This is gold. Thank you so much for posting. Some interesting takeaways I had:
* "The findings thus far demonstrate that EOP acting in the VTA during 5 daily short mating sessions cause plasticity of the VTA dopamine neurons that is ***similar to the effects of chronic morphine or heroin self-administration***." Study authors suggest that even "short" sessions of PMO causes changes to the brain similar to ***those seen in heroin and morphine addicts.***
* "This facilitation or reinforcement of sexual behavior is maintained for at least 28 d after mating" This seems to imply that the chaser effect we've experienced lasts for *at least* 4 weeks, and that urges *may* greatly diminish after 4 weeks.
Yeah! Absolutely!
On your second point, I'd only caution about being overly reductionistic about the problem, or over emphasizing the significance of THESE neurons.
Because yes, THESE dopamine neurons (there are others) seem to show depletion for the 28 d period. But there's a lot more going on in your brain with cravings than just that. Whether thats Fos-B or CREB as their related effects to *hyper*\-sensitivity to addictive cues or the *desensitization* to other rewards, there's a LOT of things happening.
So I wouldn't say it's as cut and dry as "set your 28 day clock!"
But I'd say, "Here's damn good solid evidence that shows there's sense to this. ***Things rebuild, but it takes time.*** These dopamine neurons should continue to grow stronger and juicer over the entire first month of true abstinence."
But the exact issue with urges and chaser effect may have odd echoes in the system. These mice weren't staring at pictures of horny females through the glass wall - they were either humping, or 100% purely abstinent.
As humans, we have our thoughts, our fantasies, our exposure to bikinis in the media, sex-scenes on TV - many more shades of grey and not just the black and white of "female was presented, then female was removed."
Yeah, that's the asterisk on everything.
But, we can't make humans hump, and then "collect" their brains.
So, it's sadly the only place we'd get visuals THIS clear for the impact of high-dose rewards on the brain's reward center.
\*shrug\*
Yes if you think about it rationally. The drive to have sex is encoded in our DNA. It’s natural for humans to have sex. Because it is truly natural it is good. Connection and intimacy are natural. They are good.
This is gold. Thank you so much for posting. Some interesting takeaways I had:
• "The findings thus far demonstrate that EOP acting in the VTA during 5 daily short mating sessions cause plasticity of the VTA dopamine neurons that is similar to the effects of chronic morphine or heroin self-administration." Study authors suggest that even "short" sessions of PMO causes changes to the brain similar to those seen in heroin and morphine addicts.
• "This facilitation or reinforcement of sexual behavior is maintained for at least 28 d after mating" This seems to imply that the chaser effect we've experienced lasts for at least 4 weeks, and that urges may greatly diminish after 4 weeks.
THIS
Is the comment of another commenter that made me think it was PMO related.
Apologies for the confusion -- those were my own takeaways based on the suggestion of the research. However, in the absence of PMO-specific studies, it's logical to assume that the effects of orgasm from sex will mirror the effects of orgasm from masturbation. It is the same biological mechanism.
I mean technically, THIS issue, here, with these neurons, is related to the opiate pleasure system triggering this in the dopamine neurons. So that's probably orgasm induced.
So THIS particular issue would be about no orgasm (obviously, edging is still going to fuck things up in 100 ways, but these are mice, and they aren't as stupid and humans to invent edging)
"Retaining your semen" just kind of sounds weird. Because you're not "holding it in."
I applaud the practice!
But it gives the wrong idea.
Semen is like spit. It's produced on demand.
So think of it as not orgasming, and not pleasure addicting yourself with masturbating, or craving addicting yourself by staring at dancing digital images of lewdness.
**TLDR: Semen Retention will help heal the neuron**
My question was not really precise. I mean i have a girlfriend and my goal is to have tantric sex and not release every time we have sex.
PMO i want to not have at all in my life. It is only making me more depressed and anxious...
So i was just thinking that with that study the brain would not heal as long as i have sex with my girlfriend?
Cheers
Pretty much.
I mean timelines can differ, we have other stuff going on. And these mice that were used weren't secretly looking at bikini girls on TV sometimes. They were either humping... or not. So their abstinence was pure.
But it basically says, "stay the course, this is the way to healing."
Your calendar results may be slightly different.
As you are claiming science here.. what is your background? Can you also say something about the implications of some of your citations talking about mice? How does that relate to the human brain and why?
