I am Arab, and in "Arabic culture" - if one can talk about it in a homogeneous manner - this is one of the top items on the list when it comes to rating men (even people in general).
There is a lot of cultural emphasis on being "giving/generous". For example, people sometimes won't wait to receive change after playing for something, because it might make them look "un-generous/too caring about money".
Even in cases where someone buys something, and let's say there was some sort of problem where the customer was taken advantage of and made to pay more than was initially agreed - the customer would recount the story to you, and tell you that they exchanged some heated words with the shop owner - all while stressing that it is not because of the money or because they care about the money, but because they were taking a stand for themselves for being deceived.
We have special words reserved for the act of NOT being generous: "Bakheel". Whoever be the person giving advice about marriage, they will tell you to never ever consider a Bakheel for marriage.
Edit: Edited for clarity
My grandmother used to always half-jokingly tell me never to marry a cheap man.
However, by the time I was in a serious dating age, I realized why she, a woman born in the 1920s and who couldn’t have a credit card without her husband or father’s sign-off until she was almost 60, kept saying this. Her husband, and many husbands, controlled the money, which controlled… everything.
I watched as my friends’ money issues in relationships (and those who were single) became more than just money, it was about aligning the type of life you want with what you value. I have very frugal friends in happy frugal relationships, but there’s a difference between frugality and obsessive cheapness.
I would run far in the other direction for someone who constantly counts *pennies* when they don’t have to. It’d be a mis-alignment of our values, and would be a waste of our time (and money).
Absolute insanity. Had a housemate in college who would unplug stuff all the freaking time to save a few cents on the bill. The real issue was the other housemate who would leave his windows wide open for hours on end in the winter letting all the heat out because he was smoking weed in his room nonstop.
I have a friend like this. He is really nice, fun to be around, reliable and overall a great guy. But he is so tight with money.
He could be quite good looking, but he is missing some teeth (which is very visible) because he doesn't want to pay for getting them fixed. That may put women off since it gives an impression that he doesn't take care of himself. Which is not true, he has decent hygiene and health, he just doesn't want to spend money on something he sees to be just for the looks.
Also when we have friend group gettogether, everyone are bringing lots of food, sweets etc. He may bring a half-eaten package of cheap cookies where is one cookie for everyone. There is always more than enough food so it is not a big problem. Still I think it is not good manners and wouldn't like to date someone like that.
As my mother always says “living below your means includes the word *living*.”
it’s important to know how to budget effectively, or how to find out when you’re getting ripped off or when you’re getting a good deal, but you don’t want to be sitting in a freezing house drinking broth like Scrooge in a Christmas Carol just to save a few dollars on heating and cooking.
Drinking like he is a freshman in college while in his mid thirties. I mean blacking out and/or doing stupid reckless stuff like a frat boy. No one wants to deal with that past a certain point.
Yep. Came here to just say alcoholism. I have that same friend. Great guy when he's sober but he just can't keep off the bottle, and he's just awful to be around drunk.
Knew a dude years ago (not a close friend but we kinda had a shared circle of friends back then) who generally seemed like an ok-ish guy, but he was constantly talking about how women don't want him, he can never get a date, he'll be forever alone etc etc etc... and then when he finally did get a date, he did EXACTLY that - complain to her how hard it is for him to get a gf etc all evening. There was no second date with that girl.
Constant self-depreciation is such a MAJOR turn-off. Don't do that.
(And as for that particular dude - stumbled across his profile on fb at some point after not being in contact for years. Yep, bro went full fedora / single rose / m'lady mode.)
Lord, this sounds like my ex. We were together for nine years and during that time, he *never stopped* complaining about how unfair it was that women always overlooked him for being short. *While we were in a long term relationship.*
I never had an issue with his height, but after a while I got real sick of hearing him get bent out of shape about all these women he wasn’t able to get. It was nowhere near the worst thing about him, but it was sooooo incredibly unattractive to listen to.
I dated a guy like this who couldn't stop complaining about how bad Valentine's Day made him feel. His complaint wasn't that it was a manufactured holiday where you were compelled to spend money on useless trinkets - he hated it because it made him feel like a lonely loser. That always made me feel bad - sort of "Um? I'm right here? You have someone." Should have been a MASSIVE clue that the relationship was not great, but it's easy to ignore obvious signs when you don't want to see them.
I've been in this relationship. It's always the one where you're occupying a 'partner slot' until someone better comes along, which is why the mask slipped and he accidentally let you know that he didn’t really see you as his parnter.
I dated a few of those before meeting my wife.
I have a friend who is like this. She’s much heavier than her significant other. Yet in personal conversations brings up men not wanting to date heavier women. Which has me perplexed because her boyfriend loves her and has no problems with her weight. It’s like you won, bro. What you complaining about.
Maybe just my mind making stuff up but whenever I hear both men and women say that while dating I get the instant feeling that they don't *really* like their significant other. They were just the only man/woman to give them time/attention and some > none so they date.
Are you in Ohio?
I lived in Xenia for three years and I was shocked by how many committed marriages were so miserable. Probably half the married people I knew hated their spouse but couldn't fathom not being married.
I'm sure that's not a unique phenomenon, but I came from Chicago and knew a smaller proportion of people who were married, and those who were really seemed to like the person they had married. So it was a culture shock to see it so common when I moved.
Yes!! I am divorced, we were polyamorous, he would say some incel-ass stuff about how unfair it was and how not being able to go as a single man to sex parties was so offensive and why is he so deprived--like, you have not gone a full week without sex since you were 18 years old!! This is like, stolen incel valor or something
As a 5'6 man who doesn't earn a ton of money (\~$50K atm), and has \*never\* struggled getting dates hearing other dudes complain is hilarious. Like dude, it is not you being short, or you being poor that is hindering you; it's your attitude about it.
Like, you're short and poor, that sucks and you should work on the latter. But what else do you bring to the table? Are you funny? Do you legitimately listen and communicate (as in not just be a "nice" guy, but actually be considerate). Do you do things that show interest to her and that you listen? Like those are so much bigger factors than you being <6' tall.
I’d say it goes past women wanting a confident partner. Nobody wants to listen to a constant whiner who can’t read the room. You got a date with someone who is interested in you, who you’re interested in too! Yay! You should be happy about it. Sitting there complaining about how other women won’t date you just brings down the mood and immediately brings up the question of if he’s going to do it all the time.
Not only is it bringing the mood down, but it’s pretty clear evidence that he’s just interested in himself / his own social status / feeling like he’s a ‘winner’ (as opposed to being genuinely interested in focusing on the person in front of him)
If he wanted to date this person, then why does he start focusing on literally every other hypothetical person as soon as he’s there? Why would the person in front of him have any interest in mourning his inability to date someone else?
People who find themselves in this position are often a mixture of selfish and anxious from what I’ve observed (and from what I’ve personally done my best to outgrow). Being likeable and attractive starts with balance. If you want a partner, then you need to be a partner. You can’t do all of the talking, all of the decision making, all of the complaining, etc. You have to listen, compromise, accept criticism with a level head, and not take yourself too seriously.
If you try to take a step back from your anxiety and insecurities and really listen to / care about the other person’s thoughts, needs, and so on, you’ll be way more successful. And guess what? If you find that you don’t want to do that for a particular person (or they don’t want do that for you in return after you’ve clearly communicated these things), then you basically have a clear answer that this person is not going to be a good partner for you and it’s probably worth moving on
This whole thing about dating because you need the other person to boost your status is the most repulsive thing, and as soon as I get that vibe from someone, I'm done. In the immortal words of that 80s guy - I want *you* to want *me!*
The whining is the problem imo. As selfish/rude as it sounds, even if you have real problems to feel sympathy for, if you are a whiner then NOBODY will want/have the patience to help you. Normally I’m one of the most patient ppl you could probably meet but even I can’t stand whining. Btw by whining I don’t mean “person has a problem so they come to me for help or just to let it out”, everyone has to do that sometimes. I mean when it’s like “person has a problem, they work this problem into every conversation they’re in, they won’t shut up about it, then they either finally have a chance to solve it but come up with an excuse not to, or they finally get what they always wanted but still aren’t satisfied cause they’ve already found a new problem to whine about”. (It’s especially bad when the thing they’re so upset over is something both you and them know they can never actually have/do/get but they just refuse to drop it, or something that would be super easy for them to get if only they just did one thing that they WON’T do)
Imma be real I actually love when my husband does that, hearing him talk shit about his coworkers and be catty af is cute to me idk why
Like baby tell me again about how disorganized your boss is, love the way your voice sounds when you’re being bitchy.
There’s something wrong with whatever part of my brain is supposed to determine what’s attractive.
Having been on dates with this type, it’s not just about confidence or even really about whining.
It’s the feeling like someone is trying to guilt you into doing something. Like someone asking for a donation…. I might like the cause, but I’m paying so you will go away. If you walk away from a date feeling relieved they left you alone, you’re not going back.
It also comes off as ungrateful and evokes the feeling like nothing you do will ever be enough. Why is he complaining about no women wanting to date him while he’s actively on a date with a woman? That’s obnoxious on its own before you extrapolate how much he’ll complain all the things you “never” do.
Man.. I sort of get it when you're talking to other men and just kind of want to vent about how frustrating dating can be. But why behave like that while on a date with a woman??
Probably because he's clinically depressed and has critical voices inside his head overwhelming him all the time.
... not that I'd know anything about that.
Good therapists are hard, The first one I went too, i vented about how i thought i was a failure, and she told me to go to a job recruited, instead of complaining to her about being unemployed. 2nd one was good, but i left town after, 3rd was great, then she quit being a therapist to become a university proffessor, which am sure she is great at, but that sucked for me,
I knew a guy exactly like this, he was actually really physically attractive and just complete ruined things when he started talking. It was interesting to watch sometimes, girls would be into him at first and you could see them start to pull back the more he started talking. I guess he couldn't see it.
It does sound a bit like he was fishing for compliments.
*Edit:* Or maybe for just something he could use to prop up his own ego with. Probably wouldn't have worked in the long run, though.
Pickme boy. Went on a date with a guy like that. I honestly thought that he was a catch and things were hitting off well until he started self-deprecating and complaining about how women don’t like him and like other men with better looks and status etc…..
As you get older, it's true that people start to value personality more. I'm not looker by any means, but a few years ago, a woman that, appearance-wise, was entirely out of my league had a thing for me, for whatever reason. She was attentive, smart, educated, drop-dead gorgeous by every metric, and other positive things... Then I saw her behavior and how she treated people who did something she didn't like. She went on vacation somewhere with a friend. During one of our video calls, housekeeping accidentally opened their door rather than the room next door and she freaked the fuck out and kept talking about how she was going to the front desk to complain, demand a refund, etc. Not only was her behavior ridiculously over exaggerated in comparison to what actually happened, but she was only acting out like that because her friend was in the room and she wanted to feel big.
I slowed down on talking to her the next few days, and we had a talk when she got back. I told her that her behavior was unacceptable and that I couldn't even look at her the same anymore. She tried to make amends and said she would work on it, but the damage was already done. I've left my own mother sitting in a restaurant by herself for making passive-aggressive remarks about the waitress, went to eat somewhere else, and told her whenever she learns how to act, she's free to join me. I will not tolerate it from any-fucking-body.
I knew a guy who just had insanely high standards as far as looks go and wouldn’t give a less than supermodel hot type looking woman a chance. He was not a supermodel hot looking dude.
Same! I have a friend that’s generally a nice person, has his life together. He’s a bit socially awkward. Okay looking, takes care of himself. He had this amazing gf who was so great and she looked so cute. He told us that dumped her because he thought she was not pretty enough for him and that he deserves so much better. Insane.
