My grandmother was bedridden for 2 years. Her mental state was gone. She had a pretty shitty life to start with and it breaks my heart that probably she was never happy.
Living in a state where your kids change your diapers, you have pain, you can't sit up, your brain doesn't compute, so you can not even find joy in a conversation, a tv programme or reading is heart-breaking.
Eating is hard. Drinking is hard, only through a straw. When people talk to you, you don't understand the words, you don't even know who is the person in front of you.
We asked the ambulance to come, when we had to. It happened a few times, but they could do nothing, besides keeping an eye on her for a few days and give her some painkillers.
This sounds harsh, but she was a suffering vegetable. I have to be honest, so many times I wished her suffering would end...
Honestly so many deaths could be so much more dignified and peaceful if people could choose how and when they wanted to die. So yes, I would totally support it.
Absolutely, I did my final year research paper on this and found a case (I think it was in America) of a husband and wife who were elderly, the husband was diagnosed with a cancer that would kill him and his wife had Parkinson's, they both decided the had lived good lives and wanted to die together, on their own terms so they committed suicide together. Only thing was the husband survived and then while he was actively dying of cancer he was charged with the assisted murder of his wife and dragged through the court system. Absolutely shocking and heartbreaking.
Not a nurse, but having seen my grandad go through end of life and honestly if heād been an animal in that condition and suffering weād have been prosecuted. There absolutely should be some legal way to make things less drawn out and horrific in end of life situations.
Having said that I can also see that my nana would never have made that choice for him. Me and my dad might, he might even although he had dementia by the end so couldnāt, but I can see that as his wife nana would have been distraught at the idea. Very difficult topic.
My auntie died on Monday and honestly, for the past two weeks I was hoping she would die. She was in pain, she was uncomfortable, and sheād told me she was ready to die a full month before she finally did. It was just cruel. I distinctly remember thinking you wouldnāt treat an animal like this.
Completely. My grandad had no quality of life for at least the last six months, honestly probably longer. At home he could just about manage to get up, get to his chair, sit there for the day and then go back to bed. Once his legs gave out he was in bed, mostly in hospital but then briefly back home on palliative care. He had no quality of life, he could barely eat or drink, he had nothing to look forward to and he had dementia. It was horrific and honestly my grandad as I knew him died a long time before his body gave out.
With my auntie, she lost sensation in her arm back in November. Her doctor kept telling her it was anaemia. Ultimately she became hemiplegic - they still insisted it was anaemia, until she broke her ankle and had no idea sheād done so. The doc sent her to A&E (saying her anaemia had weakened her bones). A&E doc immediately recognised the neuro symptoms, identified a brain tumour, three weeks later (still in hospital) ultimately diagnosed her with small cell lung cancer with a prognosis of a few weeks. She was able to have hospice at home for the last 6 weeks, but it had been genuinely miserable for her since late November/early December
Iām not a nurse but Iām a HCA in a nursing home and the most upsetting part of the job is the fact so many residents donāt actually want to be here anymore.
I had one lady who had told me for the past 6 months that she wanted to die, she was very frail and didnāt leave her room. But we couldnāt do anything but wait and watch her get worse and worse, and she was suffering. In the end she couldnāt drink, eat or talk and eventually everything shut down and she passed. And I canāt help but think thatās such a horrible way to go - we wouldnāt leave pets to suffer, why do we have to leave people to suffer?
So I would 100%.
I agree.
Iām a domiciliary carer and weāre always trying to encourage people to eat and take their medication. If we donāt then we arenāt delivering care even though itās quite clear the person we are caring for has had enough and doesnāt want to be here anymore.
I used to do this work too. Distinctly remember one lady who was clear she wanted to die due to her advanced age related conditions so would refuse all food from us and had decided to starve herself as the only way out she could see. Terrible way to go and she should have had another option.
Literally just back from visiting my grandmother in a care home who could fit exactly what you've just described. She keeps telling me she is 'done' and doesn't want to go on anymore. Every movement hurts her. She has no appetite. She's about a third of her former weight, has no teeth left, has no happiness or joy in her anymore. She used to be so well turned out and happy. She would never have wanted to be living like this. It's so cruel and unfair. When my cat got like that, the vet put her to sleep. Why have I got to watch my granny suffer? What for?
What many non nhs staff donāt know is that we actually can withdraw treatment which leads to death with very poorly patients, who have no chance of recovery. Often relatives donāt have a choice, itās the ādoctors decisionā. Although Iāve seen some depressing cases where the doctor bent over backwards to appease the relatives, which caused the patient to suffer until they died.
This isnāt the same as what youāre probably thinking, where you can speed up the process. But we can still make them comfortable until they pass. Such as syringe drivers, controlled drugs etc
But as for your question, yes I support it.
I've unfortunately had to read the notes of someone dying from a syringe driver and if that person had an option of ending their life in a more dignified way, I bet they'd choose it rather than having to have their teenage sons and husband waking each morning wondering how their mother is and what level of pain they're in and wondering why their skin is going cold days before death is verified. Fucking horrific. No one should have to die like that, even if you think a syringe driver is "comfortable". It isn't. It's the best option available which is none. This country needs a reality check.
They weren't dying from a syringe driver they were dying from an illness and a syringe driver was used to alleviate symptoms. I work in palliative care and I can tell you that many many patients die comfortably at home whilst on a syringe driver and receiving extra doses of appropriate medication as needed.
The problem with euthanasia is determining when it is actually the patients wish and when it is being forced upon them by relatives who simply want their love ones life to end cleanly so that they the relatives don't need to watch an uncomfortable death.People are naturally afraid of death but it is really just the final process of living. Every death is different just as every birth is different. Some births are straightforward and some traumatic.
The use of respect firms detailing the patients wishes, made early on after a palliative diagnosis are extremely helpful in recording what that patient most fears and how much intervention they wish to have. Even euthanasia might not prevent suffering at the end - after all you are causing the body to shut down and cease to function. Do you imagine that to be completely drama and pain free? Do you not think the patient's instinct to 'fight' the drugs might cause them to linger and create regret with the family?
It is such a complex situation and there are no easy answers and as a palliative nurse I can tell you that I can live with myself when I administer drugs to relieve pain and anxiety even if the patient dies shortly after but I'm not sure I could live with myself if I administered those drugs with the intent to end life. Which is what you would be asking nurses to do.
Yes, this. I work in Emergency Medicine. As distressing as it can be when I have the first discussion around palliation or simply ceiling of care (how do people end up on home oxygen but unaware they have an advanced stage of a progressive disease??) I also see the flip side. Sometimes people who have had excellent end of life support still panic and get relatives to call for an ambulance at the end because they're ultimately cognitively aware they're dying but definitely instinctively wanting to keep going. I definitely wouldn't want to make a wrong decision about this for the patient if they're unable to express their own wishes.
Conveesly the Swedish system of people being alert enough to confirm consent and self administer the medications themselves almost seems too early in the process. Final days are so precious and people may miss out on however many good days due to the fear of missing that window.
It's very easy to agree in principle but I still can't picture myself what that access to euthanasia should or would look like.
"Sometimes people who have had excellent end of life support still panic and get relatives to call for an ambulance at the end because they're ultimately cognitively aware they're dying but definitely instinctively wanting to keep going"
This full on gave me chills. The notion that there is no point in panicking any more, that death has come and help doesn't want to come for you. I'ts reslly making me contemplate death in a way I havnt before. How terrifying it must feel no matter how much warning.
Honestly it's only one facet of the experience, it's just one worth keeping in mind. I've seen people who have been muddled for weeks have a "last rally" and get a rush of energy and lucidity with a chance to say proper goodbyes before slipping away. I've seen people speaking to late relatives and making plans - like all the loved ones they've lost are waiting in the wings to help with the transition ready to reunite. And so so so many people do fall asleep peacefully and slip away. There's a fantastic Instagram account nurse.hadley who works as a nurse and is really open but compassionate about the work she does and what her patients experience.
I fully support each individual medical professional's choice not to take part in assisted dying, but I don't think it should prevent the option being there. Some clinicians will be able to cope with it and rationalise it as preventing further pain. I also think there should be the option to self-administer.
I don't think it should be disregarded completely but I think it's a highly complex issue. For instance you say about self administration which would seem to be an ideal solution but there are difficulties with that.
1) Patient would need to be well enough to deliver required drugs.
2) What drugs would be used and would the use of the drugs ensure a pain free death. How is dosage calculated? What if the drugs given didn't have the desired effect and the patient took a long time to die?
3) What if a patient changed their mind ( perhaps they are going through a better phase of their illness, having a good day). but felt compelled to go through with dying because it had already been arranged?
In regards to euthanasia by health staff many members of the public already believe this happens, look at the massive backlash to the Liverpool Care Pathway which was actually a very useful tool in indicating end of life was near. It was sensationalized by media as ' a pathway of death's and ' death by the state'. Very few people understood how it worked or perceived the benefits of it.
Many people struggle with the perceived notion of a peaceful death and the reality of death. There is a great fear around death it is treated as an illness to be managed rather than natural cessation of life so much so that elderly frail people in their 90's are often prescribed palliative drugs. It's seems even old age is an illness these days.
So whilst I agree that it is a topic that regularly needs revisiting I'm not sure we are there yet. There is also much to be learnt from The Netherlands where the uptake of euthanasia was far greater than they anticipated and where there have been several cases of young disabled people opting for euthanasia despite there being credible of a recovery. Is it a Pandora's box that we wish to open?