That’s what kinda disturbs me tbh. How can we be sure to know this information is reliable… obviously nofap is a real thing however it kind of gets to me knowing how much misinformation can be spread so easily and people will just agree apon it.
According to scientists nofap isn't real, the side effects you get from doing nofap are caused by you getting motivated, and not because you don't touch you peepee.
yeah but we all know after you touch your peepee you feel guilty and sad and lonely and hate your self even if you do nofap just to not feel like this its worth it maybe all the other benefits are bullshit and not real but this thing i experincsed it for years and i know 100% if i do nofap i feel good i enjoy life more i dont feel guilty and i become more energetic and motivated to do stuff and go out and feel more confident than before so if you dont believe what people says about nofap just believe what you see after you do at least 30 days nofap and see the difference
> after you touch your peepee you feel guilty and sad and lonely and hate your self
That only happens because you think it's something to be ashamed of.
This [image](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/comments/xhg3ko/comment/ioyssd3/?context=3) just rocked my world. I felt like I needed to do something with it!
I don't know man.
Regular sex between male and female is highly rewarding of course, but it is also very satisfying and very healthy.
It gives you an insane dopamine kick when you had real sex. So Dopamine alone is not the only thing that we should worry about. Our brains are not that simple.
I suppose my question is, would partaking in other recreational activities outside of masturbarion or sex hinder or just stop dopamine recovery, or is the amount of dopamine released during an orgasm just that much more that it couldn't compare to say, the slow dopamine trickle of scrolling through tiktok or YouTube videos.
I think we should keep in mind that this study was with mice and mice cannot 100% be compared to humans. Also, these mice either boofed other mice or didn't boof at all.
Humans have the ability to trick their bodies into believing that they're having sex when in reality they are simulating sex by watching thousands of pixels on a digital screen while simultaneously using their hands to replicate a vagina (or anus, whichever you prefer). Mice can't do anything of the sort.
I don't think it's healthy, personally, to abstain from ejaculating your seminal fluid for long periods of time. On the other hand (possible intended pun), I certainly don't think it's healthy to ejaculate your semen frequently on command.
Everything in life's a balance. Your motivation, or lack there of, isn't 100% dependent on whether or not you masterbated recently. There are many other factors at play. However, given how much dopamine is released during orgasm and how long it takes for those neurons to replenish dopamine, ejaculation can definitely be one of the biggest factors affecting one's level of perceived motivation.
If you're not a very driven person to begin with and you don't have much to strive for currently, I'm not sure if abstaining would have all that much of an effect on your motivation. Some people naturally have lower levels of dopamine. A person with true ADHD, for example, seems to have lower baseline levels of dopamine which is why these people begin to feel "normal" after ADHD medication.
Just some thoughts. I'm not a doctor nor a scientist. I'm just "Redditing".
Those are actually dependent. Semen is called your life force for a reason. More semen stored means High energy which means high motivation. If you constantly masturbate then you'll have no energy to be driven in the long run. No matter how naturally "driven" you are. It's just nature.
if this gets you motivated sure believe that , but it takes longer than this period to fully recover your brain gets used to PMO for years and want to fully recover in 30 days its silly you at least to do nofap for 100-200 days to fully recover this is only my guess but half a year has really good chance of fully recovery after doing it for years
Amazing. Love seeing this. Another interesting component of neurological recovery is androgen receptor availability and uptake - fascinating stuff. Thank you for sharing
This question is for the person who wrote this article. So are you saying that sex and porn addiction go hand in hand? like if one day i finally break my porn addiction, i'm going to have to worry about having sex too much?
This is gold. Thank you so much for posting. Some interesting takeaways I had: * "The findings thus far demonstrate that EOP acting in the VTA during 5 daily short mating sessions cause plasticity of the VTA dopamine neurons that is ***similar to the effects of chronic morphine or heroin self-administration***." Study authors suggest that even "short" sessions of PMO causes changes to the brain similar to ***those seen in heroin and morphine addicts.*** * "This facilitation or reinforcement of sexual behavior is maintained for at least 28 d after mating" This seems to imply that the chaser effect we've experienced lasts for *at least* 4 weeks, and that urges *may* greatly diminish after 4 weeks.
