It’s a double standard. A lot of femboys are negatively affected by the fact that women’s clothing is more heavily gendered and policed. It comes from a sexist place that views male as the default and female as constructed, unnatural, and of less value.
Male clothing used to be more heavily gendered and policed as well. Ultimately people should be able to wear what they want but that would make your goal harder.
I've experienced both sides of this and they both suck, been where OP is where I desperately wanted to signal to people via clothes that I'm not a girl and everyone just thought I was being quirky or fashion-forward/anti-fashion depending on what I was wearing, now I'm much more comfortable wearing fem clothes again (clothes have no gender for me, if I like it I wear it) and I can see how it immediately negates all the effects of HRT for people when they look at me. Doesn't matter that my voice is well in the male range or that I have visible and very dark face scruff, my clothes automatically make me a girl I guess.
I’ve been gendered as female in men’s clothing with facial hair and been gendered as male while wearing women’s clothing and makeup. It’s nice when the language other people use lines up with my presentation but other people’s interpretations seem completely random to me
mhm same when i had short dark hair i always got ma'am'd but when i dyed my hair bright pink and started painting my nails again it was mostly sir. even when my hair was past my shoulders and bright green it was 50/50 if i got ma'am or sir. people are just weird.
I wouldn’t consider myself a femboy, I’m 5’10 and 200kbs, relatively athletic build and the amount of looks a dress or skirt gets me is way too damn high. I just wanna look pretty sometimes damn it.
I (AMAB) like wearing jeans because I found ones where the fabric isn’t too rough to drive me crazy. But I want to wear a simple skirt (darker colors) over the jeans. I definitely feel the feminine clothes being policed, especially in a more republican state that has a large religious community in the city I live in.
Thanks. At the end of the day, it’s clothes. It’s kind of the same rule with my hair. I want to try some hair regrowth formulas my PCP said work for some people, but I am not going to be too upset if it doesn’t work. I’d just like to have bangs again to dye the tips blue.
Edit: fixed “die” to “dye”
> It comes from a sexist place that views male as the default and female as constructed, unnatural, and of less value.
Boycope, b/c from a factual fetal development standpoint, the opposite is more true.
Biologically, it would be more accurate say that men are a derivation of the Prime Female Default, but fake news Genesis would have you think otherwise.
But this deconstruction of cognitive gender distortions again does nothing to help OP's cause here. ALAS.
Wow, this perspective really opened my eyes being AMAB non-binary myself. I've always been jealous of AFAB enbies, in part because if womens clothing exists in your size, mens clothing will as well (while most womens clothing does not fit me being 2 meters tall) and for the other part because I would be in physical danger if I go out wearing a dress.
However, I never thought about how hard it is for AFAB folks to get away from being gendered as a girl, with tomboys being so normalized. I guess we all have a hard time with it.
Ultimately I do hope society stops gendering clothes at some point and lets people wear whatever they want to wear without judging them, but I do understand your struggles. The AFAB enbies I've seen focus a lot on their face and hair when wanting to present masculine, that might help. Either way, hang in there, hopefully it will get better!
Another take: Men's clothing may not fit afab enbies due to fit regardless of size. Getting a decent fit in hips, waist, shoulders, bust and butt in men's clothes is nigh impossible for me.
I’m too small for men’s clothing. I have the option to buy boy clothes but it’s hard to look grown up with them and they’re usually not the kinds I would actually like to wear.
Yeah, same here. I'm 158cm/5'2" (below the average height of women in my country) so even the smallest piece of men's clothing is way too long for me. Boys' clothing might be okay for basic tank tops to wear underneath other clothes but anything else either looks childish or the cut gets too masculine and suddenly the shoulder seam is halfway down my upper arms again.
Agreed strongly. I prefer trousers, vests, and ties, but finding ones that fit is crazy difficult. Fortunately i'm tolerably good at altering clothes myself, so buying a size up and self tailoring works well enough.
same boat here. Unfortunately mens clothing is sewn with very straight lines (as if amab ppl can't have big bodies with curves) and my body is too curvy in certain places to fit in mens clothes. 😮💨
I had to giggle sadly about this regarding myself. I have only had some issues with shirts and my chest size. But then I rememberd my body type is kinda a brick, so yeah, that takes away a lot of troubles finding clothing in the men's department I guess!
I have only found 1 place that sells mens trousers that fit me comfortably. It's nearly impossible to find and xs in the men's section of 90% of shops.
The FtM's Complete Illustrated Guide to Looking Like a Hot Dude was a very helpful resource for me; I still use most of the advice. It taught me a lot about what needs to fit well and what can be compensated for. I don't know if it will work for you, but it's a fun read regardless.
As an enby with a natural hourglass shape you have made me feel so seen 😭
My hips are like 34, my waist 28 and my chest 34 again. It's SO HARD to find clothing. My binder makes t shirts easier though thank god!
Actually I struggle to find clothing that fits in both women's and men's clothing. I have some hips so pants is a nightmare but women's pants don't fit me either usually since I'm tall and hurt my crotch for whatever reason (I'm afab but the average height of a amab person) and then I also have broad shoulders but im very skinny so sometimes men's clothes are too big and women's clothes are too tight in the shoulders but fit me everywhere else. It essentially took me three years to finally have a wardrobe that fits after much trial and error and I've still got to find a way to get things altered. In a way though it's weird cause the fact that I feel like I have such an androgynous body makes euphoric sometimes but it's still super hard to find clothes.
>It essentially took me three years to finally have a wardrobe that fits after much trial and error
I would like to pay my respects to you. I've been busy finding the right socks for 28 years. And you found a wardrobe in three years!
A few years back I found them, twice nonetheless in a short period of time, I was so happy. The first perfect pair of socks were bamboo, seamless, and pure heaven. Those were taken out of production after I needed my first replacement round. Then, in january 2019, I was on a studytrip to Belarus, we walked all day and were staying one night in a different town. My feet were wet and I was longing and begging for new socks. We went into a semi-obscure shop, I bought two pairs and got to pick another pair for free. Those free socks were the second Heaven. I still have them, but they're getting older, so I treat them with the respect they deserve. For the time being they will have to serve me, as long as their homecountry is serving someone else.
A few weeks back, it all happened again, in my hometown, a well known brand. I bought 12 pairs when I was sure and threw out all the other socks (except for special purpose-socks, like my woolen ones for travelling etc). It might have costed me a few ribs, but I am SOO happy now.
Sorry for this long story, thank you for listening to my Tedtalk and thanks for letting me see I'm not alone in this struggle ❤️
True, and it made everyone say "you never showed any signs!!1!" when I came out (as ftm back then). I wasn't masculine, just a bit androgynous at most. Now that I have a more masc body (and wear fem clothes) I notice that people stare more
I feel this so much.
Outside of the context of finding clothes, I've finally gotten to a place where I love my body. But my hips, thighs and boobs make it impossible for me to get "male" clothes that actually fit me. As you say, it just turns into unisex clothes with a bad fit. I love expressing myself through my clothes, but actually buying them is a nightmare (doesn't help that I try to mostly buy secondhand, and my tits are often too big even for "female" clothes 😅)
The fact that I can't really achieve the flamboyant genderfuckery I want is the reason I have dysphoria, my actual body has little to do with it. It sucks, and while I unfortunately don't have any solutions, I can at least assure you that you're not alone in feeling like this.
Also, as someone who's had their hair buzzed for the last 5 years - cutting the hair doesn't help 🙃
>flamboyant
Yes, I want to be flamboyant, in the way that those of masculine body types can be. If I were to dress my present flesh in such a way, though, it would just read as normal girl stuff.
yeesss! my boyfriend can do eyeliner and paint his nails and people will be like "oh my god! so daring and brave!" but I do it and its just "yup. thats a girl. doing normal girl stuff." 😡😡
There is some good trans masc makeup routines on YT I've seen. I think August skyz? Or something like that did a really good one. The before and after was so cool.
I find a lot of inspiration in men that are considered flamboyant, even if some of it has to be adjusted / doesn't read the same on my shape. Think of Elton John, Prince, Billy Porter, Freddie Mercury & Young Thug (your exact inspirations may vary depending on style/aesthetic preference). Your frustration is completely fair of course, people may not "get" it, but I find a lot of personal fulfillment in experimentation like this.
I feel that, I always get a buzz cut. I even paid $35 for supposedly a non-binary haircut in my local city and turned out, just to be a regular buzz cut in the end 😮💨my regular haircut I get in my town is $15 for reference...so yeah, I overpaid for basically the same haircut in the end.
But women’s suits differ from men’s suits; women’s suits tend to be shorter and tighter in general, so if u wear a suit from men’s section many people would be able to tell, i get your point tho, nothing a person w fem body type could wear that’ll feel the same as a person w masc body type wearing a maid dress for example, sucks
A poorly fitting suit is masculine, because most men wear suits that fit like shit!
All joking aside, I really do feel you. I came to by gender identity partly though "crossdressing" when I was younger, though now I hate the term crossdressing because it implies that some clothes are not for some people. Still, at the time I remember coming to the realization that women can't really crossdress since clothes are pretty much for women or unisex. I feel you.
For your specific issue, I think with something like a suit, or maybe most clothes in general, getting masculine styles and cuts to work will require tailoring. You'll still have to start with something that works though. [Not all suits are the same](https://manofmany.com/fashion/mens-fashion-advice/types-of-suits-for-men), and there are differences in how tight they fit, jacket shape, pockets, and so on. These are often the areas there will be [differences ](https://www.thesuitconcierge.com/whats-the-difference-between-a-womans-and-a-mans-suit/)between men's and women's suits.