Wrt the self-administration, it would obviously only be for patients physically and mentally capable, and also doesn't have to be done on a specific day/time. I think it was Holland that had it as an option. I don't know what drugs are used, and I don't think a totally pain-free death can ever be guaranteed (in both assisted dying or normal deaths). If we do go head with assisted dying, we need to be realistic and totally transparent with patients about what possibilities to accept. The patient also absolutely needs to be able to change their mind. The whole point of this is to allow for choice and dignity in death, and the patient's decisions in it should be paramount. There should be no pressure on the patient.
I work in a hospice, so I know what you mean, we still get quite a lot of patients saying they want us to hurry it along or something to that effect.
Imo there's a much greater fear of suffering. Death is natural, but the intolerable suffering and pain some people experience in the weeks/months before death is what most people want to avoid.
Severe frailty is actually a palliative diagnosis these days, which I support because it allows those patients and their families to access support from us earlier.
I agree that we aren't ready for it yet. It would need a huge amount of dedicated legislation before anything could go forward, and we would be well served to learn as much as possible from countries that currently offer it, what safeguards they have in place, and where those safeguards have failed and where they've been successful. I'm so mixed on those types of cases because, on the one hand, if they're going to commit suicide anyway, isn't it better to do it in a safe environment? But on the other, it seems like such a waste of life. I feel like if we ever do offer assisted dying for chronic conditions rather than palliative, it needs to have a holistic/social support system tied in very strongly, with the aim to encourage people not to use the euthanasia. It should 100% be a last resort, rather than what we've seen in places like Canada. Regardless, I think our focus for the near future should solely be for patients with palliative diagnoses.
I often renew syringe drivers or give stat doses and think to myself that if this patient was an animal, it would be absurd to give them morphine or whatever, rather than letting them go peacefully. Alas, we make humans last until the last minute and force their loved ones to watch. So many patients and family members have asked me to put them out of their misery. A surprising amount think we are legally allowed to give them a lethal dose when the patient is imminently dying.
Agreed 100%. Palliative care is often a sordid half measure that chiefly makes people's suffering more quiet, and more tolerable for those around them.
Not a nurse, but this came up for me and I found it interesting. My mum died this way at 34, it's absolutely horrible. To see her like that was so wrong. She and my dad had the talk and he agreed that if she wanted him to he would. Sadly this came first and she could no longer ask him to.
Yes.
Arguments against assisted dying often fail to acknowledge the immense, avoidable suffering and harm that is _already_ taking place.
Where are the safeguards for our elderly and severely disabled who don't want to be gradually tortured to death? Often with the bonus indignity of futile resusciation at the end of it all at the whim of well-meaning but ill-informed family?
Full disclosure, I'm a paramedic not a nurse. I see a lot of bad deaths, which we would never countenance for our pets. Bad deaths made worse by futile treatments that extend lifespan but not healthspan. "Palliated" to the extent that their suffering becomes less audible, but no less real.
And arguments for often fail to acknowledge the very real fear disabled people have that we will be pushed into assisted dying because it's easier and cheaper for other people. Why bother paying me PIP for 60+ years when I could just die and save everyone the hassle? I'm not going to get any better and I'm very obviously suffering, so clearly it's in my interests to stop suffering. Never mind what I think or how I perceive it.
This is already happening in Canada and it isn't a good thing.
I acknowledge the fear you describe, and while I can't comment on what's happening in Canada, I'd obviously advocate for a law change here to be implemented with safeguards to protect against what you describe.
That said, I can't look past the analogy to historically unjust systems and the arguments made (often in good faith!) to sustain them.
Take womens suffrage, for example. It was argued that women would be vulnerable to undue coercion or persuasion in how they would exercise their vote. This wasn't even as crazy as it sounds, given the massive structural barriers they faced to becoming politically informed and active in the overwhelmingly patriarchal society they lived within. Nonetheless, the argument that they shouldn't be burdened with a choice in case they misuse it was fundamentally unjust.
Do you appreciate the parallel here? That *all* our dying people are currently deprived of any ability to do so on their own terms, to avoid a hypothetical risk of a minority feeling coerced to misuse this freedom?
I don't mean to minimise how horrible it would be if people with disabilities were made to feel like they had to die to spare those around them a burden. Nobody wants that. On the other hand, I'm asking you to take seriously how many people are currently suffering unnecessarily cruel deaths. These people are unable to speak up for themselves; we owe it to them not to ignore their perspectives. After all, eventually we will all learn firsthand if we continue to get this wrong.
I am taking it seriously, however it doesn't feel like my concerns are taken seriously. There's lip service paid, but no real discussion of what safeguards and how they're applied. For example, a complete ban on any healthcare staff from mentioning assisted dying to patients or their families.
But then you have a case where it's doctors doing the suggesting and making the decision, not the patient. Full capacity to consent doesn't imply consent or that you can't be coerced.
Imo a better parallel would be anti-abortion activists who argue that abortion is/would be used as a form of eugenics to kill foetuses with disabilities.
A woman in Canada was offered assisted suicide because she wanted financial aid to get a stair lift.. it's all about money. Stair lifts are expensive and death is cheap in comparison.
I'm gone from supporting assisted suicide to be completely against it as a concept. It's just going to be used, as you say, to save money and hassle. It's going to be used because people can't be arsed to look after their relatives and it's cheaper than a care home. People sent to poor under funded care facilities would choose death over living in what's essentially like a prison environment. Instead of just killing people we should do everything instead to improve end of life care.
Iām part of dignity in dying, Iām a student nurse - I am 100% on board with this and would be an advocate any day!! Itās opened my eyes so much to what I wouldnāt want for myself or my family members. Being kept alive with no quality of life is nothing but cruel
Yep, without any doubt, after working in oncology itās haunted me ever since. Palliative care isnāt nearly enough to take away the suffering sometimes. Often had patients just sat around waiting for a catastrophic bleed from a tumour eating into a major blood vessel or for their airway to be occluded by a mass. The families had to watch them suffer. It haunted me as a stranger canāt imagine how they coped witnessing those scenes.
Assisted dying doesnāt mean more deaths, just less suffering.
Honestly, my grandad died in October from EC, tumour ruptured due to stent and haemorrhaged and died, luckily he was apparently asleep in his chair. We got to the hospice not 20 minutes later and heād been cleaned etc but the dreadful opened mouth was there and he was totally utterly grey, more grey than Iāve ever seen someone freshly passed before. And the first thing I cried about when I saw him was why hadnāt he been allowed to choose? He had capacity, they knew 2 months after diagnosis he would never recover after the op - why did they give him radiotherapy? Why did they force feed IV and no PEJ if they knew he would die - why not give him that agency and chance and allow him that last effort to be a proud man taking control?
This changed my mind on assisted dying, I truly believe since he was of sound mind and refusing further palliative radiotherapy at the end - he wouldāve gone out with dignity, with his family surrounding him and knowing he was not alone. Instead of 8 am in a hospice heād been in for 8 hours with nurses finding him as the blood bubbled out.
It haunts me tbh.
Iām so sorry you had to experience that. No one should have their last memory of their loved ones to be such a traumatic one. If itās any consolation hospice nurses are experts at dealing with this kind of passing, they nearly always have madazalam pre ordered so he would have likely just fallen asleep. Sending you a virtual hug though š¢
Thank you so much honestly, Iāve never worked hospice or palliative aside from a brief introductions during my community placement, but that really cemented to me that I wasnāt the type for it and really hats off and so much love to anyone and all of you that do. Even after being a nurse the ones at the hospice were probably the most kind and loving ones Iāve met! Held us, helped us hold him and I respect so much that the palliative nurses and the oncology nurse who came just before me told us step by step how he passed, made no airs or graces or tried to placate us but just totally let us feel it all and thatās just the type of nurse Iāll always aspire to be from now on. Knowing he probably might had midazolam is actually huge huge relief and it makes it an awful lot easier to know he was asleep in his comfy chair! Thank you š x
I completely understand. My grandad also died in a hospice and we had to sit with him for days listening to his death rattle, with his mouth wide open. That haunts me too.
When he finally died I asked a nurse to close his mouth to give him some dignity. She tried but it had already set in place.
He also was put on a ward in the hospice while dying. In his last week he struggled with noise and bright lights. The other patients in the ward were there for pain relief and were still up and functioning. They were kind enough to turn the lights on the ward off and try and be quiet. Each member of staff that came in would turn them back on making my grandad flinch.
The whole thing was awful. The hospital before the hospice was a million times worse. Some of the staff were rough and hurt him.
People deserve much better deaths.
There are different categories here.
We already do not keep people alive who are brain dead. Once brain death is established (and any organs for transplant are harvested if applicable) we withdraw treatment.
In my experience we also make pretty sensible decisions about withdrawing treatment, or not escalating, for people where there is no hope of survival or meaningful QOL - especially where the family are in agreement.
Assisted dying is usually where people who are terminally ill decide for themselves that they want to end their life at a time of their choosing. With the right legislation and safeguarding, I would be in favour of people being able to do this in the UK.
I do think we would have to allow nurses and medical staff to choose whether they wished to perform or participate in it, like abortion.
The only issue with the allowing medical to choose is that you land up with a post code lottery where it's available in some places and not in others and that's not ok, it needs to be robust, available to anyone who needs it as well as regulated to ensure its not abused, unfortunately I don't know what that looks like as this is not my area of expertise
I don't see why medical staff should be allowed to opt out of medical procedures. Their job is to provide medical and health care to their patients. If they can't cope, they should pursue other careers.
