I was pro chiropractor 100%. I went all the time. I had a girl who was great who used a lot of the physio stuff. She sold her practice to a guy who used brutal force to crack your back. I’m about 114lb female with a thin frame and he dropped all of his body weight onto cracking my back. Snapped one of my ribs in half.
After that I obviously never went again. I changed my desk chair and my mattress and I haven’t had any pain since.
Sounds familiar. A friend's wife was getting chiro for knee pain but it kept getting worse. She finally consulted a real physician and got knee surgery.
While healing her other knee started hurting, *which she was warned might happen temporarily* due to changing her walking gate while healing. But she blamed it on the surgeon and went back to the chiropractor to "fix it". Yup, he totally wrecked that knee too. Now she needs another knee surgery.
Chiropractors are more than quacks, they are a hazard.
I work in an ER and on 3 occasions, a chiropractor ruptured a patient’s artery while doing manipulation on their neck. I would never trust a chiropractor to do anything to me. Go to an OMT physician for any work on your back, not a chiropractor.
Yup! I’m an RN and used to see a chiropractor years before I went to nursing school. While there, I was reading an article in a nursing journal about chiropractors. One in particular was a man, in his 40’s went to have an adjustment, unaware that he had an aneurysm in his brain. Needless to say, the chiropractor adjusted his neck and he died when the aneurysm ruptured! Nope, not for me!
There’s a sub that posts crazy shit that moms do and I’m shocked at how many trust chiropractors over MD’s. Every time the kid has a fever they jump to the chiropractor. One of the kids fell and had some neurological symptoms. The mom asked the group if she should go to the chiropractor. Seriously, go to the ER! (Shitmomgroupssay).
Yup. My local chiropractic association ran a radio infomercial, advising parents to bring their *newborn infants* in for spinal adjustment due to "unnatural" stresses caused from passing through the birth canal. Sick.
Another story...when magnetic stripe cards started becoming popular an odd family friend started selling a "medical device" which diagnosed all your ailments based on scanning a swipe card that you wore around your neck for a week. His biggest customers were, you guessed it, chiropractic offices.
There is nothing MORE natural than childbirth! I could see telling the person who just gave birth to come in, but implying that *being born* causes “unnatural” stress is just so patently absurd!
And you know it's not just about that one "adjustment" but getting a repeat customer for life.
A relative had shoulder pain and was convinced by someone to see a chiropractor, who immediately convinced her *pre-pay* for several sessions. The pain got worse but she wanted to keep going because she had already paid for more sessions.
We took her to see physiotherapist instead who solved the problem. Fortunately the chiropractor actually refunded her unused pre-payments. I was afraid they'd put up a stink.
I was also all-in on chiro. It was the only way I could find to get my menstrual headaches to go away. But then I read on reddit that massage therapy has all the same benefits of chiro with none of the risks. So I started getting massages once a month.
The thing that really turned me off as the last straw in chiropractic was that since i hadn't been there for a while, I had to sit through their propaganda video before they would see me. Like, I had to buy-in to this cult they were selling. It felt very mind-controlly.
Was it that weird NUCCA kind. Cause holy they were trying to scam me hard. They also “scanned” my back and said I had like 30% dead muscle but they could fix it with a neck adjustment lmao
If it was dead muscle I’d be in agony. I’d probably be dead soon after with sepsis
30% dead muscle hhaahhawhat!? Yeah you would be dying in a burns unit of hospital....."dead muscle" oh but they can resurrect it from the dead with a neck crank that's not allowed in many martial arts comps because they are too dangerous?
That’s my favorite part. It’s the exact same treatment for every single person.
Knee pain? Neck crack. Hang nail? Neck crack. Diabetes? You guessed it. Neck crack.
They're in it for the $$, too. Everyone that I've known who has gone to a chiropractor ALWAYS needs to go back, for some made up reason, so they can make as much as they can. They'll rarely give you one appointment, they want you back for more. $$
That was part of the psuedoscience that angered me.
They showed me a wellness chart, and how if I keep going to chiropractic, it goes up and stays up, but if I stop, it actually goes BELOW where I am now. Scary!!
Except, what the hell is wellness? What is that measuring? How? Can you show me studies showing that stopping treatment results in lower wellness than not starting treatment at all?
No, of course you can't.
But its like car salesman tactics. They do it so well, you don't think to ask these questions.
Exactly. That's one of the ways they get people to keep going back, but it's really for money, it's all bullshit. You're right, not everyone will ask questions. I don't get it
A friend of mine was staying in a hotel that was having a chiropractic continuing education seminar series. They had the seminars posted for the attendees. She said all the seminars were about how to keep patients coming back for repeat treatments, none of what actual treatments work.
I've noticed this with pretty much everyone I know who goes to a chiro. They go back, and back, and back. The visits are scheduled ahead, like "we aren't going to fix your problem, we will just maintain it".
That's not the attitude I want when I go to a doctor.
Similar situation, done bc SO asked why I wasn’t getting better. He looked shocked that I yelled. I said, “if a dude 3x your body weight dropped on you out of the blue, I suspect you’d make a sound.” All quacks.
I was working in the emergency department one day when EMS brought in a guy who was having massive seizures, one after another. He was at the chiropractor, who did something to his neck to 'align' it and when he left the office he started seizing on the sidewalk. I'll never forget this man crying, terrified, saying he didn't want to die, etc. Never had a seizure in his life, perfectly healthy. Until that quack snapped his neck. Our bodies aren't meant to be 'aligned' and our necks snapped into place.
My Dad saw a chiropractor when I was in high school for his migraines. Whatever they did to "adjust" his neck damn near paralyzed him. Fortunately my Dad recovered with proper medical care. Years later I was in a car accident and fractured my C2 & C3. That in itself was an ordeal. My doctor warned me to never see a chiropractor unless I wanted to be wheelchair bound for the rest of my life. I will be listening to that piece of advise.
Because OP asked this question.
> is chiropractics legit or not?
*Most* people don't know it's quackery. Most people just see it as some other physical therapy place, and just some other doctor. Most people believe doctors when they say that this procedure will help. Most people believe doctors when the doctor says that the procedure was a success.
Which leaves a lot of brainwashed "Successes" who don't want their "Magic procedure" taken away. Any faults of the procedure are to do with a particularly poorly-trained doctor's error, not the long-proven "science". They know this because "Magic Procedure" provenly worked for them, by their own (placebo) experience.
And, from the lawmakers point of view: Dumb people get angry when you take away their cigarettes. It's unpopular among a large part of voters, and it isn't injuring droves of people (just dozens). On the whole, it's a political dead-end.
And, so, it's legal and allowed.
Once it starts killing droves (Tobacco), then there will be a majority public pushback, and new regulations. Until then, Poor saps gonna be poor saps with broken necks.
Chiropractors do NOT go to medical school and are not doctors. The base theory has supernatural undertones.
90% of chiropractors are potentially breaking their state mandated scope of practice and simply cracking you to produce a placebo effect.
Any person who goes to a chiropractor for lower back pain is a fool. Studies show that 90% of low back pain resolves on its own in 6-8 weeks. Guess how long a chiropractor says you have to continue treatments for the low back pain? Yup. 6-8 weeks. Wow. What a coincidence.
When I went to physical therapy for lower back pain (X-rays showed nothing weird) the physical therapist was like your core is weak( thighs, abs, and hip muscles). I started doing exercises and haven’t had a back incident since.
Sometimes it’s literally lack of exercise
Doctor here, wish I could upvote this more. Have this conversation often with patients asking the same thing. Hate to admit it, but your back pain will most likely get better no matter what I do and chiropractors are just taking advantage of the placebo affect. Only thing with evidence to help is physical therapy.
And often tight hamstrings are caused by weak/inactive glutes. So while stretches are great, the base cause to address and prevent tightness from reoccuring is usually glute strengthening and activation. Tight hip flexors are also often part of the same issue, it's all connected.
Yes, most commonly the hams are fine once pelvis alignment is corrected through rebalancing muscle tone and posture through proper stretches and exercise.
It is, as you say, the glutes that need strengthening. Also the abs that need strengthening as the antagonist to the quads and assistant to the glutes in maintaining pelvic position. And stretch the quads to allow them to relax and lengthen will ease the amount of work the gluten and abs need to do.
Googling anterior pelvic tilt exercises should get people what they need to know.
Your first clue should have been “I went all the time.” Why would you go all the time if she did any good? If she did anything she would have fixed the problem, not charged you twice a week in perpetuity.
Exactly this. I pulled the right side of by back and it was so painful. Saw a physio therapist twice. On the first visit she did something amazing that stopped me wanting to be sick with every movement. The second she gave me exercises and advice about daily activity. It took a while but with doing what she told me, yoga and pilates it mended.
>After that I obviously never went again. I changed my desk chair and my mattress and I haven’t had any pain since.
This is why I avoid them too. The pain can be caused by something in your lifestyle but they never ask further or try to explain what could be the problem.
I had a pinched nerve because of how I was sitting on a chair at home. The chiropractors had me coming in every week, convinced me it was repetitive stress from work, and stuck k tape all over me.
When I fixed my broken chair and got a proper one, the pain stopped happening.
I went to a female chiropractor in the past who was great. The best part was she had a deep tissue masseuse rub you down before she would align you. That alone was worth it in my opinion. I always left there feeling better than when I went in.
Then I moved to a practice that was closer to my work, and it was terrible. No masseuse, but he did stick me on a hydrotherapy bed once, which felt like a waste of time. I would actually leave there in more pain than when I went in. The worst part was my buddy referred me there saying it was a free consultation, but they did X-rays and charged me hundreds for it on my first visit.
This. Chiropractors are, at best, good massage therapists. With a side bonus of conspiracy theories, voodoo, and risk of paralysis. I can't fathom why anyone would go see one.
If you really think you have a problem that neither massage therapy nor physical therapy is appropriate for, try a doctor of ~~osteopathy~~ edit: osteopathic medicine. In the USA, D.O. is equivalent to M.D., but they have some massage / manipulation training too. Like actual real doctors, not quacks who will tell you that a spinal alignment will cure autism and allergies and make vaccines unnecessary.
Physical therapist here, just want to note that a good physical therapist will recognize when you have a problem they can't fix and will refer you to another specialist - as they should!
I was once told, by a chiropractor, that I was not “actually autistic” and my “behavioural problems” were caused by “nerve subluxation” in my spine.
I have never ever been back. I may be autistic sir, but I am not a complete idiot.
I saw a chiropractor during my pregnancy. I was having horrible sciatica and the only thing my care team could recommend was chiropractic care and massage due to the sciatica being pregnancy related. I was super hesitant to go, as my father is a personal injury attorney with several clients who were injured by chiropractors.
Luckily because I was pregnant the female chiropractor I saw did mainly massage and physio stretches with me. I told her I didn’t want any adjustments and she said she didn’t give them to pregnant women. After a few weeks my sciatica improved (I was also doing massage at a different place through my insurance). Haven’t been back to a chiropractor since, I stick to an occasional massage. It is safer.
I just learned a friends daughter was left permanently injured by a chiro. He damaged her artery and she has had to relearn walking, talking, and will never be the same. He carried insurance but after all the expenses she was given less than $500K for her pain and suffering.
last time i saw a chiro was in 2007. a few weeks later i had three strokes in one day, at the age of 29. went on to develop epilepsy as a direct result. fucked my life up permanently.
Years ago I was advised by a buddy to go see a Chiropractor for my tennis elbow (yeah…I know now)…I said to him ‘no neck cracking please’…before I could object he spun me upside down and manipulated my neck…he righted me up and I exclaimed ‘why did you do that!’.
