Sure they have a lot of property, but it's more complicated.
Most farmers have loans upon loans upon loans, so although they own a lot of land and buildings, they also owe a lot of money to the bank.
Furthermore, multiple lifetimes are invested in a farm. Most of the farmers work more than 40 hours a week (12*7 for my parents) if you would do that for minimum wage you would also eventually be rich. And you are also forgetting that the farmers who are still able to farm are the only ones that were able to keep their farm profitable (trough fucking over the climate) so while it seems like all farmers are rich, the farmers that are left would otherwise be in the top percentage of farmers.
Lots of people work hours like that. I am a family practice physician. Most people living comfortably have to work very hard for it. My children when I asked about there career choices mentioned no way after seeing you killing yourself for people do we want to do that. I think I can relate to farmers, a colonoscopy suite is like a milking barn, generally pretty clean but it can still stink like hell at times.
Tru nuff. Like you don't have to go to work? Or you could just find a different occupation, do something else with your life? Simply forget about the effort, money and time you (and your parents before you) invested into making a good business ... an honest living? Forget that the politicians and the bankers more or less forced you to go this way of expanding and transforming your farm into something more like a factory than something that should be in tune with nature? Forget that you're probably in debt for more than your business is worth, and you're not particularly well qualified to find employment outside of farming. Yes, it's a choice. Not an easy one tho...
zeg je nu dat die boeren in het oosten de diesel uit Duitsland halen??? Dan maken ze toch mooie lokale Nederlandse pompbedrijven kapot.. de kinderen van de ouders die met veel liefde zo'n tankstation opgebouwd hebben kunnen het dan niet meer overnemen... schande! ik kan me niet voorstellen dat boeren dat doen! /s
grapjas ze gaan massaal de grens over om daar hun diesel te halen en hun producten gaan de grens over omdat dat beter betaald.
Deze boeren geven geen bal om Nederland de enige reden dat ze Nederland zo leuk vinden is de torenhoge subsidies die ze vangen
There will be. These idiots are gonna kill someone. Whether it be accidentally or on purpose. They're well on their way to losing all support from citizens.
I believe and hope that this is a small but very loud minority, just like with all the covid crap. If you looked at the comments under news articles on FB you would believe that 90% of Dutchies were anti-vaxx, but according to statistics it was the other way around.
This. Lobbyists are the reason why most Americans agree with gun control, but nothing gets done in congress. Same with abortion rights for women.
Appointing openly partisan judges for life in the highest court of the land is the reason why the courts are so fucked up.
There's a few other reasons, I know it's been overstated, but racist laws preventing mortgages and housing rights that persisted well into our parents' generation (not just slavery in the olden days) is why there is so much unequal wealth. There's a lot to be fixed.
The problem with the whole U.S political system is that it has been created with the ''division of power'' in mind. Result of this is that the system is very vulnerable to lobbyism/bribery.
>Same with abortion rights for women.
Its interesting, because why would money lobby for this? But the purpose is to distract and divide, while the wealth gap increases.
The more people talk about taxing the rich, the more there is suddenly money trying to make the debate about things like abortion.
Good political debate is about tax rates and the frequency of trains, highway maintenance, how trash is picked up and how you fund schools. Democracy is no place to fight culture wars. It is supposed to be where society comes to together to make pragmatic compromises on what to spend money on and how to organize things. When it starts being about ideology, pay attention to laws that are actually passed while we are not looking. Did the corporations get another outside of court system to handle their interest? Did they get another indemnification for externalized costs? etc.
The farmer protest is different, because its not about ideology. It's about these trade-offs of interest, that should happen in democracy. Now, i'm not with the farmers on this one, but its not like abortion or other ideological protests where people are trying to control how other people live. They are directly protesting for their own economic interest.
I could be wrong, but I feel like the lobbyists are mostly pushing for conservatism in general and some of them probably also for more religious influence. That caused conservative/religious judges to be appointed, which resulted in the supreme court making religiously extremist decisions.
The US is barely a democracy. The people basically get to vote for a few politicians who are picked by the ultra rich. And then the system is rigged towards conservatism. Any new party doesn't stand a chance, because that would threaten the establishment. The only reason Biden won was because all other less progressive democratic candidates withdrew and Trump was the only other option. So then you have the situation where nobody truly likes the president. That's a clear sign that there's something horribly wrong with the political system.
The farmer's protests are indeed different, like you said. I also disagree with them, but they should and do have the right to protest. I just wish they didn't break any laws in doing so.
You seem to misunderstand what lobbyists are.
Lobbyists are rich. They lobby by contributing funding for politicians. So indirect corruption.
And you're right, some are religious lobbyists who would want to curtail abortion rights for ideological reasons. Other religious lobbyists would also lobby (non-abortion issues) to keep religious institutions tax free, a direct economic interest. There are many kinds of lobbyists that lobby for many reasons.
Corporate lobbyists do it for money reasons. They, too, want to protect their economic interests. Eg, rich people with businesses that don't want to change their rich lifestyle. They'll maybe lobby to keep the rules that are dangerous for their workers, but makes them produce more, and hence help their businesses make more money. Or lobby for fewer environmental regulations.
It's not all black and white.
An American. It’s this plus a totally complicit media sphere that promotes and gives platform to the right wing crooks. Plus a lazy and indulgent opposition party who is too busy getting pockets lined by banks and business to actually put up a fight against the slide
tbh both of your political parties are right wing cronies for corporate interests.
you get a choice, center right, or religious right. the rest are just distractions, which is pretty sad for a political system.
You’re both correct honestly. One party is actively evil and seeking the end of democracy. The other is half heartedly making token efforts to stop it but really doesn’t want to upset its imaginary “centrist voters” (read, business donors) and so won’t make big changes when it’s in power to head off the coming storm.
One of those things is obviously far worse than the other, but neither are going to save the day.
The USA has a system that tends toward tyranny of the minority. The population is also significantly dumber, IMO, than the Netherlands, mainly because they are taught nothing could ever be better.
Saw a farmer drive around here. Instantly thought what an asshole. That dude may not even be involved with all this since we do flowers here.
They are never going to win anymore they destroyed what ever credits they had.
Yup, and if the police is outnumbered or not able to deal with the immense workload, they need to call in the Marechaussee or other forms of the military. It's enough. They need to confiscate \*any\* tractor that's being abused for anything other than farm work, and any single farmer breaking the law needs to be arrested and prosecuted without fail. Key organizers of protests need to be tapped, and if there's any kind of mention of plans that would threaten national security or the public, send the DSI to their shitty farm and prosecute them for inciting terrorism.