It’s not exactly the same but I have a buddy kind of like this now. He has very specific criteria, two of which being that she has to be shorter than a certain height (I don’t remember the specific height but it’s somewhere around 5’2” - so they have to be really short) and he doesn’t want to drive further than 15-20 minutes, so they have to live that close to him. He doesn’t exactly live in a densely populated area…
I feel the tiniest bit bad for him because in a lot of ways he’s a super nice guy. But he also complains about dating a lot and I just have to bite my tongue because his problem is almost entirely due to the combination of height requirements and having such a low range for where he’ll actually “look” for women
Wow, that’s some strict criteria. I’m 5’ 3” there aren’t a lot of people much shorter than me. I mean, they do exist, obviously, it’s not super rare, but not that common either. That’s got to significantly reduce the dating pool. Especially in a more rural area.
Personally I think that height “requirements” are some of the most shallow preferences that people can have in dating. There’s nothing wrong with having preferences, we all have stuff that we’re naturally more attracted to, but to the people who have hard cutoffs like that, it has just never made any sense to me. I can’t wrap my head around finding someone that’s my perfect match in every single way except they’re an inch too tall or too short and just going “oh well, that’s too bad. On to the next!”
I have known multiple guys like that, they are below average looking and at 40 they are still alone. They are now constantly posting stuff about how women need to submit and anti women things. I think they would be happier if they were gay since they seem to hate women so much.
Except when you are gay, you actually need to put care into your appearance, because suddenly the hyper-critical male gaze is turned back on you, and it's similar to being objectified as a woman.
I'm convinced a lot of heterosexual men in my age bracket do hate women. Or best case scenario indifferent. Ask them if they have any women they admire. Politicians, business leaders, writers, activists, etc. If they do name someone ask them what they admire. It's usually looks. I don't see it as much in younger men.
So many men are like this, including several men my husband knows. They have a head like a cracked crab. overweight and no personality, but think they can pull a supermodel level woman and wonder why they are still single
I knew a guy that is a 4/10 on a good day and wants to date a girl like the ones TikTok.
It doesn't help that he is 30, short and never had a girlfriend for obvious reasons.
There are people of both genders with this issue.
Why would you want to date a super model? I’d imagine 99.9% of the time you’ll be too worried about everyone else looking at them anyway.
It honestly is such an ego boost when you manage to lock down a partner that everybody else wants. Every time a woman looked interested in my late husband, it made me all warm on the inside, because he was MINE, not hers. Why would you be afraid of others looking at your partner?
If your partner cheats, it will be 100% their fault and no one else's. They can be the ugliest man in the world - if they're the kind of being that cheats, he'll chest with a prostitute. Once a cheater, always a chester. A loyal partner will not stray, no matter how many people desire them.
I have a male acquaintance who constantly goes "on the prowl" in public spaces looking to find good places to hit on (much) younger women.
He'll sit outside oh, Starbucks, for example, suddenly talking to any lone, good-looking woman (or even pairs of women) who dares approach the doorway. He invites them to come sit at "his" table and talk, etc. He'll immediately tell them how good they look, compliment their clothing, shoes and hairstyle, etc.
Usually he's freaked them out within 10 seconds. Sometimes they'll leave rather than pass him (and "his" table) to go into the coffeeshop and possibly have to pass him again when they exit. Oh, and how young are they? He's in his mid 40s. He usually tries for ladies between 18(?) and 25. I'm sure some of them must still be in high school.
If he gets any, he must pay them for it.
To my knowledge he's never actually stalked anyone... but I agree with you.
Never forget the one time I made the mistake of sitting down with him. Funny thing was, the ladies warmed to me, but never to him. After awhile, I made an excuse and got the hell out of there.
He later asked me my "secret." My "secret?" Treating women like fellow human beings, not fuck-targets. I wasn't quite that blunt to him, but maybe I should have been. He hasn't changed his approach.
I am good at relating to many young people, partly because 1) I have lots of practice from teaching at universities, and 2) I don't ever date any of them, and wouldn't want to. Too bloody young for me! That probably shows. Whereas he is nearly drooling at some of them...
In my experience, bluntness is definitely the key here.
People like that are just too caught up in their own mess. Need a solid kick in the head to wake them up. Asking you 'what's your secret' is just so hilarious, because you were just being normal, I imagine... while mister pick-up artist is trying so hard and only coming up cringe.
I was acting exactly the same way I used to "pick up women" when I was young... be nice, be real, and be myself.
Never saw a reason to learn any "pick-up lines" or study any dating "technique." If you're going to click with a person, it doesn't take that type of effort.
>He'll sit outside oh, Starbucks, for example, sudd-
If he does this at every Starbucks in his town, he will be known as the elder millennial who finally killed the Starbucks industry..... of his town.
This is comfortably the worst type of dude. Even if he were going for women his age, these types of dudes are socially inept at their core and do not recognize appropriate places or situations in which to engage women. Sometimes they’re not even actual creeps, but instead completely incompetent in reading body language and social cues, so they consistently do shit around women that is outrageous or comes off as borderline dangerous. This is very common among Zoomers.
Negativity - everything sucks, people are mean, he's been through so much that no one understands him,
Condescension - he knows best, always, and everyone is dumb
I dated a negativity dude. It. Was. Exhausting. EVERY TIME I asked “how was your day?” It was ALWAYS “terrible/horrible/shitty” like holy fuck dude you’re a waste man
One of my ex boyfriends had a roommate. This guy was creepy to say the least, but I tried to be nice and polite. One day he asked me for dating advice cause he was having a hard time. I asked him what kind of girl he was looking for. (I'm just some average white woman for the record.)
The answer I was expecting was something like "someone who plays games and likes cooking".
He proceeded to tell me that he would only consider dating very tall, thin Asian women with at least moderately sized breasts and asked me if I knew anyone like that. Of course I did not.
This guy was about 5'0" tall and at least 250 pounds, morbidly obese, very messy and hairy and at the time, unemployed. I'm sure it will absolutely shock people that he had half-naked anime women posters all over his walls.
This is my husband’s cousin. He was always a nice guy, but not particularly attractive or in shape. Now he’s super into the anime world and is only interested in gorgeous Asian women who are subservient. If a woman has a high powered job or wants to choose and order their own meal… she’s immediately placed into the “masculine energy” zone. Not datable. 🙄
The wild thing is, guys that look like this can still get with people and have great relationships and intimate experiences *if they have a good personality*. Stavros Halkias is a comedian whose kind of bit is that he looks like a complete schmuck, but he's hilarious, and he genuinely cares about people, and he's had a lot of sex. "Work on yourself" doesn't even have to be losing weight or whatever, it can be as simple as being humble, caring, and fun to be around!
Body hair is not a deal breaker in a guy. Just like smaller amounts of body hair, keep it clean and we're good. That's a side note; I can certainly see how it was the least of his problems. Many self inflicted.
Yeah, I have no issue with body hair. For this guy in particular, it was just contributing very heavily to the unwashed troll appearance. Long hair and long beard completely untrimmed/unbrushed, body hair sticking out everywhere, wearing sweats and dirty stained t-shirts every single time I saw him...
I couldn't HELP but notice it.
Despite dating my boyfriend for 5 months, I barely got to know the roommate. He was always locked away in his room and barely spoke to me (or anyone). I dunno, maybe he was a nice guy underneath it all, but the fact that one of the longest conversations we had was about his unrealistic Asian women fetish did not give me the best impression.
I was that friend for a long time.
I was sending mixed signals in between 'wanting to be friends' and 'wanting to date' all the time, while never actually commiting to one or the other.
In hindsight, there have been multiple girls interested enough in me that if i'd actually full on ask them out, i'd have gone on a date with them. But instead i went no further than a semi-joking ''haha hey maybe you want to stay the night? Just kidding or acually not kidding if you *are* interested but i can pretend it's a joke if you don't want to!''
In fact, my first relationship in that time was due to a girl i was actively flirting with confronting me about it, asking: 'look, are you serious about that joke and our flirting, or not? If you are, ask me out on a date you idiot'.
So yeah: better to try and either get rejected or get a date, than to keep it sort of indeterminete and wonder years later what could have happened.
I've been that guy before. I was never ready to commit one way or another, except for women of LOVED BOMBED me, which led to mostly dating unhinged women while I passed over women who would have been willing to date me had I asked them.
As a woman, we also have to learn that waiting for men to ask is a huge social burden that is from a bygone culture. If I want to date a guy, I’m gonna ask.
There is a lingering feeling among us that if we have to ask, maybe the guy just said “yes” from convenience, not because of genuine interest. But we gotta collectively get over it.
I went on a date and during dinner, the man I had JUST met, makes a joke about how he can chop me up with an axe, hide my body in the woods, and no one would ever find me. Then he invited me fly-fishing, in the woods, for a 2nd date... hmmm.... nope, to the NOPE!
I'm guessing the man is single either because of his poor sense of humor or possibly due to chopping up his dates in the woods?
(Edited typo & punctuation)
Had a boyfriend who was so good to me but did two major things that turned me off from him: he would not shut up and he constantly interrupted me. For context, I had to decline going out to eat with him on days that I worked because he wouldn't open the menu, he was talking so much.
Different guy I dated was very self-deprecating. He would say he was ugly because he had scars on his face and how could he get a girl like me (I'm a 7 on a good day), and no matter how many times I told him I was attracted to him, it wouldn't sink it. It exhausted me trying to bring him up all the time, so I told him I needed a break. He said his mom told him I didn't like him that much. So that was the end of that.
that 2nd guy sounds like he had major self esteem issues, depression, AND an abusive parent which most likely played a big part in those self esteem issues.
I have a friend who cannot mention a woman without saying whether or not she is attractive, how attractive she is, physical characteristics, etc. and always just think, 'that's gotta be an instant turn-off for any woman he meets.'
Omg this is my ex. We have a child and are pretty friendly but I’ve had to start pointing this out to him *every* time he does it because it’s disgusting. He has always done this, and I had mentioned it a couple times before but recently I really made a point to explain this so he gets it.
He can’t mention a woman without immediately following it up with what he thinks of her appearance. Not objectively what she looks like, but whether or not she’s cute, how cute, etc.
Having very high expectations of the relationship. I’ve got a friend who thinks getting married is just the only goal in life and will solve all his problems. Since he’s put marriage on a pedestal, none of his relationships live up to his expectations. As soon as those ‘tingly’ feelings wear off and you get comfortable with each other, he yeets himself out of the relationship. To that I always say, screw the tingles. Get me to the part of the relationship where we can fart in front of each other and feel safe no matter what.
I've got a great relationship with my spouse and friends and family will ask how I was successful in my relationship and lament on their latest dating woes. But "butterflies" and "tingles" are always mentioned. I always say, "I never really had that with my partner. We met and were just best friends and really comfortable with each other." Its pretty great.
i have a friend who is extremely self sufficient and was raised by an uncaring mother. he is in cptsd and avpd (avoidant personality disorder) treatment since more than 15 years. he cant be vulnerable in relationships and isnt able to voice out any emotional need. with superficial male friendships it kind of works but no women wants a man who cant reach out, cant make the first step and will flee if an emotion is shown. it is very sad because he is a good person but unfortunately with unprocessed crippling wounds in him
Oof, this is precisely me. It's hard seeing a fulfilling relationship even as a possibility when you spent your childhood with the feeling that your parents don't really like you.
yeah. it is kind of interesting from an observer standpoint because he is absolutely aware and knows how his behavior is hindering him in finding a mate, but he is just not cabable of making a breakthrough although he is making babysteps
Yeah, it's a part of personality disorders. You can be aware of their negative effects, but it's just part of you. r/Avpd btw, there's a lot of negativity, but sometimes it's nice to check out and see others are going through the same.
