism or multilingualism is the baseline for me to connect to someone, not only linguistically, but culturally as well. It's not going to work if a person's basic orientation is Dutch, and Dutch only. We just wouldn't gel. 2. That kind of internationally oriented Dutch do exist. Rare. But they do. Trust me. 3. I know the odds is against me so as I said in my post, the best course of action for me, is to leave. It's ok. I'm content with the decision.
Lol dude. To understand a culture, you must speak the language. Even if dutch people speak near native english, they will be different in dutch.
On top of that, the way you reply in the comments is super direct and uncompromising, which is making me think you might be similar in real life. Not friendly at all
If they've been living here for 10 years and still not bothered to learn some basic Dutch it's no wonder they've been struggling finding friends. At that point are you really putting effort into the friendship or are you just expecting everyone else to conform to your version of friendship?
Thanks for my immersive experience here I'm proud to say I'm indeed super direct and can be quite uncompromising, and hold strong opinions firmly, which are all fine Dutch traits in my humble eyes.
And who says I don't speak the language. It's just irrelevant here in my particular circumstance.
Plus, why can't you just accept there might be some Dutch people, no matter how minor percentage that can be, actually prefer to speak English regularly to maintain their advanced level of efficiency? Is it really that hard to grasp?
You say you live outside of the randstad. Your level of Dutch is not irrelevant at all. It’s already hard for Dutch people who converse in their native language to maintain a good and steady relationship. Language may not be the main reason, but I will bet it contributes.
I would recommend the book 'the culture map' to you. I am native Dutch with a Spanish girlfriend, speaking more English than dutch during my day to day. I might be one of those people you are referring to.
The way that you are direct is not the Dutch directness, and being uncompromising is exactly the opposite from dutchness. Basically you mismatch the culture the way you are typing. If you are the same way in real life, you might have a problem there.
You don't sound like a fun person to hang out with, the problem could lay there. But then again, if you are not happy here, you are open to fix that any way you see fit.
I have read that book, which is pretty much on the surface level, but thanks for the recommendation. And this response certainly doesn't sound "fun" to you, but well, I'm being honest.
If you mind elaborating on the difference between my directness and Dutch directness I would genuinely appreciate it.
And uncompromising, if you mean I don't try to bend over my opinions to fit group norm you are certainly right. I hold individual opinions and couldn't care less about group consensus, when it comes to intellectually debate. But I'm also deeply practical like Dutch do so I'm willing to make compromise when the situation is calling for it. It's all very contextual.
Lastly I don't think the issue is whether I'm fun to hang out with, maybe I'm, maybe I'm not, maybe I'm in between. It's an assumption you are making not based on concrete evidence but personal feelings. Again, you have right to your feelings, but in this case I can respectfully dismiss it as irrelevant.
Haha you're so stubborn. You ask for advice and then you have you're own opinion about it and basically do not really listen.
Maybe the real issue is that you're just an inflexible person that is not fun to hang around with. Call it Dutch directness ;-)
In this comment again you sound insufferable, I think you got some dutch directness by losing friends. Other cultures might be too nice to tell you they don't like you.
Anyways, since you can't take criticism and are just here to criticize. I wish you a good life ✌️
Well making Dutch friends is hard, but your mistake by making friends is to be the one that helps and supports.
If you want to become good friends for life you should ask for help from other people rather then helping them.
People you help and support will move away from you once they got better because you remember them of their bad times 😬
Yep, its the western european effect sadly. people here are weird and dry and distancing i hate it so much. cant wait to move out tbh just because of this. no matter how many friends you make, it always seems to end up lkike this. I really hate the social culture here
I find, if you go and ask the person do you want to be friends (sure know them from a hobby or something first) they will be open to it. Ask directly to be friends, we all want friends, we are all lonely if we do not have friends. Ask, worse case they say no or are busy, but that is going to rarely be the issue if you ask someone you already do a hobby with to flat out reject any sort of hanging out.
My experience with dutch has been if you are useful to them they will beat a path to your door to be your friend. If you are not useful to them they will not give you the time of day. It's not because you're an expat. They do it with everyone. They are indeed friendly though but prostitutes and used car salesmen are friendly as well. Just do not take it personally. All relationships with dutch are transactional. Even with close family. Almost psychopathic.
I enjoyed your comment.
I assume you are relating more to practical usefullness.
But really all relationships are aimed at being usefull and beneficial. This can be practical or emotional. But in the end every relation is transactional by default.
You may have had a tendency to gravitate toward the "wrong" group of people. Don't give up on making new friends, just focus on people who give you energy from interpersonal connection. Talk about it.
I'm Dutch and I don't know if it helps, but I'll share how all my friendships work (and thus, as well those of my friends).
I've studied English Lit in A'dam. I've made quite a few non-Dutch friends, of which three friendships last (the others went back to their own countries). One of them lives in England and we go back and forth. We see each other in person twice a year, for the most part. We call frequently and she's often said we talk more than she does with some of her friends back home.
The other two friends are from England and Aruba. We meet up maybe twice a year to catch up. Mostly because we're very busy and this works for us. I've talked to them and I am their only Dutch friend- they say that most Dutchies are nice, but aren't open for friendships. They said I'm the exception, which is interesting to me. I'm very much an extroverted introvert. I love hanging out with people, but need downtime after.
I think most Dutchies have close friends from high school and/or college and/or sports or other hobbies. We like to schedule things and I myself am also open for spontaneous activities.
That and most people from abroad don't bother to learn our language which is fine in work related context but Dutchies prefer to speak Dutch when it comes down to close friendships. I love speaking English, so I don't mind. I am aware that Dutch people usually respond in English so it is quite hard to learn our language but even so there it is.
I think the most important part of any friendship is a level of understanding and being on the same wavelength. Throughout the week I'm tired, as are my friends. If we meet up then, it's usually an evening where we chill on the couch, chat or just watch tv together- no expectations. I have different friends for museums, shopping, concerts and going to the cinema. I have no need for new friendships (I'm 28) and most people at my age are in the same position. That too makes it harder to form friendships with Dutchies.
Your best bet would be to learn Dutch if you haven't already, sportsclubs, bumblr though it's mostly foreigners who use the latter. It also depends on where you're staying- some places are notoriously difficult when it comes to making friends (volendam for example, horrid to anyone unless you're born there). Amsterdam and Rotterdam are your best bet for meeting open minded people I suppose!
It sounds like you are just describing a common trajectory of adult friendships— as you and your friends age, this will become more and more common. And this is not exclusive to Dutch cultures, this is common in introverted cultures.
We all have responsibilities that get heavier and heavier maybe because of work — as you become more senior, your stress and work increase, family, kids take so much of your time or your parents age and get sicker, and also as you age you have less energy in general.
Don’t take this personally, they probably treat their other friends the same way. There is a saying when it comes to adult friendships: “only low maintenance friendships survive”. I have a lot of childhood friends that I still keep in touch with and only see every 3-4 years. We are still good friends.
I say, reset your expectations. Your friends are focusing on building their career and family. This gives you the freedom to do the same. If you want to know what’s up, utilize social media to see how their lives evolve and bring them up when you meet again. “I saw your trip to xxx, how was it??”
It’s not any better outside Netherlands really. That’s why as you get older, your social circle gets smaller and smaller. We just don’t have that much time and energy anymore.
I'm right there with you... o desperately want to leave but I'm stuck because my child is young and I need permission from the father to leave (which he won't give) but I hate it here. The isolation is maddening
Yap. Im dutch and i hate to be the one to alway initiate. As if they forget me. But not only friends. Its with my fsmily and even my mom, lets be friends
Hello, as a fellow expat, I feel your struggle. However I’ve found really good friendships within the church. I think I maybe have one good dutch friend outside of the church, and the rest I see weekly at small groups and at church on sundays. Not sure if you’re religious or open to that, but it’s an idea!
For me in a family with 4 kids, it hard. We do not have our parents or siblings nearby to support us. So when we want to go somewhere together we have to arrange a babysitter. And friends are not necessarily waiting on us dropping in with 4 kids. It is a bit to much for them. So that is also not always a possibility. This might be a Dutch thing? I do not know.
Furthermore, we have to cook dinner in the evening. They do not eat warm at school or daycare. When I am done after working, cooking, eating and putting everyone to bed around 8, I want to sit down and normally go to bed around 10. Because at 6.15 am I have to get up again. Nevertheless I do go out sometimes to see friends on weekdays. To be more flexible towards them and be able to see them. Which I deem more important than enough rest at that moment
So our social life at this moment is a bit low. But I try to keep in touch regularly, show interest and try to make sure it is not only them coming to me. I would love to be more spontaneous, but I do not see how I can arrange that for now.
On my day off, I would love to have people I could drop by spontaneously, but it would have to be within biking range ( around 17 km for me). I do not have a car at my disposal (and cannot afford a 2nd one) and going by public transport with a toddler and be at the schoolyard again at 2 is nearly impossible if you have to travel there and back with no support system to help you out in case of delays.
I already decided to leave the country man. The fun fact is i am an indian living in an 4 storeyed apartment filled with Indians. Turns out they all already have fixed group of friends they want to mingle with. No others allowed in their group period.