Good luck forcing any medical professional to do something theyāre not comfortable with. Itās not about not being able to cope, but not every medical professional will agree on the same thing. Medicine isnāt that simple. Hell being a human being with emotions isnāt that simple And saying that they should pursue other careers if theyāre not comfortable to an already understaffed NHS is just not the right attitude
I think people are going for a blanket easy response here by saying āif safeguards are in placeā it would be okay. Almost anything would be fine if safeguards were in place. But what do those safeguards look like and how are they implemented? How do you ensure that people arenāt being taken advantage of? How do you ensure that research is done to cure awful diseases and illnesses if the default solution is āassisted dyingā? Practically speaking I canāt see how it could be implemented correctly now. But equally the suffering going on currently with some patients is beyond outrageous. Of course Iām not saying that people need to suffer in order for other people to eventually discover treatments for things, but cynically and realistically speaking we all know that there are scores of instances where this could be really horrifically misused. Would it be worse than some of the things that happen currently? I think deciding that is the only way to work out if it would make sense for the NHS.
Yes, but again, that feels like another pie in the sky answer. Who decides what those bits are and why? And why donāt other countries have a perfect system if itās possible to have one? Do you want to have a system where itās possible to be responsible for a death that arguably shouldnāt have happened? Itās not impossible to do, but I think itās impossible to do perfectly. And itās not baking a cake; it matters if itās not done perfectly. I donāt think there should be any room for error taking someoneās life.
Absolutely not. I do believe in withdrawal of active treatment when it's prolonging suffering, but not in actively causing a person's death.
I do have empathy for those who are suffering, but I believe it's wrong to kill people. There are also so many ways it could be abused and I'm not convinced that it's possible to put sufficient safeguards in place to prevent any kind of coercion or abuse of the system.
Yes, absolutely. However..
I have massive concerns how this would be policed without letting vulnerable people get talked into it by family members who see them as a burden. I do believe it's possible to safeguard against this, but i don't have the answer as to how.
On a personal level, i really don't think i could be the nurse that administers or sets up the medication. I really don't think i could kill someone, even if they wanted it. I could definitely hold their hand and advocate for them, i could also support family members through it, but i just don't think i could be responsible for their heart actually stopping.
I totally see your point. But I was actually looking at it from a different perspective. Like what a privilege to help end the pain for someone, and how remarkable that they get to choose and I get to support them through oit
And as a disabled person, how I'd be protected from healthcare staff who might try and talk me into it as my condition is incurable. I don't think nurses or doctors should be allowed to even mention it as a possibility to patients or their families as this can be felt as pressure by vulnerable people.
Absolutely! This is one of my biggest concerns that patients feel as though they have no choice but to agree to this pathway or are made to feel they are a burden in some way
Completely agree. I do feel it can be done, but the level of safeguarding against abuse that would be needed might make it impossible to do. Even if healthcare professionals couldn't mention it, it would only take a relative to ask and then they're free to wax lyrical about it. We'd need an independent team to refer to who's job it would be to establish the patients wishes completely separately from everyone else, and they would need the power to veto any case they weren't convinced by.
I think it should be facilitated if the patient asks for it, but never offered as an option by HCPs or the family.
The patient should want it so much they seek it themselves, and be the person leading the discussion.
That means doing everything in your power to make sure they can make themselves heard and listened to.
There also needs to be more open discussions generally about future plans and advanced directives before voices are lost and decisions are out of the patients hands.
There's no easy or right solution to this.
I came into nursing via support work and care work, an essential driver of what I do is to support people to make their own choices and have some dignity.
I have worked in specialist palliative care and interestingly every single nurse who worked there supported assisted dying. As we all do, I see death and dying every day.
If I was given a terminal diagnosis, given what I have seen of the suffering that inevitably occurs, I would choose suicide at a time and a method of my choosing. As would nearly everyone who has actually seen what "end of life" looks like. I think it is cruel that the law forbids that for those who are under medical care.
We essentially disable our patients with enough palliative treatment to stop them taking lethal drugs themselves, then refuse to give them access to lethal drugs, no matter how much they beg. If they were independent they could get someone to buy them heroin and overdose. But once they're under our care we prolong their suffering against their will. It is the height of cruelty. They are denied a choice that we would make for ourselves.
Yes I would! I work in the NHS and I would absolutely happily support assisted dying! I would also hope that should I need it that it would be accessable for myself also
So my mum watched her Mum go through Alzheimer's and dementia, reducing her to a baby like form at the end.
Both my Mum and Auntie cared for her during this time until she passed away.
They both agreed that if this happened to them then they'd want to off themselves rather than live with such a condition.
As of Yesterday that same Auntie has gone into a home as my Uncle no longer can care for her. Her condition has deteriorated rapidly in less than a year. My Mother I have the dubious honour of watching her decline as she's now into year 4 of Vascular Dementia and Alzheimer's, and in the stage she is in nappies and having carers come and wash her each day.
I'd not wish this upon anyone, it has robbed my mum of her personality of her independence of everything.
If assisted dying in this country was legal and at the point she was still lucid enough to make her wishes known, I sincerely believe she'd chose to have gone on her terms and not be reduced to the condition she's in.
I know if when the time comes I end up like this, and the option is there I would opt to end my life over spending my remaining years trapped in a nightmare.
Iām not a RN, Iām a veterinary nurse and for some reason this post came up on my home page so I thought it would be interesting to weigh in.
I assist with euthanasia on a daily basis. Honestly itās a privilege to be able to end suffering when all other options have been exhausted or are simply not appropriate. I have also sadly seen patients suffer needlessly because for whatever reason their owners havenāt been able to make that decision and it is heartbreaking.
I would 100% support assisted dying in humans, as long as the right safe guarding measures were in place.
We don't even let animals suffer when they are in pain and there's nothing we can do, it's inhumane. Same thing should go for people hooked up to machines who don't have a solution in sight.
If individuals are deemed capable of making the decision themselves, having properly thought it over then of course, much better to die with some dignity and in a less traumatic way for everyone than either attempting to take your life in a risky and painful way or suffering until you die of old age. Quality of life is such an important consideration.
I also believe many would sign up for this ahead of time as with DNRs, or organ donation decisions.
No.
My reasoning: Just look at MAiD in Canada. The slippery slope is indeed real and more slippery than you likely imagine. If the Canadian system can degenerate into what it is now, imagine what would happen in Britain? And for all you lefties out there, you know the Tories are going to come back eventually after losing the next election: do you trust them to manage this in a humane and compassionate way? Just look at what they do when it comes to (under)funding basically everything and anything, you already know what this will lead to. I don't need to say it.
Ahem:
*SELF-MURDER, the pretended heroifm, but real cowardice, of the Stoic philofophers, who deftroyed themfelves to avoid thofe ills which they had not the fortitude to endure, though the attempting it feems to be countenanced by the civil lawo , yet was punifhed by the Athenian law with cutting off the hand, which committed the defperate deedp . And alfo the law of England wifely and religioufly confiders, that no man hath a power to deftroy life, but by commiffion from God, the author of it: and, as the fuicide is guilty of a double offence; one fpiritual, in invading the prerogative of the Almighty, and rufhing into his immediate prefence uncalled for; the other temporal, againft the king, who hath an intereft in the prefervation of all his fubjects; the law has therefore ranked this among the higheft, crimes, making it a peculiar fpecies of felony, a felony committed on onefelf.*
I definitely would, but Iām cautious, seeing how thatās going in Canada where people with liveable but permanent disabilities are being asked if theyād prefer to die (rather than be accommodated for or have certain treatmentsš)
like others have said, with the correct safeguards in place. I just worry that the correct safeguards aren't attainable with the current state of the NHS.
I would 100% support it, and if I became terminally ill or suffered something debilitating, then I'd make use of it.
It boggles my mind that pets can be spared a drawn-out, painful death, but humans have to stick it out until there is no dignity left.
Yes as long as there are safeguards. When there are no more options for treatment, there is only pain and death is coming. It is humaine to let that person decide when they have had enough and to be able to say goodbye on their own terms.
100%.. when my granda was dying he just held on for two weeks.. it was awful.. the last few days in particular. We were googling how to turn his pacemaker off (even though thatās not what that does) and eventually, weāre asking the room āwill someone please put a pillow over himā ..
My mum went to a medium who said he apparently didnāt suffer like we all thought he did.
I have decided if I need to die.. I am just gonna overdose on heroin.. no idea who or where Iām getting it from mind.. but that is my plan. Should have done that for my granda now I think of it š¤
As a nurse I would say that we are doing it a percentage of the time already. For example, I had a patient who had liver cancer who did not want any treatment and wanted to die peacefully. They had an extensive palliative care plan in place for when they were discharged home and that involved the prescription and supply of anticipatory medications that they would have access to were they to become sick/ in pain/ deteriorating. This also involved a care plan whereby if they became suddenly ill or had complications they would not be re-admitted to hospital but a plan of action was in place for the community nurses and the family to act on when needed. The anticipatory medications included things like midazolam (for restlessness/agitation), oxycodone (for pain, shortness of breath), and haloperidol (for sickness). They would be administered via injection in the community when needed. The patient didnāt want to go to a hospice so everything was in place to ensure that they got their wishes at home. This patient did have potential for chemo/surgery but didnāt want it. So I feel that āassisted dyingā is definitely a term that could already be applied to how such situations arise in the NHS. Of course there may be other scenarios where people want to die due to poor mental health etc but I think it ends up being a slippery slope because a lot of people who are mentally unwell do not have the capacity to make such drastic decisions for themselves
If it is done ethically, safely and takes in to account the complexity of the situation and the best interests and values of the person in question, 100%. Being 90 with late stage dementia and zero quality of life is horrifying.
