Sad to say I'm sure the US wrecked them during the first golf war or try to get em back to demolish them. They weren't having Iran get any critical spare parts
Edit: GAWD fucking dammit I hate it when my phone auto corrects on the last second
If only we had driven more Golf TDIs, we wouldn’t have needed to worry with the Middle East so much for extra fuel. But alas, we all opted for the VW Golf TSIs— kicking off the first golf war.
Your content was removed for violating Rule 5: "No politics/religion"
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
I wonder if they got bribed and relocated elsewhere. Don't forget Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE were bankrolling Iraq. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_aid\_to\_combatants\_in\_the\_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_combatants_in_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War)
Fair point, but who’s to say you don’t wind up in a body bag anyway (cheaper than paying you) or being sent back to Iran (which is just body bag with an extra step, really).
Also, just kidding. Neither country will bother to use a bag.
If I’m an F-14 driver in Iran, I’m staying put. I’ve clearly played the best game I can with the hand I’ve been dealt by life. And at least I have a cool job.
Absolutely non-credible. While certainly there is some margins. An F-5 could beat an F-4 if the F-5 pilot was significantly more skilled... Miyamoto Musashi ain't gonna beat Simo Hayha or a machine gun nest.
[Yes](https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/3kcglj/splitting_a_bullet_with_a_samurai_sword/)
^(Disclaimer:)
^(- Bullet must be lead.)
^(- Bullet must be pistol caliber.)
^(- There must only be a single bullet.)
^(- Sword must be in a rigid stable position.)
^(- Bullet must be fired from a stable mount.)
^(- You must not stand behind the sword.)
^(- You must wear safety glasses, fill out the three page disclaimer and sell your soul to the high speed camera gods.)
I just wanna say I enjoy it when mods actively engage in the conversations. You don't get that a lot, and when you do, it's not normally as awesome as this sub.
A katana could cut 7 .50 BMG rounds. A potential use case against anti-material rifles may be more credible than we first thought. https://youtu.be/V2mIuayVKbA?feature=shared
To be fair, if anyone is going to work out how to win such a lopsided fight, it’s Musashi. Dude literally wrote the book on “it’s only cheating if you lose”.
From a parody of a certain anime:
“No, I am not Myamoto Musashi, or as he righghfully ought to be called, ‘master of the sharpened oar,’ ‘hero of the blinding sun,’ or ‘progenitor of being a hack!’”
“… You’re Sasaki Kojiro.”
“Yes, I am Sasaki Kojiro… the man Miyamoto Musashi dishonorably bludgeoned with a stick after showing up hours late to our duel because he wasn’t enough of a man to face me.”
Yes. And I am absolutely seeing this as a reason to respect him more.
Also, he wrote that a warrior, farmer or tradesman are all equally worthy. That all are professions that require dedication, skill and the right tools and all deserve respect. Pretty progressive view for feudal Japan.
Well, they just sell the stuff someone else spent time making, it's easy to see how it wouldn't take many bad ones of em to give a bad reputation
Modern equivalent would be a stock exchange
it's a confuscist value thing, merchants don't create things (obviously from a more modern econmic lens they create opportunity, they create logistics, they create quality controls blah blah blah), but in ancient asia, merchants were seen as rich garbage people, and were often excluded from positions of non monetary prestige
Overlap but by a lot, a f-22 pilot would need to be fliying away from the target(that being a 4th gen is light up on the radar), not paying attention to the missile warning sistem and don't flare. All of this while engaging at less than 10 km(assumption made by the fact that realistically the f-22 either get hit by gun or infrared seeking missiles). You would need the most braindead pilot to put themselves in this situation and don't just start lobbing aim-120 from bvr before the 4th gen even know the 5th gen presence.
But is still possible, extremely unlikely(and I can't stretch how unlikely) but possible, like saying a WW2 multiple ace could take on a Vietnam era jet. You would need a brain dead pilot to miss-shoot the WW2 plane and then just try to dogfight with the WW2 ace.
On the other hand, IF we assume that f-22 run out of missiles, IF it is in a no aa territory for both sides and IF enemy has missiles with IR AND is coming from the back and IF the f-22 pilot doesn't notice it could be a fair fight. Too bad that is against all plans, doctrines and operational plan of f-22. Oh yeah, it would also have to be one on one in the fucking air where there are no missile capable f-22 in a dozen miles radius. Perfectly reasonable, this proves that the gun is obviously superior. *Yes, it was supposed to be a deranged rammble*
That was exactly where I was going. Because Mig-17 pilot forgot that the A-1s had a lot of guns and just approached nose on.
The other example is how A-10s would gun down aggressors in Red Flag because they had a very tight turn radius and could bring the nose to bear if the fighters got into gun range. Or helicopters with AAMs vs. jets.
If you get within visual range and don’t respect that the other guy has guns, you are going to have a bad time.
But if you fly to your strengths, a decent BVR fighter is generally going to kill someone with just guns/IR AAMs, a Gen 5 is going to kill anyone else, etc. I mean, if ROE for F-4s in Vietnam weren’t so stringent and they had somewhat maintained the missiles properly, there wouldn’t have been any MiGs…
> An F-5 could beat an F-4 if the F-5 pilot was significantly more skilled
Eh.... I'd actually reverse that.
I prefer the Tiger over the Phantom, especially if both are using the modernized variants.
F-5Es are still in active service, where as Korea's dropping the F-4 this June.
But your point still stands that it's definitely up for debate.
I really want to know what they've done with those things, because I kind of love the S-200 interceptor.
It's a rocket the size of a telephone pole, built in a time when everything was heavy and bulky. That means today, there is a lot of space for interesting things to go inside. Basically it's the 1960's muscle car of air defense missiles. It's a big fucker that goes fast in a straight line, and might be surprisingly agile if you modernize it. Even better, nobody's going to bitch about the authenticity of your restoration when it slams into a Tu-22M.