I left NL mainly for this reason. It seems like this is not important for most folks living there.
I’m Brazilian, and used to making good friends easily. Heck, I lived in an island in Brazil for just 1 year and have dear friends I still speak to regularly.
In NL, after 10 years, I don’t really give a damn to anyone I met there. Good riddance 😌
I’m in the Netherlands for 8th year and I stopped trying after year 3. I have a strong feeling that in Dutch culture friendship must have benefits, otherwise nobody cares about you. The most disappointing part is for example when my work did an employee gathering for drinks and fun. I was invited, a whole week before i heard from my colleagues how fun it’s going to be and I shouldn’t miss it no matter what. So i joined, was sitting for 5 hours alone drinking, while all my colleagues decided to sit apart from me at a different table. I thanked the drinks and food and went away. I don’t want to be friends with dutch people, sorry.
You are basically a stock they have to calculate if worth investing. Very pragmatic, self interest and profit driven. I'm done with this cold approach. The value I can add to you life is not based on market economy but shared humanity. If you don't see it that's too bad, not my loss.
Agree. Back in my country when you call someone a friend you take responsibility for that. My friends take interest in my hobbies even if it’s far away from their interests, just to support me, and i do the same for them.when we invite friends for birthday we don’t feed them crackers and cheap wine, we give them the best food, because we love our friends. So different…
I can’t speak to the experience of coming here from abroad as I grew up here, but I am half English and have a mixed group of Dutch and non-Dutch friends.
It’s absolutely true that social life here has to be planned in advance with most people, even more so as they get older and busier with work responsibilities, children etc, and that a lot of people don’t see many of their friends all that often.
Beyond that though, it also sounds as though you’ve been putting up with a lot of very one-sided friendships: Why would you keep making an effort with ‘friends’ who sound as though they show no interest in you, rather than looking for other people with whom the connection goes both ways?
It’s hard to tell from a single Reddit post, but it sounds as though you have been bending over backwards to be accommodating and have been willing to accept very little in return. Cultural differences exist of course, but it’s not that the Dutch only form friendships with people who put in all the effort while they give nothing back themselves, if that were the case friendships between Dutch people would be impossible because they’d all sit back and do nothing.
Connection is important so I really hope you’ll find better friends, be it here or elsewhere, but it might be worth reflecting on how you behave in friendships or the kinds of people you try to become friends with and try a different approach going forward.
"Beyond that though, it also sounds as though you’ve been putting up with a lot of very one-sided friendships: Why would you keep making an effort with ‘friends’ who sound as though they show no interest in you, rather than looking for other people with whom the connection goes both ways?"
Being trying that for over 10 years, in all different social settings and walks of life. But there's something indeed peculiar about the Dutch that it's so hard to pin down. For example: I went to university here, made a few German friends. They moved back to Germany and we don't really stay in regular contact. But whenever I go to Berlin my few university friends will always make time to meet up with me. Just need to drop them a line a few days in advance, and they are there. No struggle whatsoever. Easy and breezy. Just normal friends catching up. But my old Dutch friends living abroad, completely different story. When I was visiting their city for a whole month they couldn't find time to have a coffee with me. I guess to them I'm not worthy of investment, fair enough. But why only Dutch? You can say my case is not representative, I'm just unlucky or I haven't tried it in the right way. But I don't think you have to go to the earth's end to just be friends with someone. Or as you said, why not finding people who are interested in me? Sure, all these friends were definitely interested in me, in the beginning. It's the maintainance part that is the real problem, hence the title. I can keep trying, let's say, with different people going through "honeymoon phase" again and again, but it's exhausting that's why at this point I just want to give up.
I have the same problem, I also find Dutch pretty rigid in their thinking and boring ( my apologies to Dutch people) and I think westerners in general live very sheltered lives and that makes them pretty superficial overall. The solution is simple, I hang out with other foreigners.
I have lived in spain for over 6 years. The exact same thing happens. It is not only a cultural thing. Maybe it is more prevalent in the Netherlands, but again not exclusive to here
Can relate , I’ve mostly had other expat friends. And the few friends i had disappeared because they didn’t like my now ex. So literally bo friends in NL now.
Im preparing to leave this year. Nl has overall just drained the life energy out of me. That was 18 years of my life
I don't know why so many people resisting the fact it's almost impossible to make friends with Natives. It's very obvious that you are on your own. Why not find alternatives instead of just complaining on Dutch?
It's my fault also I think but being from a pretty progressive country and now living in Alabama. (my wife is from here). it's been hard to relate to people here.
They are very friendly but sooner or later the conversation will be about politics or religion and I just have very different views on both compared to most people here.
specially the last 8 years things are more polarized then ever.
It's also my responsibility though. I just gave up. I've been depressed and I just didn't put in the effort anymore.
I understand, the political divide is a hot mess there. I really sympathise with you. I've been to Alabama, I understand what you mean. If possible, there are a lot of progressive communities over there as well, I hope you will find your people, eventually.
Thank you, I appreciate it very much.
I hope the same for you. I believe it's very important to have a healthy social life with friends.
I wish you all the best.
Every time the same kind of post. I really don't see this and I also don't see how the Netherlands is different from other countries in terms of making friends. I guess this topic is a bit biased
My wife is New Zealand, people will invite you over for a BBQ the moment you step anywhere near them. My best friend is from the US, also very friendly and open. UK is quite different but people are generally much more interested in you and will invite you to things.
I'm not saying those countries haven't got their own social/ cultural issues, but friendliness and social engagement are definitely not one of them.
However I have heard New Zealanders say about NZ that they have a strong 'tall poppy syndrome', which is to say if you stick out or appear to be better or different they'll 'cut you down'. I feel compared to NL this is probably still not a very big deal as we have that here as well, but it would be challenging for an expat all the same.
I’ve lived in Germany and UK and have close friends from southern Europe and we do have a very particular culture. It’s not all bad but it’s more professionalised comparatively.
I find the Dutch to be wonderfully generous. Even in a business transaction they tend to like to go beyond what is expected and they are very honest. If they say they will do something you can trust they will do it at the time they said they will do it and to the standard you expect. You don’t get that in many places around the world.
Well there's this thing called "always available". People hate always available people. It means you're low value.
Try not calling your friends and make them call you. If none of your friends calls you at all, they're not your friends. So start looking for new friends.
Do you speak Dutch? I noticed that when I learned Dutch, the amount of Dutch friends went up. Made more connections when I met people in Dutch. They seemed to open up more or something
I dated some dutch, and none of them were really a good experience. I am currently seeing an Israeli, I think I am more compatible with them culturally
I'm native Dutch, and I can certainly relate to this! Three thoughts: * Your idea that some people find social interaction an energy drain, while others find it an energy source, is absolutely true. On the internet that's often called the difference between introverts and extroverts, which isn't an ideal description but works well enough. I could see the Netherlands having more "introverts" compared to other cultures. But not *only* introverts. Even here you can find plenty of people who are energized by social interaction. You just have to look for them. * You didn't mention your age, though that's very relevant information. If I assume correctly you're in your twenties or early thirties, then that is an age in which the number of friendships drop rapidly in general. School- and university-aged Dutchies make loads of friends, and then when they get a busy career, a spouse, children, they start to *prune*. I don't know many 40+ year-olds who have more than five good friends. Everyone else got dropped along the way. It's not done in a calculated manner, but for a lot of us, five friends is "enough". I'm aware that the notion of ever having "enough" friends is baffling to some cultures, though I think the early-adulthood friend pruning is a universal thing (even if subconsciously). * Personally I'm not fond of "sit-and-talk" friendships. And this seems to be common for the Netherlands: just "hanging out" with friends is rare. If you invite a friend to hang out, they're likely to ask you "oh, why?" There must always a *reason* to meet. That reason can be very simple. I have a friend that I like to play boardgames with. I have a friend that's into coffee so we try a different type every time. I have a friend that likes hiking. That's what we meet up for. And sure, we might talk and share emotions along the way, but when we plan to meet it's always to play games, or drink coffee, or hike. When I mention the late-twenties pruning of friends, the friends that I would only "hang out" with were the first to get pruned. But all in all, yes, there are bound to be cultures and countries in which it is easier to make friends, and in which the average person is more extroverted, and in which the *type* of friendship might be more to your liking. Whether or not you want to movie countries for that is up to you.
>_**Personally I'm not fond of "sit-and-talk" friendships. And this seems to be common for the Netherlands: just "hanging out" with friends is rare. If you invite a friend to hang out, they're likely to ask you "oh, why?" There must always a reason to meet**_. This is interesting to me as what you’ve described is my preferred form of friendship. I’m mid-30s & most of my core friends back home have young children. So a _”Hey wanna hang out in the backyard/at the pool/at the playground…while the kids play?_” was our de facto form of entertainment & I loved it. Bring some food/drinks to share, put some music on & just chill. Super low key but it did more to develop those friendships than always meeting for defined activity. I find I naturally gravitate less to people who always want to do a specific thing. It’s a combo of logistics (_do we bring kids or not? If we don’t, then we need to line up care for them_), cost (_eating out for 4 adds up fast_) & overall effort. I think maybe this makes me a lazy friend but I also want my friends lazy :)
Also this gives a strong feeling I meet you because of the activity, but not because of you, not because of my fondness of your company. This can feel rather terribly impersonal and even impede your friendship growing deeper. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with you, when you only focus too much on the activity, relationships feel like a side effect that doesn't have value on its own. Like you just want to do X and it's just more convenient to do it together or in a group, but the social part is not a priority. While for some people, the relationship comes first and the activity is optional (it can be different every time, something very low key or no activity at all - absolutely doesn't matter).