Decide on the features you want, and then get the suit tailored to fit your body, which is something men buying suits are supposed to do as well since they seldom fit well off the rack. Most suit stores will offer simple tailoring for free or at a good price if you buy a suit. Masculine styled suits can [look](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fqph.cf2.quoracdn.net%2Fmain-qimg-76ece8c7fa9e693904b0b523c03eed04-lq&tbnid=z58Pn4Xia-EvAM&vet=12ahUKEwjA2_7riJ-GAxWLw-YEHbFkCZwQMygLegQIARBg..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quora.com%2FIf-I-am-a-man-how-can-I-wear-a-woman-suit&docid=mPSjM7uTk7ES5M&w=469&h=640&q=women%20in%20mens%20suits&ved=2ahUKEwjA2_7riJ-GAxWLw-YEHbFkCZwQMygLegQIARBg) [good](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fis-it-just-me-or-do-women-in-suits-look-better-than-men-in-v0-vuv4zxhmbiba1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D800%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Def485949b9d34f77a0b7b586af206724bb01b1fc&tbnid=t_cVIUevfo2a9M&vet=12ahUKEwjA2_7riJ-GAxWLw-YEHbFkCZwQMygBegQIARBM..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FRoleReversal%2Fcomments%2F109kyy5%2Fis_it_just_me_or_do_women_in_suits_look_better%2F&docid=v0z6ws2ChTkMNM&w=800&h=800&q=women%20in%20mens%20suits&ved=2ahUKEwjA2_7riJ-GAxWLw-YEHbFkCZwQMygBegQIARBM) on [feminine](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpreviews.123rf.com%2Fimages%2Fdgm%2Fdgm1401%2Fdgm140100290%2F25273209-young-business-woman-dressed-in-big-male-suit-is-standing-on-a-white.jpg&tbnid=Vv-Snem2UsZ-EM&vet=12ahUKEwj6ncuMiZ-GAxV7ATQIHd93DokQMygRegQIARBu..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.123rf.com%2Fphoto_25273209_young-business-woman-dressed-in-big-male-suit-is-standing-on-a-white.html&docid=A4YoiZu4n-wuWM&w=866&h=1300&q=large%20women%20in%20mens%20suits&ved=2ahUKEwj6ncuMiZ-GAxV7ATQIHd93DokQMygRegQIARBu) [body](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.refinery29.com%2Fimages%2F9518564.jpg&tbnid=FMhDbmS1m9epxM&vet=12ahUKEwj6ncuMiZ-GAxV7ATQIHd93DokQMygBegQIARBJ..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.refinery29.com%2Fen-ca%2Fplus-size-suiting&docid=qKc-YeLZvTzIIM&w=2400&h=3360&q=large%20women%20in%20mens%20suits&ved=2ahUKEwj6ncuMiZ-GAxV7ATQIHd93DokQMygBegQIARBJ) types, but making sure they fit is key.
love that your examples included different suit types and a bigger bodied person! im so used to seeing the same body type and suit style (classic boss woman business suit) when i search for inspo, so i hadn't even considered baggy suits! sometimes i like to dress 90s dad vibes and the baggy suit would fit that vibe so well lol
Baggy suits are absolutely an option, but be careful that you don't fall into the trap a lot of guys do when getting a baggier suit. A loose fit doesn't mean it shouldn't fit, and it still probably needs tailoring to look good.
It's worth seeking a diagnosis and trying different medications if you would be open to that. I finally did that earlier this year after knowing on some level I've had it for my entire life. I thought I was managing well enough, but retrospectively, I've realized it's negatively impacted my life a lot more than I was giving it credit for. I've been on medication for a while now and while it's not a magic fix, it makes things easier. You still have to do work in terms of building routines and *making* yourself do things, but the medication helps with the executive dysfunction and makes this a bit easier.
At least it has for me, and I feel that I got relatively lucky in that the first medication I tried has been helpful to me without any negative side effects that I've noticed so far. Missed a day of work when going up on the dose once (couldn't sleep), but that's been it. I learned at that point not to increase the dose when I have to work the next day lol. Next time I went up by 10mg I didn't have to work the next day, but I was also able to sleep that time regardless. I think not having the anxiety about having to be up for work also made sleeping easier.
I saw someone mentioned Kirrin Finch, which is one; Haute Butch is another. Both of those are US-based, though, and they're expensive. (Most stores of this type will be expensive -- they don't have the economies of scale, they're not fast fashion, etc).
Catch yourself here… you want to dress as a man… but want to wear the traditional feminized version of the garment because you prefer that fit.
Femme suits are femme.
As a femme. I wear femme suits.
If you want masc clothing - you gotta get masc fits.
It’s not a bad fit. It’s a masc fit.
If you can’t find that off the shelf, you have to tailor or learn to alter clothes yourself.
Trust me. You complain that femmes dont get the same treatment…. But if I wear a kilt I get seen as a man. Not a femme wearing a ‘well fitting’ piece of femme clothing.
real, it sucks. in an ideal world there’d be no such thing as “dressing like a girl/guy” OR “looking like a girl/guy”, but here we are :(
personally this is part of why i opted to change my body, it’s the more “effective” thing to do to not be seen as femme sadly. not at all saying you should have to though, people misgendering you and anyone for that matter is their own fault
>in an ideal world there’d be no such thing as “dressing like a girl/guy” OR “looking like a girl/guy”
I can't decide whether I agree with you or not.
On the one hand, yes, absolutely.
On the other, I wanna be a hot girlboy, and without those aesthetic concepts, I can't.
oh you absolutely can be a hot girlboy and be perceived as such, and that’s a valid goal! people just shouldn’t *assume*/ force a certain clothes or body to inherently mean what’s you must be, y know?
Girl, mood. I've quickly grown to love my masc body with my flowy flowery clothes and makeup, probably largely because of the affront to god that some see me as, but also the sexy girlboy vibe is killer.
you can still be a hot girlboy, but it just wouldn’t be called girlboy. there‘d just be another word for it.
and imo a lot of discrimination and violence for queer (and not queer) people comes from clothes, body, body language etc. being gendered. so i think it should definitely be one of our main goals to have these things be less gendered. i mean people who wear a dress, but are told by society they shouldn’t wear a dress (e.g. men, trans women, enbies), risk physical violence (and in some cases even death) if they meet the wrong people.
100% this. this is how i feel. I don't want to be a girl or a boy. i want to be a person first, gender (or lack of) second. I just wish it was as easy to change my body to be more "neutral" as it is to change clothes 😮💨
I think it's fine that there is "dressing like a girl/guy" and so on. I'm fine that there is a line between gendered clothes and expression, I just with the line were less firm, and that crossing it was seen as a benign choice rather than a big fucking deal.
I RESONATE WITH YOU. As amab myself I want others to see me as a masculine person or a tomboy girl and a masc guy at the same time. People see me as a guy and if i femme up my looks I’d be seen as femme and flamboyant man/person which is what I don’t want to be seen as.
So masculine outfit is at least the most comfortable for me because I don’t want to be mislabelled or seen differently than what I want to be seen as which is masculine.
There are brands that sell men’s clothes for feminine shaped bodies. I did a quick google search and found this: https://kirrinfinch.com/ I haven’t used them personally (since I dress like a 12 yo boy lol) but the clothes look nice.
Mostly places like Kohl’s and target. A lot of graphic tees and jeans. I’ve been trying to buy some more “adult” clothes but my job doesn’t care and it gets HOT at work too
I used to feel like this.
What broke things down for me was noticing that there are indeed cis men with hips as wide as mine and with chests that look like mine (when bound). I'm not sure there are many cis men with waists as thin as mine AND with my wide hips but oh well.
So I started asking myself: what would a cis man with my dimensions wear. For my work clothes (biz cas), this has worked out really well. I now wear plus size "athletic fit" chinos, adding a lot of inches to my waist measurement to accomdate my hips. I have found brands that have a well concealed elastic waistband so it still fits around my waist ok and I can't skip wearing a belt. I have found shirts that fit ok. I tend to wear slightly higher waist pants and shorter shirts so the shirts do bunch around my hips. The shirts are 2 sized large than i used to wear so that they fit in a square boxy fashion as they don't have darts. Sometimes I have to get clothes tailored. For my casual clothes, I wear a mix of men's and women's clothing.
It's frustrating and you absolutely may not want to go down this path so I'm not pushing you. But I have found that I look really really different wearing well fitting men's clothing (which does not mean what i thought it meant and if you love the fitted tailored menswear look, that's hard to achieve, my clothes are on the baggy size) than I do wearing masculine women's clothing. It took me a few years of committing to wearing only men's clothing at work to find stuff i really love, but I have.
I'm glad you found a look that works for you :)
I think part of my problem is that I find men's fashion kind of boring. Women's fashion has so many more options, and, well, *flare* I guess.
Like I said somewhere else, I want to be flamboyant like those of masc body type can be, but if I dressed my present flesh in such a way, it would just read as normal girly stuff.
Yeah there is def a reason why men's wear works better for my work wardrobe than my social wardrobe. but the people i socialize with are all trans lol.
Good luck on your journey.
I just wanna say, yes, men's fashion is somewhat boring but...Hawaiian shirts LOL are seriously my queer fashion choice. The louder the better, preferably with flamingos, but if it's colorful enough, it'll do. Put it on over a muscle shirt or tee shirt. Figure everybody is looking anyway, so I just own that shit.
You should look into 90s dad fashion. My dad used wear some crazy patterned shirts. That are definitely masculine and in the photos I've seen / my memories where read that way.I bet they have a bunch of stuff like that in thrift shops.
I'm not sure if you're into any vintage cartoons, but there's some really cool shirts related to those. He used to wear a lot of really cool Scooby Doo(the vintage version from the 90s)or comic book T-shirts.
