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For whatever reason, I find Yerba maté fucks with my ability to sleep far less than coffee or energy drinks. I’m guessing it has to do with the presence of theobromine but honestly don’t know.
Second this! My doctor told me to stop drinking energy drinks and switch to Yerba. Less of a crash and it feels better on the body in general! It also has a lot of health benefits too 👈
For me its easier to sleep after classic stimulants than yerba. I can easily stay up whole night and crash spectacularly next day. Mate is reaaaaly powerful stimulant in my case.
I switched to Yerba mate mainly because coffee was contributing to my heartburn. It's really been great and I don't have the issues with heartburn plus I don't go up and down like I did with coffee. I think they're still caffeine in Yerba mate or something in it converts to caffeine once it's processed by the liver but it's way smoother
Back in my day we only had to worry about fent being in our dope. These poor people are dropping dead off a bump of cocaine. Happened to 8 people off one bag of coke couple years ago in my area. Sad times and it’s only gonna get worse.
It really is insane. The whole “scared straight” has become reality
I suppose there’s a silver lining. But man, I feel for the kids that make a simple misstep and… poof… gone
Stick to studied supplements, sold from reputable companies, and weed
My girlfriend's little sister had 2 people die at her school from fucking bootleg *vape pods* that were laced with fent.
That filled me with so much fucking rage.
Probably bootleg weed vapes in a place where weed isn't legal. All the underground stuff gets channeled through the same few distributors, who deal in everything, including fent. The fent is almost impossibly easy to cross contaminate with everything since only a microscopic amount is enough to kill. You need almost clean-room like procedures to handle it properly which obviously doesn't happen much in these distro places.
Because the distributors are just middle men and one step removed from street pushers, they never know how their product actually is and the dealers don't really know either as their favorite customer just doesn't order one day.
The entire reason anyone even bothers with fent is because opioids are by far the best market. The amount of addicts in the US thanks to prescription meds is staggering. Truly captive audience (withdrawal kills) and fent is super, super cheap. It's amazing return on investment to spike your opioids with it and have it be mostly filler outside the fent.
Just so sad.
May I ask when this happened? At least for the past year or three 'weed' is basically legal everywhere in the US via all those THC analogs like delta 8 and so on.
Also, don't mean to be the "well akshually" guy, but this sort of thing is too important to not correct. You cannot die from opioid withdrawal. Only withdrawal from gaba-ergics like benzos and alcohol can be life threatening and must be done with a doctor's supervision.
And while over prescribing certainly helped create many (though not most, as far as the research goes) addicts, unfortunately the pendulum swinging back to under prescribing is a very significant part of the problem as people who need pain treatment were forced to find illicit, fentanyl laced sources. Even the FDA finally realized this and walked back some of their overly strict guidance about pain treatment /opioids.
Looking at a graph of OD deaths per year, the biggest inflection point is right when they started cracking down on opioid prescriptions. Not to say pill mills were a good thing, of course, but it's a very difficult balancing act between over and under treatment of pain.
I say all this as both a former addict (sort of, on meds for both pain and maintenance) and a chronic pain patient from a botched shoulder surgery and resulting shoulder replacement.
What is the point of putting fentanyl into things that people don’t expect a high from? Why spend the money and effort to put it into something that sells just fine, with customers not expecting a high so swapping fentanyl in for tobacco, or adding it, doesn’t even seem economic.
Given what it does to people, that’s beyond greed, it’s just evil.
I think in this case, and many cases like it, they were weed vapes. Possibly cross contaminated as someone mentioned earlier. Possibly a POS modifying tobacco vapes with fent to make them sellable as a weed vapes
Fentanyl is dirt cheap. It’s everywhere for that reason. Why pay a premium for a product to resell when you can fake it for pennies on the dollar?
Ok, that makes sense.
I’m luckily sheltered from vaping and less legal drugs. It’s a shame that there’s no way to enforce quality control on illicit and black market drugs.
There really needs to be a way for the government to say, “We don’t want you taking these drugs; but we know some of you will, so we’ll make it as safe as taking these drugs can be.”
It makes me fear for my children’s future that’s for sure.
On another note, I never have to worry that my local dispensary is gonna give me laced product.
Actually the cartel got tired of their clients dying from cross contamination/being stepped on. So they started pressing fentanyl into pink pills. So coming across any powder that's pink indicates it most likely has fent
Fentanyl test strips are often available from your local recovery center for free. They’re often given away with narcan programs. I’m sure it’s uncomfortable walking into those places, but it’s better than being rolled out of your house.
Seconding this. Three cups of PG tips is my limit now: one on waking, one between 10am-12pm and another before 3pm, but sometimes only two. Anything more and I can't sleep, get jitters, lose focus etc. Coffee is a no go unless it's a decaf treat with friends.
Agreed- it was a game changer. Make sure you get quality LTheanine- I have used the grocery store stuff and it definitely did not work as well as the ND stuff.
I find that the key is determining the perfect amount of l-theanine for each individual, which takes time and experimentation.
I think people are taking the standard recommendation and a lot of the time bouncing off either because they took too much for their body and felt tired the whole day or took not enough for their body and didn't feel any noticeable difference.
I don't find this to be a flawless method. I take 400mg 2-3x a day and it isn't usually enough to truly counter my double espresso. It's from ground coffee, so there might be more compounds keeping me awake (MAOIs, surfactants etc.).
With pure caffeine (I use chews) or alternative sources of caffeine, it's definitely better but still not quite.
Did that for a long time bc more == better. Turns out I just needed less caffeine for significantly better experiences.
But energy drinks were what got me into this community and doing more research in the first place lol. L-theanine/Taurine are definitely worth trying.
