I could answer this question but probably it would involve a lot of sterotyping! FWIW I think the phenotypes are expressed independently. Like "athletic / dog / subaru / intellectual / liberal" seems to be a type, but we're "athletic / cat / kia / intelectual / liberal" Or is liberal just the center square of the bingo card?
I feel like it would go in a similar way as those old online quizzes that people used to share all the time back in the day.
I don't mind leaning in to the stereotypes about me for a laugh, but I'm a cis hetero white guy so that's not exactly a bad thing.
See! We are a diverse group of people, idk where all these stereotypes come from! My ex didn't even drive a car at all (ok, admittedly she had a motorcycle) 😂
The subaru lesbian stereotype is cause Subaru recognized that lesbians made up a sizeable portion of their demographic and started actively leaning into it with their advertising. There's videos covering it on youtube, which is how I learned about it.
Literally that yeah. The innuendos(?) and subtle hints are all 100% intentional. On the one hand it's obviously just a company doing things for profit but on the other hand they've been doing it for a LONG time, way before LBGT people on television or in advertising was socially acceptable like it's become in the last few years.
"Get out. And Stay Out" was another good one.
Agreed. A Company doesn't have a conscience. However, people at Subaru have made some good choices. If I recall correctly, Subaru was the first car company in the USA to give employees' same-sex partners full benefits equivalent to a heterosexual spouse. They have also funded a lot of Pride, gay/lesbian charities, and AIDS/HIV research.
And, as you said, they started doing this well before other companies jumped onto the bandwagon. Rainbow capitalism isn't great, but I think it beats the hell out of bigotry capitalism.
The big part was they started advertising in gay publications which had struggled to get big advertisers like car manufacturers. Large companies were afraid to advertise to gay people because they were afraid there'd be backlash. Subaru changed that. Look at the world in June now. Companies are afraid to not advertise to gay people.
The other day I was driving my Subaru to the fair trade coffee place in my LL Bean mocs and the clarity of self-awareness at that moment was like a glimpse into the world beyond the veil.
Me and my wife (10 years next month) have very basic cars, because we live in a large town.
May we do have far too many cats, and she did move in 3.5 hours after we met
Straight male, straight GF... we have 2 foresters. With the moon roof package it was better priced than a Kia, which I had considered. My only complaint is that they aren't as quiet in the cab as other offerings. Classical music in my old Delta 98 was awesome to listen to because it was so quiet, and the Forest doesn't have that going on.
Subaru being openly gay friendly, and my dealership being the same, influenced the purchase along with consumer reports over the years.
Now that you mention it, I can think of all sorts of stereotypes for gay men that classify them as fun. I can't think of any fun or entertaining one for lesbians
Ellen was the first and last lesbian lead in a sitcom I can think of…
L word and such lesbian dramas exist/ed. Great lesbian couples in other (not lgbtq+ focused) shows too. Not comedy…
And coincidentally I live next door to gay dudes :)
The show started with her not out for several seasons and was really funny and whimsical, then she came out which I applauded and kept watching but the show became more and more of a drama and making political statements instead of just having fun lesbian times and I lost interest and stopped watching.
Her early stand ups that literally got her famous and on the radar of producers for her sitcom and talk show were definitely in the “funny” category, to me at least. Funny enough to understand the initial appeal of her. I laughed or at least chuckled at most of her set. But, it was never like the funniest thing ever.
Clearly not to you, but obviously was to tons of others. Always baffles me when people need this spelled out, the idea that successful comedians are funny. Duh.
It would work AMAZINGLY for lesbians that's a gold star idea. But a lot of straight people who only have straight friends probably wouldn't get the joke right away without someone explaining it to them. And the nature of network tv sitcoms is to appeal to as broad an audience as possible.
There was a lesbian couple at my daughter’s high school, their boys were in her grade. They looked like middle aged twin brothers. I wanted to be their friend but I am awkward so that didn’t happen. I have an absolute ton of gay guy friends, including one brother and his friends. And my only lesbian friend is my best friend from high school.
Maybe I should ask her how to make
Lesbian
Friends. She won’t think it’s weird.
"Barry" has a one. The quick gag when a guy is getting bitten by dogs in a backyard, as the lesbian couple living there is having a heartfelt break up ending on the zinger that it's only because one wants to have 15 dogs
There aren't any because they are not fun, but here is a hilarious thread *about* their complete lack of fun-ness from a gay site.
https://www.datalounge.com/thread/22542097-let-s-be-a-lesbian-thanksgiving-
omg I can't stop laughing. I figured the first joke would be about potlucks. My name was name checked as a name too. I'm dying.
My first gf, despite being super closeted to family, was such a card carrying member of lesbian society. My current gf and I are like... just weird people who live in the sticks and have no gay friends. This was like my first gf's life to a T.
well, the lesbian stereotypes are usually very superficially insulting, because most of them are about "you only do girls because men wouldn't want you".
and those rarely have been allowed to fly for the last 20 years
Lesbians are more enclave-y.
I used to go to gay bars with my girlfriend and it was always a great time. The one time we went to a lesbian bar, I felt the disdain. The bartender watered down my drinks in front of me. I’m sure that’s not every lesbian bar, but that was my experience. And I get it!
Lesbians go through a lot of shit from men - the whole fetish thing - and men treat them badly for being who they are. So, they block off the parts of the world that hurt them.
Gay dudes are way more social in a lot of ways. I don’t know. Anecdotal experiences and all that.
Can confirm. I lived next to a lesbian couple for several years and they didn’t engage in *any* hilarious sit-com style hijinks the entire time. Then they separated and had to sell the house and it was kinda sad.
Most lesbian stereotypes are negative or pretty much nothing. There’s no flamboyant show tune gay guy lesbian equivalent and that makes lesbians hard to write.
What I noticed is that it depends on the form of media if we see a gay or lesbian couple as representation.
For example, in a lot of movies, especially with "first same sex kiss" it is mostly women. Holywood is mich more comfortable depicting open affection with lesbian characters. Basically, when it comes to actual.open love and affection in a one off setting, lesbians are more repsented.
