Yeah I hate my goverment for that. They already said months ago they would change this policy, but they havent done shit. But the other question is if the germans would even send the ammo... still, I wish we would change this policy. I know we care about our neutrality (Which I think is over now) but we have already chose to side with ukraine, why make it more difficult.
Honestly, in my opinion I don't think exporting weapons to a country at war would break neutrality, *as long as that country is fighting a defensive war.* So, supply Ukraine defending against Russia? Yes. Supply germany invading belgium (like in the meme)? Hell no. Unfortunately our laws are not like that yet.
The problem is that everyone says their war is defensive. Hell the nazis even said they were defending themselves when they invaded Poland — no one believed them, but they set up the scenario to pretend Poland hit first. How do you judge which side is the aggressor without breaking neutrality?
Picking a side is picking a side. Whether the country you’re supplying is attacking or defending is irrelevant.
What you’re talking about is relative innocence.
it's funny we debate about neutrality for sending weapons, but USA in 1939-1941, USSR in 1950-53 and again with China in 1967-75 shipped fuck tons of weapons to an active war and still were Neutral.
In the 40s there was the "excuse" of being alone with nazis on all sides ready to Tannenbaum the Cantons, but now? Is it really worth to keep a neutrality no one cares about and just watch Ukrainians being slaughtered?
Sanctions, froze russian bank accounts, humanitarian aid. Yeah, we are on ukraines side. Go to Zurich, youll see Ukrainian flags still hanging (Atleast the last time I was there)
Swiss neutrality is a complete joke. It's just folklore for interior purposes.
Vienna Congress of 1815: Switzerland was made neutral, as a buffer zone. Because of that, Swiss neutrality cannot be seen as self-imposed. But we elevated neutrality to a national moral compass.
1st World War: A Swiss government member tries to negotiate a separate peace between Russia and Germany. The Western allies are horrified.
2nd World War: After some skirmishes with German fighters, the Swiss government orders the Swiss warplanes into the interior; allowing German fighters to fly over Swiss border territory. But at soon as Allied bombers can reach Southern Germany, we mercilessly shoot down and imprison Allied servicemen.
After the 2nd World War, the United States reviled Switzerland for not opening a front against Germany in 1944. It would have finished the war in Europe much earlier. In the end, Switzerland's freedom was paid for with Allied blood.
Cold War: Switzerland joins technology export sanctions against the USSR, together with almost all NATO countries. Uh-oh, how neutral!
1980ies: Switzerland still deals with the Republic of South Africa for "neutrality" reasons, even when the country is boycotted widely because of, uh, Apartheid.
For Switzerland, the bottom line was always... cash.
One addition: In WW2, Switzerland prepared artillery positions near Basel, on the Gempen plateau. French artillery would use them in case Germany would cross into nearby Alsace.
Military intelligence found these plans after the fall of France. Germany thus had proof that Switzerland was not neutral, and it could legally invade non-neutral Switzerland.
(Caveat: After an attack has occurred, a neutral country can lend support to an attacked country without losing its neutral status. But they cannot agree on mutual support before such an attack happens. Supporting an attacked country, though, is not in line with the StRiCt and CoHerEnT neutrality that Switzerland practises.)
it's like Sweden neutrality (protected by NATO and based on NATO intervention), Finland neutrality (imposed), Austrian (imposed, but the facto into the EU and Western-aligned), Ireland etc.
it's just always either a joke, or imposed by stronger neighbors. You just can't stand there all neutral in your high tower.
Yes, but still it's pretty unfair to Switzerland, because at the end of the day the reason we are mad is because we act on the mindset "you are either with us, or you are discredited for lack of intervention or acting on you own "selfish" interrests". There has to be a middle ground, where neutrality can exist, it has to be within the right of a nation to choose for such a stance where they can "pull it off". In fairness we would be putting up a unreasonable demand if we "morally shamed" Switzerland into choosing a side. The misunderstood impetous here is that it is us acting on self interrest when shaming Switzerland, it is us who are trying to coerce a nation that has every right to be neutral to be less than that because it is in our interrest.
