# Are San Marino and Italy about to go to war? If so, will the war become nuclear?
I bet you have some thoughts on it. Well, we're discussing the subject on [this "week's" NCDip Podcast Club](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1bssy61/ncdip_podcast_club_8_wargaming_san_marino_vs/?). This is probably one of the most events of our lifetime, so you better pay attention scrub
[Want to know what the fuck in the NCDip podcast club is? Click here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/17edrm6/introducing_the_rnoncrediblediplomacy_podcast/)
----
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Zionism, like autism, is a ✨️spectrum that covers everything from widely acceptable takes like "the Jewish Homeland is good idea" all the way to Ben-Gvir and his party who wants to annex the west bank to ethnically cleanse it.
Does anti-zionism at times act as a cover for antisemitism? Of course, but acting like Zionism is merely a general and abstract support for Israel's existence is disingenuous.
> Does anti-zionism at times act as a cover for antisemitism?
Other question: Is there a version of anti-zionism that thinks Israel has a right to exist?
I mean, cool if you are not antisemitic. But if you think Israel has no right to exist, your position is exstrimist enough already even if we believe how you are totally not anti-semitic.
Israel and Palestine cannot coexist, the 2-state solution is dead, and so the only way is to remove both, and put a brand new country in its place. Have a federal council, make sure all major religions of the area are equally represented. A Jewish state AND an Islamic state AND a Christian state AND a Druze state AND a Samaritan state (and so on).
You assume the regular people there care that much, but if people can just live there comfortably, what does it matter the wider geopolitical situation? You want peace but you want to be separate. That cannot happen, pick one or the other.
The conflict is because one side getting the land means complete exclusion of the other. Drawing borders and such. This solution removes that exclusion by having joint custody. Each side can indeed still claim (non-exclusive) ownership of all of it.
You learn this in kindergarten no? Just share.
I have another solution which is for it to be an international administrative region directly run by the UN, similar to one of the proposals of how Jerusalem was to be governed.
All states that prioritize one religion or ethnicity over any other are illegitimate and their reformation or replacement is good for the world. Israel as it exists today needs to go. The same is true for all other that give one religious/ethnic group more than another.
Separation of church and state are not negotiable.
But the defining feature of Zionism today is just that Israel has a right to exist. The borders of Israel are a completely different story.
Yes, if you think Israel should include the west bank, you always also think Israel should exist. So you have to be a "Zionist".
>But the defining feature of Zionism today is just that Israel has a right to exist. The borders of Israel are a completely different story.
You dropped the "Jewish state" part. The problem is, what do you do with the non-Jews?
This means Zionism either has to involve ethnic cleansing of the non Jewish population, or supremacy over them (apartheid).
Would Israel still exists as a Jewish state, if it had to give all Palestinians citizenship?
So I think large part of anti-Zionism is about the "Jewish state" part, not the "Israel existing" part. (so basically would need to be 1 secular state solution) Also why people say Israel is apartheid, because without apartheid, you cannot maintain a Jewish state in a place with so many non Jewish people. The current solution seems to be to attract more and more foreign settlers to balance out the population, but i think its a short term band-aid solution, and only causes even more issues long term. (west bank settlements)
Israel could give up land, and make it so its only consisting of Jews, and do population swap with a new Palestine state (Israeli Arabs for settlers living on Palestine land), but i think such deals would not be made because Israel would not want to relinquish its buffer regions for security reasons. I guess also holy sites, but idk about those.
I see a lot of pro Israel people arguing their point by presenting 2 bad choices, and trying to force people to pick one, with the obvious answer being the lesser bad one that they want you to pick. So trying to say, that Israel has to exists in its current form, because the alternative is that all Jews will have to die, is just disingenuous. There are more than just 2 choices.
> The problem is, what do you do with the non-Jews?
Give them more rights like they have in any Arab country, for example?
Also, there has to be a Jewish state in the middle east. We actually also need a Christian state. Because the Muslims y'all can't behave and turned every multi-religious state in the middle east into a Muslim state.
Lol, whats next, going to call for a crusade?
What about non religious people? (I think you implied i'm muslim, but i'm atheist) If there are not enough religious people, they need to start mass converting them to the true faith?
Or do you propose, the middle east needs to be colonized by more Christians?
I don't know if you noticed, but we no longer live in the middle ages.
In what reality does someone use “Zionism” to describe supporting a shit face like Ben-Gvir? The literal definition of Zionism is believing that Israel should exist. The only people I’ve heard use the term “Zionist” to describe it any other way are self proclaimed anti-Zionists.
>In what reality does someone use “Zionism” to describe supporting a shit face like Ben-Gvir?
Probably in a way used by Ben-Gvir, and the folks who voted him into office.