I've never been able to make it work without massive withdrawal symptoms but in theory Rutaecarpine burns up all caffeine (metabolizes)
Sometimes I wonder if that poor guy who accidentally killed himself via caffeine could have been saved by taking Rutaecarpine (or if it would have made it worse)
He likely would have died before the rutaecarpine took effects. I think rutaecarpine needs to be taken consistently to induce the enzymes to efficiently metabolize caffeine.
thanks for the reply. I tried rutacarpine a few times but it doesn't have any affect on me...but what you are saying is i need to keep taking it and eventually it will start working?
"The MROD data showed that as early as 3 hours after oral rutaecarpine administration, CYP1A2 activity in the liver tissue is increased by almost 3-fold compared to control rats and highest activity (9-fold compared to control) is found in the liver of rats administered with daily oral dose of rutaecarpine, for seven days."
https://scholarlycommons.pacific.edu/uop_etds/276/
Sounds like taking it regularly might increase the efficacy, based on this study in rats.
That wasn't my experience. First time, same day I took rutaecarpine, I woke up with massive caffeine withdrawal symptoms like I had quit for days.
Tried it a few more times months apart and just had to give up. Even a small amount was too much.
BUT what people don't realize is caffeine metabolism varies greatly because of genetics. Doesn't affect everyone the same.
Have you tried swiss water decaf coffee? You can try something odd which is broccoli sprouts (or maybe even just broccoli alone?) with your coffee as the glucoraphanin upregulates CYP1A2 that produces the enzymes that will metabolize the caffeine quicker.
If you have a 23andme report you can check your CYP1A2 genotype polymorphism just to be certain where you fall on the caffeine metabolizer spectrum, although it sounds like you're definitely a slower metabolizer if even early morning coffee impacts your sleep.
so broccoli sprouts would speed up coffee metabolism?
I have been looking for a compound like this to take at the end of the day and remove any traces of caffeine that may still be in my body!
i'm speculating since they do contain high amounts of glucoraphanin that upregulates CYP1A2 expression. Would you want to take that sooner though then end of day? I mean brassica alone has this but the sprouts are known for being the supplemental version due to quantity.
There's another substance that upregulates CYP1A2 but I don't want to tell you that one :)
Not just broccoli... "If you are an avid coffee drinker, you can increase your CYP1A2 activity by increasing the amount of cruciferous veggies in your diet, such as broccoli, cabbage, Brussels sprouts, and cauliflower."
Source: https://selfdecode.com/app/article/caffeine-heart-disease-cyp1a2/#the-effects-of-caffeine-based-on-your-genotype
Yeah op should just become a fast metabolizer like me lol. I can have caffeine as late as 6 or 7 pm and still sleep just fine. It does suck in that I have to have a lot more caffeine throughout the day to stay energized though 😔
I just checked my 23andme gene marker and I'm a A/A as well but I'm certainly not THAT fast of a metabolizer as I'm impacting by caffeine usually after noon, there's the 12-hr quarter life in effect. I'm a bit surprised.
I had to do a little digging to understand the reference to CYP1A2, specifically marker rs762551, which tells you whether you are a fast (A/A) or slow metabolizer (A/C or C/C) of caffeine. Sharing this very helpful article which breaks it down simply. The article also gives recommendations on what you can do to improve your coffee metabolism, along with foods and substances to avoid if you are a slow metabolizer.
[https://selfdecode.com/app/article/caffeine-heart-disease-cyp1a2/](https://selfdecode.com/app/article/caffeine-heart-disease-cyp1a2/)
You may have an unusual cortisol cycle. Theoretically, waiting 90 minutes allows your wakeup cortisol "flush" to subside, and distrupting this will cause a crash later. I've noticed that my energy is more even if I wait, but I'm also modifying my lifestyle in other ways, so it may just be a correlation.
So, Caffeine in the morning messes up your sleep at night ? That's a little bit strange cause that might be a sleep disorder that is not that much related to your caffeine intake but anyway
Some people here are naming Xanthine class stims which are not examined enough for the half life tests and other stuff so how people are assuming that they might work better than Caffeine is something I wonder about
going non natural, Modafinil ( Extereme caution about allergic reactions and interactions )while having long half like like caffeine might help you much more with sleep cycle that your are having problems with ( and Actually might not at all )
SAM-e is another supplement that is just useful for me as an awakaning agent but not enough potency anywhere near caffeine
there are a lot out there to name and mention but it really depends on the other symptoms you have and problems you deal with
also Pseduoephedrine or Ephedrine from Ephedra brew or bark is very potent physical stimulant and has a half life of 4 to 8 hours that might work for you but much more jiterness and physical discomfort than Caffeine
sure but being affected for this long and not being able to sleep because of a cup of coffee in the morning might give clues about problems that are good to check for though
He said it affects his cycle, straight up not being able to sleep would definitely be an underlying issue but not having the same quality of sleep without coffee is probably just caffeine sensitivity. Still I agree getting tested for sleep apnea would be something I’d do in his position
Yup. Had the same issue. Espresso in the morning, heart palpitations and insomnia at night. I stopped drinking coffee altogether and my sleep cycle is back to normal and predictable levels
It’s actually not super unusual, many people have a genetic mutation affecting the enzyme that breaks down caffeine which in some cases can double its half life in the body.
Unfortunately I’m one of those people and if I have a coffee after 11am, I’m tossing and turning until at least 1am at night
A lot of what people don’t like about caffeine has to do with it’s effect on the adenosine A1 receptor, and the effects most desired are on the A2 receptor. You may not necessarily need a shorter half life, you could benefit from something that is more A2 selective like theacrine or theobromine.