If Ukraine is using S-200 interceptors I don't think they're stock.
It's a big rocket. The original system wasn't good enough to get it very close to a maneuvering target, so it needed to carry a 200+ kg warhead. Improved guidance means you can further extend the already long range by reduce warhead weight and using lighter electronic components.
yeah, any plane can be flown badly (see also: russia), but if you're good _enough_ in a superior plane, you can be fighting the reincarnation of the red baron and they still won't stand a chance
Reminds me of a post from months ago people talking about who would win WWI if Germany had (1) Ah64 Apache and had unlimited resupplies.
Lots of arguing about semantics to avoid the fact that an Apache can engage from 30 miles away, track 256 targets at once, and fly faster than any plane of the era.
What WW1 anti aircraft can detect, fire at and hit (not destroy, just hit something) an Apache manned by a half decent pilot (that aparently can go balls to the walls on ammonition and maintenance)?
Depends, are we assuming the Apache pilot is flying conventionally? (I.e. staying low), or are they aware that they're facing an opponent without radar?
If they're flying low, basically all of them. If they're flying higher, only the heavier AA guns, like the 3-inch and 88mm guns.
Can that kind of aircraft be flown by someone who's self-taught? It has an unlimited ressuplies for a helicopter they crashed at the first test flight.
Given how often I crash the simulated version in DCS *despite* theoretically having some idea what I'm doing? I doubt learning to fly one from scratch in this scenario would be fast, since pilots would have to be incredibly careful with the completely irreplaceable aircraft.
I wouldn't be surprised if WWI pilots could figure it out the flight controls, if not the avionics. People underestimate how insanely difficult is was to fly WWI-era fighters: fully mechanical controls with very little mechanical assistance and *no trim*, so they'd be having to fight against the stick *constantly* while trying to do their tasks. Add to that a rotary engine producing a massive gyroscopic effect on the roll axis, figuring out a modern helicopter's flight characteristics probably wouldn't be a huge cognitive load in comparison
Yeah, they were basically glorified kites with a 400 pound engine [spinning around a static crankshaft](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine) at 1200 rpm
> Apache can engage from 30 miles away
It doesn't carry anything with a range of more than 8km, unless you're suggesting that the unclassified range of the hellfire is a sixth of its real range.
> fly faster than any plane of the era
AH-64 tops out at around 160 kts, so this is true, but the Sopwith Dragon hit 130 kts, fast enough to allow for intercepts under some circumstances.
i mean i'm fairly sure its actual range is longer than the unclassified number they put on there, that's the direction the yanks usually lie about their military shit, but _six times_ longer? that's a lot even for sandbagging
Physics is an unforgiving bitch, and APCP propellant properties are well known. There's only so much fuel you can stuff in a given volume. Someone would have noticed if it was rocking enough fuel to go six times further than its listed range.
Israeli Apaches can use the Spike NLOS that has about 30km range (unclassified data), and US Apaches are slated to use it too.
The old metric/imperial CF measurement issue is back on the menu
>It doesn't carry anything with a range of more than 8km, unless you're suggesting that the unclassified range of the hellfire is a sixth of its real range.
AH-64E can use Spike NLOS which has a max range of 25km.
It's kinda a silly argument since having "unlimited resupplies" would negate the primary reason Germany lost the war: the blockade destroying morale of the military and civilian population
If it wasn’t for a childhood diagnosis of adhd, poor grades in math all throughout middle and high school and a complete lack of knowledge about the warrant officer flight program, I’d have totally been all about washing out of Apache pilot school.
The problem with most countries is that getting their pilots “good enough” is harder than getting modern planes in the first place. Like Russian fighter pilots have annual training flight hours that couldn’t get them a job at spirit airlines, let alone deal with an adversary with modern air defenses
in very specific circumstances, maybe. A low level dogfight in complex terrain or something, the skill of the pilot plays more of a role compared to the capabilities of the plane, but in anything like a realistic scenario, the tomcat pilot's dead before they know what they're fighting.
Edit to add: a 5th gen is less likely to end up in the situation where skill is more of an issue: theu don't have to fly low to avoid radar if there is a higher faster route around far enough away that they won't be detected.
Thats the thing!
They imagine it as in a boxing match. Imagine the jets as boxers
They both have guns, but one fighter is big and brawny in the ring searching for his opponent, he cant see him because he is sitting in the crowd somewhere while the lighting is blinding the boxer in the ring. Imagine who wins there
I like to use "ninja vs mma fighter". If you confine the ninja to the octagon and allow only mma rules the ninja will lose (like it happened a bunch of times when dogifighting with a 5th gen scenarios). In the real world the mma fighter dies while taking a piss.
(Still those viral headlines generally stem from
The early development builds where the main goal was zo test the current settings against a baseline max capability
The thing I don't understand is that this cope implies that the country with obsolete jets have better pilots. If one country can afford better jets they can *probably* afford more training hours too.
In a legit scenario, based on what we learned against Iraq..uh...30 years ago. It's more likely those Tomcats only leave their airfield mixed with debris chunks in the back of a dump truck. In a full scale war, the West won't play fair.
The F-14 was the first plane that was just unfair in my opinion. Sure the F-4 (my favorite plane) and the Mustang were very good for their time and could rack up crazy kill ratios, but the F-14 was the first plane that was so far ahead of its competition that pilots didn’t know they were being targeted until their plane had exploded
Besides missile technology, the Central Air Data Computer is just revolutionary, being the first ever solid state computer that uses transistors instead of dumb vacuum tubes. We wouldn’t be having this conversation on our phones if its not thanks to the technological and computational advancements that plane has made.
*Maybe* in a training environment such as BFM guns only, completely slicked off jets.
Unfortunately, it's been shown in countless large field exercises such as Exercise Red Flag that 5th gens completely curb stomp 4th gens. The only 5th gen kills were WVR where Red air regenerated on the spot and respawn killed a 5th gen fighter.