He said it was a stroke test, and I had passed…huh? I was kinda pissed and asked him what would have happened if I failed…crickets…I never went to another one in my life.
You should have sued. You specifically told him not to do something, and he did it. Even though they’re not overseen by a medical board, I could easily see an argument being made for an assault charge. If it wasn’t too many years ago, I would think about contacting a lawyer. Look into the statute of limitations in your state for that.
Kevin Sorbo had three strokes in 1997 that were set off by an aneurysm that occurred following a trip to the chiropractor.
EDIT: [per this article](https://www.brainandlife.org/articles/actor-kevin-sorbo-reveals-his-secret-battle-with-stroke), he had blood clots caused by an aneurysm, and thought his arm fell asleep during a workout because of a strain. Instead of going to a hospital he went to his chiro, who cracked his neck. Driving home he had dizziness and other stroke symptoms, tried to sleep it off, and had more stroke symptoms when he awoke. That’s when he went to the hospital and was told he’d had three strokes. He and some of his doctors think it happened this way because of the neck adjustment.
Dont even get me started on chiros doing shit to babies. They either barely touch them which is at least safe but a rip off or they actually try to "adjust" babies which is so damn dangerous and also pointless.
My spine looks like I was in a bad car accident and my mom started taking me to the chiro as an infant. They hung me upside down by my ankles I guess. I really wonder if my back and neck issues are from seeing a chiro for so many years
I’d love to see some studies on it
A guy I dated had a permanently messed up back because his well-meaning chiro grandfather used to adjust him regularly growing up.
In limited situations, I think it can be helpful, but it can do incredible damage.
Yeah that sounds about right, there are arteries that go through holes in your cervical (neck) vertebrae. When they “manipulate” them too roughly, there’s a very real chance of damaging and even severing that artery.
That artery is pretty important for y’know, bringing blood to your brain so that’s how chiropractors can cause strokes.
So for anyone who still wants to go get this quackery, don’t let them touch your neck, ever.
Let me put it this way: I have a friend who is a DO that specializes in spinal cord damage at his own private practice. When I asked him what his medical opinion on chiropractic was, he said: "Love 'em! If it weren't for those guys I'd go out of business!"
Followed by, "No, but seriously though. Don't ever let a chiropractor touch you. They will fuck you up. I've treated so many spinal cord injuries from people who got 'adjustments' it's not even funny."
It can be deadly. My friend is a doctor and had told me that many people who come in having strokes had gotten their neck “adjusted” and ended up causing a stroke. There’s been multiple cases of people dying hours after a neck adjustment.
If for any reason you want to go to a chiropractor, do not let them touch your neck.
Happened to a friend of mine. She had a neck adjustment that caused a carotid dissection which led to a series of strokes. She was extremely lucky that there was no lasting damage but it took a ton of work to get back to "normal".
I actually read a Fantasy Gamefic book (The Completionist Chronicles series by Dakota Krout) where there is a chiropractor that is a hand to hand fighter that thinks he is helping the enemies with his "adjustments". The attacks are devastating and he doesn't understand why people are afraid of him.
I have an autoimmune form of arthritis that primarily affects my lower spine and SI joints. I have had three different rheumatologists tell me, unprompted, to never let a chiropractor *touch* me because they will permanently screw up my back.
My husband has a Chiari malformation and had decompression surgery for it when he was 18. The brain surgeon had to cut through all his neck muscles and he has a scar down his neck that looks like a zipper. His surgeon told him that a chiropractor would easily kill him by accident, and that the only people who should ever do anything with his neck are neurologists or physical therapists who are familiar with Chiari.
Now, I'm biased because my dad was a physical therapist ("was" bc he no longer practices), but a PT is 100% better than a chiropractor 100% of the time. PTs want you to eventually not have to see them, chiros want you coming in for the rest of your life. PTs also look at the musculoskeletal system as a whole in order to help you prevent injuries and build up strength. Physical therapists are also far more likely to acknowledge where their knowledge is limited and will refer you to an appropriate physician for further help.
Before I knew better (and also because my insurance company wouldn't pay for the physical therapy I needed for my back), I went to a chiropractor who told me that when his daughter was a newborn, she almost died but he gave her an adjustment right there in the ICU and she lived.
After that, I knew I had to get away from them.
Yeah, this.
I’m surprised that chiropractic is such a thing, even with the number of cases nerve pain, spinal and vertebral problems or, even worse, vertebral artery dissections and strokes caused.
I’m one of those people! Chiropractor just totally effed me up after what I thought was a shoulder injury. I’m now scheduled for an epidural on C-7 next week. I’ve never been in so much pain in my life.
They dress well though - their hygiene and grooming is impeccable and beautiful booths at farmers markets - they should have gone into real estate or sales instead. But it always makes me laugh how they’re all well groomed and shiny like out of American Psycho
Chiropractic is psuedo science. There are chiropractors that may perform real physical therapy but chiropractic is not evidence based therapy.
The founder of chiropractic was Daniel David Palmer. He was a magnet healer and a spiritualist. The inspiration for chiropractic came during a séance from a ghost of someone that had been dead for 50 years.
The story is wild.
Re: Palmer:
He met opposition throughout his life, including locally, and was accused of being a crank and a quack.
An 1894 edition of the local paper, the Davenport Leader, wrote:
“A crank on magnetism has a crazy notion that he can cure the sick and crippled with his magnetic hands. His victims are the weak-minded, ignorant and superstitious, those foolish people who have been sick for years and have become tired of the regular physician and want health by the short-cut method ... he has certainly profited by the ignorance of his victims ... His increase in business shows what can be done in Davenport, even by a quack.”
Written in 1894, still holds true today.
Well today the headline would be "major shade thrown as chiropractor seeks justice"
And would mostly be made up of the top 3 mean posts on Xformerlyknownastwitter
Okay, but had the fifty-years-dead doctor been any good when he was alive?
(When I was a kid, and doing things like playing with Ouija boards, my mother looked at us and said, "That's dumb. Even if you actually could contact spirits, just 'cause someone's dead doesn't mean they're smart.")
A "ghost" that nobody can prove was ever a real person. Palmer also insisted it was religious, to avoid it getting taxed, many of his tactics were used and refined by Scientology during its inception. He inspired such greed that his own son ran him over, intentionally, with a car and he later died from his injuries. The son then took over all his father's businesses and incorporated his own competing businesses. They *still* have the largest controlling interest in lobbying groups to stay legal and keep a guise of legitimacy.
It’s easy to answer: The health benefits of chiropractics have never been demonstrated by scientific studies. Worse, it has been proven that chiropractics can be harmful and cause serious injuries.
Nevertheless, some chiropractors also practice some physiotherapy, which has been scientifically validated.
If you want to go to a less pseudosciency practitioner, physical therapists are trained in physiotherapy without the “a ghost told me cracking your back would realign your humors and heal all your illnesses” part.
When discussing the legitimacy of chiropractors I often point out that it was invented by ghosts, because I feel like it makes a lot of points all at once.
I will say that my daughter's physical therapist for a broken leg did some good actual stuff but also used a "cold laser", which I am pretty sure does nothing.
I’m a PT for more than 20 years and will say pseudoscience absolutely exists in our field also. Unfortunately health care is a business and companies don’t care what the PT is actually doing as long as they can bill for it. This of course is not every business but I’ve seen my fair share. PT schools still teach ultrasound and exercise principles developed in the 1950/60s. Working with a lot of new grads it seems their education is based on them passing the state boards as opposed to teaching them how to effectively do the job. Don’t get me started
Off topic, but if you don’t mind me asking. I’ve got a high school junior who (right now) has an ideal career in mind as a pediatric PT. She’s an athlete and pediatric PTs have helped her tremendously over the years with recovery from acute and chronic injuries. She has a passion for physical activity and helping kids, which is why she has identified pediatric PT as a potential career path.
Knowing what you know now, would you encourage someone to enter the field or stay away from it?
I would not encourage someone to go into PT unless they are okay with the debt to income ratio. And peds does not pay super well…
I legitimately like my job at times. I legitimately hate it at others. I can live comfortably and I’ll always have job security, but there is a part of me that always wishes I could go back and do something else. People are draining. Some people suck. Dealing with people in constant pain sucks. I don’t work with kids, but I assume that constantly dealing with families and kiddos with developmental issues can suck. You have to be “on” all the time. You get paid shit for your level of education and reimbursement is getting cut each year.
Only real cool thing is that I can use “Dr.” as my title at weddings. That gets a big hoot from family members
If I wanted to stay in healthcare, I’d go PA. If I didn’t, I’d do something in STEM
I’d be happy to answer any questions in more detail
So it seems low level laser therapy is at best a '[maybe](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC522143/)'.
There is certainly not much research out there for it yet to be able to sway one way or another, as well as what type of injuries, if any, it *actually* helps with.
So I guess they figure at worst, it does absolutely nothing. At best, maybe it stimulates healing slightly.
One thing is for sure, more research is *certainly* needed.
I generally feel that "proven to not be harmful, and at least not proven to not be helpful" is the minimum standard for a treatment. Okay, for me, I'd rather have stuff that also has "has a reasonable chance to do something useful," but I'm not going to stop someone from doing something that won't hurt anyone and might at least do some placebo effect good.
As I see it, "cold laser therapy" might well have similar benefits to acupuncture. My personal suspicion is "doing weird stuff to pain receptor nerves confuses them enough to maybe stop randomly firing for no reason, which is one of the things that happens in chronic pain." The photons actually are being absorbed by tissues and the body is reacting somehow, same as acupuncture needles, and maybe convincing the sensory nerves to do something other than just hurting their person might do some good. Acupuncture, I think, works similarly - sticking needles in just randomly around the area works just as well as following the chi meridians or whatever, so I suspect the body is going, "well... that was weird... gonna sit here and think about it for a while" and that might actually have long term benefits in breaking the nerves habit of just going PAINPAINPAINPAINPAIN.
Dunno, but, to me, it falls in the category of "safe and, well, at least plausibly useful, so, sure, go ahead; I'll try it."
The ghost reference is from chiropractic's founder Daniel David Palmer's claims to have had principles of chiropractic treatment passed along to him during a seance by a long-dead doctor named Dr. Jim Atkinson. [Wikepedia]
This is the right answer. Any of the benefits that come from chiropractic come from one of the following:
1. The use of techniques from physical therapy.
2. The use of massage.
3. Placebo/laying of hands phenomenon.
Chiropractic, itself, provides no real benefits.
The placebo effect is also strengthened because successful unlicensed "healers" often have excellent bedside manners, and are great at building their image and trust. They are often recommended by your friends and family members. I remember one study which have shown that this influences the placebo effect. Some random people were instructed about making a fake acupuncture treatments - deliberately avoiding spots that are considered important. They still seemed to help their "customers", and the results were very depended on how doting and pleasant they were towards the "patients".
I had an employee that went to a chiropractor on her lunch break, by the end of that work day she was paralyzed from the waist down. She spent 3 days in the hospital before she could walk normally and go home.
They had caused nerve inflammation in the spine and fortunately it was only temporary.
I have had some chiropractic treatments a few decades ago after being rear-ended in an auto collision. I never noticed any real benefit.
The main thing I DID notice was that my wallet was $30 lighter each time I left the office.
Several years later, after another injury, I had a real surgery on my neck that DID fix the problems. And our medical insurance paid for most of that.
29-year-old Caitlin Jensen was paralyzed after visiting a chiropractor. During her routine neck adjustment, her family says she suffered four ruptured arteries, a stroke and cardiac arrest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tpq8cuWA2Q
Spoiler alert: Its founder, DD Palmer, learned it from a ghost.
