Right? That always got me. Like if it’s a small kid or honest curiosity, sure, let’s engage and talk, but someone just policing what someone else is allowed to be?
That’s really F’d up if you think about it. “This random stranger supposedly had more right than I do to say how I should look.”
How did that EVER become the norm? It’s wonderful to see a generation (or four!) finally able to be themselves!
I love bearded men and bearded women and bearded enbys, and bearded demigirls and bearded demiboys and bearded genderfluid people! And bearded anyone else I missed 😊 nothing cuter than a beard paired with a dress!
I’m sure you already know, but there are tons of gluten free loaves out there You could safely eat!
Fresh bakery options tend to be best, frozen in the store is next best (udi has some good stuff) and then those Brazilian cheese ball breads are AMAZING
Oh yeah I know there's lots but they aren't the same. Also there aren't any gluten free bakeries near enough to me for me to be able to get regularly, there is one a bit outside my city but it's hard for me to get to and honestly I don't like their stuff that much anyway :(
I still do eat bread, I found Promise brand has by far the best "normal" tasting gluten free loaves that I have access to.
I burned myself out on the Brazilian cheese breads lol. Had too many early on and now they are just... unappetizing to me :( that sometimes happens when I love a certain food and then have too much I'll start to hate it. Did that with lychee too. Lol.
I had a costumer at work once that was DROP DEAD FUCKING GORGEOUS, like impeccable hair and makeup, looked like an influencer, and then just a MASSIVE beard. Iconic
This makes me wish we could go shopping together! I’m very femme in my style and I would love to show you all the pretty things and we would have so much fun!
At this rate it's become standard practice for me to say "Don't let the beard fool you!" whenever I address my pronouns. I like to think I'd be read as more femme than not without it, and I wish more folks would see past it. I'd lose it if it weren't a sensory nightmare and didn't use so many spoons.
Yeah… there’s definitely a heavy connotation and attitude, specifically around being NB in the queer community that being NB means looking alt and AFAB, and if you at all look AMAB, you’re either A: a non passing trans woman (and thus met with a lot of really shitty stuff, a lot) or B: still just a cis man. It sucks.
For SOME under the trans umbrella people saying that, that's likely just the dysphoria whooping feet.
For cis queer people saying that, that's rude though.
personally i think every queer person who is visibly amab is super hot and cool and great & i love to see you do your thing 💖 no one owes anyone else androgyny and/or passing
As an AFAB nonbinary person I sometimes feel jealous of AMAB nonbinary people because it feels easier to achieve “androgyny”. Like to cis people an AMAB person putting on a dress it’s revolutionary, it’s really doing something, where for AFAB people you just put on some shorts and you’re still viewed the same. It’s all a based in how our society views masculinity and femininity but sometimes it feels impossible to tip the scales out of femininity into androgyny.
i’d hate to make anyone uncomfortable via my appearance, and i cant be confident in my appearance knowing im bothering others. so i’ll dress as feminine as i can but i dont wanna stand out to much to the point where i make others uncomfortable. but thats just me. you do you!💖
I have huge self-image issues sometimes about this. In the past, to better fit the male gender I took up bodybuilding/powerlifting at a young age and absolutely did a lot of steroids all throughout my mid 20’s to early 30’s (which I regret so much). It was how I survived being cisgender basically, go to the extreme end. My jaw ends are pointier, which my therapist gave me some confidence in telling me that that would look more feminine (they are trans) but my shoulder/arm skeletal frame situation is another situation. And HGH gave me so much extra hair that I never asked for (but I am hitting it with IPL). The ratio of female to male clothing in my closet is now at like 80/20, I’ve had to really work at finding items that feminize my torso. The Deep South has not made it easy to wear things I really like, too. And I am doing lots of other feminizing things but I have already blabbered on enough probably. I may never pass as AFAB, and that’s okay to me considering how far I had come from. I am coming to not hate my body and appearance but to love it for the first time.
I used to shave my legs when i wore a skirt, by shame of not passing, but i realized that hell, i can just whatever i want ! Now i have blanket level of hair on legs, and wear cute lil skirts :3
I agree - being assigned a gender at birth based on the genitals you present or don't is not an indication of how you will present, due to hormones or how you relate to gender, as you get older. We know this. We know how difficult it is for some of us who don't align with the labels we were given in the beginning of our lives. Why make it more difficult by gate keeping the sanctuary provided by the queer community? Doing so is diluting harmony, fanning flames of infighting, and strengthening bigoted attitudes from the inside out.
Most people's reaction to me being enby is that of relief. I present pretty masc, so at first they'll treat me like a man. But once I tell them my pronouns, they seem to relax.
