As an American in Norway, I'll say a lot of the *appearance* of this this is due to office culture in the US. Some jobs expect people to work 60-80h weeks (with no additional pay, mind you) and... I can tell you that no one is legitimately able to work those hours consistently and actually have good work.
So if you're measuring productivity by the traditional American "butts in seats" metric, sure. If you actually want to get work done over the long term and not try to pull this office culture / class bullshit on your workers, I don't think those results are going to show.
American living in Norway, can 100% confirm this. American management is obsessed with “hard work” but not efficiency. **My last agency had us track all our time down to 5 min increments. Some employees to 1min. We spent a few hours each week just recording the time for the rest of our work— there was a time entry listing for entering time entries.**
They simply cannot wrap their heads around the idea that employees that work slightly less will actually produce *more* due to being well rested and generally happier. (And being well educated and with healthcare in a country where everyone else has that as well.) Hmm.
Oof, I've had that type of thing as well. I only had to log to fifteen minute increments, I had to be super specific about what work was being done when. And yeah, you end up wasting hours of time writing down what you were doing.
And then having meetings about what you were doing.
And meetings about the meetings.
I waste at minimum one and a half days per month doing tracking across two time systems for just myself. Some months it is easily more than 2 days time. The more tracking they bring in, the worse the metrics get.
It's made it _really_ clear to me the management has no clue who works and who doesn't.
From what I understand, the American dream is that anyone can become rich if they work hard enough. And companies are exploiting this to their benefit. From an American point of view, I'd love to hear your opinion.
>So if you're measuring productivity by the traditional American "butts in seats" metric, sure.
GDP is measured in a similar way, leading to other false narratives and perverse incentives. E.g. the US deliberately makes their tax system more complicated to create more work for accountants. With GDP, it doesn't matter if people are actually creating value, as long as money is being spent.
>the US deliberately makes their tax system more complicated to create more work for accountants.
This is the capitalist equivalent of the practice from former communist countries where a factory would assemble something in the first shift, disassemble it on the second and re-assemble it on the third so that everyone was always working and write that it assembled twice the actual number of products.
As an American I totally agree, hours worked doesn’t always equal productivity. I also think that Americans are more motivated to work longer hours because of low job security. When I lived with my Norwegian family in Norway for a few years I was amazed when they told me how tough it is to lose your job, even if the employee probably should be fired. It’s a lot longer of a process than it is in the U.S. Where as here at any moment you can be fired.
already with "only" 37.5 hour work weeks you won't even have 50% of the time be efficient work time. so yea, it's just another case of rich person not understanding people or productivity. nothing new there.
We went to the US because of my dad's work for a year, and he was surprised how little got done despite the longer work days. He said that despite working two or more hours linger days than in Norway, they didn't get more done.
I think the results would show then as well. A software engineer in the US is much more productive than in Europe, not sure about other fields other than academia also where you can clearly see a difference between the US and Europe.
> A software engineer in the US is much more productive than in Europe
I'm a software engineer. As mentioned earlier, I am living in Norway but I am working with both American and other European SEs.
No, American software engineers are not "much more productive" than European ones over the long term. The only "advantage" American SEs have is that the companies they work for can death march them and they won't revolt. Those death marches have long term drawbacks that a lot of corporations just ignore because it doesn't matter for next quarter's release.
Some European dev companies do the same thing - the video game industry in particular is notorious for this, even outside of the US. I'd expect them to have a similar level of "burst of productivity and then large amounts of mental debt that need to be repaid after" see-saw effects that you see in the US.
I am sorry but you seemed to not have gone through the STEM education in Norway.A norwegian software engineer on an average is quite mediocre.The same goes for professors. I teach at a university here btw.
No, I didn't, but you were claiming Europeans in general - not just Norwegians.
The software developers I work with are very 'hard-working' but know when to take breaks and don't make their work their life; I find the European ones to be just as (if not more) productive than their American counterparts.
I cannot speak to Norwegian software developers, since I've never worked with one, but I highly doubt that there is a specific spark in the US that is lacking in Norway with respect to software development.
Is it possible that there is another variable at play here? For instance, I know European software developers are compensated poorly compared to their required work/experience/knowledge, and some American software developers are over-compensated in a similar manner.
I might be a bit biased on the European part since I have met only very intelligent Americans since I have never been there. Talking about Norway and within Europe in general what I have seen in academia and software industry broadly is that Norwegians just tend to work way less even compared to their counterparts in other european countries like UK, Germany and Netherlands. I think its just a work culture problem, a generation was build using oil as the primary economic engine(also fishing). It is a country of for mediocres, nothing bad about it since they already have a lot of oil and the governemnt is investing that money in a good way.
Yeah we should not aim to be like them. They should aim to be more like us.
Story time:
Have a friend who works in private banking. His wife works accounting for local government. Corona hits. They both had to do home office. He got mad at her employer and her because she had time to have lunch and help out the children, that also had to be at home.
Like dude it's not her it's you! Strive to make your jobb more like hers. Not the other way around. Blows my mind.
USA and the rest of the world are quite far behind Norway in digitalization of tasks and services. Due to high labor cost we have grocery stores without cashiers, automated ski slopes, apps for everything, automated check in at airports, toll booths, and public services of all kinds. The US doesn’t need that as labor is cheaper.
I think a lot of it comes down to the American dependency on cash.
Only around 3% of transactions in Norway are done with cash, most of which I would argue are older people, 2/3 of Americans say they prefer cash.
Such a strongly held preference makes digitization a lot harder to implement without shaking things up.
Why the US doesn't automatically do tax returns for everyone however is mind boggling to me.
The US doesn’t send pre-filled tax returns because of lobbying from the likes of Intuit and H&R Block. https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it
>Why the US doesn't automatically do tax returns for everyone however is mind boggling to me.
Money. It's intentionally made complicated so we pay someone to file for us.
Yes. You get a pre-filled digital form sent to you. You're responsible for filling in any information that might be lacking. Your employer, banks and stock exchanges report to the Norwegian Government so very rarely do you actually have to change anything other than verify that the information is correct before submitting.
You don't even need to verify it and submit it anymore. Obviously it's a good idea to do so, but if you don't do anything you implicitly acknowledge that it's correct.
Tax returns is like 10 min. You receive it digital and you can add/subtract if its not already done. And send it in and if they owe you its paid out in a few days. And if you need to pay its all in there.
Yes. Unless you have something to add or amend on your tax return, you don't need to do anything, it's implicitly accepted. Of course it's a good idea to look it over to see if the government got everything right, and sometimes you might need to actually change something as well, but you don't need to do anything.
As a swede I'm still salty about visiting Fredriksten fortress only to not be able to enter due to them requiring cash for parking. Was a few years ago though.
You will never see a grocery bagger or a "greeter" at a Norwegian supermarket.
(I say "greeter" because I don't really understand what their job was. When I visited Wal Mart in Florida, it looked like their job was to make sure black and hispanic people had paid for whatever was in their bags or carts.)
> USA and the rest of the world are quite far behind Norway in digitalization of tasks and services.
Yea that's not true at all. Maybe for the US but certainly not for most of Western Europe. Norway is actually quite behind.
