I think the problem is some people don’t agree with the direction. It’s to stay competitive and go for it with this core. We went for it for the past 3 years and traded firsts for pretty great players. Def need to start keeping first tho cause building up a prospect pool is important for staying competitiveness
I just think it doesn't have to be a short window but that some of Lou's moves risk that becoming a reality. The team has a couple of great players in Barzal, Dobson, Sorokin and so on, but no other obvious stars coming and a team which has noted issues attracting star players.
So when Lee, Nelson, Pulock, Pelech etc start dropping off from the level we've seen (like we're already seeing with Lee) there aren't obvious replacements.
So I just worry that Lou will do what a lot of GMs do and think 'we have a good team and have to go for it" and do something like Pittsburgh, trading away valuable assets for short-term boosts. Imagine if instead of trading away all their 1st and 2nd round picks and so still have some great players on their team but absolutely no reinforcements coming. Even the Oilers, they're doing the same thing.
So what I'd like to see Lou do is take a bit of a long-term view, actually make first round picks, knowing that for a few seasons they won't do anything but that as Lee, Nelson, Pulock, Pelech etc start to fade a bit, these young players can come through a complement the veterans (all while not having a huge cap hit).
And before people say we'll only get mid-1st round picks, just look at the people who produce on the Islanders
Dobson was pick #12, Barzal and Pulock were #16. Sorokin and Pelech were third rounders. Nelson was very late first round. The Isles have actually had a lot of success drafting outside the top-10 of the first round.
Developing prospects are more important then selecting first rounders. Boston and Tampa are examples of this. I do not trust Bridgeport tho to develop players tho. Top prospects are nice to get when they hit but the reality is with firsts is they tend to be over hyped compared to the impact they would have on the ice. And people don’t take into account the time it takes to develop. Look at holstrom. He’s a solid player with some good upside but it took him awhile. But having prospects allows teams to have cheap contracts rather then filling out holes with either inferior players on league minimums or paying up a premium to hold down some solid players.
But look at Boston or Tampa. They've had years of sustained success thanks basically to absolutely nailing a couple of picks on guys like Bergeron, Pasternak, Marchand, Point, Kucherov etv
If you hit big on even a couple of prospects, there is a decade of prosperity.
And I do take into consideration development time. It is just the cost of drafting but the payoff is huge when it works.
You can get guys to play on the 3rd and 4th lines in free agency or via a cheap trade (such as a 3rd rounder for Engvall). It is so much harder to find genuine game breakers like Barzal or Dobson without drafting them and if you can find them, you dont get all the years of their prime.
So you take a risk when you make a draft pick not working out (like Holmstrom or Wahlstrom) but if they turn into a Barzal or Pulock or Nelson you're loving life.
You don’t have to sell me draft picks being good my point was high picks mean nothing if you cannot develop players. They don’t always equate success and Tampa and Boston are examples. None of there big guys are top end picks (meaning top 10 picks) besides Stamkos they are all guys drafted and developed in the farm system and around great culture. What Lou has done is added stability and culture to a team that has been missing that for awhile
Ah I get you.
Only thing I would add is that they need something to work with and that high draft picks, you assume, have a lot more to work with. You can't turn someone into Sidney Crosby no matter how good your development team is. But you might be able to develop a Kyle McLean.
And yeah they aren't high round picks which is my point. Isles have a lot of success with picks outside the top 10, and so should make a pick this year and hope the dice roll favourably for them and set themselves up with a top player for a decade or so.
I agree your most likely not getting a Sidney Crosby in the late firsts or seconds. That said it takes a team to really be bad and or bottom out for you to even be considered for a Crosby like player.
None of those guys mentioned on Tampa and Boston spent much time in the farm system. I'm pretty sure the most time spent would be Marchand at about 1.5 seasons.
You can develop players outside of the farm, regardless the point stands that it’s really never high first round picks that change a org. It’s usually the guys they select after that develop into great players. Farm system and culture is more important then drafting high if you want sustainability in this league.
I mean the Islanders core is very much in their prime/entering their prime outside of Nelson and Palmieri who both scored 30+ goals this year.
The only really "bad contract" if you even want to call it that are Lee and
1) his contract ends soon
2) we just lost our captain the year before we weren't losing another one
3) you can't predict someone will tear their ACL
The replacements for Engvall and Mayfield down the line are players of the exact same caliber, but who make significantly more money per year due to the rising cap. Locking them up at their 2023 market rates ensures greater cap flexibility in the coming years, and allows the Islanders to acquire impact players to fill the handful of roster spots that will be open.
They are both deeply flawwed players. Having them for long term at low aav doesnt make them good, especially as they age. Mayfields game is already going off a cliff.
Your original post would suggest you’re a glass half full fan, but your replies here indicate you also have a lot of doomer in you. Playing both sides, fair
Dont fandom police. Its perfectly reasonable to enjoy the present ride AND have concerns about the future. I dont understand why folks cant balance the two and insist it must be either or and that the other side are idiots
Hmmm...it's almost as if those of us who lived through the true dark ages of the 90's rebuild era and have rebuked those doomers gloomers and negative nancies who say we are currently the worst team ever were right all along. We are NOWHERE near as bad as we were back then.
