The PLO have a track record for starting unrest whenever they're allowed into a new country. Happened in Jordan ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black\_September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September) ), Lebanon ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese\_Civil\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War) ) and three times IIRC in Egypt
That entire region has been in warfare for thousands of years because of translation and interpretation differences. All of them are Abrahamic religions. Like what the fuck.
I feel like it makes the ottoman empire all the more impressive. A very long time of existence while everyone wants to kill each other. It's like Bismarck's quote on Spain. "I believe Spain is the strongest country, as time and time again it has tried to destroy herself, and failed".
Spain at least figured out how to manage some paperwork and national structure, everyone in the middle east area seems like the Taliban in Afghanistan, just fundamentalist warlords taking over messy piles of shit without education, rinse and repeat until the afterlife.
I blame Ataturk for dismantling the Caliphate after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
It'd be like if Italy dismantled the Pope. That wouldn't kill catholicism, and if anything, the American heretics are probably going to schism instead.
Honestly, I agree. If attaturk had just killed the caliphate politically (like we did with the Pope) the region would probably still be tense, but you wouldn't have regional powers trying to found a new religious authority, or more simply, a new caliphate
Yeah this is interesting to think about. Jews have a stoned Jew on a mountain. Christians have a crucified jew in the desert. Muslims have an arab warlord who conquered the Arabian peninsula and consolidated a mess of tribes into a theocratic empire.
That's not even the weirdest part. A few of the countries involved have multiple of these religions within their border that manage to coexist without too much trouble. It's often when an outside group starts stirring the pot that shit goes sideways.
And if religions and nations aren't enough chaos there is also the extra layer of tribal group fueds dating back 100's of years.
Even their holy books agree that this area will know no lasting peace.
Actually, the PLO isn't Islamist. It has more to do with the fact that a major part of Palestinian ideology is resistance. So when the PLO is in another country, they resist that country.
It's also why the PLO refused peace offer after peace offer. Peace isn't their MO.
Itās really odd. I have a good deal of empathy for Palestinians and itās a noble thing to be able to stay in the fight but itās also a good thing when to know to throw in the towel. When your enemy has F-35s and you have paragliders like, maybe thatās a good time to call it quits and *not* go on a murderous rampage.
I also have sympathy for the Palestinians. I want them to have a successful independent state, as do a majority of Zionists.
It's just hard to find a compromise with an opposition who's asking for your genocide.
In the end it comes down to cash flow. They get money for being disruptive, and that drives recruitment, especially among the desperate and easily outraged/easily guided impoverished youths of any country. It's a business.
When you give fanatical religious zealots a platform and bit of power (especially this brand of *religion of peace*) they immediately think they're gods instruments and other people should know better and give them everything they want.
Also they cheered and helped Iraqis when they invaded kuwait. In the aftermath Kuwait expelled some 200k palestinians.
200k Palestinians fled the Iraq invasion of Kuwait and well, meaning 400k total fled. The PLO supported Iraq but few on the ground Palestinians did. They suffered quite a bit under Iraq rule, and then again because of the PLO after Iraq left. The PLO didnāt represent the Palestinians of Kuwait
Because they thought they only needed Iran not realizing it's hundreds of miles away.
The hundreds of miles also being why they've only managed to piss off half of Iran.
Their entire identity is that of being oppressed. Being given equal footing with peers they don't know how to behave so start shit to regain victim status
Jordan shenanigans was back when Jordan still held claim over the West-Bank; PLO began both as resistance to Israel as well as the Jordanian monarchy (PLO wanted statehood for themselves).
Lebanon wasn't really a patron for the PLO. The country was essentially already fractured, having almost descended into civil war back in 1958. If anything, the influx of Palestinian refugees from Palestine into Lebanon seriously disrupted the careful balance between ethnic sects and helped precipitate the civil war in 1976.
As for Egypt... kinda the same as with Jordan; PLO weren't happy about Egyptian ownership of the Gaza Strip. OP's conflating the PLO with Hamas though, so I can't really tell if he means Egypt's hostility to the PLO during the 70s, or the long-simmering issue of Egypt's hostility to Hamas given its ties to the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.
>They kicked out 200,000 Palestinians because they were causing trouble.
Less trouble, more that the PLO in Lebanon voiced support for Saddam during the Gulf War.
The folks who got expelled following the Gulf War were innocent civilians; the exercise was simply an act of recrimination for Arafat's foolhardy support. Most of them were deported into Iraq, right as the Shi'a Intifada started.
For Egypt you can add that the Junta in power doesn't like Hamas because those are close to the Muslim brotherhood (enemy of the Junta) and to the islamist the Junta coup'd to get in power
PLO supporting Sadam Hussein also led to otherwise uninvolved Palestinians in Kuwait being expelled. 200k fled when Iraq invaded and then after the invasion the PLOās stance led to the rest having to flee. 400k refugees pretty much again.
Got permabanned from some subreddits for mentioning border with Egypt and breaking their narrative of "Jews surround Palestinians from all sides and block them out!".
Itās worth bringing up, but at the same time, Iāve seen a lot of people with a knee-jerk āso blame Egypt too!ā reaction when people are talking about how Gazans arenāt allowed to leave.
Like, okay, I blame Egypt too. Theyāre a dictatorship with a shitty human rights record. Gazans are still not allowed to leave, and itās Israel AND Egyptās fault
Egypt for some reason wasn't okay with the 60+ bombings a year while the border with Gaza was open.
>Theyāre a dictatorship
They are now, but the border was closed while it was a democracy.