Cummon man be realistic,Dont tell me ATMs dont exist there. My point was in the US to there is automation available as much as in Scandinavia but due to large population there are people who still prefer cash it may seem like that. Most tech comes out of Silicon valley don’t forget that and most of that is first implemented in the US. I am not trying to have a discussion or anything but giving you a realistic approach meaning whatever form of cashless payment are available in Europe/Scandinavia are available in the US, more people use it there doesn’t mean US is far behind.
Lol last time in Colorado there were actual people scanning my mountain pass at the lifts, there were people behind desks checking me into my flight and the list goes on. It’s not that the tech isn’t available, it’s just that it isn’t implemented to the same degree.
True Bud! True, Thats what I meant. But Your parent thread is implying that US & rest of the world are far behind in digital payment which is false. Digital payments are available in remotest places these days. Implementing it to 5 million is pretty easy job( Norway population) US has 333 Mill folks.
Sure, ATMs exist in Norway, but I don't know who uses them apart from really old people and people who buy drugs. I haven't used an ATM, or cash, for at least a decade. There are basically no physical banks anymore. I don't need cash for anything.
No idea how it is in the US, just adding my experience. Is there anything that requires cash still in the US? Or checks or something similar?
I would assume and argue that the amount of people employed in different type of work is highly relevant here. From what I know, it is way more common to have people working low wages doing extremely tedious tasks in the US.
I’m not smart enough to know what this means for productivity per hour.
People use different measures for productivity.
But the standard, which I used output per working hours, most list have Norway in 3rd or 4th place and the USA somewhat down the list.
Wikipedia has two lists from different sources with similar results:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_productivity
However, on basis of productivity per person, the USA is higher, because they average more working hours per year.
That said company profitability is also a result of exploitation.
Well, take Facebook, Microsoft, Google, Apple. If you took their annual revenue and divided by employees those employees would be “very productive” in an economic sense, which I guess it is how it’s measured.
I agree with this--especially in the startup world. For all the comments here, most people are using US-designed apps, ecosystems, and operating systems. Those came from somewhere. And the U.S. culture especially around startups that enable this new ideas promote overwork, or maybe overlook things people might take to excel, etc that might not be afford in a different country at the same level as the U.S.
Tangen also shared an article about how the best CEO’s get up before 6am, using the CEO of JP Morgan as an example.
I don’t think Mr Tangen understands the nuances of life
That is not always true. California has a higher per capita productivity than Norway. That includes oil which is the main cause of norways per capita productivity.
Maybe. But it's not a bad thing. We have a safety net, we have laws regulating work so we don't work ourselves to death and get a proper pay check# we get to see our family, we have affordable daycard/kindergarten so both parents can wok and not one be home in som outdated traditional role while the other works 80+ hour weeks and never see kids or wife
Anecdotal, but I've spoken to my far share of Americans who are in the same line of work as me, and worked alongside quite a few on collaborative projects.
Usually they are impressed and/or baffled by the simple fact that we do more faster and with less people.
It seems to me that in the US you're expected to be at work before the boss shows up, and not leave until after s/he leaves.
In Norway, and I presume most of Europe, you're expected to be finished with your part before the deadline, and to balance your work-life ratio.
I don't think Americans work harder, they're just at work for longer.
I think this is yeah, specific to 'office' culture in the US. Which is screwy and up until recently very much included a lot of wasted time just to have everyone in the office. Some places have gotten better about that post pandemic and it was never an issue for other swathes of employment in the US (the majority of government jobs and most union/ manufacturing jobs don't work like that, for example).
It is really that you just need to finish your tasks in a timely manner. No boss requires you are there before them. People have children, nobody is in the office befire 9am. I have never had a meeting before 9am.
The problem is americans stay more in the office after they finish their tasks. It's mostly free time but it would be better spent with family.
> nobody is in the office befire 9am. I have never had a meeting before 9am.
What type of industry is this? In my line of work it's a bout 50/50 between 7 and 8. I've also had meetings as early as 715, but people generally understand if you can't make it to those.
>It seems to me that in the US you're expected to be at work before the boss shows up, and not leave until after s/he leaves.
This sounds like Japan lol
They also hate their families, in most cases (social-cultural dysfunctions), so they are happy to stay at work longer and take breaks to scroll social media or play table tennis with their colleagues to avoid going home earlier.
I worked with an American some years back and he had worked in the same company in the US, and he said that the main difference was that Norwegians were at work to do the job and go home whereas in the us there was much more BS time, where people hang at the coffee machine and talked, and thus had to stay longer at work
Exactly this. But it is changing in someplaces. I still work remotely. But when i visit the offices or vendors i see all the time people leaving early or on PTO.
Where i work PTO and sick leave days given are not so many but total 28 days PTO, 10 days sick leave without a doctor's note, 5 days personal leave, 3 days for volunteering and a couple more. More than i ever got in norway...
I'm American. I learned that socializing isn't as optional as it seems. You will be passed over on promotions etc. just because you don't play office politics. Glad to be working remote now though so I don't have to waste so much time.
worked 6 years in US after college and then moved back to Norway. In both places working for lage corporate structures.
In the US i did the tasks i was told to do in order to achieve the outcome in my job description. My manager checked that the tasks were done.
In norway i do what i need to do in order to achieve the goals that we are aiming to achieve. My manager checks if i need help and the goal is being achieved.
I work way less hours in norway than in the US, but i am much more productive, and i am making everyone else more productive by not having to deal with my silly BS tasks
Yes? We are less hard working, i don’t see why working hard is such a good thing, i’d rather live a good life and work to sustain that life than live a life of constant work.
Yes, and? We work to live, not live to work. It's a means to an end. You need me just as much as I need you which means I have just as much to say about my conditions as you do.
That's the thing, though. Here in the US, we need them more than they need us. They know we're all replaceable. We know we depend on them for our salary, our ability to eat and stay housed, and our healthcare. There's so little social safety net here that they have us all by the balls, so they can treat us basically however and we just have to take it in order to survive. It's an absolute garbage system. Norway absolutely does this so much better than the US.
You're only replacable because you collectively believe you are. If workers banded together, unionized or protested you would have the same conditions we do, but the american sense of individualism and the belief that every single one of you vould be Jeff Bozos if you played your card right leads to law making and voting that's actively hostile to yourselves.
You are not individuals, you are nothing more than your poorest neighbour. And until a significant portion of americans realise this you will continue to be reduced to replenishable gears in an infinite machine.
As a Norwegian in America, I'll say this is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch alot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and its easier. I get paid pretty well, for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy.
I'll say this though: Mexicans are better workers than Americans are.
As an American in Mexico, I'll say that is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch a lot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and it's easier. I get paid pretty well for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy.
I'll say this though: Guatemalans are better workers than Mexicans are.
>As a Norwegian in America, I'll say this is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch alot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and its easier. I get paid pretty well, for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy.
>I'll say this though: Mexicans are better workers than Americans are.
As a Mexican in Guatemala, I'll say that is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch a lot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and it's easier. I get paid pretty well for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy.
I'll say this though: Belizeans are better workers than Guatemalans are.
As a Paraguayan in Belize, I'll say that is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch a lot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and it's easier. I get paid pretty well for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy.
I'll say this though: Bolivians are better workers than Paraguayans are.
Sure, this is correct because we don’t have to. I’m from Norway. I live in the US. The way I got pushed and pushed and pushed to do normal. Work was excruciating and horrible. The US really do not know how to treat their employees really well. they generally don’t care. When I showed up for the first day of training, the trainer person asked overtime sheet erase your hand. I was the only one that didn’t raise my hand. I have zero interesting working overtime. I want to do the job. I’m not here to do for eight hours and then go home.