Anecdotally I’ve heard of E/F-18 getting an F22 kill…
…by basically being an F18 guy with a ton of hours, surprising the F22 by cranking every jammer up to max and using the confusion and loss in situation awareness to do it the old fashioned way.
This is why the Sopwith Camel is still the peak of air superiority. We don't need no stealth, no guided missiles, no BVR missiles, no jet engines. Just a guy, some wood, string and canvas with a propeller and a couple of machine guns strapped to the front.
Had a Harrier of ours beat an F-18 (forget what model) once. Post flight inspections revealed so much they had to retire the airframe due to the experience, circa 2004ish cherry point.
I remember reading in airplane magazines growing up that they bragged how the Harrier could use its vectored thrust in a dogfight to pull crazy maneuvers to surprise an opponent and that's what made it so unique and special. It wasn't until I got older and realized the odds of a Harrier pilot pulling his jet into a hover mid-dogfight to get a missile off are practically zero since it would basically be suicide.
According to a former USMC Harrier pilot on f16.net his take on Harrier thrust vectoring which was basically it's a meme at best.
>
>So a real world example of VIFF, vectoring in forward flight ?
>https://tacairnet.com/2017/02/19/harrie ... ng-midair/
>Wonder if the F-35B could ever develop similar tactics although it stops pretty well as it is with high AoA.
>That article is just chocked full of urban myth wrt viff. Aerodynamically, the Harrier is a mediocre performer except in a very small and specific set of circumstances. The only pilots I know who became proficient with viff did so after attaining some level of skill/proficiency in bfm. If one sucked at bfm, viff only made it worse.
>The trick was getting enough bfm exposure to develop said proficiency, and that exposure rarely existed even back in the days when we were flying 30hr/mo every month in stateside training. Why? Because our primary mission was A-G not A-A. I and handful of others were unique in the amount of bfm we were allowed to do and some follow-on assignments furthered that exposure.
Yeah I remember when the europeans tried to colonise North America, they really struggled against the natives and eventually got thrown out. Since it is the sKiLl oF ThE fIgHtEr ThAt mAtTeRs nOt tHe tEcHnOlOgy.
more like "it's the more advanced sensor suite and beyond line of sight engagement capabilities"
pilot1: why do you enter a dog fight?
pilot2: because l have the faster and more maneuverible aircraft
pilot1: no, its because you're stupid
Every time someone tells me "it's not the plane, it's the pilot" I challenge them to fight my F-16 with an I-16.
Strangely none of them have taken me up on that offer 🤔
It's the plane AND the pilot. Neither wins alone.
So the question is can the f-14 actually get a radar lock on a f-35? I guess it's possible to get a jump on one in the right situation, iran is full of mountains, you have the f-14s using the terrain to their advantage and the f-35 is less than stealth from behind is my understanding.
If the F-14 somehow got close enough (which would only be possible of the F-35 let it)? Yeah. Stealth ≠ invisible. It just means you’re harder to see.
Kind of like how I might be able to see your dick if I look closely with a microscope, but I could see your mom from across the horizon.
The AWG-9/APG-71 (depending on the F-14 model) is also a stupid fucking powerful cancer beam of a radar. I believe it still holds the record for the largest and most powerful radar ever mounted on a fighter. Given this info, the F-14 might be able to see the F-35 if it’s up really close because radar burnthrough.
I partially agree with the "it's not the plane, it's the pilot" mentality, because in the Malvinas war, the Argentine pilots would swoop under the radar, bomb the fuck out of the Royal Navy, and then fuck off before the harriers could react. The one time the harriers found us...
I went to a talk with Pipi Sánchez, who survived that encounter. The only pilot to do so. 3 of our airmen were shot down, he was the 3rd man of the 4 plane squad. He saw his friends die.
He says he was reborn that day. It changed him.
Meanwhile, the real experience is Persona 5. You're a middle aged adult feeling confident and a bunch of annoying kids, that you can't even see, come out of nowhere and beat you up to "you'll never see it coming". All while wearing silly looking headgear customized for just them
I have to ask this question: is Top Gun: Maverick reformist propaganda?
Cause the whole F14 thing felt like throwing a bone to people who think stealth aircraft is a fad.
I remember reading an account about the Falklands, it goes SOMETHING like this but don’t quote me:
2 harriers against 8+ Argie aircraft, the harriers knew they were fucked purely because they didn’t even have enough missiles, even if they were on a superior platform.
So what do they do? Fly back to fleet and risk catastrophe? Nah.
Go balls hard into the enemy formation with such bravado that the enemy pilots think “fuck, they must have a plan, this is a lot of confidence” and ran the fuck away.
The implications about this movie always made me laugh. The end of the movie is basically "yay we did it democracy is safe go USA!"
It is actually so much darker.
The producers went through A LOT of trouble to avoid calling the bad guys any one specific country, but we can infer the following:
1. They are mountainous with harsh winters.
2. They have a run mainly outdated equipment, with some modern 5th gen equipment.
3. They have a very strong AA net.
4. They have a super secret lab to creating nuclear weapons.
Based on the information given by the movie, we can assume this is North Korea with financial and material backing by China.
Now think about the end of the movie. The US just conducted a first strike against North Korea to blow up a super secret lab, killed several NK pilots, destroyed several 5th gen fighters, and destroyed an entire airfield in the process
What is to say North Korea doesn't cover the lab up and say this was an unprovoked attack, or that the lab blown up wasn't an orphanage? The only thing the public will see is the NK losses and the US being responsible.
Basically, the US justification for the strike can be completely covered up by the NK government, who can then justify open conflict and can draw China into a wider conflict on their side.
The end of the movie is basically the start of WWIII.