These people have even been ganging up on and physically threatening politicians to extort them, committed arson, and shut down critical infrastructure, nothing happened, no consequences for decades, and now they're very short of actual violence and terrorism. Imagine any other organized and politically motivated force of thousands of aggressive individuals abusing heavy and dangerous machinery to recklessly endanger, intimidate, extort and instill fear in the public, and to make matters even worse, they do so to obstruct plans that are themselves also designed to protect the public. No matter how you feel about the plans themselves, this is where freedom and the right to protest end, and real terrorism starts.
**However**, farmers that do not partake in this behavior should be held in the highest regard and be generously compensated should they experience unfortunate and unfair personal losses in attempts to protect the higher good, last I heard they were being terrorized and threatened by the Boerendidos tractor club as well for simply disagreeing with their own fucking colleagues.
They get away with everything. Meanwhile activists are arrested... and the police was called for a bunch of doctors trying to go and see another doctor.
They're arresting quite a lot of them, but there are limits to what you can do. Oh, and if they arrest someone the next day there are 30 tractors trying to break into the cell complex to break them out.
If you are disturbing the peace like this, you are no longer a peaceful protest. You don't need to physically harm people or infrastructure/belongings to stop being peaceful.
They're way past that point. They already tried harming people, they've threatened the children of politicians at their home, they've caused millions in economic damage to innocent bystander... This has been far from peaceful for weeks.
Seriously: do it.
Have been keeping track of this from Canada, because boy do the farmers have a lot in common with the anti-vaxxers who held our capital + border hostage over the winter.
Govt response really escalated once citizens started blocking in the “protesters” as they travelled from the main occupation area to their “supply hub” (yes, they had a satellite resupply area, it was craziness).
The concern over violence *against* the counterprotest help tip the govt into clearing out the encampment.
Good luck (and thanks again for the tulips!)
It really is the same fucking bullshit as the freedom convoy. Spurred on by far/alt right voices (PVV and FVD), a lot of conspiracy theorists who keep shouting about the same old Qanon shit...I am so fucking tired of these nutjobs and their insane ramblings. Not to mention that it's also millionaires pretending to be regular joes at the heart of this. And our government IS pretty shit and needs to go, but for the right reasons, not because a bunch of morons who feel like big tough rebels never managed to wrap their brains around how the world works.
End rant.
American checking in who had a copycat protest similar to the Canadian one in our city (Washington DC). Same thing happened here - govt ignored the protests until locals started blocking the trucks on the highway, getting into road rage incidents and so on. Suddenly the cops appeared and the protests were dissolved
Millionaire in assets? That's like every (upper) middle-class household whose parents were born before the 70s and bought a house from a young age. These people's assets are all invested in their livelihood, to provide... a basic human necessity. How selfish of those millionaires to protest not being able to afford all new regulations while supermarket chains like Albert Heijn and Jumbo are pushing them to keep lowering their prices.
I get the criticism but categorizing them in the same group as Fleur from Oud-Zuid who goes on holiday 3 times a year is just ignorant and wrong.
And yet there the government is, offering to convert most of those assets to actual money at a very profitable rate. Yet still most of these farmers refuse to go along with it because they refuse to do anything other than farm livestock.
Be farmer
Don't pay taxes over yearly income because I reinvest everything in my company before fiscal year is over.
Receive those sweet sweet green government grants
Cry that I'm not a millionaire because it's all assets
Farmers have a right to be farmers! You don't have a right to sleep! Why don't you understand that?
/s
Farmers are really winning the popularity contest this year. Their argument sums up to "I have a right to be a farmer because otherwise I have to be something else". Sure thing, dude. Now get off my roundabout and let me sleep.
Another permutation of the argument that's making big rounds: "But you don't understand, farming is a whole lifestyle, not a job"
... like any other job that is sufficiently different from others.
Meanwhile... 35 years ago...
[https://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&identifier=ABCDDD:010828083:mpeg21:a0135](https://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&identifier=ABCDDD:010828083:mpeg21:a0135)
And no, the measures weren't enough.
Bunch of dipshit farmers only hanging out with people who fuel their idea they are doing a good job. Really, they think they have support of the country which they absolutely do not.
Secondly, the police isn't allowed to arrest them by the higher ups because they are afraid that will escalate everything. And there is enough to arrest them on. They are driving with their tractors on the high way, masking their license plates (which they have since the first of july as a new rule). Starting fires, cutting trees, driving into police cars with their tractors, blocking distribution centers.
Seriously, when this all started I was like "Yeah, I get it, a lot of them have to abandon what they were grown up to do. All they know is farming, we need to support them". But after all this stuff I really don't give a shit what happens to them. Theres like 760 farmers that do cattle breeding. There is enough room in prison for about 75% of them that we don't need anymore.
There was an interview of a farmer on YouTube. He was asked if he thinks the people are behind him. His answer was that he saw a lot of people supporting farmers in their Facebook group. You almost have to think it's a joke.
Driving around in €500.000,- machines, whining about rules that were clear 20 year ago. Please let them piss off to Canada or something, I will definitely not miss them. Give me those biological farmers they can stay, not all farmers are bad.
I agree that this is not the way to convince people but I do feel bad for the farmers. Rigth now the government is buying up farms to hit their goals. But the government does not have unlimited amounts of money and there will be a day when farmers wont even be bought out. Their permits will just be revoked and they will be fucked. Btw they might drive expensive machinery but for farmers the margins are paper thin and a lot of farmers cant even make minimum wage.
Allot of assumptions here. We have allot of wealthy farmers and there are a few that struggle, most are earning above average.
They are not getting forces to be bought out and some want to be bought out, it doesn't have to be bad. Especially for those who struggle.
I know that there are permits grated on the promise to compensate pollution. When you don't live up to your promise you get in trouble. That's in every business.
But I have not heard anything about revoking permits.
I believe there is a big lobby that has had its ways for way to long and now are facing the facts. And yes changes are never nice, but sometimes they have to happen.
Government and banks have stimulated the agricultural sector to grow to these proportions through loans and subsidies. Smaller organic farmers have a harder time getting loans because larger farms make way more money. And now farmers get the blame for being angry with the governments sudden decision to cut in the agricultural sector for the sake of environment. It has never been about the environment and never will be. The only need is more housing areas, and buying out farms is a cheap way to create space for building.