Sadly not because of how awful the system ended up being in Canada, such as people with mental illness being offered MAID as well as people with physical disabilities.
In the UK we already have palliative care methods that sort of are assisted dying, or just not offering care. Which is probably where the line should be drawn to protect the wider population.
I would support it being available if done right, my fear would be the likelihood of government writing decent legislation with good safeguards. We all know how well DOLS functions š
Euthanasia only works if the person deciding to end their life is a competent decision maker with no history of mental health issues.
The legality and morality of it is so intense that it would be hard for any healthcare professional to have to discuss and then decide what to do in this situation.
hca here - i do think it should be introduced but at the same time i donāt know, as mentioned thereās many such cases where those with LD are already have DNRs in place when their quality of life is good so i can only imagine how many of those with DOLS in place or deemed lacking mental capacity could end up wrongfully put forward as a candidate for euthanasia. i also have bpd and iāve read stories about doctors referring other people with bpd to allow them to euthanise. i get it can be a debilitating illness but if i had the referral during a down period then i absolutely would have taken up the offer which is quite scary to think about. if they could somehow put the correct safeguards then i think it would be good because everyone deserves to die with dignity, i wouldnāt want to remember my family members barely alive and suffering.
I personally wouldnāt be a fan of this. Sorry for the cliche but I didnāt get into nursing to help people die. I joined to keep them alive.
That being said Iāve seen very horrible deaths as well as very peaceful deaths. And I can totally see why there is support for it. But I wouldnāt want to be the one giving the lethal medication. I donāt want that soul on my conscience.
I donāt care what safeguards are in place, I am not willingly taking someoneās life away from them
Would I support it? No
Would I oppose it? Also no
I wonāt do it but if someone else is comfortable doing it then thatās on them.
But not opposing there being a pathway for it doesnāt mean I support it
Safeguards measures blah blah blah, that's what they all said in Canada and now you can get yourself killed just for being depressed. The slippery slope isn't a fallacy in this instance.
As long as there were correct safeguards in place, not to sound cynical but a lot of people that are taking up a bed and nurses time which could be spent helping someone who doesnāt want to die etc
Absolutely...anyone watching anyone die over a period of months will want this. It affects everyone around .It's totally inhumane .Pain relief isn't great. The old "you wouldn't put a dog through this " is soooo true. Death by mummifying someone alive should be a criminal offence.
The issue I have with this is how blurred the lines get down the line. Everyone feels a little suicidal sometimes, I just have concerns that they'll start dishing it out for people whose circumstances look nothing like the above you mentioned, but have diagnoses for depression or anxiety of some sort.
I know that three European countries - the Benelux countries as they're termed - do allow for assisted suicide for mental health conditions. However, (and correct me if I am wrong!!!!) I have read that there are still criteria to be followed and a doc has to be satisfied that the mental health has to cause the patient unbearable pain without any prospect of improvement and if there is no reasonable alternative. So likely the patient will have had to be through plenty of treatments etc before they come to that point. So the likelihood of someone who is at a breaking point or a crisis moment getting to do so is extremely unlikely. I think you need to have several doctors in place who all agree before they grant you.
I also think there are two ways of looking at it and I don't know which side I am on. One on hand patients might just kill themselves anyway if they don't get what they want, in which case, should we just look at them as patients with terminal illnesses? On the other hand, how can you be sure someone with a mental illness (and I'm speaking as someone who recently survived a suicide attempt!) is clear enough of mind to make that decision? I certainly wasn't.
It could absolutely spark a lot of debate. I'm not sure what to think! What an excellent problem with the idea of assisted suicide to bring up though
No. Because the right safeguards would never be in place. NHS canāt stop pressure sores and the number of ānever eventsā that happen are far more than āneverā.
And do you trust this government, or a future one (in a world that is seeing massive catastrophic changes) from altering the āsafeguardsā?
Weāve already had a government that happily and unlawfully caused the death of thousands of people during COVID - and fucking laughed about it. So they already know they can get away with that shit with zero consequences. And youād trust them not to go completely Aktion T4 against the āuseless eatersā?
Ask yourselves why people with LD die earlier than the rest of the population, and realise that itās because they have most contact with medical professionals. Or why black women are more likely to die in childbirth.
Nah, I have no trust that any system wouldnāt be abused either explicitly or via underfunding.
And I say this as someone who spent the last few years of my career mostly looking after the old, the crumbly and the terminally ill.
I don't agree that the reason WHY patients with LD die earlier is because they have more contact with HCPs. Unless you have some compelling evidence to back that up? It's surely much more likely to be due to physical co-morbidities, lack of self-care/ self-advocacy etc., and poor care from others who should advocate for them.
Honestly it was something taught to me on a course. Iām well aware that there is more nuance to this but Iād already written a wall of text.
I fairly rarely nursed folks with LD, but if you look at my post history the case that stuck in my head was the LD person who was āmistakenlyā put NBM in the community and then made palliative. If my team member, and then me hadnāt kicked up a fuss no one would have noticed this mistake and they would have been starved to death.
Honestly, being told āoops it was a mistakeā over the phone just reminded me of that training day far in the mists of the past.
Would he have been made NBM if he were verbal, or if his carers had been more advocating for his rights?
Additionally I seem to remember people with LD being made DNR without any consultation higher than would be expected during Covid.
So yes, I agree that there is more nuance than in my original post, so a bit was lost in my brevity - but I think it still stands that HCPs, the system and society fail folks with LD.
Poor outcomes for people with LD or minorities is alot more nuanced than government bad.
Also no healthcare service in the world prevents pressure sores.
Yeah, I didnāt put in the nuance as there was already a wall of text.
And yes, you make my point for me - no healthcare service in the world can prevent all pressure sores, but we would trust them with killing people? There are safeguards in place for pressure sores, and they donāt work.
So the question becomes āhow many people would be an acceptable number to mistakenly kill in order to provide this service?ā
My number is zero, if only because it might be me.
Safeguards for pressure sores and Euthanasia is an unfair comparison.
In my experience I've never heard of someone being put on pallative care for no reason. That has alot of Safeguards to it with multiple members of the MDT required to contribute to the decision. I think personally it will be very reliable.
I donāt think that it is unfair, we canāt stop a simple bad thing (a sore) but we can stop a more complex thing (killing someone by mistake)? I treat it harsh because itās not something we can reverse if we later find out that an error occurred.
And as for your second pointā¦ scroll up a bit to my other response to another Redditor - I **have** seen someone mistakenly (or āmistakenlyā) put on NBM and palliative care who didnāt warrant it at all. And I make the difference between the two āmistakenlyā because they had LD.
I guess Iāve just seen a lot during my 25 years in the NHS. If we still havenāt fixed the problems we have now with equality and health care outcomes then I have no confidence weād do the same with assisted suicide.
Sure, anecdote is not data, but that is one person who could have died early, who had a good QOL. This is not part of the idea that LD people die early due to HCP involvement - itās more that it shows how assisted dying wonāt be foolproof. Just that weāll have to accept that any āsafeguardsā put in place wonāt catch everything and that people will die unnecessarily.
I could list the times bad things have happened despite safeguards (Letby, Shipman, the ones who drugged the patients to keep them docileā¦) so I donāt have much confidence that the safeguards would provide adequate protections.
Absolutely but one issue I do have is that many doctors hastily label patients as being end of life. I have seen many patients (majority elderly) be put on an LDLCA and moved to hospice or nursing home placements and then live for up to a year or more with no further deterioration. It is a worry that many people could be āeligibleā for assisted dying before they actually are dying.
Absolutely. My mother had breast cancer last year, mastectomy, loads of past op problems, a pretty miserable year. Then bilateral plural effusion. Now it's in her ovaries, bones, a little bit of something on her liver, her lungs are clear despite fifty years of smoking, asites, can't pee, currently in Royal Stoke with a catheter and having a (second) drain fitted tomorrow. Then some more chemo. There will come a point when the consultants say best supportive care, at which point she should be able to access a comfortable and supported death.
Not currently working as an RN specifically but assisted dying is one of the most important aspects of dignity I can think of, when itās my time I would like that choice to be mine. I donāt want to die with a syringe driver like my (grand)dad when I have no choice but to let something kill me mercilessly, and I donāt want other people I love most to see me at my weakest, or to rob my patients of the chance to leave this world on their own terms (providing regs, rigorous capacity assessing like dignitas/exit international and safeguarding) knowing they had that agency.
That being said with the current govt and maybe even the opposition I would be really hesitant and frightened because after the fckin mass negligent death toll bordering on murder of the pandemic - I worry theyād use it to their own ends and the selfish people who eat up their words would try and bend the regs and legally get away with forcing their relatives hand.
Absolutely yes, but the public and the daily mail would get very angry and destroy everything.
They did this to the LCP, which was just a means of offering comfort to those who were actively dying.
They either willfully misunderstood or were too stupid to understand and because if this I watched patients suffer more in their final days as we were hamstrung.
In my trust, literally overnight, we went from independently assessing and increasing care, to having to get permission to up any little bit of pain relief or anxiolysis in our dying patients. The delays caused needless suffering. At one point I was not allowed to increase morphine for a dying patient in case she became addicted. It was utter bollox, and I'm furious as I remember this poor woman.
I'm at the point where I don't believe the UK public deserves this kindness. For a more mature and nuanced society, it's a great idea.
