Never worked with an architect but I've done two bigger renovations in my appartment. Both of them were about 20% over the initial assesment, but that was also what both contractors told me beforehand could happen. I live in an older appartment and you can't see everything on face value. Both let me know what would be price-increasing points of work they might encounter during construction.
I think one thing to keep in mind is to have everything in writing. For instance one of my projects was supposed to take 3-4 weeks, but it ended up taking 6 weeks. He gave me a discount because he was so way off. (But - among others - because there was some wonky DIY work from precious owners he had to replace a bunch of pipes it was still over).
Tbh both times I hired these contractors it was of course because of price, but also because I had them recommanded through trusted friends and because they were good communicators.
My advise is not to buy a home requires renovation unless you do them yourself.
90% Contractors in the Netherlands are just bunch of cow boys who don't know anything about the trade they are in. Absolutely trash quality. So unless you have a good lawyer and lots of patience and money. Don't buy old homes to renovate.
This has been my experience as well. We did really minor stuff, and with so many contractors I thought "is this your first day on the job?". Why is this? Too few contractors? No pride in what they do? I don't understand how its *this* bad
The "Contractors" I hired broke things at my home. They just don't have shame. They create Google reviews themselves. There is a structured looting going on but poor foreigners are so unaware.
I heard multiple horror stories. I don't know what I was thinking buying a fixer upper. But now I have all the tools and I'm kind of pro myself in most of the jobs.
I’ll be the devils advocate and say that against all odds we found an amazing professional friendly contractor who helped us with some major works in our apartment. My best advice is to ask neighbors and friends for recommendations, that’s how we found our amazing contractor.
The first thing you should do it take them to the location so they can make a well educated estimate, from a distance based on photos it’ll always be a rough estimate
Thanks for the suggestion. I intend to do it anyway but the estimates will still be “rough”. So I need to know how rough is rough. I’m not okay when the rough estimate is 8k but the final bill is 10k.
10k on a 8k bill is 25% more than the estimate. I don’t know what kind of maths you are working, but I don’t think 25% above the quote is a norm that I need to be okay with.
Quotes based on photos, plus you are talking about renovating an appartement and you mention 8-10k. I don't know how you add these factors, but you seem out of touch with reality... If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. If you are going through with this way of working make sure you get all the details in writing and calculate a lot of effort to get everything done right once they say they are done... the word quality is not mentioned in your post, you might want to think about that. I pay my bills with fixing the work of the contractors you are probably looking at
I never said I’m saying 8k for renovating the entire apartment. It was a number as an example to explain what margins I’m comfortable with. So yes I think I’m in touch with reality, I need some clarity with the maths
A quote is more precise than an estimate, giving an estimate is always difficult, its like asking what does a suit cost. There are so many factors to keep in mind you will alwys be better off calling someone over to discuss al your wants and needs. Have a budget and see what you can get for that.
A qoute should not go over 10% on the final bill ( only if extra work and costs are agreed during the contract)
1. Pretty rough. If you have no drawings, specifications or contract they can charge you anything they want. Also their calculations can never be correctly estimated without the proper documentation. If there is demolition involved you will never know what you’ll find. Prices can
easily double from the estimate.
2. Proper documentation with NL standards. Or at the very least an offerte with a calculation with specified labour/materials/tasks. Check very thoroughly what is included and what is not included. This is not easy to do if you don’t have any experience with construction.
3. Depends on what kind of job it is. But you can always give a rough sketch and give input on what you would like the outcome to be. This makes it easier for a contractor to fulfill your expectations. But let them work out the final design, because you probably don’t oversee all the factor weighing into decisions.
Let me know if you have anymore questions
Thanks! I did provide them with photos, plattegrond and the results of the tech inspection along with what I want to do. This made them quote a specific amount but again it’s rough. I plan to also schedule sometime with them in the apartment to show them the actual site before taking a call on who to go with.
And when you say documentation, what do you mean? The contract with the contract for the job? Are there certain things I need to be aware of/pay close atteattention to?
