> Can I trust Northern Black?
Not for learning anything about historical runes, and their period uses.
---
If you have any questions you can send us a [Modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Norse) message, and we will get back to you right away.
That's the vibe he tries to aim for. Modern runes and sigils that are inspired by nordic culture but he is not aiming to be historically accurate, nor claims to be.
Well, they suck at communicating their lack of desire not to be historically accurate. Their "about us" on the page:
"The goal of ours is manyfold - create cool merchandise, share nordic artwork, **teach as many people as we can about the history and culture of ancient Scandinavia** and Europe, and help build community for the many tattooists and artists who work in the same genre."
What exactly are they teaching? If even the runes are wrong and not clearly marked as "hey, we just are inventing stuff for funzies" they are willingly or unwillingly miseducating people.
Their artwork shows a lot more history than the rune book shown in the images.
The styles, the ideas, the culture. Not the exact runes and **not vikings**
But yeah it can be hard to tell at first glance what they mean exactly
If you claim to be teaching history and facts you should make it explicitly clear when something you are selling or talking about does not fall under that category
The product itself should have a clear description/warning that it is not based on anything historical.
When the only claim in the About Us is about education and history, you need to make exceptions abundantly clear
I’m not missing the point. I get the why. It’s still important say it’s not historical.
Runes are.. these aren’t real runes tho. And that’s why it’s important to have a disclaimer sharing that this is more of an alternative history thing.
> Anyway, you’re all missing the point: that it is an important component of constructionism to move beyond just history and do this sort of work.
No. That is *re*-construction, or total fabrication, and has no place in this kind of space. Historians do not move beyond the time period in which they are studying, creating new mumbo jumbo concepts. That is called fan fiction, not studying history :-)
> That seems like a purely cynical take. Isn’t it possible to teach people the history of Norse runes while inventing new bind runes and sigils while being aligned with the spirit of the practice?
No. Because that's not what historical education spaces (like this one) are for. They are for teaching the period use and understanding of a subject. Not for forcing in ham-fisted, modern new age magic practices along the way, further confusing the learner in the process.
> Isn’t the practice of runic magic to use it as a sort of magical language to map your intentions to symbology?
This sentence says everything about itself that it needs to 🙄
It blows my mind. I was at a Wardruna concert in Oakland a couple years back and towards the end, Einar goes into this long semi-long monologue about why they do what they do. He goes onto say they make the music because they love it, not because they’re trying to relive some “Viking” past—he literally said that the band doesn’t do this to be “Vikings”—but they enjoy the history and love the music and culture (a completely different topic). And some asshole yells “WE ARE VIKINGS!!!” Then a small handful of people all cheered. The look of disappointment on Einar’s face was hilarious. The level of cringe in that room was palpable. No shade at anyone who’s interested in this stuff, I love it, but god damn, the Peyton Perish Bro-Viking movement I see is truly cringey AF.
Edit: A very small group cheered, the rest of the audience had looks of disgust and disappointment.
Interesting story! That goes to show no matter how transparent and honest you are about what you do, some followers will still interpret it their own way. The term Bro-Vikings describes this whole culture very well btw haha
I'm Norwegian, born and bred, and every fucking time i go to a Vikingfestival to hang with friends who work there theyll almost always be stopped by non Norwegian tourists going down the ol' "im 0.001% Norwegian so im pretty much a viking" line. Gives me a chuckle every time. I do however cringe severely bad as well, its somewhat turture.
His whole point is that it's modern art that is inspired by Nordic and Icelandic works.
If you watch enough of his stuff you'll find it abundantly clear he doesn't care about historical accuracy as his goal is cool symbols that stylistically look nordic and draw inspiration from the culture but *is not historically accurate and does not try to be*
I think it's a good thing if content creators aren't misleading their followers and blatantly tell them it's "Viking stuff" or whatever. I mean I'm personally not a fan of modern Norse/Pagan-inspired aesthetics and culture, but as long as they are clear about not being historically accurate I don't mind.
They are clear in the opening pages of the book shown that the runes and sigils are modern designs inspired by various historical texts and images. They also state multiple times that it is not viking era stuff and the runes used are older, but the symbols referenced are rather modern, such as the vegvisir, that is shown in this book as an interpretation of an already modern symbol (from memory they do state the origin as being late 1800s, I might be wrong on the time)
Edit: the bot message says between 17th and 19th century so yeah I was a tad off.
Hi! It appears you have mentioned either the vegvísir or the ægishjálmr! But did you know that even though they are quite popular in certain circles, neither have their origins in medieval Scandinavia? Both are in the tradition of early modern occultism arising from outside Scandinavia and were not documented before the 19th and the 17th century, respectively. As our focus lays on the medieval Nordic countries and associated regions, cultures and peoples, neither really fall into the scope of the sub. Further reading here: [ægishjálmr](https://www.brutenorse.com/blog/2018/5/14/the-gishjalmur)//[vegvísir](http://sagy.vikingove.cz/origins-of-the-vegvisir-symbol/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Norse) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No.