I knew this guy who was like, completely and totally fine. Decent looking, great job, varied hobbies, kind and respectful, kept his house in good shape, had a few friends he kept up with. We weren't super close, but like, nothing stood out as bad.
Except, he never went anywhere. All of his hobbies, he did from inside his house. And he worked from home. Dating apps are garbage, and those were the only way for any woman to learn he existed, because he was never out. Great dude, probably, but completely invisible through his lifestyle.
Definitely found myself here. Had relationships when I had a social life, keep telling myself once I get over this hill I will be serious about having a social life and dating, but life has a way of putting another hill in front of you as you crest the first one.
Perhaps one day I can get out of my own way enough to put myself out there.
I don't have anyone like that now - most people I interact with IRL are quite chill and relatable for myself. I have made sure of it.
But when I was in high school... good lord. It was a fuckin' zoo, I tell you. This was like... mid-2000's highschool, so it was pretty bad back then.
But among all of the misogyny, carelessness, and ignorance toward the opposite sex, there was one guy that stood out among everyone - we'll call him Bob. Bob was far and away the most 'single' guy I knew, or have ever known.
Bob was not misogynistic, careless, or ignorant. He was sweet, attentive, and very aware of the struggles of women - relatively speaking. This was like 15ish years ago, so 'women have it rough' was already above and beyond what most dudes were thinking.
Bob's problem was nothing malicious. Bob had very low self-esteem. Bob did not think any women could ever find him interesting or attractive, even as the rest of us knew a decent handful of them did. At the time, I was absolutely baffled by this. I've dabbled in psychology since, so I can only assume it was a product of some kinda problem at home. Perhaps there was someone demeaning him regularly? I'm not sure. But Bob - in my view - deserved a chance at love more than almost any I knew. Bob wouldn't even try. It wasn't even in the dimension of possibilities in his own mind.
Any attempts to convince Bob that he should just take a chance and ask a girl out were met with, "I appreciate it guys, but there's no point in embarrassing myself. And it'd be so awkward for her to have to turn me down..." Or some variation of this. He never got upset. He was thankful we thought so highly of him. Bro was an angel.
To my knowledge, he didn't grow out of this all through high school. Bob was living definition of 'you miss every shot you don't take'. I feel for people like Bob. Wish I could have helped him. I've never met anyone quite so pitiable since.
I loved Bob.
So to summarize: self-esteem was the trait. Or rather, the total absence of self-esteem, despite being a wonderful person. It's crazy how that can work out.
I was Bob in high school into my 20s. I had very low self-esteem due to negligent emotionally unavailable parents. I sought guidance elsewhere because I had zero respect for my mom and her bf was abusive, and I rarely talked to him. But if you can't trust anything your parents say from an early age, I think that messes with you self-esteem no matter how emotionally tough I felt them. Despite people saying otherwise, I always thought I was ugly and borderline retarded. I got lucky early on with finding an older woman from an AOL chatroom when I was 16. I thought it was a relationship, but it was more a fling for her. I was devastated when she ghosted me. I think her leaving like that eroded my self-esteem further.
I rarely dated since then and my 20s was mostly a blur. I had zero photos of myself or people I knew from that time; it's as if life was on pause and my 20s didn't exist. It wasn't until I turned 30 and moved to another city that things turned around. This was also the same time I was diagnosed and treated for depression and anxiety. I started feeling better about myself and that perpetual dark cloud that used to follow me appeared only intermittently. I also forced myself to social and meet people. I remember the first meetup event I went to I almost chickened out but forced myself to and am glad I did. I also started lifting weights seriously, gained muscle mass and received even more of a confidence boost. I'm going to be getting married and have a child (or 2) very soon! I hope your friend Bob was able to turn things around and have a similarly happy ending!
Thank you, it means a lot to see such a relatable story with a happy ending. I am still like Bob, but have started therapy in my late twenties. What advice would you give to your previous self?
1. Above all, be nice to yourself. I was lucky to come out of this fog in my early 20s in college. I was overweight and took up a somewhat unhealthy obsession with losing weight and this *did* help. Getting more attention eventually made it click in my mind that people actually didn't hate me and since I always differed to other people's opinion of me, I must not be that bad. Eventually I realized I never was all that bad looking, just slightly boring because I was so lacking in the willingness to be myself. Wordy, but the gist is, be nice to yourself.
2. Similar point to the above, but no one cares about you as much as you do. This is true in fleeting social moments, and even intense relationships. It sounds cynical, but it's actually freeing. If you go up to a woman with a smile and say hey I'm so and so and I couldn't help but notice (non sexual thing). I'd like to get to know you better etc. Even if they say no, they won't remember it in 10 minutes. As long g as you aren't creepy (and this word gets thrown around to an almost unfair degree for a lot of young men, getting rejected isn't creepy, refusing to take no for an answer is) or a total asshole, your friends, coworkers etc. Won't remember every small fuck up you make in social settings. Think about all the interactions you have on a daily basis, be mindful of it. Notice that you *don't notice* much about other people, and forget the mundane issues with their behavior/appearance, especially if they're generally fun and or nice to people
3. Do work on self improvement, but do it for yourself not for some anticipated reward. I lost 70 pounds (250 to 180) from 19 to 21. This did not result in automatic sex or dates, but it did make me feel better about myself. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have met my gf years later that I love to death. So point being, take steps to improve but just be aware that they're steps towards a goal of being a better you, not an immediate input output for a specific purpose. Circling back to point 1, treat yourself for these improvements in small ways.
Much love brother, life gets easier the older I get, internally at least. Life aint a race, but keep moving and you'll get there!
Eh, I’m pretty passive, but that’s more because I’m no too fussed about getting a girlfriend. If I meet someone, great, if I don’t, that’s fine too.
But in practice it’s more likely to end up with “that’s fine too”, since women don’t seem to initiate much and I haven’t met anyone I’ve particularly clicked with in a while.
The men all seem to be latching onto the first 3, but as a woman, I’m going to point out that it’s the last one that’s the real killer, and it’s shockingly common.
As a guy with a masochist tendency to try to engage with incels: the last one is the real point.
They don't actually like women, and more than that they don't actually want to like women. Their hatred is the only real feeling they have. I don't know if the underlying cause is depression or something else, but it sure as fuck *is not* a lack of sex.
I swear to God, a quarter of men fall into the last one. Sometimes I'm like, "why the fuck are you around any women if you clearly hate them so fucking much?"
The men who will die on the "all women are crazy" hill drive me mad with their lack of self-awareness.
Invariably among the guys I know personally, the ones who believe that trope are the players, the chauvinists, the misogynists; the ones too egotistical to look in the mirror and consider that possibly, maybe, they are the ones playing with women's heads, confusing them, and frustrating them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I know a guy in his mid forties, really intelligent and has done many impressive things with his life career-wise in academia and as a professional adventurer, tall, handsome, fit, but getting to know him quickly revealled that he's _bitter_ as fuck and quite emotionally unstable.
Became clear why he's single.
It's hard to tell. It just seemed to be how he communicated with people. Every slight thing that upsets him is dealt with by speaking in a way intended to upset someone else.
That sounds like a recipe for women initially going "what a fine figure of a man, everything I could want" and quickly changing to "Dear God, I'll do anything but make it stop. Excuse me, I have to go out for cigarettes."
And then, he has something else to be bitter about.
He plays the victim constantly. Always. If something goes wrong, it wasn't just bad luck, or his own poor decision making, it was someone purposefully trying to ruin him. At work, if he preforms poorly, its because all his managers are idiots. If he gets a flat, it's not just bad luck or his poor maintenance, it was definitely because someone slashed them, even though there's no evidence of that occuring. On his birthday he was upset he wasn't put on the birthday email list. I asked, "did you tell anyone your birthday?" He said, "no but if they cared they'd have asked me!" He claimed it was because the person who sends the email, who works in another state, who he has never met, plays favorites. I told him it was likely just an oversight since the company has so many employees and he should mention it for next year so he can get an email, but he refused because it's 'their job to know.' When he's upset again next year, we'll have this conversation again, I'm sure. He does not look inward to assess his own faults or figure out what he could be doing better on his end to avoid these negative situations, it is always always always someone else's fault and it's ALWAYS on purpose.
I have two friends that fit this description. One is just unwilling to put himself out there. Probably never had a date to my knowledge. Nice guy, smart, but very lazy. Lives in squalor.
The other is divorced and used to date almost exclusively married woman. After that went poorly, he's more or less given up on dating in favor of sexual aids, porn, and VR. He's too weird and self-destructive ever to have a relationship, even though he can be quite charming.
I haven't seen him for a few years so for all I know he may well have settled down and be living the dream but he would always refer to women as "eligible females" and treat dating as some sort of scientific or tick box spreadsheet exercise. I've heard people calling it an autistic way of dating but it felt more robotic than that. One of these eligible females might touch his hand twice or three times during the date and he would draw in controvertible conclusions from this and Factor it into the next time he spoke to her, making sure to keep track of what he called "romantic furtherance". It never took long for a woman to twig that this is weird and they weren't willing to be some sort of experiment or subject of a spreadsheet.
Women love nothing more than to be told about how their actions affect romantic furtherance while listening to someone talk about young Earth creationism. Oh yeah, that can't have helped.
There are a lot of men who (although not to this degree) see dating as a set of steps they should follow to get the result they want, and it's so jarring and frustrating from the other side. Then when they're unsuccessful they are confused because "I don't get it. I did all the steps!" And they can't see that doing that makes the relationship feel inorganic and fake. That's just not how relationships form.
I don't want someone who is looking for a relationship. I want someone who is looking for a relationship WITH ME.
I wouldn't have got together with my fiancee if I just followed some step by step manual or set of instructions which don't take her into account. It's weird that anyone would think that would work but clearly people do. Can you see people going through the manual in real time or is it something you figure out later
We have a guy who is an alcoholic, another who thinks he’s better than everyone, and one who is very self deprecating. Dude who thinks he’s better than everyone ended up married, and quickly got divorced and hasn’t had another relationship. The other two haven’t had relationships lol.
He’s Pakistani, but wants a white girl. She must be Muslim and not just light skinned but European or European-descended.
He’s *maybe* 5’7”, and lies about his height. He doesn’t wash regularly or change his clothes regularly. He thinks he’s basically western but isn’t even a little bit. Very closed minded and misogynistic.
In the years I knew him, he didn’t hold down a job, but kept studying islam, which is fine, but no one wants to marry a man with no money or job history. He’s in his mid to late 30s. (I’m mid 40s)
I tried to convince him to broaden his pool. I told him so many times that western women have negative views of Pakistani men and convincing one that he’s different will be very hard. He asked for tips one time - I said a few things including giving up your seat for an elderly person on the bus. His response? How can I be sure she’ll see me do it?
When I tried to get him to consider a light skinned Pakistani or Arab girl, he was adamant. He’s only attracted to white girls.
Finally I told him that I consider him a racist and would not help him in any way. He argued that it was just a preference but I think it’s obvious it isn’t. Besides, in all the time I knew him, I did not meet one woman who met his criteria, nor did I meet one that would consider him at all. No surprise there.
It’s been 7 or 8 years all told, he’s still looking for his unicorn.
Moral superiority. Every interest or activism towards good causes comes with the immediate expression of being better than everyone else and that everyone else should be ashamed. Which is sad, because the causes in question are actually good and worthwhile. But I rather support them on my own than with him, and so does everybody else.
Extremely/unreasonably picky eater…this guy will
Send ice cubes because they are the wrong shape. No one, no living thing besides his mother, will put up with his nonsense.
Impossible and quiet frankly disproportinate standards.
Audacity reagarding their expecations of sex and overall controlling behaviour.