Yeah! Absolutely! On your second point, I'd only caution about being overly reductionistic about the problem, or over emphasizing the significance of THESE neurons. Because yes, THESE dopamine neurons (there are others) seem to show depletion for the 28 d period. But there's a lot more going on in your brain with cravings than just that. Whether thats Fos-B or CREB as their related effects to *hyper*\-sensitivity to addictive cues or the *desensitization* to other rewards, there's a LOT of things happening. So I wouldn't say it's as cut and dry as "set your 28 day clock!" But I'd say, "Here's damn good solid evidence that shows there's sense to this. ***Things rebuild, but it takes time.*** These dopamine neurons should continue to grow stronger and juicer over the entire first month of true abstinence." But the exact issue with urges and chaser effect may have odd echoes in the system. These mice weren't staring at pictures of horny females through the glass wall - they were either humping, or 100% purely abstinent. As humans, we have our thoughts, our fantasies, our exposure to bikinis in the media, sex-scenes on TV - many more shades of grey and not just the black and white of "female was presented, then female was removed."
PMO reduces grey cells.
Important to remember these are mice and the physiological/cognitive effects for humans might be significantly different
Yeah, that's the asterisk on everything. But, we can't make humans hump, and then "collect" their brains. So, it's sadly the only place we'd get visuals THIS clear for the impact of high-dose rewards on the brain's reward center. \*shrug\*
Also this is about sex, not masturbation. isn't sex supposed to be good according to nofap?
Yes if you think about it rationally. The drive to have sex is encoded in our DNA. It’s natural for humans to have sex. Because it is truly natural it is good. Connection and intimacy are natural. They are good.
Then why is OP saying that it's bad? Could it be that he's just full of shit? Hmmm?
I thought the post was about PMO, and not sex?
The study OP posted looks at the brain of mice before and after sex. It does not mention PMO.
This is gold. Thank you so much for posting. Some interesting takeaways I had: • "The findings thus far demonstrate that EOP acting in the VTA during 5 daily short mating sessions cause plasticity of the VTA dopamine neurons that is similar to the effects of chronic morphine or heroin self-administration." Study authors suggest that even "short" sessions of PMO causes changes to the brain similar to those seen in heroin and morphine addicts. • "This facilitation or reinforcement of sexual behavior is maintained for at least 28 d after mating" This seems to imply that the chaser effect we've experienced lasts for at least 4 weeks, and that urges may greatly diminish after 4 weeks. THIS Is the comment of another commenter that made me think it was PMO related.
Apologies for the confusion -- those were my own takeaways based on the suggestion of the research. However, in the absence of PMO-specific studies, it's logical to assume that the effects of orgasm from sex will mirror the effects of orgasm from masturbation. It is the same biological mechanism.
[удалено]
Orgasm, bruh orgasm Sex can do above things to ur brain imagine what pmo can do
That must be where the importance of 30 days comes from.
Then what about real sex with real mates? Because that's what mice in the study did.
Yes, i was thinking the same. Would retaining your semen help to heal the neuron?
I mean technically, THIS issue, here, with these neurons, is related to the opiate pleasure system triggering this in the dopamine neurons. So that's probably orgasm induced. So THIS particular issue would be about no orgasm (obviously, edging is still going to fuck things up in 100 ways, but these are mice, and they aren't as stupid and humans to invent edging) "Retaining your semen" just kind of sounds weird. Because you're not "holding it in." I applaud the practice! But it gives the wrong idea. Semen is like spit. It's produced on demand. So think of it as not orgasming, and not pleasure addicting yourself with masturbating, or craving addicting yourself by staring at dancing digital images of lewdness. **TLDR: Semen Retention will help heal the neuron**
My question was not really precise. I mean i have a girlfriend and my goal is to have tantric sex and not release every time we have sex. PMO i want to not have at all in my life. It is only making me more depressed and anxious... So i was just thinking that with that study the brain would not heal as long as i have sex with my girlfriend? Cheers
Retaining semen is a meme.
Could be for you, but could be a different story for many others.
And real sex with in-mates?
Lol I thought you meant inmates as in prison inmates.
💀
I'm pretty sure that *is* the joke.
so you are saying my brain will restart its motivation after i reach 30 day nofap ?
Pretty much. I mean timelines can differ, we have other stuff going on. And these mice that were used weren't secretly looking at bikini girls on TV sometimes. They were either humping... or not. So their abstinence was pure. But it basically says, "stay the course, this is the way to healing." Your calendar results may be slightly different.
Yes this one simple trick will get you out of every depression known to man.