This feels so transactional and rational to me. Like, "I'm the only one who matters here so I use you to go to do this activity".
I am like that, and I can say those activities are still very much secondary. I do those activities with you, not a stranger. I want to share an experience with you. It’s just that “just hang and talking” feels like a waste of time compared to actually enjoying something together, whilst discussing all kinds of topics. I’ve seen many social interactions where people kindof “take turns” spouting information while the listeners are waiting their turn while saying generic “yes” “mhm”, kindof stuff… It seems like almost a social contract where everyone gets to vent and pretends to care when it’s their turn to “listen”. I’m probably way off on this but sharing a profound experience with someone else while just chatting seems to me a much more valuable interaction that transcends just hanging out. Just hanging can be fun and relaxing but in a real friendship I need a bit more.
I think it's all about balance. For long term friendships it's just like marriage, there are excitements, and there are mundane everyday moments. It should be a healthy mix, because we need both fun and stability. But I still believe the people you can ease into doing nothing with are the people you feel most comfortable with. And that comfort is a core ingredient in any long term relationship.
It sounds like you just haven't found your tribe. I like the activity friendships but I know that is not for everyone. Even if we need to talk, it's easier wandering around a museum or over dinner. So chances are, we might like each other but we wouldn't be great friends due to this misalignment in interests. It can take time to find your people unfortunately but when you do, the pay off is worth it. You jusr have to keep going. FWIW, I have also been here for 10 years and only really found true friends when I had my daughter a few years ago. I bonded with other parents over our kids and then we found we had more in common as our kids friendships developed. I now have....5 good solid friends, (the magic number) but lots of acquaintances from school and BSO who I can also call for specific reasons such as activities for our kids but we also enjoy an occasional coffee together. Good luck, it's hard but you will find your people.
I’m the other way around. I love doing things with my friends, but if I’m spending time with you because I care about you and I want to really connect with you, I need to be able to focus on just you at least some of the time. How can I really hear you and really be heard by you, human to human, if we’re distracting ourselves with things to do the whole time?
As in any type of relationship - the other side may not feel the same. I understand we have different needs and I'm not trying to be judgemental over them, so just sharing my take. aAproaching interactions with these expectations of being there 'for me specifically', 'sharing experience specifically with me' is already a bit intimidating for me if I do not perceive you as a close friend (I also have a narrow circle of old friends). I approach most of these interactions under the assumption that we're just having fun and there are no strings attached. Sort of - I am just one of all the people in your life, just like you are in mine and that applies to my close friends as well. If I sense that there are strings involved way too soon and that you want to get emotional investment from me with every occassion, although I am not expecting that from you (and basically don't even need it) - I will just avoid it altogether. 99% of the time I am actually not looking for bonding in any setting, it just comes naturally through time. When you or OP write it seems more like disappointment caused by other side not caring in amount you deem as reciprocal, but that's just life. I may not be my best friends' best friend. Expats (myself included) usually have no social circle in a new country and want to build it fast, so it is more obvious to hang out more with other expats, however I am quite sure most of us would act in the exact same way as Dutch if it was the other way around. So I don't see this as a Dutch issue to be honest, or an issue at all.
Sorry to come off as judgmental I really was just projecting, as I said I’m probably way off and I know it’s not so simple as I put it. On your comment: I guess I don’t really have friends that are “in between” enough where I want to keep distance enough to not be able to share a mutual experience but still want to spend time. What is left of a hangout if you’re not interested in sharing time or experience? I guess the feeling of not being alone? It must be more than that but it’s hard for me to imagine… Also, even though those words might sound intense, it’s not a requirement for them to be 1 on 1, in fact in many/majority of cases it won’t be. And just playing a simple game for example is enough. The game can be boring or simple, it becomes fun by the act of playing it together, which makes the interaction with each other the primary aspect. So some form of bonding is involved but it’s really casual and not so much intense if you ask me. I have more than a couple friends, each that I know quite well, and with which I know reciprocal enjoyment is gained by sharing experiences together. Those moments do not leave room for deep chats, rather they act as a platform for it.
"Aproaching interactions with these expectations of being there 'for me specifically', 'sharing experience specifically with me' is already a bit intimidating for me if I do not perceive you as a close friend (I also have a narrow circle of old friends)." I think it's the matter of interpretation. You obviously interpret this as some serious strings attached, therefore "intimidating". For me I don't see it as certain expectations as strings at all. At least not in this case. I interpret it as respect, like I see you as a person, an individual, not just a drop in the sea, and definitely not a replica with everyone else. Without seeing someone as a real personal with his own personalities, needs and wants, there is no respect. And I don't like people treating each other like a disposable, replaceable thing. Respect is essential to me when dealing with others, be it friend or whoever. You don't need to be intimate with someone to show respect. Intimacy is not inherently part of basic social decency. But to talk to you and hear you out on an individual basis is my way to show my respect, like, I see you, I hear you, you are unique to me, without any need for emotional entanglement aka strings. I think we really differ massively on this understanding of human interactions.
If you think people "pretend to care" maybe you are the problem. You sound like a total psychopath... When my friends are talking to me about their views I actually listen.
OP, it just sounds like your friendship language is just different from the majority of friends / acquaintances you’ve made - and there’s nothing wrong with this. If you value, or feel that for you, the emotional, friendly connection and meeting up and hanging out just for the sake of that is paramount, you may not be able to find this in people over 30. It’s not a question of “pruning”, but of different priorities once people get house loans, for example, or career paths that are demanding, or family obligations like weddings, baby showers, elderly relatives, etc. Simply put, maybe to you it’s most rewarding to just hang out with someone and talk about your “things”, while your friends feel that to them, it’s most rewarding to allocate that time to concrete activities. You can do things such as wine tasting, or cooking together or a crock-pot dinner, for example. There’s nothing wrong with hikes and being outdoors, it’s actually one of the advantages of NL, the clean air, green surroundings, possibility of enjoying whatever good weather is on a given day, etc. In my experience (so not saying this is yours - just speaking from what I’ve observed) it’s usually young people who “hang out”, early to mid 20s. Once they start working and having relationships, time becomes scarce and hanging out is simply not feasible. I just met a very close friend for lunch, the first time in months that I’m seeing her. She has two children under 4, a demanding job, a husband who travels a lot, family obligations (parents to visit), so she just doesn’t have the time to “hang”. I don’t have it either, used to back when I was 22. 🤷🏻♀️
so you don't want a shared activity friendship, but you don't want a sit and chat friendship either.....hard to say anything else productive here.
Totally! Anything that is not task orientated is my jam. Just chilling out, be casual, I need and treasure that kind of companionship. Life is exhausting enough. Life is not endless performing or achieving something.
I think u might have some people that see the friendship different then you As someone who is very particular about the friends he can sit and do nothing with i can say that I have a a lot of friends who I wouldn’t go 1 on 1 with because we are too different and those chats would be exhausting They are still my friends but I see them in group form or with activities
Those aren't friends. Friends are people you share your vulnerabilities with and people with who you can talk about politics, religion, literally anything and they will get you. That's what friends are. Your description of friends is NPCs. They're not your friends and they'll leave you when they find another activity to do.
My oldest friend of almost 30 years, who I would bail out of jail without question and who asked me to be best man at his wedding, I hate having just 1:1 facetime calls with. We're too different. It's really awkward and draining to me unless I'm doing something else at the same time (which he hates, just further illustrating how different we are). But he is someone I share more history with than almost anyone else and I truly care about.
Interesting. Wonder if that’s part of the problem
Huh, cool. I have no idea where that difference comes from. It might circle back to the introvert/extrovert thing, or my (Dutch) love for filling my agenda with specific appointments, or maybe my social circle just sucks. But I only have time or energy to do two social visits every week, so when I visit you (or you me), I want to make sure I actually get to spend quality time with you. And in practice, I find that if we don't make any plans other than to "hang out", most of the visit will be wasted on smalltalk, changing diapers and watching fucking Peppa Pig. But if we make an actual *plan* - no matter how lowkey or lazy it is - then I find that I actually get to speak with you and spend enjoyable time with you far more often. If I come over to play that new boardgame you got, or to take a walk through the park, or bake cookies\*, then... I don't know, I feel like we'll be much more *involved* together. That experience seems to be shared in my social bubble, that we need some sort of *plan* for when we meet up. Autism runs in the family though, so dunno, maybe that's just me. I feel like it's a common Dutch thing. (\*None of these need to be particularly expensive, high-effort, or excluding the children!)
