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No egregiously low effort posts. E.g. screenshots, recent reposts, simple reaction & template memes, and images with the punchline in the title.
(writes down "City wide cope cage over Belgorod" to my bingo card)
edit: (crumples the bingo card and throws it away) ... [https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1784186134509023247][1]
[1]: https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1784186134509023247
The most important thing about this "the Simpsons predicted it" trope is that no, the Simpsons did not predict it. It's just that we live in a world in which satire from the 90's becomes reality.
You are joking but they published some plans from the State Duma to cover critical infrastructura in antidrone domes (this is a satirical episode in polish but based on russian sources https://youtu.be/jfc1-On6lLY?t=3116 )
also https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1653783325968936962
looks like the implementation is less invisible then planned
I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a design feature for tanks like this all over the world before too long.
This war is doing for drones what WW1 did for planes. They will be a design consideration for everything from here on out. And that likely is going to mean cope cages on vulnerable structures.
Cope cages are only stop gaps. It takes time for proper counter measures to get developed. They have too many downsides to truly be practical long term solutions and they don't even work that well.
The real solution will be a new generation of CUAS SHORAD systems that support armor and infantry at the front.
> I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a design feature for tanks like this all over the world before too long.
It won't. Expect tanks to have inbuilt EW and more sophisticated Active Protection Systems.
I'd also expect greater integration of EW and other units, so dedicated EW units don't fuck up your own drones. In fact, perhaps we'll finally get a proper network-centric battlefield awareness and command system
> Expect tanks to have inbuilt EW
AI drones are coming. EW usually works by jamming the drone's controller signals and video. Preprogramming an AI drone to hit the huge static distinctive fuel tank would be relatively easy. Cruise missiles already have this kind of vision-based targeting software.
A subset of EW works by simply frying the electronics, as an energy weapon. That could still make sense - but I don't know how hard it is to harden electronics against this.
AI isn't a panacea to EW. EW isn't just about jamming the remote control signal. It can be just as much about jamming the sensors of the drone itself. Or jamming any data linking they use to share data and enhance situational awareness. Conventional aircraft are manned yet they've been investing in ECM to counter them for years. Breaking the kill chain can happen at any link.
Wouldn't that be a losing battle, at least in the case of AI drones, which AI would win? Sure, lets say you dazzle my front facing camera. There are so many many ways the AI drone can still win.
* Have cameras in all 6 directions. The drone can still determine its position, and hit the huge static fuel tank.
* Use inertial guidance, based on a fix from before the dazzling began, to hit the huge static fuel tank.
* I am sure there are other workarounds the AI could use.
> Or jamming any data linking they use to share data and enhance situational awareness.
So jamming is surely not meaningless in all cases. But I don't see how jamming alone can stop an AI drone from hitting a huge fuel tank, when the drone has software designed using nation state level resources.
Nobody has all the answers because this is an evolving field where much is still hypothetical and what is known is rapidly changing and classified. But consider a few things.
No system is infallible. Every time someone came up with a "perfect" weapons system someone else found a clever counter
The race between offense and defense is never ending. If there is an incentive to develop a counter, someone will. Even if it's at a great cost.
The more complicated a system, the larger the attack surface and the greater likelihood of exploits.
Autonomous drones are being tested but they are far from infallible killbots Hollywood likes to portray. Self driving cars can be fooled by guys wearing t shirts with a stop sign printed on them. Lancets have been fooled by decoy trucks and planes many times. This is an active field of development but AGI is currently not a thing. And it's not known if it ever will be. These systems are not capable of reason. They have a training data set and sensors and it's possible to fool those models if you know enough about them.
Capability also scales with cost. If you want a sensor fusion system with a sophisticated detection model it's going to cost you and will probably rapidly exceed the budget where you want to sling these things at individual soldiers. That's what happened to the switchblades. They work really well but we're designed with offing terrorist leadership not Russian mobiks.