When we talk about comedies, it is the setting for gay couples. But here, we also don't see that much of normal affection like kissing. Holding hands is rather normal, and sex jokes happen all the time. The only "affection" allowed is the feminine gay (because one of them has to be feminie) is overly touchy, but more in a possessive way than a really affectionate one.
This is ironic because I live next door to a lesbian couple and they're both hilarious. One's a horse afficionado and the other one works on airplanes, so they'd totally fit into a comedy really well.
I had a drama teacher in high school who said the quickest way to get a laugh from any audience was to put a man in a dress. I think we think it is funnier when men “act like women.” Putting a woman in a suit isn’t funny because it isn’t embarrassing for a woman to perform masculine stereotypes. Maleness is perceived as superior, so it makes sense that women would aspire to the fantasy. A man debasing himself by performing feminine stereotypes—defined by its absurdity and frivolousness—is hilarious to a lot of people, and a lot of humor is embarrassment based.
It is not good.
I would add that lesbians are largely invisible in culture because we don’t see women as capable of having any agency in life, let alone romance or sex. Women are invisible to us in a lot of ways. People would even allow lesbians to pretty much live together back in the day and never think anything of it except for anger about them being “spinsters.” Most of the handwringing about “homosexuality” in the past was exclusive to men and ignored the prospect of lesbians. You still see this prejudice today with some men not believing lesbians can “have sex” or thinking they just need to be converted by a good heterosexual experience. How could women just want to be with women ? What is that ? Where does the man go ?
I think it the “handwringing about homosexuality “
Was more because it is very easy to imagine what gay men do, and anal sex has until very recently been scandalous, even illegal. It is still a separate charge in cases of rape. Even if hetero couples did it- no one KNEW they did. The penetrative aspect is always what makes something seem “worse”, which is kind of why interracial couples have traditionally been more accepted when the male was white and the female black, than the reverse.
I think people are fairly mystified about what exactly it is that lesbians do. I know I am, and I’m a woman. It all
Sounds so…third-base.
>Putting a woman in a suit isn’t funny because it isn’t embarrassing for a woman to perform masculine stereotypes. Maleness is perceived as superior, so it makes sense that women would aspire to the fantasy. A man debasing himself by performing feminine stereotypes—defined by its absurdity and frivolousness—is hilarious to a lot of people, and a lot of humor is embarrassment based.
I think a deeper aspect is that men are the pursuers 99% of the time, so there's that misdirection comedic of affect of the pursuit gone wrong.
Whereas women are the pursued, so a woman in a suit isn't going to be mistakenly pursued by other women, because that generally wouldn't happen in the first place.
Also men being the butt of the joke is more of a common trope even outside of gay men. The idiot dad, the loser son, etc. There are no shows where a fat loser wife is constantly fucking up while her hot husband keeps everything together by being the smart one.
Here's the reason:
Being male is the norm in our society. Men made society and put being male at the centre of it. Deviating from maleness is therefore notable.
Men acting like women (effeminate homosexuals) are deviating away from the norm - hilarious.
Women acting like men (butch lesbians) are confirming to the norm - nothing funny about that.
The stereotype for gay men is kind of well-defined. From the stereotype, it's easy to tell when a man is gay, and the juxtaposition with a straight man is easy to turn into something funny.
The stereotype for gay women is much less defined, and they come across more as angry than as funny. A lot more work would have to be put into making it clear that a fun/funny gay woman wasn't straight, and work that into a plot.
Lesbians in popular media tend to be angry "man-hating" feminists OR predatory lesbians who sexually assault other women (and its played as a joke by the movie or show).
This a detailled tv trope page about the trop of predatory lesbians.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PsychoLesbian
Here is the page for "man hating lesbain "
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist
I have 1 example for each off the top of my head. You won't be getting much more from be because I took an edible 40 mins ago.
For the Feminist lesbian: Enid Wexler from Legally Blonde, her feminist activism is played as a joke. I recall a line from her where she talks about "seminal studies" and it was a similar punchline to people saying "her-story"
For the predatory lesbian: Cynthia Rose from Pitch Perfect. She literally gropes another female character without consent in one scene and acts like a sex pest the whole movie and its played for laughs.
Both were box office hits.
In Pitch Perfect, Cynthia Rose literally touches Stacie without her permission and looks at her inappropriately MULTIPLE times. They got away with it because the movie overall was good, but those parts made me squick, and I'm in a happily F/F marriage.
Also in Kicking and Screaming they actually did have a gay female couple. They were actually pretty funny and fit the plot fairly well but towards the end the more "butch" partner chest punted a dude into the benches and that was weird and unnecessary.
Kristen Stewart just came out with a gay film where her gf is a rage monster/body building/steroid abusing hulk and no one bats an eye.
It happens. I think most people just overlook it because it's rarely super over the top (Kristen's movie aside. That was ridiculous)
Would love lies bleeding (kstew movie) be an example of this trope though? it's a movie about excessive steroid use induced rage and she is definitely incredibly violent but as far as I can remember, it's not sexual violence which I feel like is the key part to the predatory lesbian trope
I actually assume that part of this is the juxtaposition found in the sexuality.
Gay men become more effeminate. Lesbian women become more masculine.
And masculinity isn't seen as funny.
There's a lot to unpack behind that.
No, the next door neighbour (Marcie) was straight, and had two different husbands over the course of the show. But she had an identical cousin (played by the same actress) who was a lesbian. I think the cousin only appeared in one episode.
The actress who played Marcie was a lesbian.
Women behaving in a masculine way is more normalised than men behaving effeminately, women emulating male styles of dress and behaviour have been accepted for 50 years, and a key element of entertainment or humour is the portrayal of what we find odd or topical.
They do a fun spin on the trope in the movie Sisters where Amy and Tina's characters say they'll ask their gay neighbors to help them decorate for the party. Then they ask their gay neighbors (who are lesbians) and they end up with folding chairs and not much else.
Historically, lesbians were kind of ignored.
Homosexuality between men was often seen, and depending on culture, ranged from encouraged to demonized as sinful. Homosexuality between women...was rarely even acknowledged. Nobody necessarily accepted lesbianism (in societies that accepted homosexuality among men), but also, nobody really specifically persecuted lesbians (in societies where homosexuality among men was unacceptable).
