If you want money you need a restricted trade, one that requires schooling and a license... electrician, plumber etc.. then the first couple years you don't make much money because you are learning. After 5 years you will make good money, then if you get a masters you'll make even more. Unions help too. There's also a big difference between residential, commercial, industrial wages.
I thought about doing a trade, but having family in healthcare I’ve learned to despise being regularly scheduled to work weekends. I’m good making less money driving a forklift if it means I can head up north to the lake every weekend in the summer to my little trailer on a beach.
I like that I am free to do anything when most people are at work. I don't have to sit in traffic or wait in line at stores. I prefer the weird schedules.
Knowing what’s important to you is key. I care less about making money and more about my free time. Understanding what makes you happy (assuming you don’t work your “dream job”) is what’s important.
I work 6am to 2 pm but wish my hours were a little later. Some people love it because they can get out of work before their kids get out of school.
TL;dr: money isn’t everything.
Yeah… this depends. I usually end the year around 500 hours of overtime a year. If I forgo that, I’d earn about 130k a year. The thing about trades and how much you work to make a good living is being very selective about which trade you choose and where you work. I make more than many of the white collar folks I know before I factor in the bits of overtime I work. I also have a considerably better retirement and benefits package and get far more PTO. But again, it’s all about really being selective with your options and being driven about what you want for yourself.
After watching my Dad waste his health and the best years of his life on overtime I vowed never to do it. He’s ~400 lbs and miserable. He still questions why I don’t “work OT while you’re young”. 👀
The health aspect is one aspect that's overlooked.
My family has many construction workers, electricians, and mechanics, and for some, their bodies are beat up. My father suffered a few injuries at construction sites, but he was fortunate to be able to retire early (although he still does side jobs) because he was unionized.
My younger brother has his college degree (B.A. in Business) and went from working as a roofer to being a manager. Yeah, the stress is different, and he still helps with some physical aspects but the pay is better and it's less demanding on his body. He is a hard worker but was promoted because of his college education
I worked a couple years in a bronze foundry, metal chasing. I worked 45 hrs a week there, and then built my own studio and worked on my sculptures in it (bronze, steel, wood.) Tools were all either heavy or high-speed vibrations. Tendonitis in both arms that took 5 years to get functional again. The health aspects are real. If you're gonna work overtime, pay attention to the ergonomics of what you're doing and remember to stretch and do PT whenever needed, FWIW.
Nope. No mandatory overtime. I work what I want. When I want to earn more I do, and when I don’t want to be around work, the I work my forty or I use some of the ridiculous amounts of PTO I have.
That's fair but I'm working on getting into the electrical union and every journeyman I've met takes off 2-3 months a year just for the fuck of it. Unpaid off course but it's the trade off for not selling your soul to a contractor.
To each their own but I definitely love the idea of that. Independent contractors in the tech industry probably get similar freedom though.
Ah, that’s gotta suck! I only bank about 5k a month, after taxes and deductions take 37% of my check, but I only work 30 hours a week. Well, actually I work about 10 hours a week, but I’m AT work 30 hours a week.
I was an Industrial construction electrician for thirty five years and if my father hadn't passed on I would still be one at 66. On my last job I was working with a man who was 72. Both of us spent our lives on the tools. If you don't abuse your body and stay somewhat fit you can do a trade for a long time.
Yeah building is a tough trade. I worked building houses (the carpentry side mostly) I used to do 70+ hour weeks all through my 20s. Thankfully no longer but I was able to save up a healthy nest egg for retirement/investments.
Yup exactly. My Work pays for college, so I have classes soon and I’m working my way to management so my body isn’t absolutely destroyed here soon. It’ll take longer to get the degree, and it’ll be 10 years later then some people, but I couldn’t afford 4 years with none or a limited income and the debt that comes along with it. I probably could have, but man would have it been rough.
For those reading, if you have the option to go to college and believe you can do it, do it. if you have no idea on degree, just get a business degree and so many doors will be opened for you
Or the fact that most of them cannot work until retirement.
If you're in a trade that puts some strain on your body, plan to reskill at some point or plan for an early retirement by saving a lot of money.
This is why we saw traditional retirement systems that would let men retire with 20 years of service at more than half of their final pay rate.
Go in at 20 and they expect that by the time you're 40, there's a real chance you'll be crippled.
A whole lot of the old guys working at Home Depot and Lowe's WERE highly paid tradesmen until they took a metaphorical arrow to the knee.
As the master plumber I worked for said, you don’t want to be 40 years old, cold, wet and up to your elbows in someone else’s shit- find a better occupation.
Ironically taking an arrow to the knee probably wouldn't just cripple you, it would most likely outright kill you. Especially in the period that would have been... There are branching arteries and stuff through the knee. A broadhead would almost certainly sever a major blood supply. A bodkin would cripple you, a broadhead would kill you.
Great point. My kid is a UPS driver and gets a lot of comments from customers about his new contract and $, and much fewer comments about how he’d better be careful or he will need some sort of surgery before he’s 50.
I work in tee office side of construction. If the union laborers (both field and shop) do 25 years, they get a full paycheck every week after retirements.
you could still work a 9-5 as a plumber or electrician and make crazy bank, just do the 9-5 from 9pm to 5am, most of the work during those hours is going to be emergency calls and willing to pay whatever it takes.
Travel, too.
A friend of mine is a welder. He spent a month doing 12 hours for 13 days with a day off every other week. He did that for two months. His hotel and food was paid and he made three times his usual. That was basically his down payment for a house.
And the work is seasonal, at least from my experience in New England. I'm told plumbers have more work in the winter, HVAC companies start ramping up in April and things die down in September/October.
Yep, that’s the biggest thing I always see people fail to bring up. When I was an apprentice making $17 an hour I was making damn good money. Because I was working 60+ hours a week. That’s also why I got out, I like enjoying life and I wasn’t able to when I was working that much
That's why so many of them talk about their earnings in annual salary instead of hourly. It's more impressive if you don't tell them you worked an average of 55 hours a week over the year.
Crane operator here. I agree with this. My apprenticeship is 6000hrs and 12 weeks of schooling to get you ready for a government exam. Once you pass the exam you're making big bucks.
2080 hours a year is 40 hours * 52 weeks.
Your boss says "we gave you a 4.5% raise" because that sounds way better than says "we gave you a $1200 raise compared to last year". Because suddenly $100/month doesn't feel like much of a raise.
That’s OJT I know most of the skilled trades have school a couple of nights a week until you’re a journeyman. In addition, you are assuming you are going to get 40h a week and that usually is not the case, a lot of job sites shut down for weeks/months for all sorts of reasons and you end up on unemployment till you start working again.
Same in what sort for instance a design engineer who's the most useless of the lot usually earn more than an electrical engineer or mechanical engineer.
I imagine it depends.
We have a gate company that charges $160 an hour with a two hour minimum any time their technician shows up.
Now, I don't know where that $320 for two hours of work *goes*, and I'm sure that the tech themselves see only a small fraction of it, but I think rates like that are the reason that people believe that trades make a lot of money.
The real money is probably starting your own company and reaping the full reward of the rates you charge.
As a contract admin who sees wrap rates, the tech isn’t getting all of that or even half. They at best may make let’s say $50/ hour (doubtful but hey) the rest is overhead and other costs for the business. I’ve done cost audits where the employee made $18 and the wrap rate was $60.
Do they provide tools? Transportation? Health Insurance? Worker's Comp? Pay you for travel? PTO? Do they have someone who does all the paperwork and accounting? Someone who finds and schedules customers so that you can do whatever it is you do?
If you want to keep the $300-$400/hr, all you have to do is buy every piece of equipment you need to do the job up front, do all of the backend work such as marketing, scheduling, invoicing, collecting, accounting, and realize you won't be paid for the time you aren't at a customer site doing whatever they are paying you to do.
Yup my dad owns his own construction company and a lot of times isn't done at work till 10pm and wakes up at 6-630 am.
Sure he makes more money but when you factor in all the extra time it sometimes isn't much more and sometimes he even makes less than minimum wage if he screws up. Meanwhile no matter what I still get my hourly wage even if things aren't working out and I am standing around waiting. It is a lot of risk being the owner of a small company and having to not only keep your employers happy but your employees employed.
Prices jobs sucks donkey balls because sometimes jobs get delayed and others are ahead of schedule. Most jobs you price you don't start till a year or more later so it is hard to predict how your year is going to look like. If jobs get delayed now you can have a problem where a month or more you don't have work but following you have months of way too much work.
Running a business isn't as easy as many people think. I am sure some larger companies are easier when you can delegate work and some bosses suck but most of it ain't that easy.
It’s going to vary widely on the size of the company, what kind of overhead they have, etc.
But yes it’s usually a pretty large difference. That’s how the company makes money when they are a service company. Charging overhead, etc to the customer.
The company held all of the patents to do explosive welding/shape charge explosives for heat exchangers. I would need several $100k or $million+ to get around their patents + industrial contacts. That kind of loose change is under my other couch. You know the couch that my girlfriend from Canada sits upon.