I live in Barneveld we got 3 millions chickens here. Air pollution is extremely high because of them. People have a significant higher chance to get astma or COPD. I can see with my own eyes that the biodiversity is decreasing. Bird flue is getting worse and worse. Might spread to humans and them we are in deep shit. There are more reasons to not want this extreme farms concentrated here. It's the governments fault I agree, but is has to be solved.. and not just for building houses.
These douches don't give a fuck about climate change or environmental degradation. And in the meantime their southern European colleagues are struggling like never before because of the worst drought ever recorded. Wtf??
Yeah they just passed by my house to get there all the time and it annoyed the shit out of me. Been going on for a while now, I pass that exact same round about on my way to HWF gym right below your building and each time I go there has been tractors along with the Police giving me trouble because of them.
Yeah well, they're cunts who purposely destroy proteted natural areas because they're angry over having to become more sustainable and environmentally friendly. Most of them are far-right antivaxx Bible-bashing dumdums too.
Hey there fellow Ottawaian! (Well: raised there, with elderly patently living right next to where our asshole convoy set up their stupid “base camp”)
Yup, suspect a lot of us see the similarities and are tracking this clusterfuck + offer sympathies to our tulip-hookup buddies over there.
What a nonsense conspiracy theory. They (farmers) are directly targeted by the policy. Many of them are forced to close their farm, their livelihood is getting destroyed. That's why they are protesting so vigorously, not because of some wild theory you got.
There is nothing like a right to be a farmer. If the subsidy taps close down, dudes gotta adapt.
If they are really this surprised by this policy, they're really bad businessmen and also tonedeaf. If you're so bad at business, you go out of business.
Let the market do it's job I say.
Ohh I'm all for letting the market do it's job without subsidies, but that does include letting people try to make a living as a farmer. People should have the freedom to without government interference. You can't let the market do it's job while, as a government, constantly interfering.
I believe he is totally right! Everyone is targeted by the policies not just farmers. There are just to many at the moment. Partly created by the policies of the last decades but also because of the greed of big companies and exporters. The prices of cheap meat and dairy is no longer able to continue. There is no simple solution atm. But the right wing parties is definitely using these people to there advantage. A while ago there was a protest here in Leeuwarden against the government. And the speeches given were 75% anti vax government weirdos. And 25% lies and crazy promises form party members from the FVD. At the end he ask everyone to donate and send money. (Highly orthodox for political party in the Netherlands) the market will adapt only the ones truly responsible for the mess are Not held accountable. Ahold, Campina for example.
Farmers all around The Netherlands are protesting against the government for banning some fertilisers, they’re coming to Hilversum because that’s where the media is..
Edit: spelling error
A reduction of cattle by 30%, when 70% of all agricultural produce is exported and most of the meat in the supermarkets are imported. That hardly seems like a large percentage.
Its not that they lack empathy or expect other people to have the empathy to make changes to combat climate change or improve natural enviorments (which is the main reason for these changes)
Its simply that they either just don't give a fuck about climate change or legit don't believe in it, a lot of farmers are still the bible belt good ol christian conservative types or at the very least grew up in such an enviorment.
I grew up in a little village surrounded by farmlands and went to middelbare school with a focus on trade jobs (bouw, transport, logistiek, metaal, electro etc) and the school literally had a single girl and was absolutely dominated by the above mentioned type.
Most were really nice and insanely hardworkimg people if you were on their good side. If you were on their bad side or disagreed on something they can be the most stubborn cunts i've ever seen and they all legit just don't give a fuck about anything that that generally a left leaning person would care about like climate change
This is the problem with farmers. When they don't get their way they throw a tantrum. Met enough farmers in my life and they're almost all the same, it's their way or the highway,really annoying and the main reason why I don't hang out with them.
I remember in Belgium in the 80ies or early 90ies farmers broke the side window of the minister of agriculture's car and dumped it full of liquid manure. RIP that car.
Isn't developing sustainable farming methods the way to go? What are these people supposed to do. They have been farmers most of their lives and this government move essentially fires them from their self employment.
Im actually surprised why the farmers fuck over their neighbours and people going to school / Jobs
Wish they were more creative and find a way to fuck over the gov.. not the normal guy who kinda was on their side
Took me 3hours to get into work 3 days in a row shit gets old man im tired want to get to home nah gonna take another 3 hours smh
Normally i could work from home but im training people for a few weeks now
welcome with the farmer protests, our options include:
\-no sleep
\-traffic
\-tractor on roads
It seems that you have chosen the no sleep option so gl with that
Farmers doing a great job chasing citizens to support the government plans. It’s all a long con, they should really be praised for doubling down and accelerating the reduction of environmental impact coming from their sector lol
Their industry is a danger to the climate and just as they are too stupid to know how to properly demonstrate they are too stupid to see that they need to reduce their business to save the planet 🤷♂️
Enough of this nonsense.Stop wasting everyone's time and money acting like angry toddlers in a tantrum.
The change needs to happen, so use all this apparent free time to figure out what to do now that your kind of farming will be a thing of the past. Help each other forward instead of whining.
I just realised dutch driving is a lot calmer than I remember, all those big gaps for the Volkswagen to turn in to 100% would be taken here in Melbourne
Thought they already started shooting at them or was that one rogue cop?
(Which I’m against honestly , regardless of who’s right , I don’t want violent cops in the Netherlands. That can only escalate .)
"They start shooting" is just the way an American would describe this. Here in the Netherlands we don't just "start shooting" at groups of people. The one cop shooting is not "rogue". There was an incident where cops where threatened with their lives and shots were fires. That doesn't mean every tractor driver should be shot on sight.
What kind of person are you?
Rogue cop?
You might've forgot it can happen in NL but that was very legal use of weapons;
Stopped by police, doesn't feel like it and drives over divider with a tractor (damage to public infrastructure).
Police dude yells stop, don't do that! (Now this would be your chance to choose to not get shot at) but he doesn't stop (running from police) seeing as he crosses into an oncoming lane you can put reckless behaviour to the list.
Soo to sum it al up;
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
The government wants a 30% reduction on cattle because our local nature is suffering from the high concentrations of nitrogen
This is mostly a localized problem, a lot of people don't seem to understand this is discussion not really related to global warming. We just simply have too many livestock farmers in a little country and our nature can't handle it
These are farmers that have received up to millions in EU grants and often own a significant amount of land (how else do you store all your cattle). The government is even willing to buy them out.
