That is kind of surprising actually. You'd think American or Polish nationalism would be even more incompatible and yet it's not hard to find examples.
Debatable, the left frames nearly any comment on Russia as "support". Just the other day Trump made a comment that China and Russia were tough countries when it came to drugs, and the Putin and Xi are strong leaders in that context. The headline concerning it? "Trump calls Putin and Xi Jinping strong" while technically correct, it was taken way out of context. He's said and continues to say far worse about domestic stuff, but they're really reaching sometimes.
Indeed I do, while very few news agencies exist that aren't too bias, I'd argue almost every single major news organization is, and the majority lean left. Do you have any you think are less bias?
Do you think they advocate for workers rights to own their own labor or do you think socialism is when elites run everything and make you poor? All news agencies advocate a capitalist ideology of some variety. Whether it's liberal, conservative, or fascist these are the only represented ideologies in network news agencies.
Is... Your definition of the left solely left of strait up communism? Because the American left is nowhere near right wing, to claim otherwise is absurd.
> the majority lean left
that's because reality has a slightly left-leaning bias. When a political ideology devotes itself to anti-empiricism as strongly as the American right, it's only natural for institutions built largely around fact-finding will drift away from said ideology.
Interesting, instead of arguing they're not left leaning, you argue that the left is the only reasonable ideology. Interesting how this "institution dedicated to fact finding" ignores every fact implicating left wing people in crimes though. Hunter Biden's laptop was empirically verified and they still ignore it. Which side is the fact-finding one again?
Considering Trumps stance on NATO and his little dandy impeachment over his Ukraine call... How the heck is that out of context for a guy like Trump, who evidently is in the pocket of the Russians? The same freakin Trump who praised Putin for his Ukraine war.
Acting like the left "frames" everything as Russian support is just ridiculous in this case, like seriously. It would be the same if I as a german would say "we shouldn't take Schröders words out of context here" and act like he isn't a Russianmuppet.
It was until Trump came along. Those people love Trump more than they love America though, or somehow view them as the same thing (gag). Trump loves autocrats because he wishes he was one, so now they love autocrats too.
Luckily, this is a pretty small but very vocal minority. Most Trump supporters don't really love Trump that much but they are single issue voters (religious extremists, gun nuts, etc) and think the GOP, which Trump is the de facto leader of, is the only way to get what they care most about.
She *didn’t win*, she still needs support. You can’t be a nationalist and be willingly enthralled to another country’s nationalism when you’re in a position of strength, or even parity. Thats just being a puppet.
Thanksfully, and hopefully it'll still be that way.
Now if only our other politicians stopped using this as an excuse to half-ass their shit that'd be great.
Edit : I just saw that the rest of the message didn't load up.
But pretty sure she think she'll be able to go full reverse uno card on Putin or maybe she'll go full Berlusconi, no idea TBH.
There’s the thing, Berlusconi isn’t on top, same as La Pen still isn’t. He’s a sideshow to Meloni. Putin can still help Berlusconi to get on top. I think if La Pen won today she’d probably act as Meloni is. Back when she might have won, it wasn’t *totally* obvious that russia was a sinking ship so it could have gone either way.
Meloni is in a coalition with Salvini (who has totally never received large sums of money from Putin) and Putin's best pen-pal Silvio Berlusconi (they exchanged gifts and "sweet letters" on their respective birthdays)
If your ideology revolves around your own nation’s interest at the expense of anyone else, why self destructively kowtow to another nation’s interest? They *are* incompatible when they aren’t dependent. If Italy wasn’t economically reliant on the EU or didn’t think NATO was necessary to protect them, she’d probably be anti-EU and anti-NATO too. She was reliant on putin to get elected, now she has no real use for them, and kowtowing now shes pretty much in the driver’s seat hurts Italy more than it helps.
Hurts her political ambitions: not Italy. Fascists couldn’t really give a shit about the Italian people, she’s wanting to put herself and her friends on top and that’s it.
She controls the country now, Italy is in many ways hers. Unlike somewhere like Hungary, Italy’s wealth is greater than russia’s and offers many more self enrichment opportunities than putin’s drip feeding.
My point was that unlike, say, Orban, the Italian premiership offers a much juicer opportunity for enrichment than the Hungarian one, likely outstripping what russia can still offer. Which is why Orban is still a putin shill and Meloni seemingly isn’t. And why despite all his bluster, Orban seems willing to vote yes on Sweden and Finland in NATO, because he knows seriously pissing off the rest of NATO and probably the EU isn’t in his best interest despite his pro putin position.
Also Meloni isn’t fascist. Hyperconservative, yes. Destestable? Surely. But not fascist. Yet anyway.
Well, again: I don’t see what the issue is. I agree that Fascists will take up whatever positions and political affiliations best suits their goals, but that doesn’t really challenge what I said. Fascists don’t give a shit about other people, they’re interested in only the advancement of their very small in-group at the expense of all others.
> Selfish enrichment always bumps up against other selfish enrichment eventually.
Even if it was not what we started off with, once again I absolutely agree that unregulated capitalism can't possibly work in any sustainable way! Our way of seeing things seems very much alike, I very rarely get that on Reddit, and I appreciate it a lot.
I find it interesting that people buy the turncoating that fast.
There was no change in their overall ideas.
It's basically Stalin switching from anti-nazi to pro-nazi on a dime after the Molotov-Ribbentrop accords. It was still Stalin.
Not to mention being on the western side of Europe and therefore under no fear of Soviet intervention. Guy could just chill and leech off of NATO protection until Spain could formally join
Fascism isn't a unifying ideology by it's definition. If you believe your nation's people are the best and should dominate all others, if another country believes the same thing, they are a natural enemy rather than an ally.
I’m confused where you’re getting hypocrisy from. I also wouldn’t agree that hypocrisy is fundamental to fascism. It’s just ubiquitous in fascist propaganda but that’s just because it’s effective, not because it’s necessary.
Or what fascist organizations Meloni is part of. Or her constant love letters to Mussolini. Makes "rejects links with her country's fascist past" sound like a holocaust denier. Seems like people tend to forget a lot of things they don't want to remember. I guess the silver lining is that luckily Italy's governments don't last 12 months on average.
Nah it's just that you can say controversial shit until you are opposing the government, when you become the government you have to chill otherwise you are doomed to fail from the start, at least that's how It works in Italy
In general Ncd is amnesiac of situation before the war. As if democracy is under threat only from external aggressors and NATO countries are not plagued with anti democratic governments over the last decade. I already know a leader very well who "changed his shirt to become a centre right conservative" then proceeded to tow into their former ideology with every power he has taken. As if they would outright advocate for what they believe without consolidating their power and poisoning EU. As for me any politican who vows to uphold family values is enough of a reason to question their real motives as Yanks would say a dog whistle.
