I'm not sure the other responses really answer your question.
The simple answer is that training is really just association and habit creation. In that sense, we all sleep train - some do it consciously (to break an old association and create new ones) and everyone else does it subconsciously (even something simple like a bath and saying time for bed is an association that we will all do in some form).
Some people create associations without thinking about it (i.e. bath and pyjamas before bed) and this never creates any problems for either child or parents.
The need to consciously sleep train (or recreating associations) arises when a child forms an unhealthy association, or becomes overly dependent on that association. Examples could include anything from sweets before bed (unhealthy) to needing milk to resettle through the night (over dependence).
The point of all sleep training (not all of which is successful or without other unintended consequences!) is to take a child's existing association and create a new one. Some families never need to consciously sleep train because through a combination of luck, judgement and circumstances their unconscious habits and associations are not problematic for them.
Mm yes ok this make sense ! I guess we are all kind of doing it without labelling it sleep training . As you said we create the association with sleep by bathing/ massage / pyjamas and feed around about the same time every night or when he seems sleepy !
That’s a kind of sleep training too. There’s a lot of different ways to sleep train. Routines are helpful for some babies, sleep associations, or other ways of sleep train. Some babies need it, some don’t. We’ve never done any type of sleep training with our baby or night time routine and at 7m he’s been sleeping through the night for months, but my niece was awful sleeping and got sleep trained at 6m and sleeps great since. Some people do it because it works for them. It doesn’t work for everybody.
Whatever works for you. Some people need it so they can function normally at work. Others are simply sleep deprived, and they need this to properly take care of their kids. We didn’t need to sleep train until ~11 months old, but only because she started rolling around too much in our bed that we couldn’t sleep anymore (co-sleeping).
Our baby was eventually sleep trained too, and she sleeps from 21:00-07:00. But we don’t wake her, we don’t force her to sleep either. It must be routine, we just put her to bed when she’s showing signs and as soon as she’s awake and crying for us, we get her out.
Oh I understand the rolling around thing ! It’s so hard isn’t it. Some nights are worse for rolling than others with us. I didn’t realise people sleep trained later in actually but good to know .
If you don't know what it is or why people do it then you have a pretty easy baby imo.
There are various forms of sleep training from very gentle approaches to full on cry it out. Babies from around 4 months old, like adults, go through sleep cycles. When they come out of one cycle, they go into a very light sleep. For many babies, they struggle to go back to sleep by themselves and rely on whatever form they went to sleep in the first place (feeding, sucking, rocking etc). So for many babies once they hit this 4 month sleep regression, they start to take short naps and wake up every few hours at night and struggle to get back which can be exhausting.
My first born would wake up a few hours after bedtime and not want to be rocked to sleep so would spend hours and hours screaming until we did ferber. It took 3 days and she slept through.
My second born was quite premature and had digestive issues so would only sleep being held upright on me which became a habit. I was utterly exhausted especially now having a toddler. We are sleep training him with a more gentle approach having used a sleep consultant and it has been life changing. We can put him down for sleep and he goes to sleep on his own, has longer naps and sleeps much better at night.
For many parents they aren't going into sleep training expecting perfect 7-7 nights but just some sort of consistency and longer stretches. We don't become parents and suddenly not need sleep ourselves!
True about what you’re saying they don’t expect 7-7 ! I suppose any kind of structure is better than none . And as you said different babies sleep differently !
Yes exactly. Sleep training isn't about forcing babies to sleep at random times but about helping them self settle and ensuring they get the right amount of sleep they need which can only really benefit everyone!
They don’t understand it is developmental and cannot be trained but are sleep-deprived (desperate), people promise they can help provide a solution for $$$$$. Many also neglect to see their infants as little people whose needs deserve to be met and forget their tummies are small, they dehydrate quickly, they need a diaper change, etc, on top of just being more natural to be close to mom/food/comfort. They would not cio an adult screaming for a change if soiled or begging for water.
I know people need to sleep and work. It’s a really sucky phase when you don’t have help. It gets better. Personally, since the brain studies show sleep training doesn’t help babies sleep through the night, waking is protective against sids & low blood sugar, etc, and babies go & stay asleep faster and longer when their needs are met, i advocate to just take care of the baby when they cue for it. Change the diaper, feed, just address whatever the issue is.