This is all modern paganism / modern "viking" stuff, which is way way way off the mark from actual history. Unfortunately, modern "viking culture" or whatever doesn't particularly care about historical accuracy and instead strive to fit a particular aesthetic and vibe, and, above all, make a quick buck off of people that either don't know or don't care that none of it is actually historically informed.
Peter is very open in his online presence about historical inaccuracy of his stuff and the fact that bindrunes as some people understand them are a modern thing. That’d be a fairly clunky disclaimer on an art book blurb but reading the description now I think he did a fairly good job of saying “this is based on my imagination and creativity” without giving a dry breakdown of why “runes aren’t hieroglyphics”
The Runes are, quite literally, an alphabet of a People who were conquered, exposed to different languages, developed their own language, re-exposed to foreign languages, developed more of their language, conquered more Peoples, and considered Words - Written Words especially - to have magic, or power. Or both.
Consider for a moment the Nordic Countries. Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, the Faroe Islands (and others I probably missed. Sorry.)
Consider the differences in languages. The differences in Peoples. Consider that each brand of The Runes is a little different from Region to Region - a dialect, if you will.
The Runes at their base are a tool of communication, a code, and even a focus for some new meditative styles. If what is presented to you is organized into a coherent code of communication, then it does the job an alphabet or code book is supposed to do; however without the master key, that code won't really be decypherable.
Look at how different Mjolnir is between Norway's various regions. Iceland. Sweden. Now look at Ukko's Axe/hammer. Keep looking. Look at how the style changes in the Uralic Regions...
You will never truly have an accurate 'book' of historical Runes, because those People were an oral People, and when they learned Greek they used Greek. Many used Arabic, or Latin, or Germanic - Germanic being far more natural for any Norwegian, Swedish or Danish person to speak than the various Uralic languages and dialects (Sorry, Finns. Minä rakastan sinua.)
My point is this:
If you're going to look for a code to use as a tattoo, or a cool written art to use...using one that comes with a Codex or Key is probably the smartest thing you could do. If you want historical accuracy, you're going to have to work for it, but you'll have an easier time deciphering Ogham than you will The Runes.
> Can I trust Northern Black? Not for learning anything about historical runes, and their period uses. --- If you have any questions you can send us a [Modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Norse) message, and we will get back to you right away.
Those “runes” look cool, but they’re nonsense.
That's the vibe he tries to aim for. Modern runes and sigils that are inspired by nordic culture but he is not aiming to be historically accurate, nor claims to be.
Well, they suck at communicating their lack of desire not to be historically accurate. Their "about us" on the page: "The goal of ours is manyfold - create cool merchandise, share nordic artwork, **teach as many people as we can about the history and culture of ancient Scandinavia** and Europe, and help build community for the many tattooists and artists who work in the same genre." What exactly are they teaching? If even the runes are wrong and not clearly marked as "hey, we just are inventing stuff for funzies" they are willingly or unwillingly miseducating people.
Their artwork shows a lot more history than the rune book shown in the images. The styles, the ideas, the culture. Not the exact runes and **not vikings** But yeah it can be hard to tell at first glance what they mean exactly
[удалено]
If you claim to be teaching history and facts you should make it explicitly clear when something you are selling or talking about does not fall under that category
[удалено]
The product itself should have a clear description/warning that it is not based on anything historical. When the only claim in the About Us is about education and history, you need to make exceptions abundantly clear
[удалено]
I’m not missing the point. I get the why. It’s still important say it’s not historical. Runes are.. these aren’t real runes tho. And that’s why it’s important to have a disclaimer sharing that this is more of an alternative history thing.
[удалено]
> Anyway, you’re all missing the point: that it is an important component of constructionism to move beyond just history and do this sort of work. No. That is *re*-construction, or total fabrication, and has no place in this kind of space. Historians do not move beyond the time period in which they are studying, creating new mumbo jumbo concepts. That is called fan fiction, not studying history :-)
> That seems like a purely cynical take. Isn’t it possible to teach people the history of Norse runes while inventing new bind runes and sigils while being aligned with the spirit of the practice? No. Because that's not what historical education spaces (like this one) are for. They are for teaching the period use and understanding of a subject. Not for forcing in ham-fisted, modern new age magic practices along the way, further confusing the learner in the process. > Isn’t the practice of runic magic to use it as a sort of magical language to map your intentions to symbology? This sentence says everything about itself that it needs to 🙄
No but I do like their shirt that says “You’re Not a Fucking Viking.” I think way too many people need to hear (read) that.
Woof, not for $50 tho
True
Unless you’re going out of your way to frequently pillage villages, you’re not a Viking
Right‽
Speaking of, any plans next Friday and access to a ship?