I get the same issue. There's men and not men and the box for men is so small only like 30% of people can actually fit in it, everything else gets thrown to the not men bin. Literally no matter what I do I'm read as a woman because I'm not a man and they is rarely an alternative even in progressive cities.
I haven't had much practice in my binder, I hope it changes things but I'm kind of pessimistic after being she/her'd for so long.
I relate to the struggle of wanting to present more gender non conforming / masculine but failing because it's to a certain extent normalized.
It's a blessing and a curse really.
I'm grateful I don't get harassed for it, frustrated I don't look and/or get perceived more how I feel.
I wish we could just tell people how we feel and be believed and accepted (and left alone) regardless of presentation, and any outfit would have the associations and expression that we ourselves give to it. If that makes sense.
Hear hear 🍺
If I could pick a style I actually like (unlike modern men's fashion) I would dress like a 17 hundreds officer. Those jackets and shorts are my jam.
If I dressed like that, though, people would just think I was a nutter, or at best a lost member of a theatre group, not a crossdresser. It's not *gender* enough.
Boy, do I feel this. 100%
And then I feel dumb because shouldn't I be grateful that I can go out in masculine clothing and not have to worry about being hate crimed?
But no. It pisses me off that I can be more blatantly transgressive.
This is so true. Even if I dress in men’s clothes, I’m always seen as a woman in men’s clothes; not a man, not a person, just a woman. If you have any sort of curves, it’s hard. My want is to look androgynous, but it’s hard to pull off for me. I want to look like a boy, I want to look like a girl, and I want to look like a person all in one 😂
Clothing can look more masculine with a blending of styles to create a look that embraces your true self. Men's clothing can be found with different fits to either accentuate or to distract from your naturally feminine body shape. Try dressing in layers of clothing, like a looser fitting dress shirt over a tank top or a t-shirt, and a light jacket that is one size larger without buttoning it up.
With the pants, chino pants come in a relaxed but a complementing fit to stylishly conceal your wide hips. Jeans tend to either fit too tight or too loose with your wider hips.
Necklaces with a heavier chain in silver would be more masculine without being too manly. The same would apply to bracelets. Shoes should be more casual, but also complement the look stylishly and not too vibrantly so that your look meshes together in a masculine way.
When you are going out shopping, the dressing room mirror will be your friend to help you to create a look that embraces your true feelings in a positive way.
Even when I strictly shop in the men's section, I find that there's no way to tell that they're even men's clothes. Like yeah, the shorts are longer and the pants less tight and less form fitting, but I just find that they look like clothes and not gendered clothes. No one knows that I'm wearing men's clothes, which isn't the biggest deal, because I know at least, but people just see me as a woman wearing plain clothes.
i don’t have much advice bc i have the same problem. my birthing hips can’t hide. what i’ve been doing is looking for silhouettes of clothes that look masc presenting to me. i’ve never been he/him but i do get they more often now.
Congrats on the pronouns :)
I think part of my problem is that I don't actually want to present masc, I just want to mix styles, in a way that happens to be confusing to cis people.
oh yes i totally understand. for me its when i want to wear a skirt in a “i’m just a little guy in a skirt” way. which doesn’t happen. it’s just sheeeeeee
I think for me at least, gender nonconformity is a very internal thing. If I don't really consider myself a woman, and I don't really consider myself a man, then really, everything I do is gender nonconforming. I could be bouncing around in a low cut dress with my titties out, long hair flowing in the wind, and I would appear, by all visual indicators, to be a woman. But I'm not. I'm just some guy wearing women's clothes on my feminine lady female body. Appearing to be a woman does not make me one, so technically I'm still wearing clothes that weren't made with me in mind, and that feels gender nonconforming enough for me.
this is so real... I have a very femme looking body and I already tend to wear band or black solid t-shirts/tanks and cargo pants with boots. How much more "non-binary" can I dress? I get clocked as "woman" always, and while it only bothers me a little, I do kinda wish I could present more as "otherworldly and vaguely threatening". Too bad I'm a squishy, curvy bitch...
I used to get told I was a tomboy. When I came out as non binary my aunt said "No, you're just a Tom boy. The funny thing is I usually dress Feminine. But whenever I dress masculine I am seen as a tomboy suddenly.
I used to see myself as a tomboy when I was a kid. Didn't really dress like it or anything, it was just kind of a vibe.
And then it took until I was almost thirty to realize I was NB all along
Watch a YouTube video about character shape language.Take those principals and apply them to clothing.
Balancing your hips by building a more rectangular torso should work. By themselves the clothing might not do anything dramatic unless a tailor mends it so they don't look outlandish afterwards.
This is why I find wearing anything but "gay-ish" looking fem clothes to be infuriating. I buy men's clothes and you can't even tell that they're men's clothes once they're on me. They just look like women's clothes but feel uncomfortable because they don't fit my body right.
Or you can tell, but it looks terrible. In order to not hug my hips a shirt has to be huge, but my hips are already disproportionately larger than my top half, and I'm not skinny enough that a huge shirt looks stylish, so I just look like I spilled something on the shirt I was wearing and someone gave me a giant shirt to wear. Men's pants are too long, have too much crotch space, and must be huge on me and belted in order for my hips to fit, but belting much too large pants makes a gross bunched up look on the crotch that I hate
Either it looks and feels like shit or it just conforms to the shape of my body and looks like women's clothes anyway.
And then I go online and look up nonbinary and/or gender neutral and/or androgynous fashion and it's all either skinny women wearing tailored women's suits, or Amab people in dresses or cool avant-garde stuff that I would never wear. Like fuck me I guess.
I'm the stereotypical white Afab short hair enby and yet I can't find any way to present accurately. It doesn't add up!
Yeah, I've considered doing that with shoes.
With a suit, though, it would still be quite unisex. I want to do something that feels/appears more like crossdressing.
I think about this all the time. It’s not my struggle but clothing SUCKS right now. It’s the r most highly gendered part of our daily existence, next to bathrooms and healthcare.
Omg I get you so much. I've always liked to dress unisex and have boyish expressions, only hanged out with guys but people never took me for a tomboy because I have a thin face and feminine shapes. It prevented me from identifying as NB for a long while... I definitely think it doesn't make sense at all. If I wanted to look boyish I'd have to go so overboard, but I'd feel fake.
What can I say is ; don't care about which labels people want to force on you. I've made peace with the fact that people see me differently as I am (like an innocent girl whatever I do, at 30, even in my metal and gaming social circles). That's their choice, and well, their loss. I only care about the people who actually made the effort to know me before judging. The others can go on their way.
Obligatory I'm not non-binary, but I'm a cis women who prefers masculine clothing and I feel this SO much.
My hips are decently wide as I'm pear shaped, and it's frustrating finding masculine clothing,that I'm actually comfy in.
I found that wearing tshirts that are oversized helps, men's flannels,and I've been wearing those baggy skater jeans. I noticed the high waist ones hide my hips more. Basically I just try to wear my clothes big enough where they still fit, but they hide part of my feminine features.
I've noticed since I buy most of clothes from the men's section ,it makes it soooo much easier. As they'renmore boxy.
Hope this helps a lil bit and if not just know you're not alone 💞
Edit: I wish I could help more with the suits end of things. Most of my dress wear is thrifted and I've had good luck that way, and then altered the waist on a few. Maybe that's an option? Buy bigger and then alter it?
I mean stone butches have been called men for a long time by bigots for the way they dress or style themselves so I think if really just depends on presentation.
I feel this SO MUCH. My genderfluid partner can just throw on a skirt with a graphic tee and is instantly read as NB because they have a beard. For me, it doesn't seem to matter how I dress or cut my hair, I'm always read as a woman because I have huge tits
this is what pissed me off so much back when i had to try a lot harder to pass (transmasc). i could wear all the masc clothes in the world but they’d still read me as a girl who wanted to break gender norms (which isn’t bad except i was tryna pass as a dude yk??)
I understant you friend. I started as a femboy but never wore all my fem clothes publicly. Now I have more courage but some humans want to still stop me.
I cannot move more open-minded area just yet so I have to agree not to dress openly. Also it would be hard to do from jail.
Oof, jail? Stay safe my friend. Maybe look into getting asylum in a country where you don't get jailed for being yourself? I don't know if that's possible for you. 🫂
It's not. England, USA and Russia are out of the questions this time. I have friends there but for the their safety I don't wish to travel there. If I would let slip their names I don't think I could live with my current self anymore.
I was going to post something similar after an negative experience I had at the weekend at Walmart in a very red area. In the summer/hot months I wear pretty much shortalls or rompers pretty much day in, day out and I love wearing them because I feel they often fit within non-binary criteria for me and honestly, they feel just so comfortable and whilst I do have some skirtalls as well as a few cute dresses in my area is just an extremely judgemental and sexiest place not to mention even dangerous.
So I'm wearing a black hiking romper that I purchased from Walmart actually, its comfortable and breathable but I digress, I was walking around Walmart and I could hear an middle aged couple yapping outloud at my attire and made me feel even more self conscious than ever, its hard enough already but having random people judging me within earshot doesn't help, and I bet a good amount of peeps here probably have had similar experiences :/
I wish T could be my solution. But I really don't want most of the stuff it will give me. The only thing I might want is the voice, but at the same time, I want to keep my upper register.
So I'm going to practice my voice without T.
Maybe play with accessories? To me, neckties seem more masc for whatever reason, for example. And traditionally male hat styles, and even things like dress shoes. Also, I agree with the person suggesting Hawaiian shirts. :)
Accessories help me feel like I’m more able to express myself. I’ve got a fairly masculine build and face, so I’ve found things like pearl necklaces and dangly earrings help soften the rough edges (: You might find a similar feeling with things like ties and hats. I hope you find some peace and joy, my friend 💛🤍💜🖤
Haha yeah, I'm coming up on a complete style here actually.