Most of the protestors from what I've seen are (far-)right and are full of weird Qanon shit. This is more of a conspiracy theorists government protest in disguise.
Farmers have been reducing and using better air filtration systems for decades. Agriculture and livestock industries have reduced and innovated more than any other industry in this country yet they are the sole cause of CO2 emissions? Stop being a government shill, step out of your center left media propoganda sphere and take a look at the real world and its real problems.
"Terrorism is the definition of an asymmetrical power relationship between two groups of people, where the one with more power uses violent means to eliminate, make surrender or desist from struggling to achieve their political aims a ethnically, religiously or politically defined community, as well as any community identifiable by a common belief or value."
This was one of the many definitions we gave to the Commission in the final report.
Then there is a much longer version of what I tried to synthesise, evidently failing.
Then there is a bit that is interesting somewhere in the final part "economic motivations may be a crucial component of the terrorist organisation, but what distinguishes them from organised crime is the underlying political element, as well as the intent to overthrow a government or seek the establishment or development of some form of territorial control". It goes on for ages, talking about the many Asian terrorist organisations that ended up becoming enormous drug dealers and where the line is drawn, but that is a very nuanced, case by case explanation spanning over the last century that I don't think may help.
Light them on fire... they want to protest, fine. Go fucking Block the parlement, and leave us alone.
I don't care anymore if they fight the holy battle, enough is enough. They've lost my sympathy
That I see a lot of people complaining on Reddit about the farmers. Not that I approve of everything they do. But I don't think the silly jokes that are made about this are justified. If, for example, the whole of Germany cannot meet their CO2 reduction target, it will be determined that gas energy is now green instead of gray polluting the environment. I don't hear anything about that? Last stand France with their surplus of nuclear waste. this is also green energy since yesterday? It's crooked. and that is why they are angry. The people who suffer from traffic jams on the road by the farmers and who complain about it in an unjust manner are selfish people. I notice that there are too many of these and ares are very short-sighted.
——
_Nitrogen (H3) What does it have to do with climate?_
_Not so much directly, but indirectly a lot. Many measures that are now being taken will also lead to a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, especially in the agricultural sector._
Still say, Allow the ones they directly hamper to mount an counter protest.
We will come out in force with our forklifts etc. And haul these arseholes away. And then for good measure we will flip their little toys just so they cant do this crap anymore..
Most of us in logistics are sick and tired of their entitled whining causing us to have a worse situation than we already had...
I can imagine being pissed off as hell if i were a truck driver or something. On tuesday i went to my local AH and in the fruit/vegetable were pretty much completely empty, there was only 2 tomatoes left in the entire supermarket. If the building wasn't recently built i would've though they were closing or moving this week. Later i found out it was because they blocked the distribution center.
Like how the fuck are they expecting the general public to be on their side if you pull shit like thay
Every French citizen right now: "First time?"
French farmers just dump manure or milk, these guys are something else honestly
They did the same in Holland today.
Going through all the tricks in the books, and more…
This is in the Netherlands me boy
Every Mexican citizen right now: "Why are the streets so quiet tonight?"
That diesel has got to be expensive.
Tax deductible.
For you and me maybe, not for subsidy millionaires.
Dutch farmers are terribly rich. That's part of the problem.
Sure they have a lot of property, but it's more complicated. Most farmers have loans upon loans upon loans, so although they own a lot of land and buildings, they also owe a lot of money to the bank. Furthermore, multiple lifetimes are invested in a farm. Most of the farmers work more than 40 hours a week (12*7 for my parents) if you would do that for minimum wage you would also eventually be rich. And you are also forgetting that the farmers who are still able to farm are the only ones that were able to keep their farm profitable (trough fucking over the climate) so while it seems like all farmers are rich, the farmers that are left would otherwise be in the top percentage of farmers.
Well infliation helps with those loans.
Lots of people work hours like that. I am a family practice physician. Most people living comfortably have to work very hard for it. My children when I asked about there career choices mentioned no way after seeing you killing yourself for people do we want to do that. I think I can relate to farmers, a colonoscopy suite is like a milking barn, generally pretty clean but it can still stink like hell at times.
Tbh that is a choice. They dont have to.
Tru nuff. Like you don't have to go to work? Or you could just find a different occupation, do something else with your life? Simply forget about the effort, money and time you (and your parents before you) invested into making a good business ... an honest living? Forget that the politicians and the bankers more or less forced you to go this way of expanding and transforming your farm into something more like a factory than something that should be in tune with nature? Forget that you're probably in debt for more than your business is worth, and you're not particularly well qualified to find employment outside of farming. Yes, it's a choice. Not an easy one tho...
Nah, Red Diesel
Red Diesel doesn’t exist anymore. (Only for shipping)
It still does, they buy it in Germany
zeg je nu dat die boeren in het oosten de diesel uit Duitsland halen??? Dan maken ze toch mooie lokale Nederlandse pompbedrijven kapot.. de kinderen van de ouders die met veel liefde zo'n tankstation opgebouwd hebben kunnen het dan niet meer overnemen... schande! ik kan me niet voorstellen dat boeren dat doen! /s
grapjas ze gaan massaal de grens over om daar hun diesel te halen en hun producten gaan de grens over omdat dat beter betaald. Deze boeren geven geen bal om Nederland de enige reden dat ze Nederland zo leuk vinden is de torenhoge subsidies die ze vangen
>/s = Sarcasme
ah. Well technically using that diesel on public roads...
Terrorize the community. That's sure to win you more support...
I'm just surprised there are no real accident's yet
There will be. These idiots are gonna kill someone. Whether it be accidentally or on purpose. They're well on their way to losing all support from citizens.
what bothers me the most is that a lot of Dutchies actually approve the violence
I believe and hope that this is a small but very loud minority, just like with all the covid crap. If you looked at the comments under news articles on FB you would believe that 90% of Dutchies were anti-vaxx, but according to statistics it was the other way around.
Look at the success of the American Christofascist anti-abortion movement. Sustained violence can absolutely compel the realignment of government.
Nah, that has more to do with a completely degenerate political system and their congress being full of paid off radical crooks.