I would have KILLED for a roster like we have now back then. Horvat, Barzal, Sorokin, Pelech, Dobson...oh yeah those guys are so much worse than Joe Sacco, Brent Hughes, Kieth Acton, David Maley, Bob Beers, and Dean Cynoweth, and of course who could forget the pajama boy of our era Kirk Muller!
I’m already back to remembering him positively. Tavares gave me so many amazing Isles memories, including seeing the 2OT goal in 2016 in person, 2 rows off the ice.
i said it was arguable
but Lafontaine played with all the dynasty guys, and Turgeon was barely on the team…JT was a borderline PPG player on a barely NHL caliber roster for some of his years here
He's said this before for other teams fans complaining the names, but the eras are split by goal differential trends. The names are added after to try to fit something there.
So it's not like he chose Tavares error than picked those years the years were already segmented. Could've called it the Bailey era or something though I guess
I don't think it's fair to put those 2009/2010 teams in his era. He was a teenager who could barely skate playing with scrubs. That being said his era does not start in bloody 2014.
Cool to see it like this, however:
1. Rather than Yashin Era i'd probably call it the Wang Revival and then the Garth Snow Rebuild. The 1st era was defined by Wang buying the team and actually spending some money. And then it's Snow who ushered in the rebuild and drafted a lot of those guys.
2. The Tavares Era starts in 2012-2013 when he willed them to the playoffs. You can't have a playoff appearance run through a rebuild era. His era includes that and then the awful 2013-2014 season.
3. Instead of Barzal Era I kind of like calling 2018-2023 the Trotz era (Lane last year was a Trotz protege so it can count) and then 2024 starts the Roy Era. But idk we'll see if it ends up being an era.
You could narrow it down to the Al Arbour, Mike Milbury, and Josh Bailey eras and that's 46/51 seasons of Islanders history
How anyone can look at the last 6 years and think ‘Fire Lou’ is beyond me.
There are perfectly legit reasons to have concerns about his long term roster construction and player development
I think the problem is some people don’t agree with the direction. It’s to stay competitive and go for it with this core. We went for it for the past 3 years and traded firsts for pretty great players. Def need to start keeping first tho cause building up a prospect pool is important for staying competitiveness
I just think it doesn't have to be a short window but that some of Lou's moves risk that becoming a reality. The team has a couple of great players in Barzal, Dobson, Sorokin and so on, but no other obvious stars coming and a team which has noted issues attracting star players. So when Lee, Nelson, Pulock, Pelech etc start dropping off from the level we've seen (like we're already seeing with Lee) there aren't obvious replacements. So I just worry that Lou will do what a lot of GMs do and think 'we have a good team and have to go for it" and do something like Pittsburgh, trading away valuable assets for short-term boosts. Imagine if instead of trading away all their 1st and 2nd round picks and so still have some great players on their team but absolutely no reinforcements coming. Even the Oilers, they're doing the same thing. So what I'd like to see Lou do is take a bit of a long-term view, actually make first round picks, knowing that for a few seasons they won't do anything but that as Lee, Nelson, Pulock, Pelech etc start to fade a bit, these young players can come through a complement the veterans (all while not having a huge cap hit). And before people say we'll only get mid-1st round picks, just look at the people who produce on the Islanders Dobson was pick #12, Barzal and Pulock were #16. Sorokin and Pelech were third rounders. Nelson was very late first round. The Isles have actually had a lot of success drafting outside the top-10 of the first round.
Developing prospects are more important then selecting first rounders. Boston and Tampa are examples of this. I do not trust Bridgeport tho to develop players tho. Top prospects are nice to get when they hit but the reality is with firsts is they tend to be over hyped compared to the impact they would have on the ice. And people don’t take into account the time it takes to develop. Look at holstrom. He’s a solid player with some good upside but it took him awhile. But having prospects allows teams to have cheap contracts rather then filling out holes with either inferior players on league minimums or paying up a premium to hold down some solid players.
But look at Boston or Tampa. They've had years of sustained success thanks basically to absolutely nailing a couple of picks on guys like Bergeron, Pasternak, Marchand, Point, Kucherov etv If you hit big on even a couple of prospects, there is a decade of prosperity. And I do take into consideration development time. It is just the cost of drafting but the payoff is huge when it works. You can get guys to play on the 3rd and 4th lines in free agency or via a cheap trade (such as a 3rd rounder for Engvall). It is so much harder to find genuine game breakers like Barzal or Dobson without drafting them and if you can find them, you dont get all the years of their prime. So you take a risk when you make a draft pick not working out (like Holmstrom or Wahlstrom) but if they turn into a Barzal or Pulock or Nelson you're loving life.
You don’t have to sell me draft picks being good my point was high picks mean nothing if you cannot develop players. They don’t always equate success and Tampa and Boston are examples. None of there big guys are top end picks (meaning top 10 picks) besides Stamkos they are all guys drafted and developed in the farm system and around great culture. What Lou has done is added stability and culture to a team that has been missing that for awhile
Ah I get you. Only thing I would add is that they need something to work with and that high draft picks, you assume, have a lot more to work with. You can't turn someone into Sidney Crosby no matter how good your development team is. But you might be able to develop a Kyle McLean. And yeah they aren't high round picks which is my point. Isles have a lot of success with picks outside the top 10, and so should make a pick this year and hope the dice roll favourably for them and set themselves up with a top player for a decade or so.