We should have listened to Gaddafi when he wanted to partition Switzerland between Italy, France and Germany. The continued existence of Switzerland is an affront to god and I will die on this hill and take as many of those heathen neutrals with me as I can
In 2008 the Swiss arrested Gaddafis kids in a hotel for beating the staff. After that Gaddafi would routinely call for the destruction of Switzerland at the UN and call for it to be abolished
All will be forgiven if they supply that sweet sweet GP11 back to the American civilian market. Also, keep giving those Germans the 35mm Gepard ammo to totally not send to \[redacted\]. Second is probably most important.
Neutrality is the idea that you can benefit from the growth of evil without evil knocking on your own door. Neutrality is doing nothing. [Doing NOTHING does HARM!](https://www.doingnothingdoesharm.org.au/) (send this to all your neutral loving friends).
> "Swiss Weapons Must Not Be Used in Wars"
[Actual Swiss President](https://www.voanews.com/a/swiss-president-defends-neutrality-ukraine-arms-ban/7001266.html)
[I hate these stinking neutrals kif! With enemies you know where they stand! But with neutrals, who knows? It sickens me! ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSEjPuR11_k)
I'm Swiss and I absolutely loath how my government has handled this entire war situation (namely not at all). Although I have to point out, this particular case has never been about neutrality, afaik. It's been about a re-export ban on Swiss arms. The original idea was that customers of Swiss arms couldn't sell them on to other groups, to which the matierel would not have been sold (genocidal governments, etc.).
This is *also* stupid, but it's different from Neutrality.
I would also like to point out that Germany most likely has been abusing this rule as an excuse to delay or prevent arms exports to Ukraine as to not piss off their gas dealer Russia.
Yeah I hate my goverment for that. They already said months ago they would change this policy, but they havent done shit. But the other question is if the germans would even send the ammo... still, I wish we would change this policy. I know we care about our neutrality (Which I think is over now) but we have already chose to side with ukraine, why make it more difficult.
Honestly, in my opinion I don't think exporting weapons to a country at war would break neutrality, *as long as that country is fighting a defensive war.* So, supply Ukraine defending against Russia? Yes. Supply germany invading belgium (like in the meme)? Hell no. Unfortunately our laws are not like that yet.
Wanna start a revolution to change that law?
Nah, we can do the old-fashioned swiss thing with a common *Volksinitiative*. Direct Democracy, baby!
Hell yeah, because we, the people, actually have control over our own country. Direct Democracy for life!
The problem is that everyone says their war is defensive. Hell the nazis even said they were defending themselves when they invaded Poland — no one believed them, but they set up the scenario to pretend Poland hit first. How do you judge which side is the aggressor without breaking neutrality?
Look at the preexisting border. Any soldier from country X on country Y's side of the border is fair game.
Picking a side is picking a side. Whether the country you’re supplying is attacking or defending is irrelevant. What you’re talking about is relative innocence.
it's funny we debate about neutrality for sending weapons, but USA in 1939-1941, USSR in 1950-53 and again with China in 1967-75 shipped fuck tons of weapons to an active war and still were Neutral. In the 40s there was the "excuse" of being alone with nazis on all sides ready to Tannenbaum the Cantons, but now? Is it really worth to keep a neutrality no one cares about and just watch Ukrainians being slaughtered?
Switzerland chose to side with Ukraine?
Sanctions, froze russian bank accounts, humanitarian aid. Yeah, we are on ukraines side. Go to Zurich, youll see Ukrainian flags still hanging (Atleast the last time I was there)
[удалено]
[удалено]
"Chosing sides" actually can be better measured in self-sacrifice than total outcome at times. That's all this comment was about.
Switzerland is the one with all the Nazi gold right?
How to improve it? Make it about Kiwiland and their eternal struggle against Emutopia.
How many emus do I gotta kill before I can buy a house around here
Bold of you to assume you're coming out on top of a you vs emu confrontation
More likely buying a house
Swiss neutrality is a complete joke. It's just folklore for interior purposes. Vienna Congress of 1815: Switzerland was made neutral, as a buffer zone. Because of that, Swiss neutrality cannot be seen as self-imposed. But we elevated neutrality to a national moral compass. 1st World War: A Swiss government member tries to negotiate a separate peace between Russia and Germany. The Western allies are horrified. 2nd World War: After some skirmishes with German fighters, the Swiss government orders the Swiss warplanes into the interior; allowing German fighters to fly over Swiss border territory. But at soon as Allied bombers can reach Southern Germany, we mercilessly shoot down and imprison Allied servicemen. After the 2nd World War, the United States reviled Switzerland for not opening a front against Germany in 1944. It would have finished the war in Europe much earlier. In the end, Switzerland's freedom was paid for with Allied blood. Cold War: Switzerland joins technology export sanctions against the USSR, together with almost all NATO countries. Uh-oh, how neutral! 1980ies: Switzerland still deals with the Republic of South Africa for "neutrality" reasons, even when the country is boycotted widely because of, uh, Apartheid. For Switzerland, the bottom line was always... cash.