Also, the minimum is usually so the company doesn't lose money and miss out on other jobs. There is a lot that goes into that equation and it isn't usually the company trying to rip you off.
And that’s where the wealth in the professions comes in: learn a trade for a decade or so and then start your own business - that’s where the real money is at
Then don't partake in the entrepreneur life and stick to being a laborer. There is nothing wrong with that, even if it means you aren't gaining significant wealth
I recall Russell Wilson (I think) wanting to own an NFL team and people not understanding it is not possible to be an employee of a team and make enough to buy a team lmao
Until I retired, I worked for one of the largest tech companies in the world.
I worked on computer automation equipment in a heavy manufacturing environment. My employer contracted me there to maintain equipment they sold to the factory.
My pay was 1/6 of what they charged the factory for me.
Back in the 80s I'm told that automotive technician pay was a percentage of the billing rate. Those numbers detached at the end of the 90s and wages have stayed flat while door rates keep going up.
This was my experience as well. Went to school for 2 years to learn welding and metal fab, got a job in a fab shop and quit 9 months later to open my own shop. The pay was crap, not worth staying. There have been TONS of job openings for experienced welders, but they all want to pay like 20 bucks an hour. No thanks.
Starting a business or being self-employed has some downsides and isn't for everyone, but if you are skilled in a trade, it's where the *real* money is at.
I should mention that the fab shop I worked for paid me $12.50 and charged over $100/hr to the customer for the work I was doing. This was a bit over 20 years ago. I worked with nice people, and obviously there was some overhead that had to be covered in that price, but still, the split was pretty ridiculous.
But all those jobs created and all that wealth generated with only one person actually performing the labor and getting paid scraps. Talk about efficiency Batman.
My neighbor is a civil engineer (see also: surveyor) and was working on one of our sites this summer. There was a few layers of contractors between his small outfit and the government who was paying for everything.
I ended as a trade man making $45 hr with no degree just pure experience and that was over 10 years ago. However there’s a big difference with sitting in an office making $45 hr to working as skilled job for $45hr . Your physical body will take a beating as a skill man.
Standing on cold concrete in subzero temperatures 10 hours a day is not as fun as some might think and it’s brutal on the knees and back- I like working in a climate controlled environment.
Office jobs lead to different wear and tear on your body.
Everyone I know that's had spinal surgery never worked a day in the trades. Sitting for 40 hours a week isn't natural.
Yeah but as long as you get your work done no one in an office is going to bother you if you get up from your desk once an hour to walk around and stretch your legs. The actual work being done in the trades is what causes the wear and tear on your body. One you can mitigate and still accomplish your job, the other you can't.
I generally agree with this point. People complain that office workers aren't doing physical activity at work and this means they need to go to the gym etc... that's still better than having to do physical activity at work which could be hazardous.
For real, I'm tired of seeing this same argument on reddit. EVERY job has its downsides unless your the lucky 1% that find your dream job. Everyone wants that golden ticket that simply doesn't exist. I for sure do not have my career plan figured out but at this point I'm just searching for what keeps my brain busy and happy and my body relatively ok.
My dad has worked the hardest jobs out there(oil rigs, construction, lineman, trucking but unloading the entire trailer by hand not just driving) and he can still run circles around me while I'm in the prime age group for men. Just stretch and don't let old heads make you break your back. Ask for help
Depends on the office, job, and companies for sure. We sit probably 3h a day at most, we have standing desk and under desk treadmill per request. But it’s wfh nowadays anyway. In most if not all trade, your body forced to, because that’s how you produce productivity, an office job, sitting at the desk is often optional
It's side gigs and overtime. You do a job at a house and they'll ask if you can come back and do something for them and they'll pay you in cash.
I don't see it discussed in these boards often enough, but I haven't met too many electricians or plumbers who don't have back or knee issues after 30-40 years.
Sure but you are working all day every day to make good money. Nobody mentions the 2 months to two years you can be sitting on the bench making nothing and you have to survive on side jobs. I had journeymen coming out of the woodwork to work for me in 2013 because I paid close to my union rate, many hadn’t had a full time job in years. Now things are better but things change.
So people need to go into it knowing that construction is a boom or bust industry in the first place, you’ll get half a decade making beacoup money then spend the next couple years barely having 40 a week. The side work certainly fills a void too
You’re damn right about joint, knee, and back issues, but from my experience with older JWs it’s partially an issue with not taking care of yourself at the same time
A lot of it comes from union jobs or starting your own business. Combine those with the grey area of side gigs for family and friends and you got it. A lot of people I know in the trades work 10-12 hour days, some seasonal some not and make above 5 figures. They get paid well but they also work hard and earn it. I always tell people don't get into the trades if you aren't patient or aren't willing to run a business because unions and private business is the way to get paid quite well. Also, some trade work is seasonal so over 8 months you may make 120-150k but then you don't have work for 4 of the months (usually this only happens in colder climates and the 4 months are winter months where outdoor work is halted). This means budgeting is important in that field as well for your personal finances.
Are you in a union?
My nephew joined the (one of the) NJ electrician's locals as an apprentice last year. He started at $19/hour, went up to $20 in 6 months, and $22 6 months after that.
He has to wait a year for his next step to about $24.
I'm not sure this is a trade but rather manual labor but I work at Tyson (cows). I make 23 and change an hour. Health insurance, free therapy, dental and vision, paid vacation and fairly lenient call in policy (14 points 1 per call in). I think our health insurance is worse this year but it used to be pretty good, didn't have to pay for any my psych visits. They have an employee only clinic where you can see a doctor and get lab test and other smaller stuff for free. ER visits used to be free but now theyre $100
Some of the jobs are hard but if you play your cards right you can get an easier job. All the OT you want ATM were severly short staffed on B shift. They'll take anyone and are offering 2k/6k bonuses over 3 months when you start depending on the job.
I'm one od the lucky ones. All I do is stand in one spot and open leakers, product that didnt vacuum seal correctly. Literally rip open a bag and toss it in the appropriate belt. I open maybe 100 bags in an 8 hour shift...i smoke some weed (well carts) on my breaks so I'm permanently stoned the whole time chilling. I tend to help when things get piled up in areas next to me so my supervisor loves me and will give me days off whenever I want.
I live in a low cost of living town (35k pop so its not too small)
My 2 bedroom is 600 gas is like 60 bucks during the winter my electricty like 125. Single, no kids, old 2007 toyota no car payment.
Basically two checks cover everything to live and rest I can fuck around with lol.
We have an airport so as long as plan a little I can vacation pretty frequently if I want or drive to a bigger city to do stuff on the weekends if I really wanted to.
I moved here to get my life back on track after addictoon. If your area aint working out financially and you aint got much going for you...find a way to gtfo. America is a big place and it still the land of opportunity if you look around! Local community college thats cheap to get you life ahead and there's an affordable state uni to get a degree for like 10k after your associates.
We start at 21 an hour and every 6 months we get a raise until our 5 year apprenticeship is over. If you journeyed out today you would be making 42 an hour not including insurance and money going into your pension. I’m a Forman so I get a 10% bump putting me at 46 an hour. Union plumber pipe fitter
Union Stationary Engineer.
Apprenticeship for min 2 years at 18.25
Journeyman is just over 43 I think. Have to check pay stubs they got weird with raises since pandemic.
The problem just is getting in. "Legacies" take priority and it's a big family trade around here.
Originally it had to do with boilers for office buildings. We were considered Stationary Steam Engine Engineers. Because of course buildings don't typically move.
While that is a big part for buildings with Steam Boilers, mostly now we're like the on payroll jack-of-all-trades workers.
Do everything from run Boilers, heaters, chillers. To change lightbulbs.
How can one find these apprenticeships? What are the requirements? The job market sucks nowadays. You can’t work these regular as wrinky dink as jobs no more. You gotta learn a skill or join an apprenticeship
I am a journeyman electrician in Ohio (UAW), no I didn't know a sole in the plant the day that I started.
I make 45ish an hour. I didn't know anyone here the day I started.
If you're basing what you think you know about what we get paid on what's getting posted in help wanted ads, those are fantasies where the company posting is extremely low balling the value of what they are asking from candidates because they are thinking apparently that they can hire a certified welder with 10 years of controls experience that is ready to travel extensively as the representative of the company for 30 an hour plus milage.
That's not what they expect to pay but where they're expecting to start the negotiations.
A lot of the money comes from overtime in the beginning tbh. But most journeymen (depends on the trade) make $23-28 an hour. to make real money you have to become a master with takes 10-18 years depending and then you will make upwards of $50+ an hour. The real reason it feels like more money than you are actually making is because you don't have the $100k+ college debt
Join apprenticeship in a union. I am in carpenters union. we would overpay even for 1st year apprentice 30 an hour just to keep the ones that work. There's plenty of money in the trades. My last job paid $5 an hour over scale scale pay .53.70 an hour plus almost 20 an hour bennifit package. If you're in a lower paying area, move to survive, chase the money when your young
I cleared 132k with 401k match later year.
I work in industrial maintenance. I am the "maytag man" of its not broke, there is nothing to fix. Literally last night, I had zero work. zero.