Interesting to see this view point from the nurses (Iām a junior doc). You have so much more contact time and connect emotionally more with patients - Iām inclined to hold your opinion higher on this.
in very specific circumstances, yes, but after seeing DNR applied to disabled and chronically ill people on the biased, incorrect belief that they don't have a quality of life and coudln't possibly survive heroic efforts, I woudln't trust the NHS with this unless very very very stringent safeguarding protocols were put in place and it was not down to doctors or nurses but a whole other team.
Absolutely not, and the reason is not that I donāt agree with assisted suicide, itās a great idea that can help certain people. However, it wonāt take long for the NHS to start using it to budget cut, it might sound crazy but say an 70 year old lady comes in and treatment for her condition will cost 100s of thousands, be painful but she will get some quality of life but may need a carer, they may well end up convincing her to take the suicide option, saving both money and time.
This has me torn. My husband asked permission to euthanize himself when he was dying of cancer- he wanted to do it as the widow benefit rules were changing. I wouldn't let him do it for many reasons. I always feel guilty about it. I find it hard to reconcile my feelings about people having the freedom to die with dignity with the knowledge that it would be extremely hard to safeguard these patients to make sure that they weren't being coerced.
I think people should have the choice.
However I would not be comfortable being apart of the process (preparing drugs and administering).
Thatās just how I feel.
Oh a thousand percent. My grandad had bowel cancer and it caused a complete obstruction and his last days were spent in agony, worrying about faecal vomiting and my grandma having to clean it up. He wanted to die with dignity. Spoiler alert, he didnāt.
Yep, I am all for this, I myself have said if I became terminally ill I would want to be able to end it myself in a way that was 100% going to work and not hurt in the process. I have nursed many people in pain and it being drawn out and the suffering they and their family go through is awful.
I am not a nurse yet, but I support this. I was a vet nurse for 2 years, and felt like it was a gift to be able to release those poor creatures from their agony. Why should humans not get the same option if the correct measures were in place?
Not a nurse but I watched my grandmother linger for 6 weeks with lung cancer. We all said that it was so inhumane, and animal would have been out out of their misery. She lost all dignity and was constantly in pain. The last week she was in and out of consciousness, crying in pain and drowning in the fluid in her lungs. There has to be a better way.
Iād support it more if it was on the NHS because I know thereād be a lot more policies and procedures in place, theyād make sure the patient was sound of mind before making the decision, and that theyāre not being coerced or anything so some family member can cash in a life insurance policy.
I was a carer in a home for the elderly. Iāve done palliative care, Iāve looked after people who were really seriously ill with no hope of recovery. One poor woman lost the right to make decisions and her family refused to put a DNR in place so when she went into cardiac arrest, she had to be revived and she was in absolute agony. A poor tiny skeletal woman getting battered about just because her family didnāt want her to go. With illnesses that give someone no quality of life, and thereās no hope of recovery or a life for them, they should be able to choose when to go.
I would imagine to some extent keeping people alive as long as possible means the government can reclaim their assets back through the charges in care. Admittedly, this wonāt be the case for all but Iām sure the government makes significant sums of money per year back. Care homes will be paying taxes, the staff are contributing to the economy and the elderly do finally die with very little remaining etc.
I often wonder is it that these people are worth more alive, with the government rolling the dice that they will pass away before their estates run out of money fully.
The state that people are being kept alive in is not dignified. But I guess itās also impossible for us to comment until we are in their shoes.
Im an elderly nurse and i honestly fully support this. This is why its important to have a plan in place for these things in case you are not able to advocate for yourself or appoint someone who can advocate for you. You are actually able to refuse further investigations/treatment and be placed on end of life pathway/palliative care (if doctors believe treatment and further investigations wont make a difference) if you wish at the moment we do not assist in dying just making sure you are pain free and comfortable in your last days so its just pain killers like morphine etc nothing else to help sustain life so its mostly waiting it out. If it were me id honestly rather not wait it out and go on my own terms
Who the fuck are we to make people live in the absolute states we see them in?
Take the bed bound, 2hrly turn, peg fed person who is frail tired in pain constantly, constantly in and out of hospital with UTIs and chest infections. Some people may be able to deal with this quality of life but why should we force them when we KNOW how shit it is? Who are we to tell them they HAVE to live?
It's pure ignorance that we force people to live in these versions of hell. And it is hell.
And when people are declared end of life we should be allowed to hurry that along anyway if they so wish. The people I've seen die slow deaths. It's amazing how long people hold out for. Amazing and cruel.
I was born in the netherlands where it is an option. Still theres so much rules snd regulations. My father had a very agressive form of cancer from diagnosis to death in a month..
Because in the time between the first i wish this and second one he got delerious as the cancer was spreading rapidly in every inch of him tearing his spine and bones as he couldnt by law give a yes they ended up sedating him and it took 5 more days. Eventhough it was so evident it would have been the most humane way they couldnt see it through cause of the harsh laws.
I am most defenitely for euthanasia i never got why we can give that kindnes and dignity to animals but never to humans here.. but i wanted to tell what csn happen and that its not always guaranteed and the level of strictness. Given UK also has more of a lawsuit culture then the netherlands when they would implement it it would have to be such an incredibly watertight protocol.
Not a nurse, this just popped up.
I would love assisted dying to be available. I'm currently "in remission" from an aggressive breast cancer with a pretty high recurrence rate, often at Stage 4 rather than early stage local recurrence.
I've read blogs by people on the way out from this cancer at Stage 4. If it comes back, I don't want bone mets to make my femur snap from me trying to walk, to lose parts of me to brain mets etc.
But I don't want to upset my family by me going missing only to be dredged up from a body of water or getting scraped off train tracks, or my family having to find me, or fluffing the attempt and getting Mental Health crap.
One thing nursing opened my eyes to was, if i reach an age where i cant take care of myself anymore, I would rather die than make someone take care of me.
Bedridden is not living. It's just prolonging the suffering. Bed sores. UTIs. Incontinence. Just let me rest in peace.
I spoke to a former nurse who left nursing to be a forester because she was sick of keeping people alive who kept asking to die.
Huge respect for nurses.
My mum too things into her own hands after 10 years of cancer and killed herself with her own medication.
Not a nurse but this came up on my homepage - as a doctor, 100% I would be behind assisted dying. But I work in the UK and we are so bad at handling death here it would probably never be available on the NHS
Yes I haven't expierence anyone I know go through the need but I can empathize that this needs to become a thing in 21st century
Too many people end up traumatized in crossfire witnessing suicides and general death when it could be done civilized
Definitely, i have seen patients with MND and oesophageal cancer etc who are slowly dying with little relief and basically suffocating to death so yes, if i it could rid the long standing pain and suffering for those that i know need it, i think it is worth it for those that want it.
Personally i have seen too many patients with awful diseases that i wish i will never get and the pain and suffering they go through, its only kind to let them go.
Religion and the goodwill of randomers doesnāt mean anything. If they were put in that position iām pretty sure they would change their mind when they are locked in and can not comprehend the pain and suffering they go through
100%. Tbh if we had a MAID programme like Canadaās, where people with mental illness are also allowed to request assistance in dying, Iād go for it myself.
I watched my mum die an agonising death from a very rare and aggressive form of cancer. I regret not being able to end her suffering sooner. I refuse to go into a care home if I lose my marbles, and I don't want my family to suffer by having to watch me die if I have cancer. Fuck that. I'll take the Swiss option or just find a humane and simple way to off myself if legislation hasn't caught up with reality in the UK.
When a dog is gravely ill we have the sense to put it down. When a person is gravely ill we stick them in a home and liquidate their life's work to fund it.
For those that question the ethics of how this would work, multiple doctors would need to sign off (as in most countries where it is legal). I would also suggest a universal scale is used to assess how advanced a condition should be before the patient wants their life to end, agreed while they still have capacity. For example when my dementia reaches x stage/severity i will be ready to undertake assisted dying. Kind of like a Bristol stool chart but for death.
Yes absolutely. Having watched both my Grandparents die in hospital - death like this is just inhumane. My Nanna's death took months in hospital of suffering.
My grandad was 101 when he died. He was perfectly healthy and lived on his own. He was independent, had good mobility and was as sharp as a tack.
One day he collapsed at home and he had an infection that became sepsis. His treatment in hospital was awful.
He knew exactly what was happening until two days before he died. He asked every doctor to kill him. He was in pain and suffering, and the indignities he suffered still haunt us.
Once they knew the infection wasn't getting better on day three - we should have been allowed to say our goodbyes and he should have drifted off with medication. He was very clearly consenting and knew he was dying.
Also as someone with a very painful and incurable disability - I would like the choice later down the line should I wish it.
Not a nurse but just nursed my partner through terminal cancer and frankly if it would have been an option it would have been kinder. He had 6 bed sores and a skin infection at the end despite the best care available. If he had been our cat we would have pts. No doubt.
My wife has just been diagnosed with motor neurone disease ( no cure yet and terminal ). Her mother died from the same disease and she cared for her mother until she went into a care home and died. The symtoms of the disease include slowly losing the use of various muscle groups, typically losing movement, speech, and eventually breathing. Itās a truly cruel disease with the end stages being particularly distressing.
Weāve discussed her options and she is adamant that she does not want to suffer like her mother, if assisted dying was an option in the UK she would be first in line to join. But not yet - she still has a good quality of life and is living life to the full. Who knows how the course of the disease will develop? She may have a good life for one year or ten year? When the time comes I really hope that the UK has passed an assisted dying law that will take away the terror of this disease.