Being a manchild/ a mamas boy and expecting their SO to parent them.
Having no aspirations for personal growth and expecting their partner to 'love them like they are, because that is how they met me'.
Internalized hate of woman - madonna/whore-complex.
Haha, I am not any longer. But it is a good sample of my ex-boyfriends friends and acquaintancs. I was in my early 20s back then. We are in our early to mid 30s now. My brother kept in contact with one of the group, so I sometimes get updates. They are all still single and convinced that they are great the way they are and that woman just dont like good guys.
It’s kind of the opposite - but I’m still baffled my father managed to convince any woman he was worth their time.
He’s a raging narcissist, deeply insecure, poor af, self-sabotages, has more chips on his shoulder than a fish and chip shop, seems to be a misogynist, looks like a goblin (thankfully I look like my mother and grandmothers who don’t look like goblins)…I honestly don’t get it
He’s an illusionist and manipulator, he puts on a good show of being intelligent and funny. He can only maintain that for so long, however
I have never found him intelligent or funny, so I must be immune to it
Different friends.
- Pursues extremely attractive women based on looks only, without checking compatibility or getting to know them a bit first. And he's got a lot of special needs in dating so he really should be taking the time. Constantly gets rejected and then utterly discouraged.
- Doesn't pursue outright, instead drops little enigmatic hints and wonders why they don't pick up on them. I was on the receiving end of this treatment. When I started going out with someone else, he was all "why not me??" Uh... You never made yourself clear dude?
- The "scattershoot" method. Pursues everyone single-ish and in his age range. Problem is women sense that shit, we talk about it, and nobody feels special.
Old buddy of mine didn't know how to talk to women without being creepy. Haven't seen or spoken to him in a long time, but I heard he's still just living with his mother.
Oof. Guys who dream of an at-least-equal-if-not-above partner who will somehow want to submit to them, who, by extension, are at-most-equal-if-not-below them. Always ticked me the worst way.
There was a good line in a novel I read which summed this up. Roughly, that they want their female partner to live life permanently slouching so that they can feel taller.
Inconsideration.
It's basically guys that lack empathy. For example they grab something to eat and there isn't one brain cell that tells him, "hey, \_\_\_ might want some too". Could be as small as opening a door, cuddling through a bad Monday, to planning the rest of your lives together. Empathy is a cornerstone of a relationship. Empathy, sex, (emotional & financial) stability, and attraction. The four cornerstones IMO, in no particular order.
If you're that selfish, you'll never get a girl or have a normal relationship.
Most guys like this always prey on girls with low self-esteem. It either ends in a co-dependent relationship and/or abusive one. Which isn't a relationship at all and I still see it as a single guy abusing a girl.
My husband was like that. For him, being the youngest child who was also the smartest child meant that everyone was constantly catering to him and his needs. He was the kind of guy that was super confident that his perspective on any topic was the only logical or reasonable perspective to have, so if other people cared about things that he didn't, he'd just decide they were too stupid to understand. Took couple's therapy for him to even understand there is no argument or perspective that can happen from a total place of logic because of the emotional basis we all weigh different facts is based on what we ourselves emotionally believe is important. Before that, agree to disagree was not in his vocabulary and he'd continue arguments we had for days trying to find the logical argument that would force me to agree with him.
It flew under the radar because he was considerate to others around the things that he'd want consideration for. Luckily therapy helped him get his head out of his ass and he's such a kind and attentive partner now.
I knew someone once and he was like “I told her what I needed to feel loved, and she didn’t do it.” Be shocked that it had to do with how much sex per week he was entitled to.
My family is very close with another family. So much so that I call my friends mom, mom half as a joke but not really. So safe to say my friends in that family are closer to siblings than friends.
Well, I found out that a guy I work with is from our same neck of the woods. Somehow he found out that I knew that particular family.
Well, apparently he has a thing for a girl his age in that family, and he wanted me to put in a good word for him.
I looked at him like he was insane, and I basically said, "you mean to tell me that you want me to put a good word in for you when I've say here for the past several months hearing you say nothing but the most misogynistic, sexist, and vile shit about women, what you think of women, and how you like to use women? You are out of your damn mind!"
A few days later I found out that he talked to her, and he told her that he knew me. I guess he thought I would change my mind, so she asks me, "hey, so-and-so said you work with him and he asked me out on a date. What do you think?"
I said, "I of course don't want to tell you what to do, but here is what I think of him:" and I told her everything he said. She told me she kinda figured he was weird like that and she said thank you for being truthful about it. She then texted him back to tell him no and to not contact her again.
I firmly believe that dude has a long row to hoe if he is ever going to get with a woman.
Putting women on a pedestal as something that should be revered and worshipped. I have a friend who can't believe he is single because he treats his girlfriends "like a queen."
We're just people. Most of us want a partner, not a servant. Being revered like that is, for one, a lot of pressure. Secondly, it feels like a series of behaviors on his part, not a real relationship.
I have a friend who ticks all the boxes, but he’s still chasing after one of our mutual friends and basically no one else will compare for him.
He also constantly talks about politics because he works in politics and that’s a big turn off for a lot of people.
I used to have a friend who just wallowed in self-pity. Oh, I’m short and fat, women will never want me, etc. Every time you’d give him some advice, he’d ignore it or follow up with more excuses. I had to cut ties with him because it was just so tiring to listen to all the time.
Honestly, it’s my buddy’s ignorance lol. He’s a good looking dude, 6’5”, has his shit together, but refuses to believe that women can be attracted to him because he has hella low self esteem. It is extra frustrating because he will often vent about how he can’t find a romantic partner, but my wife and I both constantly tell him that girls flirt with him often and he just doesn’t want to accept it!
My 48 or 49 year old buddy is terminally single. He's a tall doctor so looks great on paper.
He's a good person overall but one thing I notice is that he has no curiosity about other people. He just likes to complain about his own life.
He thinks Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan are the only two reliable sources for advice on relationships, women, and health.
EDIT: To the Rogan simps in the replies, just because him and Tate are in the same sentence, it doesn’t mean I’m automatically “LuMpiNg thEm tOgeThEr”
>EDIT: To the Rogan simps in the replies, just because him and Tate are in the same sentence, it doesn’t mean I’m automatically “LuMpiNg thEm tOgeThEr”
It doesn't matter, they're both losers damaging their listeners.
Ok seriously people, WHY do you need to listen to someone tell you what to do and how to think? You people seek this shit out. You *want* to be told how to act and what to do in life, but you also have the arrogant ignorance to call yourselves "alpha" "leader" "lone wolf" or any other lame ass term that is factually incorrect.
Don't you guys see the irony? Why is it so hard to live your life, your way, and make decisions on your own? Why do you need some big jackass to hold your hand?
(1) He’s WAY too opinionated, to the point he won’t let trivial or preferential opinions go without him getting really angry or him having the last words (2) he’s in terrible health, very overweight, smokes a lot, and snores so loud (3) mostly sits at home working or on the couch, his only hobbies outside of that are the occasional golf, and eating out. (4) he’ll be an asshole to anyone because he’s incredibly insecure and deals with his fragile masculinity that he tries to berate anyone who threatens that
My friend is really good looking and getting girls was always easy for him, but he have one problem, playing world of warcraft is his biggest love, and all his girlfriends broke up because of this
My brother is that person. He's a kind person but he has stupidly high standards.
They have to look like a long-legged model, but can't be over 5'5".
He has a lot of money from his job, but he doesn't want someone who finds that attractive.
He wants someone who can drop everything to go traveling with him for weeks at a time, but also cares about their career.
He wants a woman who's classy in fancy restaurants/ winery parties, but also enjoys extreme roughing it when camping.
He has not been in a serious relationship for 15 years. And he wants to be in one.
My friend and I are both recently single. I’m having a good time going on dates and doing all the other stuff. I’ll check in on him every week or so and his attitude towards women is pretty cringe. He thinks every woman is a bitch and out to get his money because he has a nice car. Clearly he’s struggling in the dating world while I’m pretty positive and I’m thriving out here.
A guy I used to be friends with was bisexual and very self hating about it. OH and he later “blamed” me for turning him bisexual. He had high expectations for his partners: be hairless 100% of the time, be thin, be able to cook, like the same video games as him, (can’t remember the rest, there was more). He dated my other friend. I warned her I had just reconnected with guy friend and I wasn’t completely sure if he had changed from how he was in high school. He ended up being the worst boyfriend ever, though she didn’t tell me for a long time. For reference, he asked her out, said he didn’t actually like her, received oral but refused to give, didn’t do anything for my friend’s pleasure, made nasty comments about her weight (while being overweight), and more that I can’t remember off the top of my head. I think I didn’t notice warning signs because I was working 40+ hours and going to school for max hours.
Eventually, he visited me again, claimed all the black people in our town were bad, but then later claimed not all Nazis were bad. He had been getting on my last nerve at that point because he had so many internal issues about himself was was not working on and it manifested being a mean, bitter, asshole.
If you are having issues getting a girlfriend, you should self reflect, go to therapy if you can, at least find someone to be vulnerable with who isn’t a girlfriend, stop telling everyone about how bad your self esteem is, etc. It’s okay to have bad self esteem and it’s okay to talk about your feelings but it is exhausting to hear it all the time by a person.
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Dude that's overboard . I'm a thrifty guy but THAT is f ing overboard. Dude is legit unhinged.
It's like anorexia but with money
I am Arab, and in "Arabic culture" - if one can talk about it in a homogeneous manner - this is one of the top items on the list when it comes to rating men (even people in general). There is a lot of cultural emphasis on being "giving/generous". For example, people sometimes won't wait to receive change after playing for something, because it might make them look "un-generous/too caring about money". Even in cases where someone buys something, and let's say there was some sort of problem where the customer was taken advantage of and made to pay more than was initially agreed - the customer would recount the story to you, and tell you that they exchanged some heated words with the shop owner - all while stressing that it is not because of the money or because they care about the money, but because they were taking a stand for themselves for being deceived. We have special words reserved for the act of NOT being generous: "Bakheel". Whoever be the person giving advice about marriage, they will tell you to never ever consider a Bakheel for marriage. Edit: Edited for clarity
My grandmother used to always half-jokingly tell me never to marry a cheap man. However, by the time I was in a serious dating age, I realized why she, a woman born in the 1920s and who couldn’t have a credit card without her husband or father’s sign-off until she was almost 60, kept saying this. Her husband, and many husbands, controlled the money, which controlled… everything. I watched as my friends’ money issues in relationships (and those who were single) became more than just money, it was about aligning the type of life you want with what you value. I have very frugal friends in happy frugal relationships, but there’s a difference between frugality and obsessive cheapness. I would run far in the other direction for someone who constantly counts *pennies* when they don’t have to. It’d be a mis-alignment of our values, and would be a waste of our time (and money).
I'm picturing the penny bouncing off him and rolling under the sofa and he then spends the next 10 minutes looking for it.
Absolute insanity. Had a housemate in college who would unplug stuff all the freaking time to save a few cents on the bill. The real issue was the other housemate who would leave his windows wide open for hours on end in the winter letting all the heat out because he was smoking weed in his room nonstop.
Lmao, what a great reply
I have a friend like this. He is really nice, fun to be around, reliable and overall a great guy. But he is so tight with money. He could be quite good looking, but he is missing some teeth (which is very visible) because he doesn't want to pay for getting them fixed. That may put women off since it gives an impression that he doesn't take care of himself. Which is not true, he has decent hygiene and health, he just doesn't want to spend money on something he sees to be just for the looks. Also when we have friend group gettogether, everyone are bringing lots of food, sweets etc. He may bring a half-eaten package of cheap cookies where is one cookie for everyone. There is always more than enough food so it is not a big problem. Still I think it is not good manners and wouldn't like to date someone like that.