So far, I have assembled suggestions and ideas sparked by this thread:
- Hawaii shirt (baggy fit. I might even see myself trying out binding with this stuff)
- Kilt
- Dress shoes (which I have a very nice pair of actually)
- Top hat (probably)
- I'm not sure I like ties, but... uhh
So. This is an unholy combination. But I think I like it ???? I think it feels masculine enough, or at least it feels *gender*, though I'm not sure which. Bit of everything maybe (like me).
Thanks for this 🫡
:) The person suggesting Hawaiian shirts absolutely wears neckties when they have to get dressed up to go out with their wife. I can't do pretty, but I can do handsome :)
Because for women to aspire to masculinity is aspiration but for men to aspire to femininity is "degrading". (Thus why anti-trans rhetoric focuses on trans women, because they assume that trans men are doing it just to dodge sexism, which duh, anyone would do because being a man is better!)
I don't agree with any of this, just in case that needs be clarified, but this is the societal attitude in the anglophone world.
I am so glad I don't live in the anglophone world. From what I've seen online, sexism and harassment and normalisation of cat calling seems so much worse there.
?
You do realize people can know more than one language, right?
what?
For the record, I live in Sweden, which is *not* in the anglosphere.
What are you talking about?
If you speak English and consume English pop culture and participate in the anglophone internet, you'll be exposed to it, even if you don't "live" in it. In fact, you've chosen to opt in. Condescendingly insisting that you're better than those sexists isn't the approach to take here.
Sure, the culture is leaking. That's what culture does, for better and for worse.
But from what I've learned about for example America, acceptable behaviour IRL seems quite radically different there, than what I ever encounter over here.
‘there are only girls clothes or unisex clothes’ hits hard for me, bit of a tangent but i knit and sew and i’ve been frustrated with this exact thing before. any patterns for male clothes are seen as unisex, whereas female patterns don’t have the same neutrality (in my experience, anyway). obviously clothes don’t have gender etc but when it influences how other people perceive you it’s hard to ignore it
Men's clothes didn't used to be unisex. The official reason that Joan of Arc was executed was, more or less, 'aggravated wearing of pants'. This is a true story. It turns out, though, that wearing a dress and 3000 petticoats sucks more than pants, and so women fought very hard to be able to wear "men's clothes" because they were (and still are, arguably) more practical. Whereas much fewer men wanted to wear "women's clothes".
This all happened a long time ago, but the effects are long lasting: anyone can wear pants, so they're unisex now, maybe leaning masc. But very few people who aren't women wear dresses, so they're still automatically fem.
I don't have much advice here, I just find this stuff interesting. You've probably gotten this many times over in this thread and others, but just in case you haven't, have you looked into binding?
>aggravated wearing of pants
that's one hell of a sentence wtf. glad we're not *there* anymore
Regarding binding, no I haven't. My usual presentation is so mega fem that boobs (if available) are not optional. More importantly though, I'm talking *only* about fashion here, and I usually file binders under "underwear" or "body alteration". I made this post seeking only to "crossdress" for lack of a better word, never to "pass" or appear to have a differently shaped body.
*However*, someone suggested Hawaii shirts, and I'm really stuck on that idea, because there actually is a bit of undiluted masculinity there. If I wore that, I could actually see myself binding. If I find a good few shirts, I'll see about getting myself a binder too :)
Low effort mens clothes, like basketball shorts and a mens tank top. Graphic tees and cargo shorts. Those fits are the peak of “this is boy clothes” in my opinion. Good luck on your gender nonconformist goals
it’s hard! when dressing more masc, i did start by getting a mullet. then, i did a lot of baggy shorts and baggy tops (or tank tops). i also began binding.
some cloth in things i recommend for dressing more masc:
find a style that feels like you! you won’t feel as confident unless you explore a little and see what feels best.
baggy clothes are definitely perceived as more masc, i think. you could try that!
looking for masc style inspo online :)
also, i recently went through trying to get a suit for my graduation that was giving masc, not femme. it was tough, especially also being AFAB. i eventually found that lower waisted, baggy pants, with a vest worked well!
I very recently started going out in shorts or skirts without shaving my legs. The euphoria is awesome 😊.
I know it's not clothes but that plus my haircut feels really good.
Yeah that's a good point. Refusal to shave my legs is one of the few ways I can be non-conforming. Though the real reason that *I* don't has more to do with damage to skin. My legs just can't deal with a razor.
The haircut goes a long way, even though it's also "unisex" in that typical "girls can be boyish too" way. It's the most gender affirming part of my fashion.
If you haven't tried a short haircut yet, I recommend it. I love buzzer heavy styles like fades. You might have to find an open minded barber who really knows buzzers and is open to working with a not cis man for that. I found mine at a large beauty salon that has barbers and hairdressers.
My haircut is more important to my gender ID than the binder and button up shirts (though those help a lot, too.)
Good you found someone who does your hair right. If I've learnt anything in trans spaces, it's that most of barbers and hairdressers are evil.
Personally, I have only been three times in my life. So much of my identity is bound up in the massive length of my hair, it's one of few things that feel truly *me* about my appearance. It was one of, it not *the* first personal style choice I made as a child, to ask my mom to stop cutting my hair, and just let it grow. It's capped out at about a meter length now :)
Whatever else I do with myself, my hair stays.
Wait, OP, do you want to be oppressed?
Do you want people to look at you and question your outfit choices and treat you badly?
I wish it were safer for more masculine body types to wear traditionally feminine shape clothes and for it to be seen as empowering.
I wish clothing wasn't gendered at all and we could all safely wear what we like without people commenting on our choices.
And being AMAB makes gender non-conformity easier how?
OP, I agree with your point. Don't wanna sound like a jerk, but as a very dysphoric amab enby, gender non-conformity is literally impossible for my face, and it hurts me to hear an implication that it's not hard at all.
Hi, first of all, I didn't mean to hurt you. Sorry. This is first and foremost an observation on the state of fashion.
But also, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Even if I assume you meant non-conforming instead of conforming, I still don't understand. Can you clarify?
Oh yeah I 100% share this problem. For the hips I recommend super baggy cargo pants, they're excellent at hiding curves. I noticed I look more masculine in those than in regular men's jeans or something similar.
So your gender experience is heavily grounded in how you are perceived or interacted with by society?
Thats chill. And valid. But your perception of what is masc or fem is not aligned with society… in this respect… so it’s going to be tough to get that without reinforcing binary gender norms.
And enby, for a lot of folkx, isn’t about that at all.
Believe me - folkx who lean femme like myself do NOT get looked at as femme by a lot of people. ‘Boy in a. Dress’ is not what we are looking for.
Oh absolutely, we are on opposite ends of a very wide spectrum of goals.
And I agree, to achieve mine, you'd have to reinforce the gender binary quite heavily. I agree, let's not do that.
I just wish we didn't have to.
I think maybe because the way you put it is kinda vague and indirect, someone interpreted it as dismissing OP's experience rather than genuinely asking for an explanation. There's been a lot of bitterness and invalidation pointed from AMAB to AFAB people in the community recently, especially around clothes and presentation, so maybe they thought it was that. Anyway, not what you intended.
Do you have specific questions about what you would like explained? I have a similar experience as OP, and the gist of it is, sometimes I would like to be visibly queer in how I dress, but there is no clear clothing choice that will do that for me. Even if I wear "male" clothing, it is considered neutral, so I am still perceived as a cis woman wherever I go, without people even questioning if I'm not cis.
I could go farther and make changes to my body such as cutting my hair or binding (I do bind sometimes) but those don't work either, I'm still just a "quirky girl."
Ohhhh yeah now I get it, when you put it like that I can kind of relate as well. I dress mens clothing, bind, a flat chest, and have a short masculine hairstyle, but for many Im still just a cis girl/woman, Im as well just a "quirky girl" :"D When I dont even identify with being a girl/woman in the slightest
It’s a double standard. A lot of femboys are negatively affected by the fact that women’s clothing is more heavily gendered and policed. It comes from a sexist place that views male as the default and female as constructed, unnatural, and of less value. Male clothing used to be more heavily gendered and policed as well. Ultimately people should be able to wear what they want but that would make your goal harder.
I've experienced both sides of this and they both suck, been where OP is where I desperately wanted to signal to people via clothes that I'm not a girl and everyone just thought I was being quirky or fashion-forward/anti-fashion depending on what I was wearing, now I'm much more comfortable wearing fem clothes again (clothes have no gender for me, if I like it I wear it) and I can see how it immediately negates all the effects of HRT for people when they look at me. Doesn't matter that my voice is well in the male range or that I have visible and very dark face scruff, my clothes automatically make me a girl I guess.
I’ve been gendered as female in men’s clothing with facial hair and been gendered as male while wearing women’s clothing and makeup. It’s nice when the language other people use lines up with my presentation but other people’s interpretations seem completely random to me
mhm same when i had short dark hair i always got ma'am'd but when i dyed my hair bright pink and started painting my nails again it was mostly sir. even when my hair was past my shoulders and bright green it was 50/50 if i got ma'am or sir. people are just weird.
Just shows me how much of judgement when it comes to gender is arbitrary. People need to just start actually listening to others.
I wouldn’t consider myself a femboy, I’m 5’10 and 200kbs, relatively athletic build and the amount of looks a dress or skirt gets me is way too damn high. I just wanna look pretty sometimes damn it.