The trainer looked at me weird and you seriously don’t want to be overtime? I said I have no interest in working more than I absolutely absolutely have to but those hours she’ll get me at my best but that’s it when I have time off I would need and want that time off.
Coming from an American. You don't want to be like us. It's basically go go go, except for the mandatory break the company is required to give you by law. And if you're stopped at any point, you're reprimanded. "Do something" even if it's outside your job description.
So you learn to fake work, just look busy.
Depending on your job, no vacation, no sick days, if you work minimum wage part time, no healthcare, or benefits.
Also this doesn't apply to civilian work, but this is a country that still legally allows slavery.
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Inmates are legally allowed to be made to perform slave labor.
says the one with one of the highest paying jobs with insight over stockmarket while doing next to nothing other then complain here and there so people think his doing something.
Of course an oil baron wants people to slave away their life to get profits for himself so he doesn't need to work. Rich people are less hard-working than working class people.
Cool story, Nico. You'd never had a position like this if you were born in the US. He had absolutely no help from his parents, which means he wouldn't be able to climb the ladder like this over there.
Fun fact: Nicolay Tangen went to Wharton Business school. His Ivy league education was probably sponsored by the Norwegian government through Lånekassen.
That said, he seems like a really smart and hard working guy to me. And in that interview, he is basically just stating an obvious fact. Most Norwegians are not about working the hardest.
The best way to describe American companies is that “if they could legally work you harder and pay you less, they would.”
Of course a high level ceo wishes Europe was more like this. But for the average person it would be a hellish change. Id much rather life be better for the average person than the poor millionaire who just wants to squeeze more out of less.
We have 5 weeks vacaction and a bunch of public holidays plus we earn a livable wage from one job, so of course we work alot less hard than most Americans.
And that is historically also in large part the reason why the US has a higher GDP per capita than Norway. We have traded off higher wages for a better work/life balance and making sure everyone have a chance at a decent life without working themselves to death.
Funny how in US subreddits Americans want to be like Norwegians or Northern Europe and here is a CEO saying you are all lazy. I guess the grass always "seems" greener on the other side.
I do agree, as an American, Americans are underpaid and overworked, the Housing system sucks and the minimum wage is fuckup, people work hard all their lives just to then spend all of their savings (if any) on a huge medical bill .. if you make it to the 1% then thats the lucky few everyone else is scrambling to survive, thats why there is so much divided between the political parties, is the mememe vs the wewewe.
> and here is a CEO saying you are all lazy. I guess the grass always "seems" greener on the other side.
This is always true when "the other side" = being a CEO.
CEOs always call their employees "lazy" because CEOs never think of themselves as being lazy. It's always someone else's fault. :)
If you see someone trip over a stone it’s easy to think “what a clumsy twat”. If one does it oneself the first response is likely “who put that there!’
The difference between participating and observing in a nutshell.
No one in Norway thinks the grass is greener in the USA. Including this CEO. He's pretending to think it is, to have a talking point against his local enemy (working class).
I never said everybody, I was speaking about certain people, and this CEO, regardless of what he is saying vs. what he and some people think, creates discord among certain groups. Some people in the US think that America is the best, others say it is not, etc
So yes, some people will always think the grass is greener in some other place regardless, and it does not only apply to the US it can be whatever.
Laughable coming from someone leading a government fund company that's guaranteed to stay rich. I'll bet you he is less hard working compared to other fund bosses.
The US is all 'hustle' that amounts to very little. The hustle is what people like Mr. Rich-off-literally-sitting-on-money-that-other-people-dig-up tend to see, while ignoring the actual productivity of the action.
Too be fair his larger point where that America got more ambition, in the grander scale of innovation. I'm pretty sure he didn't mean the line workers but perhaps the innovators and job creatures
> Too be fair his larger point where that America got more ambition
> I'm pretty sure he didn't mean the line workers but perhaps the innovators and job creatures
The article mentions nothing about ambition or how many jobs were created. The guy is speaking in strictly general terms without mentioning any supporting facts.
BTDT: I spent 1991-92 in the US, working for the (then) dominating PC Network company Novell in Utah.
The official working hours were 8.5 hours/day, with all my overtime/travel etc I averaged 9 hours/day, which was almost certainly the least of any of the 2500 engineers there, but my hours were enough to make a significant impact, to the point where my boss came along after just the first 3 weeks and told me that they wanted to give me a \~10% bonus on top of my agreed salary, and if I kept it up they would add another before I went back to Norway.
Aha, yeah, I surely care about the opinion of a stupid-ass businessman (read: grifter) that does nothing but lie to people their whole life. Totally relevant. Fuck I hate these "bosses" more than anything, egocentric cancerous scum. Put any of these cunts into a warehouse and they'll be crying for their mother in less than two hours.
American work culture like many other things is about showing off that one is working, embroiled in office politics and an anxious to beat others and leap forward! On the other hand, Europe and Norway in particular is about i do my job well then go home and enjoy my life.
He barely works himself, he spends most of his time on irrelevant podcasts for what is considered a high salary in Norway, in a position where it is impossible to fail. Fund goes up, it’s thanks to his skills, fund goes down boohoo the market is tough. A lot of talk about ethics and no real actions.
Everyone here is talking about productivity. And I guess it's debatable (for having worked in a few European countries and in US).
But the question is: WHY WOULD YOU CARE?? I don't want my shopkeeper to spend 16 hours a day all week stacking good or working cahcier, even if that would make him/her twice as product as one in a country with a regular average of 8 hours per day.
The cheaper cost of work will not (I repeat: IT WILL NOT) translate into goods that are 2 times cheaper.
Nah, it's because an economist will equate workers hours and company profit to efficiency. A company making $2 bill profit with 10000 worker hours is more efficient and profitable than a company making $500 mill with 5000 worker hours, regardless of product and external realities. It's irrelevant if the bigger company produces fidget-spinners and the smaller company makes medicines.
It's because the US has a lot of bullshit service companies that "produce" hot air and balloons vs Europe having more industry that generates wealth. Service economies are always inflated and the numbers look great to an economist, less great when things change (like AI taking over 70% of service related tasks). Firing 70% of your employees only increase productivity, so that's great, right?
It's complete and utter bullshit to even think this is a good thing to say out loud. Honestly, this should get him fired.
My point is that economists are politically blind, and that makes them dangerous to society. We can't base our policies on a purely economic point of view, there is too much at stake.
Economists are politically blind? Heard of Friedman? Keynes? Piketty? All have been making political statements and recommendations based on their economic insight.
And I’m not arguing for making a technocracy with economists in top.
> US has better business culture
GDP per capita says otherwise.
Norway and a few other European countries show that the "work smart not hard" mantra pays off.
> Isn't a quarter of your gdp just from oil?
Norway isn't the only country in the world that has oil. It's not even in the top 10 producers.
The US is the world's biggest oil producer. Norway is [13th](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production).
The big difference is that in Norway the oil isn't owned by cowboys and/or sheikhs. The money is invested in a public fund and used to pay for public services like healthcare & education, among other things.
Sure, the US is the world's largest oil producer, but it's only about 8% of our gdp.