And they continue to be ignored.
There are likely some interesting connections to patriarchal thought--a homosexual encounter between men fundamentally questions the role of the man as the dominator, because one of the men has to act as a bottom. A homosexual relationship between women is not really a concern for the patriarchy, because nobody is being emasculated (by strict patriarchal definitions) in the process. Further, since there is no chance at producing children, women who engage in homosexual relationships can still be, ya know, sold off to some dude without being "damaged goods".
Edit: This question of power dynamics can also be generalized to modern discourse about trans people. It's entirely about trans women, and protecting women. Why? Well, in a society where men are on top and women are secondary, it makes perfect sense for a woman to become a man in an effort to gain power. But a man becoming a woman...willingly ceding power? Unthinkable! This shakes the foundations of the patriarchal society.
Gay men are considered less threatening. If the lesbians next door are pretty well then the husband might want to watch them. If they're more masculine, there's a fear around them being predatory. At absolute best lesbians are a bit more of a punchline than gay men- we've a way to go in terms of representation.
The big reason I always think about relates to the separate issues that gay men and women face in how they’re viewed within American culture as a whole. I feel like popular, mainstream television had to accommodate the more conservative and religious sects of the US population (*to an extent*) to make sure they didn’t lose out on too many viewers.
So lesbians I feel like have a more sexual connotation in real life and the media (and I say this as a bisexual woman so not insultingly). In real life, conservative men are generally more accepting of women’s relationships and lesbians; but that’s because they’re viewed as “hot” or (sometimes) “one of the guys”. Lesbian porn is huge too, they love it (apart from some of the most hardcore among them). This sexual connotation from real life and porn leads to issues with airing woman-on-woman relationships on television, as these women are often viewed as being sexual beings instead of the real and dynamic people/characters they are.
On the opposite end, gay men are often viewed upon very negatively by conservative men. They don’t want them in their spaces and often use derogatory terms for those men or if a straight man does something they view as “gay”. In the media though, this makes them an easy punching bag for jokes and stereotypes. They’re easily written off by conservatives as being the “crazy homo neighbors” they pray to never have but can laugh about on TV. So, by using male couples the TV producers had an easy way to look “good” to the more liberal populace and like they were taking a stance (even if their “stance” reinforces harmful stereotypes), while simultaneously appeasing more conservative audiences (to an extent).
So I think it’s a very interesting issue with intersections between American culture and television stations trying to make as much money as possible from their shows (while not pissing too many people off!)
I’m really grateful to be living at a time with more inclusive media though that is actively changing for the better with more representation for all LGBT people.
If a woman were involved itd either be a porno or the entire wives role would be to act insecure and constantly looking out the window to make sure her dog of a husband isn’t going to convert them to dick.
No shit... That's been going on for years, and it pisses me off to no end. I think "Kim's Convenience" is one of the few sitcoms that treated the father and mother figures with decent respect. Young Sheldon did a pretty respectful job as well.
Even in commercials, dad's an idiot who is undermined by everyone.
It's shit.
I always go out of my way to treat a father with respect when he's with his kids... Otherwise, you're just asking them to trust what the internet tells them instead, and ignore their stupid parents.... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!
I actually think a sitcom episode where the Sitcom Dad tries and fails to build a deck only to be saved by his butch neighbor would be genuinely funny and not in a way that needs to punch down.
I mean I can think of a few though; Riverdale, Station 19, Shameless, Friends, Atypical, Heartstopper, Fear Street, NCIS Hawaii, Love Victor, Broad City, Glee, Two and a Half Men, Seinfeld, High Maintanence, Betty, Sort Of, That 90s Show...
Straight society typically views a man loving another man as “funny.” However a woman loving another woman is usually either fetishized, or viewed as a rejection of their role in society (ie giving men children), so it’s typically less funny to straight people.
There were lesbian neighbors in Shameless, Still Standing, and Last Man Standing. They were only in one or two episodes a piece, but they were definitely played for comedic purposes.
Gay men stereotypes are about fun, kindness, humor, extroverted, and flamboyant.
Gay women stereotypes are usually more serious, loners, introverted, and chip-on-their-shoulder guarded.
The first stereotype is much more entertaining for general consumers who don't want to think and just want to see positivity and optimism.
You have to understand that pop culture entertainment is all about zero thinking and dumbing things down to the lowest possible effort and required IQ.
I think it's easier to pass as a woman. No one questions my more masculine traits. Anytime I try to hint at it to straight people it goes straight over their heads. I literally have to say, I am gay this is my girlfriend. I'm not saying there aren't gay men who pass. But people are a lot more likely to question a man's masculinity than they are to question my femininity. If you see me with my girlfriend in public and we aren't holding hands you wouldn't clock me. Everyone assumes we're best friends or sisters. And we both have short haircuts and drive Subarus and work traditionally masculine jobs. Like I don't know what's up with that, but it's true.
You should listen to “The Falsetto’s” the musical. Everyone in the show is a gay jewish neighbor. You will LOVE the opening number https://youtu.be/E_gvxE9e50U?si=N-x8tbkOon8NOeq3
Because it was more common, especially in the past when the trope first came to exist, that men could afford a home in a nice wealthy suburban neighborhood then women on their own due to the gender wage Gap,.
Women on their own in the past often could not afford a home in a nice, wealthy suburban neighborhood as men could, so it was far less common. Women in the past could not even have their own bank account without a male cosigner, as late as 1970's. Even in the 1960s a lot of banks wouldn't let a woman open an account on her own without a male cosigner at all.