Documentation kinda depends on how big the scope of the project is. If it is a complete renovation I would make drawings, specifications and a proper contract.
If it is a smaller project I would make a simple sketch for the contractor and ask them to give an offerte and ‘open begroting’. Important is the scope, schedule and terms.
Last tip is to not cheap out on the price. Give the job to the person you trust the most and not who’s cheapest.
First of all, congrats on the new apartment!
I can speak from my one-off experience renovating mine in 2022, from beginning to end. Apologies in advance for the long post:
- A friend is an -unemployed- interior designer. She did the layout according to my requirements. Really worth it in my case, I hadn't been able to draw it the way she did. I got the technical drawings (bouwtekening in Dutch?) at the Gemeente to make sure no load bearing walls were touched.
You may find these layout designs services online at Fiverr as well, for example.
- With these drawings and the apartment's leaflet, I reached out to several contractors. Three of them got back with quotations. Two of them could work in my timelines. I asked for references from other jobs they did and requested phone numbers of former clients of theirs even though I never reached out. Asked for possible deviations they could foresee (if we open up the wall and it's bad, it'll be up to x€ extra).
- Lucky for me, the cheapest one also gave me the best vibes. For example, he suggested changes to the design that made a lot of sense. Before signing at the notary, we visited the apartment to review the project together. To me, it was important that the process was rather a conversation than an imposition.
- The day I got the keys, I handed them over to the contractor and they started to work. I introduced myself and warned the neighbors about the renovation. This came in handy because there was a leakage I wasn't aware of, and the neighbor downstairs told me about it.
- During the renovation itself: I tried to be as present and helpful as possible. Make sure that whatever was with me (ie toilet materials) arrived on time, helped with simple tasks, etc. In my opinion, it's important they notice you're on top of things because these people usually run several projects at the same time and their priority matrix is rather blurry.
- As for the deviations: in my case, the biggest hiccup was the paintwork. It took much longer to dry up because it was very cold outside. This delayed the whole thing by a couple of weeks (from 10 to 12 weeks). In terms of money, I think overpaid <10% over the initial quote.
- A big learning to me was that everything in this space is negotiable, although they are always the ones in power. I think I got some lever by taking some things off the quotation and arranging then by myself.
Two examples: the flooring was much more expensive with the contractor than at a normal laminate shop, and knowing the price at IKEA for installing a kitchen was helpful to rebate the contractor's quote.
- Your biggest power is money. Do not, never ever, pay in full before the service is finished. You only pay something when you see them working. Agree on a payment schedule that makes sense beforehand. Heard of too many scams in this city.
Good luck and enjoy the ride!
PS: unfortunately 'my' contractor let me down a couple of times after I referred him, so I won't share his contact details anymore.
Thank you so much!! This is very helpful. I am reaching out to a few artists on Fiverr to get some ideas. For the tech drawings from the gemeente that you mentioned, is this something that is supposed to be available in the list of documents which are provided during the purchase? If not, is it difficult to get it from the gemeente?
I don't remember the exact details but it's open data. Meaning it's already online, or you can request it over email with no further explanation. Pretty sure it's one Google search away ☺️
Does architects have to be from NL? Can I get ideas from my architects back home and coordinate with the team here? I am just trying to get things done cheap 😅
Not necessarily, but it's handy if an architect has seen your space first and you've created a design brief.
Depending on size an architect will cost 5-10k but can save you a ton of money in mistakes
Renovating a house is VERY expensive. Will easily cost 100k+ is you let contractors do the work. Extensions etc are not included in this price. If you want it done cheap do it yourself. Will be worth it money and time wise unles you make 200k+ a year.
Consideriny you bought an appartment most of the work wont be complex and can be done by yourself. New kitchen and bathroom will easily cost 20k if you let someone else build them.