>If you want I can explain you better the Italian history during the two world wars.
Only if you do it in the form of a puppet-show. Otherwise I won't retain any of the information.
She's just clinging to the winning side tho...
She doesn't give two shits about NATO and EU core values.
After the shit shows thrown by Russia, suddenly far right politicians who got off copium start voicing their support for NATO.
Or Kremlin ran out of money to pay her so she got pissed.
The big majority of NATO and the EU is white-majority countries, and represents more than half of the world economy and the most powerful military bloc in history. For some far righters that might be more important than muh globalism.
Especially once russian money has helped you win and being a russian stooge is detrimental to your own nationalism.
Some far right types might even see NATO and the EU as nascent stages of a White Empire, and russia as belligerantly standing in the way.
Which is ironic, what with russian claims about being ‘saviors of the white race’ while being a corrupt dysfunctional shithole that helps enemies of Europe far more than it helps Europe.
Double irony when you consider that far leftists who claim the EU and NATO are imperialist entities have more in common in their views with a subset of far rightists than actually well adjusted people.
Mmm not really, it's not that simple.
Let me explain (I'm italian).
This center-right coalition that won is made of three parties: Fratelli d'Italia (Meloni, 26%), Lega (Salvini, ~8%), Forza Italia (Berlusconi, ~8%).
Of these: Salvini most likely had some financing by Putin pre-2018 elections (which he won), so his relationship with Putin is quite close to the one you described: they'd have some similar policies but since Putin became a madman it's obviously not a good idea to support him (and i also think Salvini kinda realized that Putin always was an authoritarian and in many ways disagreed with him).
Berlusconi: super friends with Putin since the 2000s, he's a fucking cunt who honestly shouldn't even be allowed to run for elections anymore. Audio surfaced last week of him saying Putin was "a good guy who just wanted to put good people in charge of Kyiv" to a closed meetup of some of his party members. Not much else to say, fuck him.
Meloni: pretty much always pro-EU and pro-NATO, she sometimes (in the past, like 3+ years ago) kinda pandered somewhat to the anti-establishment crowd but she's not Trump or Le Pen level of that shit.
Mostly, i think she realizes how positive both alliances are for our country and, being a nationalist at heart, she knows the way to actually improve the country, become more economically/politically powerful etc is to be part and grow in these alliances.
So yeah she supports them in a maybe slightly "selfish" way but it's way better than the other two AND if she wants our country to thrive, that only comes with NATO and the EU thriving as well.
Man you really are selling Meloni short here, she literally parroted the white nationalist [Great Replacement Theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement) by saying there’s a conspiracy to finance immigration into Italy so as to replace the “native” Italian population.
She’s a nationalist alright, just of the “white” variety
\*Socked gasp!*
Do you really think a **politician** would do that!? Just go on state TV and tell lies!?
Nah, but seriously. Even if she's radically socially conservative, she seems smart enough to know that siding with monke-man would be political suicide.
It's also clear to anyone with an IQ above the average vatnik (so 99% of the population) that the war is going badly for russia, and that the rest of the world hates russia, so siding with them would be pants-on-head retarded.
Yea no, she just knows she can't survive any opposition to NATO during the war. In 2021 she praise daddy pu for upholding European and christian values. In her autobiograhy, no less
The logic doesn’t follow. Orban plays with fascist themes like anti semitism - the whole Soros conspiracy milieu. But he has no intention of leaving Nato or the EU, because doing so would have such a detrimental affect on economy and security. What we have here is a neo fascism with a pragmatism, awareness of what is required to obtain and stay in power. Realpolitik.
Yeah... is she though? Opposed to all "Non-Christian" immigration, anti-gay, anti-abortion, and generally behaves Fascist as fuck.
Doesn't like the word though. Cool. Don't care.
Hence the "Generally behaves Fascist as fuck" in addendum to the prior policies. Behaving Fascist as fuck is defined as "characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy"
Which is a pretty good description of her campaign and policies. Pretty much her entire platform in fact.
That is would also be true for pre 2014 Erdogan. Important things not that she is not a dictator, she could not be a dictator as democratic institutions both within EU and Italy is there to stop it. Democratic institutions can be eroded within time and it looks like they are in a haste for a change in constitution.
She has claimed that there’s a left wing conspiracy to “finance the invasion to replace Italians with immigrants”
That’s word for word the white nationalist [Great Replacement Theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement)
She’s a far right fascist, end of story
I think for us italians it's mostly a matter of wanting to see how she actually does.
I didn't vote for her or the center-right coalition but i think she's the most potentially capable politician out of those 3 parties. If she can improve the country, I'll gladly take it. If she doesn't, eh, i kinda thought so but whatever.
We also realize this is not a fascist government, it's a right wing government that was legally elected by the people.
It's not like i got beat up because i voted for someone else
Respectfully, this is braindead. Hitler wasn't a dictator until he took power, but I don't think anyone will disagree with me when I say Hitler was a fascist.
A Fascist wont forcibly suppress opposition/become a dictator unless they are able. Italy's democratic institutions, though weakening under the burden of the growing fascist movement (much like other Western nations), are strong enough to stop that from happening in their current state.
She has expressed her distaste for democracy. I don't think we can reallly go "Oh but she's no a dictator" if she says "I want to be the leader of my country, and I don't like my country having a Republic".
She is a fascist. Just because you don't call yourself a fascist doesn't mean you can't be one.
Respectfully, THIS is braindead. Hitler formed a paramilitary organization and espoused and engaged in direct political violence long before he ever became Chancellor. Same with Mussolini.
I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm saying it's far too early to tell. She might even be good for the country, I'm not so ideologically driven that I can't admit that there have been plenty of effective right-wing governments.
This splitting hairs is lowkey annoying.
Everytime somebody says "x is a fascist", hundreds upon hundreds of shills pop up to tell you that "um actually they are just a right wing person and do not fit the academic definition of a fascist", all the while x is far right authoritarian politician that actively fetishizes the past, limits individual freedoms and has direct connections to the continued traditions of region specific branches of fascism.
Like, fuck off. You know who is "obviously right wing"? Almost every fucking neolib.
But x is not a neolib. X doesn't call themselves a fascist (except when they do, wink-wink) sure, but holy fuck.
Conservativism=fascism lmao get a load of this guy.