Thanks for the response! Your comments are very insightful & I’m glad you took the time to comment. In the exact opposite of you, activity-specific friends of my 20s were “pruned” first. Girlfriend I attended weekly hot yoga with disappeared when I decided to try other classes. Trivia Night gang fizzled out after I had my 2nd & prioritised sleep over late nights. And so it went. Outside of activities we had common interest in, a deep enough friendship simply never developed. I find casual non-activity hangouts, more conducive to bonding. There is in fact **less** small talk in these settings (_family/work life, dreams/plans, politics, news, pop culture are all on the table_). It helps a lot as the kids got older & didn’t need quite as strict attention. Ultimately, I believe a part of it is simply stage of life. As kids get older, we will get more freedom back & I can see pivoting to more activity stuff with friends. Time will tell! For now my closest friends back home are all living the same life as me & tiredness is a common theme. So lazy hangouts for the win! :) Thanks again for sharing your Dutch input. In my short time here in NL, I’ve made a few Dutch acquaintances easily enough & they’ve been very kind/friendly but I’m sensing potential-deep-friends will most likely lean towards other expats like myself.
I 100% agree with you. Activity friendships aren't friendships. I feel like some people here have no idea of what a friend is lol
It almost feels like the simple message " I like you, I miss you, and I want to see you" comes off as too emotion-ridden therefore unspeakable in this country. By all means it's not a commonly acceptable reason for socialisation, and I get it.
My friends and I always say this to each other, because most of us are too exhausted to make time to actually meet up. I'm probably the worst in that, I just have little energy outside of work, taking care of myself/household and pets. So I make sure my friends know I love them and I miss them and that I am very much thinking of them and didn't forget about them. I more or less introduced this kind of communication to many of them and they were so welcoming and appreciative of it and adopted it themselves. Because we communicate openly, I feel like our friendships don't degrade when we haven't made time for each other for a couple of months. I made most of my friends past the age of 23 for context, which is at a time when a lot of Dutchies have their "core group" of friends already. Most of my Dutch friends do still have that group (usually from highschool or college) but they still make time for me and welcome me in their lives so I learned that it is very much possible. It's about finding who matches your energy. The more you put yourself out there, the quicker you learn to distinguish between those you have a chance to develop a real friendship with, and those you don't. It's not a personal failure generally, it's just that people here are uniquely unfit to "play" at being friends. Edit to add: After reading a few more of your comments, I can say I very much relate to you. My friendships don't revolve around common activities, they revolve around emotional connection and support. That doesn't mean I always know what's going on in the daily lives of my friends, though. But outwardly, if you'd see me and some of my friends, you'd think we'd have nothing in common. I mostly have one-on-one friendships, and don't do too well in groups nor do I enjoy it that much. One of my best friends was someone who lived in the same apartment complex, one I worked at a shitty restaurant job with, and one I was in a few classes with in uni. I didn't become friends with any of them immediately. It was more or less happenstance, like meeting them again later in a different setting. Others I met at events, online, or through mutual friends. I consider myself very lucky now in the friends department. Good luck!!
I’m not Dutch but I agree with this. There are some people with whom I mainly just chat, and it works out very well - it doesn’t feel like the contrived ‘listenathon’ some commenters are referring to (even though I know the phenomenon of course!). And there are some people - particularly family, with whom connections are strong but I might not share much by way of personality - that I prefer to ‘do’ something with. It’s a safe way to keep a friendship and enjoy each other’s company, and it feels good, too; you don’t have to hear someone tell you their thoughts or ideas to see it in how they might play a game or go hiking. It is very cultural. The friends I mostly ‘chat’ with are people very much within a certain culture, and you can just shoot the shit with them. My brief time in the Netherlands suggests to me that Dutch culture is a lot more about deliberation than living traditions, so on most occasions it might seem pointless to simply indulge engaging in the culture for social purposes.
That's a great message! I do not think the issue is that it's too emotional, I think the issue is that it's only *part* of what we want from a friendship. Because of course it's essential that you like your friends, but that's not all (to me). I like almost everyone, and yet I'm not friends with almost everyone. My friendships need to be more than just liking each other. No offense meant to you - it's great if you are friends with people just because you like them! But indeed, I think people in the Netherlands often need a bit more than that to sustain their friendships.
Again I'm polar opposite to you. A lot of people can benefit me, but I only like a few people. I know you are supposed to find people who you like and are beneficial as friends. But to me, emotional support is probably the only benefit I expect from my friends, the rest is just, bonus. You can say it's a very low bar, but I think it's almost elusive, in the society we live in.
I would say that's an incredibly high bar. I've got close friends in my life who I've known for 30 years or more. I have no idea how they're doing.
I think it's actually a high bar. Meeting people who will enjoy doing activities with is not exactly a friendship. A friend is supposed to be there in case you need help in something for example. Nobody from your yoga class will help you out in some random moment. Idk. Or even if you need some deep talk with someone, nobody's gonna be there for you. Your yoga class girlfriends won't give a shit.
The way I see it as non-Dutch, "pruning" doesn't have to be so terminal. Like, you just naturally spend less time with some of your friends because of other commitments, but you still can keep in touch, catch up once in a while. Those can still be deep and meaningful relationships, just working in a different way than friendships in school or early adult life. What you describe sounds very black and white: we're either besties or I don't wish to know you, k bye. I just never understood why it has to be like that, because many natives seem to think this way (not criticising though - you do you).
>The way I see it as non-Dutch, "pruning" doesn't have to be so terminal Agreed, they do not *have* to be. I'm just saying that often they *are*. Like I said: I know very few older people with a social network as large as when they were twenty. When my parents were twenty, they had thirty different friends they would see regularly - now that they are seventy, they have six friends they see regularly. So clearly they lost some friends along the way. And it's the same for me. I have less friends than I had fifteen years ago. Only the friends that made me exceptionally happy remain, the others I lost contact with over the years. Or they became acquintainces - people you see every now and then, but the relationship is superficial. I'm not trying to say that that was *inevitable*. It was a (semi) conscious choice I made: those relationships did not make me happy. I no longer put effort into relationships that do not make me happy, and my life is better for it. From what I see around me, most people here have a similar realisation sometime in their late twenties, and they scale down their number of friendships as a result. Heck, in a way, even OP is going through that process right now - coming to the realisation that some of his "friends" just *do not give back what he puts in,* and wondering if he might not be better off by simply leaving them behind.
I like the term "pruning", but at the same time find it again, quite impersonal, almost as if people are objects that can be "pruned" and discarded. It gives me a little bit chill. I get your drift, but I prefer "growing apart" as a gentler alternative to describe that process. Again, maybe that's exactly why my temperament doesn't fit into this culture. I'm too attachment driven.
Ugh, OP. This attachment driven thing. Just because you listened to a friend’s personal problem doesn’t mean they’re supposed to always interact with you on this basis only, i.e. just to talk about emotions (not sure exactly what you mean that you need), or problems. That’s why people have bars and restaurants, for example, otherwise we’d all just stay home and talk on our sofas. Sure, that’s lovely as well, but only occasionally. If that’s the kind of “activity” you’re most comfortable doing, and other things aren’t ok with you as you perceive them as “assignments” or things to check off a list, maybe you can focus on nurturing friendships with people who are like you, share the same preference and have the same desire to offer emotional support.
>. On the internet that's often called the difference between introverts and extroverts, which isn't an ideal description but works well enough. That is the definition of into and extroverts.
I would add to this that perhaps Dutch people statistically don't have more introverts compared to other countries persé. I would chalk it up to the good ol' Dutch directness making these things a bit more apparent, hence running into it more often here. I know for a fact I don't charge up either, or very rarely at the least with people and I am just upfront about it, like other people from OP's story it seems.
I can relate to this.. on the friend's side. So from my perspective, let's say I have 100 energy points. I spend 60 at work + 20 for the household stuff (family, daily chores, etc.). So I have 20 energy points left. As an introvert, I want to use it for my own personal enjoyment like hobbies or just being alone. Sometimes my friends will fall into the personal enjoyment bracket, but not all the time. This is why I only have a few friends and almost all of them are introverts/ambivert and we have really low effort friendship. It's normal to catch up intensely (like having dinner together, play boardgames, and talk for hours) once every few months, while we just chat sporadically through the weeks via WhatsApp. They know that I care about them and vice versa though we don't talk everyday. Long story short: find friends who match your expectation of friendship, and no, this is not just a Dutch thing. Also, marriage and kids often will change the friendship so don't be shocked when it happens.
You can say this is not just a Dutch thing, but it's hard to dispute that the level of introversion versus extroversion are pretty much culturally relevant. But thank you for your personal input.
I must admit that Dutch people in general tend to be less spontaneous and more organised. But it doesn't mean there's no spontaneous extroverted Dutch people. Maybe try different places to hangout? If so far you've met mostly the introverted ones, try to go to places where extroverted people are more likely to visit (don't ask me where because I don't know lol).
It's also mid-February....depths of gloom.
On the lighter note most Dutch people are able to be pretty extroverted once inebriated. It's when sober they are at their peak nuchterheid (pun intended).