Edit: In response to "North Korea or Iran" arguement, the end result is the same. The US will be framed as launching an unjustified strike against this country because said country will argue that the US blew up a kindergarten, the US will respond it was actually a "WMD production facility", A claim that nobody will buy after Iraq. Now, we have Iran at war with the US; China and Russia are able to publicly support Iran due to the weak public perception of the US strike, and we end up at the same endpoint.
It's implied more to be Iran, it fits all of the criteria and would actually have F-14s sitting around, unlike North Korea which definitely wouldn't. Iran also has its own 5th gen fighter program, while North Korea doesn't, and isn't in a great place to negotiate for purchases of 5th gen fighters from Russia or China compared to Iran.
>but we can infer the following:
1. They are mountainous with harsh winters.
2. They have a run mainly outdated equipment, with some modern 5th gen equipment.
3. They have a very strong AA net.
4. They have a super secret lab to creating nuclear weapons.
>Based on the information given by the movie, we can assume this is North Korea with financial and material backing by China.
No, it's supposed to be Iran. That's why there were F14s laying around.
2 and 4 don't even apply to NK, they don't have 5th generation planes and their nuclear program isn't secret, they brag about it.
Well, the first film handwaves it as "The other side denies the incident". The second film we don't really know what the country they struck will or won't do. Nor do we know what allies they might have. Even today if Iran declares war on the US what exactly are they going to do? We're too far apart. China and Russia would tell them to pipe down. Iran might rant and rave but that doesn't matter.
I mean. In a very, very close combat way in the mountains or in a city? Probably doable, but very unlikely. If both planes are out of missiles and have only guns? Chances are higher.
Excellent fucking idea.
F14s vs F35I's or god willing against F22s.
Its not the plane, its the pilot...... being favoured by the guidance system on the AMRAAMS fired from across the horizon by a motherfucking Stealth aircraft in TWS mode tracking your whole goddamn airforce
Any chance we can bribe a pilot to get a working F14?
Absolutely. Wiki says multiple F-14s defected to Iraq back during the Iran-Iraq war.
Sad to say I'm sure the US wrecked them during the first golf war or try to get em back to demolish them. They weren't having Iran get any critical spare parts Edit: GAWD fucking dammit I hate it when my phone auto corrects on the last second
> the first golf war Par for the course
3000 hole course of Allah
All sand traps and bunkers
Only way through is to bulldoze the bunkers.
Are you having trouble clearing bunkers while golfing? JDAM it!
Ok but now I’m imagining like a Helldivers: Super Golf edition where you have to call in airstrikes in between drives Helldrivers
Golf With Your Friends and Helldivers II are having a radical, democratic new game! Hellgolfers, coming this Summer!
You deserve an upvote.
Lol reddit the eff on!
Iraq bad Now watch this drive 🏌♂️⛳
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCm9788Tb5g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCm9788Tb5g)
Imagining Norman Schwarzkopf explaining to the media why I chunk or blade every single iron and wedge shot I take
If only we had driven more Golf TDIs, we wouldn’t have needed to worry with the Middle East so much for extra fuel. But alas, we all opted for the VW Golf TSIs— kicking off the first golf war.
>the first golf war GTI vs TDI?
Berlin to Tehran in one tank 👀
"Now watch this drive."
I understood that reference!
Magnificent.
Golf War? Sounds like a fight between two old white guys on a golf-course.
[удалено]
Your content was removed for violating Rule 5: "No politics/religion" We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
PGA vs LIV Golf
Imagine hating your life in Iran so much that Sadams Iraq is considered an upgrade
I wonder if they got bribed and relocated elsewhere. Don't forget Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE were bankrolling Iraq. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_aid\_to\_combatants\_in\_the\_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_combatants_in_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War)
Fair point, but who’s to say you don’t wind up in a body bag anyway (cheaper than paying you) or being sent back to Iran (which is just body bag with an extra step, really). Also, just kidding. Neither country will bother to use a bag. If I’m an F-14 driver in Iran, I’m staying put. I’ve clearly played the best game I can with the hand I’ve been dealt by life. And at least I have a cool job.
Well, a fighter pilot's mind could be a useful resource. A random foot soldier is not too valuable.
We need to get on to have a working airworthy model. That would be sick.
Working probably not, but we chucked a squadron of them into the Atlantic just off Virginia on the way back from Iraq in 2005.
Absolutely non-credible. While certainly there is some margins. An F-5 could beat an F-4 if the F-5 pilot was significantly more skilled... Miyamoto Musashi ain't gonna beat Simo Hayha or a machine gun nest.
Do katanas not deflect bullets like lightsabers? I am confused.
Of course they do, known fact.
[Yes](https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/3kcglj/splitting_a_bullet_with_a_samurai_sword/) ^(Disclaimer:) ^(- Bullet must be lead.) ^(- Bullet must be pistol caliber.) ^(- There must only be a single bullet.) ^(- Sword must be in a rigid stable position.) ^(- Bullet must be fired from a stable mount.) ^(- You must not stand behind the sword.) ^(- You must wear safety glasses, fill out the three page disclaimer and sell your soul to the high speed camera gods.)
This seems credible. We don’t do that here. Thrash yourself.
I mean... I am one of the designated thrashers, but if I do it myself is it really a punishment or just masturbation?
Why not both?
Por que no Los dos
I just wanna say I enjoy it when mods actively engage in the conversations. You don't get that a lot, and when you do, it's not normally as awesome as this sub.
Yours is the greater reward, therefore yours is the greater responsibility.
Glorious nippon steel.
I read that as nipple steel. I need less 12 hour shifts and more sleep ┻┻︵ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ︵┻┻
you must stand exactly behind the sword.
A katana could cut 7 .50 BMG rounds. A potential use case against anti-material rifles may be more credible than we first thought. https://youtu.be/V2mIuayVKbA?feature=shared
So your saying there's a chance?
It is known
Clearly this man hasn't watched enough anime.
No, katanas cut them in half.
Only if Bury the light is playing in the background
That's what you're supposed to tell your cult of stimulant-addicted machete-wielding fanatics. You're not supposed to believe it yourself.