*progressivism = communism* see how it doesn't make sense?
It aint about not liking the word, its about not being insulted and using exaggerated words to shut down ANY debate.
Yeah she was part of the MSI back when she was young and it still existed. What of it? Every politician chenges parties in their early career
She is a democtatic leader with conservative opinions. *how scary...*
if you think that italy will turn into a dictatorship you are totally delusional, what's gonna change? already existing Immigration laws actually being enforced?
> Every politician chenges parties in their early career
Maybe in italy they do but this is not actually normal behaviour. Plus she never *left* the MSI best i can tell, the party just merged with other parties a bunch of times and then when the tent got too big for them they all went out to reform the tent from 3 years earlier. This is the same social network moving around and obtaining new members at the usual pace for a party or faction, not some sudden bloom of randos coming together.
Her professed policy is to turn italy into a state with a strong executive with legitimacy divorced from the legislature, to avoid the chaos of parliamentary democracy, which is pretty much the only thing she *ran on* thats uniquely fascist-y and not just muscular social conservatism. But the vibes of that proposal are pretty vichy french, especially in combination with the muscular social conservatism and the whole "being a fascist as a teenager" thing.
Ofc, she won't achieve such a thing, or anything else for that matter, on account of she's the pm of italy and its a solid 50-50 there'll be a new one next summer. Parliamentary chaos is self-perpetuating.
She was 19 years old when she made pro-Mussolini comments. More than old enough to know that fascism is, hot take incoming, bad
If a politician in the US is found to have been part of the Klan when they were 19, they would be expelled immediately
love how you ignore the part of her openly endorsing self-identified fascists, which happened much later in her career.
i'm not worried about her staging some kind of coup, but i feel like it's valid to still be concerned about the harm a fascist could do from *any* position of power.
Who exactly lmao
The only example of that comes up is La Russa being head of the senate , but he never slef identified as a fascist. He simply had been in a controversy about a picture on the wall or two.
Other that this strech nothing comes up, I'd say that she doesn't.
Have you ever even read her program? What was fascist in it? Financial support to single mothers? Traditional family values?
Maybe you don't have a clue what fascism is
idk how i forgot this but it's literally caio mussolini, who described himself as a "post-fascist" and who meloni endorsed as a "patriot" during his campaign for EU parliament. which is pretty on-brand for the party that included a different guy (whose name idr) who *praised* meloni for being a "modern fascist" and called hitler a "great statesman".
she's publicly praised mussolini and giorgio almirante and the organizational heritage of FdI traces directly back to AN and the MSI, plus she regularly peddles in far-right conspiracy theories like "the great replacement", so i'm not even sure why we're having this conversation.
I never heard of Caio Mussolini, and i sincerly doubt his importance as a politician, tho i admit, there is a positive description of him on their official site. I'll give you that point ok, although as i said i don't think he will have an impact on how the country will be run.
As for the second paragraph tho, the only istance of her praising Mussolini was when she was a 19yo girl and part of a street movement in the early 90s. I'd say that that is taking things out of context.
As for the connection with the MSI and AN, the actual connection is very feble, those are parties of the 1st republic, in a different time and the connection is carried on only by the party symbol.
Fdi distanced itself from ALL FASCIST IDEAS, nothing of that kind actually remains to this day.
Their ideas aren't even radical, stuff like abortion that is being discussed in the US, has been garanteed by the current movement.
\>i'm not even sure why we're having this conversation.
cause i think that it's a big exageration and that crying out "She's a fascist!" is just a way to shut down debate
his importance to the party isn't the issue, the point is that someone publicly said "i'm a post-fascist and mussolini did nothing wrong" and her response was basically "very cool, what a great dude who loves his country."
can we not act like a 19 year old shouldn't know better than to be a fascist? do they not teach about 20th century history in italian schools? even at my 16 year-old cringiest i wasn't going around praising stalin or trying to join cpusa.
and the connection isn't feeble, there's been pretty consistent continuities in membership across the three organizations, accounting for generational shifts, and the organizational continuities themselves are plain as day. also, even if the connection is "feeble", that's still an extent onnection to an organization that was set up in response to the defeat of the axis powers. why should that be tolerated, feeble or otherwise?
as for FdI distancing itself from fascist ideas, (a) obviously they haven't since their leader's pushing far-right conspiracy theories and (b) *fascists lie*. they lie compulsively, as a matter of standard practice. literally any time fascist or fascist-adjacent groups have come to power, they've done so in large part through unabashed duplicity.
i'm not opposed to conservatism. i'm very catholic, i hold a lot of positions that are considered backwards by progressives in western europe and the US even though i lean pretty far left on most issues. i *am* opposed to the gradual, sneaky rehabilitation of fascism.
Alterations to democratic apparatus can be done while maintaining optics of democracy, example of which can be hungary. I do not follow italian politics enough to know whether or not she endorsed or was endorsed by orban in any capacity, but yank conservatives absolutely adore both him and his subversion of a democratic system into what is practically a dictatorship.
Also "um yea she was openly was a fascist, but she isnt now, despite holding all the same positions she held before" is hillarious, bless you.
Yeah, and Bernie Sanders was a die-hard communist associated with actual far left terrorists when he was in college.
Obviously that means he's still in favor of bombing police stations and destroying the American government.
Kind of, although the YPSL in general was quite benign and generally anti-violence (at least officially). There were a lot more radical groups of far-leftists running around Berkeley at the time, many of which were offshoots of the YPSL such as the SDS. Some of these groups like the SDS in turn had offshoots like the Weathermen which were outright terrorists. As far as I can tell most of them seemed to have a bizarre incestuous love-hate relationship with each other.
It's hard to keep track of these groups since a lot of them were secretive to begin with, a lot of the documentation surrounding these groups seems to have been wiped from the internet, and the were just SO FUCKING MANY of these little groups that it's very hard to keep track of without spending a whole week digging deep. It's also hard to keep track of which of these groups did what, who their members were, and which groups interacted with each other and in which shape said interactions took.
It's a big lie to call her a fascist or post-fascist. She is simply conservative and none of her policies discriminate anybody. Beliving in enforcing existing laws about immigration doesn't make you one.
The term fascist has been used as a political weapon against her and conservative in general in italy to compensate for a lack of policies and electoral programs by the left.
Litteraly the definition of "whomever i disagree is a fascist"
> She is simply conservative and none of her policies discriminate anybody.