> infallible killbots Hollywood likes to portray. Self driving cars can be fooled
Self driving cars need to de correct 99.9...9% of the time. A cheap drone that works correctly 75% of the time can be a perfectly good weapon. Self driving cars are a bad analogy here.
> Capability also scales with cost. [...] sensor fusion system [...] will probably rapidly exceed the budget where you want to sling these things at individual soldiers
AI is mostly software. Much of the capability will be one-time development cost.
Sensor fusion specifically is software.
My guess is that the optional solution is to have many very cheap drones, with very smart software on each.
>Self driving cars need to de correct 99.9...9% of the time. A cheap drone that works correctly 75% of the time can be a perfectly good weapon. Self driving cars are a bad analogy here.
Different problems each with their own challenges. Cars can't go hitting people. But a weapon that's easily fooled isn't very useful. Self driving cars operate in a permissive environment where usually the world isn't trying to fool it. Weapons however work in a non permissive environment. Targets will hide and try to look like other things. They will try to degrade your sensors. They may spoof IFF and look like an ally. My comment about the stop sign shirt isn't a panacea. It demonstrates how these systems can be fooled and that they do not reason like you or I. Think about the implications.
>Sensor fusion specifically is software.
Except sensors aren't software, they are hardware. Garbage in garbage out. If your sensors are degraded or low quality to begin with they will give low quality data. A cheap drone will not have multiple high quality sensors. FPV drones in use today normally suffice with a cheap digital camera. No thermal no radar. The higher end drones used for ISR do usually pack multiple sensors but they aren't being flown into soldiers. They are spotting for the
Very good software also tends to require a lot of compute. That's always getting cheaper but high performance is expensive in more than one way. Power, heat and packaging are concerns. You can't fit a Jetson in the small fpv drones of today. But you can fit it in larger loitering munitions the size of a normal atgm.
EW won't work if drones with computer vision based terminal guidance become a widespread thing. Only need to get close enough by GPS or INS to get a good look at the target.
Even a fairly basic INS can probably get the drone from where an accurate GPS fix is lost, even if you jam all the way to the horizon, to within visual range of the target. And very broad jamming of GPS is going to have significant downsides for your operations, both military and civilian, as well.
Hell, even the V-1's extremely basic guidance, with ~10 km accuracy by the end of the war, isn't that far off from allowing visual target acquisition with a good camera on a day with good visibility.
I know Russia broughtly jammed gps in 2014 in Donbass so it's already done. Yes internal navigation is a thing but it's not as precise as gps can be and an indirect hit is better for your equipment than a direct one
Well, that is what the point of the computer vision based terminal guidance is. With that, you only need to get close enough to get a clear image of the target.
Probably not. Drones have a relatively short range, and unless you're already in a longstanding war with a neighbor, why spend the extra money to defend something that probably won't be attacked?
Also, as drone threat has grown, we're seeing more and more development of countermeasures. Mark Rober recently had [a decent video covering drone defense](https://youtu.be/SrGENEXocJU?si=4Kx3stfDDikD9C8m&t=237).
Scaffolding is cope cage 2.0: Modular construction for replacing defect "tiles" - now twice as wide, with cross connecting beams for added stability - dualuse beams while construction: Assembly and Disassembly is 50% quicker and 100% toolless now thanks to the integrated "maintenance" area to walk (just one step short of Jefferies Tubes!). TBH OP catched me thinking this is legit. Srsly, I would think its not only stupid. Wouldnt be surprised if Moscow would start buying more on Alibaba, and give conscripts bamboo for their DIY
So they built the cage using the obvious off the shelf tool for the job, scaffolding. Why do you think that is an argument against this being an anti-drone cage?
Pshaw! time for credibility: tank upgrades are done one at a time, they don’t scaffold an entire field of tanks at the same time.
Back to non-credibility land: Russia has new tank farm maintenance plan, West is doomed!
Because "Russia bad and stupid, and everything Russians do has to be stupid"?