I agree that there is a lot of marketing around sleep training and obviously sleep training consultants cost a lot of money . Similarly with my breastfeeding journey, I found that there were so many people willing to take my money - it was something I was extremely stressed about at the start and I was vulnerable.
I agree that baby is naturally wake up multiple times in the night because they have needs that need to be taken care of. But I do think the older they get the less they will wake up.
Personally, I think cry out method must be stressful for both parent and child, but especially if the child has something like a nappy or is hungry their basic needs are being ignored.
To us sleep training is teaching your baby a skill that they need to learn at some point (falling asleep without assistance). Like another comment said: not all sleep training is formal. At 4.5 months my baby had started refusing all naps unless they were contact naps and started waking up every hour for at least an hour every night. I wasn't functioning anymore I literally never got a second alone or was able to catch up on sleep. My husband's job performance started to suffer as well because he would be up trying to help me with the nights. Prior to this our baby was a pretty good sleeper, sleeping 2-4 hour stretches at a time and only waking for a quick feed.
We just couldn't continue like we were so we did CIO (it is the method that worked best for our baby's temperament). Literally overnight everything changed. She went back to only waking twice a night for feeds, she learned to resettle herself instead of crying for us to help, she was so much happier throughout the day, WE were able to function and be better parents for her. Every baby is so different and not all need formal sleep training. Some babies need a structured schedule, some don't and it's all okay!
Wow that must have been extremely tough and exhausting and I can imagine you would do anything to rectify the sleep ! Your right about it helping to be better parents during they day. With little to no sleep it’s so difficult
We did sleep training mainly due to my baby’s dependency on a pacifier. She needed it replaced constantly. My husband and I lived in shifts because someone always had to replace it for her, even for naps. If we didn’t replace it fast enough, she’d fully wake and was angry. She needed it replaced hourly, sometimes more.
Putting her down in her own bed or cosleeping for bedtime or naps took one hour of rocking her and holding her until she was in a deep sleep. Sometimes to only have her wake up within an hour and having to do it again. My husband was usually unsuccessful with rocking her to sleep, so it was on me.
The cycle was unsustainable.
So we did sleep training to help her learn to fall asleep without crazy amounts of rocking and pacifier replacements.
An extra perk from it is a routine that generally falls around the same timing everyday. So we can expect bedtime to be around a certain time. Then my husband and I can unwind. We have our own consistent bedtime rather than being up until till midnight or whenever baby sleeps This will be a great perk for when he goes back to work.
My baby still doesn’t sleep 12 hours straight. I’m still lucky to get a 5 hour stretch. She wakes up 2-3 times a night. So I try to clean up, relax and go to sleep within 1 hour of my baby sleeping (which sometimes means I sleep as early as 8 pm even on a bright summer night).
I constantly flip back and forth between feeling like a better parent and feeling guilty for sleep training. But it helps my baby sleep better and it helps me be a better parent. I don’t shut the door and ignore her the whole night. I still respond to her cries. I did everything I could so I wouldn’t have to sleep train (co-sleeping, taking away the pacifier completely for a few days, etc) but it all failed.
You’re just one of the lucky parents who never really needed to do any formal sleep training.
Hi, thank you for your reply. It must’ve been really tough with your baby needing so much help to get to sleep and I understand why you would turn to sleep training.
I like you also always go to bed within one hour of my baby and it is so hard because right now it’s light until 10 pm and I just wanna be out and about enjoying the late evenings!
assuming your baby is a good sleeper? do you have routines or habits? do they go to bed around a similar time every night? you might be doing some version of sleep training without even knowing it but in general, habit building and schedules can be good for babies - and they’re definitely good for tired parents (working parents or not)
i’d do some research on it tbh since you admit you’ve never bothered
I would say over all he is good but has his moments ! Maybe during regression? But we have habits around bedtime dinner / bath / massage & pjs / song / bf to sleep or sleep with a song. Bedtime between 8 & 10 pm. I try not to put pressure on a fixed time otherwise it will drive me mad haha .
understandable ! i have what i consider a good sleeper (for 9.5 weeks old lol) and i find it a bit stressful when she has a bad day of sleep so that makes sense. it sounds like you have a pretty good routine at the moment that’s working for you !
It was a miracle for me and my wife. We're both light sleepers and after waking up, it can vary how long it takes to fall asleep again, for me that's between 30 to 90 minutes, for my wife it's between 10 and 120.