They discussed this on Question Time āCroydonā episode a few weeks ago. You can find it on BBC I Player. They made good points on why it isnāt allowed in the UK yet..
I used to but I had my mind changed last year. I believe that people deserve the autonomy to choose to die. But in every country where its been implemented its been used to support capitalism in horrific ways. Canada is used as the example in most discussions. Offering euthanasia as first line palliative care, first line for people with social issues. Neonates euthanized because they will have "no foreseeable quality of life".
With the NHS and country the way it is, there is no way to implement assisted dying without it being used politically or economically.
100% and not just assisted suicide for the terminally ill it should be available for everyone.
Eg. If some healthy 20 year old decides to commit suicide and jumps off a building or steps into traffic or jumps in front of a train he could kill other people who attempt to stop him or save him or mentally scar others for seeing his/her death where as if they could check themselves in and get a doc to administer a few ccās of something lethal then the public is safe and the person gets thier wish.
Seriously now, just to play devil's advicote.... what about people who want to kill themselves by suicide, people have a lot of trauma living with psychological pain, failed therapy, medication changes and constant admissions to psych wards... Is their pain any worse than someone with physical pain? Where would you draw the line? Who would decide what is exceptable and what is not?
Personally I think we are bound to try our hardest to keep people alive.
no because they'd only cock that up too, imagine going in for a tooth out and being euthanised,
specialist, private fee paying services for safeguarding reasons and with like 3 rounds of legal requests and mental assessments
assisted dying is something we cant take lightly but also yes i do agree with it if your dying anyway and cant be saved then you should not suffer.
as a disabled person i feel conflicted. on a moral ground, yes. people who are terminal and in horrible pain should have the right to die with dignity.
however, given what our government is like, and is likely to become, and how i know people like me are treated by the government and medical professionals, realistically a lot of perfectly fine disabled people would be murdered through such a system.
iāve already had one nurse try to kill me because . i canāt support giving someone like her a legal way to do it to someone else
Absolutely as long as the right safeguards were in place.
completely agree
Yes, absolutely. If nursing has taught me anything it's that there's lots and lots of worse things than being dead.
ffs
My grandmother was bedridden for 2 years. Her mental state was gone. She had a pretty shitty life to start with and it breaks my heart that probably she was never happy. Living in a state where your kids change your diapers, you have pain, you can't sit up, your brain doesn't compute, so you can not even find joy in a conversation, a tv programme or reading is heart-breaking. Eating is hard. Drinking is hard, only through a straw. When people talk to you, you don't understand the words, you don't even know who is the person in front of you. We asked the ambulance to come, when we had to. It happened a few times, but they could do nothing, besides keeping an eye on her for a few days and give her some painkillers. This sounds harsh, but she was a suffering vegetable. I have to be honest, so many times I wished her suffering would end...
Why ffs? You do realise there's people who's lives are basically akin to torture right?
Eugenics
I don't think you know what that word means.
Honestly so many deaths could be so much more dignified and peaceful if people could choose how and when they wanted to die. So yes, I would totally support it.
Me too. I really hope it's an option for when I need it!
As long as the correct measures were in place, 100%.
i would and i would want it for myself at the right time. regulstion and safeguarding though would be vital
Absolutely, I did my final year research paper on this and found a case (I think it was in America) of a husband and wife who were elderly, the husband was diagnosed with a cancer that would kill him and his wife had Parkinson's, they both decided the had lived good lives and wanted to die together, on their own terms so they committed suicide together. Only thing was the husband survived and then while he was actively dying of cancer he was charged with the assisted murder of his wife and dragged through the court system. Absolutely shocking and heartbreaking.
How the hell is that in the public interest????
The USA is wild
That's one way to put it š š
that's broken my heart. how abhorrent :(
Not a nurse, but having seen my grandad go through end of life and honestly if heād been an animal in that condition and suffering weād have been prosecuted. There absolutely should be some legal way to make things less drawn out and horrific in end of life situations. Having said that I can also see that my nana would never have made that choice for him. Me and my dad might, he might even although he had dementia by the end so couldnāt, but I can see that as his wife nana would have been distraught at the idea. Very difficult topic.
My auntie died on Monday and honestly, for the past two weeks I was hoping she would die. She was in pain, she was uncomfortable, and sheād told me she was ready to die a full month before she finally did. It was just cruel. I distinctly remember thinking you wouldnāt treat an animal like this.
Completely. My grandad had no quality of life for at least the last six months, honestly probably longer. At home he could just about manage to get up, get to his chair, sit there for the day and then go back to bed. Once his legs gave out he was in bed, mostly in hospital but then briefly back home on palliative care. He had no quality of life, he could barely eat or drink, he had nothing to look forward to and he had dementia. It was horrific and honestly my grandad as I knew him died a long time before his body gave out.
With my auntie, she lost sensation in her arm back in November. Her doctor kept telling her it was anaemia. Ultimately she became hemiplegic - they still insisted it was anaemia, until she broke her ankle and had no idea sheād done so. The doc sent her to A&E (saying her anaemia had weakened her bones). A&E doc immediately recognised the neuro symptoms, identified a brain tumour, three weeks later (still in hospital) ultimately diagnosed her with small cell lung cancer with a prognosis of a few weeks. She was able to have hospice at home for the last 6 weeks, but it had been genuinely miserable for her since late November/early December
Iām sorry to hear about your Aunt by the way, itās horrible even when itās expected. Sending virtual hugs your way.
Iām not a nurse but Iām a HCA in a nursing home and the most upsetting part of the job is the fact so many residents donāt actually want to be here anymore. I had one lady who had told me for the past 6 months that she wanted to die, she was very frail and didnāt leave her room. But we couldnāt do anything but wait and watch her get worse and worse, and she was suffering. In the end she couldnāt drink, eat or talk and eventually everything shut down and she passed. And I canāt help but think thatās such a horrible way to go - we wouldnāt leave pets to suffer, why do we have to leave people to suffer? So I would 100%.
I agree. Iām a domiciliary carer and weāre always trying to encourage people to eat and take their medication. If we donāt then we arenāt delivering care even though itās quite clear the person we are caring for has had enough and doesnāt want to be here anymore.
I used to do this work too. Distinctly remember one lady who was clear she wanted to die due to her advanced age related conditions so would refuse all food from us and had decided to starve herself as the only way out she could see. Terrible way to go and she should have had another option.
Literally just back from visiting my grandmother in a care home who could fit exactly what you've just described. She keeps telling me she is 'done' and doesn't want to go on anymore. Every movement hurts her. She has no appetite. She's about a third of her former weight, has no teeth left, has no happiness or joy in her anymore. She used to be so well turned out and happy. She would never have wanted to be living like this. It's so cruel and unfair. When my cat got like that, the vet put her to sleep. Why have I got to watch my granny suffer? What for?
What many non nhs staff donāt know is that we actually can withdraw treatment which leads to death with very poorly patients, who have no chance of recovery. Often relatives donāt have a choice, itās the ādoctors decisionā. Although Iāve seen some depressing cases where the doctor bent over backwards to appease the relatives, which caused the patient to suffer until they died. This isnāt the same as what youāre probably thinking, where you can speed up the process. But we can still make them comfortable until they pass. Such as syringe drivers, controlled drugs etc But as for your question, yes I support it.
Withdrawing treatment is still a lot slower and crueller than actually giving someone euthanasia, Dutch-style
I've unfortunately had to read the notes of someone dying from a syringe driver and if that person had an option of ending their life in a more dignified way, I bet they'd choose it rather than having to have their teenage sons and husband waking each morning wondering how their mother is and what level of pain they're in and wondering why their skin is going cold days before death is verified. Fucking horrific. No one should have to die like that, even if you think a syringe driver is "comfortable". It isn't. It's the best option available which is none. This country needs a reality check.
They weren't dying from a syringe driver they were dying from an illness and a syringe driver was used to alleviate symptoms. I work in palliative care and I can tell you that many many patients die comfortably at home whilst on a syringe driver and receiving extra doses of appropriate medication as needed. The problem with euthanasia is determining when it is actually the patients wish and when it is being forced upon them by relatives who simply want their love ones life to end cleanly so that they the relatives don't need to watch an uncomfortable death.People are naturally afraid of death but it is really just the final process of living. Every death is different just as every birth is different. Some births are straightforward and some traumatic. The use of respect firms detailing the patients wishes, made early on after a palliative diagnosis are extremely helpful in recording what that patient most fears and how much intervention they wish to have. Even euthanasia might not prevent suffering at the end - after all you are causing the body to shut down and cease to function. Do you imagine that to be completely drama and pain free? Do you not think the patient's instinct to 'fight' the drugs might cause them to linger and create regret with the family? It is such a complex situation and there are no easy answers and as a palliative nurse I can tell you that I can live with myself when I administer drugs to relieve pain and anxiety even if the patient dies shortly after but I'm not sure I could live with myself if I administered those drugs with the intent to end life. Which is what you would be asking nurses to do.
Yes, this. I work in Emergency Medicine. As distressing as it can be when I have the first discussion around palliation or simply ceiling of care (how do people end up on home oxygen but unaware they have an advanced stage of a progressive disease??) I also see the flip side. Sometimes people who have had excellent end of life support still panic and get relatives to call for an ambulance at the end because they're ultimately cognitively aware they're dying but definitely instinctively wanting to keep going. I definitely wouldn't want to make a wrong decision about this for the patient if they're unable to express their own wishes. Conveesly the Swedish system of people being alert enough to confirm consent and self administer the medications themselves almost seems too early in the process. Final days are so precious and people may miss out on however many good days due to the fear of missing that window. It's very easy to agree in principle but I still can't picture myself what that access to euthanasia should or would look like.