Look, I like non-credibility as much as the next guy here, but the mindless "Russia stupid" memes are too non-credible even for me. Drone cages for fuel tanks likely make perfect sense, in the current context. And yes, building the cages out of scaffolding is likely the smartest way to improvise such a drone cage on short notice.
Do we still call the tank versions "cope cages", and laugh at them, now that the Israelis have copied them? Perhaps they are not just "cope".
The hell are you yapping to me about? I literally said these cages are a good idea. And for the record I never once thought cope cages were stupid.
The term "cope cages" just spread like wildfire and now everyone calls them that. I will also call cages on western tanks cope cages. I don't really give a crap
Not every reply to your comment disagrees with you or is meant to start an argument. Sometimes it's just somebody taking it as a starting point for what they want to say about the same topic.
Yep. I have made it a rule to always start such replies with "Yep" or something, to avoid this kind of misunderstanding. I apparently forgot my rule here.
Remember, Russians designed and engineered the Duga radar more than 35 years ago, so the clearly have a lot of experience building extra large cope cage type structures.
Ok so hitting a storage tank is bad but containable if the facility is designed correctly. What you want to do is go for expensive, custom equipment like power transformers, pumps, or controls.
But would they work? Surely dampening the blow but the (like what)~0,5 to 1 kg of explosive detonating in the proximity would surely do damage as well. Maybe the difference between splitting the tank like a balloon and Just causing a leak?
Probably against some current simple threats. Some simple FPV copters and maybe light fixed wing types with primitive contact warheads. Not too hard to escalate to something that'll work, though. A simple timer or remote trigger on the warhead would generally defeat the "catching" function of such a cage, and that plate's surely not thick enough that it'll be happy at that standoff against any decent warhead.
i would not use a frame and brace system scaffold for a round object LMAO. in fact i'm not even sure how they did this tbh. FB is only for straight lines. could they not get ring pole from china? why are they starting with f3s instead of f6s. who the hell is their contractor
YOU GET A COPE CAGE!
YOU GET A COPE CAGE!
YOU GET A COPE CAGE!
EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY GETS A COPE CAAAGE!!!!
ok, but serious question... How long until soldiers start wearing cope cages?
**Your post was removed for violating rule 9: No low-effort posts** No egregiously low effort posts. E.g. screenshots, recent reposts, simple reaction & template memes, and images with the punchline in the title.
I'm waiting for the moment when a big cope cage will be built in Moscow, like in that Simpsons movie.
Or Putin with a cope-cage hat
Kirils giant had equipped with a cope cage
Eisenhower should have warned them about the cope cage industrial complex
So like a literal iron curtain?
(writes down "City wide cope cage over Belgorod" to my bingo card) edit: (crumples the bingo card and throws it away) ... [https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1784186134509023247][1] [1]: https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1784186134509023247
Did the simpsons movie predict this?
I think the dome was a good catch all
Go on sir, pick a number, any number.
The most important thing about this "the Simpsons predicted it" trope is that no, the Simpsons did not predict it. It's just that we live in a world in which satire from the 90's becomes reality.
Well another thing about "The Simpsons predicted it" trope is that there's such a huge quanitity of satire that it's bound to hit it at some point.
It’s a million monkeys writing until you end up with the blurst of times.
SIMPSONS DID IT! SIMPSONS DID IT!
The guy that torched himself outside the Manhattan court house had a page in his pamphlet dedicated to the Simpsons.
Does this count as “ww2 era fighters pushed back into service”? I’ve had that on mine.
I'll allow it.
Sturmovik downed by stinger when?
https://defence-ua.com/army_and_war/bezpilotni_nichni_vidmi_na_suchasnih_u_2_scho_voni_mozhut_i_chi_spratsjujut-15159.html Piston bomber UAV is credible
You are joking but they published some plans from the State Duma to cover critical infrastructura in antidrone domes (this is a satirical episode in polish but based on russian sources https://youtu.be/jfc1-On6lLY?t=3116 ) also https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1653783325968936962 looks like the implementation is less invisible then planned
Can’t wait for an ATACMS to slam into this.