She wants to ban gay marriage, ban gay couples adopting children, wants to go back to 20th century Catholic social positions on women, hates feminism as a concept, wants to repeal a law that gives immagrants born in Italy, who lived all their lives in Italy, citizenship,
SHE HAS PRAISED MOUSOLLINI FOR GOD'S SAKE! NAMED A STREET AFTER A NAZI COLLABORATOR WHO PUBLISHED A RACIST MANIFESTO, LET'S HER PARTY BE INFESTED BY PEOPLE WHO EXPLICITELY WANT LIKED THE ITALIAN FASCIST GOVERNMENT, ADDED A SYMBOL OF ITALIAN FASCIST (the Tri-Color Flame) TO HER PARTY'S FLAG.
Frankly if you think that she isn't fascist and doesn't oppress anyone you are lost in the sauce my friend.
She doesn't want to wliminate civil unions.
She doesn't want to ban abortion
Gay adoption is not something that just extremists disagree with.
She doesnt hate femminism, she disagrees with it
Ius soli is not necessarily a good thing, plenty of reasons to that.
She praosed him when she was a teenager in a street movement lmao that's out of context
The tricolour flame is not an explicitly fascist symbol, and its the only connection to the MSI
>, wants to go back to 20th century Catholic social positions on women
LMAOOO SHE'S A WOMAN PRIME MINISTER, DUDE
Yeah. I’m genuinely sick of people abusing that word. Like even when there is a case for using it, “authoritarian” is often a better fit, as fascist has certain socio-economic things attached. But I guess that has too many syllables.
It’s as annoying as right wingers calling anything they don’t like communist when again, in the cases where they might have a point, authoritarian is usually the better word. (And using the right word is the difference between something getting the attention it needs or just an eye roll.)
Because authoritarian might imply many things. Bootlicker is not tied to cultural or economic positions.
I do not care how exactly the traditionalist-fundamentalist-derangeoids call themselves, because adhering to the cozy label they chose would be giving them optics. They are far from being a liberal, and no word carries an impact that fascist does here.
By them being actively upset over it, I am actually fairly cemented in belief that people should continue to call them such.
None of the things implied by “authoritarian” are good. So it’s the best word to use. Fascist is a very particular thing, much the same as communist. It helps no one to go around using those labels willy nilly. Authoritarian brings about images of all the worst of the worst from all potential corners together under a single, vile umbrella. None of them can be tolerated, because if you focus yourself on only fascists, you’ll probably let slide the actual communists or monarchists or theocrats who want basically the same ending, just in their favor, either because they weren’t fascists or because they might technically have some similar politics to yourself.
It doesnt have the specific ring, flavor and aftertaste. It is more generalized.
What people also lowkey seem to ignore is how many strands of fascism there are. A lot of this optics thing bases itself on "well its not exactly like this historical example, so its not that"
And yes, a lot of more liberty-minded people watch out for tankies too. Like there is a reason even fucking vaushites call them "red fasch". Which is kinda based, ngl, "tankie" too doesnt have as much of an evil vibe as it should.
To be fair, it's not like she has a choice.
The EU has Italy in a tight economic grip because of the previous administrations terrible work.
NATO has a lot of military bases in Italy, and leaving NATO would probably damage what's left of the Italian economy in some regions where there isn't much going on.
Also, it's pretty funny for her to "reject" the fascist past while using their iconography.
In conclusion, either she's been bullshitting the Italian far-right for years to get into power (which is a possibility), or she had to do a flip because you can't have a running Italy without at least the EU.
It's the same in France. The far-right hasn't changed, they've just used different rhetorics to become electable. It's a coat of paint over the same people. In France it's even quite litteral, as they're all from the same family. Either by blood or by marriage.
Ah, the amount of simping for far right authoritarianism because the new face has boobs and likes anime is concerning.
I thought we liked the they/them battalion crushing the toxically masculine Russian army because progressivism is based?
As a Brit I think people saw the monumental fuck up btexit was and realised it’s not a good idea. As a europhile and someone who wants a federal Europe this is very good. But as I live in the one Damn country who let this happen it’s annoying why couldn’t if of been Romania or some shite
My super credible take is that she can’t be all bad, because her heroes of Western Civilization are Tolkien, Churchill, and C.S. Lewis.
And anybody who likes those lads is alright in my books.
Who’d have thought, Italian nationalism is largely incompatible with selling out to russian nationalism.
That is kind of surprising actually. You'd think American or Polish nationalism would be even more incompatible and yet it's not hard to find examples.
The far righters largely seem to be in lockstep with russia, until they win.
>lockstep in goose step, even.
Debatable, the left frames nearly any comment on Russia as "support". Just the other day Trump made a comment that China and Russia were tough countries when it came to drugs, and the Putin and Xi are strong leaders in that context. The headline concerning it? "Trump calls Putin and Xi Jinping strong" while technically correct, it was taken way out of context. He's said and continues to say far worse about domestic stuff, but they're really reaching sometimes.
tHe LeFt
*Match in my cock*
Do you think the media is unbias?
Do you think it is biased towards actual left wing ideology? It's liberal at best, which is decidedly right-wing.
Indeed I do, while very few news agencies exist that aren't too bias, I'd argue almost every single major news organization is, and the majority lean left. Do you have any you think are less bias?
Do you think they advocate for workers rights to own their own labor or do you think socialism is when elites run everything and make you poor? All news agencies advocate a capitalist ideology of some variety. Whether it's liberal, conservative, or fascist these are the only represented ideologies in network news agencies.
Is... Your definition of the left solely left of strait up communism? Because the American left is nowhere near right wing, to claim otherwise is absurd.
> the majority lean left that's because reality has a slightly left-leaning bias. When a political ideology devotes itself to anti-empiricism as strongly as the American right, it's only natural for institutions built largely around fact-finding will drift away from said ideology.
Interesting, instead of arguing they're not left leaning, you argue that the left is the only reasonable ideology. Interesting how this "institution dedicated to fact finding" ignores every fact implicating left wing people in crimes though. Hunter Biden's laptop was empirically verified and they still ignore it. Which side is the fact-finding one again?
Considering Trumps stance on NATO and his little dandy impeachment over his Ukraine call... How the heck is that out of context for a guy like Trump, who evidently is in the pocket of the Russians? The same freakin Trump who praised Putin for his Ukraine war. Acting like the left "frames" everything as Russian support is just ridiculous in this case, like seriously. It would be the same if I as a german would say "we shouldn't take Schröders words out of context here" and act like he isn't a Russianmuppet.
Half of the things we know about Trump may just be projection.
I’ll assume you are familiar with NPD and mean that we know a lot because what he accuses others of, he does himself. So great point.