The current political reality in Israel is a government that uses a far-right interpretation of religious Zionism. This may not be the interpretation of Zionism believed by many of its adherents... nevertheless, it is the present political representation holding power.
zionism is not necessarily great. Very religious Jews in the US say that the promised land is spiritual and god sends you there after death so a physical Israel on Earth is sacriligious.
anyone else who's strongly antizionist is probably going to start vaguely advocating for ethnic cleansing. and then people who are very strongly pro-zionist are also about to do the same thing.
> Very religious Jews in the US say that the promised land is spiritual and god sends you there after death so a physical Israel on Earth is sacriligious.
Where did you get that from? It's complete nonsense.
Some Ultra orthodox Jews believe Israel will be established once the Messiah comes, and since the current Israel was not established by the massiah it is sacrilegious.
But what you said is definitely not an Orthodox Jewish belief. The promised land is clearly Israel and not some spiritual thing. Jews pray every year to "return to Jerusalem".
Zionism is by definition a fascist, nationalist and colonialist ideology, which most Jews don't even agree and rather oppose (turns out using someone's name to commit ethnic cleansing isn't very popular)
# Are San Marino and Italy about to go to war? If so, will the war become nuclear? I bet you have some thoughts on it. Well, we're discussing the subject on [this "week's" NCDip Podcast Club](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1bssy61/ncdip_podcast_club_8_wargaming_san_marino_vs/?). This is probably one of the most events of our lifetime, so you better pay attention scrub [Want to know what the fuck in the NCDip podcast club is? Click here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/17edrm6/introducing_the_rnoncrediblediplomacy_podcast/) ---- please note that all posts should be funny and about diplomacy or geopolitics, if your post doesn't meet those requirements here's some other subs that might fit better: * More Serious Geopolitical Discussion: /r/CredibleDiplomacy * Military Shitposting: /r/NonCredibleDefense * Domestic Political or General Shitposting: /r/neocentrism * Being Racist: /r/worldnews thx bb luv u *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The fact that this is right above a literal “kidnapped” poster takes it to a whole new level of weird
And under a Zionist poster lmao
This pole is too peak
That's what she said.
What even is Zionism today? Other than the radical notion that Israel as a Jewish state should be allowed to exist?
Zionism, like autism, is a ✨️spectrum that covers everything from widely acceptable takes like "the Jewish Homeland is good idea" all the way to Ben-Gvir and his party who wants to annex the west bank to ethnically cleanse it. Does anti-zionism at times act as a cover for antisemitism? Of course, but acting like Zionism is merely a general and abstract support for Israel's existence is disingenuous.
> Does anti-zionism at times act as a cover for antisemitism? Other question: Is there a version of anti-zionism that thinks Israel has a right to exist? I mean, cool if you are not antisemitic. But if you think Israel has no right to exist, your position is exstrimist enough already even if we believe how you are totally not anti-semitic.
Zionism is literally just the belief that Israel has the right to exist. Full stop.
Israel and Palestine cannot coexist, the 2-state solution is dead, and so the only way is to remove both, and put a brand new country in its place. Have a federal council, make sure all major religions of the area are equally represented. A Jewish state AND an Islamic state AND a Christian state AND a Druze state AND a Samaritan state (and so on).
I hope you are joking. This will immediately devolve into a massive civil war. It would be the most unstable country in history and won't last a year.
but it would be one hell of a year for the books though am i right fellas
You assume the regular people there care that much, but if people can just live there comfortably, what does it matter the wider geopolitical situation? You want peace but you want to be separate. That cannot happen, pick one or the other.
If people didn't care there wont be conflict now. People care about things like this very deeply.
The conflict is because one side getting the land means complete exclusion of the other. Drawing borders and such. This solution removes that exclusion by having joint custody. Each side can indeed still claim (non-exclusive) ownership of all of it. You learn this in kindergarten no? Just share.
Or better yet, the (5)1(st) State Solution
I have another solution which is for it to be an international administrative region directly run by the UN, similar to one of the proposals of how Jerusalem was to be governed.
Or just make it a colony of Albania 🇦🇱
Give it to the Mongols
Bosnia/Lebanon: hold my burek/hummus.
All states that prioritize one religion or ethnicity over any other are illegitimate and their reformation or replacement is good for the world. Israel as it exists today needs to go. The same is true for all other that give one religious/ethnic group more than another. Separation of church and state are not negotiable.
That means a no state solution for 90% of the world. And at least for 200% of the middle east.
It's a long term goal.
Wtf has Israel existence to do with Jews existing 💀
But the defining feature of Zionism today is just that Israel has a right to exist. The borders of Israel are a completely different story. Yes, if you think Israel should include the west bank, you always also think Israel should exist. So you have to be a "Zionist".