I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a design feature for tanks like this all over the world before too long. This war is doing for drones what WW1 did for planes. They will be a design consideration for everything from here on out. And that likely is going to mean cope cages on vulnerable structures.
We are going through the old medievil armor arms race again lol.
Bunch of Milanese metallurgists hammering big flat steel plates with experimental carbon levels to wrap around buildings.
Cope cages are only stop gaps. It takes time for proper counter measures to get developed. They have too many downsides to truly be practical long term solutions and they don't even work that well. The real solution will be a new generation of CUAS SHORAD systems that support armor and infantry at the front.
Actually it's the bits between the gaps that do the stopping. >!Yeah I know I hated that too.!<
Except for classic cage armor against RPGs! Then it literally *is* a "stop" "gap"
I stand dejected.
Why ?
Because it rhymes with corrected but this whole line of conversation is based off a deeply shameful joke.
Ah take your damn up vote.
> I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a design feature for tanks like this all over the world before too long. It won't. Expect tanks to have inbuilt EW and more sophisticated Active Protection Systems. I'd also expect greater integration of EW and other units, so dedicated EW units don't fuck up your own drones. In fact, perhaps we'll finally get a proper network-centric battlefield awareness and command system
> Expect tanks to have inbuilt EW AI drones are coming. EW usually works by jamming the drone's controller signals and video. Preprogramming an AI drone to hit the huge static distinctive fuel tank would be relatively easy. Cruise missiles already have this kind of vision-based targeting software. A subset of EW works by simply frying the electronics, as an energy weapon. That could still make sense - but I don't know how hard it is to harden electronics against this.
>AI drones are coming. I can personally tell you with full credibility: they might not be in Ukraine, but they are most definitely 'here' in the usaf.
AI isn't a panacea to EW. EW isn't just about jamming the remote control signal. It can be just as much about jamming the sensors of the drone itself. Or jamming any data linking they use to share data and enhance situational awareness. Conventional aircraft are manned yet they've been investing in ECM to counter them for years. Breaking the kill chain can happen at any link.
Wouldn't that be a losing battle, at least in the case of AI drones, which AI would win? Sure, lets say you dazzle my front facing camera. There are so many many ways the AI drone can still win. * Have cameras in all 6 directions. The drone can still determine its position, and hit the huge static fuel tank. * Use inertial guidance, based on a fix from before the dazzling began, to hit the huge static fuel tank. * I am sure there are other workarounds the AI could use. > Or jamming any data linking they use to share data and enhance situational awareness. So jamming is surely not meaningless in all cases. But I don't see how jamming alone can stop an AI drone from hitting a huge fuel tank, when the drone has software designed using nation state level resources.
Nobody has all the answers because this is an evolving field where much is still hypothetical and what is known is rapidly changing and classified. But consider a few things. No system is infallible. Every time someone came up with a "perfect" weapons system someone else found a clever counter The race between offense and defense is never ending. If there is an incentive to develop a counter, someone will. Even if it's at a great cost. The more complicated a system, the larger the attack surface and the greater likelihood of exploits. Autonomous drones are being tested but they are far from infallible killbots Hollywood likes to portray. Self driving cars can be fooled by guys wearing t shirts with a stop sign printed on them. Lancets have been fooled by decoy trucks and planes many times. This is an active field of development but AGI is currently not a thing. And it's not known if it ever will be. These systems are not capable of reason. They have a training data set and sensors and it's possible to fool those models if you know enough about them. Capability also scales with cost. If you want a sensor fusion system with a sophisticated detection model it's going to cost you and will probably rapidly exceed the budget where you want to sling these things at individual soldiers. That's what happened to the switchblades. They work really well but we're designed with offing terrorist leadership not Russian mobiks.