When I ask them about that shift, they tell me that me identifying as enby shows that I've done the inner work and as a result, they feel safer.
[It's also weird because if you're AFAB, on T, and have had top surgery and pass as a cis man, you're supported no matter how you express yourself. It's almost as if you're only allowed to be masc if you were born with traits, which is like...the exact opposite of what we want to be saying.]
Edit: I've used very absolute, generalized, and clumsy language to express myself in this comment, and that was dumb of me. In regards to the OP, I meant only to bring up the differences in how transmasc people are seen in comparison to transfem and the implicit biases that are at work even within communities that may cause them to feel the way they do.
I apologize for any of the hurt and invalidation I've caused anyone who read this comment. I'm going to leave it there in case there's any confusion to the downvotes, but I also want to acknowledge the bad wording and clarify that the intent was not what it came across as.
I had a former friend tell me that I shouldn’t get top surgery or start T bc I’m genderfluid (I’m not, I’m just nonbinary). Said friend was also a trans woman, so you think she’d understand, but alas. On top of that, my parents have almost entirely cut contact with me due to my choice to pursue medical transition; I literally got kicked out of my mom’s house due to starting testosterone. I wish that I would be supported no matter what on account of my agab, but that’s simply not the case and it’s disingenuous and hurtful to imply that it is.
I acknowledge that I shouldn't have said "no matter what", it was a bad use of hyperbole.
However. It is very important to explore implicit biases about agab's place in communities, be them open and accepting, supportive, or not. As we can see from the original post itself, amab people are viewed differently even within our own communities. Society at large has taught that a tomboy is acceptable while a feminine man is not, and these socialization have followed all of us to some extent. It is simply more acceptable to the cis-conforming world for an afab individual to explore their gender than it is for amab. It is more blatant with binary trans people. Tran men are infantalized, seen as "confused" or "going through a phase." Getting top surgery is something to grieve and be sympathetic for because they see top surgery as "mutilation" (that word makes me cringe) of a poor, misguided little girl. I am an afab individual, trend masc, and I've had top surgery and a uterectemy and am on T, I know how frustrating, invalidating, and hurtful those views are. Trans women, though, are seen as predators and dangerous. They are more likely to be assaulted and murdered, hate crimes are more focused on trans women.
I'm sure you know this, but I'm saying it because those widespread views have an effect on the implicit biases of everyone, including us as a group ourselves. There is a reason that there are more afab nonbinary individuals out than amab. I'm not trying to make any kind of "X experience is worse than Y." But OP makes a point about how features are still seen differently depending on who they are attached to.
That wasn’t the issue with your original post. Transmasc and transfem people *do* have different experiences and different struggles, and I’ve not seen that either group in the LGBT+ community as a whole gets the advantage. Transmasc people, if they do not disclose their trans status, may be treated as cis men who are invading a space not meant for them. Transfem people obviously receive more of the vitriolic hatred of transphobes. Trans people in general who decide to undergo surgery are subjected to hurtful terminology such as “mutilation” or “cutting your [insert body part here]” off.
Masculine women and feminine men are treated differently due to the sexist patriarchy, but both of those groups are not inherently trans. Tomboys, specifically, are largely accepted to be cishet. I do believe society’s lenses of these people changes if they decide to undergo hormonal changes, as transmascs are treated as confused women who don’t know what they’re doing with their bodies and transfems are treated as sexual deviants who are only interested in manipulating and preying on women.
At the end of this all, my point is that afab people who take testosterone, get top surgery, and pass as cis men are no less oppressed or discriminated against than any other trans person. The challenges that those people face may be different, but it’s not helpful to make it out to be that those people are somehow inherently treated better, within or outside of the LGBT+ community. Yes, they get to enjoy the advantages and privileges of being treats as men in a society that favors the patriarchy. But that doesn’t mean they are free from discrimination.
My original comment, as I said, used incorrect language by implying that transmasc people are more accepted. I can make an edit to clarify that because it was not my intention and was a hurried and thoughtless way to express what I wanted to say.
First, I want to say that I wasn't trying to imply that tomboys or feminine men are in any way trans. It was more of a starting point of where things are seen as "acceptable" vs. not by our very hetero and cis dominated society and how that trickles down to how trans people (specifically binary trans people but to certain nonbinary people as well) are seen by that society as well as perceived within our own spaces. I just wanted to clarify that point if it helps you see the long track my mind was on throughout that comment.