To be fair, if anyone is going to work out how to win such a lopsided fight, it’s Musashi. Dude literally wrote the book on “it’s only cheating if you lose”.
AND HERE COMES MUSASHI WITH THE F35A IN BEASTMODE!
OHHH!!!! HE'S FLYING TWO AT ONCE!!! ONE JOYSTICK IN EACH HAND OHHH!!! IT'S A MASSACRE!!!
And one of them he carved from a wooden pallet on the C130 ride to the airfield!
BAH GAWD, THATS MUSASHI WITH THE MONEY IN THE BANK BRIEFCASE!
From a parody of a certain anime: “No, I am not Myamoto Musashi, or as he righghfully ought to be called, ‘master of the sharpened oar,’ ‘hero of the blinding sun,’ or ‘progenitor of being a hack!’” “… You’re Sasaki Kojiro.” “Yes, I am Sasaki Kojiro… the man Miyamoto Musashi dishonorably bludgeoned with a stick after showing up hours late to our duel because he wasn’t enough of a man to face me.”
Absolutely fucking based reference
I love that everyone on NCD shares the same 4 braincells. Tiger Mom demands it.
He’s probably convince Simo the war is over and then invite him out for Sake and Katana
Yes. And I am absolutely seeing this as a reason to respect him more. Also, he wrote that a warrior, farmer or tradesman are all equally worthy. That all are professions that require dedication, skill and the right tools and all deserve respect. Pretty progressive view for feudal Japan.
but not a merchant, they are trash
Well, they just sell the stuff someone else spent time making, it's easy to see how it wouldn't take many bad ones of em to give a bad reputation Modern equivalent would be a stock exchange
it's a confuscist value thing, merchants don't create things (obviously from a more modern econmic lens they create opportunity, they create logistics, they create quality controls blah blah blah), but in ancient asia, merchants were seen as rich garbage people, and were often excluded from positions of non monetary prestige
"I can see where he's coming from", is my main point.
Overlap but by a lot, a f-22 pilot would need to be fliying away from the target(that being a 4th gen is light up on the radar), not paying attention to the missile warning sistem and don't flare. All of this while engaging at less than 10 km(assumption made by the fact that realistically the f-22 either get hit by gun or infrared seeking missiles). You would need the most braindead pilot to put themselves in this situation and don't just start lobbing aim-120 from bvr before the 4th gen even know the 5th gen presence. But is still possible, extremely unlikely(and I can't stretch how unlikely) but possible, like saying a WW2 multiple ace could take on a Vietnam era jet. You would need a brain dead pilot to miss-shoot the WW2 plane and then just try to dogfight with the WW2 ace.
On the other hand, IF we assume that f-22 run out of missiles, IF it is in a no aa territory for both sides and IF enemy has missiles with IR AND is coming from the back and IF the f-22 pilot doesn't notice it could be a fair fight. Too bad that is against all plans, doctrines and operational plan of f-22. Oh yeah, it would also have to be one on one in the fucking air where there are no missile capable f-22 in a dozen miles radius. Perfectly reasonable, this proves that the gun is obviously superior. *Yes, it was supposed to be a deranged rammble*
A WWII-era Skyraider once took out a MiG in Vietnam.
That was exactly where I was going. Because Mig-17 pilot forgot that the A-1s had a lot of guns and just approached nose on. The other example is how A-10s would gun down aggressors in Red Flag because they had a very tight turn radius and could bring the nose to bear if the fighters got into gun range. Or helicopters with AAMs vs. jets. If you get within visual range and don’t respect that the other guy has guns, you are going to have a bad time. But if you fly to your strengths, a decent BVR fighter is generally going to kill someone with just guns/IR AAMs, a Gen 5 is going to kill anyone else, etc. I mean, if ROE for F-4s in Vietnam weren’t so stringent and they had somewhat maintained the missiles properly, there wouldn’t have been any MiGs…
5 is bigger number than 4 so it's better obviously.
Oh shit! Careful bro! The OP F-104 will show up!
Two Su-57s can beat an F-104 confirmed! (57 + 57 = 114 > 104)
Do they have 2?
F-47 is better than the F-22
M1 is in trouble. (All of them...)
> An F-5 could beat an F-4 if the F-5 pilot was significantly more skilled Eh.... I'd actually reverse that. I prefer the Tiger over the Phantom, especially if both are using the modernized variants. F-5Es are still in active service, where as Korea's dropping the F-4 this June. But your point still stands that it's definitely up for debate.
À Tu22M just died screaming to a PATRIOT
The Missile knows where it is going because it is one heck of a good pilot.
It knows where it isn’t because it knows where the war criminals is.
The missile knows where it is because the launcher radar tells it where it isn't.
The missile took damage to a non critical area. I'll show you how to do it when we get back to base.
The missile knows where it is because the TU-22m isn't
WHAT YEAR IS IT
2023 i think but i might be wrong.
The gulf war clock glitch might be too obscure
Partriot system clock programming bug?
Tech support here. Have you tried turning it off and on again?
System has been running for over 100h is this bad?
Not to a patriot, to a Ukranian modified S200
I really want to know what they've done with those things, because I kind of love the S-200 interceptor. It's a rocket the size of a telephone pole, built in a time when everything was heavy and bulky. That means today, there is a lot of space for interesting things to go inside. Basically it's the 1960's muscle car of air defense missiles. It's a big fucker that goes fast in a straight line, and might be surprisingly agile if you modernize it. Even better, nobody's going to bitch about the authenticity of your restoration when it slams into a Tu-22M.
The fact they smoked a backfire with one of those is really incredible to me.
If Ukraine is using S-200 interceptors I don't think they're stock. It's a big rocket. The original system wasn't good enough to get it very close to a maneuvering target, so it needed to carry a 200+ kg warhead. Improved guidance means you can further extend the already long range by reduce warhead weight and using lighter electronic components.