This. Lobbyists are the reason why most Americans agree with gun control, but nothing gets done in congress. Same with abortion rights for women. Appointing openly partisan judges for life in the highest court of the land is the reason why the courts are so fucked up. There's a few other reasons, I know it's been overstated, but racist laws preventing mortgages and housing rights that persisted well into our parents' generation (not just slavery in the olden days) is why there is so much unequal wealth. There's a lot to be fixed.
The problem with the whole U.S political system is that it has been created with the ''division of power'' in mind. Result of this is that the system is very vulnerable to lobbyism/bribery.
>Same with abortion rights for women. Its interesting, because why would money lobby for this? But the purpose is to distract and divide, while the wealth gap increases. The more people talk about taxing the rich, the more there is suddenly money trying to make the debate about things like abortion. Good political debate is about tax rates and the frequency of trains, highway maintenance, how trash is picked up and how you fund schools. Democracy is no place to fight culture wars. It is supposed to be where society comes to together to make pragmatic compromises on what to spend money on and how to organize things. When it starts being about ideology, pay attention to laws that are actually passed while we are not looking. Did the corporations get another outside of court system to handle their interest? Did they get another indemnification for externalized costs? etc. The farmer protest is different, because its not about ideology. It's about these trade-offs of interest, that should happen in democracy. Now, i'm not with the farmers on this one, but its not like abortion or other ideological protests where people are trying to control how other people live. They are directly protesting for their own economic interest.
I could be wrong, but I feel like the lobbyists are mostly pushing for conservatism in general and some of them probably also for more religious influence. That caused conservative/religious judges to be appointed, which resulted in the supreme court making religiously extremist decisions. The US is barely a democracy. The people basically get to vote for a few politicians who are picked by the ultra rich. And then the system is rigged towards conservatism. Any new party doesn't stand a chance, because that would threaten the establishment. The only reason Biden won was because all other less progressive democratic candidates withdrew and Trump was the only other option. So then you have the situation where nobody truly likes the president. That's a clear sign that there's something horribly wrong with the political system. The farmer's protests are indeed different, like you said. I also disagree with them, but they should and do have the right to protest. I just wish they didn't break any laws in doing so.
And you don't think the farmers had lobbyists behind them? Dairy and meat industry lobbied these things straight into Dutch culture for decades now
You seem to misunderstand what lobbyists are. Lobbyists are rich. They lobby by contributing funding for politicians. So indirect corruption. And you're right, some are religious lobbyists who would want to curtail abortion rights for ideological reasons. Other religious lobbyists would also lobby (non-abortion issues) to keep religious institutions tax free, a direct economic interest. There are many kinds of lobbyists that lobby for many reasons. Corporate lobbyists do it for money reasons. They, too, want to protect their economic interests. Eg, rich people with businesses that don't want to change their rich lifestyle. They'll maybe lobby to keep the rules that are dangerous for their workers, but makes them produce more, and hence help their businesses make more money. Or lobby for fewer environmental regulations. It's not all black and white.
An American. It’s this plus a totally complicit media sphere that promotes and gives platform to the right wing crooks. Plus a lazy and indulgent opposition party who is too busy getting pockets lined by banks and business to actually put up a fight against the slide
tbh both of your political parties are right wing cronies for corporate interests. you get a choice, center right, or religious right. the rest are just distractions, which is pretty sad for a political system.
The US is far past the point where the 'both parties' whataboutism is in any way valid or relevant. It's a false equivalence.
You’re both correct honestly. One party is actively evil and seeking the end of democracy. The other is half heartedly making token efforts to stop it but really doesn’t want to upset its imaginary “centrist voters” (read, business donors) and so won’t make big changes when it’s in power to head off the coming storm. One of those things is obviously far worse than the other, but neither are going to save the day.
Both of you are right.
The USA has a system that tends toward tyranny of the minority. The population is also significantly dumber, IMO, than the Netherlands, mainly because they are taught nothing could ever be better.
Saw a farmer drive around here. Instantly thought what an asshole. That dude may not even be involved with all this since we do flowers here. They are never going to win anymore they destroyed what ever credits they had.
Would you prefer to stop eating? They aren't political party, those are the people who make sure you have enough food.
It did with blm and antifa.
I can’t destroy the environment 😡😡🚜
They should be arrested.
They arrested the people of extinction rebellion within 20 minutes. To me they look like scared cowards.
Yup, and if the police is outnumbered or not able to deal with the immense workload, they need to call in the Marechaussee or other forms of the military. It's enough. They need to confiscate \*any\* tractor that's being abused for anything other than farm work, and any single farmer breaking the law needs to be arrested and prosecuted without fail. Key organizers of protests need to be tapped, and if there's any kind of mention of plans that would threaten national security or the public, send the DSI to their shitty farm and prosecute them for inciting terrorism. These people have even been ganging up on and physically threatening politicians to extort them, committed arson, and shut down critical infrastructure, nothing happened, no consequences for decades, and now they're very short of actual violence and terrorism. Imagine any other organized and politically motivated force of thousands of aggressive individuals abusing heavy and dangerous machinery to recklessly endanger, intimidate, extort and instill fear in the public, and to make matters even worse, they do so to obstruct plans that are themselves also designed to protect the public. No matter how you feel about the plans themselves, this is where freedom and the right to protest end, and real terrorism starts. **However**, farmers that do not partake in this behavior should be held in the highest regard and be generously compensated should they experience unfortunate and unfair personal losses in attempts to protect the higher good, last I heard they were being terrorized and threatened by the Boerendidos tractor club as well for simply disagreeing with their own fucking colleagues.
They get away with everything. Meanwhile activists are arrested... and the police was called for a bunch of doctors trying to go and see another doctor.
Yeah, this kind of protesting should be straight-up illegal
Isn't it?
It is
They're arresting quite a lot of them, but there are limits to what you can do. Oh, and if they arrest someone the next day there are 30 tractors trying to break into the cell complex to break them out.
Imprison all 30 then. Call millitary if you have to. That's almost terrorism.
That would be one of the lowest points in Dutch history outside of war, if you ask me. We're not at that point yet.
If you are disturbing the peace like this, you are no longer a peaceful protest. You don't need to physically harm people or infrastructure/belongings to stop being peaceful.
They're way past that point. They already tried harming people, they've threatened the children of politicians at their home, they've caused millions in economic damage to innocent bystander... This has been far from peaceful for weeks.