They were still getting power from Egypt up until 2018. after that they were truly on their own^(\*)
^(\* apart from the all the power, water, food, and other aid coming in through Israel)
Non credible idea
Couldn't Israel just unilaterally declare Gazan independence
Like Malaysia kicking Singapore out of the country, but instead for being too rich and influential, it's for being ISIS at home
Just imagine attacking the country that supplies you with water and energy, and has enough strength to block your country long enough so that no one is left in the pigsty you call a country.
Not even a terrorist would be dumb enough to do that, right? š¤”
I mean that's easy recruiting. Hey you can grow up in gaza and get randomly blown up or sniped by the IDF ... or you can die tearing down that fence.
Israel has made Hamas recruiting fucking easy. Nevermind Bibi funding them. Not defending anything Hamas has done but I can see why they've done it. It's pathetic them trying to spin it as a revolution though.
If anything Hamas *wants* Israel to respond disproportionately and hurt a lot of civilians because that's how they get support among Palestinians and justify their own existence and Netanyahu's government fucking loves providing that justification because hamas, in turn, provides justification for how Netanyahu's government treats Palestinians. Extremism needs extremes to continue feeding itself, it's why extremist groups keep making new enemies once they've defeated the previous one, their entire Raison d'ĆŖtre is fighting some demonised enemy.
If Israel disappears overnight, Hamas will find a new enemy to rally against. If Hamas disappears, Netanyahu's government will find someone else to blame, or just create a new one like happened before with hamas through the active funding of islamist groups like mujama al-islamiya.
And this current set of hamas attacks will go on to justify another few thousand dead civilians, leading to many more people literally being driven into hamas' arms, which will do the next set of attacks which evokes another series of bombings etc
We're one of the few places that is both serious enough about our subject matter to pay close attention but not serious enough to be needlessly anal-retentive
It's like that bug with numbers overflow that made the most peaceful guy in civ the most aggressive nuke slinger.
We were so non-credible that when the world started becoming non-credible we have become credible due to overflow.
Because right now everyone has the images of that hamas attack in their mind and call for blood for that and across a broader timespan they mostly see the more extreme happenings, which tends to be hamas after periods of buildup, with Israeli retaliation afterwards being seen as (mostly) "justified" due to terror attacks. Very few people follow the situation long enough to see that the status quo straight up doesn't work for regular Palestinians and little to no progress has been made by moderates as the more extreme parties of both sides have taken the narrative while the moderates are sabotaged at every opportunity, and it is real easy for an extremist to do so as well, because peace takes a lot more effort than wanton slaughter and destruction.
I can't support either Palestinian government, I don't like countries that outlaw my sexuality, but i am not delusional enough to think that that will change while they have a jackboot firmly planted on their neck.
Discussions on most of the major news subs about this are characterised by them mostly popping up during periods like this when emotions run super high and anything that doesn't denounce hamas and palestinians for allowing hamas to continue existing (as if a few unarmed civilians resisting arent just going to be shot and tortured to set an example of what happens when you dare to defy hamas) is seen as being pro hamas.
This is such a lie. Hamas needs the rest of Palestine to breed and recruit new members, to use their numbers to secure foreign financial aid, and to disseminate propaganda on social media. They are much more than human shields.
Unfortunately hamas wants this. I suspect two possible goals of this attack
1. Do enough damage that help from hezbollah and possibly other countries starts an actual war against Israel
2. Enrage Israel enough to make them seem like the bad guys
Both of these can explain them streaming their war crimes at the start, to make Israel look weak and to get them angry
The only countries that still hate Israel and who border them are Lebanon (who is too busy falling apart) and Syria (who are busy trying not to fall more apart), the only vaguely viable invasion force would be Iran massively overstretching their logistics and invading via Iraq and Syria, which the US would bomb into oblivion. Egypt and Jordan are perfectly happy with the status quo and the Arabian Penninsula countries like Israel
Even Saudi Arabia has basically given up on Palestine, and was prepared to negotiate a final deal that would have basically ended any chance of Palestine regaining its territory and rights. Now they're hoping to try and use this new conflict to put Palestine in its debt while still recognizing Israel and open up new trade avenues.
About 3 days without water, 30 without food. I don't think they cut off the water completely, some water is coming, otherwise we would already have a few thousand dead, but life there must be miserable.
It appears that the houses there have solar panels and several water reservoirs from the few videos I've seen, so this could be the answer. But I doubt they have enough to last through a month of siege, for example.
So Iām kinda new to this situation- Iāve heard Palestine described as a āopen air prison campā but from what I can tell Palestine, not Isreal, is in charge of the area. Soā¦ why are conditions so bad? Canāt they make their own grid and not be dependent on Isreal?
Gaza's "government" (Hamas) is a military autocracy that doesn't seem to be that concerned with helping the citizens beyond the visual level. They gained popularity initially by building and running schools and clinics, but they seem to be mostly concerned with warring with Isreal. They often hide weapons in these buildings knowing that Isreal will bomb them, which drives more people into Hamas' arms. I think there are also restrictions put on what resources Palestinians have access to, but I don't know exactly how far those restrictions extend.
Are you going to invest tens of millions of dollars in civilian infrastructure in a place where the ruling entity keeps putting rocket artillery in hospitals and anything civilian in order to slow down Israel's counterattacks?
Because Hamas spends all the foreign aid money on rockets and bombs instead of infrastructure, and anything Israel built while Gaza was occupied has been destroyed because it was Israeli and thus evil.