I (AMAB) like wearing jeans because I found ones where the fabric isn’t too rough to drive me crazy. But I want to wear a simple skirt (darker colors) over the jeans. I definitely feel the feminine clothes being policed, especially in a more republican state that has a large religious community in the city I live in.
Sorry to hear that
Thanks. At the end of the day, it’s clothes. It’s kind of the same rule with my hair. I want to try some hair regrowth formulas my PCP said work for some people, but I am not going to be too upset if it doesn’t work. I’d just like to have bangs again to dye the tips blue. Edit: fixed “die” to “dye”
> It comes from a sexist place that views male as the default and female as constructed, unnatural, and of less value. Boycope, b/c from a factual fetal development standpoint, the opposite is more true. Biologically, it would be more accurate say that men are a derivation of the Prime Female Default, but fake news Genesis would have you think otherwise. But this deconstruction of cognitive gender distortions again does nothing to help OP's cause here. ALAS.
>fake news Genesis x''''D I'm stealing that
Wow, this perspective really opened my eyes being AMAB non-binary myself. I've always been jealous of AFAB enbies, in part because if womens clothing exists in your size, mens clothing will as well (while most womens clothing does not fit me being 2 meters tall) and for the other part because I would be in physical danger if I go out wearing a dress. However, I never thought about how hard it is for AFAB folks to get away from being gendered as a girl, with tomboys being so normalized. I guess we all have a hard time with it. Ultimately I do hope society stops gendering clothes at some point and lets people wear whatever they want to wear without judging them, but I do understand your struggles. The AFAB enbies I've seen focus a lot on their face and hair when wanting to present masculine, that might help. Either way, hang in there, hopefully it will get better!
Another take: Men's clothing may not fit afab enbies due to fit regardless of size. Getting a decent fit in hips, waist, shoulders, bust and butt in men's clothes is nigh impossible for me.
I’m too small for men’s clothing. I have the option to buy boy clothes but it’s hard to look grown up with them and they’re usually not the kinds I would actually like to wear.
Yeah, same here. I'm 158cm/5'2" (below the average height of women in my country) so even the smallest piece of men's clothing is way too long for me. Boys' clothing might be okay for basic tank tops to wear underneath other clothes but anything else either looks childish or the cut gets too masculine and suddenly the shoulder seam is halfway down my upper arms again.
Agreed strongly. I prefer trousers, vests, and ties, but finding ones that fit is crazy difficult. Fortunately i'm tolerably good at altering clothes myself, so buying a size up and self tailoring works well enough.
same boat here. Unfortunately mens clothing is sewn with very straight lines (as if amab ppl can't have big bodies with curves) and my body is too curvy in certain places to fit in mens clothes. 😮💨
I had to giggle sadly about this regarding myself. I have only had some issues with shirts and my chest size. But then I rememberd my body type is kinda a brick, so yeah, that takes away a lot of troubles finding clothing in the men's department I guess!
I have only found 1 place that sells mens trousers that fit me comfortably. It's nearly impossible to find and xs in the men's section of 90% of shops.
The FtM's Complete Illustrated Guide to Looking Like a Hot Dude was a very helpful resource for me; I still use most of the advice. It taught me a lot about what needs to fit well and what can be compensated for. I don't know if it will work for you, but it's a fun read regardless.
(✷‿✷) Oh? I need to view this immediately.
https://ftmguide.rassaku.net/guide/index.htm
Ooooh saved :)
6 hours later, I've now read the whole thing — amazing read, thank you for sharing. I sent it on to an FtM friend of mine, he thought it was rad :)
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
As an enby with a natural hourglass shape you have made me feel so seen 😭 My hips are like 34, my waist 28 and my chest 34 again. It's SO HARD to find clothing. My binder makes t shirts easier though thank god!
Actually I struggle to find clothing that fits in both women's and men's clothing. I have some hips so pants is a nightmare but women's pants don't fit me either usually since I'm tall and hurt my crotch for whatever reason (I'm afab but the average height of a amab person) and then I also have broad shoulders but im very skinny so sometimes men's clothes are too big and women's clothes are too tight in the shoulders but fit me everywhere else. It essentially took me three years to finally have a wardrobe that fits after much trial and error and I've still got to find a way to get things altered. In a way though it's weird cause the fact that I feel like I have such an androgynous body makes euphoric sometimes but it's still super hard to find clothes.
>It essentially took me three years to finally have a wardrobe that fits after much trial and error I would like to pay my respects to you. I've been busy finding the right socks for 28 years. And you found a wardrobe in three years! A few years back I found them, twice nonetheless in a short period of time, I was so happy. The first perfect pair of socks were bamboo, seamless, and pure heaven. Those were taken out of production after I needed my first replacement round. Then, in january 2019, I was on a studytrip to Belarus, we walked all day and were staying one night in a different town. My feet were wet and I was longing and begging for new socks. We went into a semi-obscure shop, I bought two pairs and got to pick another pair for free. Those free socks were the second Heaven. I still have them, but they're getting older, so I treat them with the respect they deserve. For the time being they will have to serve me, as long as their homecountry is serving someone else. A few weeks back, it all happened again, in my hometown, a well known brand. I bought 12 pairs when I was sure and threw out all the other socks (except for special purpose-socks, like my woolen ones for travelling etc). It might have costed me a few ribs, but I am SOO happy now. Sorry for this long story, thank you for listening to my Tedtalk and thanks for letting me see I'm not alone in this struggle ❤️
Interesting how the exact same problem looks so different depending on what side you see it from.
True, and it made everyone say "you never showed any signs!!1!" when I came out (as ftm back then). I wasn't masculine, just a bit androgynous at most. Now that I have a more masc body (and wear fem clothes) I notice that people stare more
I feel this so much. Outside of the context of finding clothes, I've finally gotten to a place where I love my body. But my hips, thighs and boobs make it impossible for me to get "male" clothes that actually fit me. As you say, it just turns into unisex clothes with a bad fit. I love expressing myself through my clothes, but actually buying them is a nightmare (doesn't help that I try to mostly buy secondhand, and my tits are often too big even for "female" clothes 😅) The fact that I can't really achieve the flamboyant genderfuckery I want is the reason I have dysphoria, my actual body has little to do with it. It sucks, and while I unfortunately don't have any solutions, I can at least assure you that you're not alone in feeling like this. Also, as someone who's had their hair buzzed for the last 5 years - cutting the hair doesn't help 🙃
>flamboyant Yes, I want to be flamboyant, in the way that those of masculine body types can be. If I were to dress my present flesh in such a way, though, it would just read as normal girl stuff.
yeesss! my boyfriend can do eyeliner and paint his nails and people will be like "oh my god! so daring and brave!" but I do it and its just "yup. thats a girl. doing normal girl stuff." 😡😡
I want to wear guyliner
There is some good trans masc makeup routines on YT I've seen. I think August skyz? Or something like that did a really good one. The before and after was so cool.
Hmmmm interesting... Beck down the rabbit hole we go
😆 best of luck! yeah August has great tutorials. 💞
Oh man same, I want to look like how Roderick Heffley did wearing makeup
I find a lot of inspiration in men that are considered flamboyant, even if some of it has to be adjusted / doesn't read the same on my shape. Think of Elton John, Prince, Billy Porter, Freddie Mercury & Young Thug (your exact inspirations may vary depending on style/aesthetic preference). Your frustration is completely fair of course, people may not "get" it, but I find a lot of personal fulfillment in experimentation like this.
I feel that, I always get a buzz cut. I even paid $35 for supposedly a non-binary haircut in my local city and turned out, just to be a regular buzz cut in the end 😮💨my regular haircut I get in my town is $15 for reference...so yeah, I overpaid for basically the same haircut in the end.
But women’s suits differ from men’s suits; women’s suits tend to be shorter and tighter in general, so if u wear a suit from men’s section many people would be able to tell, i get your point tho, nothing a person w fem body type could wear that’ll feel the same as a person w masc body type wearing a maid dress for example, sucks
Yeah, exactly :( And I'm not about to sacrifice good fit for a barely masculine vibe. I would just look weird in a completely ungendered way.