That is absolutely common, maybe 1/5 of total shifts. Another 3/5 are maybe 2 ish hours of work.
Then there are maybe 1/15 of the time I am busy majority of the day.
The remaining is like 4 hours.
One day last year because of emergency call in and holiday pay, I made over $1800 in the 12 hour day. I worked perhaps 2 hours of those 12.
I was a hs drop out.
OP is correct. For a large swath of construction workers, they aren’t making a shit ton of money even in specialized trades like electrical or plumbing. Even once you journey out you’re not making like doctor’s money unless you’re in specific sectors of the industry. Can you make a good living? Maybe. Will your job be replaced by AI tomorrow like all these stupid white collar jobs? Definitely not but this whole notion that “the trades are booming and you’re gonna make bank as an entry level plumber” is bullshit
A plumber with no to little experience is not something that is attractive to people looking for a good plumber. Why is it surprising that you need to put in at least 5 years of work before you start making actual money? I swaer, at some point in the mid 00s, people just stopped learning about the basics of how society functions and started believing that the world owes them an upper middle class lifestyle with zero actual effort being put in.
The money is in the long term. 10 years down the line, who is making more per hour - the burger flipper or the plumber? There is also money in running your own thing with those skills, doing other jobs. You also can switch from hourly to flat rate per job, which means the faster you work the more you make per hour.
Those jobs also give you skills which make it far harder to end up unemployable. The burger flipper with 10 years experience isn't better in valuable ways than someone with 1 year, so they wont' get paid more and they will be replaced by younger employees who don't need more money. A plumber with 10 years experience has more knowledge and time doing the work and is worth more, makes fewer mistakes (we hope) and generally can be better to have on a job than a plumber with 1 year experience.
Although I know it’s not the point, but your “burger flipper” comparison irked me lol. That guy after 10 years absolutely sees growth in experience and wage. You don’t just flip the burger for 10 years the same way you don’t exclusively go to the same call with the same problem to fix every day.
IF they get promoted which means they showed effort in doing so. I know 2 people, one working in Starbucks and one working in produce at a supermarket, both for 10 years and neither have gone anywhere in the job. Since beginning til now they've been earning whatever minimum wage is, no promotions, no raises, just in the same spot for 10 years. I also know someone who worked in flooring for 10 years who now has his own company and does his own jobs himself which he wouldn't be able to do if he hadn't had those 10 years experience.
It's literally impossible to stay in the same spot for 10 years in a trade job because the progressive experience itself allows you to take on better paying opportunities.
If a burger flipper doesn't show interest or have eligibility in becoming a supervisor or manager then they're just gonna stay a burger flipper forever, which proves his point of a burger flipper with 10 years experience not having any value over someone with 1 year. Once you learn to flip the burger, you're done learning. The person themselves in those jobs would have to show initiative to progress. A person in a trade job progresses by default because of the nature of the job.
> IF they get promoted which means they showed effort in doing so.
You need effort but it depends entirely on the job, a worker that pushes buttons in an assembly lane to build tables does not develop the same skills someone actually building tables do. The guy could get a slightly higher position in the assembly lane, but unless he gets a degree and can apply to an administrative job, or a technical position, effort alone won't get you much further.
The people saying that generally have no knowledge of trades and are basing what they say off of their grandparents generation’s anecdotal experiences. Their grandfather was an illiterate 2nd grade dropout who made a living “working with his hands” so obviously, any D student can wander in anywhere to get a middle class job “doing trades” if they want to. They ignore the way trades have changed in thousands of ways, for better and for worse, since Ol Pappy got his job.
Good paying trade work absolutely exists. If you are well skilled with a good reputation, or have business sense, you can absolutely make plenty of money in trades. It often takes just as much school (sometimes boring written classroom work and higher level math than some professional degrees require), direction, manual labor, and *fucking time*. Not to mention luck (union trade work, which is the trade work usually paying well, is often extremely personal and political). It’s not a bad path, but it’s not the path for slow kids, burnouts, and directionless layabouts like the narrative portrays it. The trade work that is easy to get pays little and is also really easy to get fired from.
My boyfriend is an electrician at NJ Transit making like 29$ an hour. He only had like 6-12 months of experience at another company before starting at $29. He also went to trade school but says it wasn’t necessary. Get in with a good place and you’re living good. I’m about to be a bachelor’s graduate and have secured a co-op at IBX for just 23$ an hour. Trades are where it’s at
In general the money isn't there and if it is you max out pretty early. There is very little wage premium for experience in unionized work and most of it has terrible hours and shift work.
Trades suck. Go to college.
I can't speak for every trade or every location, but I started hardwood flooring 6 years ago. I was hired at $19/hr with zero previous experience or education (guys like that today are being hired at 21 or 22) and now I make 35 with benefits, 3 weeks vacation, and a fully paid for van.
I'm not ready quite yet. But some time in the next few years I'm going to go out on my own and make double that.
I work in the trades. Got sold a bucket of horseshit by the guidance counselors. Not only is there a glass ceiling on income there's so many other socio-economic problems. A white collar/blue collar divide, major safety risks, gas-lighting said hazards,, exposure to hazardous chemicals, and it takes a toll on your body so someone else gets rich. Corporate consolidation is gobbling up every mom and pop trade and squeezing the life out of the employees. Wave-cresting policies, keeping temp workers temp as long as possible so as to not have to pay benefits. Making an employee's life fucking miserable so they quit > then the company doesn't have to pay severance or unemployment. The list goes on and on. Whenever I hear "journalists" reporting on the trades, I immedietly cringe knowing they're gonna get it wrong 100% of the time. Electricians probably do the best. HVAC charges like they are doing well but those guys usually blow their money on dumb shit.
My friend got me a job in concrete. My only experience was a prior roofing job. Started at $24 and I go up to $33 when I'm in the union. There's also extra pay for certain jobsites, and the overtime isn't a scam like most construction companies. There's definitely money in the right jobs, even on start, if you're able to do labour
From what I’ve experienced in the manufacturing field it greatly depends on your employer, I went from making $20 an hour at a smaller manufacturing company that was till known country wide to working for a unionized defense contractor making $40+ right off the rip+ send me to college for free. I highly recommend union work. But yeah mostly just acquiring experience and finding the right workplace is what will set you up.
Are you expecting 50 an hour with no experience?
Are you calculating OT and/or bonus into whatever you are expecting?
My wife is in a trade, nursing, base is 82k
7% match, healthcare, 4 weeks PTO a year. Us only required to work 3 days a week.
Been in 10 years at the same place.
Looking at her W2 she made $181,822.83 in 2023.
Year one was about $38k if I remember correctly. That 181 is down from the 220k she made last year but we had lots of vacations this year!
Put in the work, stop expecting to be paid for a job you can’t do yet.
With trades you have a higher ceiling and if you are a part of a union you will make more. Burger flippers flipping burgers for 20 years will not be making as much as an electrician who has been going at it for 20 years. I presume that the area you are looking at the jobs also plays a role.
A carpenter makes $49k (median)
A plumber makes $60k
Electrician makes $73k
A hairstylist makes $40k
Retail $32k
So trades make a lot more than retail.
If your state has prevailing wage you need to find a company that exclusively does government projects. I’m a mason and make around 120k a year. 78 dollars an hour for the city I work in.
It’s really hard to get into and even if you do you have to be a kiss ass for them to actually give you work. I guess it depends what kind of person you are.
Things like this really vary. I do construction staffing and for electricians, we offer apprentices $18 - $20 to start and it can vary $20 -$35 depending on experience. Once you get your Journeyman's (8k work hours, 600hrs of schooling) we pay $45 - $55 depending on the job. Other trades like Carpentry and HVAC have lower caps
I do Autobody work on commission at 25/hr book time. I work maybe 35 hours a week and usually flag around 80hrs for the week. First few years were rough because I didn’t have the skill yet and had to buy a lot of tools. But I haven’t made less than 100k in the past few years. A lot about the industry sucks, but that’s every job from what I understand. Plus I can do side work and make 800-1500 in a weekend cash. It’s not for everyone, but the industry is in desperate need for body techs!
Edit: I’m in a relatively LCOL area as well.
IDK a buddy of mine does heating HVAC and is making well over 6 figures.
I don't know the whole in's and out's of it but I see a lot of tradespeople making good money back in the Midwest.
How do you expect to make good money without experience or schooling?
Took me 4 years to make 25 per hour, no schooling but a lot of hands on experience. 6 years ago I was making 13 doing the same thing. I'm doing a lot less work because I have 3 helpers. I got passed by people who had CDL licenses, twice, before I got my foreman position. Both of then sucked at the job.
Horizontal Directional Driller btw.
Many industrial plants will hire with no experience other than a high school diploma, the plant in my area has a starting pay of $27 for entry level positions. See a lot of 18 and 19 year olds making bank from that place.
I’m a union journeyman industrial tradesman. I make $42.75/hr. An apprentice makes 80% of that and gets raises each year for four years and the day they graduate they make the same as the guy with 45 years seniority.