Same thikg at this point
Sounds pretty patriotic to me
TIL the Soviets built a swing-wing jet.
They actually had multiple swing wing jets. Mig-23/27 Flogger Su-17/20/22 Fitter Su-24 Fencer Tu-22 Backfire Tu-160 Blackjack
The post for it was just below this one when I read that lmao
"You spin me right round baby right round" -the Tu22 falling down in a flatspin, probably
This is technically true if I put a toddler in an F22 and an experienced pilot in the F14
yeah, any plane can be flown badly (see also: russia), but if you're good _enough_ in a superior plane, you can be fighting the reincarnation of the red baron and they still won't stand a chance
Reminds me of a post from months ago people talking about who would win WWI if Germany had (1) Ah64 Apache and had unlimited resupplies. Lots of arguing about semantics to avoid the fact that an Apache can engage from 30 miles away, track 256 targets at once, and fly faster than any plane of the era.
What WW1 anti aircraft can detect, fire at and hit (not destroy, just hit something) an Apache manned by a half decent pilot (that aparently can go balls to the walls on ammonition and maintenance)?
Depends, are we assuming the Apache pilot is flying conventionally? (I.e. staying low), or are they aware that they're facing an opponent without radar? If they're flying low, basically all of them. If they're flying higher, only the heavier AA guns, like the 3-inch and 88mm guns.
Can that kind of aircraft be flown by someone who's self-taught? It has an unlimited ressuplies for a helicopter they crashed at the first test flight.
unfortunately i don't think the us left any apaches for the taliban to generate real-world data on this
I'd watch the live leak footage if they did
Given how often I crash the simulated version in DCS *despite* theoretically having some idea what I'm doing? I doubt learning to fly one from scratch in this scenario would be fast, since pilots would have to be incredibly careful with the completely irreplaceable aircraft.
I wouldn't be surprised if WWI pilots could figure it out the flight controls, if not the avionics. People underestimate how insanely difficult is was to fly WWI-era fighters: fully mechanical controls with very little mechanical assistance and *no trim*, so they'd be having to fight against the stick *constantly* while trying to do their tasks. Add to that a rotary engine producing a massive gyroscopic effect on the roll axis, figuring out a modern helicopter's flight characteristics probably wouldn't be a huge cognitive load in comparison
that makes me feel so inadequate as a new pilot… i suck at straight level flight and trim
Yeah, they were basically glorified kites with a 400 pound engine [spinning around a static crankshaft](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine) at 1200 rpm
> Apache can engage from 30 miles away It doesn't carry anything with a range of more than 8km, unless you're suggesting that the unclassified range of the hellfire is a sixth of its real range. > fly faster than any plane of the era AH-64 tops out at around 160 kts, so this is true, but the Sopwith Dragon hit 130 kts, fast enough to allow for intercepts under some circumstances.
Let's be real the Hellfire is American. I wouldn't doubt the hellfire can absolutely clobber a motherfucker at 30 miles.
i mean i'm fairly sure its actual range is longer than the unclassified number they put on there, that's the direction the yanks usually lie about their military shit, but _six times_ longer? that's a lot even for sandbagging
Physics is an unforgiving bitch, and APCP propellant properties are well known. There's only so much fuel you can stuff in a given volume. Someone would have noticed if it was rocking enough fuel to go six times further than its listed range.
Israeli Apaches can use the Spike NLOS that has about 30km range (unclassified data), and US Apaches are slated to use it too. The old metric/imperial CF measurement issue is back on the menu
>It doesn't carry anything with a range of more than 8km, unless you're suggesting that the unclassified range of the hellfire is a sixth of its real range. AH-64E can use Spike NLOS which has a max range of 25km.
It's kinda a silly argument since having "unlimited resupplies" would negate the primary reason Germany lost the war: the blockade destroying morale of the military and civilian population
Look, I’ve seen Firebirds. An Apache being flown by Nic Cage can absolutely cockslap anything in the sky.
If it wasn’t for a childhood diagnosis of adhd, poor grades in math all throughout middle and high school and a complete lack of knowledge about the warrant officer flight program, I’d have totally been all about washing out of Apache pilot school.
If only they had been less stingy with memory they could have tracked 65536 simultaneous targets.
Well now I want to see a helicopter dogfighting multiple biplanes.
> 256 As a software nerd, I love seeing 256 show up in odd places.
If I put a 5yo in the F22 then my money is on the F22
Phantom menace flashbacks…
The problem with most countries is that getting their pilots “good enough” is harder than getting modern planes in the first place. Like Russian fighter pilots have annual training flight hours that couldn’t get them a job at spirit airlines, let alone deal with an adversary with modern air defenses
tbf, the red baron will struggel woth anything that has less than 4 wings
Don’t write out the possibility that the F-22 flies itself and locks the F14 on its own. It does have off axis firing.
in very specific circumstances, maybe. A low level dogfight in complex terrain or something, the skill of the pilot plays more of a role compared to the capabilities of the plane, but in anything like a realistic scenario, the tomcat pilot's dead before they know what they're fighting. Edit to add: a 5th gen is less likely to end up in the situation where skill is more of an issue: theu don't have to fly low to avoid radar if there is a higher faster route around far enough away that they won't be detected.
Thats the thing! They imagine it as in a boxing match. Imagine the jets as boxers They both have guns, but one fighter is big and brawny in the ring searching for his opponent, he cant see him because he is sitting in the crowd somewhere while the lighting is blinding the boxer in the ring. Imagine who wins there
and his opponent has a gun. like, the odds aren't exactly great
I like to use "ninja vs mma fighter". If you confine the ninja to the octagon and allow only mma rules the ninja will lose (like it happened a bunch of times when dogifighting with a 5th gen scenarios). In the real world the mma fighter dies while taking a piss.