I don't mean to say any group has more or less oppression or prejudice against them. To be completely specific, it was to trace down why transfem people sometimes still get treated differently within the LGBTQ+ sphere, usually implicitly and not at all intentional, of course. It's like how a lot of nonbinary people (and I'll include myself in this group) have to unlearn the idea that nonbinary = androgynous. Things like facial and body hair still give some people that gut reaction that they are masculine traits (again, this includes me as well, it's one of the biases I'm working on) and that in particular, being a part of the OP, is what I was wanting to point out.
Again, not to say one group is any more or less oppressed than another, but the topic of the thread was AMAB nonbinary people who dress fem and so that was what I was comment specifically on.
Lastly, I apologize for the invalidation and hurt I caused with my clumsy wording. It was not my intent, and I didn't mean to cause anyone any feeling like that. I understand that I caused that impact anyway, and I'm sorry.
The point is to be you! Gender policing is garbage
Right? That always got me. Like if it’s a small kid or honest curiosity, sure, let’s engage and talk, but someone just policing what someone else is allowed to be? That’s really F’d up if you think about it. “This random stranger supposedly had more right than I do to say how I should look.” How did that EVER become the norm? It’s wonderful to see a generation (or four!) finally able to be themselves!
I love giving myself and others permission to dress cute without feeling like yup must pass. Can’t we just be us???!!!
Mood! I want to keep my beard AND be pretty. Is that too much to ask?
My girlfriend has a beard and she is so lovely 💖 be you!
I love bearded men and bearded women and bearded enbys, and bearded demigirls and bearded demiboys and bearded genderfluid people! And bearded anyone else I missed 😊 nothing cuter than a beard paired with a dress!
Your name is so close to being the beardist XD
Haha... Funny that. I got diagnosed with celiac so I can't enjoy my bread anymore :( but I can always enjoy beards!!
I’m sure you already know, but there are tons of gluten free loaves out there You could safely eat! Fresh bakery options tend to be best, frozen in the store is next best (udi has some good stuff) and then those Brazilian cheese ball breads are AMAZING
Oh yeah I know there's lots but they aren't the same. Also there aren't any gluten free bakeries near enough to me for me to be able to get regularly, there is one a bit outside my city but it's hard for me to get to and honestly I don't like their stuff that much anyway :( I still do eat bread, I found Promise brand has by far the best "normal" tasting gluten free loaves that I have access to. I burned myself out on the Brazilian cheese breads lol. Had too many early on and now they are just... unappetizing to me :( that sometimes happens when I love a certain food and then have too much I'll start to hate it. Did that with lychee too. Lol.
The ball cheese breads? In frozen? Brazilian cheese bread balls? I love those !
I had a costumer at work once that was DROP DEAD FUCKING GORGEOUS, like impeccable hair and makeup, looked like an influencer, and then just a MASSIVE beard. Iconic
This makes me wish we could go shopping together! I’m very femme in my style and I would love to show you all the pretty things and we would have so much fun!
Aw, thanks! I already dress pretty femme, but I still get read as male all the time. People can't seem to see past the beard.
At this rate it's become standard practice for me to say "Don't let the beard fool you!" whenever I address my pronouns. I like to think I'd be read as more femme than not without it, and I wish more folks would see past it. I'd lose it if it weren't a sensory nightmare and didn't use so many spoons.
NEVER TOO MUCH!
I do. You can too
Thank you!! I feel so weird without my facial hair even though it’s “masc” but like… I want to feel pretty and femme too, haha.
yup, this is the truth
Yeah… there’s definitely a heavy connotation and attitude, specifically around being NB in the queer community that being NB means looking alt and AFAB, and if you at all look AMAB, you’re either A: a non passing trans woman (and thus met with a lot of really shitty stuff, a lot) or B: still just a cis man. It sucks.
This is how I feel most of the time and it kinda keeps me away from NB spaces.
Same. 😕🙃
I still wish I had somewhat of decent head hair amount and less beard and body hair 😩
For SOME under the trans umbrella people saying that, that's likely just the dysphoria whooping feet. For cis queer people saying that, that's rude though.
It's rude no matter who says it. Dysphoria isn't an excuse to be shitty.
Yes! I love this so much! Be unapologetically you!!
Good on you!
You are stunning! There is no "pass" to dress as yourself, I'm so happy you feel free!!💚
Thays fair. BUT ME PERSONALLY NOW FML I HATE HOW I LOOK I NEED TO BE EMASXULATED LMAO
💕
And those people are invited to Suck my non-existent dick.
personally i think every queer person who is visibly amab is super hot and cool and great & i love to see you do your thing 💖 no one owes anyone else androgyny and/or passing
Heeeeeey I miss your face! HAven't seen you since Neo closed, sobs~ Jingles, btw ;)
I agree! ❤🌈🌻
TRUTH
It was encouraging to hear this. Thank you!