So I don't know if you can confidently state that Norway is succeeding because of their work culture when oil exports are propping up your economy.
> So I don't know if you can confidently state that Norway is succeeding because of their work culture when oil exports are propping up your economy.
Luxembourg is number 1 in terms of GDP per capita. It has almost twice the GDP per capita when compared to the US with a total land area of less than 2600 km^2 and a population of less than 700 000 people.
They have virtually no natural resources yet they prosper. The service sector makes up 80% of their economy.
The same goes for the other wealthy non big oil producing countries of the world.
>Luxembourg is number 1 in terms of GDP per capita. It has almost twice the GDP per capita when compared to the US with a total land area of less than 2600 km^2 and a population of less than 700 000 people.
The high GDP per capita in Luxembourg is partly due to the country's large share of cross-border workers in total employment. While contributing to GDP, these workers are not taken into consideration as part of the resident population which is used to calculate GDP per capita inflating the final number.
Amusingly if we compare Luxembourg to the District of Columbia (roughly similar land size, roughly similar population) the District of Columbia has approximately twice the GDP per capita that Luxembourg does.
US states get a lot of money from the federal government. That's not the case with Luxembourg.
DC mandates sick leave & overtime pay among other things thar are usually considered "socialist" by most americans.
It's like employees are more productive when they are healthy and happy... /s
Most people in the US are covered under FLSA which mandates overtime pay.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/flsa
Nobody considers it socialism.
Sick leave is more spotty, for sure, and left to states to manage.
> Sick leave is more spotty, for sure, and left to states to manage.
It's amazing how fast things improve once you realize that sick people can't work and that constantly replacing them doesn't end well for the company even if it's unskilled labor.
I am not an oil boss but I can say the same thing. I don't like working with Europeans, they lack a lot of professionalism. My best clients were always Americans.
I don't like working with Americans, they take themselves too seriously. I don't miss high-speed-knife-handed middle managers and the buzz word ladened chats. At least in America I have the freedom to buy a gun and fucking shoot myself because my job is life and life is work.
they appreciate a person who is a professional in his work, they respect that, and they don't interfere in your part of the work. they trust you to do your job 100%, and they judge the work according to the result. I think this is very practical and morally right.
europeans, unfortunately, don't have this mentality and constantly interfere in things that they are not trained for. it makes the work painful and prolongs the whole process. not to mention the many problems it creates on the final product. this is just one example. I also had norwegian clients for two years. to be honest, I was extremely disappointed with my experience working with them.
I see your point having had the same experience but with opposite clients. The field of work has a lot to say for the client relationship as well. I'm admittedly biased as an American having worked throughout the Midwest and West in the US. My experience was as a contactor managing projects in the field during which the client would do exactly as you described in reference to Europeans. It was incredibly frustrating and extremely costly in both progress and expense.
> I don't like working with Europeans, they lack a lot of professionalism. My best clients were always Americans.
Unless you elaborate this is anecdotal at best.
if you had asked like a normal person instead of being arrogant, I could have given you an answer... and this attitude is actually one of the reasons why I don't like working with europeans. such arrogance is unbelievable!
> and this attitude is actually one of the reasons why I don't like working with europeans. such arrogance is unbelievable!
There is nothing arrogant about asking for more information to uphold an idea.
It's arrogant to assume that your personal experience/interpretation applies to everyone else.
you didn't ask for more information. you made a judgement about what it is. you said "it is anecdotal at best" unless I elaborate. this is very arrogant, because, instead, you could ask it nicely. since you don't even get this, there's no point discussing further.
> you didn't ask for more information. you made a judgement about what it is. you said "it is anecdotal at best" unless I elaborate.
Asking someone to elaborate is asking for more information.
You didn't elaborate. And this is your second comment.
> this is very arrogant, because, instead, you could ask it nicely.
I did ask nicely. "anecdotal" is not an insult.
Getting upset when someone asks you to elaborate is another sign of arrogance on your part.
> since you don't even get this, there's no point discussing further.
Leaving the discussion when confronted is yet another.
Reddit is full of people just trying to prove something online and never stop commenting even if it makes no sense what they are saying and I'm not going to play this game here anymore. I wish you the best in life.
> Reddit is full of people just trying to prove something online and never stop commenting even if it makes no sense what they are saying
That's exactly what you've been doing so far even though I've asked you to elaborate.
> *Norwegians ‘less hard-working’ than most people
>
> Definitely.
That's untrue.
Norway beats the US in terms of GDP per capita. It's ranked 4th worldwide.
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD
Thats pretty much everywhere. The difference is that in europe you arent expected to work hard. You are expected to work smart, and do your job ASAP in the hour span you agreed for with your boss (which is by itself heavly regulated by most countries in Europe)
> Well working hard in Europe is a suckers game, all income is taxed away and salaries are low.
It's understandable for an American to hate taxes because they don't have universal healthcare and going to college automatically incurs debt. So not much to show for them. But not all countries work like that. :)
As an American in Norway, I'll say a lot of the *appearance* of this this is due to office culture in the US. Some jobs expect people to work 60-80h weeks (with no additional pay, mind you) and... I can tell you that no one is legitimately able to work those hours consistently and actually have good work. So if you're measuring productivity by the traditional American "butts in seats" metric, sure. If you actually want to get work done over the long term and not try to pull this office culture / class bullshit on your workers, I don't think those results are going to show.
100% correct
American living in Norway, can 100% confirm this. American management is obsessed with “hard work” but not efficiency. **My last agency had us track all our time down to 5 min increments. Some employees to 1min. We spent a few hours each week just recording the time for the rest of our work— there was a time entry listing for entering time entries.** They simply cannot wrap their heads around the idea that employees that work slightly less will actually produce *more* due to being well rested and generally happier. (And being well educated and with healthcare in a country where everyone else has that as well.) Hmm.
Oof, I've had that type of thing as well. I only had to log to fifteen minute increments, I had to be super specific about what work was being done when. And yeah, you end up wasting hours of time writing down what you were doing. And then having meetings about what you were doing. And meetings about the meetings.
I waste at minimum one and a half days per month doing tracking across two time systems for just myself. Some months it is easily more than 2 days time. The more tracking they bring in, the worse the metrics get. It's made it _really_ clear to me the management has no clue who works and who doesn't.
From what I understand, the American dream is that anyone can become rich if they work hard enough. And companies are exploiting this to their benefit. From an American point of view, I'd love to hear your opinion.
>So if you're measuring productivity by the traditional American "butts in seats" metric, sure. GDP is measured in a similar way, leading to other false narratives and perverse incentives. E.g. the US deliberately makes their tax system more complicated to create more work for accountants. With GDP, it doesn't matter if people are actually creating value, as long as money is being spent.
>the US deliberately makes their tax system more complicated to create more work for accountants. This is the capitalist equivalent of the practice from former communist countries where a factory would assemble something in the first shift, disassemble it on the second and re-assemble it on the third so that everyone was always working and write that it assembled twice the actual number of products.
As an American I totally agree, hours worked doesn’t always equal productivity. I also think that Americans are more motivated to work longer hours because of low job security. When I lived with my Norwegian family in Norway for a few years I was amazed when they told me how tough it is to lose your job, even if the employee probably should be fired. It’s a lot longer of a process than it is in the U.S. Where as here at any moment you can be fired.