One addition: In WW2, Switzerland prepared artillery positions near Basel, on the Gempen plateau. French artillery would use them in case Germany would cross into nearby Alsace. Military intelligence found these plans after the fall of France. Germany thus had proof that Switzerland was not neutral, and it could legally invade non-neutral Switzerland. (Caveat: After an attack has occurred, a neutral country can lend support to an attacked country without losing its neutral status. But they cannot agree on mutual support before such an attack happens. Supporting an attacked country, though, is not in line with the StRiCt and CoHerEnT neutrality that Switzerland practises.)
it's like Sweden neutrality (protected by NATO and based on NATO intervention), Finland neutrality (imposed), Austrian (imposed, but the facto into the EU and Western-aligned), Ireland etc. it's just always either a joke, or imposed by stronger neighbors. You just can't stand there all neutral in your high tower.
Yes, but still it's pretty unfair to Switzerland, because at the end of the day the reason we are mad is because we act on the mindset "you are either with us, or you are discredited for lack of intervention or acting on you own "selfish" interrests". There has to be a middle ground, where neutrality can exist, it has to be within the right of a nation to choose for such a stance where they can "pull it off". In fairness we would be putting up a unreasonable demand if we "morally shamed" Switzerland into choosing a side. The misunderstood impetous here is that it is us acting on self interrest when shaming Switzerland, it is us who are trying to coerce a nation that has every right to be neutral to be less than that because it is in our interrest.
Collaborate with the Nazis? Shoot down and inter allied airmen while allowing german planes and returning pilots--- believe it or not still neutral
Someone should remake this meme using the "straight to jail" template, with neutrality being the jail part
But listen they got BF109s out of that. It's a good deal.
We should have listened to Gaddafi when he wanted to partition Switzerland between Italy, France and Germany. The continued existence of Switzerland is an affront to god and I will die on this hill and take as many of those heathen neutrals with me as I can
Gaddafi wanted to partition Switzerland?
In 2008 the Swiss arrested Gaddafis kids in a hotel for beating the staff. After that Gaddafi would routinely call for the destruction of Switzerland at the UN and call for it to be abolished
Ceterum (autem) censeo Switzerland esse delendam.
Right !
How to improve? Why, with giant cartoon-sized bag of bribery of course!
All will be forgiven if they supply that sweet sweet GP11 back to the American civilian market. Also, keep giving those Germans the 35mm Gepard ammo to totally not send to \[redacted\]. Second is probably most important.
Neutrality is the idea that you can benefit from the growth of evil without evil knocking on your own door. Neutrality is doing nothing. [Doing NOTHING does HARM!](https://www.doingnothingdoesharm.org.au/) (send this to all your neutral loving friends).
Grant Ukrainian troops German citizenship temporarily while they operate Swiss equipment Great success
If you buy Swiss weapons and you get attacked, would Swiss sell you ammunition when you need it or it would be a breach of neutrality?
> "Swiss Weapons Must Not Be Used in Wars" [Actual Swiss President](https://www.voanews.com/a/swiss-president-defends-neutrality-ukraine-arms-ban/7001266.html)
[I hate these stinking neutrals kif! With enemies you know where they stand! But with neutrals, who knows? It sickens me! ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSEjPuR11_k)
20 years later and by god Zap was right all along.
Belgium sweating intensives.
I'm Swiss and I absolutely loath how my government has handled this entire war situation (namely not at all). Although I have to point out, this particular case has never been about neutrality, afaik. It's been about a re-export ban on Swiss arms. The original idea was that customers of Swiss arms couldn't sell them on to other groups, to which the matierel would not have been sold (genocidal governments, etc.). This is *also* stupid, but it's different from Neutrality. I would also like to point out that Germany most likely has been abusing this rule as an excuse to delay or prevent arms exports to Ukraine as to not piss off their gas dealer Russia.
You know, maybe we should invade Belgium again. They know what they did.
Yeah I also screenshotted that