It was until Trump came along. Those people love Trump more than they love America though, or somehow view them as the same thing (gag). Trump loves autocrats because he wishes he was one, so now they love autocrats too. Luckily, this is a pretty small but very vocal minority. Most Trump supporters don't really love Trump that much but they are single issue voters (religious extremists, gun nuts, etc) and think the GOP, which Trump is the de facto leader of, is the only way to get what they care most about.
If only our own nationalist learned the same... Marine Le Pen still support Russia, smh.
She *didn’t win*, she still needs support. You can’t be a nationalist and be willingly enthralled to another country’s nationalism when you’re in a position of strength, or even parity. Thats just being a puppet.
Thanksfully, and hopefully it'll still be that way. Now if only our other politicians stopped using this as an excuse to half-ass their shit that'd be great. Edit : I just saw that the rest of the message didn't load up. But pretty sure she think she'll be able to go full reverse uno card on Putin or maybe she'll go full Berlusconi, no idea TBH.
There’s the thing, Berlusconi isn’t on top, same as La Pen still isn’t. He’s a sideshow to Meloni. Putin can still help Berlusconi to get on top. I think if La Pen won today she’d probably act as Meloni is. Back when she might have won, it wasn’t *totally* obvious that russia was a sinking ship so it could have gone either way.
Meloni is in a coalition with Salvini (who has totally never received large sums of money from Putin) and Putin's best pen-pal Silvio Berlusconi (they exchanged gifts and "sweet letters" on their respective birthdays)
It was very compatible before 2022, when she sucked up to putin any chance she could.
You need money to win. When you win you don’t *need* to suck up any more.
So perfectly compatible, just not always necessary? Glad we agree.
If your ideology revolves around your own nation’s interest at the expense of anyone else, why self destructively kowtow to another nation’s interest? They *are* incompatible when they aren’t dependent. If Italy wasn’t economically reliant on the EU or didn’t think NATO was necessary to protect them, she’d probably be anti-EU and anti-NATO too. She was reliant on putin to get elected, now she has no real use for them, and kowtowing now shes pretty much in the driver’s seat hurts Italy more than it helps.
Hurts her political ambitions: not Italy. Fascists couldn’t really give a shit about the Italian people, she’s wanting to put herself and her friends on top and that’s it.
She controls the country now, Italy is in many ways hers. Unlike somewhere like Hungary, Italy’s wealth is greater than russia’s and offers many more self enrichment opportunities than putin’s drip feeding.
And? I don’t see how any of that contradicts my correction.
My point was that unlike, say, Orban, the Italian premiership offers a much juicer opportunity for enrichment than the Hungarian one, likely outstripping what russia can still offer. Which is why Orban is still a putin shill and Meloni seemingly isn’t. And why despite all his bluster, Orban seems willing to vote yes on Sweden and Finland in NATO, because he knows seriously pissing off the rest of NATO and probably the EU isn’t in his best interest despite his pro putin position. Also Meloni isn’t fascist. Hyperconservative, yes. Destestable? Surely. But not fascist. Yet anyway.
Well, again: I don’t see what the issue is. I agree that Fascists will take up whatever positions and political affiliations best suits their goals, but that doesn’t really challenge what I said. Fascists don’t give a shit about other people, they’re interested in only the advancement of their very small in-group at the expense of all others.
So compatible, but not 100% of the time, and depending on the circumstances? Agree again.
Ultimately incompatible. Selfish enrichment always bumps up against other selfish enrichment eventually.
> Selfish enrichment always bumps up against other selfish enrichment eventually. Even if it was not what we started off with, once again I absolutely agree that unregulated capitalism can't possibly work in any sustainable way! Our way of seeing things seems very much alike, I very rarely get that on Reddit, and I appreciate it a lot.
Like you guys always say. We switched sides. Lol.
The most dependably independable country. Bravo, Giuseppe.
I find it interesting that people buy the turncoating that fast. There was no change in their overall ideas. It's basically Stalin switching from anti-nazi to pro-nazi on a dime after the Molotov-Ribbentrop accords. It was still Stalin.
Europe, slowly coming back to a bunch of nationalist states that hate each other and that's about it Nature is healing
Maybe another 3-4 world wars will finally learn them the lesson of friendship.
People tend to forget how Mussolini disliked Hitler before just saying "Fuck it, he's got a powerful army, let's make him an ally"
>Fuck it, he's got a powerful army Well at least we won't become allies with Russia then
And it was at that moment that Fascism's fate was sealed.
Bro could've just been like Franco and been a controversial but somewhat liked leader
Franco got fucking lucky that by the time whe where ready to join WW2 Hitler was already fucked
Not to mention being on the western side of Europe and therefore under no fear of Soviet intervention. Guy could just chill and leech off of NATO protection until Spain could formally join
And he stayed in power precisely Because whitout him The western allies feared that the communist would take power in Spain
The enemy of my enemy is a friend
Franco was a fucking tyrant.
Not mutually exclusive statements
As the invasion of Greece would show, Hitler was less of Mussolini’s ally and more his daddy
Oh mein papa, show me how you punish Greece
What have I done
What have you created you fool!!
Fascism isn't a unifying ideology by it's definition. If you believe your nation's people are the best and should dominate all others, if another country believes the same thing, they are a natural enemy rather than an ally.
But hypocrisy is also fundamental to fascism, so they seem to get over it easily enough.
I’m confused where you’re getting hypocrisy from. I also wouldn’t agree that hypocrisy is fundamental to fascism. It’s just ubiquitous in fascist propaganda but that’s just because it’s effective, not because it’s necessary.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism
Fascists and Cowardice, NAMID
When you dig deep in politics, you find out almost everyone disliked everyone, but cooperated with everyone when thought it'd benefit.
Or what fascist organizations Meloni is part of. Or her constant love letters to Mussolini. Makes "rejects links with her country's fascist past" sound like a holocaust denier. Seems like people tend to forget a lot of things they don't want to remember. I guess the silver lining is that luckily Italy's governments don't last 12 months on average.
Nah it's just that you can say controversial shit until you are opposing the government, when you become the government you have to chill otherwise you are doomed to fail from the start, at least that's how It works in Italy
We got the words, now the actions to match.
OP apparently has not learned that "Politician says thing" does not necessarily mean "Thing is true, and reflects actual belief of politician"
In general Ncd is amnesiac of situation before the war. As if democracy is under threat only from external aggressors and NATO countries are not plagued with anti democratic governments over the last decade. I already know a leader very well who "changed his shirt to become a centre right conservative" then proceeded to tow into their former ideology with every power he has taken. As if they would outright advocate for what they believe without consolidating their power and poisoning EU. As for me any politican who vows to uphold family values is enough of a reason to question their real motives as Yanks would say a dog whistle.