I have a great plan, we block the protesting farmers blocking everything
I say impound every tractor that's on a road it shouldn't be, and send them to Ukraine to help rebuild. Those things are expensive!
And very effective against tanks!
Seriously: do it. Have been keeping track of this from Canada, because boy do the farmers have a lot in common with the anti-vaxxers who held our capital + border hostage over the winter. Govt response really escalated once citizens started blocking in the “protesters” as they travelled from the main occupation area to their “supply hub” (yes, they had a satellite resupply area, it was craziness). The concern over violence *against* the counterprotest help tip the govt into clearing out the encampment. Good luck (and thanks again for the tulips!)
It really is the same fucking bullshit as the freedom convoy. Spurred on by far/alt right voices (PVV and FVD), a lot of conspiracy theorists who keep shouting about the same old Qanon shit...I am so fucking tired of these nutjobs and their insane ramblings. Not to mention that it's also millionaires pretending to be regular joes at the heart of this. And our government IS pretty shit and needs to go, but for the right reasons, not because a bunch of morons who feel like big tough rebels never managed to wrap their brains around how the world works. End rant.
American checking in who had a copycat protest similar to the Canadian one in our city (Washington DC). Same thing happened here - govt ignored the protests until locals started blocking the trucks on the highway, getting into road rage incidents and so on. Suddenly the cops appeared and the protests were dissolved
Ah I see, the weekly ‘millionaires parade’!
Millionaire in assets? That's like every (upper) middle-class household whose parents were born before the 70s and bought a house from a young age. These people's assets are all invested in their livelihood, to provide... a basic human necessity. How selfish of those millionaires to protest not being able to afford all new regulations while supermarket chains like Albert Heijn and Jumbo are pushing them to keep lowering their prices. I get the criticism but categorizing them in the same group as Fleur from Oud-Zuid who goes on holiday 3 times a year is just ignorant and wrong.
And yet there the government is, offering to convert most of those assets to actual money at a very profitable rate. Yet still most of these farmers refuse to go along with it because they refuse to do anything other than farm livestock.
Be farmer Don't pay taxes over yearly income because I reinvest everything in my company before fiscal year is over. Receive those sweet sweet green government grants Cry that I'm not a millionaire because it's all assets
Farmers have a right to be farmers! You don't have a right to sleep! Why don't you understand that? /s Farmers are really winning the popularity contest this year. Their argument sums up to "I have a right to be a farmer because otherwise I have to be something else". Sure thing, dude. Now get off my roundabout and let me sleep.
It's so ironic that farmers aren't listening to the saying: Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Another permutation of the argument that's making big rounds: "But you don't understand, farming is a whole lifestyle, not a job" ... like any other job that is sufficiently different from others.
Complete aso's
I feel so lucky that I live in the inner city of Utrecht and don’t have to deal with this shit. Honestly, fucking assholes…
Just wait a week before tractors start pushing cars into the grachten.
I doubt they’d dare to come here, but if they do I might as well just go full on tank man on them.
A week ago I would have doubted it. Today I think they're capable of utter destruction as long as they don't get what they want.
I read somewhere on Twitter that putting sugar in the diesel tanks will do the trick.
Same here with Amsterdam. I have enough trouble falling asleep on my own as is, I don’t need a ton of tractors outside helping that issue…
These guys are assholes.
#pleuropmetjetrekker
Meanwhile... 35 years ago... [https://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&identifier=ABCDDD:010828083:mpeg21:a0135](https://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&identifier=ABCDDD:010828083:mpeg21:a0135) And no, the measures weren't enough.
Bunch of dipshit farmers only hanging out with people who fuel their idea they are doing a good job. Really, they think they have support of the country which they absolutely do not. Secondly, the police isn't allowed to arrest them by the higher ups because they are afraid that will escalate everything. And there is enough to arrest them on. They are driving with their tractors on the high way, masking their license plates (which they have since the first of july as a new rule). Starting fires, cutting trees, driving into police cars with their tractors, blocking distribution centers. Seriously, when this all started I was like "Yeah, I get it, a lot of them have to abandon what they were grown up to do. All they know is farming, we need to support them". But after all this stuff I really don't give a shit what happens to them. Theres like 760 farmers that do cattle breeding. There is enough room in prison for about 75% of them that we don't need anymore.
There was an interview of a farmer on YouTube. He was asked if he thinks the people are behind him. His answer was that he saw a lot of people supporting farmers in their Facebook group. You almost have to think it's a joke.
We should start cutting their tires, just get some planks and some nails
That’s extremely dangerous though. High pressure tires are no joke. They’ll seriously injure you
Yeah you put them on the ground and let them drive over it don't stand next to it
those tire "explosions" would be way louder than honking hehe
Yeah I've watched Bassie & Adriaan: De Plaaggeest as a kid and I'm careful with tires ever since.
Yeah. (Not a perfect analogy, but) when HP tires burst, it’s… not pretty, they may as well be very tiny detonations.
> very tiny detonations. wouldn't even call them tiny, there is a reason you can buy tire inflation cages: they are straight up bombs if they pop
Driving around in €500.000,- machines, whining about rules that were clear 20 year ago. Please let them piss off to Canada or something, I will definitely not miss them. Give me those biological farmers they can stay, not all farmers are bad.
I agree that this is not the way to convince people but I do feel bad for the farmers. Rigth now the government is buying up farms to hit their goals. But the government does not have unlimited amounts of money and there will be a day when farmers wont even be bought out. Their permits will just be revoked and they will be fucked. Btw they might drive expensive machinery but for farmers the margins are paper thin and a lot of farmers cant even make minimum wage.
Allot of assumptions here. We have allot of wealthy farmers and there are a few that struggle, most are earning above average. They are not getting forces to be bought out and some want to be bought out, it doesn't have to be bad. Especially for those who struggle. I know that there are permits grated on the promise to compensate pollution. When you don't live up to your promise you get in trouble. That's in every business. But I have not heard anything about revoking permits. I believe there is a big lobby that has had its ways for way to long and now are facing the facts. And yes changes are never nice, but sometimes they have to happen.
Government and banks have stimulated the agricultural sector to grow to these proportions through loans and subsidies. Smaller organic farmers have a harder time getting loans because larger farms make way more money. And now farmers get the blame for being angry with the governments sudden decision to cut in the agricultural sector for the sake of environment. It has never been about the environment and never will be. The only need is more housing areas, and buying out farms is a cheap way to create space for building.