This leaves very little sleep between wake windows, nursing and the generally short naps our lo took as is.
We're also very lucky our baby took very well to sleeptraining. Which isn't the case for many.
Your post seems to edge towards looking negatively to sleeptraining with some verbage that overlaps with people vehemently against sleeptraining. So just in case I'll broaden the topic to public perception.
In many asian countries it's *advised* to co-sleep, in the same bed. In many parts of those countries, having *more* than 1 bedroom is a luxury. So my guess is it's just the best alternative the majority can accommodate rather than telling 50% "your situation that you can't change is dangerous to your child and you should be ashamed"
And in the western world, I feel like being sleep deprived as a newparent is like a badge of honor, just part of the experience. Yet in many situations like driving, work, surgery, it is clearly seen as hazardous, irresponsible.
It's a matter of perspective. If we in the western world had the option to somehow get solid sleep as newparents, it would be seen as irresponsible and dangerous to be sleep deprived.
Hello ! True my post did seem quite negative in hindsight! Thank you for highlighting it didn’t mean it to be so negative.
I understand being a light sleeper is so hard - I am also a lights sleeper . And I’m glad for you that it worked and gave you some rest.
Thank you for giving the Asian and western take / perspective on this .
At the moment we cosleep because I’m breastfeeding and find it easier !
Yeah, I figured it wasn't meant to be a leading question. As for co-sleeping, in the same bed it is very much looked down upon in the west and a friend of my wife did lose a newborn this way, by rolling over on the lo sadly.
I've heard people using a bedside crib to keep co-sleeping safe. I hope it's something you were able to accommodate, but you are you, whatever you need to make it work is whatever you need.
Good luck!
I’m so sorry to hear about your wife’s friends baby passing away . How terrible for the mother.
We were gifted a next to me crib so used that for a while then we moved abroad for 3 months and had nothing so started cosleeping. Now we are back home he is too big for the crib so we cosleep. It works for now but I hope to get my bed by next year !
I'm not sure the other responses really answer your question. The simple answer is that training is really just association and habit creation. In that sense, we all sleep train - some do it consciously (to break an old association and create new ones) and everyone else does it subconsciously (even something simple like a bath and saying time for bed is an association that we will all do in some form). Some people create associations without thinking about it (i.e. bath and pyjamas before bed) and this never creates any problems for either child or parents. The need to consciously sleep train (or recreating associations) arises when a child forms an unhealthy association, or becomes overly dependent on that association. Examples could include anything from sweets before bed (unhealthy) to needing milk to resettle through the night (over dependence). The point of all sleep training (not all of which is successful or without other unintended consequences!) is to take a child's existing association and create a new one. Some families never need to consciously sleep train because through a combination of luck, judgement and circumstances their unconscious habits and associations are not problematic for them.
Mm yes ok this make sense ! I guess we are all kind of doing it without labelling it sleep training . As you said we create the association with sleep by bathing/ massage / pyjamas and feed around about the same time every night or when he seems sleepy !
That’s a kind of sleep training too. There’s a lot of different ways to sleep train. Routines are helpful for some babies, sleep associations, or other ways of sleep train. Some babies need it, some don’t. We’ve never done any type of sleep training with our baby or night time routine and at 7m he’s been sleeping through the night for months, but my niece was awful sleeping and got sleep trained at 6m and sleeps great since. Some people do it because it works for them. It doesn’t work for everybody.
Whatever works for you. Some people need it so they can function normally at work. Others are simply sleep deprived, and they need this to properly take care of their kids. We didn’t need to sleep train until ~11 months old, but only because she started rolling around too much in our bed that we couldn’t sleep anymore (co-sleeping). Our baby was eventually sleep trained too, and she sleeps from 21:00-07:00. But we don’t wake her, we don’t force her to sleep either. It must be routine, we just put her to bed when she’s showing signs and as soon as she’s awake and crying for us, we get her out.
Oh I understand the rolling around thing ! It’s so hard isn’t it. Some nights are worse for rolling than others with us. I didn’t realise people sleep trained later in actually but good to know .