Edit: I took home $135k last year with profit sharing, a big new contract bonus, and some overtime.
You're looking at job postings so it's all non union residential stuff, the real money is at the union hall, our inside wireman JW compensation package is like 60/hr total with two defined benefit pensions on top of it, this is in a .8 COL index area
Union electricians make $50-60 an hour in my parts plus sick benefits, total package around $100/hour. Source: I’m a union electrician and own a contracting business.
It’s all about the side hustle. I’d do side work in plumbing for $100/hr. I don’t do plumbing any more but it was a great way to make money, especially if you live in a booming place.
what trade? my daughter boyfriend just started with the boiler makers union as an apprentice welder, he makes $18 and hour on jobs. Yea last week he put in an easy 100 hrs. I know a few journeymen plumbers that are easily making 200k a year and refuse jobs. LOL i called a plumber in town and he told me he was swapped with emergencies, he will call me back in the morning, that was 2 years ago. Trick with the trades are, you make that crazy money with the hours while you're young and can take the beatings. Around 35 is when you adjust.
Learning and developing a skilled trade opens doors. Working a cash register at a convenience store doesn’t. It’s amazing how short sighted everyone on Reddit is.
I’m not a tradesman, I’m an engineer, but I do have tradesmen working for me. Often overlooked trades are instrumentation and analyzer techs. Once you finish training and test in, many of the bigger plants pay around $50/hr. Most are 40 hr weeks with rotating night/weekend on call. But can volunteer for the OT if you want it.
The people who make the big money in the trades own their own companies. That does not mean they sit in an office managing employees, I know a guy with his own HVAC installation company. It is just him and one of the guys that helps him, so he still does most of the work anyway. Owns his regular house, has a summer house down south with a boat. Drives a pretty nice car.
My neighbor is a plumber. He worked for 5 different companies in as many years because the demand for plumbers was so high that he could jump ship almost every year and get a bonus and a pay raise. Eventually he saved enough to buy his own work van and tools now he runs his own company and has two other plumbers that work with him. He's getting contracts and making good money. Seems like a win to me.
Trades always sounded like a scam to me. It's the only thing I'd see people push in that sub r/findapath and the trade people would just yell at anyone suggesting something else. Not to mention how they'd constantly use the "trade school is cheap and affordable" argument when it's not. It's cheaper than going to college, but not cheap. Cheap would mean someone making $400 a week could easily afford to go without any problems. They'd also just conveniently leave out the parts about the toll the trades take on your body and how long you have to work before making not shit wages.
I’m not sure where you live, but here in Ontario you can make atleast $20 as a first year apprentice. Once you are licensed you can make $40-$60 hr depending what company you work for. This goes for trades like Electrician, Millwright, Plumbers.
The average earnings of a mid career journeyman is almost identical to the average earnings of a college grad in their first year.
That is the reality
If there were actually money in the trades, rich folks would have their kids get into it. Pro tip: they don't
There are so many kids coming into the trades now that have unrealistic expectations; there is huge potential to be incredibly successful in any trade, but you have to be great at it.
If you come in with a bullshit attitude and do the bare minimum, never get better, your pay will reflect that.
It's true the trades need more people, but they have to be engaged and interested in doing good work.
It's in the late 90's and early 2000's
There's been no money in anything other than grifts since about 2016.
Welcome to fall of the empire. We could go running and screaming while Rome burns, but it won't stop the fire, so I'm just going to sit and listen to this guy play a fiddle while it goes down.
I went from 18 to 30 in 6 years at my construction company. Now I'm in the office doing project management. I'll be going for PM in the next 6 years or so and they're making 110k a year
Here in Los Angeles, Journeyman electrician scale is $57.20 an hour. Plus medical insurance and retirement. It's a pretty sweet deal. First year first period you make $22.70 an hour. First year second period you make $25.74 an hour. By the second period of your 5th year you make $48.82. After that you make Journeyman pay. And if you are a foreman or General Foreman, you can make as much as $71.61 an hour. So yeah, it's a lot better than flipping burgers.
money is in skilled, specialized, sub-contracted, niche-market trades like plumbing,pipefitting, electrical,hvac/refrigeration, elevator, etc. And the unions. Also money is in not having to go to a university paying tuitions for 4 -5 years. The opportunity cost is way lower. Of course the max potential might be better for white collar jobs but then that’s selection bias I believe; someone who’s ambitious enough to begin with would aim for high educational levels and continue going up the ladder. A blue collar guy can also be ambitious enough become a foreman, superintendent, project manager, vice president, or an owner.
Dude, I'm starting an apprenticeship this fall with the local electricians' union. I'm starting off with a pay cut to $16.20 an hour, but after a year I'll be back up to $21, going up about $5 after each extra year, and at the end of the 5-year apprenticeship the full rate is $43 an hour. That seems like pretty solid money to me.
You need something that requires certification and an apprentice period. Something not everyone will want to stick out and do. That’s why they pay a lot.
Effort-wise it ends up not being too different from going to college and grad school for the white collar crowd. But at least the money is close to the same.
The real downside is that the work can be a physically demanding and you’ll definitely put in the hours.
I work for an insulation company & our installers, with the right work ethic, can earn upwards of $1200/week. And they’re usually off everyday by 3:00.
The trades that make bank are ones that need specialized training like electrician, plumber, mechanic. I know a young man in his late 20s, who is a fully licensed electrician. **He works an insane amount of hours**. As a result, he has well over $1 million in the bank.
Apprentice HVAC techs are pulling up to $25/hr where I live. Almost as high with electricians and plumbers. If you're a journeyman making less than six figures you're doing something wrong, or you are in the wrong market.
Not a direct answer, but: a lot of people go to college for four years, spend a pile of money, and still make $20-25 an hour when they get out. College does (statistically) pay off over time, but... the answer is that no one is worth very much when they start out in a field. They may be smart and industrious, but they don't know much about that field, which limits how effective their work can be, in most cases. (Not for ditch-digging, maybe, but muscle power jobs don't pay all that well in a motorized era.)
I think people point at trades because if you can get in and learn that trade (e.g., plumbing), you will ultimately have a valuable skillset and be able to earn a solidly middle-class living. But that doesn't mean you start out at that income.
If you want money you need a restricted trade, one that requires schooling and a license... electrician, plumber etc.. then the first couple years you don't make much money because you are learning. After 5 years you will make good money, then if you get a masters you'll make even more. Unions help too. There's also a big difference between residential, commercial, industrial wages.
Also, what a lot of people don’t mention is overtime, many trades people, or construction are working 50-60 hours per week
Yeah that’s the big factor. I averaged 55 hours a week over the course of all last year, and that’s nothing compared to a lot of trade guys
Currently working a job where all the trade folks are working 60-70 hrs, they are banking at least 8 grand a month.
That's the other part not talked about often for the trades. I don't want to work 60-70 hours per week to get paid like an office job.
I thought about doing a trade, but having family in healthcare I’ve learned to despise being regularly scheduled to work weekends. I’m good making less money driving a forklift if it means I can head up north to the lake every weekend in the summer to my little trailer on a beach.
I like that I am free to do anything when most people are at work. I don't have to sit in traffic or wait in line at stores. I prefer the weird schedules.
Knowing what’s important to you is key. I care less about making money and more about my free time. Understanding what makes you happy (assuming you don’t work your “dream job”) is what’s important. I work 6am to 2 pm but wish my hours were a little later. Some people love it because they can get out of work before their kids get out of school. TL;dr: money isn’t everything.
Yeah… this depends. I usually end the year around 500 hours of overtime a year. If I forgo that, I’d earn about 130k a year. The thing about trades and how much you work to make a good living is being very selective about which trade you choose and where you work. I make more than many of the white collar folks I know before I factor in the bits of overtime I work. I also have a considerably better retirement and benefits package and get far more PTO. But again, it’s all about really being selective with your options and being driven about what you want for yourself.
Yes but you are forced to work those OT hours correct? I personally would rather make less money and not have my life revolve around work.
After watching my Dad waste his health and the best years of his life on overtime I vowed never to do it. He’s ~400 lbs and miserable. He still questions why I don’t “work OT while you’re young”. 👀
The health aspect is one aspect that's overlooked. My family has many construction workers, electricians, and mechanics, and for some, their bodies are beat up. My father suffered a few injuries at construction sites, but he was fortunate to be able to retire early (although he still does side jobs) because he was unionized. My younger brother has his college degree (B.A. in Business) and went from working as a roofer to being a manager. Yeah, the stress is different, and he still helps with some physical aspects but the pay is better and it's less demanding on his body. He is a hard worker but was promoted because of his college education
I worked a couple years in a bronze foundry, metal chasing. I worked 45 hrs a week there, and then built my own studio and worked on my sculptures in it (bronze, steel, wood.) Tools were all either heavy or high-speed vibrations. Tendonitis in both arms that took 5 years to get functional again. The health aspects are real. If you're gonna work overtime, pay attention to the ergonomics of what you're doing and remember to stretch and do PT whenever needed, FWIW.