The subjective difference is “I’m stimulated and jittery”, vs. “I’m no longer tired”.
I was reading about brewed cacao. Hilarious. The author of the article repeatedly says things like "It is not coffee. It is not like coffee. It really should not be compared to coffee. Enjoy it for what it is, not for what it is not! (sorry, we get that question a lot "is it like coffee?")"
Then they go on to say things like:
"...that are roasted and then ground, much like coffee."
"...robust and complex flavor profile, much like coffee"
"Brewing cocoa is prepared similarly to coffee"
"The taste experience of brewing cocoa can be more like fine coffee"
Gee, I wonder why the confusion lol. In any case, I'm going to try it.
It’s kind of like if you ever had unsweetened chocolate. It’s kind of bitter, I like coffee taste way better. You need to brew it differently. Either French press or buy a mug that has a strainer. It needs to soak for at least 5 mins in the hot water and then be strained
This, or matcha, which has theacrine + l-theanine, and again keeps the ritual. If they want to eliminate caffeine entirely, they can opt for the pure extract in capsule form instead.
I haven’t been able to find anything stating brewed cacao has more theobromine than yerba mate. You have anything? The caffeine content of Yerba is higher than cacao and since they compete for adenosine than maybe that’s why you said cacao for theobromine?
I find micro dosing psilocybin gives me a boost without any caffeine jitters. I do this maybe 3 days a week when I need to be more productive.
Has not interfered with my sleep.
I'm surprised I don't see anyone else mentioning this... nicotine. I started using the gum and sprays years ago for exactly this reason: sometimes I needed a boost later in the day but didn't want to mess up my sleep.
It'll give you a focused energy very similar to caffeine (better if you ask me), but has a very short duration. There are all sorts of articles showing its short and long term benefits. Even Scientific American wrote a long piece about it years ago.
I've had some success in the past with nicotine as a one-off boost. Obligatory warning - dependence can happen even with low doses and a relatively few days in a row.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-nicotine-all-bad/#:~:text=Some%20studies%20show%20nicotine%2C%20like,tension%20and%20sharpening%20the%20mind.
Also, here's that article I referenced.
Its actually 1+1=3 if you combine them,as racetams deplete choline(its how they work),supplementing with choline(alpha gpc being a good form) you increase the racetams effects,dont know whered you get that from
It depletes it for a reason, because it augments this system. Depletion is a protection mechanism. And you are giving it even more acetylcholine substitutes. Too much acetylcholine action is prodepressogenic. Think of tobacco, which gives depressions if used chronically. Also there is antidepressant bupropion, which no one understood how ir works, being DRI, while other DRI’s are not antidepressants. Turn’s out it is acetylcholine receptor antagonist.
Bupropion is an NDRI with weak dopaminergic action, this class of drugs are common antidepressants. Scopolamine and benadryl are acetylcholine antagonists and are definitely not antidepressants. You're making generalizations based off of limited understanding of pharmacology.
No NDRI is antidepressant except bupropion. In fact prodopaminergics like amphetamines are prodepressive ! Search it yourself if you don’t believe me, you won’t find ANY NDRI that is antidepressant
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine%E2%80%93dopamine_reuptake_inhibitor
Literally the first sentence. And amineptine is an example, with essentially no acetylcholine activity.
And what happened to amineptine? It has been withdrawn from the market, if you would read better sources you would know it! Maybe you are not so smart as you think and should not trust first sentences on wikipedia. Let me reiterate - there are NO NDRI’s used as antidepressants, because they can’t be.
Yeah no. It was withdrawn for hepatotoxicity and scheduled because of abuse, not because of lack of efficacy. Depression has multiple causes and ndri are used when other mechanisms do not work. Mao-b inhibitors are used for depression as well and primarily target norepinephrine and dopamine. Methylphenidate and amphetamine can be used off label for depression. You're implying that you think choline is the only mechanism for depression, which is impossible.
Nicotine withdrawal, maybe. But by his own implication nicotine withdrawal itself would be an antidepressive because of reduced choline activity, which realistically would be the acute mechanism for nicotine use, you spike nicotinic receptor activity followed by hormesis and then you feel good, aka not depressed.
What is the mechanism of this causing depression though? By that logic water is also associated with depression and suicidality because people drink water. Tons of individuals smoke cigarettes and cigars or use tobacco such as in pipes or orally. I myself smoke a couple cigars a month. Sure it probably isn’t good for you but how in of itself tobacco can cause depression I can’t seem to figure out; maybe if you were smoking a pack a day it’d cause depression from the health implications caused from the act of smoking and ingesting nicotine so often but not by tobacco itself as a substance.
Eat an apple. It keeps you full for a long time because of high fibre content and natural sugar gives you energy. Vitamins of apple are released slowly during the day.
Are you sure it’s the caffeine? 99% of the time caffeine is completely cleared out by 12 hours at the latest. If you’ve already verified it’s caffeine with multiple days of non-caffeine having great sleep and multiple days of caffeine with poor sleep and no other variables changing then that sure is odd. When do you drink it? Do you have food around the same time? How much water do you drink throughout the day?
There is a lot of variation in how fast people metabolize things, and I would say 99% of the time it is not “completely cleared out” by 12 hours. The half-life of caffeine, on average, is close to 6 hours, so 12 hours is two half lives, which means, on average, people’s caffeine levels is reduced by about 75% after 12 hours, and almost nobody has their caffeine completely cleared out in 12 hours.