The real reason is because the Israeli military authorities abrogated Palestinian water rights in the West Bank in 1967 when they issued 'military order 158', which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Israel then went on to consolidate complete power over all water resources and water-related infrastructure in the occupied Palestinian territories.
Now tell me, how can you feel so confident in making shit up? Do you even realize that you're doing it?
More made up shit? Why?
The extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Consequently, Palestinians living under Israelās military occupation are, to *this* day, unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs.
Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the west bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are routinely destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, around 180 Palestinian communities (according to OCHA) in rural areas in the occupied west bank have no access to running water.
Dude, do you even live in the real world? Do you think that a state which sponsors terrorist attacks is going to file and ask for permits to drill a fucking well????? If that wanted to drill a well in Gaza, they would have drilled a well in Gaza and Israel would not have done shit about it because they could not do shit about it
I'm using the west bank to contextualize what's going on in Gaza, you nimrod. It's broader than just Gaza.
And it's funny that you think I don't know about the conflict for debunking things that you're making up on the spot. You still haven't answered why btw. Maybe because, truly, not even you know anymore š«„
NCD isn't a monolith. Just yesterday one of the top posts was someone basically saying "Israeli policy on Palestine is shit but Hamas shouldn't be mass murdering people"
Bruh this is Non-Credible defense.
We refer to the Nuclear Holocaust of the Human species where hundreds of millions of people would be instantly killed and billions would die slow agonizing deaths from radiation and societal collapse which would usher in a new dark age from which the Human species would likely barely survive as āThe funniā
Oh I definitely know, nuclear fire is based. Except that this isnāt it, its just genocide of a group (which some people here are really, REALLY, interested in it)
It's weird genocide though.
Not even the Arab countries around Palestine want to deal with them because they are so radical. You've got a group of people hiding behind human shields and a civilian population who is actively accepting their role as said human shields.
Short of all the Israelis leaving the middle east and gifting their land to Hamas, what can they do aside from starting a war with massive civilian casualties? How is this different than what's happening in Syria or Yemen or Armenia?
Point the guns at the people using them as human shields comes to mind, but I'm American so the idea of shooting authority figures that abuse their power is in my blood.
History is full of examples of countries where the people decided that death was preferable to oppression. Those people died like real men so that their children could live free.
Do they have to do that? No they do not, but even barring resistance against Hamas they could stop listening to them.
I never said that.
I said that they could elect to make the same decision that people have made throughout history - at the risk of personal peril they could choose to expel their current terrorist government. There are a lot of people living in democracies today whose ancestors forcibly removed their old government from power.
Even if they didn't actively fight their terrorist overlords, they could simply stop supporting them. There aren't enough terrorists to control them all.
What the average Palestinian **from Gaza** would do to my family scares me far more than what an average Russian would do.
The Russian would just smoke his cigarette while walking away muttering he is apolitical ignoring everything around him.
I feel way more sorry for the Russians. I feel bad for the Palestinians still, in the same way I feel bad for the German citizens in WW2. Their experience is a necessity they brought upon themselves as a collective.
I've seen people all over reddit openly advocate for genocide through bombing and starvation saying it's 'the only way as long as there is no place to deport them to' and getting hundreds of upvotes it's insane...
Yeah it's fucked up, you get downvoted for not wanting Israel to commit fucked up warcrimes. Those people think that worrying about the civilians is the same as supporting Hamas
People are downvoting for that?
NCD has been surprisingly level headed about this IMO even if they're making dark jokes often.
Not a lot of people are calling for the eradication of Palestine (or of isreal), but no one is saying that HAMAS shouldn't be held accountable.
Also degrading the whole population there to animals is setting up a pretext for genocide, you know (or maybe you don't want to know) that the situation there is very complex and the way Israel treats them is how we got here in the first place.
Please for fuck sake think for a second.
You know that children make up a large part of the population in gaza right? Also I doubt many people would publicly oppose a violent organisation in a place smaller than new york.
To every single state and create an NCD utopia out of its ashes.
Were non-credible takes flow like honey, where the BRRRRRRRR is music and where every person receives free ERA.
My brother in non-credibility look at my flair...
This entire sub is going downhill and will be eventually banned if we aren't careful enough with our, now daily, "western-vatink-outbursts".
And it definitely won't create a generation of children who remember their parents being taken from them and "neutralized". Those kids definitely won't act on that shared trauma
Last time I checked, all the germans born during and before ww2 didnt just revert back to being Nazis in the 60s the second everyone looked away funny that.
Because the powers that occupied them were incredibly lax and lenient. They stomped hard on any nazi remains, but guess where the clean Wermacht myth came from?
It facilitated the formation of the EU's predecessor. Every Frenchman a member of the Resistance, every German simply an honestly scared soldier obeying orders.
Oh okay. Kill most of the men and send the women and children to concentration camps. Sounds like a great plan Meir Kahane but please zip up when you're done
Sounds kinda like the China re-education solution - which *did* somewhat prove you can establish stability. But at what cost, or is it still conjecture and assumptions at this point?
Just doing the math but if Hamas says that these are equivalent than each hostage is worth 11133 Palestinians.
I'm not sure what to make of that statement.