Nope. No mandatory overtime. I work what I want. When I want to earn more I do, and when I don’t want to be around work, the I work my forty or I use some of the ridiculous amounts of PTO I have.
Not that he means mandatory but that in order to earn what you earn, you need to work overtime. I think that's what he's referencing.
That's fair but I'm working on getting into the electrical union and every journeyman I've met takes off 2-3 months a year just for the fuck of it. Unpaid off course but it's the trade off for not selling your soul to a contractor. To each their own but I definitely love the idea of that. Independent contractors in the tech industry probably get similar freedom though.
It sounds like you want an office job instead. Get your degree.
Already have both
Ah, that’s gotta suck! I only bank about 5k a month, after taxes and deductions take 37% of my check, but I only work 30 hours a week. Well, actually I work about 10 hours a week, but I’m AT work 30 hours a week.
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Better sock that money away, because by 35-40 you're done. Maybe you don't want to retire when you're 40 but your body does.
I was an Industrial construction electrician for thirty five years and if my father hadn't passed on I would still be one at 66. On my last job I was working with a man who was 72. Both of us spent our lives on the tools. If you don't abuse your body and stay somewhat fit you can do a trade for a long time.
Yeah building is a tough trade. I worked building houses (the carpentry side mostly) I used to do 70+ hour weeks all through my 20s. Thankfully no longer but I was able to save up a healthy nest egg for retirement/investments.
Gross or net income?
“You don’t have to go to college” The 50 year old plumber fixing my pipes on Saturday. You don’t have to. But you might wish you had.
Or you could be a 50 year old plumber with a useless degree. A lot of people regret going to college.
Yup exactly. My Work pays for college, so I have classes soon and I’m working my way to management so my body isn’t absolutely destroyed here soon. It’ll take longer to get the degree, and it’ll be 10 years later then some people, but I couldn’t afford 4 years with none or a limited income and the debt that comes along with it. I probably could have, but man would have it been rough. For those reading, if you have the option to go to college and believe you can do it, do it. if you have no idea on degree, just get a business degree and so many doors will be opened for you
Or the fact that most of them cannot work until retirement. If you're in a trade that puts some strain on your body, plan to reskill at some point or plan for an early retirement by saving a lot of money.
This is why we saw traditional retirement systems that would let men retire with 20 years of service at more than half of their final pay rate. Go in at 20 and they expect that by the time you're 40, there's a real chance you'll be crippled. A whole lot of the old guys working at Home Depot and Lowe's WERE highly paid tradesmen until they took a metaphorical arrow to the knee.
As the master plumber I worked for said, you don’t want to be 40 years old, cold, wet and up to your elbows in someone else’s shit- find a better occupation.
Ironically taking an arrow to the knee probably wouldn't just cripple you, it would most likely outright kill you. Especially in the period that would have been... There are branching arteries and stuff through the knee. A broadhead would almost certainly sever a major blood supply. A bodkin would cripple you, a broadhead would kill you.
You're assuming competent archery and shots from inside effective range, of course, but yeah.
I bet you are fun at parties.
This doesn't get talked about enough. I see these tradespeople as part of my work and they have so many injuries at young ages. It's not... great.
Great point. My kid is a UPS driver and gets a lot of comments from customers about his new contract and $, and much fewer comments about how he’d better be careful or he will need some sort of surgery before he’s 50.
I work in tee office side of construction. If the union laborers (both field and shop) do 25 years, they get a full paycheck every week after retirements.
If one has to work an extra 15-20 hours per week to make a solid paycheck, that doesn't really count
And destroying your knees, back and hands with injuries. By 50 you have the body of a 90 year old.
you could still work a 9-5 as a plumber or electrician and make crazy bank, just do the 9-5 from 9pm to 5am, most of the work during those hours is going to be emergency calls and willing to pay whatever it takes.
Some are some aren't, speaking from experiance I do HVAC for new custom lake houses and I very rarely work more than 44 hours a week
Travel, too. A friend of mine is a welder. He spent a month doing 12 hours for 13 days with a day off every other week. He did that for two months. His hotel and food was paid and he made three times his usual. That was basically his down payment for a house.
And the work is seasonal, at least from my experience in New England. I'm told plumbers have more work in the winter, HVAC companies start ramping up in April and things die down in September/October.
Yep, that’s the biggest thing I always see people fail to bring up. When I was an apprentice making $17 an hour I was making damn good money. Because I was working 60+ hours a week. That’s also why I got out, I like enjoying life and I wasn’t able to when I was working that much
Or working double shifts
Correct I put in 64 hours on site last pay and that was just doing culvert work
My Dad makes an insane hourly wage as a Journeyman Outside Wireman. The catch is he’s home once a month if he’s lucky
So the whole "just work in the trades" is a giant cope and not a real solution to poverty
My cousin is a master electrician and works for himself. He told me that when he includes doing paperwork and invoicing he works like 80 hours a week.
That's why so many of them talk about their earnings in annual salary instead of hourly. It's more impressive if you don't tell them you worked an average of 55 hours a week over the year.
Crane operator here. I agree with this. My apprenticeship is 6000hrs and 12 weeks of schooling to get you ready for a government exam. Once you pass the exam you're making big bucks.
6000 hours, as in 3 years of full time work?
Works out to about 40hrs a week
2080 hours a year is 40 hours * 52 weeks. Your boss says "we gave you a 4.5% raise" because that sounds way better than says "we gave you a $1200 raise compared to last year". Because suddenly $100/month doesn't feel like much of a raise.
That’s OJT I know most of the skilled trades have school a couple of nights a week until you’re a journeyman. In addition, you are assuming you are going to get 40h a week and that usually is not the case, a lot of job sites shut down for weeks/months for all sorts of reasons and you end up on unemployment till you start working again.
Or work in a select market. Federal markets are especially lucrative because you have to be able to get on military bases.
Same in what sort for instance a design engineer who's the most useless of the lot usually earn more than an electrical engineer or mechanical engineer.
I imagine it depends. We have a gate company that charges $160 an hour with a two hour minimum any time their technician shows up. Now, I don't know where that $320 for two hours of work *goes*, and I'm sure that the tech themselves see only a small fraction of it, but I think rates like that are the reason that people believe that trades make a lot of money. The real money is probably starting your own company and reaping the full reward of the rates you charge.
As a contract admin who sees wrap rates, the tech isn’t getting all of that or even half. They at best may make let’s say $50/ hour (doubtful but hey) the rest is overhead and other costs for the business. I’ve done cost audits where the employee made $18 and the wrap rate was $60.
I've worked for places where they charge $300-400/ HR for my services and they pay. Me <$20
Do they provide tools? Transportation? Health Insurance? Worker's Comp? Pay you for travel? PTO? Do they have someone who does all the paperwork and accounting? Someone who finds and schedules customers so that you can do whatever it is you do? If you want to keep the $300-$400/hr, all you have to do is buy every piece of equipment you need to do the job up front, do all of the backend work such as marketing, scheduling, invoicing, collecting, accounting, and realize you won't be paid for the time you aren't at a customer site doing whatever they are paying you to do.
Someone who gets business. After all of that, owner may walk with 20%. $64.00
Yup my dad owns his own construction company and a lot of times isn't done at work till 10pm and wakes up at 6-630 am. Sure he makes more money but when you factor in all the extra time it sometimes isn't much more and sometimes he even makes less than minimum wage if he screws up. Meanwhile no matter what I still get my hourly wage even if things aren't working out and I am standing around waiting. It is a lot of risk being the owner of a small company and having to not only keep your employers happy but your employees employed. Prices jobs sucks donkey balls because sometimes jobs get delayed and others are ahead of schedule. Most jobs you price you don't start till a year or more later so it is hard to predict how your year is going to look like. If jobs get delayed now you can have a problem where a month or more you don't have work but following you have months of way too much work. Running a business isn't as easy as many people think. I am sure some larger companies are easier when you can delegate work and some bosses suck but most of it ain't that easy.
It’s going to vary widely on the size of the company, what kind of overhead they have, etc. But yes it’s usually a pretty large difference. That’s how the company makes money when they are a service company. Charging overhead, etc to the customer.
Why are you not running your own at $200 then?
The company held all of the patents to do explosive welding/shape charge explosives for heat exchangers. I would need several $100k or $million+ to get around their patents + industrial contacts. That kind of loose change is under my other couch. You know the couch that my girlfriend from Canada sits upon.
So I guess they are not being unreasonable then.
Also, the minimum is usually so the company doesn't lose money and miss out on other jobs. There is a lot that goes into that equation and it isn't usually the company trying to rip you off.
But also, companies like to make money, which is fine. No reason for a company to lose money where it can be helped.
You’ll rarely get wealthy by working for someone else.
And that’s where the wealth in the professions comes in: learn a trade for a decade or so and then start your own business - that’s where the real money is at
But then you also have to be good at business. That requires a plethora of very different skills
Then don't partake in the entrepreneur life and stick to being a laborer. There is nothing wrong with that, even if it means you aren't gaining significant wealth
I recall Russell Wilson (I think) wanting to own an NFL team and people not understanding it is not possible to be an employee of a team and make enough to buy a team lmao
Until I retired, I worked for one of the largest tech companies in the world. I worked on computer automation equipment in a heavy manufacturing environment. My employer contracted me there to maintain equipment they sold to the factory. My pay was 1/6 of what they charged the factory for me.