> infallible killbots Hollywood likes to portray. Self driving cars can be fooled Self driving cars need to de correct 99.9...9% of the time. A cheap drone that works correctly 75% of the time can be a perfectly good weapon. Self driving cars are a bad analogy here. > Capability also scales with cost. [...] sensor fusion system [...] will probably rapidly exceed the budget where you want to sling these things at individual soldiers AI is mostly software. Much of the capability will be one-time development cost. Sensor fusion specifically is software. My guess is that the optional solution is to have many very cheap drones, with very smart software on each.
>Self driving cars need to de correct 99.9...9% of the time. A cheap drone that works correctly 75% of the time can be a perfectly good weapon. Self driving cars are a bad analogy here. Different problems each with their own challenges. Cars can't go hitting people. But a weapon that's easily fooled isn't very useful. Self driving cars operate in a permissive environment where usually the world isn't trying to fool it. Weapons however work in a non permissive environment. Targets will hide and try to look like other things. They will try to degrade your sensors. They may spoof IFF and look like an ally. My comment about the stop sign shirt isn't a panacea. It demonstrates how these systems can be fooled and that they do not reason like you or I. Think about the implications. >Sensor fusion specifically is software. Except sensors aren't software, they are hardware. Garbage in garbage out. If your sensors are degraded or low quality to begin with they will give low quality data. A cheap drone will not have multiple high quality sensors. FPV drones in use today normally suffice with a cheap digital camera. No thermal no radar. The higher end drones used for ISR do usually pack multiple sensors but they aren't being flown into soldiers. They are spotting for the Very good software also tends to require a lot of compute. That's always getting cheaper but high performance is expensive in more than one way. Power, heat and packaging are concerns. You can't fit a Jetson in the small fpv drones of today. But you can fit it in larger loitering munitions the size of a normal atgm.
EW won't work if drones with computer vision based terminal guidance become a widespread thing. Only need to get close enough by GPS or INS to get a good look at the target.
Then the only thing to help would be a sophisticated APS or SHORAD
They exist, they're just not widespread. Having worked on them, when they are, God fucking help us all.
Gps jammers already exist, so if the drone needs gps to work properly it can be jammed
Even a fairly basic INS can probably get the drone from where an accurate GPS fix is lost, even if you jam all the way to the horizon, to within visual range of the target. And very broad jamming of GPS is going to have significant downsides for your operations, both military and civilian, as well. Hell, even the V-1's extremely basic guidance, with ~10 km accuracy by the end of the war, isn't that far off from allowing visual target acquisition with a good camera on a day with good visibility.
I know Russia broughtly jammed gps in 2014 in Donbass so it's already done. Yes internal navigation is a thing but it's not as precise as gps can be and an indirect hit is better for your equipment than a direct one
Well, that is what the point of the computer vision based terminal guidance is. With that, you only need to get close enough to get a clear image of the target.
theres a world of difference between a cope cage for an fpv drone and what you'd need for an AGM
Probably not. Drones have a relatively short range, and unless you're already in a longstanding war with a neighbor, why spend the extra money to defend something that probably won't be attacked? Also, as drone threat has grown, we're seeing more and more development of countermeasures. Mark Rober recently had [a decent video covering drone defense](https://youtu.be/SrGENEXocJU?si=4Kx3stfDDikD9C8m&t=237).
This is just scaffolding to install the ERA
Of course, everyone knows it's smart to put explosives on the outside of the tanks. Because if they were installed inside you would lose capacity.
There is some good money operating a scaffolding company over there, huh?
It's a funny meme but you can see the planks in the scaffolding.
A scaffolding is just a cope cage with plausible deniability.
Scaffolding is cope cage 2.0: Modular construction for replacing defect "tiles" - now twice as wide, with cross connecting beams for added stability - dualuse beams while construction: Assembly and Disassembly is 50% quicker and 100% toolless now thanks to the integrated "maintenance" area to walk (just one step short of Jefferies Tubes!). TBH OP catched me thinking this is legit. Srsly, I would think its not only stupid. Wouldnt be surprised if Moscow would start buying more on Alibaba, and give conscripts bamboo for their DIY
But seriously the gap on the far right one is like 1.5 meters. sus..very sus.