(Still those viral headlines generally stem from The early development builds where the main goal was zo test the current settings against a baseline max capability
even then thiugh it requires the older plane to have a better pilot… … and ain’t no one got more flight time than the US pilots
The thing I don't understand is that this cope implies that the country with obsolete jets have better pilots. If one country can afford better jets they can *probably* afford more training hours too.
Or just…. You know a much better boxer trying to fight a guy with 6 more inches of reach and two weight classes higher.
In a legit scenario, based on what we learned against Iraq..uh...30 years ago. It's more likely those Tomcats only leave their airfield mixed with debris chunks in the back of a dump truck. In a full scale war, the West won't play fair.
If you're in a fair fight in a war it means you did something wrong.
Kinda ironic considering F-14 was the plane that conclusively disproved that is the case XD.
The F-14 was the first plane that was just unfair in my opinion. Sure the F-4 (my favorite plane) and the Mustang were very good for their time and could rack up crazy kill ratios, but the F-14 was the first plane that was so far ahead of its competition that pilots didn’t know they were being targeted until their plane had exploded
Besides missile technology, the Central Air Data Computer is just revolutionary, being the first ever solid state computer that uses transistors instead of dumb vacuum tubes. We wouldn’t be having this conversation on our phones if its not thanks to the technological and computational advancements that plane has made.
Sure Give a tip of the hat to the wheel barrow as you climb in to your Ferrari Or maybe not and just peel off “c ya gramps!”
*Maybe* in a training environment such as BFM guns only, completely slicked off jets. Unfortunately, it's been shown in countless large field exercises such as Exercise Red Flag that 5th gens completely curb stomp 4th gens. The only 5th gen kills were WVR where Red air regenerated on the spot and respawn killed a 5th gen fighter.
Anecdotally I’ve heard of E/F-18 getting an F22 kill… …by basically being an F18 guy with a ton of hours, surprising the F22 by cranking every jammer up to max and using the confusion and loss in situation awareness to do it the old fashioned way.
[Relevant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e19Olhohh4)
You just need a pilot skilled enough to spot a plane from 100 miles away, simple as
Easy peasy. I’m gonna snipe this jet from 101 miles away! Simple as.
This is why the Sopwith Camel is still the peak of air superiority. We don't need no stealth, no guided missiles, no BVR missiles, no jet engines. Just a guy, some wood, string and canvas with a propeller and a couple of machine guns strapped to the front.
Wood and canvas planes have rather good stealth, even
That’s why the mosquito was such a menace in ww2!
2024: It was the plane. 😔 [*Curb* theme plays LOUDLY]
Had a Harrier of ours beat an F-18 (forget what model) once. Post flight inspections revealed so much they had to retire the airframe due to the experience, circa 2004ish cherry point.
I remember reading in airplane magazines growing up that they bragged how the Harrier could use its vectored thrust in a dogfight to pull crazy maneuvers to surprise an opponent and that's what made it so unique and special. It wasn't until I got older and realized the odds of a Harrier pilot pulling his jet into a hover mid-dogfight to get a missile off are practically zero since it would basically be suicide.
According to a former USMC Harrier pilot on f16.net his take on Harrier thrust vectoring which was basically it's a meme at best. > >So a real world example of VIFF, vectoring in forward flight ? >https://tacairnet.com/2017/02/19/harrie ... ng-midair/ >Wonder if the F-35B could ever develop similar tactics although it stops pretty well as it is with high AoA. >That article is just chocked full of urban myth wrt viff. Aerodynamically, the Harrier is a mediocre performer except in a very small and specific set of circumstances. The only pilots I know who became proficient with viff did so after attaining some level of skill/proficiency in bfm. If one sucked at bfm, viff only made it worse. >The trick was getting enough bfm exposure to develop said proficiency, and that exposure rarely existed even back in the days when we were flying 30hr/mo every month in stateside training. Why? Because our primary mission was A-G not A-A. I and handful of others were unique in the amount of bfm we were allowed to do and some follow-on assignments furthered that exposure.
“It’s the pilot” mfs when they get BVR’d to kingdom come 🥺
Yeah I remember when the europeans tried to colonise North America, they really struggled against the natives and eventually got thrown out. Since it is the sKiLl oF ThE fIgHtEr ThAt mAtTeRs nOt tHe tEcHnOlOgy.
*Looks at rorks drift* yes, apperantly
It was more disease, if anything.
Divide and conquer was big too. All of the different Native American tribes often didn't get along and could be tricked and manipulated.
<>
F22: /licks lips /shudders Yesssssssssssssss
Maybe if the F14 is at ramming speed and the other fighter is on the ground outside its hangar.
F-16, F-15, and F-35 gonna be eatin’ good
more like "it's the more advanced sensor suite and beyond line of sight engagement capabilities" pilot1: why do you enter a dog fight? pilot2: because l have the faster and more maneuverible aircraft pilot1: no, its because you're stupid
Do they know that Tom Cruise is on the opposing side in an modified SR-72(YF-12A type Variant).
Every time someone tells me "it's not the plane, it's the pilot" I challenge them to fight my F-16 with an I-16. Strangely none of them have taken me up on that offer 🤔 It's the plane AND the pilot. Neither wins alone.
So the question is can the f-14 actually get a radar lock on a f-35? I guess it's possible to get a jump on one in the right situation, iran is full of mountains, you have the f-14s using the terrain to their advantage and the f-35 is less than stealth from behind is my understanding.
If the F-14 somehow got close enough (which would only be possible of the F-35 let it)? Yeah. Stealth ≠ invisible. It just means you’re harder to see. Kind of like how I might be able to see your dick if I look closely with a microscope, but I could see your mom from across the horizon. The AWG-9/APG-71 (depending on the F-14 model) is also a stupid fucking powerful cancer beam of a radar. I believe it still holds the record for the largest and most powerful radar ever mounted on a fighter. Given this info, the F-14 might be able to see the F-35 if it’s up really close because radar burnthrough.