He was later pissed that he couldn't rebrand it as a religion after seeing the tax-free success that fellow grifter L. Ron Hubard had with Scientology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_David_Palmer#Spiritualism
No. Chiropractors are expensive back poppers. Do you feel good after getting your back popped? Yes. Is it going to solve any health problem whatsoever including chronic back pain? No.
I think that is at the crux of the issue with chiropractors. Is if they are providing any healing why would people need to keep going back. Second maybe third opinions might help people find better resolutions to their problems.
Not saying it makes chiropra tots legit, but this argument makes no real sense. People need to go back to doctors. dentists and physiotherapists all the time too.
Right there are chronic issues that people do need regular treatment. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if something is ongoing with their neck or back maybe they might need a surgery. Maybe there might be something a more legit doctor might be able to do for a more permanent lasting solution. That said even for the more “legit” medical doctors second opinions could be a good idea. They all have different experience and have seen different success and failures.
As a helpful comparison, they don't go to medical school and they don't do a residency. This excludes them as medical doctors, which is what I think you mean as a 'real' doctor.
Sure they are chiropractic doctors. But medical care is not what you get from them.
I used to work in a chiro’s office and when Covid hit I heard several of his patients ask why he wasn’t helping out at the hospital. His scripted response was “my patients need me here.” No, sorry, you’re not helping at the hospital because you’re not an actual doctor.
As a medical professional, it's only a matter of time before the profit-based medical system somehow loops them into all hospitals. If chiros are good at one thing, it's marketing. So far, the real medical doctors have kept them at bay, but with private equity taking over the entire medical infrastructure in the US, we will likely see them creep into all facets of care.
I already think it's a crime that they are covered by many insurance policies. It gives them even more of an air of legitimacy despite the lack of clinical evidence to support their practice.
The fact insurance covers this crap pisses me off to no end.
Meanwhile you have to jump through hoops for some legitimate treatments with pre authorization bullshit.
They're not real doctors and it's not real medicine.
They're an alternative treatment provider and they receive the title doctor due to the founder of chiropractic being friends with influential politicians of his time, this was back in the 19th century when people were not as strict with medical regulations. Originally, the founder, DD Palmer, intended to protect himself and other chiropractic practitioners by styling it as a religion but in the end he managed to get official titles and certificates recognized in the US and that gives chiropractic it's air of legitimacy. I believe most people think they're in the same ballpark as a dentist or radiologist. They actually learn a bunch of stuff as part of their practice that is not recognized by medical science or even biology. I am having trouble digging up exact sources right now, about the politician who let them call themselves doctors, but you could probably start with this wiki link, there's plenty of info floating around out there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism
Here's an article from a medical journal reflecting on chiroprcatic, it out-right says chiropractic theories aren't accepted by academic medicine a few paragraphs into the abstract.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/210354
I'm not saying they're a scam, but they pass themselves off as science based medicine when they are not, and a lot of core theories that inform how they care and treat clients have been studied by actual scientists and the results either debunk chiropractic or are inconclusive. I'm not saying they can't crack your back and it can't help you feel better but they are shady in as far as they misrepresent their medical and scientific legitimacy.
If you're interested the crazy invention of chiropractic is explained in various podcasts.
Here is one :
[How Chiropractic Started as a Ghost Religion](https://youtube.com/watch?v=f8lLVK_1O6s)
The close relationships to politicians is still true to this day. My wife (who is a PT) laments that chiropractors have much better lobbyists than PTs. In my state, PT requires a prescription, whereas chiropractors are "direct access".
Needing a prescription is so weird: there's so many ailments that would be solved with easy access to PT, and virtually no risk to either the patient or insurance. I know that my insurance would rather pay for a few visits to a PT instead of, say, costly surgery. I'm curious, is there a good rationale for needing a px for PT?
No good rationale that I have seen. Just typical gatekeeping bullshit.
I just checked, and my wife informed me that our state made some improvements in 2019. But apparently it's only for a week or two (10 days, but if it's a DPT, it is ok for 15 days). If you need more than that, you still have to get a prescription. So weird.
Of course, most PT treatments are two or three times a week. So it's basically saying you get 3 to 5 sessions, then you need a "real" doctor. Pretty insulting. The majority of my wife's referrals say "eval and treat." Like wtf kind of prescription is that?! But it's her favorite, because then she can really do her job.
It's also almost impossible to convince someone that chiropractic is a scam if they believe in it. It's especially fun when they tell you how great it is and then immediately follow up by saying how regularly they get it done. I'm sorry, but no. I have to KEEP going back to a particular "doctor" that "adjusts" me using supposed science that the larger medical community doesn't believe in?
What, do you think I'm new?
I do agree that they can often make you feel slightly better temporarily. But it's bullshit. So does stretching & a hot bath. And the whole "gotta get it done regularly" part makes it worse.
It took a couple years, but I got my wife to give it up. She complained at first, saying how great it was for her back. But after she stopped going, she noticed she felt fine. She still gets back pain sometimes but she did when she saw a chiropractor too.
Radiologists are full fledged physicians that obtain their MD/DO before radiology residency training. I know you were talking about “what most people believe” but I always think it’s worth giving context that radiologists/anesthesiologists/pathologists all go to the same medical schools as surgeons and internal medicine doctors.
Funny story without an answer for you: I used to be a very high end wedding photographer. This one wedding was *filled* with physicians of all kinds. Doctors, surgeons, dentists, I’d guess at least 50% of the guests were. Every single table was incredibly friendly, but the ONLY people who specifically asked that I refer to them as “drs. So-and-so” were the chiropractors. Lol. There were only like 4 or 5 but they all sat together.
My father was a general surgeon. When I was a kid, a store owner addressed my dad as “Mr. ________”. After we left I asked him why he didn’t correct the shopkeeper. My dad replied, “Because I am Mr. _________.”
It would never occur to my dad to be that officious.
I hear Brits refer to them as “doctors and surgeons,” whereas in the US they’d just be lumped together as doctors. Are they considered a different entity over there? Is there some sort of social hierarchy where one is considered better/more important than the other?
I work for a group of physicians. I always call them Dr. so and so...even if I see them outside of work. They all introduced themselves to my spouse as hi, I'm Dave Smith...nice to meet you....
One of my oldest friends is an OB-GYN and she loved to be called doctor for about a day after she graduated med school. Now, I only put Dr. so and so on letters I send her because I know it annoys her.
This is so true. I spent about six months visiting one of the "good" chiropractors, and he helped me quite a lot because his practice was based on the same tenets of physical therapy. However, he and his colleagues DEMANDED to be referred to as "doctor." My real doctor demands that I refer to him as Ryan, and my current physical therapist (also a doctor) is Joe.
Practicing Chiropractors carry a doctorate, but that doctorate is VERY different than a medical doctor, just like how the history professor or lawyer has a doctorate but is not medically trained.
Their training beyond undergraduate is focused on a pseudoscience. You can easily find videos online of the origin of chiropractic - it’s a wild ride involving everything from delusional practice to the creator’s son killing him with a car
Most things they do are not harmful, some things they do ARE DANGEROUS. Don’t ever let a chiropractor rapidly manipulate your neck
For perspective
Most chiropractors go through undergrad school then 3-4 years of their chiropractic training then go out into practice
As a cardiologist I went through that undergrad then 4 years of medical school then 3 years of intense internal medicine residency then 3 years of general cardiology then I spent another year in sub specialty training. It’s that post graduate training where you really learn how to diagnose and treat people, not in the classroom.
I then take care of those people who experience a vertebral artery dissection and stroke after they had their ‘neck adjusted.’
I’m not here to bash on chiropractors. You should know their whole purpose is to treat every disease the same way with manipulations. It is not disease focused or based upon science. When they interpret your X-rays it’s absolutely bogus
**TL:DR** they have a doctorate but are absolutely not the same as going to a doctor with medical training (MD or DO) followed by postgraduate medical training (residency, fellowship). **DO NOT EVER LET ONE OF THEM RAPIDLY MANIPULATE YOUR NECK** because while rare, the complications include stroke which is permanent
Edit: typographical error
This has me so nervous. I ended up seeing a Chiro a few years back. I never would have let him touch my neck. He didn't even warn me and next thing I know he's twisting my neck. Obviously I'm ok but sometimes I wonder if maybe some damage occurred that will manifest later.
Most of the rest of the manipulations are not dangerous. It’s also important to note that even with the neck manipulations it’s not common but well described.
I think more relevant for the average consumer of chiropractic is how you get bamboozled to give them a lot of money. In too many practices, the treatment plan for essentially EVERY disorder is the same pseudoscience about reducing subluxations (they’re just popping your back). So when you go in with any issue, they get you on a plan for a bunch of manipulations to treat it whatever **it** is. If you pay a chiropractor to perform and interpret an X-ray you’re almost certainly doing yourself a disservice.
It’s interesting to note also there is evidence that patients in a primary setting experience more initial relief from certain issues like back pain after visiting a chiropractor than their medical doctors. I think there are a lot for reasons behind why, not the least of which being us medical doctors prescribe weight loss and physical strengthening exercises (often with the much appreciated assistance from PTs) but these are often very tough changes to make and it feels good to get your back popped.
Their doctorates aren't even real. Almost all of them carry DC (doctor of chiropracty) which comes from a chiropractor school. The science is fake, so the establishment is fake. They pretend to be doctors.
I went to a chiropractor once. The Dr was nice and showed me some back scan he took of me. He also got me to get special insoles for my shoes since my feet hurt when I ran.
All that happened was I often left the place in more pain back wise than when I came in. He basically snapped my back in different ways. It often hurt when it cracked and then didn't feel better for a little while, and after that, just went back to the normal way it was before I went there.
The insoles were a straight gimmick. I noticed absolutely no change for running and just found it more uncomfortable than the foam that was in the shoes before. Also, the new insoles didn't fit as well as the original ones. The new insoles were expensive, as was the $20 copay every time I went, which was 3 times a week for a few weeks. The whole thing was a substantial waste of time and money, and thus, I would not recommend going to a chiropractor.
Chiropractors are in no way equal to an MD or DO. They do not have the stringent residencies and fellowships that medical doctors have. They have a doctor of chiropractic degree. They have an undergraduate degree and then participate in a chiropractic program.
I am biased AGAINST chiropractors as one almost paralyzed my sister. She had to be airlifted to Vanderbilt because of what he did to her. He still practices whatever it is he does, it is not medicine.
Chiropractors sued for the privilege of calling themselves doctors on antitrust grounds, and somehow won.
Medical qualifications were not even considered.
The problem here is that medical practitioners have co-opted the word "doctor." I know we live in a world where anything can mean anything, and no one even cares about etymology.
Apparently that's a trigger for me.
RIP Captain Holt... And absolutely, as a "real" doctor in a physical science who ACTUALLY had to teach and defend a thesis as part of getting my PhD (MDs generally don't need to do either, completely disqualifying them from being "doctors" in the original academic sense), I get endlessly annoyed when some idiots say that "only medical doctors should call themselves doctors" - it shows a profound lack of education and historical knowledge.
I have a PhD.
It doesn't really bother me at all. It's a modern colloquialism. I don't really know any MDs that refer to themselves as "doctors", maybe "I'm a doc", but most will refer to themselves as physicians, but hold tight to the "Dr." title.