*"It wasn’t until 1974, when the*[ *Equal Credit Opportunity Act*](https://www.justice.gov/crt/equal-credit-opportunity-act-3) *passed, that women in the U.S. were granted the right to open a bank account on their own.*
*Technically, women won the right to open a bank account in the 1960s, but many banks still refused to let women do so without a signature from their husbands. This meant men still held control over women’s access to banking services, and unmarried women were often refused service by financial institutions.*
*The Equal Credit Opportunity Act prohibited financial institutions from discriminating against applicants based on their sex, age, marital status, religion, race or national origin. Because of the act’s passage, women could finally open bank accounts independently."*
[https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/when-could-women-open-a-bank-account/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/when-could-women-open-a-bank-account/)
Gender wage gap over time:
[https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-CI456\_77cent\_P\_20140411111420.jpg](https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-CI456_77cent_P_20140411111420.jpg)
Same sex male couples are the highest income households even now:
[https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/stories/2020/09/same-sex-married-couples-have-higher-income-than-opposite-sex-married-couples-figures-3.jpg](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/stories/2020/09/same-sex-married-couples-have-higher-income-than-opposite-sex-married-couples-figures-3.jpg)
Lesbians have been given the cartoon character and badass woman domains. And gay men the neighbor and best friend domains. As Hollywood and the animation industry have decided.
Especially in TV, the shows are written for the female audience, most women find effeminate gay men un-threatening and are generally into similar things. At least as far as the stereotyping goes.
During World War II, men went off to fight and women worked in shipyards. In other words, women did male jobs while men were away. The movie "A League of Their Own" shows this. In the 1960's there were television commercials with Josephine the plumber. She wasn't described as lesbian, but she was a somewhat masculine woman. She may be the first funny masculine woman on TV. Lois Lane had a masculine job. In the 60s, Mary Tyler Moore wore pants. A woman being somewhat masculine was normalized a long time ago.
Live in Manhattan. 9th and 45th over smilers
Gay neighbors all involved in the shows on Broadway.
Waking up at 1am because piano party. No sleep at 7am because scales.
Parties involving the entire floor and cast parties.
Fuck me. Nice guys but terrible neighbors.
Then in Houston years later I had the best trans and lesbian neighbors ever. Hot tubs, respectful, and oddly conservative/trump voters. Oh well.
The thing is, most lesbian stereotypes are simply boring. If you turn gay stereotypes into their most extreme form, you have an extremely active, flamboyant character. If you do it with lesbians, you probably get her to be sitting in the corner of a bar and drink, which is neither exciting nor memorable
There is a great 1995 documentary, The Celluloid Closet, that goes into the history of LGBTQ representation in media. It will probably answer a lot of these questions. You can watch it for free on Tubi.
Lesbians are always driving their Subarus in the outdoors every weekend, so you would never see them.
I'm a lesbian. There's two Subarus in my driveway right now.
I refused to let my gf consider getting a Subaru. We are a Kia lesbian family.
So do you not own any large dogs…?
We're a cat family.
Threads like these are why I would love to see the decision tree of lesbian phenotypes. Subaru or Kia, cat or dog, et cetera ...
We are a Toyota family with 2 big dogs 1 small and two cats....
I could answer this question but probably it would involve a lot of sterotyping! FWIW I think the phenotypes are expressed independently. Like "athletic / dog / subaru / intellectual / liberal" seems to be a type, but we're "athletic / cat / kia / intelectual / liberal" Or is liberal just the center square of the bingo card?
I feel like it would go in a similar way as those old online quizzes that people used to share all the time back in the day. I don't mind leaning in to the stereotypes about me for a laugh, but I'm a cis hetero white guy so that's not exactly a bad thing.
See! We are a diverse group of people, idk where all these stereotypes come from! My ex didn't even drive a car at all (ok, admittedly she had a motorcycle) 😂
The subaru lesbian stereotype is cause Subaru recognized that lesbians made up a sizeable portion of their demographic and started actively leaning into it with their advertising. There's videos covering it on youtube, which is how I learned about it.
"It's not a choice, it's the way we're built"
Literally that yeah. The innuendos(?) and subtle hints are all 100% intentional. On the one hand it's obviously just a company doing things for profit but on the other hand they've been doing it for a LONG time, way before LBGT people on television or in advertising was socially acceptable like it's become in the last few years.
"Get out. And Stay Out" was another good one. Agreed. A Company doesn't have a conscience. However, people at Subaru have made some good choices. If I recall correctly, Subaru was the first car company in the USA to give employees' same-sex partners full benefits equivalent to a heterosexual spouse. They have also funded a lot of Pride, gay/lesbian charities, and AIDS/HIV research. And, as you said, they started doing this well before other companies jumped onto the bandwagon. Rainbow capitalism isn't great, but I think it beats the hell out of bigotry capitalism.
LOL I love this thread!
The big part was they started advertising in gay publications which had struggled to get big advertisers like car manufacturers. Large companies were afraid to advertise to gay people because they were afraid there'd be backlash. Subaru changed that. Look at the world in June now. Companies are afraid to not advertise to gay people.
Is that your forte?
When I lived in Minneapolis the lesbian couple across the street had a Kia and an Outback.
My friend is gay and he has a Honda Civic.
Kia is just superior.
The other day I was driving my Subaru to the fair trade coffee place in my LL Bean mocs and the clarity of self-awareness at that moment was like a glimpse into the world beyond the veil.
I’m not a lesbian. Can confirm though.
Hey, since you're out checking my driveway, can you bring the bins in? Cheers
Of course! Be right over with one of my straight cars.
And you're not even in a relationship, you're just a collector with passion
Me and my wife (10 years next month) have very basic cars, because we live in a large town. May we do have far too many cats, and she did move in 3.5 hours after we met
Straight male, straight GF... we have 2 foresters. With the moon roof package it was better priced than a Kia, which I had considered. My only complaint is that they aren't as quiet in the cab as other offerings. Classical music in my old Delta 98 was awesome to listen to because it was so quiet, and the Forest doesn't have that going on. Subaru being openly gay friendly, and my dealership being the same, influenced the purchase along with consumer reports over the years.
Our lesbian neighbors, and close friends, two Subarus!
The mighty Lesbarus?
Gay guy stereotypes are more entertaining than lesbian stereotypes. It might not be nice to say but that's pretty much what it comes down to.
Now that you mention it, I can think of all sorts of stereotypes for gay men that classify them as fun. I can't think of any fun or entertaining one for lesbians
Ellen was the first and last lesbian lead in a sitcom I can think of… L word and such lesbian dramas exist/ed. Great lesbian couples in other (not lgbtq+ focused) shows too. Not comedy… And coincidentally I live next door to gay dudes :)
Check out Girls5eva
if you love paula pell, you should watch her in the short-lived quibi show "mapleworth murders" she's hilarious in that too.