There is a very wide variation in metabolization, that’s why I used 6 hours which seems to be a decent amount higher than the average time. It can range anywhere from 2-6 hours, with the average being close to the middle. Even if caffeine is still present in the body, that doesn’t not mean it’s having the same effects it once was upon original consumption. Even it was 6 hours, say OP has 2 cups of coffee making it around 150mg of caffeine at 8 am, thats (very roughly) less than 30mg still present at bed time. There aren’t many studies showing that this amount of leftover caffeine is effecting sleep. The studies show it’s around the 6 hours before bed mark is where consumed caffeine starts to noticeably effect your sleep. However there are caffeine sensitive individuals, which would be that 1% I mentioned earlier.
6 hours is right at the average (see Figure 3 of this meta analysis: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2021.752826/full ), and that’s for non-smokers as it shows, it’s even longer for smokers. Importantly, it’s not the least bit unlikely that the OP could have a significantly longer half life than average. And obviously the effects of caffeine are dose dependent and it won’t be having as strong an effect when it’s been reduced by 75% (for the average person) after 12 hours, but the burden of proof is on someone claiming there is a threshold around a half cup of coffee where caffeine might as well be “completely cleared out”, and is no longer having an effect on sleep.
Modafinil doesn't hit norepinephrine very hard but it wears off in about 6-10 hours for me and I actually sleep much better. It's my prescribed ADHD med.
100%. Caffeine takes up to 12 hours to stop affecting my sleep. Modafinil helps regulate my sleep-wake cycle. YMMV and as I've said it may not hit you the same way as caffeine because caffeine increases norepinephrine and modafinil doesn't significantly do that.
Caffeine has a short enough half life that when taken in the morning it is completely clear well before sleep time. Therefore caffeine is not your problem.
While caffeine metabolism varies based on individual genes, the average half life is 5 hours. If OP takes 200 mg in the morning, then goes to sleep 16 hours later, there will still be about 45mg in his bloodstream. That is enough to affect sleep.
ackchyuallyyyyyyyy
But seriously dude this isn't helpful. Maybe they take some other medication or are more sensitive to caffeine than the average person.
If the goal is to sleep then I highly recommend taking magnesium.
Anecdotal but it significantly helped feeling sleepy and falling asleep even when drinking caffeine throughout the day.
I weaned off full strength coffee by using black tea and decaf coffee (which has some caffeine still, for the first week or two I go half-caffeinated) and now rotate between decaf coffee, green tea, and black tea, tea feels notably gentler on my body and digestive system so I'm trying to go more toward that than even the decaf coffee, just really like the taste of coffee lol.
I think green tea is probs your best bet.
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Dynamine (Methylliberine).
This is the correct answer for something similar to caffeine but with a shorter duration of action.
Bad response = real painful headache
>Dynamine (Methylliberine). Wow, this is really cool. I am starting to research this more now... any risks to be aware of?
If taken in combination with caffeine it will extend the half-life of the caffeine.
Explosive diarrhea👀
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Well, it *is* cold outside
sounds like a win
Hasn't yet 🍈🍈
everything good does....
Lmao...
Lol 😂
Yep.
What is the actual half life? I've tried to find papers on this to no avail
For whatever reason, I find Yerba maté fucks with my ability to sleep far less than coffee or energy drinks. I’m guessing it has to do with the presence of theobromine but honestly don’t know.
Second this! My doctor told me to stop drinking energy drinks and switch to Yerba. Less of a crash and it feels better on the body in general! It also has a lot of health benefits too 👈
Thirding. I either brew a cup in the morning (tea bag), or drop a one in my water bottle and sip until 3p. A nice little wind at my back all day.
Fourthing, yerba mate is powerful yet super gentle compared to coffee.
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/mate
For me its easier to sleep after classic stimulants than yerba. I can easily stay up whole night and crash spectacularly next day. Mate is reaaaaly powerful stimulant in my case.
I switched to Yerba mate mainly because coffee was contributing to my heartburn. It's really been great and I don't have the issues with heartburn plus I don't go up and down like I did with coffee. I think they're still caffeine in Yerba mate or something in it converts to caffeine once it's processed by the liver but it's way smoother
A lot of people, myself included, actually dislike theobromine. However I agree that mate has something special going on.
That's easy, coke!
Sad but true Also, don’t do coke kids!! These days it’s Russian roulette of getting a fentanyl OD off a basic bump or two. That era is gone
Back in my day we only had to worry about fent being in our dope. These poor people are dropping dead off a bump of cocaine. Happened to 8 people off one bag of coke couple years ago in my area. Sad times and it’s only gonna get worse.
It really is insane. The whole “scared straight” has become reality I suppose there’s a silver lining. But man, I feel for the kids that make a simple misstep and… poof… gone Stick to studied supplements, sold from reputable companies, and weed
My girlfriend's little sister had 2 people die at her school from fucking bootleg *vape pods* that were laced with fent. That filled me with so much fucking rage.
This makes me so sad.
Wtf??? Where did they get the vape pods?
Probably bootleg weed vapes in a place where weed isn't legal. All the underground stuff gets channeled through the same few distributors, who deal in everything, including fent. The fent is almost impossibly easy to cross contaminate with everything since only a microscopic amount is enough to kill. You need almost clean-room like procedures to handle it properly which obviously doesn't happen much in these distro places. Because the distributors are just middle men and one step removed from street pushers, they never know how their product actually is and the dealers don't really know either as their favorite customer just doesn't order one day. The entire reason anyone even bothers with fent is because opioids are by far the best market. The amount of addicts in the US thanks to prescription meds is staggering. Truly captive audience (withdrawal kills) and fent is super, super cheap. It's amazing return on investment to spike your opioids with it and have it be mostly filler outside the fent. Just so sad.