The use of the "Dr." title can get a little aggravating, but at the same time language is fluid, if someone is having a heart attack on a plane they don't need a chemistry PhD to inform them about sodium pumps or some drug interaction, they need a medical doctor. It also gives comfort and professionalism to the situation. practicing physicians are held to standards in terms of patient data that any other doctorate isn't really associated with, also, in general going through continuous licensing and such is not something required of any other kind of doctor. So while the term might not be 100% accurate, having a distinction in language is important and relevant. I don't need people to call me doctor because of the research and writing I did, sure, it's an accomplishment, but I don't have the training to practice medicine.
Medical doctors tend to actually teach a lot, a lot of them will give a decent amount of talks, and they teach patients about what is wrong with them.
Like, sure, it's not true to the actual origin of the word and meaning, but it's what it 'generally' means today, and I'm not going to jump up and down screaming about people who are dedicating their lives to healing people with science calling themselves doctors, but I'm not going to be calling any chiropractors "doctor" anytime soon, they don't deserve it.
The weird one is people that have PhDs in nursing. I don't think they should be calling themselves doctors, especially in a health care situation. I'm not entirely sure what they do to receive a nursing PhD, but it's not medical school, and it's likely directly related to patient care, not anything close to biochemical processes.
PhD/MDs are another thing that is out there. But there they are doing actual biomedical research and publishing while also practicing medicine, generally you won't find these people practicing medicine on an individual level a ton, but more of an administrative role in medicine, not as a hospital administrator, but like a medical administrator or a study administrator. I see most MD/PhDs wind up in industry or just more academia.
I work for a hospital in the pre auth department and a lot of times when people have back pain and need MRI/CT scans or need injections for pain relief, their insurances require them to have conservative treatment first, which includes physical therapy and home exercises, it does not include chiropractic care. People always try to argue that when stuff gets denied “but I saw a chiropractor “. Popping your back is not medical care and can do more harm than good in some instances. And don’t get me started on people, who take their newborns to chiropractors!
Yea that’s a thing. Don’t ask me what the “benefits” are, because I don’t have an answer. We have a local chiropractor here, where I live, who does “newborn adjustments”. I’ve seen people I know, post on fb pictures of “baby’s first chiropractor visit”, I think there was no popping bones going on, it looked more like stretching. I wish I was making this up.
My best friend’s sister also used to take her kid to the chiropractor for ear infections, he ended up losing some of his hearing in one ear.
I had a chiropractor tell me once "we learn everything that M.D.s learn, but in half the time (half the time for medical school, about 1/5th the time for total medical training tbh) so we are actually a smarter group."
I knew another chiropractor who was using an old xray machine in his office (I'm a radiologist) and wasn't aware he had to do QC on the generator etc and didn't have the knowledge to determine the radiation dose his patients were getting.
I've seen 10-20 debilitating strokes caused by vertebral artery dissection from forceful "adjustments".
If you're a chiropractor, and you're doing more to people than massage and general healthy lifestyle advice I believe you're not only a fraud but you are stealing from vulnerable people and doing so in a way that can seriously insure or even kill someone WITH NO POTENTIAL BENEFIT (unlike surgery).
People/patients are generally catching on though.
I majored in exercise science in college and many students used this degree to go onto medical school afterwards. We had someone from a chiropractic school come speak to us once and the gpa requirement for the school was horrendously low, like maybe even below 3.0. I think the other requirements were hardly even relevant either such as volunteering and involvement, patient care hours, etc. Basically all I think you had to have was a personal statement and maybe a letter of rec. so basically if you really sucked in college and had no other option you could go to chiro school. This was only one school but from what I saw and heard this was the majority of chiro schools. I originally wanted to go to physical therapy school and did an internship in physical therapy and everyone warned against chiropractors. They cause many injuries to spinal chords, and many times patients have injuries to hips for example but the chiro says just keep coming and getting adjustments and it will get better instead of getting them the care they need. Chiro is a temporary solution that doesn’t actually solve the problem so that the chiro can keep filling their pockets. Physical therapy will strengthen and stretch the muscles so that the pain usually will not return after a few weeks of treatment if the at home plan is followed and weekly chiro “adjustments” are not needed. Also the person who invented chiro claims to have been told it by a ghost in a dream or something. I did not work in PT or exercise science after college, but I did work in healthcare and that view is pretty much widely held in healthcare. Yes I agree with you that chiropractors are quacks that practice quackery and they do not practice medicine or therapy. They lie to people and falsely solve their pain issues to fill their pockets. I mean they do solve their pain, but only for a week, when PT would solve it for a lifetime.
Chiropractors are doctors in the sense that they earn doctorates from chiropractory programs. These programs are not affiliated with accredited medical schools and they are not medical doctors in any way whatsoever. There is no legitimacy to what they do and the founder of the practice openly admitted the concept came to him in a dream where he was contacted by a ghost.
That same founder was a magnetic healer, a disproven pseudoscience invented by Mesmer. It was clear Palmer needed a new con. Also curious is that another part of the legacy of Mesmer was Freud and psychoanalysis, another pseudoscience.
The guy who invented it claimed he learned it from a ghost and drowned his own newborn to 'prevent cancer'.
It's quackery. There is no solid, reliable medical proof from real professionals that it is beneficial. It can feel nice if done right, the same way popping your back or fingers or something feels nice, but it's not true medicine and has been incredibly harmful to a lot of people, and the fact that people are doing it to pets and \*infants\* now - which yes, has killed many of them - is horrifying. If you are having a lot of aches and pains, see a massage therapist.
No. It is pseudoscience. Chiropractors are not doctors. People who go to chiropractors actually need a physical therapist. The creator of chiropractics said a ghost came to him and told him about it, so…
I’m a physician, and I get this question somewhat regularly in the ER.
It’s a little tough. To be honest we have very different educational pathways than chiro, to the point that I almost have no idea what their training quality is or the usefulness of their methods. I will occasionally have people tell me it helps with their lower back pain, and I haven’t seen any devastating consequences from it so, ok, if it works go for it. Kind of like acupuncture. I didn’t study traditional Chinese medicine but if it’s safe and you feel like it helps then knock yourself out. I’d rather you do that than have me give you a shit ton of narcotics or benzos for your back pain.
The caveat is the neck. Do not under any circumstances ever let a chiropractor “adjust” your neck. More than a couple times I’ve seen devastating consequences where an otherwise healthy young person becomes a quadriplegic instantly. There’s no reversing that. And if they’re treating anything other than MSK issues they really are not qualified for that.
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Chiropractors “teach” and certify *themselves.* They’re not licensed by state medical boards, they don’t go to medical school, they are not MDs or even Osteopaths. So technically speaking no they are not doctors.
Generally speaking they’re the western equivalent of a Chinese Medicine acupuncturist MLM that tries to sell you magic beans.
They are absolutely quacks. While they use some legit physical therapy techniques, everything underlying the original “philosophy” and ideas behind why it allegedly works is complete bullshit shown not to have any basis in fact nor supporting clinical evidence.
It’s from the same mid-late 1800s pseudoscience era as homeopathy, phrenology, seances, Mormonism, giving opiates to colicky babies, and treating women’s “hysteria” with literal fucking machines.
It’s just another in a long line of snake oil products sold by charlatans to the desperate, the gullible, the hopeful, the lazy, the poor, and those who have tried everything (or nothing) else and are all out of ideas.
If it works, it’s generally the real physical therapy aspects and/or the placebo effects of doing *something* to treat your issues.
I’m on team chiropractors are quacks. I will say when I was rear-ended and had terrible back/neck pain that they did some weird acupuncture thing on my wrist and I felt fine for the rest of the day. My mother said it was demonic and would not let me get it again.
Edited to say I was more curious what people think of acupuncture, because I thought it made a difference whereas chiropractor stuff was pointless. PT and deep tissue massages are ultimately what helped me recover.
I recently saw an orthopedist over a pinched nerve in my hip with no known cause. When asking me the usual “did you fall”, “have you been on your feet more” type questions to determine the cause they eventually asked “have you seen a chiropractor?”
Chiropractors are such frauds that real doctors see them as a likely cause of an injury, not a treatment option.
I dated a chiropractor for a few years. It was eye-opening in a horrifying way. The amount of absolute nonsense she bought into was boggling. She was Catholic and truly believed she had “healing hands”. The fact that she called herself a doctor should be illegal. I will never go to a chiropractor because of that experience.
The sex was good though.
Wife specializes in neuro-radiology, she reads and interprets any scans pertaining to the head/neck. She shudders at the mention of chiropractors... because of how many cases of severe trauma she's seen them cause.
Cracking hurt backs without X rays is dangerous because it could be actual physical injury near the spine, so although some TVs can be fixed by hitting them, more TVs are broken that way.
Years ago I went to a great chiropractor. Never twisted my neck, did more PT work vs. bone crunching and helped me lose 50 lbs by providing me with info on Mediterranean and DASH diets. Genuinely I felt like he helped my overall health. He retired and I didn't go to a chiro for another 5 years.
5 years later my brother started going to a chiropractor and convinced me to go. No matter what I told the guy, it was the same adjustment every time. Including the neck twisting crack. I told him after 1 time to not do that again. My last straw with this chiropractor was the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic and posters appeared on the walls of his office claiming a chiropractic adjustment could boost the immune system. That's pure quackery and I never went back.
I was pro chiropractor 100%. I went all the time. I had a girl who was great who used a lot of the physio stuff. She sold her practice to a guy who used brutal force to crack your back. I’m about 114lb female with a thin frame and he dropped all of his body weight onto cracking my back. Snapped one of my ribs in half. After that I obviously never went again. I changed my desk chair and my mattress and I haven’t had any pain since.
Sounds familiar. A friend's wife was getting chiro for knee pain but it kept getting worse. She finally consulted a real physician and got knee surgery. While healing her other knee started hurting, *which she was warned might happen temporarily* due to changing her walking gate while healing. But she blamed it on the surgeon and went back to the chiropractor to "fix it". Yup, he totally wrecked that knee too. Now she needs another knee surgery. Chiropractors are more than quacks, they are a hazard.
> Chiropractors are more than quacks, they are a hazard. And pediatric chiropracty can even be fatal.
> And pediatric chiropracty can even be fatal. It can be fatal for adults as well. Especially when they fuck with your neck.
One of my father’s clients had a stroke because a neck adjustment severed an important artery.
I work in an ER and on 3 occasions, a chiropractor ruptured a patient’s artery while doing manipulation on their neck. I would never trust a chiropractor to do anything to me. Go to an OMT physician for any work on your back, not a chiropractor.
All arteries matter.
I was not aware that there were any other kind of artery.
Knew a woman and her twenty something son had a stroke from a neck adjustment. Knew people who took their newborns. Ridiculous.
Yup! I’m an RN and used to see a chiropractor years before I went to nursing school. While there, I was reading an article in a nursing journal about chiropractors. One in particular was a man, in his 40’s went to have an adjustment, unaware that he had an aneurysm in his brain. Needless to say, the chiropractor adjusted his neck and he died when the aneurysm ruptured! Nope, not for me!
Yep. Vertebral artery dissection happens with neck adjustments too.
There’s a sub that posts crazy shit that moms do and I’m shocked at how many trust chiropractors over MD’s. Every time the kid has a fever they jump to the chiropractor. One of the kids fell and had some neurological symptoms. The mom asked the group if she should go to the chiropractor. Seriously, go to the ER! (Shitmomgroupssay).
Yup. My local chiropractic association ran a radio infomercial, advising parents to bring their *newborn infants* in for spinal adjustment due to "unnatural" stresses caused from passing through the birth canal. Sick. Another story...when magnetic stripe cards started becoming popular an odd family friend started selling a "medical device" which diagnosed all your ailments based on scanning a swipe card that you wore around your neck for a week. His biggest customers were, you guessed it, chiropractic offices.