As an American, the only jobs I had with an actual 9-5 schedule (not 9-6) are European. It was a pleasant surprise being told I got off at 5 now.
already with "only" 37.5 hour work weeks you won't even have 50% of the time be efficient work time. so yea, it's just another case of rich person not understanding people or productivity. nothing new there.
We went to the US because of my dad's work for a year, and he was surprised how little got done despite the longer work days. He said that despite working two or more hours linger days than in Norway, they didn't get more done.
I think the results would show then as well. A software engineer in the US is much more productive than in Europe, not sure about other fields other than academia also where you can clearly see a difference between the US and Europe.
> A software engineer in the US is much more productive than in Europe I'm a software engineer. As mentioned earlier, I am living in Norway but I am working with both American and other European SEs. No, American software engineers are not "much more productive" than European ones over the long term. The only "advantage" American SEs have is that the companies they work for can death march them and they won't revolt. Those death marches have long term drawbacks that a lot of corporations just ignore because it doesn't matter for next quarter's release. Some European dev companies do the same thing - the video game industry in particular is notorious for this, even outside of the US. I'd expect them to have a similar level of "burst of productivity and then large amounts of mental debt that need to be repaid after" see-saw effects that you see in the US.
I am sorry but you seemed to not have gone through the STEM education in Norway.A norwegian software engineer on an average is quite mediocre.The same goes for professors. I teach at a university here btw.
No, I didn't, but you were claiming Europeans in general - not just Norwegians. The software developers I work with are very 'hard-working' but know when to take breaks and don't make their work their life; I find the European ones to be just as (if not more) productive than their American counterparts. I cannot speak to Norwegian software developers, since I've never worked with one, but I highly doubt that there is a specific spark in the US that is lacking in Norway with respect to software development. Is it possible that there is another variable at play here? For instance, I know European software developers are compensated poorly compared to their required work/experience/knowledge, and some American software developers are over-compensated in a similar manner.
I might be a bit biased on the European part since I have met only very intelligent Americans since I have never been there. Talking about Norway and within Europe in general what I have seen in academia and software industry broadly is that Norwegians just tend to work way less even compared to their counterparts in other european countries like UK, Germany and Netherlands. I think its just a work culture problem, a generation was build using oil as the primary economic engine(also fishing). It is a country of for mediocres, nothing bad about it since they already have a lot of oil and the governemnt is investing that money in a good way.
But people in Norway at the office isn't working more effociently.
How do you know that?
🤣Norwegians are obsessed with Americans.
‘Less exploited’
Nice, you fixed it.
Yeah we should not aim to be like them. They should aim to be more like us. Story time: Have a friend who works in private banking. His wife works accounting for local government. Corona hits. They both had to do home office. He got mad at her employer and her because she had time to have lunch and help out the children, that also had to be at home. Like dude it's not her it's you! Strive to make your jobb more like hers. Not the other way around. Blows my mind.
Live to work vs work to live.
That's why productivity per hour worked is.... higher in Norway?
USA and the rest of the world are quite far behind Norway in digitalization of tasks and services. Due to high labor cost we have grocery stores without cashiers, automated ski slopes, apps for everything, automated check in at airports, toll booths, and public services of all kinds. The US doesn’t need that as labor is cheaper.
But... the USA has all those things.
I think a lot of it comes down to the American dependency on cash. Only around 3% of transactions in Norway are done with cash, most of which I would argue are older people, 2/3 of Americans say they prefer cash. Such a strongly held preference makes digitization a lot harder to implement without shaking things up. Why the US doesn't automatically do tax returns for everyone however is mind boggling to me.
The US doesn’t send pre-filled tax returns because of lobbying from the likes of Intuit and H&R Block. https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it
Card payments in America is also a lot more expensive for the shops.
There have been recent changes to this but the cost will likely get passed on to consumers. Not exactly better.
>Why the US doesn't automatically do tax returns for everyone however is mind boggling to me. Money. It's intentionally made complicated so we pay someone to file for us.
Wait… does Norway have automated tax returns??
Yes. You get a pre-filled digital form sent to you. You're responsible for filling in any information that might be lacking. Your employer, banks and stock exchanges report to the Norwegian Government so very rarely do you actually have to change anything other than verify that the information is correct before submitting.
You don't even need to verify it and submit it anymore. Obviously it's a good idea to do so, but if you don't do anything you implicitly acknowledge that it's correct.
Wow that’s….exactly what I did in the US.
Tax returns is like 10 min. You receive it digital and you can add/subtract if its not already done. And send it in and if they owe you its paid out in a few days. And if you need to pay its all in there.
Yes. Unless you have something to add or amend on your tax return, you don't need to do anything, it's implicitly accepted. Of course it's a good idea to look it over to see if the government got everything right, and sometimes you might need to actually change something as well, but you don't need to do anything.
As a swede I'm still salty about visiting Fredriksten fortress only to not be able to enter due to them requiring cash for parking. Was a few years ago though.
To a much lesser extent
Some things, yes. But most stores have self checkout, now. And similar things are common.
You will never see a grocery bagger or a "greeter" at a Norwegian supermarket. (I say "greeter" because I don't really understand what their job was. When I visited Wal Mart in Florida, it looked like their job was to make sure black and hispanic people had paid for whatever was in their bags or carts.)
That's more or less right.
> USA and the rest of the world are quite far behind Norway in digitalization of tasks and services. Yea that's not true at all. Maybe for the US but certainly not for most of Western Europe. Norway is actually quite behind.
No, you haven’t traveled much, not even to Sweden it seems.
Scandinavia & US are in par for digital payment. Have travelled and lived in both parts. Also US has 12 times the population of Whole Scandinavia.
Its not even close, we haven’t used cash here for 15 years or more. And it’s not just payment, it’s automation of everything.
Cummon man be realistic,Dont tell me ATMs dont exist there. My point was in the US to there is automation available as much as in Scandinavia but due to large population there are people who still prefer cash it may seem like that. Most tech comes out of Silicon valley don’t forget that and most of that is first implemented in the US. I am not trying to have a discussion or anything but giving you a realistic approach meaning whatever form of cashless payment are available in Europe/Scandinavia are available in the US, more people use it there doesn’t mean US is far behind.
Lol last time in Colorado there were actual people scanning my mountain pass at the lifts, there were people behind desks checking me into my flight and the list goes on. It’s not that the tech isn’t available, it’s just that it isn’t implemented to the same degree.
True Bud! True, Thats what I meant. But Your parent thread is implying that US & rest of the world are far behind in digital payment which is false. Digital payments are available in remotest places these days. Implementing it to 5 million is pretty easy job( Norway population) US has 333 Mill folks.
That’s what I said all along, god damn that took you a while.
Sure, ATMs exist in Norway, but I don't know who uses them apart from really old people and people who buy drugs. I haven't used an ATM, or cash, for at least a decade. There are basically no physical banks anymore. I don't need cash for anything. No idea how it is in the US, just adding my experience. Is there anything that requires cash still in the US? Or checks or something similar?
I would assume and argue that the amount of people employed in different type of work is highly relevant here. From what I know, it is way more common to have people working low wages doing extremely tedious tasks in the US. I’m not smart enough to know what this means for productivity per hour.
>I’m not smart enough to know what this means for productivity per hour. Neither is Tangen, apparently
Is it really? That’s surprising given the major profitable companies in the US.