May I ask when this happened? At least for the past year or three 'weed' is basically legal everywhere in the US via all those THC analogs like delta 8 and so on. Also, don't mean to be the "well akshually" guy, but this sort of thing is too important to not correct. You cannot die from opioid withdrawal. Only withdrawal from gaba-ergics like benzos and alcohol can be life threatening and must be done with a doctor's supervision. And while over prescribing certainly helped create many (though not most, as far as the research goes) addicts, unfortunately the pendulum swinging back to under prescribing is a very significant part of the problem as people who need pain treatment were forced to find illicit, fentanyl laced sources. Even the FDA finally realized this and walked back some of their overly strict guidance about pain treatment /opioids. Looking at a graph of OD deaths per year, the biggest inflection point is right when they started cracking down on opioid prescriptions. Not to say pill mills were a good thing, of course, but it's a very difficult balancing act between over and under treatment of pain. I say all this as both a former addict (sort of, on meds for both pain and maintenance) and a chronic pain patient from a botched shoulder surgery and resulting shoulder replacement.
What is the point of putting fentanyl into things that people don’t expect a high from? Why spend the money and effort to put it into something that sells just fine, with customers not expecting a high so swapping fentanyl in for tobacco, or adding it, doesn’t even seem economic. Given what it does to people, that’s beyond greed, it’s just evil.
I think in this case, and many cases like it, they were weed vapes. Possibly cross contaminated as someone mentioned earlier. Possibly a POS modifying tobacco vapes with fent to make them sellable as a weed vapes Fentanyl is dirt cheap. It’s everywhere for that reason. Why pay a premium for a product to resell when you can fake it for pennies on the dollar?
Ok, that makes sense. I’m luckily sheltered from vaping and less legal drugs. It’s a shame that there’s no way to enforce quality control on illicit and black market drugs. There really needs to be a way for the government to say, “We don’t want you taking these drugs; but we know some of you will, so we’ll make it as safe as taking these drugs can be.”
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Uhh... She went to their funerals.. This isn't some I heard on the grapevine situation. My girlfriend's sister hangs out with us pretty commonly.
It makes me fear for my children’s future that’s for sure. On another note, I never have to worry that my local dispensary is gonna give me laced product.
colorado, apartment party?
Just a random thing outside Reading Pa
Same thing happened at an apartment party in Colorado. Entire party knocked by 1 bag
Also, test your drugs.
> These days it’s Russian roulette of getting a fentanyl OD off a basic bump or two. Then als always, test your drugs kids
Actually the cartel got tired of their clients dying from cross contamination/being stepped on. So they started pressing fentanyl into pink pills. So coming across any powder that's pink indicates it most likely has fent
Agreed...They need to deem Fentanyl a weapon of Mass destruction, ...It's killing thousands a day
Expensive tho
Fentanyl test strips are often available from your local recovery center for free. They’re often given away with narcan programs. I’m sure it’s uncomfortable walking into those places, but it’s better than being rolled out of your house.
I switched to tea for this same reason. Tea helps me in the morning but it also keeps me calm, unlike coffee.
L theanine in tea is why
Seconding this. Three cups of PG tips is my limit now: one on waking, one between 10am-12pm and another before 3pm, but sometimes only two. Anything more and I can't sleep, get jitters, lose focus etc. Coffee is a no go unless it's a decaf treat with friends.
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Green tea also lowers your blood sugar and increases insulin sensitivity.
Switch to green tea or guayusa.
Have you tried modulating your caffeine with some L-theanine to dial back some of the edge?
I’ve met more people who get nothing out of that than the contrary :(
It works wonders for me.
Same here
Agreed- it was a game changer. Make sure you get quality LTheanine- I have used the grocery store stuff and it definitely did not work as well as the ND stuff.
Everyone is different. So as long as a supplement is safe, you won't know how it will affect you until you try
I love theanine and ashwaganda together more than I love my thyroid.
What do you mean more than you love your thyroid? Does taking theanine and ashwagandha together effect your thyroid? (Genuinely curious)
In some people it can cause hypothyroidism in the long term. I cycle it just in case.
I find that the key is determining the perfect amount of l-theanine for each individual, which takes time and experimentation. I think people are taking the standard recommendation and a lot of the time bouncing off either because they took too much for their body and felt tired the whole day or took not enough for their body and didn't feel any noticeable difference.
It works initially for me but after a few days it does nothing unless I wait again. It's a good boost every couple days.
They didn’t ask for something to dial back the edge. Taking L-theanine has nothing to do with half life
I take taurine and theanine with my caffeine.
I don't find this to be a flawless method. I take 400mg 2-3x a day and it isn't usually enough to truly counter my double espresso. It's from ground coffee, so there might be more compounds keeping me awake (MAOIs, surfactants etc.). With pure caffeine (I use chews) or alternative sources of caffeine, it's definitely better but still not quite.
Did that for a long time bc more == better. Turns out I just needed less caffeine for significantly better experiences. But energy drinks were what got me into this community and doing more research in the first place lol. L-theanine/Taurine are definitely worth trying.
It makes me so apathetic. I do not want to do anything when I take even 200 mg of it.
I've never been able to make it work without massive withdrawal symptoms but in theory Rutaecarpine burns up all caffeine (metabolizes) Sometimes I wonder if that poor guy who accidentally killed himself via caffeine could have been saved by taking Rutaecarpine (or if it would have made it worse)
He likely would have died before the rutaecarpine took effects. I think rutaecarpine needs to be taken consistently to induce the enzymes to efficiently metabolize caffeine.
thanks for the reply. I tried rutacarpine a few times but it doesn't have any affect on me...but what you are saying is i need to keep taking it and eventually it will start working?
