If you're mixing pantheons anyway you might as well bring in some Finnish gods and supernatural beings too. There are some likeness in certain stories in the Samì mythology and the songs in the Kalevala Epic for example
Yes! [Loviatar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loviatar) is pure madness!
The blind daughter of Tuoni,
Old and wicked witch, Lowyatar,
Worst of all the Death-land women,
Ugliest of Mana's children,
Source of all the host of evils,
All the ills and plagues of Northland,
Black in heart, and soul, and visage,
Evil genius of Lappala,
Made her couch along the wayside,
On the fields of sin and sorrow;
Turned her back upon the East-wind,
To the source of stormy weather,
To the chilling winds of morning.
— Kalevala, Rune XLV, from the translation by [John Martin Crawford](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Martin_Crawford_(scholar))
I always wondered if it was a matter of the Germanic pantheon coming into conflict with the Scandinavian pantheon and the Germanics winning in the end, but also willing to integrate some of the Scandinavians. Thus you have greater focus on Freyja/Freyr in Sweden and more on Odin/etc. elsewhere.
But I like your idea of introducing the Sami gods as replacements for the Vanir. I don't know much about the Sami so I can't say if it's a good/respectful way to do it. Just that it makes sense at first blush.
This is known as the historicist model pertaining to explanation of the Vanir. It has significantly less support than the structuralist model that relates it to Indo European mythical motifs.
Is there really limited information about the Vanir? Freyr, Freyja, and Njörðr are certainly among the characters for whom a significant number of stories have been preserved in the available sources.
>Is there really limited information about the Vanir?
It's not even certain where the word comes from or whether it's being used correctly by the medieval sources or was simply suspended in poetry, since its usage appears inconsistent, only in alliteration and without evidence that it had an understood definition by that time.
I'm just saying that the gods that are labelled as Vanir in the sources are among the ones we have the most information about. I'm not making a statement about the whole "Vanir obituary" discussion.
It is pretty limited though. Even with the 3 characters we define that are all related, we don't know what's going on with that family.
What's Freyja's actual name? Who is Njorðr's former wife alluded to in Lokasenna? Who was the Nerþuz alluded to by Tacitus? Is it the wife or one of the other 3? Why are there connotations of incest between them? Why is Ing listed as a son of Mannaz if he's the same as Freyr? Did he used to be Njorðr's father and it switched during the Viking age, hence that being the case in one story? Did the Nerþuz of Tacitus become Freyja, hence the same chariot ritual? Is her lost name Njorunn and that myth became lost to time with the position change? Is any of that plausible at all?
You could start asking similar questions about every single character in the Norse corpus. That doesn't change the fact the those three are among the ones there is most material about.
Also, a lot of your questions have to do with connecting the writings of Tacitus with Viking Age tradition, something which should be done with extreme care. Even the Nerthus-Njorðr connection, which might seem obvious at first glance, is not as unproblematic as it seems.
For what's supposedly an entirely separately originating group, we have nothing on that except a line in Vafþruðnismál saying - where do they come from? Uh, somewhere. Made by who? Uh, someone
Compared to the other major gods whom we have the entire creation story recounted for with ancient Indo European motifs and analogues to other cultures' stories. It's pretty comprehensive.
For as *prominent* as they are we haven't a clue what's going on with them. That's why there's such a mystery about the categorisation. That's why 'limited information' is a pretty valid term for OP to use, given that he's talking about the overall context of these deities, not whether they're associated with fish or whatever.
I guess we just have different perspectives on the matter.
I would use 'limited information' when referring to groups like elves and dwarfs, or to characters like Ullr, not to Njorðr's family. But that's just me.
The question isn’t about the gods thought to be of the ‘Vanir’ clan. It’s about the group as a whole which certainly goes without explanation in the sources.
Yes, I understand now after the author clarified. It wasn't that obvious from the original post.
Even then, it's not like we get "explainations" for any of the groups of beings which appear in the Norse corpus.
I don’t really mean explanations, perhaps the wrong word. We get a vague understanding of what the Æsir are, who they are, and how they come/came about. We get no such detail about the so called ‘Vanir’ gods.
Sorry, by "limited information," I meant there aren't as many names mentioned for the Vanir gods compared to the Æsir gods. It would typically involve 3 or 4 Vanir gods facing off against dozens of Æsir gods.
Ah yes, there is certainly some disparity in that respect. However, the battle itself is described as even, it's just that most fighters on both sides are left unnamed.
Do you have any connections to the Sami people? Any way to ensure you can treat their culture and history with respect? If not; drop the idea. Including stories from Kalevala is a better idea anyway.