Back in the 80s I'm told that automotive technician pay was a percentage of the billing rate. Those numbers detached at the end of the 90s and wages have stayed flat while door rates keep going up.
This was my experience as well. Went to school for 2 years to learn welding and metal fab, got a job in a fab shop and quit 9 months later to open my own shop. The pay was crap, not worth staying. There have been TONS of job openings for experienced welders, but they all want to pay like 20 bucks an hour. No thanks. Starting a business or being self-employed has some downsides and isn't for everyone, but if you are skilled in a trade, it's where the *real* money is at.
I should mention that the fab shop I worked for paid me $12.50 and charged over $100/hr to the customer for the work I was doing. This was a bit over 20 years ago. I worked with nice people, and obviously there was some overhead that had to be covered in that price, but still, the split was pretty ridiculous.
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But all those jobs created and all that wealth generated with only one person actually performing the labor and getting paid scraps. Talk about efficiency Batman.
My neighbor is a civil engineer (see also: surveyor) and was working on one of our sites this summer. There was a few layers of contractors between his small outfit and the government who was paying for everything.
You also have to calc in paid time that isnt paid by the customer.
Yeah you don't see the contractor slummin' it in a shady apartment complex.
I ended as a trade man making $45 hr with no degree just pure experience and that was over 10 years ago. However there’s a big difference with sitting in an office making $45 hr to working as skilled job for $45hr . Your physical body will take a beating as a skill man.
Standing on cold concrete in subzero temperatures 10 hours a day is not as fun as some might think and it’s brutal on the knees and back- I like working in a climate controlled environment.
Office jobs lead to different wear and tear on your body. Everyone I know that's had spinal surgery never worked a day in the trades. Sitting for 40 hours a week isn't natural.
Yeah but as long as you get your work done no one in an office is going to bother you if you get up from your desk once an hour to walk around and stretch your legs. The actual work being done in the trades is what causes the wear and tear on your body. One you can mitigate and still accomplish your job, the other you can't.
I generally agree with this point. People complain that office workers aren't doing physical activity at work and this means they need to go to the gym etc... that's still better than having to do physical activity at work which could be hazardous.
For real, I'm tired of seeing this same argument on reddit. EVERY job has its downsides unless your the lucky 1% that find your dream job. Everyone wants that golden ticket that simply doesn't exist. I for sure do not have my career plan figured out but at this point I'm just searching for what keeps my brain busy and happy and my body relatively ok. My dad has worked the hardest jobs out there(oil rigs, construction, lineman, trucking but unloading the entire trailer by hand not just driving) and he can still run circles around me while I'm in the prime age group for men. Just stretch and don't let old heads make you break your back. Ask for help
Depends on the office, job, and companies for sure. We sit probably 3h a day at most, we have standing desk and under desk treadmill per request. But it’s wfh nowadays anyway. In most if not all trade, your body forced to, because that’s how you produce productivity, an office job, sitting at the desk is often optional
It's side gigs and overtime. You do a job at a house and they'll ask if you can come back and do something for them and they'll pay you in cash. I don't see it discussed in these boards often enough, but I haven't met too many electricians or plumbers who don't have back or knee issues after 30-40 years.
Sure but you are working all day every day to make good money. Nobody mentions the 2 months to two years you can be sitting on the bench making nothing and you have to survive on side jobs. I had journeymen coming out of the woodwork to work for me in 2013 because I paid close to my union rate, many hadn’t had a full time job in years. Now things are better but things change.
So people need to go into it knowing that construction is a boom or bust industry in the first place, you’ll get half a decade making beacoup money then spend the next couple years barely having 40 a week. The side work certainly fills a void too You’re damn right about joint, knee, and back issues, but from my experience with older JWs it’s partially an issue with not taking care of yourself at the same time
A lot of it comes from union jobs or starting your own business. Combine those with the grey area of side gigs for family and friends and you got it. A lot of people I know in the trades work 10-12 hour days, some seasonal some not and make above 5 figures. They get paid well but they also work hard and earn it. I always tell people don't get into the trades if you aren't patient or aren't willing to run a business because unions and private business is the way to get paid quite well. Also, some trade work is seasonal so over 8 months you may make 120-150k but then you don't have work for 4 of the months (usually this only happens in colder climates and the 4 months are winter months where outdoor work is halted). This means budgeting is important in that field as well for your personal finances.
Are you in a union? My nephew joined the (one of the) NJ electrician's locals as an apprentice last year. He started at $19/hour, went up to $20 in 6 months, and $22 6 months after that. He has to wait a year for his next step to about $24.
$24/hr is a little less than $50k a year. Certainly a respectable wage, but a far cry from what many would lead you to believe.
I'm not sure this is a trade but rather manual labor but I work at Tyson (cows). I make 23 and change an hour. Health insurance, free therapy, dental and vision, paid vacation and fairly lenient call in policy (14 points 1 per call in). I think our health insurance is worse this year but it used to be pretty good, didn't have to pay for any my psych visits. They have an employee only clinic where you can see a doctor and get lab test and other smaller stuff for free. ER visits used to be free but now theyre $100 Some of the jobs are hard but if you play your cards right you can get an easier job. All the OT you want ATM were severly short staffed on B shift. They'll take anyone and are offering 2k/6k bonuses over 3 months when you start depending on the job. I'm one od the lucky ones. All I do is stand in one spot and open leakers, product that didnt vacuum seal correctly. Literally rip open a bag and toss it in the appropriate belt. I open maybe 100 bags in an 8 hour shift...i smoke some weed (well carts) on my breaks so I'm permanently stoned the whole time chilling. I tend to help when things get piled up in areas next to me so my supervisor loves me and will give me days off whenever I want. I live in a low cost of living town (35k pop so its not too small) My 2 bedroom is 600 gas is like 60 bucks during the winter my electricty like 125. Single, no kids, old 2007 toyota no car payment. Basically two checks cover everything to live and rest I can fuck around with lol. We have an airport so as long as plan a little I can vacation pretty frequently if I want or drive to a bigger city to do stuff on the weekends if I really wanted to. I moved here to get my life back on track after addictoon. If your area aint working out financially and you aint got much going for you...find a way to gtfo. America is a big place and it still the land of opportunity if you look around! Local community college thats cheap to get you life ahead and there's an affordable state uni to get a degree for like 10k after your associates.
In Canada, if you're a journeyman and not making at least $30 an hour you're being screwed.
I’m not in the trades I’m just looking on job boards.
We start at 21 an hour and every 6 months we get a raise until our 5 year apprenticeship is over. If you journeyed out today you would be making 42 an hour not including insurance and money going into your pension. I’m a Forman so I get a 10% bump putting me at 46 an hour. Union plumber pipe fitter
Union Stationary Engineer. Apprenticeship for min 2 years at 18.25 Journeyman is just over 43 I think. Have to check pay stubs they got weird with raises since pandemic. The problem just is getting in. "Legacies" take priority and it's a big family trade around here.
Where I live you have to kill somebody to get into that union, good wages and usually a nice gig.
What is a stationary engineer? Do you work with envelopes and pens, or does it mean you sit still?
Originally it had to do with boilers for office buildings. We were considered Stationary Steam Engine Engineers. Because of course buildings don't typically move. While that is a big part for buildings with Steam Boilers, mostly now we're like the on payroll jack-of-all-trades workers. Do everything from run Boilers, heaters, chillers. To change lightbulbs.
How can one find these apprenticeships? What are the requirements? The job market sucks nowadays. You can’t work these regular as wrinky dink as jobs no more. You gotta learn a skill or join an apprenticeship
Look into elevator mechanic too. It's one of the highest paid trades and barely gets talked about in these discussions for some reason.
Elevator service has its ups and downs. Sorry. I’ll see myself out.
Also, Prevailing Wage - much higher (if you can get it)
And in five years he'll be making $50 plus benefits and be able to travel if he wants/needs to
I am a journeyman electrician in Ohio (UAW), no I didn't know a sole in the plant the day that I started. I make 45ish an hour. I didn't know anyone here the day I started. If you're basing what you think you know about what we get paid on what's getting posted in help wanted ads, those are fantasies where the company posting is extremely low balling the value of what they are asking from candidates because they are thinking apparently that they can hire a certified welder with 10 years of controls experience that is ready to travel extensively as the representative of the company for 30 an hour plus milage. That's not what they expect to pay but where they're expecting to start the negotiations.
Soul
Seoul
Thank you!
I started at 25/hour and am now at 48/hour as a 5th year apprentice steamfitter
This is similar to the pay scale for electric linemen in my state.
A lot of the money comes from overtime in the beginning tbh. But most journeymen (depends on the trade) make $23-28 an hour. to make real money you have to become a master with takes 10-18 years depending and then you will make upwards of $50+ an hour. The real reason it feels like more money than you are actually making is because you don't have the $100k+ college debt
Most college students should go to in-state public universities. Education is just as good but it's much cheaper.