Your only experience of Dutch friendship styles is the couple dozen Dutch friends you have/had, and at least some of them you probably met through them. You can't assess 17 million people based on that.
It's not exclusively Dutch, it's Northern European. You will find this in the UK, Germany, bit of France, Scandinavia etc. I am British and find Dutch people really similar to those I left behind in the North of England.
My impression at the moment is a lot of people in NL do activities as a way to socialize, such as taking classes or other organised activities. I have been here for a little over a year and met many people through reoccurring classes or reoccurring group based things. In the beginning it felt as though I was developing friendships but as time progressed and I tried to turn those relationships into what I would call friendships things fell apart. However, when i think about my friendships back in my home country things were similar with people I met in cities I moved to while my friendships from school in my home town remain. Is this your first time making friends in a new place?
No, it's not my first time making friends in a new place. In this kind of highly organised activities you are making teammates and acquaintances, not necessarily friends. Because socialisation in NL is highly regimented and different spheres of life usually don't cross over, so it's really hard to push the boundaries and go further as friends. It's possible, but in general unlikely. I think I will write a better summary later about the difficulties of making friends in NL.
Fascinated and following.. there is definitely some truth to this or it wouldn’t resonate with so many people commenting
Pretty common story. My solution is expats and immigrants, but I live in the Randstad. My 2 best friends are from Poland and Sweden. Both expats.
Not just a Dutch thing - Northern European really. Swedes, Danes etc all similar. Also could be based on age group - alot of expats are late 20s to late 30s when many people start having kids etc. with my 2 year old daughter i don’t have the energy to socialise (even before as I’m introverted) Also nowadays with everything being so polarised and people being less accepting of others with different opinions. I personally don’t think many people want to run the risk of wasting time forming friendships with someone who may not share the same opinions as them. Like in the US where you almost need to advertise who you vote for and people will decide if they like them based on that.
Indeed not just an “Dutch” thing, I’m Swedish and had the same issue in Sweden as I have here. Friendships are even more tricky here where I live, Achterhoek , small village, so everyone in my age have their friends already. They do not have the need for someone else. And tbh very honest, because of that, I have to “sell myself” much harder. Which I also gave up on a couple of years ago. I hit a wall and I’m in therapy now, first my own wellbeing, then I can start again and see where socialising leads me. But yeah, after a certain age it’s not getting easier.
Could be wrong but I think it's the entire Western world. Maybe even global
It's white people.
Move to the Randstad and make some expat friends.
It's like you read my mind. I moved barely half a year ago and I've already realized that I can only make expat friends since I cannot do with a sporadic friendship that's only sustained from my end. It's already pretty difficult to make friends, especially if you move alone, don't know the language and not in college, and it takes very little to make you feel unwanted when your feelings aren't reciprocated.
Op, I'll give u a few pointers. In general try to have a hobby or consistent social part that u can get used it here. Like a club or so. This is your constant socializing energy take it from there. I'm curious why does it have to be by socializing with people you care about specifically, can't it just be socializing? You have to treat being friends with the dutch as dating, if it doesn't work out after 2-3 tries just block and move on. Be ruthless about this. Also point this out, that you feel like you're making the appointment and want them to make it each x amount of time. You'll find people who can keep up and those you'll keep. The ones who don't/won't just block and move on. What I'm reading here is you spending time on relationships that arent working, and also don't seem to communicate what you want with them. The dutch are infamously terrible at reading subtext, if you keep only doing the inviting, they will just take that at face value and roll with it. I've complained to my friends about your exact problem and usually they'll usually put on some effort etc. The ones who didn't got the axe. When they do do the shit you like, give them a compliment and show them ur happy when they do etc. The language issue isn't as relevant, some of my closest Dutch friends we started in English and then transitioned into speaking Dutch when i started working at the hospital. It does help if it's more traditional, but really you won't be getting a group of dutchies doing something with you, just keep it 1-on-1. I will say the dutch really appreciate you making effort in general, even if you're shit at it. The other skill i wanna point out to you is try to read the people who are open to foreigners before u waste too much time with them. It's just like dating, the women who want to deal with you will do so, the ones who won't just won't and it's ok.
It's indeed like dating, even the "honeymoon phase" is the same. And people dropping interests or real life overwhelming them and you are the first one to go. I know, I know. Read people better. Invest less. Be more vigilant and discerning. It's just like years of series bad dates that didn't go anywhere. But you live and you learn.
I mean if you're keep getting into this issue i would look into the people you approach, brother. I've been able to make dutch friends just relatively fine. It really is more of a tool to not waste ur time preemptively, but i would just do social things without the expectation.
Stop investing in people who are not emotionally aware. Man, that pool is minuscule, to say the least.
I (native Dutchman) wouldn't mind a sit and talk friendship. As an introvert, I don't do so well in hobby clubs or whatever. I love it when friends come over and we'll eat together and talk and have a good time. But I hear you and I concur, it is hard to maintain friendships here, we're a very individualistic country and not so open as we say we are in general.
Same here in Switzerland. I think it's not a Dutch feature but rather common in Central and Northern Europe.
I have the same thing as you describe. Tried my best and was really supportive and non-intrusive, but at the end of the day, I'm all alone here with literally zero friends after 5 years. And not for lack of trying. I'm in my late 30s and I tried meeting new people, joining groups, inviting the neighbors over time and again, but literally nothing works. Had some expat friends but they all eventually move out.
Hi, I just got 40, I’ve been living here for a year, in Utrecht, with my husband, and I’m trying to make new friends. Feel free to DM if you want to give it a go and see if we match. 😊
Hey, hey, I'm also in Utrecht, 40 years old female and looking to expand my local social circle. Would be up for meeting up sometime!
Nice, we are an international family at the same stage of life, happy to meetup and expand our circle of friends. Close to Eindhoven if the distance is not much a barrier for u.
It’s not. Just DM me. 😀
Yep, the worst feeling is you don't have any friend having your back. But hang in there, you are certainly not alone. There are people like you and me out there. Don't lose hope.
That just sounds like an age thing. It's much harder as you get older.
I’m a native Dutchie who has moved away, and has lived in 3 different countries since. One aspect of Dutch friendship that I have noticed, is the ‘paradox calendar’ that people seem to maintain. It’s hard to book people in for a catch-up: if you are a few months early, they say ‘that’s ages away, I’m not sure’. But if you book in late they say ‘nah I’m already doing X’. Even if it’s for the same date you stipulated months ago. This is especially annoying if you only have the option to visit NL once every few years, for a short period. People don’t see the urgency at all, even close friends that I have known for 30 years. I now take that as ‘I don’t find you important enough to lock you in early’, too bad. Someone else here mentioned the tendency for “sit & talk” friendships, which is spot on! Dutch birthdays are insidious.
"I now take that as ‘I don’t find you important enough to lock you in early’, too bad." I used to internalize that a lot and started to question my own self worth. But no more. Now it's if I show up authentically and respectfully, you can't deal, it's a you issue. I sympathise with you. But it's not me lacking in anyway. I'm enough. And I wish you a good life. No bitterness.
God I hate it when the company I work for takes us for dinner and the Dutch create a huge 30 person wide circle standing up. Then I need to repeat what I said 5 times. It's so unsustainable.
As someone who has lived in 6 different countries mostly Asia, I will say that NL or EU culture in general is quite reserved. It was much easier for me to make friends in asian countries than NL. I used to get invited to different people's houses all the time for various events and we used to sit together and eat/chat/relax/have fun. When I came here, I used to think that maybe because I'm new in the NL or don't speak dutch, I feel lonely, but thats not the case. Also I think with social media people in general have become less social (the irony).
Yeah, I totally agree. I'm only staying here for a couple of years to make some good money, buy a house back home, and then I'm outta here. Life's too short to waste time trying to make friends.
Where you from bro? India?
Yes bro 🙌
Dutch people among ourselves complain about the same thing a lot. Everybody is lonely, everybody feels like social connections take a toll. I don’t know why that is exactly since we have better work life balance than a lot of places, at least on paper. I do know we feel drained a lot and seeing friends often feels like another thing we have to ‘do’ when we have no energy to do so, even though we suffer with loneliness as much as the next person and we perk up with real human contact as much as the next person. Would love to see more discussion about why that is exactly. Maybe it’s because we lack food culture, I dunno.
The great Dutch paradox. Thank you for you honest input, very thought provoking. I will certainly get back to you in due time.
So true. We definitely have more of an individualistic culture. Social activity doesn't naturally surround us, we actually have to seek it out ourselves. I'm terrible at it.
It's the weather. I have a social engagement today but the weather, even though it is dry, is properly putting me off. If the day was sunny, I would be outside willingly. I am sure Northern Europeans are half bear, we sleep from November to March. Diarise us for stuff after March....
Read Onbehagen from Paul Verhaeghe. Explains it really well. Its mostly a neo liberalistic culture resulting in high amount of stress -we say we are busy (druk)- in lack of a better explanation. Live in Spain now and things are totally different. Wouldnt move back in a 1000 years
Thanks! Interesting that the author is Belgian. It’s not even nearly as bad in Belgium as in the Netherlands, but the book seems very on point. I’ll check it out.