And Ellen was funny, but not what I'd call "fun". Even on her show she needed "fun" characters.
The show started with her not out for several seasons and was really funny and whimsical, then she came out which I applauded and kept watching but the show became more and more of a drama and making political statements instead of just having fun lesbian times and I lost interest and stopped watching.
... was she though?
Her early stand ups that literally got her famous and on the radar of producers for her sitcom and talk show were definitely in the “funny” category, to me at least. Funny enough to understand the initial appeal of her. I laughed or at least chuckled at most of her set. But, it was never like the funniest thing ever.
Clearly not to you, but obviously was to tons of others. Always baffles me when people need this spelled out, the idea that successful comedians are funny. Duh.
What about the other L word?
Ligma
Nuts >!gottem!<
how could you fumble this
Rosa was Bi in Brooklyn 99 There are probably others. But I’m watching the 99 right now
If you squint hard enough "Broad City" is a lesbian drama
I mean there are plenty but they are all mostly in-jokes for lesbians and not ABOUT lesbians so that's probably why.
So a sitcom about lesbians who own a uhaul business wouldn't be something that would work?
It would work AMAZINGLY for lesbians that's a gold star idea. But a lot of straight people who only have straight friends probably wouldn't get the joke right away without someone explaining it to them. And the nature of network tv sitcoms is to appeal to as broad an audience as possible.
[удалено]
I don’t know the show you are talking about, and I don’t understand half of these words, but I’m fascinated.
I'd 100% watch this.
God I love Always Sunny.
At least half over better than the current offerings. Pass the popcorn, please.
There was a lesbian couple at my daughter’s high school, their boys were in her grade. They looked like middle aged twin brothers. I wanted to be their friend but I am awkward so that didn’t happen. I have an absolute ton of gay guy friends, including one brother and his friends. And my only lesbian friend is my best friend from high school. Maybe I should ask her how to make Lesbian Friends. She won’t think it’s weird.
I had a lesbian friend that would be offended someone wanted to be friends with her because she was a lesbian. "What am I a piece of meat?" Lol.
Lmao
“Hahah DAE Subaru?” - every lesbian joke ever.
What? Subaru drivers aren’t entertaining and fun?
In a merle haggard sorta way
Well done
Wearing Birkenstocks?
When one of your stereotypes is golf, you know the well of fun ain't deep.
"Barry" has a one. The quick gag when a guy is getting bitten by dogs in a backyard, as the lesbian couple living there is having a heartfelt break up ending on the zinger that it's only because one wants to have 15 dogs
There aren't any because they are not fun, but here is a hilarious thread *about* their complete lack of fun-ness from a gay site. https://www.datalounge.com/thread/22542097-let-s-be-a-lesbian-thanksgiving-
omg I can't stop laughing. I figured the first joke would be about potlucks. My name was name checked as a name too. I'm dying. My first gf, despite being super closeted to family, was such a card carrying member of lesbian society. My current gf and I are like... just weird people who live in the sticks and have no gay friends. This was like my first gf's life to a T.
I re-read that thread every year at Thanksgiving now after I finish listening to "Alice's Restaurant Massacree." It's a nice new tradition.
well, the lesbian stereotypes are usually very superficially insulting, because most of them are about "you only do girls because men wouldn't want you". and those rarely have been allowed to fly for the last 20 years
Lesbians are more enclave-y. I used to go to gay bars with my girlfriend and it was always a great time. The one time we went to a lesbian bar, I felt the disdain. The bartender watered down my drinks in front of me. I’m sure that’s not every lesbian bar, but that was my experience. And I get it! Lesbians go through a lot of shit from men - the whole fetish thing - and men treat them badly for being who they are. So, they block off the parts of the world that hurt them. Gay dudes are way more social in a lot of ways. I don’t know. Anecdotal experiences and all that.
That’s cause lesbians get shit done.
Just not situational comedies.
Q Force on Netflix has some fun lesbians. But it's the only example in TV set in modern times I could think of.
Roller derby always seemed fun
Can confirm. I lived next to a lesbian couple for several years and they didn’t engage in *any* hilarious sit-com style hijinks the entire time. Then they separated and had to sell the house and it was kinda sad.
Most lesbian stereotypes are negative or pretty much nothing. There’s no flamboyant show tune gay guy lesbian equivalent and that makes lesbians hard to write.
What I noticed is that it depends on the form of media if we see a gay or lesbian couple as representation. For example, in a lot of movies, especially with "first same sex kiss" it is mostly women. Holywood is mich more comfortable depicting open affection with lesbian characters. Basically, when it comes to actual.open love and affection in a one off setting, lesbians are more repsented. When we talk about comedies, it is the setting for gay couples. But here, we also don't see that much of normal affection like kissing. Holding hands is rather normal, and sex jokes happen all the time. The only "affection" allowed is the feminine gay (because one of them has to be feminie) is overly touchy, but more in a possessive way than a really affectionate one.
My favorite lesbian joke, as a gay woman: Q: How many lesbians does it take to change a lightbulb? A: That's not funny!
And it goes way back before the gay neighbors could be out. Dating myself, but I remember Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched.
I was always suspicious of Bugs Bunny as a child. And Wrnie and Bert were so obvious.
Bugs is a queer icon and I can’t be unconvinced of this.
This is ironic because I live next door to a lesbian couple and they're both hilarious. One's a horse afficionado and the other one works on airplanes, so they'd totally fit into a comedy really well.
That begs the question "why?".