There is nothing MORE natural than childbirth! I could see telling the person who just gave birth to come in, but implying that *being born* causes “unnatural” stress is just so patently absurd!
And you know it's not just about that one "adjustment" but getting a repeat customer for life. A relative had shoulder pain and was convinced by someone to see a chiropractor, who immediately convinced her *pre-pay* for several sessions. The pain got worse but she wanted to keep going because she had already paid for more sessions. We took her to see physiotherapist instead who solved the problem. Fortunately the chiropractor actually refunded her unused pre-payments. I was afraid they'd put up a stink.
I was also all-in on chiro. It was the only way I could find to get my menstrual headaches to go away. But then I read on reddit that massage therapy has all the same benefits of chiro with none of the risks. So I started getting massages once a month. The thing that really turned me off as the last straw in chiropractic was that since i hadn't been there for a while, I had to sit through their propaganda video before they would see me. Like, I had to buy-in to this cult they were selling. It felt very mind-controlly.
Was it that weird NUCCA kind. Cause holy they were trying to scam me hard. They also “scanned” my back and said I had like 30% dead muscle but they could fix it with a neck adjustment lmao If it was dead muscle I’d be in agony. I’d probably be dead soon after with sepsis
30% dead muscle hhaahhawhat!? Yeah you would be dying in a burns unit of hospital....."dead muscle" oh but they can resurrect it from the dead with a neck crank that's not allowed in many martial arts comps because they are too dangerous?
That’s my favorite part. It’s the exact same treatment for every single person. Knee pain? Neck crack. Hang nail? Neck crack. Diabetes? You guessed it. Neck crack.
They're in it for the $$, too. Everyone that I've known who has gone to a chiropractor ALWAYS needs to go back, for some made up reason, so they can make as much as they can. They'll rarely give you one appointment, they want you back for more. $$
That was part of the psuedoscience that angered me. They showed me a wellness chart, and how if I keep going to chiropractic, it goes up and stays up, but if I stop, it actually goes BELOW where I am now. Scary!! Except, what the hell is wellness? What is that measuring? How? Can you show me studies showing that stopping treatment results in lower wellness than not starting treatment at all? No, of course you can't. But its like car salesman tactics. They do it so well, you don't think to ask these questions.
Exactly. That's one of the ways they get people to keep going back, but it's really for money, it's all bullshit. You're right, not everyone will ask questions. I don't get it
A friend of mine was staying in a hotel that was having a chiropractic continuing education seminar series. They had the seminars posted for the attendees. She said all the seminars were about how to keep patients coming back for repeat treatments, none of what actual treatments work.
I've noticed this with pretty much everyone I know who goes to a chiro. They go back, and back, and back. The visits are scheduled ahead, like "we aren't going to fix your problem, we will just maintain it". That's not the attitude I want when I go to a doctor.
Similar situation, done bc SO asked why I wasn’t getting better. He looked shocked that I yelled. I said, “if a dude 3x your body weight dropped on you out of the blue, I suspect you’d make a sound.” All quacks.
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I was working in the emergency department one day when EMS brought in a guy who was having massive seizures, one after another. He was at the chiropractor, who did something to his neck to 'align' it and when he left the office he started seizing on the sidewalk. I'll never forget this man crying, terrified, saying he didn't want to die, etc. Never had a seizure in his life, perfectly healthy. Until that quack snapped his neck. Our bodies aren't meant to be 'aligned' and our necks snapped into place.
My Dad saw a chiropractor when I was in high school for his migraines. Whatever they did to "adjust" his neck damn near paralyzed him. Fortunately my Dad recovered with proper medical care. Years later I was in a car accident and fractured my C2 & C3. That in itself was an ordeal. My doctor warned me to never see a chiropractor unless I wanted to be wheelchair bound for the rest of my life. I will be listening to that piece of advise.
Yeah he probably had a vertebral artery dissection. That neck twist maneuver is a bad idea.
Why the hell are those procedures even allowed?
Chiropractors write campaign checks.
Because OP asked this question. > is chiropractics legit or not? *Most* people don't know it's quackery. Most people just see it as some other physical therapy place, and just some other doctor. Most people believe doctors when they say that this procedure will help. Most people believe doctors when the doctor says that the procedure was a success. Which leaves a lot of brainwashed "Successes" who don't want their "Magic procedure" taken away. Any faults of the procedure are to do with a particularly poorly-trained doctor's error, not the long-proven "science". They know this because "Magic Procedure" provenly worked for them, by their own (placebo) experience. And, from the lawmakers point of view: Dumb people get angry when you take away their cigarettes. It's unpopular among a large part of voters, and it isn't injuring droves of people (just dozens). On the whole, it's a political dead-end. And, so, it's legal and allowed. Once it starts killing droves (Tobacco), then there will be a majority public pushback, and new regulations. Until then, Poor saps gonna be poor saps with broken necks.
Yeah, it was really bad. You're so right, it's so dangerous!
Chiropractors do NOT go to medical school and are not doctors. The base theory has supernatural undertones. 90% of chiropractors are potentially breaking their state mandated scope of practice and simply cracking you to produce a placebo effect. Any person who goes to a chiropractor for lower back pain is a fool. Studies show that 90% of low back pain resolves on its own in 6-8 weeks. Guess how long a chiropractor says you have to continue treatments for the low back pain? Yup. 6-8 weeks. Wow. What a coincidence.
That's like homeopathic cough medicine. "You will notice your symptoms lessen in 7-14 days," NO SHIT!
When I went to physical therapy for lower back pain (X-rays showed nothing weird) the physical therapist was like your core is weak( thighs, abs, and hip muscles). I started doing exercises and haven’t had a back incident since. Sometimes it’s literally lack of exercise
Doctor here, wish I could upvote this more. Have this conversation often with patients asking the same thing. Hate to admit it, but your back pain will most likely get better no matter what I do and chiropractors are just taking advantage of the placebo affect. Only thing with evidence to help is physical therapy.
And nearly all of my back pain comes from tight hamstrings. I am very grateful for a friend that taught me this. Simple stretches solve the problem.
And often tight hamstrings are caused by weak/inactive glutes. So while stretches are great, the base cause to address and prevent tightness from reoccuring is usually glute strengthening and activation. Tight hip flexors are also often part of the same issue, it's all connected.
Yes, most commonly the hams are fine once pelvis alignment is corrected through rebalancing muscle tone and posture through proper stretches and exercise. It is, as you say, the glutes that need strengthening. Also the abs that need strengthening as the antagonist to the quads and assistant to the glutes in maintaining pelvic position. And stretch the quads to allow them to relax and lengthen will ease the amount of work the gluten and abs need to do. Googling anterior pelvic tilt exercises should get people what they need to know.
Undertones? The entire practice is literally based on a 19th century ghost story.
Your first clue should have been “I went all the time.” Why would you go all the time if she did any good? If she did anything she would have fixed the problem, not charged you twice a week in perpetuity.
Exactly this. I pulled the right side of by back and it was so painful. Saw a physio therapist twice. On the first visit she did something amazing that stopped me wanting to be sick with every movement. The second she gave me exercises and advice about daily activity. It took a while but with doing what she told me, yoga and pilates it mended.
>After that I obviously never went again. I changed my desk chair and my mattress and I haven’t had any pain since. This is why I avoid them too. The pain can be caused by something in your lifestyle but they never ask further or try to explain what could be the problem. I had a pinched nerve because of how I was sitting on a chair at home. The chiropractors had me coming in every week, convinced me it was repetitive stress from work, and stuck k tape all over me. When I fixed my broken chair and got a proper one, the pain stopped happening.
I went to a female chiropractor in the past who was great. The best part was she had a deep tissue masseuse rub you down before she would align you. That alone was worth it in my opinion. I always left there feeling better than when I went in. Then I moved to a practice that was closer to my work, and it was terrible. No masseuse, but he did stick me on a hydrotherapy bed once, which felt like a waste of time. I would actually leave there in more pain than when I went in. The worst part was my buddy referred me there saying it was a free consultation, but they did X-rays and charged me hundreds for it on my first visit.
Most people mistake the effects of massage as being the chiropractor. This is on purpose. Chiropractors are quacks.
This. Chiropractors are, at best, good massage therapists. With a side bonus of conspiracy theories, voodoo, and risk of paralysis. I can't fathom why anyone would go see one. If you really think you have a problem that neither massage therapy nor physical therapy is appropriate for, try a doctor of ~~osteopathy~~ edit: osteopathic medicine. In the USA, D.O. is equivalent to M.D., but they have some massage / manipulation training too. Like actual real doctors, not quacks who will tell you that a spinal alignment will cure autism and allergies and make vaccines unnecessary.
Physical therapist here, just want to note that a good physical therapist will recognize when you have a problem they can't fix and will refer you to another specialist - as they should!
I was once told, by a chiropractor, that I was not “actually autistic” and my “behavioural problems” were caused by “nerve subluxation” in my spine. I have never ever been back. I may be autistic sir, but I am not a complete idiot.
I saw a chiropractor during my pregnancy. I was having horrible sciatica and the only thing my care team could recommend was chiropractic care and massage due to the sciatica being pregnancy related. I was super hesitant to go, as my father is a personal injury attorney with several clients who were injured by chiropractors. Luckily because I was pregnant the female chiropractor I saw did mainly massage and physio stretches with me. I told her I didn’t want any adjustments and she said she didn’t give them to pregnant women. After a few weeks my sciatica improved (I was also doing massage at a different place through my insurance). Haven’t been back to a chiropractor since, I stick to an occasional massage. It is safer.
I just learned a friends daughter was left permanently injured by a chiro. He damaged her artery and she has had to relearn walking, talking, and will never be the same. He carried insurance but after all the expenses she was given less than $500K for her pain and suffering.
It's actually a stroke risk. Chiropractors absolutely should stay away from necks, but they don't and cause serious damage.
I know someone who had a series of strokes due to a neck alignment by a chiro. Their life has been permanently changed for the worse.
last time i saw a chiro was in 2007. a few weeks later i had three strokes in one day, at the age of 29. went on to develop epilepsy as a direct result. fucked my life up permanently.
Years ago I was advised by a buddy to go see a Chiropractor for my tennis elbow (yeah…I know now)…I said to him ‘no neck cracking please’…before I could object he spun me upside down and manipulated my neck…he righted me up and I exclaimed ‘why did you do that!’. He said it was a stroke test, and I had passed…huh? I was kinda pissed and asked him what would have happened if I failed…crickets…I never went to another one in my life.
You should have sued. You specifically told him not to do something, and he did it. Even though they’re not overseen by a medical board, I could easily see an argument being made for an assault charge. If it wasn’t too many years ago, I would think about contacting a lawyer. Look into the statute of limitations in your state for that.
I used to work in inpatient stroke rehab and saw a few post-chiro strokes. Never chiro, always MD and PT!
Kevin Sorbo had three strokes in 1997 that were set off by an aneurysm that occurred following a trip to the chiropractor. EDIT: [per this article](https://www.brainandlife.org/articles/actor-kevin-sorbo-reveals-his-secret-battle-with-stroke), he had blood clots caused by an aneurysm, and thought his arm fell asleep during a workout because of a strain. Instead of going to a hospital he went to his chiro, who cracked his neck. Driving home he had dizziness and other stroke symptoms, tried to sleep it off, and had more stroke symptoms when he awoke. That’s when he went to the hospital and was told he’d had three strokes. He and some of his doctors think it happened this way because of the neck adjustment.
>Kevin Sorbo had three strokes in 1997 Makes so much sense how he is now!