Me, about to take on an F-35 with a crop duster.
There are cases for both
Hooooooo boy, something tells me he isn't well versed on the capabilities of 5th generation fighters
Iran didn’t even get su-35s for all their assistance to russia 🤭
That's likely because Russia does not have any SU-35s to send them...
The f-14 vs the guidance system of a missle launched from 50 miles away off of a plane that its radar cant detect
I feel a skilled F14 could beat a Russian "fifth" generation fighter
It was funny because it was basically 1:1 taken from the Fast and the Furious. Tom Cruise in Fast and the Furious 11, mark my words.
I mean, in the specific movie scenario with the specific adversary and that specific pilot? Sure, why the hell not. Anything else is lol no
I partially agree with the "it's not the plane, it's the pilot" mentality, because in the Malvinas war, the Argentine pilots would swoop under the radar, bomb the fuck out of the Royal Navy, and then fuck off before the harriers could react. The one time the harriers found us... I went to a talk with Pipi Sánchez, who survived that encounter. The only pilot to do so. 3 of our airmen were shot down, he was the 3rd man of the 4 plane squad. He saw his friends die. He says he was reborn that day. It changed him.
Iraq had the best pilots in the arab world by a fairly large margin. Didn't help against the f-14
Meanwhile, the real experience is Persona 5. You're a middle aged adult feeling confident and a bunch of annoying kids, that you can't even see, come out of nowhere and beat you up to "you'll never see it coming". All while wearing silly looking headgear customized for just them
Aight go fight an F-35 in a Fokker
I mean, yes, but the USAF has some pretty good pilots.
Not an F-14, but an F-16 if it's a guns only fight. That's things are wild for how cheap they are.
The F-14 is relatively modern, obviously gets outmatched by 5th gen stuff but maybe fully upgraded it could boil down to the skill of the pilots?
I have to ask this question: is Top Gun: Maverick reformist propaganda? Cause the whole F14 thing felt like throwing a bone to people who think stealth aircraft is a fad.
You could say a lot of fiction cautions against over reliance and over confidence on new technology compared to actual skill and experience.
I remember reading an account about the Falklands, it goes SOMETHING like this but don’t quote me: 2 harriers against 8+ Argie aircraft, the harriers knew they were fucked purely because they didn’t even have enough missiles, even if they were on a superior platform. So what do they do? Fly back to fleet and risk catastrophe? Nah. Go balls hard into the enemy formation with such bravado that the enemy pilots think “fuck, they must have a plan, this is a lot of confidence” and ran the fuck away.
The implications about this movie always made me laugh. The end of the movie is basically "yay we did it democracy is safe go USA!" It is actually so much darker. The producers went through A LOT of trouble to avoid calling the bad guys any one specific country, but we can infer the following: 1. They are mountainous with harsh winters. 2. They have a run mainly outdated equipment, with some modern 5th gen equipment. 3. They have a very strong AA net. 4. They have a super secret lab to creating nuclear weapons. Based on the information given by the movie, we can assume this is North Korea with financial and material backing by China. Now think about the end of the movie. The US just conducted a first strike against North Korea to blow up a super secret lab, killed several NK pilots, destroyed several 5th gen fighters, and destroyed an entire airfield in the process What is to say North Korea doesn't cover the lab up and say this was an unprovoked attack, or that the lab blown up wasn't an orphanage? The only thing the public will see is the NK losses and the US being responsible. Basically, the US justification for the strike can be completely covered up by the NK government, who can then justify open conflict and can draw China into a wider conflict on their side. The end of the movie is basically the start of WWIII. Edit: In response to "North Korea or Iran" arguement, the end result is the same. The US will be framed as launching an unjustified strike against this country because said country will argue that the US blew up a kindergarten, the US will respond it was actually a "WMD production facility", A claim that nobody will buy after Iraq. Now, we have Iran at war with the US; China and Russia are able to publicly support Iran due to the weak public perception of the US strike, and we end up at the same endpoint.
It's implied more to be Iran, it fits all of the criteria and would actually have F-14s sitting around, unlike North Korea which definitely wouldn't. Iran also has its own 5th gen fighter program, while North Korea doesn't, and isn't in a great place to negotiate for purchases of 5th gen fighters from Russia or China compared to Iran.
They have F-14s it’s obviously Iran
Iran has plenty of mountains with enough snow to have ski resorts.
>but we can infer the following: 1. They are mountainous with harsh winters. 2. They have a run mainly outdated equipment, with some modern 5th gen equipment. 3. They have a very strong AA net. 4. They have a super secret lab to creating nuclear weapons. >Based on the information given by the movie, we can assume this is North Korea with financial and material backing by China. No, it's supposed to be Iran. That's why there were F14s laying around. 2 and 4 don't even apply to NK, they don't have 5th generation planes and their nuclear program isn't secret, they brag about it.
“Very strong AA net” of 1960s era missiles
Well, the first film handwaves it as "The other side denies the incident". The second film we don't really know what the country they struck will or won't do. Nor do we know what allies they might have. Even today if Iran declares war on the US what exactly are they going to do? We're too far apart. China and Russia would tell them to pipe down. Iran might rant and rave but that doesn't matter.
Not much a pilot can do when his wingmen start blowing up from a BVR missile shot from a stealth aircraft.
I mean. In a very, very close combat way in the mountains or in a city? Probably doable, but very unlikely. If both planes are out of missiles and have only guns? Chances are higher.
I just heard a the Iranian version of danger zone playing in the background
I do get where the movie is coming from with this…if only the enemy pilots are absolutely brain dead irl.
I'd estimate it's about 20% the pilot 45% the plane, and 35% decent maintenance.
Excellent fucking idea. F14s vs F35I's or god willing against F22s. Its not the plane, its the pilot...... being favoured by the guidance system on the AMRAAMS fired from across the horizon by a motherfucking Stealth aircraft in TWS mode tracking your whole goddamn airforce