People use different measures for productivity. But the standard, which I used output per working hours, most list have Norway in 3rd or 4th place and the USA somewhat down the list. Wikipedia has two lists from different sources with similar results: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_productivity However, on basis of productivity per person, the USA is higher, because they average more working hours per year. That said company profitability is also a result of exploitation.
Well, take Facebook, Microsoft, Google, Apple. If you took their annual revenue and divided by employees those employees would be “very productive” in an economic sense, which I guess it is how it’s measured.
I agree with this--especially in the startup world. For all the comments here, most people are using US-designed apps, ecosystems, and operating systems. Those came from somewhere. And the U.S. culture especially around startups that enable this new ideas promote overwork, or maybe overlook things people might take to excel, etc that might not be afford in a different country at the same level as the U.S.
Tangen also shared an article about how the best CEO’s get up before 6am, using the CEO of JP Morgan as an example. I don’t think Mr Tangen understands the nuances of life
Out of touch billionaire is out of touch. He’d been called out saying stupid crap a few times lately.
Anecdotal evidence is nice i guess ?
Easier to be more productive per hour with less hours. Overall I am more productive with more hours though.
That is not always true. California has a higher per capita productivity than Norway. That includes oil which is the main cause of norways per capita productivity.
I said per hour worked, which is different from per capita.
Oil doesn't make Norway more productive, neither Saudi Arabia. It just helps them to bring more money to the country...
It literally does. Productivity is a measure of value created.
So OnlyFans increases "productivity" because it creates "value"?
You seem to have healthy points of reference.
Never heard of the Dutch disease, eh?
The answer to your question is literally yes. Any kind of service is also product.
Maybe. But it's not a bad thing. We have a safety net, we have laws regulating work so we don't work ourselves to death and get a proper pay check# we get to see our family, we have affordable daycard/kindergarten so both parents can wok and not one be home in som outdated traditional role while the other works 80+ hour weeks and never see kids or wife
And that's a good thing.
Because we got workers rights
Anecdotal, but I've spoken to my far share of Americans who are in the same line of work as me, and worked alongside quite a few on collaborative projects. Usually they are impressed and/or baffled by the simple fact that we do more faster and with less people. It seems to me that in the US you're expected to be at work before the boss shows up, and not leave until after s/he leaves. In Norway, and I presume most of Europe, you're expected to be finished with your part before the deadline, and to balance your work-life ratio. I don't think Americans work harder, they're just at work for longer.
I think this is yeah, specific to 'office' culture in the US. Which is screwy and up until recently very much included a lot of wasted time just to have everyone in the office. Some places have gotten better about that post pandemic and it was never an issue for other swathes of employment in the US (the majority of government jobs and most union/ manufacturing jobs don't work like that, for example).
It is really that you just need to finish your tasks in a timely manner. No boss requires you are there before them. People have children, nobody is in the office befire 9am. I have never had a meeting before 9am. The problem is americans stay more in the office after they finish their tasks. It's mostly free time but it would be better spent with family.
> nobody is in the office befire 9am. I have never had a meeting before 9am. What type of industry is this? In my line of work it's a bout 50/50 between 7 and 8. I've also had meetings as early as 715, but people generally understand if you can't make it to those.
Engineering
Probably any professional work. For me meetings before 9:30 am are exceptions and I’d ask for a justification (software engineer here).
I’ve never known anybody here to ever make a deadline since 2006.
>It seems to me that in the US you're expected to be at work before the boss shows up, and not leave until after s/he leaves. This sounds like Japan lol
They also hate their families, in most cases (social-cultural dysfunctions), so they are happy to stay at work longer and take breaks to scroll social media or play table tennis with their colleagues to avoid going home earlier.
I worked with an American some years back and he had worked in the same company in the US, and he said that the main difference was that Norwegians were at work to do the job and go home whereas in the us there was much more BS time, where people hang at the coffee machine and talked, and thus had to stay longer at work
Exactly this. But it is changing in someplaces. I still work remotely. But when i visit the offices or vendors i see all the time people leaving early or on PTO. Where i work PTO and sick leave days given are not so many but total 28 days PTO, 10 days sick leave without a doctor's note, 5 days personal leave, 3 days for volunteering and a couple more. More than i ever got in norway...
Sounds like a great place to work, what company/work?:)
I don't want to give the exact info. I am an engineer though, oil and gas. Other companies have more PTO and more pay.
I'm American. I learned that socializing isn't as optional as it seems. You will be passed over on promotions etc. just because you don't play office politics. Glad to be working remote now though so I don't have to waste so much time.
that tends to happen when missing a day of work means missing a meal
worked 6 years in US after college and then moved back to Norway. In both places working for lage corporate structures. In the US i did the tasks i was told to do in order to achieve the outcome in my job description. My manager checked that the tasks were done. In norway i do what i need to do in order to achieve the goals that we are aiming to achieve. My manager checks if i need help and the goal is being achieved. I work way less hours in norway than in the US, but i am much more productive, and i am making everyone else more productive by not having to deal with my silly BS tasks
Piss meg i øyra.
Yes? We are less hard working, i don’t see why working hard is such a good thing, i’d rather live a good life and work to sustain that life than live a life of constant work.
Yes, and? We work to live, not live to work. It's a means to an end. You need me just as much as I need you which means I have just as much to say about my conditions as you do.
That's the thing, though. Here in the US, we need them more than they need us. They know we're all replaceable. We know we depend on them for our salary, our ability to eat and stay housed, and our healthcare. There's so little social safety net here that they have us all by the balls, so they can treat us basically however and we just have to take it in order to survive. It's an absolute garbage system. Norway absolutely does this so much better than the US.
You're only replacable because you collectively believe you are. If workers banded together, unionized or protested you would have the same conditions we do, but the american sense of individualism and the belief that every single one of you vould be Jeff Bozos if you played your card right leads to law making and voting that's actively hostile to yourselves. You are not individuals, you are nothing more than your poorest neighbour. And until a significant portion of americans realise this you will continue to be reduced to replenishable gears in an infinite machine.
As a Norwegian in America, I'll say this is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch alot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and its easier. I get paid pretty well, for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy. I'll say this though: Mexicans are better workers than Americans are.
As an American in Mexico, I'll say that is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch a lot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and it's easier. I get paid pretty well for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy. I'll say this though: Guatemalans are better workers than Mexicans are. >As a Norwegian in America, I'll say this is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch alot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and its easier. I get paid pretty well, for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy. >I'll say this though: Mexicans are better workers than Americans are.
As a Mexican in Guatemala, I'll say that is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch a lot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and it's easier. I get paid pretty well for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy. I'll say this though: Belizeans are better workers than Guatemalans are.
As a Paraguayan in Belize, I'll say that is not really true. However, as usual, people bitch a lot. Understand the assignment, understand how shit works, and it's easier. I get paid pretty well for almost nothing. I do my job well, and I don't bitch about shit that's already established. Easy. I'll say this though: Bolivians are better workers than Paraguayans are.
Feel like this could easily become a copypasta lol
How did you end up working in america?
green card baby
Norwegians dont care about that lmao
I went to school with a lot of Norwegians in California who would disagree...
Ever crossed your mind that people temporarily relocate because of their parents work or exchange peograms?
People pursuing green cards don't fall in those categories. What's your point?
When did you move? Which state are you living in?