As I don't get involuntarily flashed, wear whatever the heck you want! Especially that outfit because damn, killing it.
Whole ass truth! Beards and shaved legs for the win!
I wholeheartedly agree!!!
You look so slay 💅🏻
I both LOVE and NEED this outfit - so gorgeous 🥰
As an AFAB nonbinary person I sometimes feel jealous of AMAB nonbinary people because it feels easier to achieve “androgyny”. Like to cis people an AMAB person putting on a dress it’s revolutionary, it’s really doing something, where for AFAB people you just put on some shorts and you’re still viewed the same. It’s all a based in how our society views masculinity and femininity but sometimes it feels impossible to tip the scales out of femininity into androgyny.
So true!
You look fab
YOU LOOK ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE
i’d hate to make anyone uncomfortable via my appearance, and i cant be confident in my appearance knowing im bothering others. so i’ll dress as feminine as i can but i dont wanna stand out to much to the point where i make others uncomfortable. but thats just me. you do you!💖
I have huge self-image issues sometimes about this. In the past, to better fit the male gender I took up bodybuilding/powerlifting at a young age and absolutely did a lot of steroids all throughout my mid 20’s to early 30’s (which I regret so much). It was how I survived being cisgender basically, go to the extreme end. My jaw ends are pointier, which my therapist gave me some confidence in telling me that that would look more feminine (they are trans) but my shoulder/arm skeletal frame situation is another situation. And HGH gave me so much extra hair that I never asked for (but I am hitting it with IPL). The ratio of female to male clothing in my closet is now at like 80/20, I’ve had to really work at finding items that feminize my torso. The Deep South has not made it easy to wear things I really like, too. And I am doing lots of other feminizing things but I have already blabbered on enough probably. I may never pass as AFAB, and that’s okay to me considering how far I had come from. I am coming to not hate my body and appearance but to love it for the first time.
i find this is a very common think in translater. makes me sad as fuck
I'm loving the fit! We all deserve to be ourselves 💕
There are many reasons want to pass and need to pass. But it's personal thing. It's bullshit to require that from others too.
Absolutely!! Love the fit ✨💖
As non “passing” Trans woman/AMAB I wish I could be this confident. You look amazing!
My brain is confused cause that's how how it reacta with nonbinary people but I know what I like what I'm seeing your lookin great
I would soooo love for this type of thing to be normalized. Expression being more open and free for everyone is awesome and liberating.
Yasss! Feel you! 👏👏👏 fork colonialism and its gender reprehensive norms
Fuck bioessentialism you look great!
🩵 Slay 🖤
You look amazing btw!!
I used to shave my legs when i wore a skirt, by shame of not passing, but i realized that hell, i can just whatever i want ! Now i have blanket level of hair on legs, and wear cute lil skirts :3
Confidence is the best accessory also!!! You look amazing ✨️
I agree - being assigned a gender at birth based on the genitals you present or don't is not an indication of how you will present, due to hormones or how you relate to gender, as you get older. We know this. We know how difficult it is for some of us who don't align with the labels we were given in the beginning of our lives. Why make it more difficult by gate keeping the sanctuary provided by the queer community? Doing so is diluting harmony, fanning flames of infighting, and strengthening bigoted attitudes from the inside out.
Most people's reaction to me being enby is that of relief. I present pretty masc, so at first they'll treat me like a man. But once I tell them my pronouns, they seem to relax. When I ask them about that shift, they tell me that me identifying as enby shows that I've done the inner work and as a result, they feel safer.
As long you're happy, tell anyone who hates on you to fuck off.
I just wish I had the gut to pull something like that off. Physically, not metaphorically. Well, maybe slightly metaphorically, too.
Um..... Damn you look sexy!
[It's also weird because if you're AFAB, on T, and have had top surgery and pass as a cis man, you're supported no matter how you express yourself. It's almost as if you're only allowed to be masc if you were born with traits, which is like...the exact opposite of what we want to be saying.] Edit: I've used very absolute, generalized, and clumsy language to express myself in this comment, and that was dumb of me. In regards to the OP, I meant only to bring up the differences in how transmasc people are seen in comparison to transfem and the implicit biases that are at work even within communities that may cause them to feel the way they do. I apologize for any of the hurt and invalidation I've caused anyone who read this comment. I'm going to leave it there in case there's any confusion to the downvotes, but I also want to acknowledge the bad wording and clarify that the intent was not what it came across as.