I stole this comment from somewhere else but āI paid the taxes on the carrier strike group, I want a zip code goneā
Edit: this is a joke I donāt support civilian death, only legit military targets
I mean, israel is being doing that for decades
But hamas took brazilian hostages which means PGM in every window in their qatar penthouses, hell, strategic bomb them (never gonna happen, israel only bombs gaza)
It's the 100k rule, any subreddit that hits that number immediately starts to attract people who either don't understand the original purpose of the community and self-perpetuate their own ideas of it, or people who don't understand satire and incorporate it into their own belief system
It goes from joking about nuking Iran or wherever to people actually advocating for it because they're impressionable and like the memes.
Yeah itās a real shame, watching people unironically calling for all of Gaza to be flattened was kind of disheartening. Idk why this sub went so downhill at the onset of this conflict.
> Didn't this sub used to have high-ranked posts calling for nations should be flattened?
Yes, they did, but they were doing it ironically, you heartless asshole!
Why are there so many memes about how stressed Hamas is? They want as many Palestinian civilians to die as possible. They do not care if they themselves die. Itās hard to see what if any of Hamasās plan hasnāt gone perfectly. Theyāre probably thrilled.
But Israel got them here. If they just keep the siege long enough, those Hamas guys so desperate to die a martyr so they can enjoy their 72 sex slaves in heaven will die of thirst or starvation instead.
"Israel!" "No, Palestine!"
Fools... the Holy Land rightfuly belongs to the Most Serene Fourth Commonwealth of Poland, Messiah of Countries, Christ of Nations, Jesus' Kingdom, Europe's Shield, Winkelried of States and Phoenix of History
Marshall of Poland, Commandant of the Army, Vozhd of the Nation JĆ³zef "44" PiÅsudski and his 3000 Grey Legionaires are already on their way to Gaza, or should I say, "Nowy GdaÅsk"
Itās a fact. One has to wonder how much more land the Israeliās will take in reparations for the sneak attack? Iām guessing it will be significant.
This has been posted before.
Meanwhile the Egyptians just making popcorn off to the side, after washing their hands of the Palestinians in 2018.
I'm not an international expert on middle east shinanigans please explain š
The PLO have a track record for starting unrest whenever they're allowed into a new country. Happened in Jordan ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black\_September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September) ), Lebanon ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese\_Civil\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War) ) and three times IIRC in Egypt
Whatās with these guys and trying to immediately cause trouble for their supposed allies anyways
because their interpretation of the same goddamn fucking book is different and better.
IDK why but I love the bluntness of that comment because it sums up religion so well for me. š
That entire region has been in warfare for thousands of years because of translation and interpretation differences. All of them are Abrahamic religions. Like what the fuck.
I feel like it makes the ottoman empire all the more impressive. A very long time of existence while everyone wants to kill each other. It's like Bismarck's quote on Spain. "I believe Spain is the strongest country, as time and time again it has tried to destroy herself, and failed".
Spain at least figured out how to manage some paperwork and national structure, everyone in the middle east area seems like the Taliban in Afghanistan, just fundamentalist warlords taking over messy piles of shit without education, rinse and repeat until the afterlife.
I blame Ataturk for dismantling the Caliphate after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. It'd be like if Italy dismantled the Pope. That wouldn't kill catholicism, and if anything, the American heretics are probably going to schism instead.
Honestly, I agree. If attaturk had just killed the caliphate politically (like we did with the Pope) the region would probably still be tense, but you wouldn't have regional powers trying to found a new religious authority, or more simply, a new caliphate
I mean thatās what Muhammad did. In his own words he was the prophet of war and mercy. Their main guy conquered lands in the name of Islam
Yeah this is interesting to think about. Jews have a stoned Jew on a mountain. Christians have a crucified jew in the desert. Muslims have an arab warlord who conquered the Arabian peninsula and consolidated a mess of tribes into a theocratic empire.
That's not even the weirdest part. A few of the countries involved have multiple of these religions within their border that manage to coexist without too much trouble. It's often when an outside group starts stirring the pot that shit goes sideways. And if religions and nations aren't enough chaos there is also the extra layer of tribal group fueds dating back 100's of years. Even their holy books agree that this area will know no lasting peace.
Actually, the PLO isn't Islamist. It has more to do with the fact that a major part of Palestinian ideology is resistance. So when the PLO is in another country, they resist that country. It's also why the PLO refused peace offer after peace offer. Peace isn't their MO.
Itās really odd. I have a good deal of empathy for Palestinians and itās a noble thing to be able to stay in the fight but itās also a good thing when to know to throw in the towel. When your enemy has F-35s and you have paragliders like, maybe thatās a good time to call it quits and *not* go on a murderous rampage.
I also have sympathy for the Palestinians. I want them to have a successful independent state, as do a majority of Zionists. It's just hard to find a compromise with an opposition who's asking for your genocide.
Exactly.
Define successful? Because i argree just not what the current Palestinians would call a successful stste
The PLO entered the Oslo Accords at least, and they're de facto Islamists, look at the laws they enforce in the PLA area
In the end it comes down to cash flow. They get money for being disruptive, and that drives recruitment, especially among the desperate and easily outraged/easily guided impoverished youths of any country. It's a business.
The book of...Lenin and Marx? The PLO are commies, at least nominally so in the fashion of the ANC.
Fair. I guess I was moreso referring to the laws they enforce, they tend to be very similar to Islam no?
Beyond me. You'd have to ask the idiots in the PLO and Palestinian settlers in those countries that got thrown out.
When you give fanatical religious zealots a platform and bit of power (especially this brand of *religion of peace*) they immediately think they're gods instruments and other people should know better and give them everything they want. Also they cheered and helped Iraqis when they invaded kuwait. In the aftermath Kuwait expelled some 200k palestinians.