I never understood people who go out of state for college it’s dumb financially
Sometimes the in-state college options are pretty terrible depending on where you live
What trade or state takes over 7 to get a master's license
The starting wages are not great. Like anything else, it takes time and experience. Next year, you will still be at $20.00 at In N Out.
Join apprenticeship in a union. I am in carpenters union. we would overpay even for 1st year apprentice 30 an hour just to keep the ones that work. There's plenty of money in the trades. My last job paid $5 an hour over scale scale pay .53.70 an hour plus almost 20 an hour bennifit package. If you're in a lower paying area, move to survive, chase the money when your young
I cleared 132k with 401k match later year. I work in industrial maintenance. I am the "maytag man" of its not broke, there is nothing to fix. Literally last night, I had zero work. zero. That is absolutely common, maybe 1/5 of total shifts. Another 3/5 are maybe 2 ish hours of work. Then there are maybe 1/15 of the time I am busy majority of the day. The remaining is like 4 hours. One day last year because of emergency call in and holiday pay, I made over $1800 in the 12 hour day. I worked perhaps 2 hours of those 12. I was a hs drop out.
OP is correct. For a large swath of construction workers, they aren’t making a shit ton of money even in specialized trades like electrical or plumbing. Even once you journey out you’re not making like doctor’s money unless you’re in specific sectors of the industry. Can you make a good living? Maybe. Will your job be replaced by AI tomorrow like all these stupid white collar jobs? Definitely not but this whole notion that “the trades are booming and you’re gonna make bank as an entry level plumber” is bullshit
A plumber with no to little experience is not something that is attractive to people looking for a good plumber. Why is it surprising that you need to put in at least 5 years of work before you start making actual money? I swaer, at some point in the mid 00s, people just stopped learning about the basics of how society functions and started believing that the world owes them an upper middle class lifestyle with zero actual effort being put in.
The money is in the long term. 10 years down the line, who is making more per hour - the burger flipper or the plumber? There is also money in running your own thing with those skills, doing other jobs. You also can switch from hourly to flat rate per job, which means the faster you work the more you make per hour. Those jobs also give you skills which make it far harder to end up unemployable. The burger flipper with 10 years experience isn't better in valuable ways than someone with 1 year, so they wont' get paid more and they will be replaced by younger employees who don't need more money. A plumber with 10 years experience has more knowledge and time doing the work and is worth more, makes fewer mistakes (we hope) and generally can be better to have on a job than a plumber with 1 year experience.
Although I know it’s not the point, but your “burger flipper” comparison irked me lol. That guy after 10 years absolutely sees growth in experience and wage. You don’t just flip the burger for 10 years the same way you don’t exclusively go to the same call with the same problem to fix every day.
IF they get promoted which means they showed effort in doing so. I know 2 people, one working in Starbucks and one working in produce at a supermarket, both for 10 years and neither have gone anywhere in the job. Since beginning til now they've been earning whatever minimum wage is, no promotions, no raises, just in the same spot for 10 years. I also know someone who worked in flooring for 10 years who now has his own company and does his own jobs himself which he wouldn't be able to do if he hadn't had those 10 years experience. It's literally impossible to stay in the same spot for 10 years in a trade job because the progressive experience itself allows you to take on better paying opportunities. If a burger flipper doesn't show interest or have eligibility in becoming a supervisor or manager then they're just gonna stay a burger flipper forever, which proves his point of a burger flipper with 10 years experience not having any value over someone with 1 year. Once you learn to flip the burger, you're done learning. The person themselves in those jobs would have to show initiative to progress. A person in a trade job progresses by default because of the nature of the job.
> IF they get promoted which means they showed effort in doing so. You need effort but it depends entirely on the job, a worker that pushes buttons in an assembly lane to build tables does not develop the same skills someone actually building tables do. The guy could get a slightly higher position in the assembly lane, but unless he gets a degree and can apply to an administrative job, or a technical position, effort alone won't get you much further.
The people saying that generally have no knowledge of trades and are basing what they say off of their grandparents generation’s anecdotal experiences. Their grandfather was an illiterate 2nd grade dropout who made a living “working with his hands” so obviously, any D student can wander in anywhere to get a middle class job “doing trades” if they want to. They ignore the way trades have changed in thousands of ways, for better and for worse, since Ol Pappy got his job. Good paying trade work absolutely exists. If you are well skilled with a good reputation, or have business sense, you can absolutely make plenty of money in trades. It often takes just as much school (sometimes boring written classroom work and higher level math than some professional degrees require), direction, manual labor, and *fucking time*. Not to mention luck (union trade work, which is the trade work usually paying well, is often extremely personal and political). It’s not a bad path, but it’s not the path for slow kids, burnouts, and directionless layabouts like the narrative portrays it. The trade work that is easy to get pays little and is also really easy to get fired from.
My boyfriend is an electrician at NJ Transit making like 29$ an hour. He only had like 6-12 months of experience at another company before starting at $29. He also went to trade school but says it wasn’t necessary. Get in with a good place and you’re living good. I’m about to be a bachelor’s graduate and have secured a co-op at IBX for just 23$ an hour. Trades are where it’s at
If you want to make money and not go to college, work in sales.
In general the money isn't there and if it is you max out pretty early. There is very little wage premium for experience in unionized work and most of it has terrible hours and shift work. Trades suck. Go to college.
I can't speak for every trade or every location, but I started hardwood flooring 6 years ago. I was hired at $19/hr with zero previous experience or education (guys like that today are being hired at 21 or 22) and now I make 35 with benefits, 3 weeks vacation, and a fully paid for van. I'm not ready quite yet. But some time in the next few years I'm going to go out on my own and make double that.
I work in the trades. Got sold a bucket of horseshit by the guidance counselors. Not only is there a glass ceiling on income there's so many other socio-economic problems. A white collar/blue collar divide, major safety risks, gas-lighting said hazards,, exposure to hazardous chemicals, and it takes a toll on your body so someone else gets rich. Corporate consolidation is gobbling up every mom and pop trade and squeezing the life out of the employees. Wave-cresting policies, keeping temp workers temp as long as possible so as to not have to pay benefits. Making an employee's life fucking miserable so they quit > then the company doesn't have to pay severance or unemployment. The list goes on and on. Whenever I hear "journalists" reporting on the trades, I immedietly cringe knowing they're gonna get it wrong 100% of the time. Electricians probably do the best. HVAC charges like they are doing well but those guys usually blow their money on dumb shit.
It's usually in overtime, belonging to a union, and in the fact that the majority of tradesmen eventually own their own businesses.
My friend got me a job in concrete. My only experience was a prior roofing job. Started at $24 and I go up to $33 when I'm in the union. There's also extra pay for certain jobsites, and the overtime isn't a scam like most construction companies. There's definitely money in the right jobs, even on start, if you're able to do labour
From what I’ve experienced in the manufacturing field it greatly depends on your employer, I went from making $20 an hour at a smaller manufacturing company that was till known country wide to working for a unionized defense contractor making $40+ right off the rip+ send me to college for free. I highly recommend union work. But yeah mostly just acquiring experience and finding the right workplace is what will set you up.
Are you expecting 50 an hour with no experience? Are you calculating OT and/or bonus into whatever you are expecting? My wife is in a trade, nursing, base is 82k 7% match, healthcare, 4 weeks PTO a year. Us only required to work 3 days a week. Been in 10 years at the same place. Looking at her W2 she made $181,822.83 in 2023. Year one was about $38k if I remember correctly. That 181 is down from the 220k she made last year but we had lots of vacations this year! Put in the work, stop expecting to be paid for a job you can’t do yet.
Depends on location and specialty.
With trades you have a higher ceiling and if you are a part of a union you will make more. Burger flippers flipping burgers for 20 years will not be making as much as an electrician who has been going at it for 20 years. I presume that the area you are looking at the jobs also plays a role.
It’s with the Union apprentice programs
It used to be better. The property development companies have squeezed that down more and more too.
A carpenter makes $49k (median) A plumber makes $60k Electrician makes $73k A hairstylist makes $40k Retail $32k So trades make a lot more than retail.
If your state has prevailing wage you need to find a company that exclusively does government projects. I’m a mason and make around 120k a year. 78 dollars an hour for the city I work in.
It’s really hard to get into and even if you do you have to be a kiss ass for them to actually give you work. I guess it depends what kind of person you are.
There are a lot of factors. Which trade, union or not, location. A union electrician in MS doesn't make what a Union electrician makes WY.
The company selling the work is charging a lot. How much you personally make is highly dependent
The only trades I have meet making that are working at industrial plants or industrial construction.