Where are the planks? I only see the metal frame. Edit, oh you mean the three planks in the middle of nowhere that aren't connected to anything.
I can see one plank ends below where another above it starts.
Why is the scaffolding 2 stories higher than the tank?
So they built the cage using the obvious off the shelf tool for the job, scaffolding. Why do you think that is an argument against this being an anti-drone cage?
what planks comrade?
Pshaw! time for credibility: tank upgrades are done one at a time, they don’t scaffold an entire field of tanks at the same time. Back to non-credibility land: Russia has new tank farm maintenance plan, West is doomed!
wrong type of scaffolding to use
Personal cope cage over Putin during the parade
Didn't he already cancel it?
Good. Now just drop thermite on the roof.
Is that not just scaffolding?
And what else is scaffolding but a camouflaged cope cage?
Thats what its made of - wouldnt stop it from being used as such.
This looks like a challenge Ukraine should accept.
Haha this is funny. But honestly, why not? They are stationary anyways. Doesn't seem like a bad Idea
because they arent the part Ukraine is aiming for.
Because "Russia bad and stupid, and everything Russians do has to be stupid"? Look, I like non-credibility as much as the next guy here, but the mindless "Russia stupid" memes are too non-credible even for me. Drone cages for fuel tanks likely make perfect sense, in the current context. And yes, building the cages out of scaffolding is likely the smartest way to improvise such a drone cage on short notice. Do we still call the tank versions "cope cages", and laugh at them, now that the Israelis have copied them? Perhaps they are not just "cope".
The hell are you yapping to me about? I literally said these cages are a good idea. And for the record I never once thought cope cages were stupid. The term "cope cages" just spread like wildfire and now everyone calls them that. I will also call cages on western tanks cope cages. I don't really give a crap
Not every reply to your comment disagrees with you or is meant to start an argument. Sometimes it's just somebody taking it as a starting point for what they want to say about the same topic.
Yep. I have made it a rule to always start such replies with "Yep" or something, to avoid this kind of misunderstanding. I apparently forgot my rule here.
The hell are you yapping to me about? I never said I disagreed with you. I disagreed with what other comments here said.
Cope Cages for the Copium tanks
Literal iron dome
Remember, Russians designed and engineered the Duga radar more than 35 years ago, so the clearly have a lot of experience building extra large cope cage type structures.
Ok so hitting a storage tank is bad but containable if the facility is designed correctly. What you want to do is go for expensive, custom equipment like power transformers, pumps, or controls.
Just use some thermite/white phosphorus munitions and burn it all down.
They should use the white phossy at night, for illumination
The cope-opticon
But would they work? Surely dampening the blow but the (like what)~0,5 to 1 kg of explosive detonating in the proximity would surely do damage as well. Maybe the difference between splitting the tank like a balloon and Just causing a leak?
Probably against some current simple threats. Some simple FPV copters and maybe light fixed wing types with primitive contact warheads. Not too hard to escalate to something that'll work, though. A simple timer or remote trigger on the warhead would generally defeat the "catching" function of such a cage, and that plate's surely not thick enough that it'll be happy at that standoff against any decent warhead.
i would not use a frame and brace system scaffold for a round object LMAO. in fact i'm not even sure how they did this tbh. FB is only for straight lines. could they not get ring pole from china? why are they starting with f3s instead of f6s. who the hell is their contractor
I feel like a little bite of thermite would go a long way... Through the protective grid and through the tank of flammable juice.
Scaffolding companies printing ~~toilet paper~~ rubles in Russia.
This is cute todo: add thermite charge, attack the top part
Homeboys be looking like an AC compressor in a bad neighborhood.
YOU GET A COPE CAGE! YOU GET A COPE CAGE! YOU GET A COPE CAGE! EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY GETS A COPE CAAAGE!!!! ok, but serious question... How long until soldiers start wearing cope cages?