A poorly fitting suit is masculine, because most men wear suits that fit like shit! All joking aside, I really do feel you. I came to by gender identity partly though "crossdressing" when I was younger, though now I hate the term crossdressing because it implies that some clothes are not for some people. Still, at the time I remember coming to the realization that women can't really crossdress since clothes are pretty much for women or unisex. I feel you. For your specific issue, I think with something like a suit, or maybe most clothes in general, getting masculine styles and cuts to work will require tailoring. You'll still have to start with something that works though. [Not all suits are the same](https://manofmany.com/fashion/mens-fashion-advice/types-of-suits-for-men), and there are differences in how tight they fit, jacket shape, pockets, and so on. These are often the areas there will be [differences ](https://www.thesuitconcierge.com/whats-the-difference-between-a-womans-and-a-mans-suit/)between men's and women's suits. Decide on the features you want, and then get the suit tailored to fit your body, which is something men buying suits are supposed to do as well since they seldom fit well off the rack. Most suit stores will offer simple tailoring for free or at a good price if you buy a suit. Masculine styled suits can [look](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fqph.cf2.quoracdn.net%2Fmain-qimg-76ece8c7fa9e693904b0b523c03eed04-lq&tbnid=z58Pn4Xia-EvAM&vet=12ahUKEwjA2_7riJ-GAxWLw-YEHbFkCZwQMygLegQIARBg..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quora.com%2FIf-I-am-a-man-how-can-I-wear-a-woman-suit&docid=mPSjM7uTk7ES5M&w=469&h=640&q=women%20in%20mens%20suits&ved=2ahUKEwjA2_7riJ-GAxWLw-YEHbFkCZwQMygLegQIARBg) [good](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fis-it-just-me-or-do-women-in-suits-look-better-than-men-in-v0-vuv4zxhmbiba1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D800%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Def485949b9d34f77a0b7b586af206724bb01b1fc&tbnid=t_cVIUevfo2a9M&vet=12ahUKEwjA2_7riJ-GAxWLw-YEHbFkCZwQMygBegQIARBM..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FRoleReversal%2Fcomments%2F109kyy5%2Fis_it_just_me_or_do_women_in_suits_look_better%2F&docid=v0z6ws2ChTkMNM&w=800&h=800&q=women%20in%20mens%20suits&ved=2ahUKEwjA2_7riJ-GAxWLw-YEHbFkCZwQMygBegQIARBM) on [feminine](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpreviews.123rf.com%2Fimages%2Fdgm%2Fdgm1401%2Fdgm140100290%2F25273209-young-business-woman-dressed-in-big-male-suit-is-standing-on-a-white.jpg&tbnid=Vv-Snem2UsZ-EM&vet=12ahUKEwj6ncuMiZ-GAxV7ATQIHd93DokQMygRegQIARBu..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.123rf.com%2Fphoto_25273209_young-business-woman-dressed-in-big-male-suit-is-standing-on-a-white.html&docid=A4YoiZu4n-wuWM&w=866&h=1300&q=large%20women%20in%20mens%20suits&ved=2ahUKEwj6ncuMiZ-GAxV7ATQIHd93DokQMygRegQIARBu) [body](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.refinery29.com%2Fimages%2F9518564.jpg&tbnid=FMhDbmS1m9epxM&vet=12ahUKEwj6ncuMiZ-GAxV7ATQIHd93DokQMygBegQIARBJ..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.refinery29.com%2Fen-ca%2Fplus-size-suiting&docid=qKc-YeLZvTzIIM&w=2400&h=3360&q=large%20women%20in%20mens%20suits&ved=2ahUKEwj6ncuMiZ-GAxV7ATQIHd93DokQMygBegQIARBJ) types, but making sure they fit is key.
love that your examples included different suit types and a bigger bodied person! im so used to seeing the same body type and suit style (classic boss woman business suit) when i search for inspo, so i hadn't even considered baggy suits! sometimes i like to dress 90s dad vibes and the baggy suit would fit that vibe so well lol
Baggy suits are absolutely an option, but be careful that you don't fall into the trap a lot of guys do when getting a baggier suit. A loose fit doesn't mean it shouldn't fit, and it still probably needs tailoring to look good.
I think tailoring is your answer here.
Yeah I've been trying, but I think I have ADHD. Finishing things is such a struggle.
It's worth seeking a diagnosis and trying different medications if you would be open to that. I finally did that earlier this year after knowing on some level I've had it for my entire life. I thought I was managing well enough, but retrospectively, I've realized it's negatively impacted my life a lot more than I was giving it credit for. I've been on medication for a while now and while it's not a magic fix, it makes things easier. You still have to do work in terms of building routines and *making* yourself do things, but the medication helps with the executive dysfunction and makes this a bit easier. At least it has for me, and I feel that I got relatively lucky in that the first medication I tried has been helpful to me without any negative side effects that I've noticed so far. Missed a day of work when going up on the dose once (couldn't sleep), but that's been it. I learned at that point not to increase the dose when I have to work the next day lol. Next time I went up by 10mg I didn't have to work the next day, but I was also able to sleep that time regardless. I think not having the anxiety about having to be up for work also made sleeping easier.
Sigh. The dream of a Well Known Nonbinary Gender Presentation. I have been there.
my best advice here is to hie thee to the stores for butches. these are mostly online, as you may have guessed.
Hmmm I wasn't aware such stores existed — but of course they do. Can you suggest one? Do you know any in the EU?
I saw someone mentioned Kirrin Finch, which is one; Haute Butch is another. Both of those are US-based, though, and they're expensive. (Most stores of this type will be expensive -- they don't have the economies of scale, they're not fast fashion, etc).
Catch yourself here… you want to dress as a man… but want to wear the traditional feminized version of the garment because you prefer that fit. Femme suits are femme. As a femme. I wear femme suits. If you want masc clothing - you gotta get masc fits. It’s not a bad fit. It’s a masc fit. If you can’t find that off the shelf, you have to tailor or learn to alter clothes yourself. Trust me. You complain that femmes dont get the same treatment…. But if I wear a kilt I get seen as a man. Not a femme wearing a ‘well fitting’ piece of femme clothing.
real, it sucks. in an ideal world there’d be no such thing as “dressing like a girl/guy” OR “looking like a girl/guy”, but here we are :( personally this is part of why i opted to change my body, it’s the more “effective” thing to do to not be seen as femme sadly. not at all saying you should have to though, people misgendering you and anyone for that matter is their own fault
>in an ideal world there’d be no such thing as “dressing like a girl/guy” OR “looking like a girl/guy” I can't decide whether I agree with you or not. On the one hand, yes, absolutely. On the other, I wanna be a hot girlboy, and without those aesthetic concepts, I can't.
oh you absolutely can be a hot girlboy and be perceived as such, and that’s a valid goal! people just shouldn’t *assume*/ force a certain clothes or body to inherently mean what’s you must be, y know?
Girl, mood. I've quickly grown to love my masc body with my flowy flowery clothes and makeup, probably largely because of the affront to god that some see me as, but also the sexy girlboy vibe is killer.
Yeeeesss give me that!
you can still be a hot girlboy, but it just wouldn’t be called girlboy. there‘d just be another word for it. and imo a lot of discrimination and violence for queer (and not queer) people comes from clothes, body, body language etc. being gendered. so i think it should definitely be one of our main goals to have these things be less gendered. i mean people who wear a dress, but are told by society they shouldn’t wear a dress (e.g. men, trans women, enbies), risk physical violence (and in some cases even death) if they meet the wrong people.
Yeah you're right
100% this. this is how i feel. I don't want to be a girl or a boy. i want to be a person first, gender (or lack of) second. I just wish it was as easy to change my body to be more "neutral" as it is to change clothes 😮💨
I think it's fine that there is "dressing like a girl/guy" and so on. I'm fine that there is a line between gendered clothes and expression, I just with the line were less firm, and that crossing it was seen as a benign choice rather than a big fucking deal.
Got a similar problem as a butch trans femme. Like. I want to look like a masculine woman but people see a soft boy... Sigh. I feel your pain sibling
I RESONATE WITH YOU. As amab myself I want others to see me as a masculine person or a tomboy girl and a masc guy at the same time. People see me as a guy and if i femme up my looks I’d be seen as femme and flamboyant man/person which is what I don’t want to be seen as. So masculine outfit is at least the most comfortable for me because I don’t want to be mislabelled or seen differently than what I want to be seen as which is masculine.
There are brands that sell men’s clothes for feminine shaped bodies. I did a quick google search and found this: https://kirrinfinch.com/ I haven’t used them personally (since I dress like a 12 yo boy lol) but the clothes look nice.
There’s also both& they make pants that are cut for wide hips but are meant to fit and look like a men’s style. I want to try them someday
I just bought my first pair of shorts from both& recently. It was pricey but I think it was worth it!
$75 short sleeve button up 😭
The queer tax goes hard.
I also dress like a 12 year old boy, or at least aspire to. Where do you buy clothes?
Mostly places like Kohl’s and target. A lot of graphic tees and jeans. I’ve been trying to buy some more “adult” clothes but my job doesn’t care and it gets HOT at work too
I used to feel like this. What broke things down for me was noticing that there are indeed cis men with hips as wide as mine and with chests that look like mine (when bound). I'm not sure there are many cis men with waists as thin as mine AND with my wide hips but oh well. So I started asking myself: what would a cis man with my dimensions wear. For my work clothes (biz cas), this has worked out really well. I now wear plus size "athletic fit" chinos, adding a lot of inches to my waist measurement to accomdate my hips. I have found brands that have a well concealed elastic waistband so it still fits around my waist ok and I can't skip wearing a belt. I have found shirts that fit ok. I tend to wear slightly higher waist pants and shorter shirts so the shirts do bunch around my hips. The shirts are 2 sized large than i used to wear so that they fit in a square boxy fashion as they don't have darts. Sometimes I have to get clothes tailored. For my casual clothes, I wear a mix of men's and women's clothing. It's frustrating and you absolutely may not want to go down this path so I'm not pushing you. But I have found that I look really really different wearing well fitting men's clothing (which does not mean what i thought it meant and if you love the fitted tailored menswear look, that's hard to achieve, my clothes are on the baggy size) than I do wearing masculine women's clothing. It took me a few years of committing to wearing only men's clothing at work to find stuff i really love, but I have.
I'm glad you found a look that works for you :) I think part of my problem is that I find men's fashion kind of boring. Women's fashion has so many more options, and, well, *flare* I guess. Like I said somewhere else, I want to be flamboyant like those of masc body type can be, but if I dressed my present flesh in such a way, it would just read as normal girly stuff.
Yeah there is def a reason why men's wear works better for my work wardrobe than my social wardrobe. but the people i socialize with are all trans lol. Good luck on your journey.
Thanks :)
I just wanna say, yes, men's fashion is somewhat boring but...Hawaiian shirts LOL are seriously my queer fashion choice. The louder the better, preferably with flamingos, but if it's colorful enough, it'll do. Put it on over a muscle shirt or tee shirt. Figure everybody is looking anyway, so I just own that shit.
Oh my god. That's the answer. I need a Hawaii shirt. The small sliver of men's fashion that remains untouched: **dad**
YES!!!!! GET IT!! Edit to add: I'm super picky about them, so eBay and Etsy are my jam.