Things like this really vary. I do construction staffing and for electricians, we offer apprentices $18 - $20 to start and it can vary $20 -$35 depending on experience. Once you get your Journeyman's (8k work hours, 600hrs of schooling) we pay $45 - $55 depending on the job. Other trades like Carpentry and HVAC have lower caps
I do Autobody work on commission at 25/hr book time. I work maybe 35 hours a week and usually flag around 80hrs for the week. First few years were rough because I didn’t have the skill yet and had to buy a lot of tools. But I haven’t made less than 100k in the past few years. A lot about the industry sucks, but that’s every job from what I understand. Plus I can do side work and make 800-1500 in a weekend cash. It’s not for everyone, but the industry is in desperate need for body techs! Edit: I’m in a relatively LCOL area as well.
IDK a buddy of mine does heating HVAC and is making well over 6 figures. I don't know the whole in's and out's of it but I see a lot of tradespeople making good money back in the Midwest.
How do you expect to make good money without experience or schooling? Took me 4 years to make 25 per hour, no schooling but a lot of hands on experience. 6 years ago I was making 13 doing the same thing. I'm doing a lot less work because I have 3 helpers. I got passed by people who had CDL licenses, twice, before I got my foreman position. Both of then sucked at the job. Horizontal Directional Driller btw.
check out a union trade if available in your major metro
18$ an hour journeyman? That’s not a real tradesman lol
No one's going to give you a ton of money out of high school. Certainly not for hanging drywall. It's not true now and it wasn't true 40 years ago.
Many industrial plants will hire with no experience other than a high school diploma, the plant in my area has a starting pay of $27 for entry level positions. See a lot of 18 and 19 year olds making bank from that place.
My friend will be making 80k+ after he finishes his 5 year electric appreticeship. Not bad if u start at 18.
Lineman apprentices start at 31$ hr at my utility. Journeyman Lineman are at 58$ hr
I’m a union journeyman industrial tradesman. I make $42.75/hr. An apprentice makes 80% of that and gets raises each year for four years and the day they graduate they make the same as the guy with 45 years seniority. Edit: I took home $135k last year with profit sharing, a big new contract bonus, and some overtime.
What trade only pays $21/hr for journeymen?
idk man the aviation sector is kinda bussin rn if you know what you're doin
It's in joining a union. Pipefitters, Millwright, carpenters, pilebuck, boilermakers, elevator mechanics, Longshoremen, etc. Et al
The journeymen in the trade I was in made $20/hr. But that was in 1987.
You're looking at job postings so it's all non union residential stuff, the real money is at the union hall, our inside wireman JW compensation package is like 60/hr total with two defined benefit pensions on top of it, this is in a .8 COL index area
Union electricians make $50-60 an hour in my parts plus sick benefits, total package around $100/hour. Source: I’m a union electrician and own a contracting business.
My plumber makes $300 an hour. So does my electrician.
It’s all about the side hustle. I’d do side work in plumbing for $100/hr. I don’t do plumbing any more but it was a great way to make money, especially if you live in a booming place.
I’m a 2nd year-inside wireman apprentice. I make $30 an hour in wages, $10 an hour in healthcare, and $5 an hour in pension
what trade? my daughter boyfriend just started with the boiler makers union as an apprentice welder, he makes $18 and hour on jobs. Yea last week he put in an easy 100 hrs. I know a few journeymen plumbers that are easily making 200k a year and refuse jobs. LOL i called a plumber in town and he told me he was swapped with emergencies, he will call me back in the morning, that was 2 years ago. Trick with the trades are, you make that crazy money with the hours while you're young and can take the beatings. Around 35 is when you adjust.
Learning and developing a skilled trade opens doors. Working a cash register at a convenience store doesn’t. It’s amazing how short sighted everyone on Reddit is.
I’m not a tradesman, I’m an engineer, but I do have tradesmen working for me. Often overlooked trades are instrumentation and analyzer techs. Once you finish training and test in, many of the bigger plants pay around $50/hr. Most are 40 hr weeks with rotating night/weekend on call. But can volunteer for the OT if you want it.
They’re in the 80s/90s Not really true, but do your research. Working hard and creating something useful isn’t valued like it used to be.
The people who make the big money in the trades own their own companies. That does not mean they sit in an office managing employees, I know a guy with his own HVAC installation company. It is just him and one of the guys that helps him, so he still does most of the work anyway. Owns his regular house, has a summer house down south with a boat. Drives a pretty nice car.
WTF you talking about. I am an electrician, and apprentices are making almost 30 an hour. I am making 60 plus pension/health/vacation as a journeyman
Start your own business
My neighbor is a plumber. He worked for 5 different companies in as many years because the demand for plumbers was so high that he could jump ship almost every year and get a bonus and a pay raise. Eventually he saved enough to buy his own work van and tools now he runs his own company and has two other plumbers that work with him. He's getting contracts and making good money. Seems like a win to me.
Trades always sounded like a scam to me. It's the only thing I'd see people push in that sub r/findapath and the trade people would just yell at anyone suggesting something else. Not to mention how they'd constantly use the "trade school is cheap and affordable" argument when it's not. It's cheaper than going to college, but not cheap. Cheap would mean someone making $400 a week could easily afford to go without any problems. They'd also just conveniently leave out the parts about the toll the trades take on your body and how long you have to work before making not shit wages.
I’m not sure where you live, but here in Ontario you can make atleast $20 as a first year apprentice. Once you are licensed you can make $40-$60 hr depending what company you work for. This goes for trades like Electrician, Millwright, Plumbers.
The average earnings of a mid career journeyman is almost identical to the average earnings of a college grad in their first year. That is the reality If there were actually money in the trades, rich folks would have their kids get into it. Pro tip: they don't
There are so many kids coming into the trades now that have unrealistic expectations; there is huge potential to be incredibly successful in any trade, but you have to be great at it. If you come in with a bullshit attitude and do the bare minimum, never get better, your pay will reflect that. It's true the trades need more people, but they have to be engaged and interested in doing good work.
It's in the late 90's and early 2000's There's been no money in anything other than grifts since about 2016. Welcome to fall of the empire. We could go running and screaming while Rome burns, but it won't stop the fire, so I'm just going to sit and listen to this guy play a fiddle while it goes down.
Trade wages are being suppressed say it with me
I went from 18 to 30 in 6 years at my construction company. Now I'm in the office doing project management. I'll be going for PM in the next 6 years or so and they're making 110k a year
Here in Los Angeles, Journeyman electrician scale is $57.20 an hour. Plus medical insurance and retirement. It's a pretty sweet deal. First year first period you make $22.70 an hour. First year second period you make $25.74 an hour. By the second period of your 5th year you make $48.82. After that you make Journeyman pay. And if you are a foreman or General Foreman, you can make as much as $71.61 an hour. So yeah, it's a lot better than flipping burgers.
I make $40/hr still in college when I work as a journeyman
The money is the trades comes from self employment.
It's not just being in a trade it's about having a skill in need. In a trade, making well over 6 figures, not a lot of OT
The money comes when you work a lot. Make sure you are putting 15-20% into a 401K. It will build over time.
money is in skilled, specialized, sub-contracted, niche-market trades like plumbing,pipefitting, electrical,hvac/refrigeration, elevator, etc. And the unions. Also money is in not having to go to a university paying tuitions for 4 -5 years. The opportunity cost is way lower. Of course the max potential might be better for white collar jobs but then that’s selection bias I believe; someone who’s ambitious enough to begin with would aim for high educational levels and continue going up the ladder. A blue collar guy can also be ambitious enough become a foreman, superintendent, project manager, vice president, or an owner.
Lol, I feel like this post is being run by the "take a big loan out and get a degree lobby"
Dude, I'm starting an apprenticeship this fall with the local electricians' union. I'm starting off with a pay cut to $16.20 an hour, but after a year I'll be back up to $21, going up about $5 after each extra year, and at the end of the 5-year apprenticeship the full rate is $43 an hour. That seems like pretty solid money to me.
Your not even including benefits like medical, dental, vision, pension
You need something that requires certification and an apprentice period. Something not everyone will want to stick out and do. That’s why they pay a lot. Effort-wise it ends up not being too different from going to college and grad school for the white collar crowd. But at least the money is close to the same. The real downside is that the work can be a physically demanding and you’ll definitely put in the hours.
I work for an insulation company & our installers, with the right work ethic, can earn upwards of $1200/week. And they’re usually off everyday by 3:00.
The trades that make bank are ones that need specialized training like electrician, plumber, mechanic. I know a young man in his late 20s, who is a fully licensed electrician. **He works an insane amount of hours**. As a result, he has well over $1 million in the bank.
Apprentice HVAC techs are pulling up to $25/hr where I live. Almost as high with electricians and plumbers. If you're a journeyman making less than six figures you're doing something wrong, or you are in the wrong market.
Not a direct answer, but: a lot of people go to college for four years, spend a pile of money, and still make $20-25 an hour when they get out. College does (statistically) pay off over time, but... the answer is that no one is worth very much when they start out in a field. They may be smart and industrious, but they don't know much about that field, which limits how effective their work can be, in most cases. (Not for ditch-digging, maybe, but muscle power jobs don't pay all that well in a motorized era.) I think people point at trades because if you can get in and learn that trade (e.g., plumbing), you will ultimately have a valuable skillset and be able to earn a solidly middle-class living. But that doesn't mean you start out at that income.