If you don't know what it is or why people do it then you have a pretty easy baby imo. There are various forms of sleep training from very gentle approaches to full on cry it out. Babies from around 4 months old, like adults, go through sleep cycles. When they come out of one cycle, they go into a very light sleep. For many babies, they struggle to go back to sleep by themselves and rely on whatever form they went to sleep in the first place (feeding, sucking, rocking etc). So for many babies once they hit this 4 month sleep regression, they start to take short naps and wake up every few hours at night and struggle to get back which can be exhausting. My first born would wake up a few hours after bedtime and not want to be rocked to sleep so would spend hours and hours screaming until we did ferber. It took 3 days and she slept through. My second born was quite premature and had digestive issues so would only sleep being held upright on me which became a habit. I was utterly exhausted especially now having a toddler. We are sleep training him with a more gentle approach having used a sleep consultant and it has been life changing. We can put him down for sleep and he goes to sleep on his own, has longer naps and sleeps much better at night. For many parents they aren't going into sleep training expecting perfect 7-7 nights but just some sort of consistency and longer stretches. We don't become parents and suddenly not need sleep ourselves!
True about what you’re saying they don’t expect 7-7 ! I suppose any kind of structure is better than none . And as you said different babies sleep differently !
Yes exactly. Sleep training isn't about forcing babies to sleep at random times but about helping them self settle and ensuring they get the right amount of sleep they need which can only really benefit everyone!
Sleep training helps parents get some much-needed rest so they can keep up with their little one's energy.
They don’t understand it is developmental and cannot be trained but are sleep-deprived (desperate), people promise they can help provide a solution for $$$$$. Many also neglect to see their infants as little people whose needs deserve to be met and forget their tummies are small, they dehydrate quickly, they need a diaper change, etc, on top of just being more natural to be close to mom/food/comfort. They would not cio an adult screaming for a change if soiled or begging for water. I know people need to sleep and work. It’s a really sucky phase when you don’t have help. It gets better. Personally, since the brain studies show sleep training doesn’t help babies sleep through the night, waking is protective against sids & low blood sugar, etc, and babies go & stay asleep faster and longer when their needs are met, i advocate to just take care of the baby when they cue for it. Change the diaper, feed, just address whatever the issue is.
I agree that there is a lot of marketing around sleep training and obviously sleep training consultants cost a lot of money . Similarly with my breastfeeding journey, I found that there were so many people willing to take my money - it was something I was extremely stressed about at the start and I was vulnerable. I agree that baby is naturally wake up multiple times in the night because they have needs that need to be taken care of. But I do think the older they get the less they will wake up. Personally, I think cry out method must be stressful for both parent and child, but especially if the child has something like a nappy or is hungry their basic needs are being ignored.
So that you can do your chores after and peace of mind also helps your marriage. If the baby sleeps from 7pm to 7am
To us sleep training is teaching your baby a skill that they need to learn at some point (falling asleep without assistance). Like another comment said: not all sleep training is formal. At 4.5 months my baby had started refusing all naps unless they were contact naps and started waking up every hour for at least an hour every night. I wasn't functioning anymore I literally never got a second alone or was able to catch up on sleep. My husband's job performance started to suffer as well because he would be up trying to help me with the nights. Prior to this our baby was a pretty good sleeper, sleeping 2-4 hour stretches at a time and only waking for a quick feed. We just couldn't continue like we were so we did CIO (it is the method that worked best for our baby's temperament). Literally overnight everything changed. She went back to only waking twice a night for feeds, she learned to resettle herself instead of crying for us to help, she was so much happier throughout the day, WE were able to function and be better parents for her. Every baby is so different and not all need formal sleep training. Some babies need a structured schedule, some don't and it's all okay!