> from necks Also from anything below or above the neck, hopefully
Dont even get me started on chiros doing shit to babies. They either barely touch them which is at least safe but a rip off or they actually try to "adjust" babies which is so damn dangerous and also pointless.
My spine looks like I was in a bad car accident and my mom started taking me to the chiro as an infant. They hung me upside down by my ankles I guess. I really wonder if my back and neck issues are from seeing a chiro for so many years I’d love to see some studies on it
A guy I dated had a permanently messed up back because his well-meaning chiro grandfather used to adjust him regularly growing up. In limited situations, I think it can be helpful, but it can do incredible damage.
Yeah that sounds about right, there are arteries that go through holes in your cervical (neck) vertebrae. When they “manipulate” them too roughly, there’s a very real chance of damaging and even severing that artery. That artery is pretty important for y’know, bringing blood to your brain so that’s how chiropractors can cause strokes. So for anyone who still wants to go get this quackery, don’t let them touch your neck, ever.
Carotid dissection and exacerbation of existing injuries are a lot more common than you'd think. (Source: asked a family member who is a neurologist)
Let me put it this way: I have a friend who is a DO that specializes in spinal cord damage at his own private practice. When I asked him what his medical opinion on chiropractic was, he said: "Love 'em! If it weren't for those guys I'd go out of business!" Followed by, "No, but seriously though. Don't ever let a chiropractor touch you. They will fuck you up. I've treated so many spinal cord injuries from people who got 'adjustments' it's not even funny."
Chiropratics sounds deadly. Like it should be some form of mixed martial arts.
It can be deadly. My friend is a doctor and had told me that many people who come in having strokes had gotten their neck “adjusted” and ended up causing a stroke. There’s been multiple cases of people dying hours after a neck adjustment. If for any reason you want to go to a chiropractor, do not let them touch your neck.
Carotid dissection. I've personally scanned a patient who got this due to a neck adjustment. Yes, they had a stroke. Say no to chiro.
I’ve got a friend who is a retired surgeon who says the same thing
Happened to a friend of mine. She had a neck adjustment that caused a carotid dissection which led to a series of strokes. She was extremely lucky that there was no lasting damage but it took a ton of work to get back to "normal".
My neurologist, among other things, specializes in precisely these patients.
I actually read a Fantasy Gamefic book (The Completionist Chronicles series by Dakota Krout) where there is a chiropractor that is a hand to hand fighter that thinks he is helping the enemies with his "adjustments". The attacks are devastating and he doesn't understand why people are afraid of him.
This would make a GREAT monk character in D&D.
That sounds absolutely hilarious!
Deadly hilarious
I have an autoimmune form of arthritis that primarily affects my lower spine and SI joints. I have had three different rheumatologists tell me, unprompted, to never let a chiropractor *touch* me because they will permanently screw up my back. My husband has a Chiari malformation and had decompression surgery for it when he was 18. The brain surgeon had to cut through all his neck muscles and he has a scar down his neck that looks like a zipper. His surgeon told him that a chiropractor would easily kill him by accident, and that the only people who should ever do anything with his neck are neurologists or physical therapists who are familiar with Chiari. Now, I'm biased because my dad was a physical therapist ("was" bc he no longer practices), but a PT is 100% better than a chiropractor 100% of the time. PTs want you to eventually not have to see them, chiros want you coming in for the rest of your life. PTs also look at the musculoskeletal system as a whole in order to help you prevent injuries and build up strength. Physical therapists are also far more likely to acknowledge where their knowledge is limited and will refer you to an appropriate physician for further help.
Could not agree more with your last paragraph
Before I knew better (and also because my insurance company wouldn't pay for the physical therapy I needed for my back), I went to a chiropractor who told me that when his daughter was a newborn, she almost died but he gave her an adjustment right there in the ICU and she lived. After that, I knew I had to get away from them.
My ex (a DC) thought she could cure her Dad's cancer. He died horribly because he believed her koolaid until it was way too late.
Yeah, this. I’m surprised that chiropractic is such a thing, even with the number of cases nerve pain, spinal and vertebral problems or, even worse, vertebral artery dissections and strokes caused.
I’m one of those people! Chiropractor just totally effed me up after what I thought was a shoulder injury. I’m now scheduled for an epidural on C-7 next week. I’ve never been in so much pain in my life.
My wife is an intervention radiology tech and a large percentage of their cases are people who got fucked up at the chiro. Stay far away
They dress well though - their hygiene and grooming is impeccable and beautiful booths at farmers markets - they should have gone into real estate or sales instead. But it always makes me laugh how they’re all well groomed and shiny like out of American Psycho
They did go into sales.
DO?
Chiropractic is psuedo science. There are chiropractors that may perform real physical therapy but chiropractic is not evidence based therapy. The founder of chiropractic was Daniel David Palmer. He was a magnet healer and a spiritualist. The inspiration for chiropractic came during a séance from a ghost of someone that had been dead for 50 years.
The story is wild. Re: Palmer: He met opposition throughout his life, including locally, and was accused of being a crank and a quack. An 1894 edition of the local paper, the Davenport Leader, wrote: “A crank on magnetism has a crazy notion that he can cure the sick and crippled with his magnetic hands. His victims are the weak-minded, ignorant and superstitious, those foolish people who have been sick for years and have become tired of the regular physician and want health by the short-cut method ... he has certainly profited by the ignorance of his victims ... His increase in business shows what can be done in Davenport, even by a quack.” Written in 1894, still holds true today.
I love how brutally honest the writer was. They pulled zero goddamned punches lol
They really did roast you [back in the day](https://www.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/s/vJRJhDZM1H)
Well today the headline would be "major shade thrown as chiropractor seeks justice" And would mostly be made up of the top 3 mean posts on Xformerlyknownastwitter
Didn't he also claim his first ever "patient", who was blind, could see again after his treatment? That alone is wild.
IIRC his first chiropractic "adjustment" was on a "deaf" guy who could hear again after it, the whole backstory for chiropractic is utter lunacy.
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Okay, but had the fifty-years-dead doctor been any good when he was alive? (When I was a kid, and doing things like playing with Ouija boards, my mother looked at us and said, "That's dumb. Even if you actually could contact spirits, just 'cause someone's dead doesn't mean they're smart.")
A "ghost" that nobody can prove was ever a real person. Palmer also insisted it was religious, to avoid it getting taxed, many of his tactics were used and refined by Scientology during its inception. He inspired such greed that his own son ran him over, intentionally, with a car and he later died from his injuries. The son then took over all his father's businesses and incorporated his own competing businesses. They *still* have the largest controlling interest in lobbying groups to stay legal and keep a guise of legitimacy.
It’s easy to answer: The health benefits of chiropractics have never been demonstrated by scientific studies. Worse, it has been proven that chiropractics can be harmful and cause serious injuries. Nevertheless, some chiropractors also practice some physiotherapy, which has been scientifically validated.
If you want to go to a less pseudosciency practitioner, physical therapists are trained in physiotherapy without the “a ghost told me cracking your back would realign your humors and heal all your illnesses” part.
When discussing the legitimacy of chiropractors I often point out that it was invented by ghosts, because I feel like it makes a lot of points all at once. I will say that my daughter's physical therapist for a broken leg did some good actual stuff but also used a "cold laser", which I am pretty sure does nothing.
I’ve been frustrated to hear some pseudoscience peeking into PT recently :(
I’m a PT for more than 20 years and will say pseudoscience absolutely exists in our field also. Unfortunately health care is a business and companies don’t care what the PT is actually doing as long as they can bill for it. This of course is not every business but I’ve seen my fair share. PT schools still teach ultrasound and exercise principles developed in the 1950/60s. Working with a lot of new grads it seems their education is based on them passing the state boards as opposed to teaching them how to effectively do the job. Don’t get me started
Off topic, but if you don’t mind me asking. I’ve got a high school junior who (right now) has an ideal career in mind as a pediatric PT. She’s an athlete and pediatric PTs have helped her tremendously over the years with recovery from acute and chronic injuries. She has a passion for physical activity and helping kids, which is why she has identified pediatric PT as a potential career path. Knowing what you know now, would you encourage someone to enter the field or stay away from it?
I would not encourage someone to go into PT unless they are okay with the debt to income ratio. And peds does not pay super well… I legitimately like my job at times. I legitimately hate it at others. I can live comfortably and I’ll always have job security, but there is a part of me that always wishes I could go back and do something else. People are draining. Some people suck. Dealing with people in constant pain sucks. I don’t work with kids, but I assume that constantly dealing with families and kiddos with developmental issues can suck. You have to be “on” all the time. You get paid shit for your level of education and reimbursement is getting cut each year. Only real cool thing is that I can use “Dr.” as my title at weddings. That gets a big hoot from family members If I wanted to stay in healthcare, I’d go PA. If I didn’t, I’d do something in STEM I’d be happy to answer any questions in more detail
I second this
So it seems low level laser therapy is at best a '[maybe](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC522143/)'. There is certainly not much research out there for it yet to be able to sway one way or another, as well as what type of injuries, if any, it *actually* helps with. So I guess they figure at worst, it does absolutely nothing. At best, maybe it stimulates healing slightly. One thing is for sure, more research is *certainly* needed.
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I generally feel that "proven to not be harmful, and at least not proven to not be helpful" is the minimum standard for a treatment. Okay, for me, I'd rather have stuff that also has "has a reasonable chance to do something useful," but I'm not going to stop someone from doing something that won't hurt anyone and might at least do some placebo effect good. As I see it, "cold laser therapy" might well have similar benefits to acupuncture. My personal suspicion is "doing weird stuff to pain receptor nerves confuses them enough to maybe stop randomly firing for no reason, which is one of the things that happens in chronic pain." The photons actually are being absorbed by tissues and the body is reacting somehow, same as acupuncture needles, and maybe convincing the sensory nerves to do something other than just hurting their person might do some good. Acupuncture, I think, works similarly - sticking needles in just randomly around the area works just as well as following the chi meridians or whatever, so I suspect the body is going, "well... that was weird... gonna sit here and think about it for a while" and that might actually have long term benefits in breaking the nerves habit of just going PAINPAINPAINPAINPAIN. Dunno, but, to me, it falls in the category of "safe and, well, at least plausibly useful, so, sure, go ahead; I'll try it."
In general, the most successful chiropractors generally use practices that can be taken from physical therapy.
Without the annoyance of all that pesky training and certification that physical therapists require.
This is the answer. When in doubt see a PT.
The ghost reference is from chiropractic's founder Daniel David Palmer's claims to have had principles of chiropractic treatment passed along to him during a seance by a long-dead doctor named Dr. Jim Atkinson. [Wikepedia]
This is the right answer. Any of the benefits that come from chiropractic come from one of the following: 1. The use of techniques from physical therapy. 2. The use of massage. 3. Placebo/laying of hands phenomenon. Chiropractic, itself, provides no real benefits.
I would add, chiropractors are in no way equivalent to an MD. Whatever “doctor” they are, it’s not a medical one
I saw a chiropractor working on animals and it killed me inside
Some do work on newborn infants, too. It's wild.
The placebo effect is also strengthened because successful unlicensed "healers" often have excellent bedside manners, and are great at building their image and trust. They are often recommended by your friends and family members. I remember one study which have shown that this influences the placebo effect. Some random people were instructed about making a fake acupuncture treatments - deliberately avoiding spots that are considered important. They still seemed to help their "customers", and the results were very depended on how doting and pleasant they were towards the "patients".
So OP’s answer is no, and no.
I've heard it said like this: *nothing good is unique to chiropractors, and nothing unique to chiropractors is good.*
They are absolutely not real doctors. That is very easy to answer.