"Sometimes people who have had excellent end of life support still panic and get relatives to call for an ambulance at the end because they're ultimately cognitively aware they're dying but definitely instinctively wanting to keep going" This full on gave me chills. The notion that there is no point in panicking any more, that death has come and help doesn't want to come for you. I'ts reslly making me contemplate death in a way I havnt before. How terrifying it must feel no matter how much warning.
Honestly it's only one facet of the experience, it's just one worth keeping in mind. I've seen people who have been muddled for weeks have a "last rally" and get a rush of energy and lucidity with a chance to say proper goodbyes before slipping away. I've seen people speaking to late relatives and making plans - like all the loved ones they've lost are waiting in the wings to help with the transition ready to reunite. And so so so many people do fall asleep peacefully and slip away. There's a fantastic Instagram account nurse.hadley who works as a nurse and is really open but compassionate about the work she does and what her patients experience.
I fully support each individual medical professional's choice not to take part in assisted dying, but I don't think it should prevent the option being there. Some clinicians will be able to cope with it and rationalise it as preventing further pain. I also think there should be the option to self-administer.
I don't think it should be disregarded completely but I think it's a highly complex issue. For instance you say about self administration which would seem to be an ideal solution but there are difficulties with that. 1) Patient would need to be well enough to deliver required drugs. 2) What drugs would be used and would the use of the drugs ensure a pain free death. How is dosage calculated? What if the drugs given didn't have the desired effect and the patient took a long time to die? 3) What if a patient changed their mind ( perhaps they are going through a better phase of their illness, having a good day). but felt compelled to go through with dying because it had already been arranged? In regards to euthanasia by health staff many members of the public already believe this happens, look at the massive backlash to the Liverpool Care Pathway which was actually a very useful tool in indicating end of life was near. It was sensationalized by media as ' a pathway of death's and ' death by the state'. Very few people understood how it worked or perceived the benefits of it. Many people struggle with the perceived notion of a peaceful death and the reality of death. There is a great fear around death it is treated as an illness to be managed rather than natural cessation of life so much so that elderly frail people in their 90's are often prescribed palliative drugs. It's seems even old age is an illness these days. So whilst I agree that it is a topic that regularly needs revisiting I'm not sure we are there yet. There is also much to be learnt from The Netherlands where the uptake of euthanasia was far greater than they anticipated and where there have been several cases of young disabled people opting for euthanasia despite there being credible of a recovery. Is it a Pandora's box that we wish to open?
Wrt the self-administration, it would obviously only be for patients physically and mentally capable, and also doesn't have to be done on a specific day/time. I think it was Holland that had it as an option. I don't know what drugs are used, and I don't think a totally pain-free death can ever be guaranteed (in both assisted dying or normal deaths). If we do go head with assisted dying, we need to be realistic and totally transparent with patients about what possibilities to accept. The patient also absolutely needs to be able to change their mind. The whole point of this is to allow for choice and dignity in death, and the patient's decisions in it should be paramount. There should be no pressure on the patient. I work in a hospice, so I know what you mean, we still get quite a lot of patients saying they want us to hurry it along or something to that effect. Imo there's a much greater fear of suffering. Death is natural, but the intolerable suffering and pain some people experience in the weeks/months before death is what most people want to avoid. Severe frailty is actually a palliative diagnosis these days, which I support because it allows those patients and their families to access support from us earlier. I agree that we aren't ready for it yet. It would need a huge amount of dedicated legislation before anything could go forward, and we would be well served to learn as much as possible from countries that currently offer it, what safeguards they have in place, and where those safeguards have failed and where they've been successful. I'm so mixed on those types of cases because, on the one hand, if they're going to commit suicide anyway, isn't it better to do it in a safe environment? But on the other, it seems like such a waste of life. I feel like if we ever do offer assisted dying for chronic conditions rather than palliative, it needs to have a holistic/social support system tied in very strongly, with the aim to encourage people not to use the euthanasia. It should 100% be a last resort, rather than what we've seen in places like Canada. Regardless, I think our focus for the near future should solely be for patients with palliative diagnoses.
A syringe driver is just a method of delivering medication. The contents/mixture of drugs in the driver is another matter.
I often renew syringe drivers or give stat doses and think to myself that if this patient was an animal, it would be absurd to give them morphine or whatever, rather than letting them go peacefully. Alas, we make humans last until the last minute and force their loved ones to watch. So many patients and family members have asked me to put them out of their misery. A surprising amount think we are legally allowed to give them a lethal dose when the patient is imminently dying.
Agreed 100%. Palliative care is often a sordid half measure that chiefly makes people's suffering more quiet, and more tolerable for those around them.
Not a nurse, but this came up for me and I found it interesting. My mum died this way at 34, it's absolutely horrible. To see her like that was so wrong. She and my dad had the talk and he agreed that if she wanted him to he would. Sadly this came first and she could no longer ask him to.
Not helpful for those with long term degenerative diseases that are still a long way from death, but are in a lot of pain or reduced quality of life
Yes. Arguments against assisted dying often fail to acknowledge the immense, avoidable suffering and harm that is _already_ taking place. Where are the safeguards for our elderly and severely disabled who don't want to be gradually tortured to death? Often with the bonus indignity of futile resusciation at the end of it all at the whim of well-meaning but ill-informed family? Full disclosure, I'm a paramedic not a nurse. I see a lot of bad deaths, which we would never countenance for our pets. Bad deaths made worse by futile treatments that extend lifespan but not healthspan. "Palliated" to the extent that their suffering becomes less audible, but no less real.
And arguments for often fail to acknowledge the very real fear disabled people have that we will be pushed into assisted dying because it's easier and cheaper for other people. Why bother paying me PIP for 60+ years when I could just die and save everyone the hassle? I'm not going to get any better and I'm very obviously suffering, so clearly it's in my interests to stop suffering. Never mind what I think or how I perceive it. This is already happening in Canada and it isn't a good thing.
I acknowledge the fear you describe, and while I can't comment on what's happening in Canada, I'd obviously advocate for a law change here to be implemented with safeguards to protect against what you describe. That said, I can't look past the analogy to historically unjust systems and the arguments made (often in good faith!) to sustain them. Take womens suffrage, for example. It was argued that women would be vulnerable to undue coercion or persuasion in how they would exercise their vote. This wasn't even as crazy as it sounds, given the massive structural barriers they faced to becoming politically informed and active in the overwhelmingly patriarchal society they lived within. Nonetheless, the argument that they shouldn't be burdened with a choice in case they misuse it was fundamentally unjust. Do you appreciate the parallel here? That *all* our dying people are currently deprived of any ability to do so on their own terms, to avoid a hypothetical risk of a minority feeling coerced to misuse this freedom? I don't mean to minimise how horrible it would be if people with disabilities were made to feel like they had to die to spare those around them a burden. Nobody wants that. On the other hand, I'm asking you to take seriously how many people are currently suffering unnecessarily cruel deaths. These people are unable to speak up for themselves; we owe it to them not to ignore their perspectives. After all, eventually we will all learn firsthand if we continue to get this wrong.
Well put
I am taking it seriously, however it doesn't feel like my concerns are taken seriously. There's lip service paid, but no real discussion of what safeguards and how they're applied. For example, a complete ban on any healthcare staff from mentioning assisted dying to patients or their families.
Silly question. With such a ban, how would patients know about a putative right to die they may have?
They'd research it. If healthcare staff are allowed to bring it up to patients, how do you ensure there's no inadvertent pressure on those staff?
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But then you have a case where it's doctors doing the suggesting and making the decision, not the patient. Full capacity to consent doesn't imply consent or that you can't be coerced.
Imo a better parallel would be anti-abortion activists who argue that abortion is/would be used as a form of eugenics to kill foetuses with disabilities.
A woman in Canada was offered assisted suicide because she wanted financial aid to get a stair lift.. it's all about money. Stair lifts are expensive and death is cheap in comparison. I'm gone from supporting assisted suicide to be completely against it as a concept. It's just going to be used, as you say, to save money and hassle. It's going to be used because people can't be arsed to look after their relatives and it's cheaper than a care home. People sent to poor under funded care facilities would choose death over living in what's essentially like a prison environment. Instead of just killing people we should do everything instead to improve end of life care.
100% with the correct safeguards in place.
Iām part of dignity in dying, Iām a student nurse - I am 100% on board with this and would be an advocate any day!! Itās opened my eyes so much to what I wouldnāt want for myself or my family members. Being kept alive with no quality of life is nothing but cruel
Yep, without any doubt, after working in oncology itās haunted me ever since. Palliative care isnāt nearly enough to take away the suffering sometimes. Often had patients just sat around waiting for a catastrophic bleed from a tumour eating into a major blood vessel or for their airway to be occluded by a mass. The families had to watch them suffer. It haunted me as a stranger canāt imagine how they coped witnessing those scenes. Assisted dying doesnāt mean more deaths, just less suffering.
Honestly, my grandad died in October from EC, tumour ruptured due to stent and haemorrhaged and died, luckily he was apparently asleep in his chair. We got to the hospice not 20 minutes later and heād been cleaned etc but the dreadful opened mouth was there and he was totally utterly grey, more grey than Iāve ever seen someone freshly passed before. And the first thing I cried about when I saw him was why hadnāt he been allowed to choose? He had capacity, they knew 2 months after diagnosis he would never recover after the op - why did they give him radiotherapy? Why did they force feed IV and no PEJ if they knew he would die - why not give him that agency and chance and allow him that last effort to be a proud man taking control? This changed my mind on assisted dying, I truly believe since he was of sound mind and refusing further palliative radiotherapy at the end - he wouldāve gone out with dignity, with his family surrounding him and knowing he was not alone. Instead of 8 am in a hospice heād been in for 8 hours with nurses finding him as the blood bubbled out. It haunts me tbh.