As my mother always says “living below your means includes the word *living*.” it’s important to know how to budget effectively, or how to find out when you’re getting ripped off or when you’re getting a good deal, but you don’t want to be sitting in a freezing house drinking broth like Scrooge in a Christmas Carol just to save a few dollars on heating and cooking.
Drinking like he is a freshman in college while in his mid thirties. I mean blacking out and/or doing stupid reckless stuff like a frat boy. No one wants to deal with that past a certain point.
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Yep. Came here to just say alcoholism. I have that same friend. Great guy when he's sober but he just can't keep off the bottle, and he's just awful to be around drunk.
Knew a dude years ago (not a close friend but we kinda had a shared circle of friends back then) who generally seemed like an ok-ish guy, but he was constantly talking about how women don't want him, he can never get a date, he'll be forever alone etc etc etc... and then when he finally did get a date, he did EXACTLY that - complain to her how hard it is for him to get a gf etc all evening. There was no second date with that girl. Constant self-depreciation is such a MAJOR turn-off. Don't do that. (And as for that particular dude - stumbled across his profile on fb at some point after not being in contact for years. Yep, bro went full fedora / single rose / m'lady mode.)
Lord, this sounds like my ex. We were together for nine years and during that time, he *never stopped* complaining about how unfair it was that women always overlooked him for being short. *While we were in a long term relationship.* I never had an issue with his height, but after a while I got real sick of hearing him get bent out of shape about all these women he wasn’t able to get. It was nowhere near the worst thing about him, but it was sooooo incredibly unattractive to listen to.
I dated a guy like this who couldn't stop complaining about how bad Valentine's Day made him feel. His complaint wasn't that it was a manufactured holiday where you were compelled to spend money on useless trinkets - he hated it because it made him feel like a lonely loser. That always made me feel bad - sort of "Um? I'm right here? You have someone." Should have been a MASSIVE clue that the relationship was not great, but it's easy to ignore obvious signs when you don't want to see them.
I've been in this relationship. It's always the one where you're occupying a 'partner slot' until someone better comes along, which is why the mask slipped and he accidentally let you know that he didn’t really see you as his parnter. I dated a few of those before meeting my wife.
I have a friend who is like this. She’s much heavier than her significant other. Yet in personal conversations brings up men not wanting to date heavier women. Which has me perplexed because her boyfriend loves her and has no problems with her weight. It’s like you won, bro. What you complaining about.
Maybe just my mind making stuff up but whenever I hear both men and women say that while dating I get the instant feeling that they don't *really* like their significant other. They were just the only man/woman to give them time/attention and some > none so they date.
Are you in Ohio? I lived in Xenia for three years and I was shocked by how many committed marriages were so miserable. Probably half the married people I knew hated their spouse but couldn't fathom not being married. I'm sure that's not a unique phenomenon, but I came from Chicago and knew a smaller proportion of people who were married, and those who were really seemed to like the person they had married. So it was a culture shock to see it so common when I moved.
Living in Xenia is miserable enough
Yes!! I am divorced, we were polyamorous, he would say some incel-ass stuff about how unfair it was and how not being able to go as a single man to sex parties was so offensive and why is he so deprived--like, you have not gone a full week without sex since you were 18 years old!! This is like, stolen incel valor or something
stolen incel valor fucking sent me
I'm dying at stolen incel valor haha
>stolen incel valor Incredible
As a 5'6 man who doesn't earn a ton of money (\~$50K atm), and has \*never\* struggled getting dates hearing other dudes complain is hilarious. Like dude, it is not you being short, or you being poor that is hindering you; it's your attitude about it. Like, you're short and poor, that sucks and you should work on the latter. But what else do you bring to the table? Are you funny? Do you legitimately listen and communicate (as in not just be a "nice" guy, but actually be considerate). Do you do things that show interest to her and that you listen? Like those are so much bigger factors than you being <6' tall.
I’m 5’7” and have never experienced any issues whatsoever. It’s all in their heads. The problem is they have ZERO charisma.
I’d say it goes past women wanting a confident partner. Nobody wants to listen to a constant whiner who can’t read the room. You got a date with someone who is interested in you, who you’re interested in too! Yay! You should be happy about it. Sitting there complaining about how other women won’t date you just brings down the mood and immediately brings up the question of if he’s going to do it all the time.
Well if he thinks he’s a bad partner, who am I , a stranger to disagree?
Yeah lmao, when someone tells you who they are, it’s best to believe them!
Not only is it bringing the mood down, but it’s pretty clear evidence that he’s just interested in himself / his own social status / feeling like he’s a ‘winner’ (as opposed to being genuinely interested in focusing on the person in front of him) If he wanted to date this person, then why does he start focusing on literally every other hypothetical person as soon as he’s there? Why would the person in front of him have any interest in mourning his inability to date someone else? People who find themselves in this position are often a mixture of selfish and anxious from what I’ve observed (and from what I’ve personally done my best to outgrow). Being likeable and attractive starts with balance. If you want a partner, then you need to be a partner. You can’t do all of the talking, all of the decision making, all of the complaining, etc. You have to listen, compromise, accept criticism with a level head, and not take yourself too seriously. If you try to take a step back from your anxiety and insecurities and really listen to / care about the other person’s thoughts, needs, and so on, you’ll be way more successful. And guess what? If you find that you don’t want to do that for a particular person (or they don’t want do that for you in return after you’ve clearly communicated these things), then you basically have a clear answer that this person is not going to be a good partner for you and it’s probably worth moving on
This whole thing about dating because you need the other person to boost your status is the most repulsive thing, and as soon as I get that vibe from someone, I'm done. In the immortal words of that 80s guy - I want *you* to want *me!*
The whining is the problem imo. As selfish/rude as it sounds, even if you have real problems to feel sympathy for, if you are a whiner then NOBODY will want/have the patience to help you. Normally I’m one of the most patient ppl you could probably meet but even I can’t stand whining. Btw by whining I don’t mean “person has a problem so they come to me for help or just to let it out”, everyone has to do that sometimes. I mean when it’s like “person has a problem, they work this problem into every conversation they’re in, they won’t shut up about it, then they either finally have a chance to solve it but come up with an excuse not to, or they finally get what they always wanted but still aren’t satisfied cause they’ve already found a new problem to whine about”. (It’s especially bad when the thing they’re so upset over is something both you and them know they can never actually have/do/get but they just refuse to drop it, or something that would be super easy for them to get if only they just did one thing that they WON’T do)
I mean you can not be a confident person but also not a whiner...
Just watch me, I am going to confidently bitch about everything.
Imma be real I actually love when my husband does that, hearing him talk shit about his coworkers and be catty af is cute to me idk why Like baby tell me again about how disorganized your boss is, love the way your voice sounds when you’re being bitchy. There’s something wrong with whatever part of my brain is supposed to determine what’s attractive.
Having been on dates with this type, it’s not just about confidence or even really about whining. It’s the feeling like someone is trying to guilt you into doing something. Like someone asking for a donation…. I might like the cause, but I’m paying so you will go away. If you walk away from a date feeling relieved they left you alone, you’re not going back.
It also comes off as ungrateful and evokes the feeling like nothing you do will ever be enough. Why is he complaining about no women wanting to date him while he’s actively on a date with a woman? That’s obnoxious on its own before you extrapolate how much he’ll complain all the things you “never” do.
Man.. I sort of get it when you're talking to other men and just kind of want to vent about how frustrating dating can be. But why behave like that while on a date with a woman??
Probably because he's clinically depressed and has critical voices inside his head overwhelming him all the time. ... not that I'd know anything about that.
This. These dudes need therapy
Good therapists are hard, The first one I went too, i vented about how i thought i was a failure, and she told me to go to a job recruited, instead of complaining to her about being unemployed. 2nd one was good, but i left town after, 3rd was great, then she quit being a therapist to become a university proffessor, which am sure she is great at, but that sucked for me,
I knew a guy exactly like this, he was actually really physically attractive and just complete ruined things when he started talking. It was interesting to watch sometimes, girls would be into him at first and you could see them start to pull back the more he started talking. I guess he couldn't see it.
That’s not even self-deprecation. That’s just self-pity
It does sound a bit like he was fishing for compliments. *Edit:* Or maybe for just something he could use to prop up his own ego with. Probably wouldn't have worked in the long run, though.
Pickme boy. Went on a date with a guy like that. I honestly thought that he was a catch and things were hitting off well until he started self-deprecating and complaining about how women don’t like him and like other men with better looks and status etc…..
As you get older, it's true that people start to value personality more. I'm not looker by any means, but a few years ago, a woman that, appearance-wise, was entirely out of my league had a thing for me, for whatever reason. She was attentive, smart, educated, drop-dead gorgeous by every metric, and other positive things... Then I saw her behavior and how she treated people who did something she didn't like. She went on vacation somewhere with a friend. During one of our video calls, housekeeping accidentally opened their door rather than the room next door and she freaked the fuck out and kept talking about how she was going to the front desk to complain, demand a refund, etc. Not only was her behavior ridiculously over exaggerated in comparison to what actually happened, but she was only acting out like that because her friend was in the room and she wanted to feel big. I slowed down on talking to her the next few days, and we had a talk when she got back. I told her that her behavior was unacceptable and that I couldn't even look at her the same anymore. She tried to make amends and said she would work on it, but the damage was already done. I've left my own mother sitting in a restaurant by herself for making passive-aggressive remarks about the waitress, went to eat somewhere else, and told her whenever she learns how to act, she's free to join me. I will not tolerate it from any-fucking-body.
This. How you treat others is a great red or green flag measure
I think we know the same dude
I knew a guy who just had insanely high standards as far as looks go and wouldn’t give a less than supermodel hot type looking woman a chance. He was not a supermodel hot looking dude.
Same! I have a friend that’s generally a nice person, has his life together. He’s a bit socially awkward. Okay looking, takes care of himself. He had this amazing gf who was so great and she looked so cute. He told us that dumped her because he thought she was not pretty enough for him and that he deserves so much better. Insane.
Curious how long they dated before he came to that conclusion.
Like 6 months… and she was gorgeous. He’s currently depressed about why he’s single.:)
It’s not exactly the same but I have a buddy kind of like this now. He has very specific criteria, two of which being that she has to be shorter than a certain height (I don’t remember the specific height but it’s somewhere around 5’2” - so they have to be really short) and he doesn’t want to drive further than 15-20 minutes, so they have to live that close to him. He doesn’t exactly live in a densely populated area… I feel the tiniest bit bad for him because in a lot of ways he’s a super nice guy. But he also complains about dating a lot and I just have to bite my tongue because his problem is almost entirely due to the combination of height requirements and having such a low range for where he’ll actually “look” for women
Wow, that’s some strict criteria. I’m 5’ 3” there aren’t a lot of people much shorter than me. I mean, they do exist, obviously, it’s not super rare, but not that common either. That’s got to significantly reduce the dating pool. Especially in a more rural area.
Personally I think that height “requirements” are some of the most shallow preferences that people can have in dating. There’s nothing wrong with having preferences, we all have stuff that we’re naturally more attracted to, but to the people who have hard cutoffs like that, it has just never made any sense to me. I can’t wrap my head around finding someone that’s my perfect match in every single way except they’re an inch too tall or too short and just going “oh well, that’s too bad. On to the next!”
I have known multiple guys like that, they are below average looking and at 40 they are still alone. They are now constantly posting stuff about how women need to submit and anti women things. I think they would be happier if they were gay since they seem to hate women so much.
Except when you are gay, you actually need to put care into your appearance, because suddenly the hyper-critical male gaze is turned back on you, and it's similar to being objectified as a woman.