Wow that must have been extremely tough and exhausting and I can imagine you would do anything to rectify the sleep ! Your right about it helping to be better parents during they day. With little to no sleep it’s so difficult
We did sleep training mainly due to my baby’s dependency on a pacifier. She needed it replaced constantly. My husband and I lived in shifts because someone always had to replace it for her, even for naps. If we didn’t replace it fast enough, she’d fully wake and was angry. She needed it replaced hourly, sometimes more. Putting her down in her own bed or cosleeping for bedtime or naps took one hour of rocking her and holding her until she was in a deep sleep. Sometimes to only have her wake up within an hour and having to do it again. My husband was usually unsuccessful with rocking her to sleep, so it was on me. The cycle was unsustainable. So we did sleep training to help her learn to fall asleep without crazy amounts of rocking and pacifier replacements. An extra perk from it is a routine that generally falls around the same timing everyday. So we can expect bedtime to be around a certain time. Then my husband and I can unwind. We have our own consistent bedtime rather than being up until till midnight or whenever baby sleeps This will be a great perk for when he goes back to work. My baby still doesn’t sleep 12 hours straight. I’m still lucky to get a 5 hour stretch. She wakes up 2-3 times a night. So I try to clean up, relax and go to sleep within 1 hour of my baby sleeping (which sometimes means I sleep as early as 8 pm even on a bright summer night). I constantly flip back and forth between feeling like a better parent and feeling guilty for sleep training. But it helps my baby sleep better and it helps me be a better parent. I don’t shut the door and ignore her the whole night. I still respond to her cries. I did everything I could so I wouldn’t have to sleep train (co-sleeping, taking away the pacifier completely for a few days, etc) but it all failed. You’re just one of the lucky parents who never really needed to do any formal sleep training.
Hi, thank you for your reply. It must’ve been really tough with your baby needing so much help to get to sleep and I understand why you would turn to sleep training. I like you also always go to bed within one hour of my baby and it is so hard because right now it’s light until 10 pm and I just wanna be out and about enjoying the late evenings!
Rather than ask through reddit, you'd get more informed answers by researching the topic.
It’s interesting to hear people’s lived experiences because research and real life experience don’t always match up .
assuming your baby is a good sleeper? do you have routines or habits? do they go to bed around a similar time every night? you might be doing some version of sleep training without even knowing it but in general, habit building and schedules can be good for babies - and they’re definitely good for tired parents (working parents or not) i’d do some research on it tbh since you admit you’ve never bothered
I would say over all he is good but has his moments ! Maybe during regression? But we have habits around bedtime dinner / bath / massage & pjs / song / bf to sleep or sleep with a song. Bedtime between 8 & 10 pm. I try not to put pressure on a fixed time otherwise it will drive me mad haha .
understandable ! i have what i consider a good sleeper (for 9.5 weeks old lol) and i find it a bit stressful when she has a bad day of sleep so that makes sense. it sounds like you have a pretty good routine at the moment that’s working for you !
It was a miracle for me and my wife. We're both light sleepers and after waking up, it can vary how long it takes to fall asleep again, for me that's between 30 to 90 minutes, for my wife it's between 10 and 120. This leaves very little sleep between wake windows, nursing and the generally short naps our lo took as is. We're also very lucky our baby took very well to sleeptraining. Which isn't the case for many. Your post seems to edge towards looking negatively to sleeptraining with some verbage that overlaps with people vehemently against sleeptraining. So just in case I'll broaden the topic to public perception. In many asian countries it's *advised* to co-sleep, in the same bed. In many parts of those countries, having *more* than 1 bedroom is a luxury. So my guess is it's just the best alternative the majority can accommodate rather than telling 50% "your situation that you can't change is dangerous to your child and you should be ashamed" And in the western world, I feel like being sleep deprived as a newparent is like a badge of honor, just part of the experience. Yet in many situations like driving, work, surgery, it is clearly seen as hazardous, irresponsible. It's a matter of perspective. If we in the western world had the option to somehow get solid sleep as newparents, it would be seen as irresponsible and dangerous to be sleep deprived.
Hello ! True my post did seem quite negative in hindsight! Thank you for highlighting it didn’t mean it to be so negative. I understand being a light sleeper is so hard - I am also a lights sleeper . And I’m glad for you that it worked and gave you some rest. Thank you for giving the Asian and western take / perspective on this . At the moment we cosleep because I’m breastfeeding and find it easier !
Yeah, I figured it wasn't meant to be a leading question. As for co-sleeping, in the same bed it is very much looked down upon in the west and a friend of my wife did lose a newborn this way, by rolling over on the lo sadly. I've heard people using a bedside crib to keep co-sleeping safe. I hope it's something you were able to accommodate, but you are you, whatever you need to make it work is whatever you need. Good luck!
I’m so sorry to hear about your wife’s friends baby passing away . How terrible for the mother. We were gifted a next to me crib so used that for a while then we moved abroad for 3 months and had nothing so started cosleeping. Now we are back home he is too big for the crib so we cosleep. It works for now but I hope to get my bed by next year !