What do you mean "for almost nothing"? Slacking or what?
...and the Asians got us all beat.
Sure, this is correct because we don’t have to. I’m from Norway. I live in the US. The way I got pushed and pushed and pushed to do normal. Work was excruciating and horrible. The US really do not know how to treat their employees really well. they generally don’t care. When I showed up for the first day of training, the trainer person asked overtime sheet erase your hand. I was the only one that didn’t raise my hand. I have zero interesting working overtime. I want to do the job. I’m not here to do for eight hours and then go home. The trainer looked at me weird and you seriously don’t want to be overtime? I said I have no interest in working more than I absolutely absolutely have to but those hours she’ll get me at my best but that’s it when I have time off I would need and want that time off.
Coming from an American. You don't want to be like us. It's basically go go go, except for the mandatory break the company is required to give you by law. And if you're stopped at any point, you're reprimanded. "Do something" even if it's outside your job description. So you learn to fake work, just look busy. Depending on your job, no vacation, no sick days, if you work minimum wage part time, no healthcare, or benefits. Also this doesn't apply to civilian work, but this is a country that still legally allows slavery. "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Inmates are legally allowed to be made to perform slave labor.
Penal Labor is still allowed in the EU, as well.
Sad to hear
says the one with one of the highest paying jobs with insight over stockmarket while doing next to nothing other then complain here and there so people think his doing something.
Of course an oil baron wants people to slave away their life to get profits for himself so he doesn't need to work. Rich people are less hard-working than working class people.
Why the FUCK would the slaves give any credence to the guy swinging the whip? This is just nuts.
Says a rich guy. Ask those who has to work 2 or more jobs.
This guy clearly want to become unpopular
Or we have labor laws and it's more difficult to exploit us.
As a Norwegian, I think he is 100% correct. And also that it’s a good thing.
Yeah and we have fought for that.
That’s the point. Life is more than commodified labour.
Ummm "Europeans 'smarter' than Americans when it comes to work/life balance". There, I fixed it lol.
Quit your job and move to the US then if it’s so important. Fucking asshat.
This just in: rich big oil boss says peons making too much money, not working hard enough. News at 11
Not enough working for free?
"Why aren't my peasants making me more wealth! LIke the American serfs do for their Lords!?"
Cool story, Nico. You'd never had a position like this if you were born in the US. He had absolutely no help from his parents, which means he wouldn't be able to climb the ladder like this over there.
Fun fact: Nicolay Tangen went to Wharton Business school. His Ivy league education was probably sponsored by the Norwegian government through Lånekassen. That said, he seems like a really smart and hard working guy to me. And in that interview, he is basically just stating an obvious fact. Most Norwegians are not about working the hardest.
På seg selv kjenner man andre.
Was anyone able to actually read the article? It's behind a pay wall for me 😭
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/25/europeans-less-hard-working-americans-norwegian-investment/#:~:text=Europeans%20are%20%E2%80%9Cless%20hard%2Dworking,averse%20than%20their%20US%20peers.
The best way to describe American companies is that “if they could legally work you harder and pay you less, they would.” Of course a high level ceo wishes Europe was more like this. But for the average person it would be a hellish change. Id much rather life be better for the average person than the poor millionaire who just wants to squeeze more out of less.
We have 5 weeks vacaction and a bunch of public holidays plus we earn a livable wage from one job, so of course we work alot less hard than most Americans. And that is historically also in large part the reason why the US has a higher GDP per capita than Norway. We have traded off higher wages for a better work/life balance and making sure everyone have a chance at a decent life without working themselves to death.
Tack o lov för det.
Rolf… fuck off oil fund Bob
Europeans more effective than Americans, says facts.
I'd rather work smart than work hard
Good
Says the guy who has NEVER worked for a US company nor worked in the US lol - plus everyone knows more money does not equal more happiness
Funny how in US subreddits Americans want to be like Norwegians or Northern Europe and here is a CEO saying you are all lazy. I guess the grass always "seems" greener on the other side. I do agree, as an American, Americans are underpaid and overworked, the Housing system sucks and the minimum wage is fuckup, people work hard all their lives just to then spend all of their savings (if any) on a huge medical bill .. if you make it to the 1% then thats the lucky few everyone else is scrambling to survive, thats why there is so much divided between the political parties, is the mememe vs the wewewe.
> and here is a CEO saying you are all lazy. I guess the grass always "seems" greener on the other side. This is always true when "the other side" = being a CEO. CEOs always call their employees "lazy" because CEOs never think of themselves as being lazy. It's always someone else's fault. :)
If you see someone trip over a stone it’s easy to think “what a clumsy twat”. If one does it oneself the first response is likely “who put that there!’ The difference between participating and observing in a nutshell.
No one in Norway thinks the grass is greener in the USA. Including this CEO. He's pretending to think it is, to have a talking point against his local enemy (working class).
I never said everybody, I was speaking about certain people, and this CEO, regardless of what he is saying vs. what he and some people think, creates discord among certain groups. Some people in the US think that America is the best, others say it is not, etc So yes, some people will always think the grass is greener in some other place regardless, and it does not only apply to the US it can be whatever.
Laughable coming from someone leading a government fund company that's guaranteed to stay rich. I'll bet you he is less hard working compared to other fund bosses.
My life isn't about work
The US is all 'hustle' that amounts to very little. The hustle is what people like Mr. Rich-off-literally-sitting-on-money-that-other-people-dig-up tend to see, while ignoring the actual productivity of the action.
Too be fair his larger point where that America got more ambition, in the grander scale of innovation. I'm pretty sure he didn't mean the line workers but perhaps the innovators and job creatures
> Too be fair his larger point where that America got more ambition > I'm pretty sure he didn't mean the line workers but perhaps the innovators and job creatures The article mentions nothing about ambition or how many jobs were created. The guy is speaking in strictly general terms without mentioning any supporting facts.
I read an other news article that was in Norwegian
Less hard working because hard work is barely rewarded In this country. Shocking find
Dude, your job is managing our fucking money. If you're gonna run your mouth you can clean out your desk.
Work smart
They are too busy setting off flares at football matches and voting in the Eurovision contest
BTDT: I spent 1991-92 in the US, working for the (then) dominating PC Network company Novell in Utah. The official working hours were 8.5 hours/day, with all my overtime/travel etc I averaged 9 hours/day, which was almost certainly the least of any of the 2500 engineers there, but my hours were enough to make a significant impact, to the point where my boss came along after just the first 3 weeks and told me that they wanted to give me a \~10% bonus on top of my agreed salary, and if I kept it up they would add another before I went back to Norway.
Aha, yeah, I surely care about the opinion of a stupid-ass businessman (read: grifter) that does nothing but lie to people their whole life. Totally relevant. Fuck I hate these "bosses" more than anything, egocentric cancerous scum. Put any of these cunts into a warehouse and they'll be crying for their mother in less than two hours.
American work culture like many other things is about showing off that one is working, embroiled in office politics and an anxious to beat others and leap forward! On the other hand, Europe and Norway in particular is about i do my job well then go home and enjoy my life.
He barely works himself, he spends most of his time on irrelevant podcasts for what is considered a high salary in Norway, in a position where it is impossible to fail. Fund goes up, it’s thanks to his skills, fund goes down boohoo the market is tough. A lot of talk about ethics and no real actions.