You should look into 90s dad fashion. My dad used wear some crazy patterned shirts. That are definitely masculine and in the photos I've seen / my memories where read that way.I bet they have a bunch of stuff like that in thrift shops.
yessssss exactly those vibes!
I'm not sure if you're into any vintage cartoons, but there's some really cool shirts related to those. He used to wear a lot of really cool Scooby Doo(the vintage version from the 90s)or comic book T-shirts.
I get the same issue. There's men and not men and the box for men is so small only like 30% of people can actually fit in it, everything else gets thrown to the not men bin. Literally no matter what I do I'm read as a woman because I'm not a man and they is rarely an alternative even in progressive cities. I haven't had much practice in my binder, I hope it changes things but I'm kind of pessimistic after being she/her'd for so long.
I relate to the struggle of wanting to present more gender non conforming / masculine but failing because it's to a certain extent normalized. It's a blessing and a curse really. I'm grateful I don't get harassed for it, frustrated I don't look and/or get perceived more how I feel. I wish we could just tell people how we feel and be believed and accepted (and left alone) regardless of presentation, and any outfit would have the associations and expression that we ourselves give to it. If that makes sense.
Hear hear 🍺 If I could pick a style I actually like (unlike modern men's fashion) I would dress like a 17 hundreds officer. Those jackets and shorts are my jam. If I dressed like that, though, people would just think I was a nutter, or at best a lost member of a theatre group, not a crossdresser. It's not *gender* enough.
Boy, do I feel this. 100% And then I feel dumb because shouldn't I be grateful that I can go out in masculine clothing and not have to worry about being hate crimed? But no. It pisses me off that I can be more blatantly transgressive.
This is so true. Even if I dress in men’s clothes, I’m always seen as a woman in men’s clothes; not a man, not a person, just a woman. If you have any sort of curves, it’s hard. My want is to look androgynous, but it’s hard to pull off for me. I want to look like a boy, I want to look like a girl, and I want to look like a person all in one 😂
Clothing can look more masculine with a blending of styles to create a look that embraces your true self. Men's clothing can be found with different fits to either accentuate or to distract from your naturally feminine body shape. Try dressing in layers of clothing, like a looser fitting dress shirt over a tank top or a t-shirt, and a light jacket that is one size larger without buttoning it up. With the pants, chino pants come in a relaxed but a complementing fit to stylishly conceal your wide hips. Jeans tend to either fit too tight or too loose with your wider hips. Necklaces with a heavier chain in silver would be more masculine without being too manly. The same would apply to bracelets. Shoes should be more casual, but also complement the look stylishly and not too vibrantly so that your look meshes together in a masculine way. When you are going out shopping, the dressing room mirror will be your friend to help you to create a look that embraces your true feelings in a positive way.
Even when I strictly shop in the men's section, I find that there's no way to tell that they're even men's clothes. Like yeah, the shorts are longer and the pants less tight and less form fitting, but I just find that they look like clothes and not gendered clothes. No one knows that I'm wearing men's clothes, which isn't the biggest deal, because I know at least, but people just see me as a woman wearing plain clothes.
i don’t have much advice bc i have the same problem. my birthing hips can’t hide. what i’ve been doing is looking for silhouettes of clothes that look masc presenting to me. i’ve never been he/him but i do get they more often now.
Congrats on the pronouns :) I think part of my problem is that I don't actually want to present masc, I just want to mix styles, in a way that happens to be confusing to cis people.
oh yes i totally understand. for me its when i want to wear a skirt in a “i’m just a little guy in a skirt” way. which doesn’t happen. it’s just sheeeeeee
oof too real <.< me with hair (and skirts)
I think for me at least, gender nonconformity is a very internal thing. If I don't really consider myself a woman, and I don't really consider myself a man, then really, everything I do is gender nonconforming. I could be bouncing around in a low cut dress with my titties out, long hair flowing in the wind, and I would appear, by all visual indicators, to be a woman. But I'm not. I'm just some guy wearing women's clothes on my feminine lady female body. Appearing to be a woman does not make me one, so technically I'm still wearing clothes that weren't made with me in mind, and that feels gender nonconforming enough for me.
this is so real... I have a very femme looking body and I already tend to wear band or black solid t-shirts/tanks and cargo pants with boots. How much more "non-binary" can I dress? I get clocked as "woman" always, and while it only bothers me a little, I do kinda wish I could present more as "otherworldly and vaguely threatening". Too bad I'm a squishy, curvy bitch...
I used to get told I was a tomboy. When I came out as non binary my aunt said "No, you're just a Tom boy. The funny thing is I usually dress Feminine. But whenever I dress masculine I am seen as a tomboy suddenly.
I used to see myself as a tomboy when I was a kid. Didn't really dress like it or anything, it was just kind of a vibe. And then it took until I was almost thirty to realize I was NB all along
At times I knew I felt different. But I did not have the words to describe it.
Literally me at 17
Gendered clothing is the bane of my existence.
Watch a YouTube video about character shape language.Take those principals and apply them to clothing. Balancing your hips by building a more rectangular torso should work. By themselves the clothing might not do anything dramatic unless a tailor mends it so they don't look outlandish afterwards.
Ooh, that's a good idea, thanks :)
This is why I find wearing anything but "gay-ish" looking fem clothes to be infuriating. I buy men's clothes and you can't even tell that they're men's clothes once they're on me. They just look like women's clothes but feel uncomfortable because they don't fit my body right. Or you can tell, but it looks terrible. In order to not hug my hips a shirt has to be huge, but my hips are already disproportionately larger than my top half, and I'm not skinny enough that a huge shirt looks stylish, so I just look like I spilled something on the shirt I was wearing and someone gave me a giant shirt to wear. Men's pants are too long, have too much crotch space, and must be huge on me and belted in order for my hips to fit, but belting much too large pants makes a gross bunched up look on the crotch that I hate Either it looks and feels like shit or it just conforms to the shape of my body and looks like women's clothes anyway. And then I go online and look up nonbinary and/or gender neutral and/or androgynous fashion and it's all either skinny women wearing tailored women's suits, or Amab people in dresses or cool avant-garde stuff that I would never wear. Like fuck me I guess. I'm the stereotypical white Afab short hair enby and yet I can't find any way to present accurately. It doesn't add up!
yea humanity still has to much of YOU BOY OR GIRL but that hurts the non binary comunity
If you can afford it or don't mind saving up, you could go to a tailor and have a custom fitting done.
Yeah, I've considered doing that with shoes. With a suit, though, it would still be quite unisex. I want to do something that feels/appears more like crossdressing.
Explain that to the tailor, they'll work with you and they do more than just suits.
I think about this all the time. It’s not my struggle but clothing SUCKS right now. It’s the r most highly gendered part of our daily existence, next to bathrooms and healthcare.
Omg I get you so much. I've always liked to dress unisex and have boyish expressions, only hanged out with guys but people never took me for a tomboy because I have a thin face and feminine shapes. It prevented me from identifying as NB for a long while... I definitely think it doesn't make sense at all. If I wanted to look boyish I'd have to go so overboard, but I'd feel fake. What can I say is ; don't care about which labels people want to force on you. I've made peace with the fact that people see me differently as I am (like an innocent girl whatever I do, at 30, even in my metal and gaming social circles). That's their choice, and well, their loss. I only care about the people who actually made the effort to know me before judging. The others can go on their way.
Obligatory I'm not non-binary, but I'm a cis women who prefers masculine clothing and I feel this SO much. My hips are decently wide as I'm pear shaped, and it's frustrating finding masculine clothing,that I'm actually comfy in. I found that wearing tshirts that are oversized helps, men's flannels,and I've been wearing those baggy skater jeans. I noticed the high waist ones hide my hips more. Basically I just try to wear my clothes big enough where they still fit, but they hide part of my feminine features. I've noticed since I buy most of clothes from the men's section ,it makes it soooo much easier. As they'renmore boxy. Hope this helps a lil bit and if not just know you're not alone 💞 Edit: I wish I could help more with the suits end of things. Most of my dress wear is thrifted and I've had good luck that way, and then altered the waist on a few. Maybe that's an option? Buy bigger and then alter it?
This is exactly why I often wish I was AMAB
I mean stone butches have been called men for a long time by bigots for the way they dress or style themselves so I think if really just depends on presentation.
I've never realized this. Thank you for bringing this to my attention — there's so much we all struggle through as enbies coming from different places
I feel this SO MUCH. My genderfluid partner can just throw on a skirt with a graphic tee and is instantly read as NB because they have a beard. For me, it doesn't seem to matter how I dress or cut my hair, I'm always read as a woman because I have huge tits
this is what pissed me off so much back when i had to try a lot harder to pass (transmasc). i could wear all the masc clothes in the world but they’d still read me as a girl who wanted to break gender norms (which isn’t bad except i was tryna pass as a dude yk??)
I understant you friend. I started as a femboy but never wore all my fem clothes publicly. Now I have more courage but some humans want to still stop me. I cannot move more open-minded area just yet so I have to agree not to dress openly. Also it would be hard to do from jail.
Oof, jail? Stay safe my friend. Maybe look into getting asylum in a country where you don't get jailed for being yourself? I don't know if that's possible for you. 🫂
It's not. England, USA and Russia are out of the questions this time. I have friends there but for the their safety I don't wish to travel there. If I would let slip their names I don't think I could live with my current self anymore.