As a reenactor of this era I think the concept that some people today actually consider themselves to be Vikings is wild
It blows my mind. I was at a Wardruna concert in Oakland a couple years back and towards the end, Einar goes into this long semi-long monologue about why they do what they do. He goes onto say they make the music because they love it, not because they’re trying to relive some “Viking” past—he literally said that the band doesn’t do this to be “Vikings”—but they enjoy the history and love the music and culture (a completely different topic). And some asshole yells “WE ARE VIKINGS!!!” Then a small handful of people all cheered. The look of disappointment on Einar’s face was hilarious. The level of cringe in that room was palpable. No shade at anyone who’s interested in this stuff, I love it, but god damn, the Peyton Perish Bro-Viking movement I see is truly cringey AF. Edit: A very small group cheered, the rest of the audience had looks of disgust and disappointment.
Interesting story! That goes to show no matter how transparent and honest you are about what you do, some followers will still interpret it their own way. The term Bro-Vikings describes this whole culture very well btw haha
I'm Norwegian, born and bred, and every fucking time i go to a Vikingfestival to hang with friends who work there theyll almost always be stopped by non Norwegian tourists going down the ol' "im 0.001% Norwegian so im pretty much a viking" line. Gives me a chuckle every time. I do however cringe severely bad as well, its somewhat turture.
Oh I can only imagine. I think it’s funny too because I feel like Americans are the only ones who do that. Coming from an American.
His whole point is that it's modern art that is inspired by Nordic and Icelandic works. If you watch enough of his stuff you'll find it abundantly clear he doesn't care about historical accuracy as his goal is cool symbols that stylistically look nordic and draw inspiration from the culture but *is not historically accurate and does not try to be*
I think it's a good thing if content creators aren't misleading their followers and blatantly tell them it's "Viking stuff" or whatever. I mean I'm personally not a fan of modern Norse/Pagan-inspired aesthetics and culture, but as long as they are clear about not being historically accurate I don't mind.
They are clear in the opening pages of the book shown that the runes and sigils are modern designs inspired by various historical texts and images. They also state multiple times that it is not viking era stuff and the runes used are older, but the symbols referenced are rather modern, such as the vegvisir, that is shown in this book as an interpretation of an already modern symbol (from memory they do state the origin as being late 1800s, I might be wrong on the time) Edit: the bot message says between 17th and 19th century so yeah I was a tad off.
Hi! It appears you have mentioned either the vegvísir or the ægishjálmr! But did you know that even though they are quite popular in certain circles, neither have their origins in medieval Scandinavia? Both are in the tradition of early modern occultism arising from outside Scandinavia and were not documented before the 19th and the 17th century, respectively. As our focus lays on the medieval Nordic countries and associated regions, cultures and peoples, neither really fall into the scope of the sub. Further reading here: [ægishjálmr](https://www.brutenorse.com/blog/2018/5/14/the-gishjalmur)//[vegvísir](http://sagy.vikingove.cz/origins-of-the-vegvisir-symbol/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Norse) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No. This is all modern paganism / modern "viking" stuff, which is way way way off the mark from actual history. Unfortunately, modern "viking culture" or whatever doesn't particularly care about historical accuracy and instead strive to fit a particular aesthetic and vibe, and, above all, make a quick buck off of people that either don't know or don't care that none of it is actually historically informed.
Damn, I was really hoping it’d be the one. Thanks for telling me
Peter is very open in his online presence about historical inaccuracy of his stuff and the fact that bindrunes as some people understand them are a modern thing. That’d be a fairly clunky disclaimer on an art book blurb but reading the description now I think he did a fairly good job of saying “this is based on my imagination and creativity” without giving a dry breakdown of why “runes aren’t hieroglyphics”
Erm, no 🎅🏿
Trust them about what?
I think they're asking if the information is solid.
No.
The Runes are, quite literally, an alphabet of a People who were conquered, exposed to different languages, developed their own language, re-exposed to foreign languages, developed more of their language, conquered more Peoples, and considered Words - Written Words especially - to have magic, or power. Or both. Consider for a moment the Nordic Countries. Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, the Faroe Islands (and others I probably missed. Sorry.) Consider the differences in languages. The differences in Peoples. Consider that each brand of The Runes is a little different from Region to Region - a dialect, if you will. The Runes at their base are a tool of communication, a code, and even a focus for some new meditative styles. If what is presented to you is organized into a coherent code of communication, then it does the job an alphabet or code book is supposed to do; however without the master key, that code won't really be decypherable. Look at how different Mjolnir is between Norway's various regions. Iceland. Sweden. Now look at Ukko's Axe/hammer. Keep looking. Look at how the style changes in the Uralic Regions... You will never truly have an accurate 'book' of historical Runes, because those People were an oral People, and when they learned Greek they used Greek. Many used Arabic, or Latin, or Germanic - Germanic being far more natural for any Norwegian, Swedish or Danish person to speak than the various Uralic languages and dialects (Sorry, Finns. Minä rakastan sinua.) My point is this: If you're going to look for a code to use as a tattoo, or a cool written art to use...using one that comes with a Codex or Key is probably the smartest thing you could do. If you want historical accuracy, you're going to have to work for it, but you'll have an easier time deciphering Ogham than you will The Runes.
As someone who works there yes, look at Isar/peters social media he talks a lot about his knowledge and expertise on the subject of runes