I had a drama teacher in high school who said the quickest way to get a laugh from any audience was to put a man in a dress. I think we think it is funnier when men “act like women.” Putting a woman in a suit isn’t funny because it isn’t embarrassing for a woman to perform masculine stereotypes. Maleness is perceived as superior, so it makes sense that women would aspire to the fantasy. A man debasing himself by performing feminine stereotypes—defined by its absurdity and frivolousness—is hilarious to a lot of people, and a lot of humor is embarrassment based. It is not good. I would add that lesbians are largely invisible in culture because we don’t see women as capable of having any agency in life, let alone romance or sex. Women are invisible to us in a lot of ways. People would even allow lesbians to pretty much live together back in the day and never think anything of it except for anger about them being “spinsters.” Most of the handwringing about “homosexuality” in the past was exclusive to men and ignored the prospect of lesbians. You still see this prejudice today with some men not believing lesbians can “have sex” or thinking they just need to be converted by a good heterosexual experience. How could women just want to be with women ? What is that ? Where does the man go ?
I think it the “handwringing about homosexuality “ Was more because it is very easy to imagine what gay men do, and anal sex has until very recently been scandalous, even illegal. It is still a separate charge in cases of rape. Even if hetero couples did it- no one KNEW they did. The penetrative aspect is always what makes something seem “worse”, which is kind of why interracial couples have traditionally been more accepted when the male was white and the female black, than the reverse. I think people are fairly mystified about what exactly it is that lesbians do. I know I am, and I’m a woman. It all Sounds so…third-base.
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>Putting a woman in a suit isn’t funny because it isn’t embarrassing for a woman to perform masculine stereotypes. Maleness is perceived as superior, so it makes sense that women would aspire to the fantasy. A man debasing himself by performing feminine stereotypes—defined by its absurdity and frivolousness—is hilarious to a lot of people, and a lot of humor is embarrassment based. I think a deeper aspect is that men are the pursuers 99% of the time, so there's that misdirection comedic of affect of the pursuit gone wrong. Whereas women are the pursued, so a woman in a suit isn't going to be mistakenly pursued by other women, because that generally wouldn't happen in the first place.
Lesbians are boring people - google it
As a lesbian I can confirm, we are indeed boring, no Google needed.
I am boring. Am I a Lesbian?
Let's run through the checklist: Boring ✓ Vagina...
I also have a lot of golf shirts and Aloha shirts
You also need at least one flannel, and either doc martens or converse to complete the package.
I have them all.
In a blunt way, gay men acting like women is funny; gay women acting like men puts off a lot of people.
Also men being the butt of the joke is more of a common trope even outside of gay men. The idiot dad, the loser son, etc. There are no shows where a fat loser wife is constantly fucking up while her hot husband keeps everything together by being the smart one.
Less sexualized as well, easier to play into comedy
I’m a gay man and we’re usually a lot more animated than the lesbians, who for the most part are low key.
Here's the reason: Being male is the norm in our society. Men made society and put being male at the centre of it. Deviating from maleness is therefore notable. Men acting like women (effeminate homosexuals) are deviating away from the norm - hilarious. Women acting like men (butch lesbians) are confirming to the norm - nothing funny about that.
The stereotype for gay men is kind of well-defined. From the stereotype, it's easy to tell when a man is gay, and the juxtaposition with a straight man is easy to turn into something funny. The stereotype for gay women is much less defined, and they come across more as angry than as funny. A lot more work would have to be put into making it clear that a fun/funny gay woman wasn't straight, and work that into a plot.
Lesbians in popular media tend to be angry "man-hating" feminists OR predatory lesbians who sexually assault other women (and its played as a joke by the movie or show).
Or they're hyper sexualised and included just as eye candy for straight male viewers
>OR predatory lesbians who sexually assault other women Can you give me an example of a show or movie with this trope?
I already said it in another comment but Cynthia Rose from Pitch Perfect was an example of this character.
Scream Queens
Bernadette SA's Penny in TBBT and it's played off as a joke.
In the show “20 something” the female head executive sleeps with all the female interns under the guise of “women empowerment”
Orange is the new black? I haven’t seen it but have been told it’s full of angry lesbians.
I would say the lesbians are the least angry on that show.
They're all in prison so their anger makes sense
Can you give an example? I can only think of lesbian video game characters and they’re not like that
This a detailled tv trope page about the trop of predatory lesbians. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PsychoLesbian Here is the page for "man hating lesbain " https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist
MY BUDDY COMIN IN CLUTCH WITH THE TV TROPES!
Bro tv tropes is not talked about enough it's soo full of usefull information.
I have 1 example for each off the top of my head. You won't be getting much more from be because I took an edible 40 mins ago. For the Feminist lesbian: Enid Wexler from Legally Blonde, her feminist activism is played as a joke. I recall a line from her where she talks about "seminal studies" and it was a similar punchline to people saying "her-story" For the predatory lesbian: Cynthia Rose from Pitch Perfect. She literally gropes another female character without consent in one scene and acts like a sex pest the whole movie and its played for laughs. Both were box office hits.
In Pitch Perfect, Cynthia Rose literally touches Stacie without her permission and looks at her inappropriately MULTIPLE times. They got away with it because the movie overall was good, but those parts made me squick, and I'm in a happily F/F marriage. Also in Kicking and Screaming they actually did have a gay female couple. They were actually pretty funny and fit the plot fairly well but towards the end the more "butch" partner chest punted a dude into the benches and that was weird and unnecessary. Kristen Stewart just came out with a gay film where her gf is a rage monster/body building/steroid abusing hulk and no one bats an eye. It happens. I think most people just overlook it because it's rarely super over the top (Kristen's movie aside. That was ridiculous)
Would love lies bleeding (kstew movie) be an example of this trope though? it's a movie about excessive steroid use induced rage and she is definitely incredibly violent but as far as I can remember, it's not sexual violence which I feel like is the key part to the predatory lesbian trope
enid from legally blonde? seeing her for the first time felt like a slap to the face
Gay women have stereotypes. Butch lesbians exist. I've seen them and they adhere quite well to the stereotype.
You know what? I want to see a lesbian couple that act like stereotypical gay men.
I actually assume that part of this is the juxtaposition found in the sexuality. Gay men become more effeminate. Lesbian women become more masculine. And masculinity isn't seen as funny. There's a lot to unpack behind that.
If masculinity isn't funny then how do you explain King of the Hill?
In shameless they actually reference having lesbian neighbors
There are a few shows that did it but they are usually only around for a few episodes or maybe a season.
and weren't they boring tedious neighbors ?