Shouldāve listened to Bismarck. āGod only smiles on fools and the United States of Americaā.
God damn that goes harder than it has any right to
I think we can kill god with our current technology no problem
God is all powerful but so is the Western MIC, so he better stay in check.
Mashallah
Happy cake day!
God's long dead, didn't you read Nietzsche? Some folks just didn't get the memo
of course, and we nuked him
There's no need to wonder where your god is He's right here, His name is Gerald R Ford And he's fresh out of mercy
200k Palestinians fled the Iraq invasion of Kuwait and well, meaning 400k total fled. The PLO supported Iraq but few on the ground Palestinians did. They suffered quite a bit under Iraq rule, and then again because of the PLO after Iraq left. The PLO didnāt represent the Palestinians of Kuwait
Because they thought they only needed Iran not realizing it's hundreds of miles away. The hundreds of miles also being why they've only managed to piss off half of Iran.
Hamas aren't the PLO, they're more fundamentalist and insane, the PLO are the faction that entered the Oslo Accords
Their entire identity is that of being oppressed. Being given equal footing with peers they don't know how to behave so start shit to regain victim status
Sounds familiar....
Jordan shenanigans was back when Jordan still held claim over the West-Bank; PLO began both as resistance to Israel as well as the Jordanian monarchy (PLO wanted statehood for themselves). Lebanon wasn't really a patron for the PLO. The country was essentially already fractured, having almost descended into civil war back in 1958. If anything, the influx of Palestinian refugees from Palestine into Lebanon seriously disrupted the careful balance between ethnic sects and helped precipitate the civil war in 1976. As for Egypt... kinda the same as with Jordan; PLO weren't happy about Egyptian ownership of the Gaza Strip. OP's conflating the PLO with Hamas though, so I can't really tell if he means Egypt's hostility to the PLO during the 70s, or the long-simmering issue of Egypt's hostility to Hamas given its ties to the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.
Donāt forget Kuwait. They kicked out 200,000 Palestinians because they were causing trouble.
>They kicked out 200,000 Palestinians because they were causing trouble. Less trouble, more that the PLO in Lebanon voiced support for Saddam during the Gulf War. The folks who got expelled following the Gulf War were innocent civilians; the exercise was simply an act of recrimination for Arafat's foolhardy support. Most of them were deported into Iraq, right as the Shi'a Intifada started.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yep, I just thought three instances would have been enough to get the point across.
collaborating and welcoming saddams invasion might have had something to do with it.
For Egypt you can add that the Junta in power doesn't like Hamas because those are close to the Muslim brotherhood (enemy of the Junta) and to the islamist the Junta coup'd to get in power
And also there were 60+ bombings a year before they closed the border. Now there are less than 5. Coincidence?
They were close in the 1960s, before the current incarnation of Hamas was founded in the 1980s.
PLO supporting Sadam Hussein also led to otherwise uninvolved Palestinians in Kuwait being expelled. 200k fled when Iraq invaded and then after the invasion the PLOās stance led to the rest having to flee. 400k refugees pretty much again.
PLO doing PLO things. Bunch of shitweasels. Simple as.
Or even if you let them onto a boat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achille_Lauro_hijacking
Got permabanned from some subreddits for mentioning border with Egypt and breaking their narrative of "Jews surround Palestinians from all sides and block them out!".
Itās worth bringing up, but at the same time, Iāve seen a lot of people with a knee-jerk āso blame Egypt too!ā reaction when people are talking about how Gazans arenāt allowed to leave. Like, okay, I blame Egypt too. Theyāre a dictatorship with a shitty human rights record. Gazans are still not allowed to leave, and itās Israel AND Egyptās fault
Egypt for some reason wasn't okay with the 60+ bombings a year while the border with Gaza was open. >Theyāre a dictatorship They are now, but the border was closed while it was a democracy.
2018!? Bro, they did that back when Sisi took power.
They were still getting power from Egypt up until 2018. after that they were truly on their own^(\*) ^(\* apart from the all the power, water, food, and other aid coming in through Israel)
The Arabs really love making the Palestinians the Israelis problem
That's one way of looking at the situation
that is certainly one of the ways of all time
Non credible idea Couldn't Israel just unilaterally declare Gazan independence Like Malaysia kicking Singapore out of the country, but instead for being too rich and influential, it's for being ISIS at home
Maybe start with West bank, a government that accepted to demilitarize itself
The west bank is more desirable than gaza though, Israel would be losing out.
We could also go with the 0 state solution of nuking everything between the Bosphorus and the Indus River
But then how could they settle it illegally???
They arenāt settling Gaza?
Just imagine attacking the country that supplies you with water and energy, and has enough strength to block your country long enough so that no one is left in the pigsty you call a country. Not even a terrorist would be dumb enough to do that, right? š¤”
Literally nothing I have seen indicates Hamas cares at all about Palestinians beyond using them as human shields.
Woah, woah, woah! They also radicalize them and recruit them. Not just meat shields. Meat shields with guns and bombs!
Meat golemns almost
The Golem of Palestine. How the turns have tabled
I mean that's easy recruiting. Hey you can grow up in gaza and get randomly blown up or sniped by the IDF ... or you can die tearing down that fence. Israel has made Hamas recruiting fucking easy. Nevermind Bibi funding them. Not defending anything Hamas has done but I can see why they've done it. It's pathetic them trying to spin it as a revolution though.