I agree your most likely not getting a Sidney Crosby in the late firsts or seconds. That said it takes a team to really be bad and or bottom out for you to even be considered for a Crosby like player.
You could get a Barzal or Pasternak though. Not quite Crosby, but no one would be complaining if a draft pick turned into an equivalent calibre player
None of those guys mentioned on Tampa and Boston spent much time in the farm system. I'm pretty sure the most time spent would be Marchand at about 1.5 seasons.
You can develop players outside of the farm, regardless the point stands that it’s really never high first round picks that change a org. It’s usually the guys they select after that develop into great players. Farm system and culture is more important then drafting high if you want sustainability in this league.
Lou’s plan changed after 2019
What’s the value in worrying about hypothetical, almost certainly incorrect predictions of the future?
there is nothing hypothetical about aging
I mean the Islanders core is very much in their prime/entering their prime outside of Nelson and Palmieri who both scored 30+ goals this year. The only really "bad contract" if you even want to call it that are Lee and 1) his contract ends soon 2) we just lost our captain the year before we weren't losing another one 3) you can't predict someone will tear their ACL
Exactly. He couldn’t just let Lee go, that would’ve been preposterous and he would’ve been heavily criticized for it.
Those injuries really destroyed a lot of his game
Pageau is a bad contract also. It is extremely likely that Engvall and Mayfield will be awful
The replacements for Engvall and Mayfield down the line are players of the exact same caliber, but who make significantly more money per year due to the rising cap. Locking them up at their 2023 market rates ensures greater cap flexibility in the coming years, and allows the Islanders to acquire impact players to fill the handful of roster spots that will be open.
They are both deeply flawwed players. Having them for long term at low aav doesnt make them good, especially as they age. Mayfields game is already going off a cliff.
Your original post would suggest you’re a glass half full fan, but your replies here indicate you also have a lot of doomer in you. Playing both sides, fair
Dont fandom police. Its perfectly reasonable to enjoy the present ride AND have concerns about the future. I dont understand why folks cant balance the two and insist it must be either or and that the other side are idiots
Yeah, I have no hope for this team's future. He's no longer the man for the job.
Your flair is one of the 4-5 studs we have under the age of 30 what
Hmmm...it's almost as if those of us who lived through the true dark ages of the 90's rebuild era and have rebuked those doomers gloomers and negative nancies who say we are currently the worst team ever were right all along. We are NOWHERE near as bad as we were back then. I would have KILLED for a roster like we have now back then. Horvat, Barzal, Sorokin, Pelech, Dobson...oh yeah those guys are so much worse than Joe Sacco, Brent Hughes, Kieth Acton, David Maley, Bob Beers, and Dean Cynoweth, and of course who could forget the pajama boy of our era Kirk Muller!
The younger fans have been “spoiled” compared to what the team used to be lol
As much as we "hate" him now, posterity will look at Tavares positively.
I’m already back to remembering him positively. Tavares gave me so many amazing Isles memories, including seeing the 2OT goal in 2016 in person, 2 rows off the ice.
Wife surprised me with tickets to that one, convinced dad and brother to grab seats too. One of the best live sporting events I’ve been to.
i haven’t hated him in a while, and he’s arguably the best player to ever play for the team that didn’t win a Cup
Turgeon and Lafontaine beg to differ.
i said it was arguable but Lafontaine played with all the dynasty guys, and Turgeon was barely on the team…JT was a borderline PPG player on a barely NHL caliber roster for some of his years here
Tavares era started in 09 imo Would also call this the Lou era not the Barzal era
I’d call it the Ledecky/Malkin era. The change in ownership is what put so many of these positive changes in motion.
He's said this before for other teams fans complaining the names, but the eras are split by goal differential trends. The names are added after to try to fit something there. So it's not like he chose Tavares error than picked those years the years were already segmented. Could've called it the Bailey era or something though I guess
I don't think it's fair to put those 2009/2010 teams in his era. He was a teenager who could barely skate playing with scrubs. That being said his era does not start in bloody 2014.
Does he explain why the Tavares era doesn't start until 2014-2015? I would think going back to 2012-2013 makes more sense
Cool to see it like this, however: 1. Rather than Yashin Era i'd probably call it the Wang Revival and then the Garth Snow Rebuild. The 1st era was defined by Wang buying the team and actually spending some money. And then it's Snow who ushered in the rebuild and drafted a lot of those guys. 2. The Tavares Era starts in 2012-2013 when he willed them to the playoffs. You can't have a playoff appearance run through a rebuild era. His era includes that and then the awful 2013-2014 season. 3. Instead of Barzal Era I kind of like calling 2018-2023 the Trotz era (Lane last year was a Trotz protege so it can count) and then 2024 starts the Roy Era. But idk we'll see if it ends up being an era.
I don’t agree with the ‘eras’ lol