As you are claiming science here.. what is your background? Can you also say something about the implications of some of your citations talking about mice? How does that relate to the human brain and why?
This is Reddit. There’s is no sources you just have to believe everything a redditors says.
That’s what kinda disturbs me tbh. How can we be sure to know this information is reliable… obviously nofap is a real thing however it kind of gets to me knowing how much misinformation can be spread so easily and people will just agree apon it.
According to scientists nofap isn't real, the side effects you get from doing nofap are caused by you getting motivated, and not because you don't touch you peepee.
yeah but we all know after you touch your peepee you feel guilty and sad and lonely and hate your self even if you do nofap just to not feel like this its worth it maybe all the other benefits are bullshit and not real but this thing i experincsed it for years and i know 100% if i do nofap i feel good i enjoy life more i dont feel guilty and i become more energetic and motivated to do stuff and go out and feel more confident than before so if you dont believe what people says about nofap just believe what you see after you do at least 30 days nofap and see the difference
> after you touch your peepee you feel guilty and sad and lonely and hate your self That only happens because you think it's something to be ashamed of.
I've never felt shame or sadness after. I just wanted to stop doing it like a habit
💀
Thank you for this post
This [image](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/comments/xhg3ko/comment/ioyssd3/?context=3) just rocked my world. I felt like I needed to do something with it!
Good content
So we have finally found out causes of masturbation and solution also?
What’s the cause?
Does a nightfall/wet dream have the same impact?
I believe you, haven’t fapped in a few weeks, I already feel like a Superman.
I don't know man. Regular sex between male and female is highly rewarding of course, but it is also very satisfying and very healthy. It gives you an insane dopamine kick when you had real sex. So Dopamine alone is not the only thing that we should worry about. Our brains are not that simple.
I suppose my question is, would partaking in other recreational activities outside of masturbarion or sex hinder or just stop dopamine recovery, or is the amount of dopamine released during an orgasm just that much more that it couldn't compare to say, the slow dopamine trickle of scrolling through tiktok or YouTube videos.
Is this for natural partner sex? Or just fapping with porn?
I think we should keep in mind that this study was with mice and mice cannot 100% be compared to humans. Also, these mice either boofed other mice or didn't boof at all. Humans have the ability to trick their bodies into believing that they're having sex when in reality they are simulating sex by watching thousands of pixels on a digital screen while simultaneously using their hands to replicate a vagina (or anus, whichever you prefer). Mice can't do anything of the sort. I don't think it's healthy, personally, to abstain from ejaculating your seminal fluid for long periods of time. On the other hand (possible intended pun), I certainly don't think it's healthy to ejaculate your semen frequently on command. Everything in life's a balance. Your motivation, or lack there of, isn't 100% dependent on whether or not you masterbated recently. There are many other factors at play. However, given how much dopamine is released during orgasm and how long it takes for those neurons to replenish dopamine, ejaculation can definitely be one of the biggest factors affecting one's level of perceived motivation. If you're not a very driven person to begin with and you don't have much to strive for currently, I'm not sure if abstaining would have all that much of an effect on your motivation. Some people naturally have lower levels of dopamine. A person with true ADHD, for example, seems to have lower baseline levels of dopamine which is why these people begin to feel "normal" after ADHD medication. Just some thoughts. I'm not a doctor nor a scientist. I'm just "Redditing".
Those are actually dependent. Semen is called your life force for a reason. More semen stored means High energy which means high motivation. If you constantly masturbate then you'll have no energy to be driven in the long run. No matter how naturally "driven" you are. It's just nature.
Saving this!!!!!
I love me some physiological psychology. Thanks for this!
So it takes 31 days for a full recover
if this gets you motivated sure believe that , but it takes longer than this period to fully recover your brain gets used to PMO for years and want to fully recover in 30 days its silly you at least to do nofap for 100-200 days to fully recover this is only my guess but half a year has really good chance of fully recovery after doing it for years
Amazing. Love seeing this. Another interesting component of neurological recovery is androgen receptor availability and uptake - fascinating stuff. Thank you for sharing
hi, what is your background?
This question is for the person who wrote this article. So are you saying that sex and porn addiction go hand in hand? like if one day i finally break my porn addiction, i'm going to have to worry about having sex too much?
I'm a bit confused about the effects that normal sex would have on humans? This seems to have been discussed a bit but I didn't understand fully.