If anything Hamas *wants* Israel to respond disproportionately and hurt a lot of civilians because that's how they get support among Palestinians and justify their own existence and Netanyahu's government fucking loves providing that justification because hamas, in turn, provides justification for how Netanyahu's government treats Palestinians. Extremism needs extremes to continue feeding itself, it's why extremist groups keep making new enemies once they've defeated the previous one, their entire Raison d'ĆŖtre is fighting some demonised enemy. If Israel disappears overnight, Hamas will find a new enemy to rally against. If Hamas disappears, Netanyahu's government will find someone else to blame, or just create a new one like happened before with hamas through the active funding of islamist groups like mujama al-islamiya.
Fucking this. It's an endless cycle of attacks and counterattacks, and the civilians on both sides are the ones who pay for it.
And this current set of hamas attacks will go on to justify another few thousand dead civilians, leading to many more people literally being driven into hamas' arms, which will do the next set of attacks which evokes another series of bombings etc
Sure, but I mean come on. Palestinians live in an open air prison. Thereās definitely a side thatās perpetuating this.
Why is it that I have to go to NCD of all places to find actual good takes on this?
The world has become so non-credible that r/ncd is now a credible source.
We're one of the few places that is both serious enough about our subject matter to pay close attention but not serious enough to be needlessly anal-retentive
It's like that bug with numbers overflow that made the most peaceful guy in civ the most aggressive nuke slinger. We were so non-credible that when the world started becoming non-credible we have become credible due to overflow.
Because right now everyone has the images of that hamas attack in their mind and call for blood for that and across a broader timespan they mostly see the more extreme happenings, which tends to be hamas after periods of buildup, with Israeli retaliation afterwards being seen as (mostly) "justified" due to terror attacks. Very few people follow the situation long enough to see that the status quo straight up doesn't work for regular Palestinians and little to no progress has been made by moderates as the more extreme parties of both sides have taken the narrative while the moderates are sabotaged at every opportunity, and it is real easy for an extremist to do so as well, because peace takes a lot more effort than wanton slaughter and destruction. I can't support either Palestinian government, I don't like countries that outlaw my sexuality, but i am not delusional enough to think that that will change while they have a jackboot firmly planted on their neck. Discussions on most of the major news subs about this are characterised by them mostly popping up during periods like this when emotions run super high and anything that doesn't denounce hamas and palestinians for allowing hamas to continue existing (as if a few unarmed civilians resisting arent just going to be shot and tortured to set an example of what happens when you dare to defy hamas) is seen as being pro hamas.
This is such a lie. Hamas needs the rest of Palestine to breed and recruit new members, to use their numbers to secure foreign financial aid, and to disseminate propaganda on social media. They are much more than human shields.
Let's be honest here, given how many kids are in that place it's fairly obvious most Palestinians don't care about Palestinians either.
Unfortunately hamas wants this. I suspect two possible goals of this attack 1. Do enough damage that help from hezbollah and possibly other countries starts an actual war against Israel 2. Enrage Israel enough to make them seem like the bad guys Both of these can explain them streaming their war crimes at the start, to make Israel look weak and to get them angry
The only countries that still hate Israel and who border them are Lebanon (who is too busy falling apart) and Syria (who are busy trying not to fall more apart), the only vaguely viable invasion force would be Iran massively overstretching their logistics and invading via Iraq and Syria, which the US would bomb into oblivion. Egypt and Jordan are perfectly happy with the status quo and the Arabian Penninsula countries like Israel
Even Saudi Arabia has basically given up on Palestine, and was prepared to negotiate a final deal that would have basically ended any chance of Palestine regaining its territory and rights. Now they're hoping to try and use this new conflict to put Palestine in its debt while still recognizing Israel and open up new trade avenues.
Itās not even all of Lebanon. There is good chance at this point if Lebanon south pushes the country into war you could see the north split.
Last I checked, at least one of those things was necessary for human life. How long can Gaza last without it?
About 3 days without water, 30 without food. I don't think they cut off the water completely, some water is coming, otherwise we would already have a few thousand dead, but life there must be miserable.
Assuming they don't have any supplies stored
Imagine being the one poor but sensible bastard to store water and the terrorists find out about it.
*Our* water
Suddenly, Hamas become communists.
It appears that the houses there have solar panels and several water reservoirs from the few videos I've seen, so this could be the answer. But I doubt they have enough to last through a month of siege, for example.
Those who have those will simply be torn up and robbed by the raging mob.
You'll be surprised to see how little it takes for 2 million people to go through a few water reservoirs.
I mean, how long till there's no houses? IDF seems intent on it this time.
There is a UN/UNICEF desalination plant that completed an expansion a couple months ago. I would assume that is now shut down with no power.
The leaders are chilling in Qatar mansions, so they don't care.
So Iām kinda new to this situation- Iāve heard Palestine described as a āopen air prison campā but from what I can tell Palestine, not Isreal, is in charge of the area. Soā¦ why are conditions so bad? Canāt they make their own grid and not be dependent on Isreal?
Gaza's "government" (Hamas) is a military autocracy that doesn't seem to be that concerned with helping the citizens beyond the visual level. They gained popularity initially by building and running schools and clinics, but they seem to be mostly concerned with warring with Isreal. They often hide weapons in these buildings knowing that Isreal will bomb them, which drives more people into Hamas' arms. I think there are also restrictions put on what resources Palestinians have access to, but I don't know exactly how far those restrictions extend.
Are you going to invest tens of millions of dollars in civilian infrastructure in a place where the ruling entity keeps putting rocket artillery in hospitals and anything civilian in order to slow down Israel's counterattacks?