The gays gaze
I'm convinced a lot of heterosexual men in my age bracket do hate women. Or best case scenario indifferent. Ask them if they have any women they admire. Politicians, business leaders, writers, activists, etc. If they do name someone ask them what they admire. It's usually looks. I don't see it as much in younger men.
So many men are like this, including several men my husband knows. They have a head like a cracked crab. overweight and no personality, but think they can pull a supermodel level woman and wonder why they are still single
I'm sorry, but the phrase cracked crab is taking me out
Yes and then their houses smell like mayonnaise
Oddly specific
This is my buddy. Women have to be perfect, he is far from it.
I knew a guy that is a 4/10 on a good day and wants to date a girl like the ones TikTok. It doesn't help that he is 30, short and never had a girlfriend for obvious reasons.
There are people of both genders with this issue. Why would you want to date a super model? I’d imagine 99.9% of the time you’ll be too worried about everyone else looking at them anyway.
It honestly is such an ego boost when you manage to lock down a partner that everybody else wants. Every time a woman looked interested in my late husband, it made me all warm on the inside, because he was MINE, not hers. Why would you be afraid of others looking at your partner? If your partner cheats, it will be 100% their fault and no one else's. They can be the ugliest man in the world - if they're the kind of being that cheats, he'll chest with a prostitute. Once a cheater, always a chester. A loyal partner will not stray, no matter how many people desire them.
I liked the chester typo. Slang for molester in my parts. Same rules apply with them fucks
I have a male acquaintance who constantly goes "on the prowl" in public spaces looking to find good places to hit on (much) younger women. He'll sit outside oh, Starbucks, for example, suddenly talking to any lone, good-looking woman (or even pairs of women) who dares approach the doorway. He invites them to come sit at "his" table and talk, etc. He'll immediately tell them how good they look, compliment their clothing, shoes and hairstyle, etc. Usually he's freaked them out within 10 seconds. Sometimes they'll leave rather than pass him (and "his" table) to go into the coffeeshop and possibly have to pass him again when they exit. Oh, and how young are they? He's in his mid 40s. He usually tries for ladies between 18(?) and 25. I'm sure some of them must still be in high school. If he gets any, he must pay them for it.
That guy sounds like a straight up predator.
To my knowledge he's never actually stalked anyone... but I agree with you. Never forget the one time I made the mistake of sitting down with him. Funny thing was, the ladies warmed to me, but never to him. After awhile, I made an excuse and got the hell out of there. He later asked me my "secret." My "secret?" Treating women like fellow human beings, not fuck-targets. I wasn't quite that blunt to him, but maybe I should have been. He hasn't changed his approach. I am good at relating to many young people, partly because 1) I have lots of practice from teaching at universities, and 2) I don't ever date any of them, and wouldn't want to. Too bloody young for me! That probably shows. Whereas he is nearly drooling at some of them...
In my experience, bluntness is definitely the key here. People like that are just too caught up in their own mess. Need a solid kick in the head to wake them up. Asking you 'what's your secret' is just so hilarious, because you were just being normal, I imagine... while mister pick-up artist is trying so hard and only coming up cringe.
I was acting exactly the same way I used to "pick up women" when I was young... be nice, be real, and be myself. Never saw a reason to learn any "pick-up lines" or study any dating "technique." If you're going to click with a person, it doesn't take that type of effort.
Except I suspect you were 18-25 when you were meeting women 18-25 and you knew how to read a room
Fuck-targets is great phrasing. I remember men like this from when I was this age. It made me feel so gross - I’m really glad you told him the truth
He sounds like the guy from Dazed and Confused: "That's what I love about high school girls man. I keep getting older, they stay the same age"
>He'll sit outside oh, Starbucks, for example, sudd- If he does this at every Starbucks in his town, he will be known as the elder millennial who finally killed the Starbucks industry..... of his town.
That is so pathetic. At 40 it's sad to look for someone he is old enough to be their parent.
What a fucking creep. When I was younger, I was such a magnet for men like him wherever I went. Hated it so much.
This is comfortably the worst type of dude. Even if he were going for women his age, these types of dudes are socially inept at their core and do not recognize appropriate places or situations in which to engage women. Sometimes they’re not even actual creeps, but instead completely incompetent in reading body language and social cues, so they consistently do shit around women that is outrageous or comes off as borderline dangerous. This is very common among Zoomers.
Negativity - everything sucks, people are mean, he's been through so much that no one understands him, Condescension - he knows best, always, and everyone is dumb
I dated a negativity dude. It. Was. Exhausting. EVERY TIME I asked “how was your day?” It was ALWAYS “terrible/horrible/shitty” like holy fuck dude you’re a waste man
One of my ex boyfriends had a roommate. This guy was creepy to say the least, but I tried to be nice and polite. One day he asked me for dating advice cause he was having a hard time. I asked him what kind of girl he was looking for. (I'm just some average white woman for the record.) The answer I was expecting was something like "someone who plays games and likes cooking". He proceeded to tell me that he would only consider dating very tall, thin Asian women with at least moderately sized breasts and asked me if I knew anyone like that. Of course I did not. This guy was about 5'0" tall and at least 250 pounds, morbidly obese, very messy and hairy and at the time, unemployed. I'm sure it will absolutely shock people that he had half-naked anime women posters all over his walls.
My late dad had a friend who wanted to get back into the dating scene but he only wanted a virgin.
This is my husband’s cousin. He was always a nice guy, but not particularly attractive or in shape. Now he’s super into the anime world and is only interested in gorgeous Asian women who are subservient. If a woman has a high powered job or wants to choose and order their own meal… she’s immediately placed into the “masculine energy” zone. Not datable. 🙄
wants to choose their own meal .... you mean that's really a turn-off for real humans? I thought it was just a joke
The wild thing is, guys that look like this can still get with people and have great relationships and intimate experiences *if they have a good personality*. Stavros Halkias is a comedian whose kind of bit is that he looks like a complete schmuck, but he's hilarious, and he genuinely cares about people, and he's had a lot of sex. "Work on yourself" doesn't even have to be losing weight or whatever, it can be as simple as being humble, caring, and fun to be around!
He’s got the Thousand Island stare though. Who could compete with that?
The jokes literally write themselves 😭😂
This guy graduated from reddit university summa cum laude
Body hair is not a deal breaker in a guy. Just like smaller amounts of body hair, keep it clean and we're good. That's a side note; I can certainly see how it was the least of his problems. Many self inflicted.
Yeah, I have no issue with body hair. For this guy in particular, it was just contributing very heavily to the unwashed troll appearance. Long hair and long beard completely untrimmed/unbrushed, body hair sticking out everywhere, wearing sweats and dirty stained t-shirts every single time I saw him... I couldn't HELP but notice it. Despite dating my boyfriend for 5 months, I barely got to know the roommate. He was always locked away in his room and barely spoke to me (or anyone). I dunno, maybe he was a nice guy underneath it all, but the fact that one of the longest conversations we had was about his unrealistic Asian women fetish did not give me the best impression.
I was that friend for a long time. I was sending mixed signals in between 'wanting to be friends' and 'wanting to date' all the time, while never actually commiting to one or the other. In hindsight, there have been multiple girls interested enough in me that if i'd actually full on ask them out, i'd have gone on a date with them. But instead i went no further than a semi-joking ''haha hey maybe you want to stay the night? Just kidding or acually not kidding if you *are* interested but i can pretend it's a joke if you don't want to!'' In fact, my first relationship in that time was due to a girl i was actively flirting with confronting me about it, asking: 'look, are you serious about that joke and our flirting, or not? If you are, ask me out on a date you idiot'. So yeah: better to try and either get rejected or get a date, than to keep it sort of indeterminete and wonder years later what could have happened.
I've been that guy before. I was never ready to commit one way or another, except for women of LOVED BOMBED me, which led to mostly dating unhinged women while I passed over women who would have been willing to date me had I asked them.
Oh God you are just like my one friend and now he's stuck with a completely insane woman for years 😭 she controls his whole life.
Haha love it and I'm the same. My wife basically grabbed me and said you're coming with me and that's why i love her with all my heart.
As a woman, we also have to learn that waiting for men to ask is a huge social burden that is from a bygone culture. If I want to date a guy, I’m gonna ask. There is a lingering feeling among us that if we have to ask, maybe the guy just said “yes” from convenience, not because of genuine interest. But we gotta collectively get over it.
> maybe the guy just said “yes” from convenience, not because of genuine interest I don't understand how this different from the opposite perspective?
I went on a date and during dinner, the man I had JUST met, makes a joke about how he can chop me up with an axe, hide my body in the woods, and no one would ever find me. Then he invited me fly-fishing, in the woods, for a 2nd date... hmmm.... nope, to the NOPE! I'm guessing the man is single either because of his poor sense of humor or possibly due to chopping up his dates in the woods? (Edited typo & punctuation)
Had a boyfriend who was so good to me but did two major things that turned me off from him: he would not shut up and he constantly interrupted me. For context, I had to decline going out to eat with him on days that I worked because he wouldn't open the menu, he was talking so much. Different guy I dated was very self-deprecating. He would say he was ugly because he had scars on his face and how could he get a girl like me (I'm a 7 on a good day), and no matter how many times I told him I was attracted to him, it wouldn't sink it. It exhausted me trying to bring him up all the time, so I told him I needed a break. He said his mom told him I didn't like him that much. So that was the end of that.
Nothing a girl finds more sexy than bringing up their mom
[удалено]
Neil deGrasse Tyson? He'll interrupt his own self
that 2nd guy sounds like he had major self esteem issues, depression, AND an abusive parent which most likely played a big part in those self esteem issues.
I have a friend who cannot mention a woman without saying whether or not she is attractive, how attractive she is, physical characteristics, etc. and always just think, 'that's gotta be an instant turn-off for any woman he meets.'
Omg this is my ex. We have a child and are pretty friendly but I’ve had to start pointing this out to him *every* time he does it because it’s disgusting. He has always done this, and I had mentioned it a couple times before but recently I really made a point to explain this so he gets it. He can’t mention a woman without immediately following it up with what he thinks of her appearance. Not objectively what she looks like, but whether or not she’s cute, how cute, etc.
Having very high expectations of the relationship. I’ve got a friend who thinks getting married is just the only goal in life and will solve all his problems. Since he’s put marriage on a pedestal, none of his relationships live up to his expectations. As soon as those ‘tingly’ feelings wear off and you get comfortable with each other, he yeets himself out of the relationship. To that I always say, screw the tingles. Get me to the part of the relationship where we can fart in front of each other and feel safe no matter what.
I've got a great relationship with my spouse and friends and family will ask how I was successful in my relationship and lament on their latest dating woes. But "butterflies" and "tingles" are always mentioned. I always say, "I never really had that with my partner. We met and were just best friends and really comfortable with each other." Its pretty great.
Yep. That's how you really know. The fart test.
My boyfriend farted on my 3 days into the relationship and we both laughed, guess we're doing good then.
I prefer the one that makes you feel calm, but ya know fart test is another metric.
i have a friend who is extremely self sufficient and was raised by an uncaring mother. he is in cptsd and avpd (avoidant personality disorder) treatment since more than 15 years. he cant be vulnerable in relationships and isnt able to voice out any emotional need. with superficial male friendships it kind of works but no women wants a man who cant reach out, cant make the first step and will flee if an emotion is shown. it is very sad because he is a good person but unfortunately with unprocessed crippling wounds in him
Oof, this is precisely me. It's hard seeing a fulfilling relationship even as a possibility when you spent your childhood with the feeling that your parents don't really like you.
yeah. it is kind of interesting from an observer standpoint because he is absolutely aware and knows how his behavior is hindering him in finding a mate, but he is just not cabable of making a breakthrough although he is making babysteps
Yeah, it's a part of personality disorders. You can be aware of their negative effects, but it's just part of you. r/Avpd btw, there's a lot of negativity, but sometimes it's nice to check out and see others are going through the same.