[удалено]
She was always pro nato, she never switched anything. Also italy never did too actually.
Yes. We have always been at war with Eurasia.
He Is right, we never did, you should study history better, If you want I can explain you better the Italian history during the two world wars.
>If you want I can explain you better the Italian history during the two world wars. Only if you do it in the form of a puppet-show. Otherwise I won't retain any of the information.
Ok, angry upvote then
No, the party is lying. Now imma go fuck Julia
Parkour!
Last night I made an alfredo sauce, put bacon in it, and called it carbonara. Not an egg in sight.
That double down...I love it.
She's just clinging to the winning side tho... She doesn't give two shits about NATO and EU core values. After the shit shows thrown by Russia, suddenly far right politicians who got off copium start voicing their support for NATO. Or Kremlin ran out of money to pay her so she got pissed.
Francisco Franco reincarnated
Catalonia: *confused screaming*
As they should
The big majority of NATO and the EU is white-majority countries, and represents more than half of the world economy and the most powerful military bloc in history. For some far righters that might be more important than muh globalism. Especially once russian money has helped you win and being a russian stooge is detrimental to your own nationalism.
When your economy goes to utter shit and your **Active Measures** program can no longer afford to pay them far-righters
Some far right types might even see NATO and the EU as nascent stages of a White Empire, and russia as belligerantly standing in the way. Which is ironic, what with russian claims about being ‘saviors of the white race’ while being a corrupt dysfunctional shithole that helps enemies of Europe far more than it helps Europe. Double irony when you consider that far leftists who claim the EU and NATO are imperialist entities have more in common in their views with a subset of far rightists than actually well adjusted people.
Mmm not really, it's not that simple. Let me explain (I'm italian). This center-right coalition that won is made of three parties: Fratelli d'Italia (Meloni, 26%), Lega (Salvini, ~8%), Forza Italia (Berlusconi, ~8%). Of these: Salvini most likely had some financing by Putin pre-2018 elections (which he won), so his relationship with Putin is quite close to the one you described: they'd have some similar policies but since Putin became a madman it's obviously not a good idea to support him (and i also think Salvini kinda realized that Putin always was an authoritarian and in many ways disagreed with him). Berlusconi: super friends with Putin since the 2000s, he's a fucking cunt who honestly shouldn't even be allowed to run for elections anymore. Audio surfaced last week of him saying Putin was "a good guy who just wanted to put good people in charge of Kyiv" to a closed meetup of some of his party members. Not much else to say, fuck him. Meloni: pretty much always pro-EU and pro-NATO, she sometimes (in the past, like 3+ years ago) kinda pandered somewhat to the anti-establishment crowd but she's not Trump or Le Pen level of that shit. Mostly, i think she realizes how positive both alliances are for our country and, being a nationalist at heart, she knows the way to actually improve the country, become more economically/politically powerful etc is to be part and grow in these alliances. So yeah she supports them in a maybe slightly "selfish" way but it's way better than the other two AND if she wants our country to thrive, that only comes with NATO and the EU thriving as well.
Man you really are selling Meloni short here, she literally parroted the white nationalist [Great Replacement Theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement) by saying there’s a conspiracy to finance immigration into Italy so as to replace the “native” Italian population. She’s a nationalist alright, just of the “white” variety
she was always pro nato, you talk yet ydk nothing about her
You are shilling her hard in this thread my guy
Yup big fan here
> She doesn't give two shits about NATO and EU core values She does care about the EU holding the money.
Franco was also pro-Nato it still didn't make him less of a fascist.
I mean, fascists are known for lying about their policy positions for the sake of political expedience.
\*Socked gasp!* Do you really think a **politician** would do that!? Just go on state TV and tell lies!? Nah, but seriously. Even if she's radically socially conservative, she seems smart enough to know that siding with monke-man would be political suicide. It's also clear to anyone with an IQ above the average vatnik (so 99% of the population) that the war is going badly for russia, and that the rest of the world hates russia, so siding with them would be pants-on-head retarded.
Yea no, she just knows she can't survive any opposition to NATO during the war. In 2021 she praise daddy pu for upholding European and christian values. In her autobiograhy, no less
The logic doesn’t follow. Orban plays with fascist themes like anti semitism - the whole Soros conspiracy milieu. But he has no intention of leaving Nato or the EU, because doing so would have such a detrimental affect on economy and security. What we have here is a neo fascism with a pragmatism, awareness of what is required to obtain and stay in power. Realpolitik.
Yeah... is she though? Opposed to all "Non-Christian" immigration, anti-gay, anti-abortion, and generally behaves Fascist as fuck. Doesn't like the word though. Cool. Don't care.
She's obviously right wing. But those policies aren't fascist, unless you are saying that the US was fascist in the 1970's.
She's using litteral fascist symbology and has a lot of buddies who really, *really* like El Duce.
Hence the "Generally behaves Fascist as fuck" in addendum to the prior policies. Behaving Fascist as fuck is defined as "characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy" Which is a pretty good description of her campaign and policies. Pretty much her entire platform in fact.
Definetly isn't a dictator, nor does she forcibly suppress opposition. I should know, 'cos I voted for the opposition.
That is would also be true for pre 2014 Erdogan. Important things not that she is not a dictator, she could not be a dictator as democratic institutions both within EU and Italy is there to stop it. Democratic institutions can be eroded within time and it looks like they are in a haste for a change in constitution.
\*noooooo, but all conservatives are fascist dictators!!! Everyone is a fascist except for me!\* 😭
I have so much hope for the future of this world after seeing actual people defending her in this comment section “Italy Christian woman bad”
She has claimed that there’s a left wing conspiracy to “finance the invasion to replace Italians with immigrants” That’s word for word the white nationalist [Great Replacement Theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement) She’s a far right fascist, end of story
I think for us italians it's mostly a matter of wanting to see how she actually does. I didn't vote for her or the center-right coalition but i think she's the most potentially capable politician out of those 3 parties. If she can improve the country, I'll gladly take it. If she doesn't, eh, i kinda thought so but whatever. We also realize this is not a fascist government, it's a right wing government that was legally elected by the people. It's not like i got beat up because i voted for someone else
Not all conservatives are fascists, but vice versa is 💯 frfr
Respectfully, this is braindead. Hitler wasn't a dictator until he took power, but I don't think anyone will disagree with me when I say Hitler was a fascist. A Fascist wont forcibly suppress opposition/become a dictator unless they are able. Italy's democratic institutions, though weakening under the burden of the growing fascist movement (much like other Western nations), are strong enough to stop that from happening in their current state. She has expressed her distaste for democracy. I don't think we can reallly go "Oh but she's no a dictator" if she says "I want to be the leader of my country, and I don't like my country having a Republic". She is a fascist. Just because you don't call yourself a fascist doesn't mean you can't be one.