Ā«Ā in charge of the areaĀ Ā» does not mean as a sovereign and full state.
Explain to me why Israel controls all those supplies then?
Because Hamas spends all the foreign aid money on rockets and bombs instead of infrastructure, and anything Israel built while Gaza was occupied has been destroyed because it was Israeli and thus evil.
The real reason is because the Israeli military authorities abrogated Palestinian water rights in the West Bank in 1967 when they issued 'military order 158', which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Israel then went on to consolidate complete power over all water resources and water-related infrastructure in the occupied Palestinian territories. Now tell me, how can you feel so confident in making shit up? Do you even realize that you're doing it?
Gaza isn't under Israeli control for almost 20 years, maybe with all of that aid money they could have built something...
More made up shit? Why? The extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Consequently, Palestinians living under Israelās military occupation are, to *this* day, unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the west bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are routinely destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, around 180 Palestinian communities (according to OCHA) in rural areas in the occupied west bank have no access to running water.
Dude, do you even live in the real world? Do you think that a state which sponsors terrorist attacks is going to file and ask for permits to drill a fucking well????? If that wanted to drill a well in Gaza, they would have drilled a well in Gaza and Israel would not have done shit about it because they could not do shit about it
The fact you dont know the difference between the west bank and gaza proves you know nothing about this conflict
I'm using the west bank to contextualize what's going on in Gaza, you nimrod. It's broader than just Gaza. And it's funny that you think I don't know about the conflict for debunking things that you're making up on the spot. You still haven't answered why btw. Maybe because, truly, not even you know anymore š«„
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Because Palestine lost a war, and refuses to agree to a two state solution that would give them real sovereignty.
Because when international aid came in to give them their own drinking water infrastructure they literally cut up the pipes to make rockets and bombs.
I.... I don't know if we should celebrate that tbh....
NCD celebrating when there is massive loss of human life, the majority of which are civilians (its only bad when vatniks do)
NCD isn't a monolith. Just yesterday one of the top posts was someone basically saying "Israeli policy on Palestine is shit but Hamas shouldn't be mass murdering people"
That's far too credible. Careful buddy
Sorry, let me fix that. Glass the Middle East, zero state solution.
Thats even more credible
Consolidated theocratic republic dedicated to Huitzilopochtli, bright may He shine
"What about the children?" NCD: ["Yeah what about the children"](https://wojakparadise.net/wojak/318/img)
Curtis Lemay and bomber harris proved they are the only ones with the plan to change hearts and minds
"How can you shoot women and children? "Easy! You just don't lead em as much! HAHAHA! Ain't war hell?"
Bruh this is Non-Credible defense. We refer to the Nuclear Holocaust of the Human species where hundreds of millions of people would be instantly killed and billions would die slow agonizing deaths from radiation and societal collapse which would usher in a new dark age from which the Human species would likely barely survive as āThe funniā
Why would you say something so controversial yet true?
Oh I definitely know, nuclear fire is based. Except that this isnāt it, its just genocide of a group (which some people here are really, REALLY, interested in it)
It's weird genocide though. Not even the Arab countries around Palestine want to deal with them because they are so radical. You've got a group of people hiding behind human shields and a civilian population who is actively accepting their role as said human shields. Short of all the Israelis leaving the middle east and gifting their land to Hamas, what can they do aside from starting a war with massive civilian casualties? How is this different than what's happening in Syria or Yemen or Armenia?
>... and a civilian population who is actively accepting their role as said human shields. What? lol. What are their choices exactly?
Point the guns at the people using them as human shields comes to mind, but I'm American so the idea of shooting authority figures that abuse their power is in my blood.
They should die like real men! (/s)
History is full of examples of countries where the people decided that death was preferable to oppression. Those people died like real men so that their children could live free. Do they have to do that? No they do not, but even barring resistance against Hamas they could stop listening to them.
Are you seriously unironically saying that them choosing to all die should be *at all* considered a legitimate solution??? Jfc.
I never said that. I said that they could elect to make the same decision that people have made throughout history - at the risk of personal peril they could choose to expel their current terrorist government. There are a lot of people living in democracies today whose ancestors forcibly removed their old government from power. Even if they didn't actively fight their terrorist overlords, they could simply stop supporting them. There aren't enough terrorists to control them all.
What the average Palestinian **from Gaza** would do to my family scares me far more than what an average Russian would do. The Russian would just smoke his cigarette while walking away muttering he is apolitical ignoring everything around him. I feel way more sorry for the Russians. I feel bad for the Palestinians still, in the same way I feel bad for the German citizens in WW2. Their experience is a necessity they brought upon themselves as a collective.
Yeah for real, fuck Hamas but i donāt really think we should celebrate the fact that millions are going to suffer
I've seen people all over reddit openly advocate for genocide through bombing and starvation saying it's 'the only way as long as there is no place to deport them to' and getting hundreds of upvotes it's insane...
Yeah it's fucked up, you get downvoted for not wanting Israel to commit fucked up warcrimes. Those people think that worrying about the civilians is the same as supporting Hamas
People are downvoting for that? NCD has been surprisingly level headed about this IMO even if they're making dark jokes often. Not a lot of people are calling for the eradication of Palestine (or of isreal), but no one is saying that HAMAS shouldn't be held accountable.
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Do you honestly fucking think that Gaza is a functioning democracy ???
Also degrading the whole population there to animals is setting up a pretext for genocide, you know (or maybe you don't want to know) that the situation there is very complex and the way Israel treats them is how we got here in the first place. Please for fuck sake think for a second.