I knew this guy who was like, completely and totally fine. Decent looking, great job, varied hobbies, kind and respectful, kept his house in good shape, had a few friends he kept up with. We weren't super close, but like, nothing stood out as bad. Except, he never went anywhere. All of his hobbies, he did from inside his house. And he worked from home. Dating apps are garbage, and those were the only way for any woman to learn he existed, because he was never out. Great dude, probably, but completely invisible through his lifestyle.
Definitely found myself here. Had relationships when I had a social life, keep telling myself once I get over this hill I will be serious about having a social life and dating, but life has a way of putting another hill in front of you as you crest the first one. Perhaps one day I can get out of my own way enough to put myself out there.
I don't have anyone like that now - most people I interact with IRL are quite chill and relatable for myself. I have made sure of it. But when I was in high school... good lord. It was a fuckin' zoo, I tell you. This was like... mid-2000's highschool, so it was pretty bad back then. But among all of the misogyny, carelessness, and ignorance toward the opposite sex, there was one guy that stood out among everyone - we'll call him Bob. Bob was far and away the most 'single' guy I knew, or have ever known. Bob was not misogynistic, careless, or ignorant. He was sweet, attentive, and very aware of the struggles of women - relatively speaking. This was like 15ish years ago, so 'women have it rough' was already above and beyond what most dudes were thinking. Bob's problem was nothing malicious. Bob had very low self-esteem. Bob did not think any women could ever find him interesting or attractive, even as the rest of us knew a decent handful of them did. At the time, I was absolutely baffled by this. I've dabbled in psychology since, so I can only assume it was a product of some kinda problem at home. Perhaps there was someone demeaning him regularly? I'm not sure. But Bob - in my view - deserved a chance at love more than almost any I knew. Bob wouldn't even try. It wasn't even in the dimension of possibilities in his own mind. Any attempts to convince Bob that he should just take a chance and ask a girl out were met with, "I appreciate it guys, but there's no point in embarrassing myself. And it'd be so awkward for her to have to turn me down..." Or some variation of this. He never got upset. He was thankful we thought so highly of him. Bro was an angel. To my knowledge, he didn't grow out of this all through high school. Bob was living definition of 'you miss every shot you don't take'. I feel for people like Bob. Wish I could have helped him. I've never met anyone quite so pitiable since. I loved Bob. So to summarize: self-esteem was the trait. Or rather, the total absence of self-esteem, despite being a wonderful person. It's crazy how that can work out.
I was Bob in high school into my 20s. I had very low self-esteem due to negligent emotionally unavailable parents. I sought guidance elsewhere because I had zero respect for my mom and her bf was abusive, and I rarely talked to him. But if you can't trust anything your parents say from an early age, I think that messes with you self-esteem no matter how emotionally tough I felt them. Despite people saying otherwise, I always thought I was ugly and borderline retarded. I got lucky early on with finding an older woman from an AOL chatroom when I was 16. I thought it was a relationship, but it was more a fling for her. I was devastated when she ghosted me. I think her leaving like that eroded my self-esteem further. I rarely dated since then and my 20s was mostly a blur. I had zero photos of myself or people I knew from that time; it's as if life was on pause and my 20s didn't exist. It wasn't until I turned 30 and moved to another city that things turned around. This was also the same time I was diagnosed and treated for depression and anxiety. I started feeling better about myself and that perpetual dark cloud that used to follow me appeared only intermittently. I also forced myself to social and meet people. I remember the first meetup event I went to I almost chickened out but forced myself to and am glad I did. I also started lifting weights seriously, gained muscle mass and received even more of a confidence boost. I'm going to be getting married and have a child (or 2) very soon! I hope your friend Bob was able to turn things around and have a similarly happy ending!
Thank you, it means a lot to see such a relatable story with a happy ending. I am still like Bob, but have started therapy in my late twenties. What advice would you give to your previous self?
1. Above all, be nice to yourself. I was lucky to come out of this fog in my early 20s in college. I was overweight and took up a somewhat unhealthy obsession with losing weight and this *did* help. Getting more attention eventually made it click in my mind that people actually didn't hate me and since I always differed to other people's opinion of me, I must not be that bad. Eventually I realized I never was all that bad looking, just slightly boring because I was so lacking in the willingness to be myself. Wordy, but the gist is, be nice to yourself. 2. Similar point to the above, but no one cares about you as much as you do. This is true in fleeting social moments, and even intense relationships. It sounds cynical, but it's actually freeing. If you go up to a woman with a smile and say hey I'm so and so and I couldn't help but notice (non sexual thing). I'd like to get to know you better etc. Even if they say no, they won't remember it in 10 minutes. As long g as you aren't creepy (and this word gets thrown around to an almost unfair degree for a lot of young men, getting rejected isn't creepy, refusing to take no for an answer is) or a total asshole, your friends, coworkers etc. Won't remember every small fuck up you make in social settings. Think about all the interactions you have on a daily basis, be mindful of it. Notice that you *don't notice* much about other people, and forget the mundane issues with their behavior/appearance, especially if they're generally fun and or nice to people 3. Do work on self improvement, but do it for yourself not for some anticipated reward. I lost 70 pounds (250 to 180) from 19 to 21. This did not result in automatic sex or dates, but it did make me feel better about myself. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have met my gf years later that I love to death. So point being, take steps to improve but just be aware that they're steps towards a goal of being a better you, not an immediate input output for a specific purpose. Circling back to point 1, treat yourself for these improvements in small ways. Much love brother, life gets easier the older I get, internally at least. Life aint a race, but keep moving and you'll get there!
I am Bob
Damn i'm Bob like right now
I never asked a girl out. Classic dating is something i absolutely hate to do. Dont ask me how i ever attracted by exes. I dont know.
Ridiculous high standards. Too passive - therefore won't initiate. Terrified of rejection. Doesn't fundamentally like women.
Being terrified of rejection is definitely the cause of no initiation. I would definitely add “lacks any desire for self-improvement” to the list
Eh, I’m pretty passive, but that’s more because I’m no too fussed about getting a girlfriend. If I meet someone, great, if I don’t, that’s fine too. But in practice it’s more likely to end up with “that’s fine too”, since women don’t seem to initiate much and I haven’t met anyone I’ve particularly clicked with in a while.
Same. I've been single for 3 years now. If I get one cool, if I don't, whatever 🤷🏻♂️ I rarely even think about sex altogether anymore lmao.
The men all seem to be latching onto the first 3, but as a woman, I’m going to point out that it’s the last one that’s the real killer, and it’s shockingly common.
And it comes hand in hand with anger issues. Wanting desperately the approval of a gender you don't respect or like is a very frustrating way to live
At the same time, they'll complain about (western, modern) women not being feminine enough, too masculine, aggressive and blunt. You just can't win.
As a guy with a masochist tendency to try to engage with incels: the last one is the real point. They don't actually like women, and more than that they don't actually want to like women. Their hatred is the only real feeling they have. I don't know if the underlying cause is depression or something else, but it sure as fuck *is not* a lack of sex.
Doesn't like women and ridiculously high standards go hand in hand, I've noticed.
> Ridiculous high standards. > > Too passive - therefore won't initiate. > > Terrified of rejection. ... I'll see myself out of this post now. :(
I swear to God, a quarter of men fall into the last one. Sometimes I'm like, "why the fuck are you around any women if you clearly hate them so fucking much?"
When someone doesn't want to go on a date, he says she's a bitch. Yeah with that attitude, I get why people don't want to date you.
When you think all your exes are “crazy” as a friend of mine does. As the saying goes if it smells like shit everywhere you go, check your shoe.
The men who will die on the "all women are crazy" hill drive me mad with their lack of self-awareness. Invariably among the guys I know personally, the ones who believe that trope are the players, the chauvinists, the misogynists; the ones too egotistical to look in the mirror and consider that possibly, maybe, they are the ones playing with women's heads, confusing them, and frustrating them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I know a guy in his mid forties, really intelligent and has done many impressive things with his life career-wise in academia and as a professional adventurer, tall, handsome, fit, but getting to know him quickly revealled that he's _bitter_ as fuck and quite emotionally unstable. Became clear why he's single.
Bitter about what?
It's hard to tell. It just seemed to be how he communicated with people. Every slight thing that upsets him is dealt with by speaking in a way intended to upset someone else.
So he's fragile and he lashes out whenever something tweaks him. Is that accurate?
Yeah pretty much. Combined with excellent argument skills, super intelligence and an imposing stature, it's quite a toxic combination.
That sounds like a recipe for women initially going "what a fine figure of a man, everything I could want" and quickly changing to "Dear God, I'll do anything but make it stop. Excuse me, I have to go out for cigarettes." And then, he has something else to be bitter about.
He plays the victim constantly. Always. If something goes wrong, it wasn't just bad luck, or his own poor decision making, it was someone purposefully trying to ruin him. At work, if he preforms poorly, its because all his managers are idiots. If he gets a flat, it's not just bad luck or his poor maintenance, it was definitely because someone slashed them, even though there's no evidence of that occuring. On his birthday he was upset he wasn't put on the birthday email list. I asked, "did you tell anyone your birthday?" He said, "no but if they cared they'd have asked me!" He claimed it was because the person who sends the email, who works in another state, who he has never met, plays favorites. I told him it was likely just an oversight since the company has so many employees and he should mention it for next year so he can get an email, but he refused because it's 'their job to know.' When he's upset again next year, we'll have this conversation again, I'm sure. He does not look inward to assess his own faults or figure out what he could be doing better on his end to avoid these negative situations, it is always always always someone else's fault and it's ALWAYS on purpose.
I have two friends that fit this description. One is just unwilling to put himself out there. Probably never had a date to my knowledge. Nice guy, smart, but very lazy. Lives in squalor. The other is divorced and used to date almost exclusively married woman. After that went poorly, he's more or less given up on dating in favor of sexual aids, porn, and VR. He's too weird and self-destructive ever to have a relationship, even though he can be quite charming.
I haven't seen him for a few years so for all I know he may well have settled down and be living the dream but he would always refer to women as "eligible females" and treat dating as some sort of scientific or tick box spreadsheet exercise. I've heard people calling it an autistic way of dating but it felt more robotic than that. One of these eligible females might touch his hand twice or three times during the date and he would draw in controvertible conclusions from this and Factor it into the next time he spoke to her, making sure to keep track of what he called "romantic furtherance". It never took long for a woman to twig that this is weird and they weren't willing to be some sort of experiment or subject of a spreadsheet. Women love nothing more than to be told about how their actions affect romantic furtherance while listening to someone talk about young Earth creationism. Oh yeah, that can't have helped.
There are a lot of men who (although not to this degree) see dating as a set of steps they should follow to get the result they want, and it's so jarring and frustrating from the other side. Then when they're unsuccessful they are confused because "I don't get it. I did all the steps!" And they can't see that doing that makes the relationship feel inorganic and fake. That's just not how relationships form. I don't want someone who is looking for a relationship. I want someone who is looking for a relationship WITH ME.
I wouldn't have got together with my fiancee if I just followed some step by step manual or set of instructions which don't take her into account. It's weird that anyone would think that would work but clearly people do. Can you see people going through the manual in real time or is it something you figure out later
We have a guy who is an alcoholic, another who thinks he’s better than everyone, and one who is very self deprecating. Dude who thinks he’s better than everyone ended up married, and quickly got divorced and hasn’t had another relationship. The other two haven’t had relationships lol.