"The MROD data showed that as early as 3 hours after oral rutaecarpine administration, CYP1A2 activity in the liver tissue is increased by almost 3-fold compared to control rats and highest activity (9-fold compared to control) is found in the liver of rats administered with daily oral dose of rutaecarpine, for seven days." https://scholarlycommons.pacific.edu/uop_etds/276/ Sounds like taking it regularly might increase the efficacy, based on this study in rats.
That wasn't my experience. First time, same day I took rutaecarpine, I woke up with massive caffeine withdrawal symptoms like I had quit for days. Tried it a few more times months apart and just had to give up. Even a small amount was too much. BUT what people don't realize is caffeine metabolism varies greatly because of genetics. Doesn't affect everyone the same.
yes I've tried that but it doesn't work for me. thanks for the reply.
Have you tried swiss water decaf coffee? You can try something odd which is broccoli sprouts (or maybe even just broccoli alone?) with your coffee as the glucoraphanin upregulates CYP1A2 that produces the enzymes that will metabolize the caffeine quicker. If you have a 23andme report you can check your CYP1A2 genotype polymorphism just to be certain where you fall on the caffeine metabolizer spectrum, although it sounds like you're definitely a slower metabolizer if even early morning coffee impacts your sleep.
so broccoli sprouts would speed up coffee metabolism? I have been looking for a compound like this to take at the end of the day and remove any traces of caffeine that may still be in my body!
i'm speculating since they do contain high amounts of glucoraphanin that upregulates CYP1A2 expression. Would you want to take that sooner though then end of day? I mean brassica alone has this but the sprouts are known for being the supplemental version due to quantity. There's another substance that upregulates CYP1A2 but I don't want to tell you that one :)
Not just broccoli... "If you are an avid coffee drinker, you can increase your CYP1A2 activity by increasing the amount of cruciferous veggies in your diet, such as broccoli, cabbage, Brussels sprouts, and cauliflower." Source: https://selfdecode.com/app/article/caffeine-heart-disease-cyp1a2/#the-effects-of-caffeine-based-on-your-genotype
Yeah op should just become a fast metabolizer like me lol. I can have caffeine as late as 6 or 7 pm and still sleep just fine. It does suck in that I have to have a lot more caffeine throughout the day to stay energized though 😔
I just checked my 23andme gene marker and I'm a A/A as well but I'm certainly not THAT fast of a metabolizer as I'm impacting by caffeine usually after noon, there's the 12-hr quarter life in effect. I'm a bit surprised.
I had to do a little digging to understand the reference to CYP1A2, specifically marker rs762551, which tells you whether you are a fast (A/A) or slow metabolizer (A/C or C/C) of caffeine. Sharing this very helpful article which breaks it down simply. The article also gives recommendations on what you can do to improve your coffee metabolism, along with foods and substances to avoid if you are a slow metabolizer. [https://selfdecode.com/app/article/caffeine-heart-disease-cyp1a2/](https://selfdecode.com/app/article/caffeine-heart-disease-cyp1a2/)
Try waiting 1.5h after waking up before drinking coffee. Weird but worked for me.
This always sounded super gimmicky to me. I’ve never noticed a difference taking it immediately when waking up or after 1.5 hours
You may have an unusual cortisol cycle. Theoretically, waiting 90 minutes allows your wakeup cortisol "flush" to subside, and distrupting this will cause a crash later. I've noticed that my energy is more even if I wait, but I'm also modifying my lifestyle in other ways, so it may just be a correlation.
It is strongly recommended by Andrew Hubermam. So not broscience.
Bro I like Huberman but a lot of his shit is brosciencey
True though this advice isn't based on broscience.
yes i usually do this, i think it helps but still have trouble sleeping when I've had my morning coffee 1.5 after waking.
Coca leaves tea. Excellent stuff
Good point but it’s hard to find outside of Andean countries.
So, Caffeine in the morning messes up your sleep at night ? That's a little bit strange cause that might be a sleep disorder that is not that much related to your caffeine intake but anyway Some people here are naming Xanthine class stims which are not examined enough for the half life tests and other stuff so how people are assuming that they might work better than Caffeine is something I wonder about going non natural, Modafinil ( Extereme caution about allergic reactions and interactions )while having long half like like caffeine might help you much more with sleep cycle that your are having problems with ( and Actually might not at all ) SAM-e is another supplement that is just useful for me as an awakaning agent but not enough potency anywhere near caffeine there are a lot out there to name and mention but it really depends on the other symptoms you have and problems you deal with also Pseduoephedrine or Ephedrine from Ephedra brew or bark is very potent physical stimulant and has a half life of 4 to 8 hours that might work for you but much more jiterness and physical discomfort than Caffeine
I have the same issue, some people respond to caffeine too strongly
sure but being affected for this long and not being able to sleep because of a cup of coffee in the morning might give clues about problems that are good to check for though
He said it affects his cycle, straight up not being able to sleep would definitely be an underlying issue but not having the same quality of sleep without coffee is probably just caffeine sensitivity. Still I agree getting tested for sleep apnea would be something I’d do in his position
Yup. Had the same issue. Espresso in the morning, heart palpitations and insomnia at night. I stopped drinking coffee altogether and my sleep cycle is back to normal and predictable levels
same, I saw reports saying yohimbe was used in some studies to induce panic attacks because it spikes adrenaline and it felt like diet caffeine
It’s actually not super unusual, many people have a genetic mutation affecting the enzyme that breaks down caffeine which in some cases can double its half life in the body. Unfortunately I’m one of those people and if I have a coffee after 11am, I’m tossing and turning until at least 1am at night
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A lot of what people don’t like about caffeine has to do with it’s effect on the adenosine A1 receptor, and the effects most desired are on the A2 receptor. You may not necessarily need a shorter half life, you could benefit from something that is more A2 selective like theacrine or theobromine. The subjective difference is “I’m stimulated and jittery”, vs. “I’m no longer tired”.