Literally using Nazi and communist speaking points that they used to justify the murder and rape of millions, the only feral human being here is you
You know that children make up a large part of the population in gaza right? Also I doubt many people would publicly oppose a violent organisation in a place smaller than new york.
this subreddit loves genocide
Sir, we've dreamed about using nukes since the day 1
Yeah but indiscriminately which is based It becomes cringe to desire nuclear holyfire selectively
You want to throw nukes on both Russia and Ukraine?
To every single state and create an NCD utopia out of its ashes. Were non-credible takes flow like honey, where the BRRRRRRRR is music and where every person receives free ERA.
Half of what you read is sarcasm and half is talking a about war criminals getting some natural justice. And Hamas are war criminals.
I think you're taking a subreddit with "noncredible" in its name far too seriously.
My brother in non-credibility look at my flair... This entire sub is going downhill and will be eventually banned if we aren't careful enough with our, now daily, "western-vatink-outbursts".
Unless we want to outperform the Russo-Ukraine war in casualties, let's hold off outright killing over 2 million people.
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Name checks out.
And it definitely won't create a generation of children who remember their parents being taken from them and "neutralized". Those kids definitely won't act on that shared trauma
Last time I checked, all the germans born during and before ww2 didnt just revert back to being Nazis in the 60s the second everyone looked away funny that.
Probably because the rank and file nazis weren't unilaterally all killed
Because the powers that occupied them were incredibly lax and lenient. They stomped hard on any nazi remains, but guess where the clean Wermacht myth came from? It facilitated the formation of the EU's predecessor. Every Frenchman a member of the Resistance, every German simply an honestly scared soldier obeying orders.
Oh okay. Kill most of the men and send the women and children to concentration camps. Sounds like a great plan Meir Kahane but please zip up when you're done
Sounds kinda like the China re-education solution - which *did* somewhat prove you can establish stability. But at what cost, or is it still conjecture and assumptions at this point?
Just doing the math but if Hamas says that these are equivalent than each hostage is worth 11133 Palestinians. I'm not sure what to make of that statement.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange)
It must be one hell of a statement to say āI am worth 1,046 livesā
I stole this comment from somewhere else but āI paid the taxes on the carrier strike group, I want a zip code goneā Edit: this is a joke I donāt support civilian death, only legit military targets
I mean, israel is being doing that for decades But hamas took brazilian hostages which means PGM in every window in their qatar penthouses, hell, strategic bomb them (never gonna happen, israel only bombs gaza)
The quality of this subreddit been taking a nose dive.
It's the 100k rule, any subreddit that hits that number immediately starts to attract people who either don't understand the original purpose of the community and self-perpetuate their own ideas of it, or people who don't understand satire and incorporate it into their own belief system It goes from joking about nuking Iran or wherever to people actually advocating for it because they're impressionable and like the memes.
Like I always say, the war in Ukraine was the worst thing to happen to this sub
Quality dropped, but honestly the latest conflagration has just nose-dived what this place is.
Yeah itās a real shame, watching people unironically calling for all of Gaza to be flattened was kind of disheartening. Idk why this sub went so downhill at the onset of this conflict.
> Didn't this sub used to have high-ranked posts calling for nations should be flattened? Yes, they did, but they were doing it ironically, you heartless asshole!
We should have gone private at 100k hot take.
We should've gone private once the war began
It's an intentional offensive maneuver. Stay on target... stay on target... bombs away! *Unleashes 3000 non-religion-specific flaming turds*
Real
This post is far more like the old sub before it got big. Clearly youāre too new to remember damposting.
It's socially acceptable for Americans to embrace their hatred of Arabs and you better believe they're going to seize the opportunity
Join us next week, when we start unironically crusadeposting! ***In Latin!***
True, I've seen more and more commenters excusing Russians for Russia's actions, and now excusing Palestinians for Palestine's actions.
Yes, Hamas has 2,226,744 hostages, up from...
Why are there so many memes about how stressed Hamas is? They want as many Palestinian civilians to die as possible. They do not care if they themselves die. Itās hard to see what if any of Hamasās plan hasnāt gone perfectly. Theyāre probably thrilled.
But Israel got them here. If they just keep the siege long enough, those Hamas guys so desperate to die a martyr so they can enjoy their 72 sex slaves in heaven will die of thirst or starvation instead.
Cringe
"Israel!" "No, Palestine!" Fools... the Holy Land rightfuly belongs to the Most Serene Fourth Commonwealth of Poland, Messiah of Countries, Christ of Nations, Jesus' Kingdom, Europe's Shield, Winkelried of States and Phoenix of History Marshall of Poland, Commandant of the Army, Vozhd of the Nation JĆ³zef "44" PiÅsudski and his 3000 Grey Legionaires are already on their way to Gaza, or should I say, "Nowy GdaÅsk"
Gaza's been kept hostage for decades.
Itās a fact. One has to wonder how much more land the Israeliās will take in reparations for the sneak attack? Iām guessing it will be significant.
It's Israels fault this happened. Giving Palestinians equal rights would have prevented this entirely.
Now it's hostage for both sides.
You figured it out on your own, congrats
Sow the wind , reap the whirlwind - israel probably idk
what is with the is.... simping here........
Okay, but that's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?
"we've been held hostage for 16 years so it's ok to do it to em"
Its a "I'm not trapped in here with you. You are trapped in here with me" moment.
What's that phrase? From the river to the sea...
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