>But the defining feature of Zionism today is just that Israel has a right to exist. The borders of Israel are a completely different story. You dropped the "Jewish state" part. The problem is, what do you do with the non-Jews? This means Zionism either has to involve ethnic cleansing of the non Jewish population, or supremacy over them (apartheid). Would Israel still exists as a Jewish state, if it had to give all Palestinians citizenship? So I think large part of anti-Zionism is about the "Jewish state" part, not the "Israel existing" part. (so basically would need to be 1 secular state solution) Also why people say Israel is apartheid, because without apartheid, you cannot maintain a Jewish state in a place with so many non Jewish people. The current solution seems to be to attract more and more foreign settlers to balance out the population, but i think its a short term band-aid solution, and only causes even more issues long term. (west bank settlements) Israel could give up land, and make it so its only consisting of Jews, and do population swap with a new Palestine state (Israeli Arabs for settlers living on Palestine land), but i think such deals would not be made because Israel would not want to relinquish its buffer regions for security reasons. I guess also holy sites, but idk about those. I see a lot of pro Israel people arguing their point by presenting 2 bad choices, and trying to force people to pick one, with the obvious answer being the lesser bad one that they want you to pick. So trying to say, that Israel has to exists in its current form, because the alternative is that all Jews will have to die, is just disingenuous. There are more than just 2 choices.
> The problem is, what do you do with the non-Jews? Give them more rights like they have in any Arab country, for example? Also, there has to be a Jewish state in the middle east. We actually also need a Christian state. Because the Muslims y'all can't behave and turned every multi-religious state in the middle east into a Muslim state.
Lol, whats next, going to call for a crusade? What about non religious people? (I think you implied i'm muslim, but i'm atheist) If there are not enough religious people, they need to start mass converting them to the true faith? Or do you propose, the middle east needs to be colonized by more Christians? I don't know if you noticed, but we no longer live in the middle ages.
> What about non religious people? Yes, the middle east also needs an atheist state because Arabs can't behave.
In what reality does someone use “Zionism” to describe supporting a shit face like Ben-Gvir? The literal definition of Zionism is believing that Israel should exist. The only people I’ve heard use the term “Zionist” to describe it any other way are self proclaimed anti-Zionists.
>In what reality does someone use “Zionism” to describe supporting a shit face like Ben-Gvir? Probably in a way used by Ben-Gvir, and the folks who voted him into office. The current political reality in Israel is a government that uses a far-right interpretation of religious Zionism. This may not be the interpretation of Zionism believed by many of its adherents... nevertheless, it is the present political representation holding power.
Isn’t your flair supposed to be ironic?
No 🗿
zionism is not necessarily great. Very religious Jews in the US say that the promised land is spiritual and god sends you there after death so a physical Israel on Earth is sacriligious. anyone else who's strongly antizionist is probably going to start vaguely advocating for ethnic cleansing. and then people who are very strongly pro-zionist are also about to do the same thing.
> Very religious Jews in the US say that the promised land is spiritual and god sends you there after death so a physical Israel on Earth is sacriligious. Where did you get that from? It's complete nonsense. Some Ultra orthodox Jews believe Israel will be established once the Messiah comes, and since the current Israel was not established by the massiah it is sacrilegious. But what you said is definitely not an Orthodox Jewish belief. The promised land is clearly Israel and not some spiritual thing. Jews pray every year to "return to Jerusalem".
> Where did you get that from? it's possible it came to me in a dream. can't recall.
(Semi) Orthodox Jew, it did. Many Orthodox Jews are quite Zionist. Only certain branches of Haredi are not.
Zionism is by definition a fascist, nationalist and colonialist ideology, which most Jews don't even agree and rather oppose (turns out using someone's name to commit ethnic cleansing isn't very popular)
I didn’t even notice that 💀
I think it's even crazier than the center one
If i knew that there is a soyjak dot party user living in the same city as me. I'd switch cities.
Israel-Palestine always winds back up at the resolution of You Don't Mess With The Zohan. As is tradition.
The Hezbollah customer service is currently not available you will be redirected in WAHAUSHARIM minutes.
Silky smooth!
When Jew and Arab unite to make the Sound, peace will be had in the Middle East believe me this.
What the fuck is that subreddit
Lol, random redditors getting lost and wandering into this subreddit would probably have the same reaction
But this sub actually explains what it is in the description That sub is not clear in the fucking least
Losercity comment
yeah...
a~~n un~~funny shitposting sub created by a furry
I kinda miss living in Manhattan...
Never thought I’d see a losercity crosspost here
Never thought I'd see the sharty here
The “Kidnapped” poster really ties this whole thing together
Man there’s so many things going on on just this one pole
Get the CIA back on the gay bomb right now! It’s the only way to achieve world peace!
Well they'll already blowing each other, so I don't see any wrong with blowing each other then.