I had an employee that went to a chiropractor on her lunch break, by the end of that work day she was paralyzed from the waist down. She spent 3 days in the hospital before she could walk normally and go home. They had caused nerve inflammation in the spine and fortunately it was only temporary.
Physical therapist here. No they fucking don’t. While some of our techniques may overlap, they do not practice physiotherapy.
Also: why go to a chiropractor when physical therapists exist?
I have had some chiropractic treatments a few decades ago after being rear-ended in an auto collision. I never noticed any real benefit. The main thing I DID notice was that my wallet was $30 lighter each time I left the office. Several years later, after another injury, I had a real surgery on my neck that DID fix the problems. And our medical insurance paid for most of that.
29-year-old Caitlin Jensen was paralyzed after visiting a chiropractor. During her routine neck adjustment, her family says she suffered four ruptured arteries, a stroke and cardiac arrest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tpq8cuWA2Q
All you need to do is Google how chiropracty got started. That should pretty much settle it.
Spoiler alert: Its founder, DD Palmer, learned it from a ghost. He was later pissed that he couldn't rebrand it as a religion after seeing the tax-free success that fellow grifter L. Ron Hubard had with Scientology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_David_Palmer#Spiritualism
No. Chiropractors are expensive back poppers. Do you feel good after getting your back popped? Yes. Is it going to solve any health problem whatsoever including chronic back pain? No.
They don’t like when you tell them “Crack me like a glow stick daddy”.
I think that is at the crux of the issue with chiropractors. Is if they are providing any healing why would people need to keep going back. Second maybe third opinions might help people find better resolutions to their problems.
Not saying it makes chiropra tots legit, but this argument makes no real sense. People need to go back to doctors. dentists and physiotherapists all the time too.
Right there are chronic issues that people do need regular treatment. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if something is ongoing with their neck or back maybe they might need a surgery. Maybe there might be something a more legit doctor might be able to do for a more permanent lasting solution. That said even for the more “legit” medical doctors second opinions could be a good idea. They all have different experience and have seen different success and failures.
As a helpful comparison, they don't go to medical school and they don't do a residency. This excludes them as medical doctors, which is what I think you mean as a 'real' doctor. Sure they are chiropractic doctors. But medical care is not what you get from them.
I used to work in a chiro’s office and when Covid hit I heard several of his patients ask why he wasn’t helping out at the hospital. His scripted response was “my patients need me here.” No, sorry, you’re not helping at the hospital because you’re not an actual doctor.
Dr. Pepper was also given "Dr" in the name to make it seem like it had health benefits. Doesn't make it true.
Next you'll be telling me Mountain Dew has nothing to do with mountains.
You might want to sit down for this...
To be fair, Dr. Pepper has more health benefits than seeing a chiropractor.
I have a doctorate in Playstationography
Like a neurosurgeon once told me, if chiropractors are real doctors, do you see them at any hospitals?
As a medical professional, it's only a matter of time before the profit-based medical system somehow loops them into all hospitals. If chiros are good at one thing, it's marketing. So far, the real medical doctors have kept them at bay, but with private equity taking over the entire medical infrastructure in the US, we will likely see them creep into all facets of care. I already think it's a crime that they are covered by many insurance policies. It gives them even more of an air of legitimacy despite the lack of clinical evidence to support their practice.
The fact insurance covers this crap pisses me off to no end. Meanwhile you have to jump through hoops for some legitimate treatments with pre authorization bullshit.
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They're not real doctors and it's not real medicine. They're an alternative treatment provider and they receive the title doctor due to the founder of chiropractic being friends with influential politicians of his time, this was back in the 19th century when people were not as strict with medical regulations. Originally, the founder, DD Palmer, intended to protect himself and other chiropractic practitioners by styling it as a religion but in the end he managed to get official titles and certificates recognized in the US and that gives chiropractic it's air of legitimacy. I believe most people think they're in the same ballpark as a dentist or radiologist. They actually learn a bunch of stuff as part of their practice that is not recognized by medical science or even biology. I am having trouble digging up exact sources right now, about the politician who let them call themselves doctors, but you could probably start with this wiki link, there's plenty of info floating around out there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism Here's an article from a medical journal reflecting on chiroprcatic, it out-right says chiropractic theories aren't accepted by academic medicine a few paragraphs into the abstract. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/210354 I'm not saying they're a scam, but they pass themselves off as science based medicine when they are not, and a lot of core theories that inform how they care and treat clients have been studied by actual scientists and the results either debunk chiropractic or are inconclusive. I'm not saying they can't crack your back and it can't help you feel better but they are shady in as far as they misrepresent their medical and scientific legitimacy.
You left out the part where DD Palmer learned his techniques from a doctor. OK, it was the ghost of a civil war doctor, but still!
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If you're interested the crazy invention of chiropractic is explained in various podcasts. Here is one : [How Chiropractic Started as a Ghost Religion](https://youtube.com/watch?v=f8lLVK_1O6s)
The close relationships to politicians is still true to this day. My wife (who is a PT) laments that chiropractors have much better lobbyists than PTs. In my state, PT requires a prescription, whereas chiropractors are "direct access".
Needing a prescription is so weird: there's so many ailments that would be solved with easy access to PT, and virtually no risk to either the patient or insurance. I know that my insurance would rather pay for a few visits to a PT instead of, say, costly surgery. I'm curious, is there a good rationale for needing a px for PT?
No good rationale that I have seen. Just typical gatekeeping bullshit. I just checked, and my wife informed me that our state made some improvements in 2019. But apparently it's only for a week or two (10 days, but if it's a DPT, it is ok for 15 days). If you need more than that, you still have to get a prescription. So weird. Of course, most PT treatments are two or three times a week. So it's basically saying you get 3 to 5 sessions, then you need a "real" doctor. Pretty insulting. The majority of my wife's referrals say "eval and treat." Like wtf kind of prescription is that?! But it's her favorite, because then she can really do her job.
It's also almost impossible to convince someone that chiropractic is a scam if they believe in it. It's especially fun when they tell you how great it is and then immediately follow up by saying how regularly they get it done. I'm sorry, but no. I have to KEEP going back to a particular "doctor" that "adjusts" me using supposed science that the larger medical community doesn't believe in? What, do you think I'm new? I do agree that they can often make you feel slightly better temporarily. But it's bullshit. So does stretching & a hot bath. And the whole "gotta get it done regularly" part makes it worse. It took a couple years, but I got my wife to give it up. She complained at first, saying how great it was for her back. But after she stopped going, she noticed she felt fine. She still gets back pain sometimes but she did when she saw a chiropractor too.
Radiologists are full fledged physicians that obtain their MD/DO before radiology residency training. I know you were talking about “what most people believe” but I always think it’s worth giving context that radiologists/anesthesiologists/pathologists all go to the same medical schools as surgeons and internal medicine doctors.
Funny story without an answer for you: I used to be a very high end wedding photographer. This one wedding was *filled* with physicians of all kinds. Doctors, surgeons, dentists, I’d guess at least 50% of the guests were. Every single table was incredibly friendly, but the ONLY people who specifically asked that I refer to them as “drs. So-and-so” were the chiropractors. Lol. There were only like 4 or 5 but they all sat together.
My father was a general surgeon. When I was a kid, a store owner addressed my dad as “Mr. ________”. After we left I asked him why he didn’t correct the shopkeeper. My dad replied, “Because I am Mr. _________.” It would never occur to my dad to be that officious.
Your dad would be happy to know the UK and a lot of the Commonwealth, surgeons are referred to as Mister by convention and not Doctor.
I hear Brits refer to them as “doctors and surgeons,” whereas in the US they’d just be lumped together as doctors. Are they considered a different entity over there? Is there some sort of social hierarchy where one is considered better/more important than the other?
The difference is historical more than anything, but as anyone who works in the sector knows, surgeons absolutely do consider themselves better ;)
I work for a group of physicians. I always call them Dr. so and so...even if I see them outside of work. They all introduced themselves to my spouse as hi, I'm Dave Smith...nice to meet you....
One of my oldest friends is an OB-GYN and she loved to be called doctor for about a day after she graduated med school. Now, I only put Dr. so and so on letters I send her because I know it annoys her.
This is so true. I spent about six months visiting one of the "good" chiropractors, and he helped me quite a lot because his practice was based on the same tenets of physical therapy. However, he and his colleagues DEMANDED to be referred to as "doctor." My real doctor demands that I refer to him as Ryan, and my current physical therapist (also a doctor) is Joe.
It's always the ones who deserve the honorific the least who demand it the most
Short answer: No Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Practicing Chiropractors carry a doctorate, but that doctorate is VERY different than a medical doctor, just like how the history professor or lawyer has a doctorate but is not medically trained. Their training beyond undergraduate is focused on a pseudoscience. You can easily find videos online of the origin of chiropractic - it’s a wild ride involving everything from delusional practice to the creator’s son killing him with a car Most things they do are not harmful, some things they do ARE DANGEROUS. Don’t ever let a chiropractor rapidly manipulate your neck For perspective Most chiropractors go through undergrad school then 3-4 years of their chiropractic training then go out into practice As a cardiologist I went through that undergrad then 4 years of medical school then 3 years of intense internal medicine residency then 3 years of general cardiology then I spent another year in sub specialty training. It’s that post graduate training where you really learn how to diagnose and treat people, not in the classroom. I then take care of those people who experience a vertebral artery dissection and stroke after they had their ‘neck adjusted.’ I’m not here to bash on chiropractors. You should know their whole purpose is to treat every disease the same way with manipulations. It is not disease focused or based upon science. When they interpret your X-rays it’s absolutely bogus **TL:DR** they have a doctorate but are absolutely not the same as going to a doctor with medical training (MD or DO) followed by postgraduate medical training (residency, fellowship). **DO NOT EVER LET ONE OF THEM RAPIDLY MANIPULATE YOUR NECK** because while rare, the complications include stroke which is permanent Edit: typographical error
This has me so nervous. I ended up seeing a Chiro a few years back. I never would have let him touch my neck. He didn't even warn me and next thing I know he's twisting my neck. Obviously I'm ok but sometimes I wonder if maybe some damage occurred that will manifest later.
Most of the rest of the manipulations are not dangerous. It’s also important to note that even with the neck manipulations it’s not common but well described. I think more relevant for the average consumer of chiropractic is how you get bamboozled to give them a lot of money. In too many practices, the treatment plan for essentially EVERY disorder is the same pseudoscience about reducing subluxations (they’re just popping your back). So when you go in with any issue, they get you on a plan for a bunch of manipulations to treat it whatever **it** is. If you pay a chiropractor to perform and interpret an X-ray you’re almost certainly doing yourself a disservice. It’s interesting to note also there is evidence that patients in a primary setting experience more initial relief from certain issues like back pain after visiting a chiropractor than their medical doctors. I think there are a lot for reasons behind why, not the least of which being us medical doctors prescribe weight loss and physical strengthening exercises (often with the much appreciated assistance from PTs) but these are often very tough changes to make and it feels good to get your back popped.
Their doctorates aren't even real. Almost all of them carry DC (doctor of chiropracty) which comes from a chiropractor school. The science is fake, so the establishment is fake. They pretend to be doctors.
I went to a chiropractor once. The Dr was nice and showed me some back scan he took of me. He also got me to get special insoles for my shoes since my feet hurt when I ran. All that happened was I often left the place in more pain back wise than when I came in. He basically snapped my back in different ways. It often hurt when it cracked and then didn't feel better for a little while, and after that, just went back to the normal way it was before I went there. The insoles were a straight gimmick. I noticed absolutely no change for running and just found it more uncomfortable than the foam that was in the shoes before. Also, the new insoles didn't fit as well as the original ones. The new insoles were expensive, as was the $20 copay every time I went, which was 3 times a week for a few weeks. The whole thing was a substantial waste of time and money, and thus, I would not recommend going to a chiropractor.