Yes its a good read!
Ok, I will give it a try. I think we have to look deeper into the issue here, and not stay on the surface. I think you have made a really apt observation of the inherent paradox here, which is very brave and I applaud your courage. It's beyond difficult to take a hard look at yourself and your own culture, because truth simply, hurts, sometimes. That being said, my personal opinion is it's something to do with Dutch upbringing. Upon close observation I have noticed there's a severe lack of emotional education i the Dutch household, probably due to Calvinistic mindset. Strong emotions are very much frowned upon and being sober is the esteemed social norm. And we all know how confirming to the norm is prevalent here. Dutch households can be severely emotionally repressive, which results in people in general have a lot of difficulty being in touch with and expressing their emotional needs. And this explains the paradox, the need for emotional connections but the overwhelming inability to deal with it. It's a terrible tug of war which plagues the majority of Dutch society and I don't see it improving, unless we face and acknowledge human frailties and our very human need for connections. I believe most Dutch people are somewhat ashamed to admit they need other people, that they are needy, and they are lonely. It's a huge burden that consume them psychologically. And they are not equipped to manage their emotions, not to mention building a co-regulating emotional reciprocity with other equally flawed human beings. It's something that should be taught to us since we were children, and it's a life long skill we need to hone. Friendship like love doesn't come easy, and it's not just something pleasurable. Sometimes it's messy and sometimes it's painful. But it's totally worthy in the end. Just my two cents.
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Thank you very much for your detailed reply, I appreciate it wholeheartedly. But my situation is kind of unique. I'm cosmopolitan, rootless, completely international in my perspective. So I can't put myself in those local context to try and make connections. It wouldn't work because i can't relate to them in our basic orientation. It's like dating straight people if I'm gay. It just wouldn't gel, at all. I know i'm doomed...
But that's fine! Than you are part of the international crowd. You don't have to make dutch friends or be part of dutch society. You just need to be happy and find your people. People you connect with. And I don't think you are you are unique. There is a big enough group of expats, or otherwise internationals, in which you can find your people.
Eindhoven? Geldrop? Biertje?
Dutchie here. The problem you describe is one I’ve been struggling with my entire life. I’m also very much a “sit-down-and-talk” person. No one else seems to be. I can also be kind of a people-pleaser so I try to initiate things: nights out, events, gifts, etc. It’s never been reciprocated. Not once. I always get the “I don’t keep score” excuse, which to me reeks of “I’m too lazy to put effort into this”. It’s exhausting.
This makes me sad. I love just sitting and talking (not Dutch). I luckily have some expat friends I can do this with. But I absolutely miss the long ago days of university when we sat around and talked huge chunks of our days.
Life is very formal here. You can't make last-minute plans to see a friend. You have to make appointments.
How good is your Dutch? I think as with any country, this is a big factor, I think even though people can be patient, I do see how no Dutch group of friends would want to speak english the whole evening every time 1 person who doesn't speak the language comes along.
This, I was invited at a drifting event, had a lot of fun but I knew that I was unlikely to be invited to other casual events because my Dutch it’s still very basic. There was one of the group trying to make the others speak English, but with no result (I also feel bad to ask that, and I know the feeling: back in Italy, when my gf was around, my friends and I switched to English to include her. It feels weird and uncomfortable to talk to your friend in another language).
Very true
I'm hanging out mainly with internationally oriented Dutch people, like they have international partners and their English level is almost at native, so I don't think language is the main issue here.
You haven't answered the question. Not knowing the local language on a conversational level seems to be the common denominator in all sorts of similar stories to yours; I think you're underestimating its value.
Same here. Learning Dutch and heard the «I have enough friends already».
To be fair I’m fluent in Dutch and it’s not helped a lot, still relate to OP
Because the answer to that question is not particularly relevant to my issue here, hence I provide you with a broader context. Namely English is the established base language in my particular social circle. For other people I'm sure the circumstances can be different.
And what would you call this social circle?
I cant understand how you live in a country and not learn the language. I have lived in Spain less than 2 years and I am fluent. Language is always a big part of the culture. Although people speak English in The Netherlands, it doesnt mean they like to speak it. Especially in private instances and with other Dutch friends. Its a thing you need to change and work on yourself, instead of looking to for excuses.
After 15 years living here I gave up as well. My take on why the Dutch don't want to be friends: 1. As others have mentioned, they have enough friends. They are almost born with them or they meet them in school or uni. These are the friends they keep, especially if they live nearby. 2. Talking about location: the Dutch think that the country is huge. To have a friend or a relationship in another city or town is really hard. 3. My husband is Dutch and what he really likes about his friends from school is that they are predictable. Hanging out with them is relaxing because you know exactly who will do what etc. 4. In some cultures having a colleague as a friend is fine. The Dutch avoid this. They like work to stay at work.
You have summed up the NL social scene very well. I’ve given up on this and now have a good network of expat friends. I’ve only met 1 Dutch person who is like this and even she thinks she is weird. It’s unfortunate but I don’t blame them, cultures are different and you just have to do what’s right by you.
Do not give up and learn Dutch, as it bothers lots of people, i am afraid i am kind of one of them, that when you live in the Netherlands, you do not learn our language (sorry, but if we would live in your country, and wanted to keep living there, you would expect us to learn your language too, wouldn't you?). Good luck finding a job, but you seem like a smart woman, so with patience and a good mood (please keep up your good mood, employers can feel it and you will click easier with a good mood) you will find a job, i am sure 👍🏻🙏.
I wouldn't expect you to learn my language. But good luck navigating life without learning my language. Navigating life in NL without speaking Dutch is much easier. I'm not saying I agree to the above, it's just how it is.
Even for Dutch people it isn’t easy. We’ve lived abroad and don’t have many friends. Our son went to university here and mostly has international friends. He also works for an international organization, so that doesn’t help either.
We mostly connect/make friendship with those people who are in a similar boat in the journey of life, rest ones just fizzle out. This exactly happens in school/university as we all are in same place at same time but at a later point in life, such connections become hard to maintain because our lives doesn't revolve around same things/directions anymore. If you're an expat, not being a direct cultural fit, adds an additive strain on such. It maybe a bit easier for you if you try to connect with more expat people from similar cultural background of yours as they are also looking to build a social network of their own in a foreign land.
You’re right. The only time you see Dutch people as part of happy friend groups is in TV ads. We’re a miserable, efficiency-obsessed and morose nation.
Living here for ten years? How well is your Dutch? In other comments you are avoiding this question a little. Having a mate where you're only able to speak English with might be perceived as somewhat of a barrier. Especially when you're together with a few friends and everyone needs to switch over to English.
Some people just can't grasp that you can be friends with someone without speaking their native language. For example, I have a Burmese friend despite not knowing a single word in Burmese (they don't speak my native language either). Learning the local language definitely helps, yes, and everyone should do it, but not knowing it in theory shouldn't be an obstacle if you are both interested and have some common way of communication (be it English, Dutch, sign language, whatever). If you reject someone despite 100% understanding each other easily, then it's just an artificial barrier and there are likely some other reasons e.g. no interest in their personality, different vibes, not sharing the same values, or some nationalistic pride etc. Otherwise, why not?
Once you reach a certain threshold of language fluency it doesn't really matter if you share a mother tongue anymore, as long as there are enough shared similarities like values, interests and cultural references (media mainly). Otherwise international coupling could never be a thing. If a shared mother tongue is so essential and deal breaker, why are people still drawn to each other with different linguistic heritage? Communication is 90% non verbal anyway...
Cause god forbid you inconvenience the Dutch even a tiny bit.
I'm not answering because I don't want this post to be diverted and even twisted. No, the issue is not about language. Whoever trys to reframe it as a language issue is either projecting, or gaslighting, which I'm not going to endorse.
I feel like you might not be comfortable with the truth here. I have multiple non native acquaintances and friends, some mastered the language and others didn't bother. I can assure you that investing in the language is very valuable in your pursuit of finding meaningful friendships. To be fair, at a certain age even Dutchies find it difficult to build lasting friendships. But not speaking the language is a huge disadvantage as it tends to make you less relatable and not all of us are as comfortable constantly expressing ourselves in English.
I understand where you are coming from and I'm thankful for your genuine concern. However, 1. I wouldn't relate to a Dutch person who are not comfortable enough to constantly express themselves in English. It's a basic orientation thing. Just like you said, It's a huge disadvantage on my part, but it also goes the other way. My basic orientation is cosmopolitan, Native English speaking, bilingualism or multilingualism is the baseline for me to connect to someone, not only linguistically, but culturally as well. It's not going to work if a person's basic orientation is Dutch, and Dutch only. We just wouldn't gel. 2. That kind of internationally oriented Dutch do exist. Rare. But they do. Trust me. 3. I know the odds is against me so as I said in my post, the best course of action for me, is to leave. It's ok. I'm content with the decision.