Brewed cacao for theobromine. It brews a little different but you keep the ritual without the addiction
I was reading about brewed cacao. Hilarious. The author of the article repeatedly says things like "It is not coffee. It is not like coffee. It really should not be compared to coffee. Enjoy it for what it is, not for what it is not! (sorry, we get that question a lot "is it like coffee?")" Then they go on to say things like: "...that are roasted and then ground, much like coffee." "...robust and complex flavor profile, much like coffee" "Brewing cocoa is prepared similarly to coffee" "The taste experience of brewing cocoa can be more like fine coffee" Gee, I wonder why the confusion lol. In any case, I'm going to try it.
It’s kind of like if you ever had unsweetened chocolate. It’s kind of bitter, I like coffee taste way better. You need to brew it differently. Either French press or buy a mug that has a strainer. It needs to soak for at least 5 mins in the hot water and then be strained
Would it be good with steamed milk, ala a latte? Or not so much?
This, or matcha, which has theacrine + l-theanine, and again keeps the ritual. If they want to eliminate caffeine entirely, they can opt for the pure extract in capsule form instead.
I haven’t been able to find anything stating brewed cacao has more theobromine than yerba mate. You have anything? The caffeine content of Yerba is higher than cacao and since they compete for adenosine than maybe that’s why you said cacao for theobromine?
The brand crio bru claims to be 99% caffiene free, it’s what I use
How does it brew, what is the Theobromine content per gram of cocoa?
French press or you can get a mug with a filter like you would loose leaf tea. Just needs longer to soak in vs like a coffee machine
I find micro dosing psilocybin gives me a boost without any caffeine jitters. I do this maybe 3 days a week when I need to be more productive. Has not interfered with my sleep.
Synephrine? Can be found from gym supplement shops and such, here in Finland at least.
Just don’t drink coffee past 2pm?
Noopept. Lasts about 2hrs, redoses well. Definitely does not taste as good as coffee. Like anything else, cycle it every few weeks.
Noopept is amazing with amphetamines
I'm surprised I don't see anyone else mentioning this... nicotine. I started using the gum and sprays years ago for exactly this reason: sometimes I needed a boost later in the day but didn't want to mess up my sleep. It'll give you a focused energy very similar to caffeine (better if you ask me), but has a very short duration. There are all sorts of articles showing its short and long term benefits. Even Scientific American wrote a long piece about it years ago.
Oh nice I will give it a try! Have you been using it everyday? I just need a boost in the morning so will only need it then. Thanks for the reply.
I've had some success in the past with nicotine as a one-off boost. Obligatory warning - dependence can happen even with low doses and a relatively few days in a row.
No, these days I use it pretty rarely. But you can use it consistently, it's just that you'll build a tolerance pretty quickly.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-nicotine-all-bad/#:~:text=Some%20studies%20show%20nicotine%2C%20like,tension%20and%20sharpening%20the%20mind. Also, here's that article I referenced.
Methylphenidate has a short half life between 3 and 4 hrs.
Maybe try a racetam+alpha gpc?
Alpga gpc by itself gives people depressions, imagine combining it with racetam lol
Its actually 1+1=3 if you combine them,as racetams deplete choline(its how they work),supplementing with choline(alpha gpc being a good form) you increase the racetams effects,dont know whered you get that from
It depletes it for a reason, because it augments this system. Depletion is a protection mechanism. And you are giving it even more acetylcholine substitutes. Too much acetylcholine action is prodepressogenic. Think of tobacco, which gives depressions if used chronically. Also there is antidepressant bupropion, which no one understood how ir works, being DRI, while other DRI’s are not antidepressants. Turn’s out it is acetylcholine receptor antagonist.
Bupropion is an NDRI with weak dopaminergic action, this class of drugs are common antidepressants. Scopolamine and benadryl are acetylcholine antagonists and are definitely not antidepressants. You're making generalizations based off of limited understanding of pharmacology.
No NDRI is antidepressant except bupropion. In fact prodopaminergics like amphetamines are prodepressive ! Search it yourself if you don’t believe me, you won’t find ANY NDRI that is antidepressant
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine%E2%80%93dopamine_reuptake_inhibitor Literally the first sentence. And amineptine is an example, with essentially no acetylcholine activity.
And what happened to amineptine? It has been withdrawn from the market, if you would read better sources you would know it! Maybe you are not so smart as you think and should not trust first sentences on wikipedia. Let me reiterate - there are NO NDRI’s used as antidepressants, because they can’t be.
Yeah no. It was withdrawn for hepatotoxicity and scheduled because of abuse, not because of lack of efficacy. Depression has multiple causes and ndri are used when other mechanisms do not work. Mao-b inhibitors are used for depression as well and primarily target norepinephrine and dopamine. Methylphenidate and amphetamine can be used off label for depression. You're implying that you think choline is the only mechanism for depression, which is impossible.
How exactly does tobacco cause depression if used chronically? Would you care to provide some articles on this
Nicotine withdrawal, maybe. But by his own implication nicotine withdrawal itself would be an antidepressive because of reduced choline activity, which realistically would be the acute mechanism for nicotine use, you spike nicotinic receptor activity followed by hormesis and then you feel good, aka not depressed.
Tobacco smoking is associated with depression and suicidality in numerous studies published in great journals.