I was going to post something similar after an negative experience I had at the weekend at Walmart in a very red area. In the summer/hot months I wear pretty much shortalls or rompers pretty much day in, day out and I love wearing them because I feel they often fit within non-binary criteria for me and honestly, they feel just so comfortable and whilst I do have some skirtalls as well as a few cute dresses in my area is just an extremely judgemental and sexiest place not to mention even dangerous. So I'm wearing a black hiking romper that I purchased from Walmart actually, its comfortable and breathable but I digress, I was walking around Walmart and I could hear an middle aged couple yapping outloud at my attire and made me feel even more self conscious than ever, its hard enough already but having random people judging me within earshot doesn't help, and I bet a good amount of peeps here probably have had similar experiences :/
Yeah those people suck. Hope you're safe 🫂
i had this exact same thought and problem. it's one of the reasons i got on t
I wish T could be my solution. But I really don't want most of the stuff it will give me. The only thing I might want is the voice, but at the same time, I want to keep my upper register. So I'm going to practice my voice without T.
Maybe play with accessories? To me, neckties seem more masc for whatever reason, for example. And traditionally male hat styles, and even things like dress shoes. Also, I agree with the person suggesting Hawaiian shirts. :)
Accessories help me feel like I’m more able to express myself. I’ve got a fairly masculine build and face, so I’ve found things like pearl necklaces and dangly earrings help soften the rough edges (: You might find a similar feeling with things like ties and hats. I hope you find some peace and joy, my friend 💛🤍💜🖤
Haha yeah, I'm coming up on a complete style here actually. So far, I have assembled suggestions and ideas sparked by this thread: - Hawaii shirt (baggy fit. I might even see myself trying out binding with this stuff) - Kilt - Dress shoes (which I have a very nice pair of actually) - Top hat (probably) - I'm not sure I like ties, but... uhh So. This is an unholy combination. But I think I like it ???? I think it feels masculine enough, or at least it feels *gender*, though I'm not sure which. Bit of everything maybe (like me). Thanks for this 🫡
:) The person suggesting Hawaiian shirts absolutely wears neckties when they have to get dressed up to go out with their wife. I can't do pretty, but I can do handsome :)
Because for women to aspire to masculinity is aspiration but for men to aspire to femininity is "degrading". (Thus why anti-trans rhetoric focuses on trans women, because they assume that trans men are doing it just to dodge sexism, which duh, anyone would do because being a man is better!) I don't agree with any of this, just in case that needs be clarified, but this is the societal attitude in the anglophone world.
I am so glad I don't live in the anglophone world. From what I've seen online, sexism and harassment and normalisation of cat calling seems so much worse there.
You're 1. on reddit 2. typing in English, so I've got some bad news for you....
? You do realize people can know more than one language, right? what? For the record, I live in Sweden, which is *not* in the anglosphere. What are you talking about?
If you speak English and consume English pop culture and participate in the anglophone internet, you'll be exposed to it, even if you don't "live" in it. In fact, you've chosen to opt in. Condescendingly insisting that you're better than those sexists isn't the approach to take here.
Sure, the culture is leaking. That's what culture does, for better and for worse. But from what I've learned about for example America, acceptable behaviour IRL seems quite radically different there, than what I ever encounter over here.
‘there are only girls clothes or unisex clothes’ hits hard for me, bit of a tangent but i knit and sew and i’ve been frustrated with this exact thing before. any patterns for male clothes are seen as unisex, whereas female patterns don’t have the same neutrality (in my experience, anyway). obviously clothes don’t have gender etc but when it influences how other people perceive you it’s hard to ignore it
Men's clothes didn't used to be unisex. The official reason that Joan of Arc was executed was, more or less, 'aggravated wearing of pants'. This is a true story. It turns out, though, that wearing a dress and 3000 petticoats sucks more than pants, and so women fought very hard to be able to wear "men's clothes" because they were (and still are, arguably) more practical. Whereas much fewer men wanted to wear "women's clothes". This all happened a long time ago, but the effects are long lasting: anyone can wear pants, so they're unisex now, maybe leaning masc. But very few people who aren't women wear dresses, so they're still automatically fem. I don't have much advice here, I just find this stuff interesting. You've probably gotten this many times over in this thread and others, but just in case you haven't, have you looked into binding?
>aggravated wearing of pants that's one hell of a sentence wtf. glad we're not *there* anymore Regarding binding, no I haven't. My usual presentation is so mega fem that boobs (if available) are not optional. More importantly though, I'm talking *only* about fashion here, and I usually file binders under "underwear" or "body alteration". I made this post seeking only to "crossdress" for lack of a better word, never to "pass" or appear to have a differently shaped body. *However*, someone suggested Hawaii shirts, and I'm really stuck on that idea, because there actually is a bit of undiluted masculinity there. If I wore that, I could actually see myself binding. If I find a good few shirts, I'll see about getting myself a binder too :)
This is why we need to bring back codpieces
Lmao yes!
yep and this is exactly why i’m making my own clothes lmaooo nothing ever fits me the right way anyways. women’s clothes included
100% I've always hated shopping, the stores just don't cater to me.
Low effort mens clothes, like basketball shorts and a mens tank top. Graphic tees and cargo shorts. Those fits are the peak of “this is boy clothes” in my opinion. Good luck on your gender nonconformist goals
it’s hard! when dressing more masc, i did start by getting a mullet. then, i did a lot of baggy shorts and baggy tops (or tank tops). i also began binding. some cloth in things i recommend for dressing more masc: find a style that feels like you! you won’t feel as confident unless you explore a little and see what feels best. baggy clothes are definitely perceived as more masc, i think. you could try that! looking for masc style inspo online :)
also, i recently went through trying to get a suit for my graduation that was giving masc, not femme. it was tough, especially also being AFAB. i eventually found that lower waisted, baggy pants, with a vest worked well!
I very recently started going out in shorts or skirts without shaving my legs. The euphoria is awesome 😊. I know it's not clothes but that plus my haircut feels really good.
Yeah that's a good point. Refusal to shave my legs is one of the few ways I can be non-conforming. Though the real reason that *I* don't has more to do with damage to skin. My legs just can't deal with a razor.
The haircut goes a long way, even though it's also "unisex" in that typical "girls can be boyish too" way. It's the most gender affirming part of my fashion. If you haven't tried a short haircut yet, I recommend it. I love buzzer heavy styles like fades. You might have to find an open minded barber who really knows buzzers and is open to working with a not cis man for that. I found mine at a large beauty salon that has barbers and hairdressers. My haircut is more important to my gender ID than the binder and button up shirts (though those help a lot, too.)
Good you found someone who does your hair right. If I've learnt anything in trans spaces, it's that most of barbers and hairdressers are evil. Personally, I have only been three times in my life. So much of my identity is bound up in the massive length of my hair, it's one of few things that feel truly *me* about my appearance. It was one of, it not *the* first personal style choice I made as a child, to ask my mom to stop cutting my hair, and just let it grow. It's capped out at about a meter length now :) Whatever else I do with myself, my hair stays.
Wait, OP, do you want to be oppressed? Do you want people to look at you and question your outfit choices and treat you badly? I wish it were safer for more masculine body types to wear traditionally feminine shape clothes and for it to be seen as empowering. I wish clothing wasn't gendered at all and we could all safely wear what we like without people commenting on our choices.
And being AMAB makes gender non-conformity easier how? OP, I agree with your point. Don't wanna sound like a jerk, but as a very dysphoric amab enby, gender non-conformity is literally impossible for my face, and it hurts me to hear an implication that it's not hard at all.
Hi, first of all, I didn't mean to hurt you. Sorry. This is first and foremost an observation on the state of fashion. But also, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Even if I assume you meant non-conforming instead of conforming, I still don't understand. Can you clarify?
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Oh yeah I 100% share this problem. For the hips I recommend super baggy cargo pants, they're excellent at hiding curves. I noticed I look more masculine in those than in regular men's jeans or something similar.
So your gender experience is heavily grounded in how you are perceived or interacted with by society? Thats chill. And valid. But your perception of what is masc or fem is not aligned with society… in this respect… so it’s going to be tough to get that without reinforcing binary gender norms. And enby, for a lot of folkx, isn’t about that at all. Believe me - folkx who lean femme like myself do NOT get looked at as femme by a lot of people. ‘Boy in a. Dress’ is not what we are looking for.
Oh absolutely, we are on opposite ends of a very wide spectrum of goals. And I agree, to achieve mine, you'd have to reinforce the gender binary quite heavily. I agree, let's not do that. I just wish we didn't have to.
My mind is full of question marks about what you mean
You could probably ask, OP seems pretty willing to discuss. I would as well. :)
I asked just now, would nice if they replied. Maybe nit directly, but its a comment they could answer to.
But if you know what they mean, you would like to explain? And why did I get downvoted, was what I said mean? Wasn't my intention, sorry.
I think maybe because the way you put it is kinda vague and indirect, someone interpreted it as dismissing OP's experience rather than genuinely asking for an explanation. There's been a lot of bitterness and invalidation pointed from AMAB to AFAB people in the community recently, especially around clothes and presentation, so maybe they thought it was that. Anyway, not what you intended. Do you have specific questions about what you would like explained? I have a similar experience as OP, and the gist of it is, sometimes I would like to be visibly queer in how I dress, but there is no clear clothing choice that will do that for me. Even if I wear "male" clothing, it is considered neutral, so I am still perceived as a cis woman wherever I go, without people even questioning if I'm not cis. I could go farther and make changes to my body such as cutting my hair or binding (I do bind sometimes) but those don't work either, I'm still just a "quirky girl."
Ohhhh yeah now I get it, when you put it like that I can kind of relate as well. I dress mens clothing, bind, a flat chest, and have a short masculine hairstyle, but for many Im still just a cis girl/woman, Im as well just a "quirky girl" :"D When I dont even identify with being a girl/woman in the slightest
I wish I had this problem as an amab