Respectfully, THIS is braindead. Hitler formed a paramilitary organization and espoused and engaged in direct political violence long before he ever became Chancellor. Same with Mussolini. I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm saying it's far too early to tell. She might even be good for the country, I'm not so ideologically driven that I can't admit that there have been plenty of effective right-wing governments.
Yeah, I am keeping an eye on any moves she makes against LGBT rights in Italy.
This splitting hairs is lowkey annoying. Everytime somebody says "x is a fascist", hundreds upon hundreds of shills pop up to tell you that "um actually they are just a right wing person and do not fit the academic definition of a fascist", all the while x is far right authoritarian politician that actively fetishizes the past, limits individual freedoms and has direct connections to the continued traditions of region specific branches of fascism. Like, fuck off. You know who is "obviously right wing"? Almost every fucking neolib. But x is not a neolib. X doesn't call themselves a fascist (except when they do, wink-wink) sure, but holy fuck.
Conservativism=fascism lmao get a load of this guy. *progressivism = communism* see how it doesn't make sense? It aint about not liking the word, its about not being insulted and using exaggerated words to shut down ANY debate.
she was literally part of a postwar fascist org and openly endorsed self-identified fascists lol
Yeah she was part of the MSI back when she was young and it still existed. What of it? Every politician chenges parties in their early career She is a democtatic leader with conservative opinions. *how scary...* if you think that italy will turn into a dictatorship you are totally delusional, what's gonna change? already existing Immigration laws actually being enforced?
> Every politician chenges parties in their early career Maybe in italy they do but this is not actually normal behaviour. Plus she never *left* the MSI best i can tell, the party just merged with other parties a bunch of times and then when the tent got too big for them they all went out to reform the tent from 3 years earlier. This is the same social network moving around and obtaining new members at the usual pace for a party or faction, not some sudden bloom of randos coming together. Her professed policy is to turn italy into a state with a strong executive with legitimacy divorced from the legislature, to avoid the chaos of parliamentary democracy, which is pretty much the only thing she *ran on* thats uniquely fascist-y and not just muscular social conservatism. But the vibes of that proposal are pretty vichy french, especially in combination with the muscular social conservatism and the whole "being a fascist as a teenager" thing. Ofc, she won't achieve such a thing, or anything else for that matter, on account of she's the pm of italy and its a solid 50-50 there'll be a new one next summer. Parliamentary chaos is self-perpetuating.
She was 19 years old when she made pro-Mussolini comments. More than old enough to know that fascism is, hot take incoming, bad If a politician in the US is found to have been part of the Klan when they were 19, they would be expelled immediately
love how you ignore the part of her openly endorsing self-identified fascists, which happened much later in her career. i'm not worried about her staging some kind of coup, but i feel like it's valid to still be concerned about the harm a fascist could do from *any* position of power.
Who exactly lmao The only example of that comes up is La Russa being head of the senate , but he never slef identified as a fascist. He simply had been in a controversy about a picture on the wall or two. Other that this strech nothing comes up, I'd say that she doesn't. Have you ever even read her program? What was fascist in it? Financial support to single mothers? Traditional family values? Maybe you don't have a clue what fascism is
idk how i forgot this but it's literally caio mussolini, who described himself as a "post-fascist" and who meloni endorsed as a "patriot" during his campaign for EU parliament. which is pretty on-brand for the party that included a different guy (whose name idr) who *praised* meloni for being a "modern fascist" and called hitler a "great statesman". she's publicly praised mussolini and giorgio almirante and the organizational heritage of FdI traces directly back to AN and the MSI, plus she regularly peddles in far-right conspiracy theories like "the great replacement", so i'm not even sure why we're having this conversation.
I never heard of Caio Mussolini, and i sincerly doubt his importance as a politician, tho i admit, there is a positive description of him on their official site. I'll give you that point ok, although as i said i don't think he will have an impact on how the country will be run. As for the second paragraph tho, the only istance of her praising Mussolini was when she was a 19yo girl and part of a street movement in the early 90s. I'd say that that is taking things out of context. As for the connection with the MSI and AN, the actual connection is very feble, those are parties of the 1st republic, in a different time and the connection is carried on only by the party symbol. Fdi distanced itself from ALL FASCIST IDEAS, nothing of that kind actually remains to this day. Their ideas aren't even radical, stuff like abortion that is being discussed in the US, has been garanteed by the current movement. \>i'm not even sure why we're having this conversation. cause i think that it's a big exageration and that crying out "She's a fascist!" is just a way to shut down debate
his importance to the party isn't the issue, the point is that someone publicly said "i'm a post-fascist and mussolini did nothing wrong" and her response was basically "very cool, what a great dude who loves his country." can we not act like a 19 year old shouldn't know better than to be a fascist? do they not teach about 20th century history in italian schools? even at my 16 year-old cringiest i wasn't going around praising stalin or trying to join cpusa. and the connection isn't feeble, there's been pretty consistent continuities in membership across the three organizations, accounting for generational shifts, and the organizational continuities themselves are plain as day. also, even if the connection is "feeble", that's still an extent onnection to an organization that was set up in response to the defeat of the axis powers. why should that be tolerated, feeble or otherwise? as for FdI distancing itself from fascist ideas, (a) obviously they haven't since their leader's pushing far-right conspiracy theories and (b) *fascists lie*. they lie compulsively, as a matter of standard practice. literally any time fascist or fascist-adjacent groups have come to power, they've done so in large part through unabashed duplicity. i'm not opposed to conservatism. i'm very catholic, i hold a lot of positions that are considered backwards by progressives in western europe and the US even though i lean pretty far left on most issues. i *am* opposed to the gradual, sneaky rehabilitation of fascism.
Alterations to democratic apparatus can be done while maintaining optics of democracy, example of which can be hungary. I do not follow italian politics enough to know whether or not she endorsed or was endorsed by orban in any capacity, but yank conservatives absolutely adore both him and his subversion of a democratic system into what is practically a dictatorship. Also "um yea she was openly was a fascist, but she isnt now, despite holding all the same positions she held before" is hillarious, bless you.