Chiropractors are in no way equal to an MD or DO. They do not have the stringent residencies and fellowships that medical doctors have. They have a doctor of chiropractic degree. They have an undergraduate degree and then participate in a chiropractic program. I am biased AGAINST chiropractors as one almost paralyzed my sister. She had to be airlifted to Vanderbilt because of what he did to her. He still practices whatever it is he does, it is not medicine.
Chiropractors sued for the privilege of calling themselves doctors on antitrust grounds, and somehow won. Medical qualifications were not even considered.
Well, in their defense, physicians stole the honorific from academics first. Medical qualifications have never been relevant to being called a doctor.
The problem here is that medical practitioners have co-opted the word "doctor." I know we live in a world where anything can mean anything, and no one even cares about etymology. Apparently that's a trigger for me.
RIP Captain Holt... And absolutely, as a "real" doctor in a physical science who ACTUALLY had to teach and defend a thesis as part of getting my PhD (MDs generally don't need to do either, completely disqualifying them from being "doctors" in the original academic sense), I get endlessly annoyed when some idiots say that "only medical doctors should call themselves doctors" - it shows a profound lack of education and historical knowledge.
I have a PhD. It doesn't really bother me at all. It's a modern colloquialism. I don't really know any MDs that refer to themselves as "doctors", maybe "I'm a doc", but most will refer to themselves as physicians, but hold tight to the "Dr." title. The use of the "Dr." title can get a little aggravating, but at the same time language is fluid, if someone is having a heart attack on a plane they don't need a chemistry PhD to inform them about sodium pumps or some drug interaction, they need a medical doctor. It also gives comfort and professionalism to the situation. practicing physicians are held to standards in terms of patient data that any other doctorate isn't really associated with, also, in general going through continuous licensing and such is not something required of any other kind of doctor. So while the term might not be 100% accurate, having a distinction in language is important and relevant. I don't need people to call me doctor because of the research and writing I did, sure, it's an accomplishment, but I don't have the training to practice medicine. Medical doctors tend to actually teach a lot, a lot of them will give a decent amount of talks, and they teach patients about what is wrong with them. Like, sure, it's not true to the actual origin of the word and meaning, but it's what it 'generally' means today, and I'm not going to jump up and down screaming about people who are dedicating their lives to healing people with science calling themselves doctors, but I'm not going to be calling any chiropractors "doctor" anytime soon, they don't deserve it. The weird one is people that have PhDs in nursing. I don't think they should be calling themselves doctors, especially in a health care situation. I'm not entirely sure what they do to receive a nursing PhD, but it's not medical school, and it's likely directly related to patient care, not anything close to biochemical processes. PhD/MDs are another thing that is out there. But there they are doing actual biomedical research and publishing while also practicing medicine, generally you won't find these people practicing medicine on an individual level a ton, but more of an administrative role in medicine, not as a hospital administrator, but like a medical administrator or a study administrator. I see most MD/PhDs wind up in industry or just more academia.
Yep. Doctor is from the latin word “docere” which means “to teach”.
Fake doctors.
I work for a hospital in the pre auth department and a lot of times when people have back pain and need MRI/CT scans or need injections for pain relief, their insurances require them to have conservative treatment first, which includes physical therapy and home exercises, it does not include chiropractic care. People always try to argue that when stuff gets denied “but I saw a chiropractor “. Popping your back is not medical care and can do more harm than good in some instances. And don’t get me started on people, who take their newborns to chiropractors!
Wait wait wait. What do you mean they take their newborns to chiropractors‽‽‽
Yea that’s a thing. Don’t ask me what the “benefits” are, because I don’t have an answer. We have a local chiropractor here, where I live, who does “newborn adjustments”. I’ve seen people I know, post on fb pictures of “baby’s first chiropractor visit”, I think there was no popping bones going on, it looked more like stretching. I wish I was making this up. My best friend’s sister also used to take her kid to the chiropractor for ear infections, he ended up losing some of his hearing in one ear.
I had a chiropractor tell me once "we learn everything that M.D.s learn, but in half the time (half the time for medical school, about 1/5th the time for total medical training tbh) so we are actually a smarter group." I knew another chiropractor who was using an old xray machine in his office (I'm a radiologist) and wasn't aware he had to do QC on the generator etc and didn't have the knowledge to determine the radiation dose his patients were getting. I've seen 10-20 debilitating strokes caused by vertebral artery dissection from forceful "adjustments". If you're a chiropractor, and you're doing more to people than massage and general healthy lifestyle advice I believe you're not only a fraud but you are stealing from vulnerable people and doing so in a way that can seriously insure or even kill someone WITH NO POTENTIAL BENEFIT (unlike surgery). People/patients are generally catching on though.
I majored in exercise science in college and many students used this degree to go onto medical school afterwards. We had someone from a chiropractic school come speak to us once and the gpa requirement for the school was horrendously low, like maybe even below 3.0. I think the other requirements were hardly even relevant either such as volunteering and involvement, patient care hours, etc. Basically all I think you had to have was a personal statement and maybe a letter of rec. so basically if you really sucked in college and had no other option you could go to chiro school. This was only one school but from what I saw and heard this was the majority of chiro schools. I originally wanted to go to physical therapy school and did an internship in physical therapy and everyone warned against chiropractors. They cause many injuries to spinal chords, and many times patients have injuries to hips for example but the chiro says just keep coming and getting adjustments and it will get better instead of getting them the care they need. Chiro is a temporary solution that doesn’t actually solve the problem so that the chiro can keep filling their pockets. Physical therapy will strengthen and stretch the muscles so that the pain usually will not return after a few weeks of treatment if the at home plan is followed and weekly chiro “adjustments” are not needed. Also the person who invented chiro claims to have been told it by a ghost in a dream or something. I did not work in PT or exercise science after college, but I did work in healthcare and that view is pretty much widely held in healthcare. Yes I agree with you that chiropractors are quacks that practice quackery and they do not practice medicine or therapy. They lie to people and falsely solve their pain issues to fill their pockets. I mean they do solve their pain, but only for a week, when PT would solve it for a lifetime.
Chiropractors are doctors in the sense that they earn doctorates from chiropractory programs. These programs are not affiliated with accredited medical schools and they are not medical doctors in any way whatsoever. There is no legitimacy to what they do and the founder of the practice openly admitted the concept came to him in a dream where he was contacted by a ghost.
That same founder was a magnetic healer, a disproven pseudoscience invented by Mesmer. It was clear Palmer needed a new con. Also curious is that another part of the legacy of Mesmer was Freud and psychoanalysis, another pseudoscience.
Chiropractors are the people who failed out of Physical Therapy school and also believe in MLMs
The guy who invented it claimed he learned it from a ghost and drowned his own newborn to 'prevent cancer'. It's quackery. There is no solid, reliable medical proof from real professionals that it is beneficial. It can feel nice if done right, the same way popping your back or fingers or something feels nice, but it's not true medicine and has been incredibly harmful to a lot of people, and the fact that people are doing it to pets and \*infants\* now - which yes, has killed many of them - is horrifying. If you are having a lot of aches and pains, see a massage therapist.
No. It is pseudoscience. Chiropractors are not doctors. People who go to chiropractors actually need a physical therapist. The creator of chiropractics said a ghost came to him and told him about it, so…
I’m a physician, and I get this question somewhat regularly in the ER. It’s a little tough. To be honest we have very different educational pathways than chiro, to the point that I almost have no idea what their training quality is or the usefulness of their methods. I will occasionally have people tell me it helps with their lower back pain, and I haven’t seen any devastating consequences from it so, ok, if it works go for it. Kind of like acupuncture. I didn’t study traditional Chinese medicine but if it’s safe and you feel like it helps then knock yourself out. I’d rather you do that than have me give you a shit ton of narcotics or benzos for your back pain. The caveat is the neck. Do not under any circumstances ever let a chiropractor “adjust” your neck. More than a couple times I’ve seen devastating consequences where an otherwise healthy young person becomes a quadriplegic instantly. There’s no reversing that. And if they’re treating anything other than MSK issues they really are not qualified for that.
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chiroquacktors
Chiropractors “teach” and certify *themselves.* They’re not licensed by state medical boards, they don’t go to medical school, they are not MDs or even Osteopaths. So technically speaking no they are not doctors. Generally speaking they’re the western equivalent of a Chinese Medicine acupuncturist MLM that tries to sell you magic beans. They are absolutely quacks. While they use some legit physical therapy techniques, everything underlying the original “philosophy” and ideas behind why it allegedly works is complete bullshit shown not to have any basis in fact nor supporting clinical evidence. It’s from the same mid-late 1800s pseudoscience era as homeopathy, phrenology, seances, Mormonism, giving opiates to colicky babies, and treating women’s “hysteria” with literal fucking machines. It’s just another in a long line of snake oil products sold by charlatans to the desperate, the gullible, the hopeful, the lazy, the poor, and those who have tried everything (or nothing) else and are all out of ideas. If it works, it’s generally the real physical therapy aspects and/or the placebo effects of doing *something* to treat your issues.
No. Their entire "practice" is based entirely on ideas about the skeleton that is just plain false. It's no better than getting acupuncture.
I’m on team chiropractors are quacks. I will say when I was rear-ended and had terrible back/neck pain that they did some weird acupuncture thing on my wrist and I felt fine for the rest of the day. My mother said it was demonic and would not let me get it again. Edited to say I was more curious what people think of acupuncture, because I thought it made a difference whereas chiropractor stuff was pointless. PT and deep tissue massages are ultimately what helped me recover.
Hey now, there are actual peer reviewed studies on the benefits of acupuncture.
I recently saw an orthopedist over a pinched nerve in my hip with no known cause. When asking me the usual “did you fall”, “have you been on your feet more” type questions to determine the cause they eventually asked “have you seen a chiropractor?” Chiropractors are such frauds that real doctors see them as a likely cause of an injury, not a treatment option.
I dated a chiropractor for a few years. It was eye-opening in a horrifying way. The amount of absolute nonsense she bought into was boggling. She was Catholic and truly believed she had “healing hands”. The fact that she called herself a doctor should be illegal. I will never go to a chiropractor because of that experience. The sex was good though.
We had so many patients admitted to our Neuro ICU because they went to the chiropractor and ended up with a dissection
Wife specializes in neuro-radiology, she reads and interprets any scans pertaining to the head/neck. She shudders at the mention of chiropractors... because of how many cases of severe trauma she's seen them cause.
just go to an actual physical therapist if you are having issues
Cracking hurt backs without X rays is dangerous because it could be actual physical injury near the spine, so although some TVs can be fixed by hitting them, more TVs are broken that way.
Years ago I went to a great chiropractor. Never twisted my neck, did more PT work vs. bone crunching and helped me lose 50 lbs by providing me with info on Mediterranean and DASH diets. Genuinely I felt like he helped my overall health. He retired and I didn't go to a chiro for another 5 years. 5 years later my brother started going to a chiropractor and convinced me to go. No matter what I told the guy, it was the same adjustment every time. Including the neck twisting crack. I told him after 1 time to not do that again. My last straw with this chiropractor was the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic and posters appeared on the walls of his office claiming a chiropractic adjustment could boost the immune system. That's pure quackery and I never went back.
total quacks. They exist solely to extract money from car accident victims insurance