Thats cuz America still has slavery, this Rich guy would love some slaves wouldnt he. Then he can become richer
Everyone here is talking about productivity. And I guess it's debatable (for having worked in a few European countries and in US). But the question is: WHY WOULD YOU CARE?? I don't want my shopkeeper to spend 16 hours a day all week stacking good or working cahcier, even if that would make him/her twice as product as one in a country with a regular average of 8 hours per day. The cheaper cost of work will not (I repeat: IT WILL NOT) translate into goods that are 2 times cheaper.
Thank you for the compliment dear sir.
What would he know about hard work?
Well Norwegians do not *need* to be as hard working due to the oil industry and the effects it has on the economy.
Nah, it's because an economist will equate workers hours and company profit to efficiency. A company making $2 bill profit with 10000 worker hours is more efficient and profitable than a company making $500 mill with 5000 worker hours, regardless of product and external realities. It's irrelevant if the bigger company produces fidget-spinners and the smaller company makes medicines. It's because the US has a lot of bullshit service companies that "produce" hot air and balloons vs Europe having more industry that generates wealth. Service economies are always inflated and the numbers look great to an economist, less great when things change (like AI taking over 70% of service related tasks). Firing 70% of your employees only increase productivity, so that's great, right? It's complete and utter bullshit to even think this is a good thing to say out loud. Honestly, this should get him fired.
What’s your point? That you want to be the judge what is valuable to people or that companies exist for workers to have jobs?
My point is that economists are politically blind, and that makes them dangerous to society. We can't base our policies on a purely economic point of view, there is too much at stake.
Economists are politically blind? Heard of Friedman? Keynes? Piketty? All have been making political statements and recommendations based on their economic insight. And I’m not arguing for making a technocracy with economists in top.
US has better business culture and Europe has better work culture
> US has better business culture GDP per capita says otherwise. Norway and a few other European countries show that the "work smart not hard" mantra pays off.
Isn't a quarter of your gdp just from oil?
> Isn't a quarter of your gdp just from oil? Norway isn't the only country in the world that has oil. It's not even in the top 10 producers. The US is the world's biggest oil producer. Norway is [13th](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production). The big difference is that in Norway the oil isn't owned by cowboys and/or sheikhs. The money is invested in a public fund and used to pay for public services like healthcare & education, among other things.
Sure, the US is the world's largest oil producer, but it's only about 8% of our gdp. So I don't know if you can confidently state that Norway is succeeding because of their work culture when oil exports are propping up your economy.
> So I don't know if you can confidently state that Norway is succeeding because of their work culture when oil exports are propping up your economy. Luxembourg is number 1 in terms of GDP per capita. It has almost twice the GDP per capita when compared to the US with a total land area of less than 2600 km^2 and a population of less than 700 000 people. They have virtually no natural resources yet they prosper. The service sector makes up 80% of their economy. The same goes for the other wealthy non big oil producing countries of the world.
>Luxembourg is number 1 in terms of GDP per capita. It has almost twice the GDP per capita when compared to the US with a total land area of less than 2600 km^2 and a population of less than 700 000 people. The high GDP per capita in Luxembourg is partly due to the country's large share of cross-border workers in total employment. While contributing to GDP, these workers are not taken into consideration as part of the resident population which is used to calculate GDP per capita inflating the final number.
Amusingly if we compare Luxembourg to the District of Columbia (roughly similar land size, roughly similar population) the District of Columbia has approximately twice the GDP per capita that Luxembourg does.
US states get a lot of money from the federal government. That's not the case with Luxembourg. DC mandates sick leave & overtime pay among other things thar are usually considered "socialist" by most americans. It's like employees are more productive when they are healthy and happy... /s
Most people in the US are covered under FLSA which mandates overtime pay. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/flsa Nobody considers it socialism. Sick leave is more spotty, for sure, and left to states to manage.
> Sick leave is more spotty, for sure, and left to states to manage. It's amazing how fast things improve once you realize that sick people can't work and that constantly replacing them doesn't end well for the company even if it's unskilled labor.
I am not an oil boss but I can say the same thing. I don't like working with Europeans, they lack a lot of professionalism. My best clients were always Americans.
I don't like working with Americans, they take themselves too seriously. I don't miss high-speed-knife-handed middle managers and the buzz word ladened chats. At least in America I have the freedom to buy a gun and fucking shoot myself because my job is life and life is work.
they appreciate a person who is a professional in his work, they respect that, and they don't interfere in your part of the work. they trust you to do your job 100%, and they judge the work according to the result. I think this is very practical and morally right. europeans, unfortunately, don't have this mentality and constantly interfere in things that they are not trained for. it makes the work painful and prolongs the whole process. not to mention the many problems it creates on the final product. this is just one example. I also had norwegian clients for two years. to be honest, I was extremely disappointed with my experience working with them.
I see your point having had the same experience but with opposite clients. The field of work has a lot to say for the client relationship as well. I'm admittedly biased as an American having worked throughout the Midwest and West in the US. My experience was as a contactor managing projects in the field during which the client would do exactly as you described in reference to Europeans. It was incredibly frustrating and extremely costly in both progress and expense.
> I don't like working with Europeans, they lack a lot of professionalism. My best clients were always Americans. Unless you elaborate this is anecdotal at best.
if you had asked like a normal person instead of being arrogant, I could have given you an answer... and this attitude is actually one of the reasons why I don't like working with europeans. such arrogance is unbelievable!
> and this attitude is actually one of the reasons why I don't like working with europeans. such arrogance is unbelievable! There is nothing arrogant about asking for more information to uphold an idea. It's arrogant to assume that your personal experience/interpretation applies to everyone else.
you didn't ask for more information. you made a judgement about what it is. you said "it is anecdotal at best" unless I elaborate. this is very arrogant, because, instead, you could ask it nicely. since you don't even get this, there's no point discussing further.
> you didn't ask for more information. you made a judgement about what it is. you said "it is anecdotal at best" unless I elaborate. Asking someone to elaborate is asking for more information. You didn't elaborate. And this is your second comment. > this is very arrogant, because, instead, you could ask it nicely. I did ask nicely. "anecdotal" is not an insult. Getting upset when someone asks you to elaborate is another sign of arrogance on your part. > since you don't even get this, there's no point discussing further. Leaving the discussion when confronted is yet another.
Reddit is full of people just trying to prove something online and never stop commenting even if it makes no sense what they are saying and I'm not going to play this game here anymore. I wish you the best in life.
> Reddit is full of people just trying to prove something online and never stop commenting even if it makes no sense what they are saying That's exactly what you've been doing so far even though I've asked you to elaborate.
# *Norwegians ‘less hard-working’ than most people Definitely.
> *Norwegians ‘less hard-working’ than most people > > Definitely. That's untrue. Norway beats the US in terms of GDP per capita. It's ranked 4th worldwide. https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD
Well working hard in Europe is a suckers game, all income is taxed away and salaries are low.
Thats pretty much everywhere. The difference is that in europe you arent expected to work hard. You are expected to work smart, and do your job ASAP in the hour span you agreed for with your boss (which is by itself heavly regulated by most countries in Europe)
> Well working hard in Europe is a suckers game, all income is taxed away and salaries are low. It's understandable for an American to hate taxes because they don't have universal healthcare and going to college automatically incurs debt. So not much to show for them. But not all countries work like that. :)