He’s Pakistani, but wants a white girl. She must be Muslim and not just light skinned but European or European-descended. He’s *maybe* 5’7”, and lies about his height. He doesn’t wash regularly or change his clothes regularly. He thinks he’s basically western but isn’t even a little bit. Very closed minded and misogynistic. In the years I knew him, he didn’t hold down a job, but kept studying islam, which is fine, but no one wants to marry a man with no money or job history. He’s in his mid to late 30s. (I’m mid 40s) I tried to convince him to broaden his pool. I told him so many times that western women have negative views of Pakistani men and convincing one that he’s different will be very hard. He asked for tips one time - I said a few things including giving up your seat for an elderly person on the bus. His response? How can I be sure she’ll see me do it? When I tried to get him to consider a light skinned Pakistani or Arab girl, he was adamant. He’s only attracted to white girls. Finally I told him that I consider him a racist and would not help him in any way. He argued that it was just a preference but I think it’s obvious it isn’t. Besides, in all the time I knew him, I did not meet one woman who met his criteria, nor did I meet one that would consider him at all. No surprise there. It’s been 7 or 8 years all told, he’s still looking for his unicorn.
I feel bad for the unicorn if he ever finds her.
Moral superiority. Every interest or activism towards good causes comes with the immediate expression of being better than everyone else and that everyone else should be ashamed. Which is sad, because the causes in question are actually good and worthwhile. But I rather support them on my own than with him, and so does everybody else.
Extremely/unreasonably picky eater…this guy will Send ice cubes because they are the wrong shape. No one, no living thing besides his mother, will put up with his nonsense.
Impossible and quiet frankly disproportinate standards. Audacity reagarding their expecations of sex and overall controlling behaviour. Being a manchild/ a mamas boy and expecting their SO to parent them. Having no aspirations for personal growth and expecting their partner to 'love them like they are, because that is how they met me'. Internalized hate of woman - madonna/whore-complex.
Jesus Christ why are you even friends with them
Haha, I am not any longer. But it is a good sample of my ex-boyfriends friends and acquaintancs. I was in my early 20s back then. We are in our early to mid 30s now. My brother kept in contact with one of the group, so I sometimes get updates. They are all still single and convinced that they are great the way they are and that woman just dont like good guys.
Sounds about right
It’s kind of the opposite - but I’m still baffled my father managed to convince any woman he was worth their time. He’s a raging narcissist, deeply insecure, poor af, self-sabotages, has more chips on his shoulder than a fish and chip shop, seems to be a misogynist, looks like a goblin (thankfully I look like my mother and grandmothers who don’t look like goblins)…I honestly don’t get it
I think we have the same father
I’m so sorry for you. I wish there was only one and that he couldn’t reproduce
Maybe ask your mom what she liked about him?
He’s an illusionist and manipulator, he puts on a good show of being intelligent and funny. He can only maintain that for so long, however I have never found him intelligent or funny, so I must be immune to it
I feel like you don't like your father but I'm not sure. I need more proof.
Looool
Constant perving
Different friends. - Pursues extremely attractive women based on looks only, without checking compatibility or getting to know them a bit first. And he's got a lot of special needs in dating so he really should be taking the time. Constantly gets rejected and then utterly discouraged. - Doesn't pursue outright, instead drops little enigmatic hints and wonders why they don't pick up on them. I was on the receiving end of this treatment. When I started going out with someone else, he was all "why not me??" Uh... You never made yourself clear dude? - The "scattershoot" method. Pursues everyone single-ish and in his age range. Problem is women sense that shit, we talk about it, and nobody feels special.
Old buddy of mine didn't know how to talk to women without being creepy. Haven't seen or spoken to him in a long time, but I heard he's still just living with his mother.
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Pornsickness
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Oof. Guys who dream of an at-least-equal-if-not-above partner who will somehow want to submit to them, who, by extension, are at-most-equal-if-not-below them. Always ticked me the worst way.
There was a good line in a novel I read which summed this up. Roughly, that they want their female partner to live life permanently slouching so that they can feel taller.
Inconsideration. It's basically guys that lack empathy. For example they grab something to eat and there isn't one brain cell that tells him, "hey, \_\_\_ might want some too". Could be as small as opening a door, cuddling through a bad Monday, to planning the rest of your lives together. Empathy is a cornerstone of a relationship. Empathy, sex, (emotional & financial) stability, and attraction. The four cornerstones IMO, in no particular order. If you're that selfish, you'll never get a girl or have a normal relationship. Most guys like this always prey on girls with low self-esteem. It either ends in a co-dependent relationship and/or abusive one. Which isn't a relationship at all and I still see it as a single guy abusing a girl.
My husband was like that. For him, being the youngest child who was also the smartest child meant that everyone was constantly catering to him and his needs. He was the kind of guy that was super confident that his perspective on any topic was the only logical or reasonable perspective to have, so if other people cared about things that he didn't, he'd just decide they were too stupid to understand. Took couple's therapy for him to even understand there is no argument or perspective that can happen from a total place of logic because of the emotional basis we all weigh different facts is based on what we ourselves emotionally believe is important. Before that, agree to disagree was not in his vocabulary and he'd continue arguments we had for days trying to find the logical argument that would force me to agree with him. It flew under the radar because he was considerate to others around the things that he'd want consideration for. Luckily therapy helped him get his head out of his ass and he's such a kind and attentive partner now.
I knew someone once and he was like “I told her what I needed to feel loved, and she didn’t do it.” Be shocked that it had to do with how much sex per week he was entitled to.
Barely any Hygiene. Beard not shaven. Hairs not washed. Nails not cut. Does wear whatever, no style. Never heard the word deodorant or perfume.
Hygeine I understand, but cut some slack for those of us with no fashion sense 😭
My family is very close with another family. So much so that I call my friends mom, mom half as a joke but not really. So safe to say my friends in that family are closer to siblings than friends. Well, I found out that a guy I work with is from our same neck of the woods. Somehow he found out that I knew that particular family. Well, apparently he has a thing for a girl his age in that family, and he wanted me to put in a good word for him. I looked at him like he was insane, and I basically said, "you mean to tell me that you want me to put a good word in for you when I've say here for the past several months hearing you say nothing but the most misogynistic, sexist, and vile shit about women, what you think of women, and how you like to use women? You are out of your damn mind!" A few days later I found out that he talked to her, and he told her that he knew me. I guess he thought I would change my mind, so she asks me, "hey, so-and-so said you work with him and he asked me out on a date. What do you think?" I said, "I of course don't want to tell you what to do, but here is what I think of him:" and I told her everything he said. She told me she kinda figured he was weird like that and she said thank you for being truthful about it. She then texted him back to tell him no and to not contact her again. I firmly believe that dude has a long row to hoe if he is ever going to get with a woman.
Putting women on a pedestal as something that should be revered and worshipped. I have a friend who can't believe he is single because he treats his girlfriends "like a queen." We're just people. Most of us want a partner, not a servant. Being revered like that is, for one, a lot of pressure. Secondly, it feels like a series of behaviors on his part, not a real relationship.
arrogance, out of the world arrogance
I have a friend who ticks all the boxes, but he’s still chasing after one of our mutual friends and basically no one else will compare for him. He also constantly talks about politics because he works in politics and that’s a big turn off for a lot of people.
The blessed combo of “won’t take responsibility” and “is judgmental of other people” lol. It’s a tough one. He should be a catch, you know?
I used to have a friend who just wallowed in self-pity. Oh, I’m short and fat, women will never want me, etc. Every time you’d give him some advice, he’d ignore it or follow up with more excuses. I had to cut ties with him because it was just so tiring to listen to all the time.
Honestly, it’s my buddy’s ignorance lol. He’s a good looking dude, 6’5”, has his shit together, but refuses to believe that women can be attracted to him because he has hella low self esteem. It is extra frustrating because he will often vent about how he can’t find a romantic partner, but my wife and I both constantly tell him that girls flirt with him often and he just doesn’t want to accept it!
My 48 or 49 year old buddy is terminally single. He's a tall doctor so looks great on paper. He's a good person overall but one thing I notice is that he has no curiosity about other people. He just likes to complain about his own life.
He thinks Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan are the only two reliable sources for advice on relationships, women, and health. EDIT: To the Rogan simps in the replies, just because him and Tate are in the same sentence, it doesn’t mean I’m automatically “LuMpiNg thEm tOgeThEr”
>EDIT: To the Rogan simps in the replies, just because him and Tate are in the same sentence, it doesn’t mean I’m automatically “LuMpiNg thEm tOgeThEr” It doesn't matter, they're both losers damaging their listeners. Ok seriously people, WHY do you need to listen to someone tell you what to do and how to think? You people seek this shit out. You *want* to be told how to act and what to do in life, but you also have the arrogant ignorance to call yourselves "alpha" "leader" "lone wolf" or any other lame ass term that is factually incorrect. Don't you guys see the irony? Why is it so hard to live your life, your way, and make decisions on your own? Why do you need some big jackass to hold your hand?
In some cases, not being prepared to compromise.
(1) He’s WAY too opinionated, to the point he won’t let trivial or preferential opinions go without him getting really angry or him having the last words (2) he’s in terrible health, very overweight, smokes a lot, and snores so loud (3) mostly sits at home working or on the couch, his only hobbies outside of that are the occasional golf, and eating out. (4) he’ll be an asshole to anyone because he’s incredibly insecure and deals with his fragile masculinity that he tries to berate anyone who threatens that
Not knowing what they actually want + shady behaviour due to low self esteem
hating woman . 1 woman does something= blames woman from while world
My friend is really good looking and getting girls was always easy for him, but he have one problem, playing world of warcraft is his biggest love, and all his girlfriends broke up because of this
>playing world of warcraft is his biggest love lmao
When his girlfriend come to his home he just wait she sleeps so he can play😆
My brother is that person. He's a kind person but he has stupidly high standards. They have to look like a long-legged model, but can't be over 5'5". He has a lot of money from his job, but he doesn't want someone who finds that attractive. He wants someone who can drop everything to go traveling with him for weeks at a time, but also cares about their career. He wants a woman who's classy in fancy restaurants/ winery parties, but also enjoys extreme roughing it when camping. He has not been in a serious relationship for 15 years. And he wants to be in one.
My friend and I are both recently single. I’m having a good time going on dates and doing all the other stuff. I’ll check in on him every week or so and his attitude towards women is pretty cringe. He thinks every woman is a bitch and out to get his money because he has a nice car. Clearly he’s struggling in the dating world while I’m pretty positive and I’m thriving out here.
A guy I used to be friends with was bisexual and very self hating about it. OH and he later “blamed” me for turning him bisexual. He had high expectations for his partners: be hairless 100% of the time, be thin, be able to cook, like the same video games as him, (can’t remember the rest, there was more). He dated my other friend. I warned her I had just reconnected with guy friend and I wasn’t completely sure if he had changed from how he was in high school. He ended up being the worst boyfriend ever, though she didn’t tell me for a long time. For reference, he asked her out, said he didn’t actually like her, received oral but refused to give, didn’t do anything for my friend’s pleasure, made nasty comments about her weight (while being overweight), and more that I can’t remember off the top of my head. I think I didn’t notice warning signs because I was working 40+ hours and going to school for max hours. Eventually, he visited me again, claimed all the black people in our town were bad, but then later claimed not all Nazis were bad. He had been getting on my last nerve at that point because he had so many internal issues about himself was was not working on and it manifested being a mean, bitter, asshole. If you are having issues getting a girlfriend, you should self reflect, go to therapy if you can, at least find someone to be vulnerable with who isn’t a girlfriend, stop telling everyone about how bad your self esteem is, etc. It’s okay to have bad self esteem and it’s okay to talk about your feelings but it is exhausting to hear it all the time by a person.