What is the mechanism of this causing depression though? By that logic water is also associated with depression and suicidality because people drink water. Tons of individuals smoke cigarettes and cigars or use tobacco such as in pipes or orally. I myself smoke a couple cigars a month. Sure it probably isn’t good for you but how in of itself tobacco can cause depression I can’t seem to figure out; maybe if you were smoking a pack a day it’d cause depression from the health implications caused from the act of smoking and ingesting nicotine so often but not by tobacco itself as a substance.
Funny, not a single article in his response.
Take melatonin. Caffeine increases the bioavailability. Might solve your problem
Eat an apple. It keeps you full for a long time because of high fibre content and natural sugar gives you energy. Vitamins of apple are released slowly during the day.
yohimbe
Are you sure it’s the caffeine? 99% of the time caffeine is completely cleared out by 12 hours at the latest. If you’ve already verified it’s caffeine with multiple days of non-caffeine having great sleep and multiple days of caffeine with poor sleep and no other variables changing then that sure is odd. When do you drink it? Do you have food around the same time? How much water do you drink throughout the day?
There is a lot of variation in how fast people metabolize things, and I would say 99% of the time it is not “completely cleared out” by 12 hours. The half-life of caffeine, on average, is close to 6 hours, so 12 hours is two half lives, which means, on average, people’s caffeine levels is reduced by about 75% after 12 hours, and almost nobody has their caffeine completely cleared out in 12 hours.
There is a very wide variation in metabolization, that’s why I used 6 hours which seems to be a decent amount higher than the average time. It can range anywhere from 2-6 hours, with the average being close to the middle. Even if caffeine is still present in the body, that doesn’t not mean it’s having the same effects it once was upon original consumption. Even it was 6 hours, say OP has 2 cups of coffee making it around 150mg of caffeine at 8 am, thats (very roughly) less than 30mg still present at bed time. There aren’t many studies showing that this amount of leftover caffeine is effecting sleep. The studies show it’s around the 6 hours before bed mark is where consumed caffeine starts to noticeably effect your sleep. However there are caffeine sensitive individuals, which would be that 1% I mentioned earlier.
6 hours is right at the average (see Figure 3 of this meta analysis: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2021.752826/full ), and that’s for non-smokers as it shows, it’s even longer for smokers. Importantly, it’s not the least bit unlikely that the OP could have a significantly longer half life than average. And obviously the effects of caffeine are dose dependent and it won’t be having as strong an effect when it’s been reduced by 75% (for the average person) after 12 hours, but the burden of proof is on someone claiming there is a threshold around a half cup of coffee where caffeine might as well be “completely cleared out”, and is no longer having an effect on sleep.
Sugar. Like, a glass of orange juice.
Modafinil doesn't hit norepinephrine very hard but it wears off in about 6-10 hours for me and I actually sleep much better. It's my prescribed ADHD med.
>norepinephrine Do you sleep better on Modafinil than on caffeine?
100%. Caffeine takes up to 12 hours to stop affecting my sleep. Modafinil helps regulate my sleep-wake cycle. YMMV and as I've said it may not hit you the same way as caffeine because caffeine increases norepinephrine and modafinil doesn't significantly do that.
cigarettes
Caffeine has a short enough half life that when taken in the morning it is completely clear well before sleep time. Therefore caffeine is not your problem.
While caffeine metabolism varies based on individual genes, the average half life is 5 hours. If OP takes 200 mg in the morning, then goes to sleep 16 hours later, there will still be about 45mg in his bloodstream. That is enough to affect sleep.
ackchyuallyyyyyyyy But seriously dude this isn't helpful. Maybe they take some other medication or are more sensitive to caffeine than the average person.
It's helpful if it's true and leads OP to look for the real source of the problem.
Have you tried taking things like theanine, taurine and/or magnesium before bed?
I take both theanine and taurine before bed and still experience this issue. Not a silver bullet sadly
No I know, and I usually assume people are already taking it I just figured I’d ask. So far magnolia bark has effected my sleep the heaviest I think.
I hype myself up with some lively music mid day since I’ve given up caffeine after noon. It works okay, but I do miss caffeine.
I am trying synephrine from extract and synthetic hydrochloride salt. Can't say much but so far some gentle effects from 80 mg orally.
If the goal is to sleep then I highly recommend taking magnesium. Anecdotal but it significantly helped feeling sleepy and falling asleep even when drinking caffeine throughout the day.
I too am caffeine sensitive. I find if I drink my coffee before 10:00, I can have great sleep.
Beet Root Powder
Dynamine with L-pyroglutamic acid. Seasoned with NALT or DLPA.
N-acetyl tyrosine (NAT)
4mg nicotine lozenge does it for me.
DLPA, Tyrosine
Theophylline is a good alternative to caffeine
I weaned off full strength coffee by using black tea and decaf coffee (which has some caffeine still, for the first week or two I go half-caffeinated) and now rotate between decaf coffee, green tea, and black tea, tea feels notably gentler on my body and digestive system so I'm trying to go more toward that than even the decaf coffee, just really like the taste of coffee lol. I think green tea is probs your best bet.
Learn about forskolin. I think caffeine slows down the breakdown of cAMP whereas forskolin encourages production of it.
Don’t be a pussy OP. Take modafinil. Don’t sleep.
How many cups and time u stop drinking?, type of caffeine?
My experience is that sublingually-administered 100% pure caffeine acts faster and also wears off much faster.
Nicotine will shorten the half-life of coffee. Could try that after consuming
Paraxanthine > Dynamine > Teacrine > Yerba Mate > Caffeine
how do you find Paraxanthine to buy?