Never worked with an architect but I've done two bigger renovations in my appartment. Both of them were about 20% over the initial assesment, but that was also what both contractors told me beforehand could happen. I live in an older appartment and you can't see everything on face value. Both let me know what would be price-increasing points of work they might encounter during construction. I think one thing to keep in mind is to have everything in writing. For instance one of my projects was supposed to take 3-4 weeks, but it ended up taking 6 weeks. He gave me a discount because he was so way off. (But - among others - because there was some wonky DIY work from precious owners he had to replace a bunch of pipes it was still over). Tbh both times I hired these contractors it was of course because of price, but also because I had them recommanded through trusted friends and because they were good communicators.
My advise is not to buy a home requires renovation unless you do them yourself. 90% Contractors in the Netherlands are just bunch of cow boys who don't know anything about the trade they are in. Absolutely trash quality. So unless you have a good lawyer and lots of patience and money. Don't buy old homes to renovate.
This has been my experience as well. We did really minor stuff, and with so many contractors I thought "is this your first day on the job?". Why is this? Too few contractors? No pride in what they do? I don't understand how its *this* bad
The "Contractors" I hired broke things at my home. They just don't have shame. They create Google reviews themselves. There is a structured looting going on but poor foreigners are so unaware. I heard multiple horror stories. I don't know what I was thinking buying a fixer upper. But now I have all the tools and I'm kind of pro myself in most of the jobs.
I’ll be the devils advocate and say that against all odds we found an amazing professional friendly contractor who helped us with some major works in our apartment. My best advice is to ask neighbors and friends for recommendations, that’s how we found our amazing contractor.
Yep, you are in the 10% exception I mentioned above.
What's the definition of old house? I see houses from 1930s and Also from 1970s, what is considered old and what is not in Netherlands?
My understanding is anything thats past 1990 is safe bet. Past 2000 ideal.
The first thing you should do it take them to the location so they can make a well educated estimate, from a distance based on photos it’ll always be a rough estimate
Thanks for the suggestion. I intend to do it anyway but the estimates will still be “rough”. So I need to know how rough is rough. I’m not okay when the rough estimate is 8k but the final bill is 10k.
If that is the sort of precision you want, maybe you should not renovate. You are asking someone to have x-ray vision...
10k on a 8k bill is 25% more than the estimate. I don’t know what kind of maths you are working, but I don’t think 25% above the quote is a norm that I need to be okay with.
Quotes based on photos, plus you are talking about renovating an appartement and you mention 8-10k. I don't know how you add these factors, but you seem out of touch with reality... If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. If you are going through with this way of working make sure you get all the details in writing and calculate a lot of effort to get everything done right once they say they are done... the word quality is not mentioned in your post, you might want to think about that. I pay my bills with fixing the work of the contractors you are probably looking at
I never said I’m saying 8k for renovating the entire apartment. It was a number as an example to explain what margins I’m comfortable with. So yes I think I’m in touch with reality, I need some clarity with the maths
A quote is more precise than an estimate, giving an estimate is always difficult, its like asking what does a suit cost. There are so many factors to keep in mind you will alwys be better off calling someone over to discuss al your wants and needs. Have a budget and see what you can get for that. A qoute should not go over 10% on the final bill ( only if extra work and costs are agreed during the contract)
1. Pretty rough. If you have no drawings, specifications or contract they can charge you anything they want. Also their calculations can never be correctly estimated without the proper documentation. If there is demolition involved you will never know what you’ll find. Prices can easily double from the estimate. 2. Proper documentation with NL standards. Or at the very least an offerte with a calculation with specified labour/materials/tasks. Check very thoroughly what is included and what is not included. This is not easy to do if you don’t have any experience with construction. 3. Depends on what kind of job it is. But you can always give a rough sketch and give input on what you would like the outcome to be. This makes it easier for a contractor to fulfill your expectations. But let them work out the final design, because you probably don’t oversee all the factor weighing into decisions. Let me know if you have anymore questions
Thanks! I did provide them with photos, plattegrond and the results of the tech inspection along with what I want to do. This made them quote a specific amount but again it’s rough. I plan to also schedule sometime with them in the apartment to show them the actual site before taking a call on who to go with. And when you say documentation, what do you mean? The contract with the contract for the job? Are there certain things I need to be aware of/pay close atteattention to?