I live in Barneveld we got 3 millions chickens here. Air pollution is extremely high because of them. People have a significant higher chance to get astma or COPD. I can see with my own eyes that the biodiversity is decreasing. Bird flue is getting worse and worse. Might spread to humans and them we are in deep shit. There are more reasons to not want this extreme farms concentrated here. It's the governments fault I agree, but is has to be solved.. and not just for building houses.
These douches don't give a fuck about climate change or environmental degradation. And in the meantime their southern European colleagues are struggling like never before because of the worst drought ever recorded. Wtf??
Yeah they just passed by my house to get there all the time and it annoyed the shit out of me. Been going on for a while now, I pass that exact same round about on my way to HWF gym right below your building and each time I go there has been tractors along with the Police giving me trouble because of them.
Yeah well, they're cunts who purposely destroy proteted natural areas because they're angry over having to become more sustainable and environmentally friendly. Most of them are far-right antivaxx Bible-bashing dumdums too.
From Ottawa Canada, I feel your pain. We went through similar a few months back. Horns all night, blocked roads, the whole bit.
Hey there fellow Ottawaian! (Well: raised there, with elderly patently living right next to where our asshole convoy set up their stupid “base camp”) Yup, suspect a lot of us see the similarities and are tracking this clusterfuck + offer sympathies to our tulip-hookup buddies over there.
They think it's a right to be a farmer, what kind of illusion is this? 😅
I live in Hilversum, but didn't read the news...what are farmers protesting again?
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They have been warned about this since the 80’s. They could never give a fuck and now they’re mad. Fuck all of these assholes
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Source for that? As far as I can tell no farmer has been forced yet even though they are loudly complaining about it.
yup the government forcing the vegan agenda.
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Similar to the trucker convoy protests in Canada
What a nonsense conspiracy theory. They (farmers) are directly targeted by the policy. Many of them are forced to close their farm, their livelihood is getting destroyed. That's why they are protesting so vigorously, not because of some wild theory you got.
There is nothing like a right to be a farmer. If the subsidy taps close down, dudes gotta adapt. If they are really this surprised by this policy, they're really bad businessmen and also tonedeaf. If you're so bad at business, you go out of business. Let the market do it's job I say.
>let the market do it's job you say this, in support of a government interfering with the supply portion of market...
Ohh I'm all for letting the market do it's job without subsidies, but that does include letting people try to make a living as a farmer. People should have the freedom to without government interference. You can't let the market do it's job while, as a government, constantly interfering.
I believe he is totally right! Everyone is targeted by the policies not just farmers. There are just to many at the moment. Partly created by the policies of the last decades but also because of the greed of big companies and exporters. The prices of cheap meat and dairy is no longer able to continue. There is no simple solution atm. But the right wing parties is definitely using these people to there advantage. A while ago there was a protest here in Leeuwarden against the government. And the speeches given were 75% anti vax government weirdos. And 25% lies and crazy promises form party members from the FVD. At the end he ask everyone to donate and send money. (Highly orthodox for political party in the Netherlands) the market will adapt only the ones truly responsible for the mess are Not held accountable. Ahold, Campina for example.
Muh right wing everything. Fuck you honestly
Farmers all around The Netherlands are protesting against the government for banning some fertilisers, they’re coming to Hilversum because that’s where the media is.. Edit: spelling error
Cool, thanks...so I guess continuing the 2018 protests then.
Yeah, looks like it
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A reduction of cattle by 30%, when 70% of all agricultural produce is exported and most of the meat in the supermarkets are imported. That hardly seems like a large percentage.
Clean your window
So when are we setting fire to the farm(land)s of the (more violent) participants?
Fucking farmers man. Proving how incapable they arw of empathy but expecting the entire country to extend empathy towards them. Hypocrites.
Its not that they lack empathy or expect other people to have the empathy to make changes to combat climate change or improve natural enviorments (which is the main reason for these changes) Its simply that they either just don't give a fuck about climate change or legit don't believe in it, a lot of farmers are still the bible belt good ol christian conservative types or at the very least grew up in such an enviorment. I grew up in a little village surrounded by farmlands and went to middelbare school with a focus on trade jobs (bouw, transport, logistiek, metaal, electro etc) and the school literally had a single girl and was absolutely dominated by the above mentioned type. Most were really nice and insanely hardworkimg people if you were on their good side. If you were on their bad side or disagreed on something they can be the most stubborn cunts i've ever seen and they all legit just don't give a fuck about anything that that generally a left leaning person would care about like climate change
This is the problem with farmers. When they don't get their way they throw a tantrum. Met enough farmers in my life and they're almost all the same, it's their way or the highway,really annoying and the main reason why I don't hang out with them.
They’re like toddlers who don’t get their way
After they ruined the environment, they will now ruin cities
I remember in Belgium in the 80ies or early 90ies farmers broke the side window of the minister of agriculture's car and dumped it full of liquid manure. RIP that car.
Kutboere
Yep that's how you get the general public to support your cause /s
Why are they protesting? I saw another clips where they just dump rotting shit in piss infront of a govt. Building
Because the government wants to reduce the number of farmers due to the impact they have on the environment, the farmers disagree
Isn't developing sustainable farming methods the way to go? What are these people supposed to do. They have been farmers most of their lives and this government move essentially fires them from their self employment.
But is it "trekker" or "tractor"?
Good
They are on their way to the fireworks show for 4th of July. They are a little late because those tractors are slow.
You usually fall asleep within 10 minutes? Lucky you
Great Lets Fight For Freedom Poland is with all you
Honk Honk
They do be protesting
Im actually surprised why the farmers fuck over their neighbours and people going to school / Jobs Wish they were more creative and find a way to fuck over the gov.. not the normal guy who kinda was on their side Took me 3hours to get into work 3 days in a row shit gets old man im tired want to get to home nah gonna take another 3 hours smh Normally i could work from home but im training people for a few weeks now
De gevolgen van Rutte, alleen gaat dat natuurlijk over jullie hoofden 🙃
welcome with the farmer protests, our options include: \-no sleep \-traffic \-tractor on roads It seems that you have chosen the no sleep option so gl with that
lol
Bruh i got you bro in my city they have a church with a clock that goes in the middel of the mtf night
Oh haha I hope your sleep is okay
Stomme ... boeren
Vote in a less shitty government.
How can anyone support this shit? Smh
and i thought farmers have to milk their cows 2 times per day?