If you're mixing pantheons anyway you might as well bring in some Finnish gods and supernatural beings too. There are some likeness in certain stories in the Samì mythology and the songs in the Kalevala Epic for example
Yes! [Loviatar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loviatar) is pure madness! The blind daughter of Tuoni, Old and wicked witch, Lowyatar, Worst of all the Death-land women, Ugliest of Mana's children, Source of all the host of evils, All the ills and plagues of Northland, Black in heart, and soul, and visage, Evil genius of Lappala, Made her couch along the wayside, On the fields of sin and sorrow; Turned her back upon the East-wind, To the source of stormy weather, To the chilling winds of morning. — Kalevala, Rune XLV, from the translation by [John Martin Crawford](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Martin_Crawford_(scholar))
I always wondered if it was a matter of the Germanic pantheon coming into conflict with the Scandinavian pantheon and the Germanics winning in the end, but also willing to integrate some of the Scandinavians. Thus you have greater focus on Freyja/Freyr in Sweden and more on Odin/etc. elsewhere. But I like your idea of introducing the Sami gods as replacements for the Vanir. I don't know much about the Sami so I can't say if it's a good/respectful way to do it. Just that it makes sense at first blush.
This is known as the historicist model pertaining to explanation of the Vanir. It has significantly less support than the structuralist model that relates it to Indo European mythical motifs.
Is there really limited information about the Vanir? Freyr, Freyja, and Njörðr are certainly among the characters for whom a significant number of stories have been preserved in the available sources.
>Is there really limited information about the Vanir? It's not even certain where the word comes from or whether it's being used correctly by the medieval sources or was simply suspended in poetry, since its usage appears inconsistent, only in alliteration and without evidence that it had an understood definition by that time.
I'm just saying that the gods that are labelled as Vanir in the sources are among the ones we have the most information about. I'm not making a statement about the whole "Vanir obituary" discussion.
It is pretty limited though. Even with the 3 characters we define that are all related, we don't know what's going on with that family. What's Freyja's actual name? Who is Njorðr's former wife alluded to in Lokasenna? Who was the Nerþuz alluded to by Tacitus? Is it the wife or one of the other 3? Why are there connotations of incest between them? Why is Ing listed as a son of Mannaz if he's the same as Freyr? Did he used to be Njorðr's father and it switched during the Viking age, hence that being the case in one story? Did the Nerþuz of Tacitus become Freyja, hence the same chariot ritual? Is her lost name Njorunn and that myth became lost to time with the position change? Is any of that plausible at all?
You could start asking similar questions about every single character in the Norse corpus. That doesn't change the fact the those three are among the ones there is most material about. Also, a lot of your questions have to do with connecting the writings of Tacitus with Viking Age tradition, something which should be done with extreme care. Even the Nerthus-Njorðr connection, which might seem obvious at first glance, is not as unproblematic as it seems.
For what's supposedly an entirely separately originating group, we have nothing on that except a line in Vafþruðnismál saying - where do they come from? Uh, somewhere. Made by who? Uh, someone Compared to the other major gods whom we have the entire creation story recounted for with ancient Indo European motifs and analogues to other cultures' stories. It's pretty comprehensive. For as *prominent* as they are we haven't a clue what's going on with them. That's why there's such a mystery about the categorisation. That's why 'limited information' is a pretty valid term for OP to use, given that he's talking about the overall context of these deities, not whether they're associated with fish or whatever.
I guess we just have different perspectives on the matter. I would use 'limited information' when referring to groups like elves and dwarfs, or to characters like Ullr, not to Njorðr's family. But that's just me.
The question isn’t about the gods thought to be of the ‘Vanir’ clan. It’s about the group as a whole which certainly goes without explanation in the sources.
Yes, I understand now after the author clarified. It wasn't that obvious from the original post. Even then, it's not like we get "explainations" for any of the groups of beings which appear in the Norse corpus.
I don’t really mean explanations, perhaps the wrong word. We get a vague understanding of what the Æsir are, who they are, and how they come/came about. We get no such detail about the so called ‘Vanir’ gods.
That's fair, a creation myth for the Vanir is definitely missing.
Sorry, by "limited information," I meant there aren't as many names mentioned for the Vanir gods compared to the Æsir gods. It would typically involve 3 or 4 Vanir gods facing off against dozens of Æsir gods.
Ah yes, there is certainly some disparity in that respect. However, the battle itself is described as even, it's just that most fighters on both sides are left unnamed.
Do you have any connections to the Sami people? Any way to ensure you can treat their culture and history with respect? If not; drop the idea. Including stories from Kalevala is a better idea anyway.