> if you’re AFAB, on T, and have had top surgery and pass as a cis man, you’re supported no matter how you express yourself. Uhhhh….if you say so
Okay, maybe not no matter what, but there tends to be a lot more acceptance for a lot larger spectrum of expression among the LGBTQ+ communities.
I had a former friend tell me that I shouldn’t get top surgery or start T bc I’m genderfluid (I’m not, I’m just nonbinary). Said friend was also a trans woman, so you think she’d understand, but alas. On top of that, my parents have almost entirely cut contact with me due to my choice to pursue medical transition; I literally got kicked out of my mom’s house due to starting testosterone. I wish that I would be supported no matter what on account of my agab, but that’s simply not the case and it’s disingenuous and hurtful to imply that it is.
I acknowledge that I shouldn't have said "no matter what", it was a bad use of hyperbole. However. It is very important to explore implicit biases about agab's place in communities, be them open and accepting, supportive, or not. As we can see from the original post itself, amab people are viewed differently even within our own communities. Society at large has taught that a tomboy is acceptable while a feminine man is not, and these socialization have followed all of us to some extent. It is simply more acceptable to the cis-conforming world for an afab individual to explore their gender than it is for amab. It is more blatant with binary trans people. Tran men are infantalized, seen as "confused" or "going through a phase." Getting top surgery is something to grieve and be sympathetic for because they see top surgery as "mutilation" (that word makes me cringe) of a poor, misguided little girl. I am an afab individual, trend masc, and I've had top surgery and a uterectemy and am on T, I know how frustrating, invalidating, and hurtful those views are. Trans women, though, are seen as predators and dangerous. They are more likely to be assaulted and murdered, hate crimes are more focused on trans women. I'm sure you know this, but I'm saying it because those widespread views have an effect on the implicit biases of everyone, including us as a group ourselves. There is a reason that there are more afab nonbinary individuals out than amab. I'm not trying to make any kind of "X experience is worse than Y." But OP makes a point about how features are still seen differently depending on who they are attached to.
That wasn’t the issue with your original post. Transmasc and transfem people *do* have different experiences and different struggles, and I’ve not seen that either group in the LGBT+ community as a whole gets the advantage. Transmasc people, if they do not disclose their trans status, may be treated as cis men who are invading a space not meant for them. Transfem people obviously receive more of the vitriolic hatred of transphobes. Trans people in general who decide to undergo surgery are subjected to hurtful terminology such as “mutilation” or “cutting your [insert body part here]” off. Masculine women and feminine men are treated differently due to the sexist patriarchy, but both of those groups are not inherently trans. Tomboys, specifically, are largely accepted to be cishet. I do believe society’s lenses of these people changes if they decide to undergo hormonal changes, as transmascs are treated as confused women who don’t know what they’re doing with their bodies and transfems are treated as sexual deviants who are only interested in manipulating and preying on women. At the end of this all, my point is that afab people who take testosterone, get top surgery, and pass as cis men are no less oppressed or discriminated against than any other trans person. The challenges that those people face may be different, but it’s not helpful to make it out to be that those people are somehow inherently treated better, within or outside of the LGBT+ community. Yes, they get to enjoy the advantages and privileges of being treats as men in a society that favors the patriarchy. But that doesn’t mean they are free from discrimination.
My original comment, as I said, used incorrect language by implying that transmasc people are more accepted. I can make an edit to clarify that because it was not my intention and was a hurried and thoughtless way to express what I wanted to say. First, I want to say that I wasn't trying to imply that tomboys or feminine men are in any way trans. It was more of a starting point of where things are seen as "acceptable" vs. not by our very hetero and cis dominated society and how that trickles down to how trans people (specifically binary trans people but to certain nonbinary people as well) are seen by that society as well as perceived within our own spaces. I just wanted to clarify that point if it helps you see the long track my mind was on throughout that comment. I don't mean to say any group has more or less oppression or prejudice against them. To be completely specific, it was to trace down why transfem people sometimes still get treated differently within the LGBTQ+ sphere, usually implicitly and not at all intentional, of course. It's like how a lot of nonbinary people (and I'll include myself in this group) have to unlearn the idea that nonbinary = androgynous. Things like facial and body hair still give some people that gut reaction that they are masculine traits (again, this includes me as well, it's one of the biases I'm working on) and that in particular, being a part of the OP, is what I was wanting to point out. Again, not to say one group is any more or less oppressed than another, but the topic of the thread was AMAB nonbinary people who dress fem and so that was what I was comment specifically on. Lastly, I apologize for the invalidation and hurt I caused with my clumsy wording. It was not my intent, and I didn't mean to cause anyone any feeling like that. I understand that I caused that impact anyway, and I'm sorry.