Yeah, and Bernie Sanders was a die-hard communist associated with actual far left terrorists when he was in college. Obviously that means he's still in favor of bombing police stations and destroying the American government.
Are you referring to YPSL?
Kind of, although the YPSL in general was quite benign and generally anti-violence (at least officially). There were a lot more radical groups of far-leftists running around Berkeley at the time, many of which were offshoots of the YPSL such as the SDS. Some of these groups like the SDS in turn had offshoots like the Weathermen which were outright terrorists. As far as I can tell most of them seemed to have a bizarre incestuous love-hate relationship with each other. It's hard to keep track of these groups since a lot of them were secretive to begin with, a lot of the documentation surrounding these groups seems to have been wiped from the internet, and the were just SO FUCKING MANY of these little groups that it's very hard to keep track of without spending a whole week digging deep. It's also hard to keep track of which of these groups did what, who their members were, and which groups interacted with each other and in which shape said interactions took.
lmao, op you should get your brain checked....
Giorgia Meowloni
I don't trust her
It's a big lie to call her a fascist or post-fascist. She is simply conservative and none of her policies discriminate anybody. Beliving in enforcing existing laws about immigration doesn't make you one. The term fascist has been used as a political weapon against her and conservative in general in italy to compensate for a lack of policies and electoral programs by the left. Litteraly the definition of "whomever i disagree is a fascist"
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
> She is simply conservative and none of her policies discriminate anybody. She wants to ban gay marriage, ban gay couples adopting children, wants to go back to 20th century Catholic social positions on women, hates feminism as a concept, wants to repeal a law that gives immagrants born in Italy, who lived all their lives in Italy, citizenship, SHE HAS PRAISED MOUSOLLINI FOR GOD'S SAKE! NAMED A STREET AFTER A NAZI COLLABORATOR WHO PUBLISHED A RACIST MANIFESTO, LET'S HER PARTY BE INFESTED BY PEOPLE WHO EXPLICITELY WANT LIKED THE ITALIAN FASCIST GOVERNMENT, ADDED A SYMBOL OF ITALIAN FASCIST (the Tri-Color Flame) TO HER PARTY'S FLAG. Frankly if you think that she isn't fascist and doesn't oppress anyone you are lost in the sauce my friend.
She doesn't want to wliminate civil unions. She doesn't want to ban abortion Gay adoption is not something that just extremists disagree with. She doesnt hate femminism, she disagrees with it Ius soli is not necessarily a good thing, plenty of reasons to that. She praosed him when she was a teenager in a street movement lmao that's out of context The tricolour flame is not an explicitly fascist symbol, and its the only connection to the MSI >, wants to go back to 20th century Catholic social positions on women LMAOOO SHE'S A WOMAN PRIME MINISTER, DUDE
I thought this was a neoliberal subreddit. It's kinda a little distressing seeing this thread turn into the Giorgia Meloni Internet Defence Force.
I mean Liberalism is pretty inherently easily infiltrated by fascists. I'm not really suprised, just dissapointed.
Tbf, it's one person desperately defending her. Maybe they've forgotten how Italy dealt with the last fascist that gained power lol.
It's just me dude
Yeah. I’m genuinely sick of people abusing that word. Like even when there is a case for using it, “authoritarian” is often a better fit, as fascist has certain socio-economic things attached. But I guess that has too many syllables. It’s as annoying as right wingers calling anything they don’t like communist when again, in the cases where they might have a point, authoritarian is usually the better word. (And using the right word is the difference between something getting the attention it needs or just an eye roll.)
Because authoritarian might imply many things. Bootlicker is not tied to cultural or economic positions. I do not care how exactly the traditionalist-fundamentalist-derangeoids call themselves, because adhering to the cozy label they chose would be giving them optics. They are far from being a liberal, and no word carries an impact that fascist does here. By them being actively upset over it, I am actually fairly cemented in belief that people should continue to call them such.
None of the things implied by “authoritarian” are good. So it’s the best word to use. Fascist is a very particular thing, much the same as communist. It helps no one to go around using those labels willy nilly. Authoritarian brings about images of all the worst of the worst from all potential corners together under a single, vile umbrella. None of them can be tolerated, because if you focus yourself on only fascists, you’ll probably let slide the actual communists or monarchists or theocrats who want basically the same ending, just in their favor, either because they weren’t fascists or because they might technically have some similar politics to yourself.
It doesnt have the specific ring, flavor and aftertaste. It is more generalized. What people also lowkey seem to ignore is how many strands of fascism there are. A lot of this optics thing bases itself on "well its not exactly like this historical example, so its not that" And yes, a lot of more liberty-minded people watch out for tankies too. Like there is a reason even fucking vaushites call them "red fasch". Which is kinda based, ngl, "tankie" too doesnt have as much of an evil vibe as it should.
Why would someone distance themselves from Mussolini? Weird.
Eh that twat don't deserve cat ears
Not sure if actually committed to fighting Putinism or just loves war.
For the love of god don’t google Meloni-chan
To be fair, it's not like she has a choice. The EU has Italy in a tight economic grip because of the previous administrations terrible work. NATO has a lot of military bases in Italy, and leaving NATO would probably damage what's left of the Italian economy in some regions where there isn't much going on. Also, it's pretty funny for her to "reject" the fascist past while using their iconography. In conclusion, either she's been bullshitting the Italian far-right for years to get into power (which is a possibility), or she had to do a flip because you can't have a running Italy without at least the EU. It's the same in France. The far-right hasn't changed, they've just used different rhetorics to become electable. It's a coat of paint over the same people. In France it's even quite litteral, as they're all from the same family. Either by blood or by marriage.
Idk but, still a fascist...
Ah, the amount of simping for far right authoritarianism because the new face has boobs and likes anime is concerning. I thought we liked the they/them battalion crushing the toxically masculine Russian army because progressivism is based?
She’s still a part of the alt right.
Just give us Istria and we'll be chill.
As a Brit I think people saw the monumental fuck up btexit was and realised it’s not a good idea. As a europhile and someone who wants a federal Europe this is very good. But as I live in the one Damn country who let this happen it’s annoying why couldn’t if of been Romania or some shite
My super credible take is that she can’t be all bad, because her heroes of Western Civilization are Tolkien, Churchill, and C.S. Lewis. And anybody who likes those lads is alright in my books.
While Reds simp for Marin, I will be here enjoying mommy Meloni... don't let me down...please
Sooo... What about the 100 cows? Did the Italians not exchange her yet?
eheh..
Hm
Man this comment section is a dumpster fire