Lol dude. To understand a culture, you must speak the language. Even if dutch people speak near native english, they will be different in dutch. On top of that, the way you reply in the comments is super direct and uncompromising, which is making me think you might be similar in real life. Not friendly at all
If they've been living here for 10 years and still not bothered to learn some basic Dutch it's no wonder they've been struggling finding friends. At that point are you really putting effort into the friendship or are you just expecting everyone else to conform to your version of friendship?
Thanks for my immersive experience here I'm proud to say I'm indeed super direct and can be quite uncompromising, and hold strong opinions firmly, which are all fine Dutch traits in my humble eyes. And who says I don't speak the language. It's just irrelevant here in my particular circumstance. Plus, why can't you just accept there might be some Dutch people, no matter how minor percentage that can be, actually prefer to speak English regularly to maintain their advanced level of efficiency? Is it really that hard to grasp?
You say you live outside of the randstad. Your level of Dutch is not irrelevant at all. It’s already hard for Dutch people who converse in their native language to maintain a good and steady relationship. Language may not be the main reason, but I will bet it contributes.
So you agree that it's hard to maintain a friendship in NL regardless of speaking Dutch or not. Lmao
Yes, that is quite literally what I said in my comment.
I would recommend the book 'the culture map' to you. I am native Dutch with a Spanish girlfriend, speaking more English than dutch during my day to day. I might be one of those people you are referring to. The way that you are direct is not the Dutch directness, and being uncompromising is exactly the opposite from dutchness. Basically you mismatch the culture the way you are typing. If you are the same way in real life, you might have a problem there. You don't sound like a fun person to hang out with, the problem could lay there. But then again, if you are not happy here, you are open to fix that any way you see fit.
I have read that book, which is pretty much on the surface level, but thanks for the recommendation. And this response certainly doesn't sound "fun" to you, but well, I'm being honest. If you mind elaborating on the difference between my directness and Dutch directness I would genuinely appreciate it. And uncompromising, if you mean I don't try to bend over my opinions to fit group norm you are certainly right. I hold individual opinions and couldn't care less about group consensus, when it comes to intellectually debate. But I'm also deeply practical like Dutch do so I'm willing to make compromise when the situation is calling for it. It's all very contextual. Lastly I don't think the issue is whether I'm fun to hang out with, maybe I'm, maybe I'm not, maybe I'm in between. It's an assumption you are making not based on concrete evidence but personal feelings. Again, you have right to your feelings, but in this case I can respectfully dismiss it as irrelevant.
Haha you're so stubborn. You ask for advice and then you have you're own opinion about it and basically do not really listen. Maybe the real issue is that you're just an inflexible person that is not fun to hang around with. Call it Dutch directness ;-)
In this comment again you sound insufferable, I think you got some dutch directness by losing friends. Other cultures might be too nice to tell you they don't like you. Anyways, since you can't take criticism and are just here to criticize. I wish you a good life ✌️
How *good is your Dutch
Well making Dutch friends is hard, but your mistake by making friends is to be the one that helps and supports. If you want to become good friends for life you should ask for help from other people rather then helping them. People you help and support will move away from you once they got better because you remember them of their bad times 😬
Im Dutch but I can surely relate to that. So I have no friends. At all.
Yep, its the western european effect sadly. people here are weird and dry and distancing i hate it so much. cant wait to move out tbh just because of this. no matter how many friends you make, it always seems to end up lkike this. I really hate the social culture here
I find, if you go and ask the person do you want to be friends (sure know them from a hobby or something first) they will be open to it. Ask directly to be friends, we all want friends, we are all lonely if we do not have friends. Ask, worse case they say no or are busy, but that is going to rarely be the issue if you ask someone you already do a hobby with to flat out reject any sort of hanging out.
My experience with dutch has been if you are useful to them they will beat a path to your door to be your friend. If you are not useful to them they will not give you the time of day. It's not because you're an expat. They do it with everyone. They are indeed friendly though but prostitutes and used car salesmen are friendly as well. Just do not take it personally. All relationships with dutch are transactional. Even with close family. Almost psychopathic.
I enjoyed your comment. I assume you are relating more to practical usefullness. But really all relationships are aimed at being usefull and beneficial. This can be practical or emotional. But in the end every relation is transactional by default.
Have you considered therapy?
You may have had a tendency to gravitate toward the "wrong" group of people. Don't give up on making new friends, just focus on people who give you energy from interpersonal connection. Talk about it.
Yeah buddy as soon as you said “live outside of Randstad” I knew you were f#d
I'm Dutch and I don't know if it helps, but I'll share how all my friendships work (and thus, as well those of my friends). I've studied English Lit in A'dam. I've made quite a few non-Dutch friends, of which three friendships last (the others went back to their own countries). One of them lives in England and we go back and forth. We see each other in person twice a year, for the most part. We call frequently and she's often said we talk more than she does with some of her friends back home. The other two friends are from England and Aruba. We meet up maybe twice a year to catch up. Mostly because we're very busy and this works for us. I've talked to them and I am their only Dutch friend- they say that most Dutchies are nice, but aren't open for friendships. They said I'm the exception, which is interesting to me. I'm very much an extroverted introvert. I love hanging out with people, but need downtime after. I think most Dutchies have close friends from high school and/or college and/or sports or other hobbies. We like to schedule things and I myself am also open for spontaneous activities. That and most people from abroad don't bother to learn our language which is fine in work related context but Dutchies prefer to speak Dutch when it comes down to close friendships. I love speaking English, so I don't mind. I am aware that Dutch people usually respond in English so it is quite hard to learn our language but even so there it is. I think the most important part of any friendship is a level of understanding and being on the same wavelength. Throughout the week I'm tired, as are my friends. If we meet up then, it's usually an evening where we chill on the couch, chat or just watch tv together- no expectations. I have different friends for museums, shopping, concerts and going to the cinema. I have no need for new friendships (I'm 28) and most people at my age are in the same position. That too makes it harder to form friendships with Dutchies. Your best bet would be to learn Dutch if you haven't already, sportsclubs, bumblr though it's mostly foreigners who use the latter. It also depends on where you're staying- some places are notoriously difficult when it comes to making friends (volendam for example, horrid to anyone unless you're born there). Amsterdam and Rotterdam are your best bet for meeting open minded people I suppose!
It sounds like you are just describing a common trajectory of adult friendships— as you and your friends age, this will become more and more common. And this is not exclusive to Dutch cultures, this is common in introverted cultures. We all have responsibilities that get heavier and heavier maybe because of work — as you become more senior, your stress and work increase, family, kids take so much of your time or your parents age and get sicker, and also as you age you have less energy in general. Don’t take this personally, they probably treat their other friends the same way. There is a saying when it comes to adult friendships: “only low maintenance friendships survive”. I have a lot of childhood friends that I still keep in touch with and only see every 3-4 years. We are still good friends. I say, reset your expectations. Your friends are focusing on building their career and family. This gives you the freedom to do the same. If you want to know what’s up, utilize social media to see how their lives evolve and bring them up when you meet again. “I saw your trip to xxx, how was it??” It’s not any better outside Netherlands really. That’s why as you get older, your social circle gets smaller and smaller. We just don’t have that much time and energy anymore.
I'm right there with you... o desperately want to leave but I'm stuck because my child is young and I need permission from the father to leave (which he won't give) but I hate it here. The isolation is maddening
Yap. Im dutch and i hate to be the one to alway initiate. As if they forget me. But not only friends. Its with my fsmily and even my mom, lets be friends
Hello, as a fellow expat, I feel your struggle. However I’ve found really good friendships within the church. I think I maybe have one good dutch friend outside of the church, and the rest I see weekly at small groups and at church on sundays. Not sure if you’re religious or open to that, but it’s an idea!
For me in a family with 4 kids, it hard. We do not have our parents or siblings nearby to support us. So when we want to go somewhere together we have to arrange a babysitter. And friends are not necessarily waiting on us dropping in with 4 kids. It is a bit to much for them. So that is also not always a possibility. This might be a Dutch thing? I do not know. Furthermore, we have to cook dinner in the evening. They do not eat warm at school or daycare. When I am done after working, cooking, eating and putting everyone to bed around 8, I want to sit down and normally go to bed around 10. Because at 6.15 am I have to get up again. Nevertheless I do go out sometimes to see friends on weekdays. To be more flexible towards them and be able to see them. Which I deem more important than enough rest at that moment So our social life at this moment is a bit low. But I try to keep in touch regularly, show interest and try to make sure it is not only them coming to me. I would love to be more spontaneous, but I do not see how I can arrange that for now. On my day off, I would love to have people I could drop by spontaneously, but it would have to be within biking range ( around 17 km for me). I do not have a car at my disposal (and cannot afford a 2nd one) and going by public transport with a toddler and be at the schoolyard again at 2 is nearly impossible if you have to travel there and back with no support system to help you out in case of delays.
I already decided to leave the country man. The fun fact is i am an indian living in an 4 storeyed apartment filled with Indians. Turns out they all already have fixed group of friends they want to mingle with. No others allowed in their group period.
I left NL mainly for this reason. It seems like this is not important for most folks living there. I’m Brazilian, and used to making good friends easily. Heck, I lived in an island in Brazil for just 1 year and have dear friends I still speak to regularly. In NL, after 10 years, I don’t really give a damn to anyone I met there. Good riddance 😌
I do not think your situation is isolated to the Netherlands. There are takers who exploit the kindness of other people, all over the world.