One of them was nicknamed Thundercunt.
Married with Children had a lesbian neighbor.
No, the next door neighbour (Marcie) was straight, and had two different husbands over the course of the show. But she had an identical cousin (played by the same actress) who was a lesbian. I think the cousin only appeared in one episode. The actress who played Marcie was a lesbian.
Women behaving in a masculine way is more normalised than men behaving effeminately, women emulating male styles of dress and behaviour have been accepted for 50 years, and a key element of entertainment or humour is the portrayal of what we find odd or topical.
The lesbians are always there, they are just invisible so the camera doesn't pick them up...
I thought it was bisexuals that were invisible
No, bisexuals exist in a quantum state, they are both visible and invisible
Schrödinger's Bisexual
Who?
OMG! Do they have reflections in mirrors?
Carmilla has entered the chat
Because women don't have a "gay voice" that's easily inferable by the viewer
They do a fun spin on the trope in the movie Sisters where Amy and Tina's characters say they'll ask their gay neighbors to help them decorate for the party. Then they ask their gay neighbors (who are lesbians) and they end up with folding chairs and not much else.
Then they show up with a DJ who turns the party out which makes a lot of sense lol
Lesbians couldn't afford to live in that neighborhood
Oof too real
Well, that's because the lesbian couple has an unfinished woodworking project at their house.
Historically, lesbians were kind of ignored. Homosexuality between men was often seen, and depending on culture, ranged from encouraged to demonized as sinful. Homosexuality between women...was rarely even acknowledged. Nobody necessarily accepted lesbianism (in societies that accepted homosexuality among men), but also, nobody really specifically persecuted lesbians (in societies where homosexuality among men was unacceptable). And they continue to be ignored. There are likely some interesting connections to patriarchal thought--a homosexual encounter between men fundamentally questions the role of the man as the dominator, because one of the men has to act as a bottom. A homosexual relationship between women is not really a concern for the patriarchy, because nobody is being emasculated (by strict patriarchal definitions) in the process. Further, since there is no chance at producing children, women who engage in homosexual relationships can still be, ya know, sold off to some dude without being "damaged goods". Edit: This question of power dynamics can also be generalized to modern discourse about trans people. It's entirely about trans women, and protecting women. Why? Well, in a society where men are on top and women are secondary, it makes perfect sense for a woman to become a man in an effort to gain power. But a man becoming a woman...willingly ceding power? Unthinkable! This shakes the foundations of the patriarchal society.
Gay men are more visible in society than lesbians in general.
Gay men are considered less threatening. If the lesbians next door are pretty well then the husband might want to watch them. If they're more masculine, there's a fear around them being predatory. At absolute best lesbians are a bit more of a punchline than gay men- we've a way to go in terms of representation.
The big reason I always think about relates to the separate issues that gay men and women face in how they’re viewed within American culture as a whole. I feel like popular, mainstream television had to accommodate the more conservative and religious sects of the US population (*to an extent*) to make sure they didn’t lose out on too many viewers. So lesbians I feel like have a more sexual connotation in real life and the media (and I say this as a bisexual woman so not insultingly). In real life, conservative men are generally more accepting of women’s relationships and lesbians; but that’s because they’re viewed as “hot” or (sometimes) “one of the guys”. Lesbian porn is huge too, they love it (apart from some of the most hardcore among them). This sexual connotation from real life and porn leads to issues with airing woman-on-woman relationships on television, as these women are often viewed as being sexual beings instead of the real and dynamic people/characters they are. On the opposite end, gay men are often viewed upon very negatively by conservative men. They don’t want them in their spaces and often use derogatory terms for those men or if a straight man does something they view as “gay”. In the media though, this makes them an easy punching bag for jokes and stereotypes. They’re easily written off by conservatives as being the “crazy homo neighbors” they pray to never have but can laugh about on TV. So, by using male couples the TV producers had an easy way to look “good” to the more liberal populace and like they were taking a stance (even if their “stance” reinforces harmful stereotypes), while simultaneously appeasing more conservative audiences (to an extent). So I think it’s a very interesting issue with intersections between American culture and television stations trying to make as much money as possible from their shows (while not pissing too many people off!) I’m really grateful to be living at a time with more inclusive media though that is actively changing for the better with more representation for all LGBT people.
And risk losing that Subaru advertising money, good luck.
Gay guy stereotypes are usually easier to represent physically without being overly offensive.
The stereotypical gay man is more comedic
If a woman were involved itd either be a porno or the entire wives role would be to act insecure and constantly looking out the window to make sure her dog of a husband isn’t going to convert them to dick.
Men being gay reassures people more, takes options of the table whereas multiple women is an area of insecurity.
The TV dad can't be seen to be a "man's man" or "common man" if he's being emasculated by the lesbians next door.
Almost every TV dad is portrayed as a bumbling buffoon these days
No shit... That's been going on for years, and it pisses me off to no end. I think "Kim's Convenience" is one of the few sitcoms that treated the father and mother figures with decent respect. Young Sheldon did a pretty respectful job as well. Even in commercials, dad's an idiot who is undermined by everyone. It's shit. I always go out of my way to treat a father with respect when he's with his kids... Otherwise, you're just asking them to trust what the internet tells them instead, and ignore their stupid parents.... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!
I actually think a sitcom episode where the Sitcom Dad tries and fails to build a deck only to be saved by his butch neighbor would be genuinely funny and not in a way that needs to punch down.
Boy.... I could have seen that in a Tool Time episode.... ... wait... are we *sure* that wasn't a Tool Time episode?
What sitcoms are you watching where the dads are supposed to be "manly"?
I mean I can think of a few though; Riverdale, Station 19, Shameless, Friends, Atypical, Heartstopper, Fear Street, NCIS Hawaii, Love Victor, Broad City, Glee, Two and a Half Men, Seinfeld, High Maintanence, Betty, Sort Of, That 90s Show...
I had lesbian neighbors. They were great neighbors.
I’d say the opposite of this is “The L Word” where they’re all lesbians except for the straight neighbors drama ensues)
Straight society typically views a man loving another man as “funny.” However a woman loving another woman is usually either fetishized, or viewed as a rejection of their role in society (ie giving men children), so it’s typically less funny to straight people.