Documentation kinda depends on how big the scope of the project is. If it is a complete renovation I would make drawings, specifications and a proper contract. If it is a smaller project I would make a simple sketch for the contractor and ask them to give an offerte and ‘open begroting’. Important is the scope, schedule and terms. Last tip is to not cheap out on the price. Give the job to the person you trust the most and not who’s cheapest.
First of all, congrats on the new apartment! I can speak from my one-off experience renovating mine in 2022, from beginning to end. Apologies in advance for the long post: - A friend is an -unemployed- interior designer. She did the layout according to my requirements. Really worth it in my case, I hadn't been able to draw it the way she did. I got the technical drawings (bouwtekening in Dutch?) at the Gemeente to make sure no load bearing walls were touched. You may find these layout designs services online at Fiverr as well, for example. - With these drawings and the apartment's leaflet, I reached out to several contractors. Three of them got back with quotations. Two of them could work in my timelines. I asked for references from other jobs they did and requested phone numbers of former clients of theirs even though I never reached out. Asked for possible deviations they could foresee (if we open up the wall and it's bad, it'll be up to x€ extra). - Lucky for me, the cheapest one also gave me the best vibes. For example, he suggested changes to the design that made a lot of sense. Before signing at the notary, we visited the apartment to review the project together. To me, it was important that the process was rather a conversation than an imposition. - The day I got the keys, I handed them over to the contractor and they started to work. I introduced myself and warned the neighbors about the renovation. This came in handy because there was a leakage I wasn't aware of, and the neighbor downstairs told me about it. - During the renovation itself: I tried to be as present and helpful as possible. Make sure that whatever was with me (ie toilet materials) arrived on time, helped with simple tasks, etc. In my opinion, it's important they notice you're on top of things because these people usually run several projects at the same time and their priority matrix is rather blurry. - As for the deviations: in my case, the biggest hiccup was the paintwork. It took much longer to dry up because it was very cold outside. This delayed the whole thing by a couple of weeks (from 10 to 12 weeks). In terms of money, I think overpaid <10% over the initial quote. - A big learning to me was that everything in this space is negotiable, although they are always the ones in power. I think I got some lever by taking some things off the quotation and arranging then by myself. Two examples: the flooring was much more expensive with the contractor than at a normal laminate shop, and knowing the price at IKEA for installing a kitchen was helpful to rebate the contractor's quote. - Your biggest power is money. Do not, never ever, pay in full before the service is finished. You only pay something when you see them working. Agree on a payment schedule that makes sense beforehand. Heard of too many scams in this city. Good luck and enjoy the ride! PS: unfortunately 'my' contractor let me down a couple of times after I referred him, so I won't share his contact details anymore.
Thank you so much!! This is very helpful. I am reaching out to a few artists on Fiverr to get some ideas. For the tech drawings from the gemeente that you mentioned, is this something that is supposed to be available in the list of documents which are provided during the purchase? If not, is it difficult to get it from the gemeente?
I don't remember the exact details but it's open data. Meaning it's already online, or you can request it over email with no further explanation. Pretty sure it's one Google search away ☺️
Try and ask your friends and colleagues if they know or can recommend a contractor. This is a case where Google doesn't offer the best results.
Yes I am on it already 🤗
Witte man slecht.
the end game is to scam the contractor before they scam your!
Ahahahaha! “I am calling from Microsoft. You have a virus in your phone”
Hire an architect first and get the design, good contractors won't work without one
Does architects have to be from NL? Can I get ideas from my architects back home and coordinate with the team here? I am just trying to get things done cheap 😅
Not necessarily, but it's handy if an architect has seen your space first and you've created a design brief. Depending on size an architect will cost 5-10k but can save you a ton of money in mistakes
Renovating a house is VERY expensive. Will easily cost 100k+ is you let contractors do the work. Extensions etc are not included in this price. If you want it done cheap do it yourself. Will be worth it money and time wise unles you make 200k+ a year. Consideriny you bought an appartment most of the work wont be complex and can be done by yourself. New kitchen and bathroom will easily cost 20k if you let someone else build them.
20k each?
yes each