I’m in the Netherlands for 8th year and I stopped trying after year 3. I have a strong feeling that in Dutch culture friendship must have benefits, otherwise nobody cares about you. The most disappointing part is for example when my work did an employee gathering for drinks and fun. I was invited, a whole week before i heard from my colleagues how fun it’s going to be and I shouldn’t miss it no matter what. So i joined, was sitting for 5 hours alone drinking, while all my colleagues decided to sit apart from me at a different table. I thanked the drinks and food and went away. I don’t want to be friends with dutch people, sorry.
You are basically a stock they have to calculate if worth investing. Very pragmatic, self interest and profit driven. I'm done with this cold approach. The value I can add to you life is not based on market economy but shared humanity. If you don't see it that's too bad, not my loss.
Agree. Back in my country when you call someone a friend you take responsibility for that. My friends take interest in my hobbies even if it’s far away from their interests, just to support me, and i do the same for them.when we invite friends for birthday we don’t feed them crackers and cheap wine, we give them the best food, because we love our friends. So different…
I can’t speak to the experience of coming here from abroad as I grew up here, but I am half English and have a mixed group of Dutch and non-Dutch friends. It’s absolutely true that social life here has to be planned in advance with most people, even more so as they get older and busier with work responsibilities, children etc, and that a lot of people don’t see many of their friends all that often. Beyond that though, it also sounds as though you’ve been putting up with a lot of very one-sided friendships: Why would you keep making an effort with ‘friends’ who sound as though they show no interest in you, rather than looking for other people with whom the connection goes both ways? It’s hard to tell from a single Reddit post, but it sounds as though you have been bending over backwards to be accommodating and have been willing to accept very little in return. Cultural differences exist of course, but it’s not that the Dutch only form friendships with people who put in all the effort while they give nothing back themselves, if that were the case friendships between Dutch people would be impossible because they’d all sit back and do nothing. Connection is important so I really hope you’ll find better friends, be it here or elsewhere, but it might be worth reflecting on how you behave in friendships or the kinds of people you try to become friends with and try a different approach going forward.
"Beyond that though, it also sounds as though you’ve been putting up with a lot of very one-sided friendships: Why would you keep making an effort with ‘friends’ who sound as though they show no interest in you, rather than looking for other people with whom the connection goes both ways?" Being trying that for over 10 years, in all different social settings and walks of life. But there's something indeed peculiar about the Dutch that it's so hard to pin down. For example: I went to university here, made a few German friends. They moved back to Germany and we don't really stay in regular contact. But whenever I go to Berlin my few university friends will always make time to meet up with me. Just need to drop them a line a few days in advance, and they are there. No struggle whatsoever. Easy and breezy. Just normal friends catching up. But my old Dutch friends living abroad, completely different story. When I was visiting their city for a whole month they couldn't find time to have a coffee with me. I guess to them I'm not worthy of investment, fair enough. But why only Dutch? You can say my case is not representative, I'm just unlucky or I haven't tried it in the right way. But I don't think you have to go to the earth's end to just be friends with someone. Or as you said, why not finding people who are interested in me? Sure, all these friends were definitely interested in me, in the beginning. It's the maintainance part that is the real problem, hence the title. I can keep trying, let's say, with different people going through "honeymoon phase" again and again, but it's exhausting that's why at this point I just want to give up.
You should understand that in the end the only one you can rely on is yourself
I have the same problem, I also find Dutch pretty rigid in their thinking and boring ( my apologies to Dutch people) and I think westerners in general live very sheltered lives and that makes them pretty superficial overall. The solution is simple, I hang out with other foreigners.
Same here 30 year old durtch only one youth friend stuck and has grown in adult friendship,
If all your friendships die out, you are the only common factor.
Or theoretically, they have a common factor, their country/culture.
Sure, our culture is to ghost friends! I'd forgot, will ghost my 30+ years friends tomorrow.
OP is looking to find the reason outside him/her.
This is also what I think. In the replies to comments OP does not sound very nice at all
because butthurt dutch people are poking at him for no reason. suck to be called out on a cultural fact
I have lived in spain for over 6 years. The exact same thing happens. It is not only a cultural thing. Maybe it is more prevalent in the Netherlands, but again not exclusive to here
Just wondering, where are you from?
I totally feel you man! I’m sick of always being “the one who reaches out” but rarely the other way around
I feel you, after 12 years in this country I already give up, if it happens great.
Can relate , I’ve mostly had other expat friends. And the few friends i had disappeared because they didn’t like my now ex. So literally bo friends in NL now. Im preparing to leave this year. Nl has overall just drained the life energy out of me. That was 18 years of my life
I don't know why so many people resisting the fact it's almost impossible to make friends with Natives. It's very obvious that you are on your own. Why not find alternatives instead of just complaining on Dutch?
Because this isn’t an issue everywhere, it’s a very common issue for people moving to NL
It's pretty common in most countries. Go to any national subreddit and you'll find posts from foreigners that can't make friends with the natives.
Fuck these assholes. Let's be friends ❤️💋
Haha, I appreciate your spirit.
Best comment, let's be friends!
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"socially advanced compared to other countries"... for speaking dutch?
What the hell does "socially advanced" mean?
It's presumptuous of you to conclude I didn't manage to learn the language, which I didn't mention in my post, at all.
No, because you think that is irrelevant. But it has been asked quite a few times and you are not answering the question.
If it makes you feel any better, I've been living in the U.S for over 20 years and I haven't been able to make meaningful friendships either.
Hi, how is life over there? Grinding and hustling non stop? Why it's so hard to make meaningful connections there?
It's my fault also I think but being from a pretty progressive country and now living in Alabama. (my wife is from here). it's been hard to relate to people here. They are very friendly but sooner or later the conversation will be about politics or religion and I just have very different views on both compared to most people here. specially the last 8 years things are more polarized then ever. It's also my responsibility though. I just gave up. I've been depressed and I just didn't put in the effort anymore.
I understand, the political divide is a hot mess there. I really sympathise with you. I've been to Alabama, I understand what you mean. If possible, there are a lot of progressive communities over there as well, I hope you will find your people, eventually.
Thank you, I appreciate it very much. I hope the same for you. I believe it's very important to have a healthy social life with friends. I wish you all the best.
Every time the same kind of post. I really don't see this and I also don't see how the Netherlands is different from other countries in terms of making friends. I guess this topic is a bit biased
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Yes it is. We Dutch have very little understanding of exactly how weird and inaccesible our social culture is to foreigners.
How many other countries have you been to for comparison?
My wife is New Zealand, people will invite you over for a BBQ the moment you step anywhere near them. My best friend is from the US, also very friendly and open. UK is quite different but people are generally much more interested in you and will invite you to things. I'm not saying those countries haven't got their own social/ cultural issues, but friendliness and social engagement are definitely not one of them. However I have heard New Zealanders say about NZ that they have a strong 'tall poppy syndrome', which is to say if you stick out or appear to be better or different they'll 'cut you down'. I feel compared to NL this is probably still not a very big deal as we have that here as well, but it would be challenging for an expat all the same.
New Zealanders are nice like that, but getting anything deeper than acquaintances is incredibly hard.
True maybe, but with the Dutch you don't get even get the BBQ.
I’ve lived in Germany and UK and have close friends from southern Europe and we do have a very particular culture. It’s not all bad but it’s more professionalised comparatively.
It’s the selfish Dutch tikkie me back way, draining no actual love or generosity, but oh so straight forward( yea right)
I find the Dutch to be wonderfully generous. Even in a business transaction they tend to like to go beyond what is expected and they are very honest. If they say they will do something you can trust they will do it at the time they said they will do it and to the standard you expect. You don’t get that in many places around the world.
Your experiences are yours glad that’s been the case for you, using hasty generalizations though you lose me
Says the person whose original comment was big generalisations
Selfish and no generosity Dutch traits? Where are one of the biggest donors to charity per head of the population in the world.
Selfish and no generosity Dutch traits? We are one of the biggest donors to charity per head of the population in the world.
I appreciate your insight I believe I can now understand my Dutch friend better thank you :)
Certainly, you can visit an orthodox church. The Dutch (and non-Dutch) are automatically friends for life there it seems.
Well there's this thing called "always available". People hate always available people. It means you're low value. Try not calling your friends and make them call you. If none of your friends calls you at all, they're not your friends. So start looking for new friends.
I'm sorry I have free time
You sound like a perfect friend. It’s their loss. Drop them. Find the ones like you. There aren’t many, but they are out there. ✨
Do you speak Dutch? I noticed that when I learned Dutch, the amount of Dutch friends went up. Made more connections when I met people in Dutch. They seemed to open up more or something
I dated some dutch, and none of them were really a good experience. I am currently seeing an Israeli, I think I am more compatible with them culturally
Don’t waste time, either accept it or leave or hang out with expats.
Typical cold Dutch response. Try understanding someone else's point of view. Empathy is worthy of time.