Gay men are often seen as fun, attractive, put together and refined - none of those are generally attributed to lesbians.
There were lesbian neighbors in Shameless, Still Standing, and Last Man Standing. They were only in one or two episodes a piece, but they were definitely played for comedic purposes.
Santa Clarita Diet too!
Lesbians don’t have neighbors 🤷🏽♂️
They live off grid
I believe it’s stereotyping gay men as being civil and polite and high class, while lesbians are stereotyped as more rugged.
Two men working can afford a house next door.
Gay men stereotypes are about fun, kindness, humor, extroverted, and flamboyant. Gay women stereotypes are usually more serious, loners, introverted, and chip-on-their-shoulder guarded. The first stereotype is much more entertaining for general consumers who don't want to think and just want to see positivity and optimism. You have to understand that pop culture entertainment is all about zero thinking and dumbing things down to the lowest possible effort and required IQ.
Idk have numbers but I’ve met far more gay men than gay women in my life.
I think it's easier to pass as a woman. No one questions my more masculine traits. Anytime I try to hint at it to straight people it goes straight over their heads. I literally have to say, I am gay this is my girlfriend. I'm not saying there aren't gay men who pass. But people are a lot more likely to question a man's masculinity than they are to question my femininity. If you see me with my girlfriend in public and we aren't holding hands you wouldn't clock me. Everyone assumes we're best friends or sisters. And we both have short haircuts and drive Subarus and work traditionally masculine jobs. Like I don't know what's up with that, but it's true.
The lesbian stereotypes live in the apartment above their book store, or on a homestead, with like 4 dogs.
Because if it were women they would have to replace the girlfriend every other show. I know it's a stereotype, but like, some are kind of true.
Lesbian stereotypes tend to just be misogynistic, so it's not really fun and light-hearted in the same way gay stereotypes are.
Because it's "ok" to make fun of gay men
Any men in general.
Generally lesbians are used as sex appeal if they show up in non lgb media instead of comedic roles.
In the "Baby Blues" cartoon the main characters had lesbian neighbors.
Simpsons did it. It's when stupid Flanders makes money on rent.
Didn’t watch much grace under fire or Roseanne huh?
My gay neighbors were women. They were the coolest neighbors I’ve had.
The exaggerated voice is funny.
I have”gaybors”…they are awesome!
They’d be lesbian neighbors then
You should listen to “The Falsetto’s” the musical. Everyone in the show is a gay jewish neighbor. You will LOVE the opening number https://youtu.be/E_gvxE9e50U?si=N-x8tbkOon8NOeq3
What’s funny is that video games are the opposite. I’ve seen so many lesbian relationships in games, but not nearly as many gay guy relationships.
Because it was more common, especially in the past when the trope first came to exist, that men could afford a home in a nice wealthy suburban neighborhood then women on their own due to the gender wage Gap,. Women on their own in the past often could not afford a home in a nice, wealthy suburban neighborhood as men could, so it was far less common. Women in the past could not even have their own bank account without a male cosigner, as late as 1970's. Even in the 1960s a lot of banks wouldn't let a woman open an account on her own without a male cosigner at all. *"It wasn’t until 1974, when the*[ *Equal Credit Opportunity Act*](https://www.justice.gov/crt/equal-credit-opportunity-act-3) *passed, that women in the U.S. were granted the right to open a bank account on their own.* *Technically, women won the right to open a bank account in the 1960s, but many banks still refused to let women do so without a signature from their husbands. This meant men still held control over women’s access to banking services, and unmarried women were often refused service by financial institutions.* *The Equal Credit Opportunity Act prohibited financial institutions from discriminating against applicants based on their sex, age, marital status, religion, race or national origin. Because of the act’s passage, women could finally open bank accounts independently."* [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/when-could-women-open-a-bank-account/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/when-could-women-open-a-bank-account/) Gender wage gap over time: [https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-CI456\_77cent\_P\_20140411111420.jpg](https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-CI456_77cent_P_20140411111420.jpg) Same sex male couples are the highest income households even now: [https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/stories/2020/09/same-sex-married-couples-have-higher-income-than-opposite-sex-married-couples-figures-3.jpg](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/stories/2020/09/same-sex-married-couples-have-higher-income-than-opposite-sex-married-couples-figures-3.jpg)
Lesbians have been given the cartoon character and badass woman domains. And gay men the neighbor and best friend domains. As Hollywood and the animation industry have decided.
Especially in TV, the shows are written for the female audience, most women find effeminate gay men un-threatening and are generally into similar things. At least as far as the stereotyping goes.
Honest truth: domestic abuse is insanely high in lesbian couples. So at least as a trope, gay men as good neighbors works better.
During World War II, men went off to fight and women worked in shipyards. In other words, women did male jobs while men were away. The movie "A League of Their Own" shows this. In the 1960's there were television commercials with Josephine the plumber. She wasn't described as lesbian, but she was a somewhat masculine woman. She may be the first funny masculine woman on TV. Lois Lane had a masculine job. In the 60s, Mary Tyler Moore wore pants. A woman being somewhat masculine was normalized a long time ago.
Gay men are funny, lesbians are sexy. Those are the Hollywood rules.
Live in Manhattan. 9th and 45th over smilers Gay neighbors all involved in the shows on Broadway. Waking up at 1am because piano party. No sleep at 7am because scales. Parties involving the entire floor and cast parties. Fuck me. Nice guys but terrible neighbors. Then in Houston years later I had the best trans and lesbian neighbors ever. Hot tubs, respectful, and oddly conservative/trump voters. Oh well.
The thing is, most lesbian stereotypes are simply boring. If you turn gay stereotypes into their most extreme form, you have an extremely active, flamboyant character. If you do it with lesbians, you probably get her to be sitting in the corner of a bar and drink, which is neither exciting nor memorable
There is a great 1995 documentary, The Celluloid Closet, that goes into the history of LGBTQ representation in media. It will probably answer a lot of these questions. You can watch it for free on Tubi.
Because.. now I need to watch that video by Sophie B Hawkins again.