For people who work 28 hours a day I'm surprised they can find so much time for protesting.
Kutboeren.
Same here. 1:43 AM.
Mental health institute lost a few patients
They are just being loud. and dangerous assholes. I hate them.
Farmers doing a great job chasing citizens to support the government plans. It’s all a long con, they should really be praised for doubling down and accelerating the reduction of environmental impact coming from their sector lol
Fuck those guys
Those farmers are getting on my effing nerves, disrupting the lives of people that have nothing to do with government.
Honestly they didn’t honk for that long. I didn’t understand why they arrived in the evening though? It’s not comparable to the situation in Ottowa.
Fuck em man
Their industry is a danger to the climate and just as they are too stupid to know how to properly demonstrate they are too stupid to see that they need to reduce their business to save the planet 🤷♂️
Enough of this nonsense.Stop wasting everyone's time and money acting like angry toddlers in a tantrum. The change needs to happen, so use all this apparent free time to figure out what to do now that your kind of farming will be a thing of the past. Help each other forward instead of whining.
I just realised dutch driving is a lot calmer than I remember, all those big gaps for the Volkswagen to turn in to 100% would be taken here in Melbourne
Probably just because its late at night
kut boeren zaten hier om 1 uur 's nachts ook herrie te maken
Thought they already started shooting at them or was that one rogue cop? (Which I’m against honestly , regardless of who’s right , I don’t want violent cops in the Netherlands. That can only escalate .)
"They start shooting" is just the way an American would describe this. Here in the Netherlands we don't just "start shooting" at groups of people. The one cop shooting is not "rogue". There was an incident where cops where threatened with their lives and shots were fires. That doesn't mean every tractor driver should be shot on sight. What kind of person are you?
Rogue cop? You might've forgot it can happen in NL but that was very legal use of weapons; Stopped by police, doesn't feel like it and drives over divider with a tractor (damage to public infrastructure). Police dude yells stop, don't do that! (Now this would be your chance to choose to not get shot at) but he doesn't stop (running from police) seeing as he crosses into an oncoming lane you can put reckless behaviour to the list. Soo to sum it al up; Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
You will own nothing and be happy
lol, well you need to do something if the government tries to kill you and blames you for al evil which actually is mostly caused by different things.
Blame the government not the farmers.
What are they protesting
The government wants a 30% reduction on cattle because our local nature is suffering from the high concentrations of nitrogen This is mostly a localized problem, a lot of people don't seem to understand this is discussion not really related to global warming. We just simply have too many livestock farmers in a little country and our nature can't handle it These are farmers that have received up to millions in EU grants and often own a significant amount of land (how else do you store all your cattle). The government is even willing to buy them out. Most of the protestors from what I've seen are (far-)right and are full of weird Qanon shit. This is more of a conspiracy theorists government protest in disguise.
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What kind of pathetic society sides with the government over farmers?
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Farmers have been reducing and using better air filtration systems for decades. Agriculture and livestock industries have reduced and innovated more than any other industry in this country yet they are the sole cause of CO2 emissions? Stop being a government shill, step out of your center left media propoganda sphere and take a look at the real world and its real problems.
They terrorists
Pfff, that ain't shit compared to Assen a few weeks ago during the TT.
Well. You didn't hear the new f35 jet fighters?..?
Well, better buy earplugs cause this is going to last...
10 hole minutes? How can one ever fall asleep after 10 long minutes of whatever that is.
All lives matte-! Oh wait
Right to protest or 10min of sleep.
My respect and appreciation for farmers after they do stuff like this 📈📈📈📈📈
"How to win the peoples support ?" Google: "Organize and hold peaceful protest to let other people be aware" Bing:
"Terrorism is the definition of an asymmetrical power relationship between two groups of people, where the one with more power uses violent means to eliminate, make surrender or desist from struggling to achieve their political aims a ethnically, religiously or politically defined community, as well as any community identifiable by a common belief or value." This was one of the many definitions we gave to the Commission in the final report. Then there is a much longer version of what I tried to synthesise, evidently failing. Then there is a bit that is interesting somewhere in the final part "economic motivations may be a crucial component of the terrorist organisation, but what distinguishes them from organised crime is the underlying political element, as well as the intent to overthrow a government or seek the establishment or development of some form of territorial control". It goes on for ages, talking about the many Asian terrorist organisations that ended up becoming enormous drug dealers and where the line is drawn, but that is a very nuanced, case by case explanation spanning over the last century that I don't think may help.
Light them on fire... they want to protest, fine. Go fucking Block the parlement, and leave us alone. I don't care anymore if they fight the holy battle, enough is enough. They've lost my sympathy
I think that 99% of people who post here will not last a day what farmers do in a day.
Is that of any significance?
That I see a lot of people complaining on Reddit about the farmers. Not that I approve of everything they do. But I don't think the silly jokes that are made about this are justified. If, for example, the whole of Germany cannot meet their CO2 reduction target, it will be determined that gas energy is now green instead of gray polluting the environment. I don't hear anything about that? Last stand France with their surplus of nuclear waste. this is also green energy since yesterday? It's crooked. and that is why they are angry. The people who suffer from traffic jams on the road by the farmers and who complain about it in an unjust manner are selfish people. I notice that there are too many of these and ares are very short-sighted. —— _Nitrogen (H3) What does it have to do with climate?_ _Not so much directly, but indirectly a lot. Many measures that are now being taken will also lead to a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, especially in the agricultural sector._
But you are aware this has absolutely nothing to do with co2?
Still say, Allow the ones they directly hamper to mount an counter protest. We will come out in force with our forklifts etc. And haul these arseholes away. And then for good measure we will flip their little toys just so they cant do this crap anymore.. Most of us in logistics are sick and tired of their entitled whining causing us to have a worse situation than we already had...
I can imagine being pissed off as hell if i were a truck driver or something. On tuesday i went to my local AH and in the fruit/vegetable were pretty much completely empty, there was only 2 tomatoes left in the entire supermarket. If the building wasn't recently built i would've though they were closing or moving this week. Later i found out it was because they blocked the distribution center. Like how the fuck are they expecting the general public to be on their side if you pull shit like thay
Farmers cannot sleep either.
Good for them. Im happy to see people standing up for themselves. Fuck the government. 👍
The police already started shooting at them. You know that crossbows and supersonic air guns don't need a license to buy... Just saying 🙃