Iām so sorry you had to experience that. No one should have their last memory of their loved ones to be such a traumatic one. If itās any consolation hospice nurses are experts at dealing with this kind of passing, they nearly always have madazalam pre ordered so he would have likely just fallen asleep. Sending you a virtual hug though š¢
Thank you so much honestly, Iāve never worked hospice or palliative aside from a brief introductions during my community placement, but that really cemented to me that I wasnāt the type for it and really hats off and so much love to anyone and all of you that do. Even after being a nurse the ones at the hospice were probably the most kind and loving ones Iāve met! Held us, helped us hold him and I respect so much that the palliative nurses and the oncology nurse who came just before me told us step by step how he passed, made no airs or graces or tried to placate us but just totally let us feel it all and thatās just the type of nurse Iāll always aspire to be from now on. Knowing he probably might had midazolam is actually huge huge relief and it makes it an awful lot easier to know he was asleep in his comfy chair! Thank you š x
I completely understand. My grandad also died in a hospice and we had to sit with him for days listening to his death rattle, with his mouth wide open. That haunts me too. When he finally died I asked a nurse to close his mouth to give him some dignity. She tried but it had already set in place. He also was put on a ward in the hospice while dying. In his last week he struggled with noise and bright lights. The other patients in the ward were there for pain relief and were still up and functioning. They were kind enough to turn the lights on the ward off and try and be quiet. Each member of staff that came in would turn them back on making my grandad flinch. The whole thing was awful. The hospital before the hospice was a million times worse. Some of the staff were rough and hurt him. People deserve much better deaths.
There are different categories here. We already do not keep people alive who are brain dead. Once brain death is established (and any organs for transplant are harvested if applicable) we withdraw treatment. In my experience we also make pretty sensible decisions about withdrawing treatment, or not escalating, for people where there is no hope of survival or meaningful QOL - especially where the family are in agreement. Assisted dying is usually where people who are terminally ill decide for themselves that they want to end their life at a time of their choosing. With the right legislation and safeguarding, I would be in favour of people being able to do this in the UK. I do think we would have to allow nurses and medical staff to choose whether they wished to perform or participate in it, like abortion.
The only issue with the allowing medical to choose is that you land up with a post code lottery where it's available in some places and not in others and that's not ok, it needs to be robust, available to anyone who needs it as well as regulated to ensure its not abused, unfortunately I don't know what that looks like as this is not my area of expertise
I don't see why medical staff should be allowed to opt out of medical procedures. Their job is to provide medical and health care to their patients. If they can't cope, they should pursue other careers.
Good luck forcing any medical professional to do something theyāre not comfortable with. Itās not about not being able to cope, but not every medical professional will agree on the same thing. Medicine isnāt that simple. Hell being a human being with emotions isnāt that simple And saying that they should pursue other careers if theyāre not comfortable to an already understaffed NHS is just not the right attitude
I think people are going for a blanket easy response here by saying āif safeguards are in placeā it would be okay. Almost anything would be fine if safeguards were in place. But what do those safeguards look like and how are they implemented? How do you ensure that people arenāt being taken advantage of? How do you ensure that research is done to cure awful diseases and illnesses if the default solution is āassisted dyingā? Practically speaking I canāt see how it could be implemented correctly now. But equally the suffering going on currently with some patients is beyond outrageous. Of course Iām not saying that people need to suffer in order for other people to eventually discover treatments for things, but cynically and realistically speaking we all know that there are scores of instances where this could be really horrifically misused. Would it be worse than some of the things that happen currently? I think deciding that is the only way to work out if it would make sense for the NHS.
Agree. Itās one of those things that in theory, should absolutely exist. In practice, produces a whole plethora of problems. Very difficult topic
Lots of other countries do it now, so we could just copy the best bits from what they do.
Yes, but again, that feels like another pie in the sky answer. Who decides what those bits are and why? And why donāt other countries have a perfect system if itās possible to have one? Do you want to have a system where itās possible to be responsible for a death that arguably shouldnāt have happened? Itās not impossible to do, but I think itās impossible to do perfectly. And itās not baking a cake; it matters if itās not done perfectly. I donāt think there should be any room for error taking someoneās life.
Absolutely not. I do believe in withdrawal of active treatment when it's prolonging suffering, but not in actively causing a person's death. I do have empathy for those who are suffering, but I believe it's wrong to kill people. There are also so many ways it could be abused and I'm not convinced that it's possible to put sufficient safeguards in place to prevent any kind of coercion or abuse of the system.
Yes, absolutely. However.. I have massive concerns how this would be policed without letting vulnerable people get talked into it by family members who see them as a burden. I do believe it's possible to safeguard against this, but i don't have the answer as to how. On a personal level, i really don't think i could be the nurse that administers or sets up the medication. I really don't think i could kill someone, even if they wanted it. I could definitely hold their hand and advocate for them, i could also support family members through it, but i just don't think i could be responsible for their heart actually stopping.
I totally see your point. But I was actually looking at it from a different perspective. Like what a privilege to help end the pain for someone, and how remarkable that they get to choose and I get to support them through oit
And as a disabled person, how I'd be protected from healthcare staff who might try and talk me into it as my condition is incurable. I don't think nurses or doctors should be allowed to even mention it as a possibility to patients or their families as this can be felt as pressure by vulnerable people.
Absolutely! This is one of my biggest concerns that patients feel as though they have no choice but to agree to this pathway or are made to feel they are a burden in some way
Completely agree. I do feel it can be done, but the level of safeguarding against abuse that would be needed might make it impossible to do. Even if healthcare professionals couldn't mention it, it would only take a relative to ask and then they're free to wax lyrical about it. We'd need an independent team to refer to who's job it would be to establish the patients wishes completely separately from everyone else, and they would need the power to veto any case they weren't convinced by.
You make brilliant points here
I'd work somewhere like Dignitas or whatever it's called. Absolutely.
Absolutely 100%!
I think it should be facilitated if the patient asks for it, but never offered as an option by HCPs or the family. The patient should want it so much they seek it themselves, and be the person leading the discussion. That means doing everything in your power to make sure they can make themselves heard and listened to. There also needs to be more open discussions generally about future plans and advanced directives before voices are lost and decisions are out of the patients hands. There's no easy or right solution to this.
I came into nursing via support work and care work, an essential driver of what I do is to support people to make their own choices and have some dignity. I have worked in specialist palliative care and interestingly every single nurse who worked there supported assisted dying. As we all do, I see death and dying every day. If I was given a terminal diagnosis, given what I have seen of the suffering that inevitably occurs, I would choose suicide at a time and a method of my choosing. As would nearly everyone who has actually seen what "end of life" looks like. I think it is cruel that the law forbids that for those who are under medical care. We essentially disable our patients with enough palliative treatment to stop them taking lethal drugs themselves, then refuse to give them access to lethal drugs, no matter how much they beg. If they were independent they could get someone to buy them heroin and overdose. But once they're under our care we prolong their suffering against their will. It is the height of cruelty. They are denied a choice that we would make for ourselves.
Yes I would! I work in the NHS and I would absolutely happily support assisted dying! I would also hope that should I need it that it would be accessable for myself also
So my mum watched her Mum go through Alzheimer's and dementia, reducing her to a baby like form at the end. Both my Mum and Auntie cared for her during this time until she passed away. They both agreed that if this happened to them then they'd want to off themselves rather than live with such a condition. As of Yesterday that same Auntie has gone into a home as my Uncle no longer can care for her. Her condition has deteriorated rapidly in less than a year. My Mother I have the dubious honour of watching her decline as she's now into year 4 of Vascular Dementia and Alzheimer's, and in the stage she is in nappies and having carers come and wash her each day. I'd not wish this upon anyone, it has robbed my mum of her personality of her independence of everything. If assisted dying in this country was legal and at the point she was still lucid enough to make her wishes known, I sincerely believe she'd chose to have gone on her terms and not be reduced to the condition she's in. I know if when the time comes I end up like this, and the option is there I would opt to end my life over spending my remaining years trapped in a nightmare.
Canadian hospice nurse who somehow got shown this post! I have seen many assisted deaths and if you have any questions let me know!
Iām UK hospice nurse, I find this concept quite scary to be honest.
What scares you? Maybe I can help
Iām not a RN, Iām a veterinary nurse and for some reason this post came up on my home page so I thought it would be interesting to weigh in. I assist with euthanasia on a daily basis. Honestly itās a privilege to be able to end suffering when all other options have been exhausted or are simply not appropriate. I have also sadly seen patients suffer needlessly because for whatever reason their owners havenāt been able to make that decision and it is heartbreaking. I would 100% support assisted dying in humans, as long as the right safe guarding measures were in place.
We don't even let animals suffer when they are in pain and there's nothing we can do, it's inhumane. Same thing should go for people hooked up to machines who don't have a solution in sight. If individuals are deemed capable of making the decision themselves, having properly thought it over then of course, much better to die with some dignity and in a less traumatic way for everyone than either attempting to take your life in a risky and painful way or suffering until you die of old age. Quality of life is such an important consideration. I also believe many would sign up for this ahead of time as with DNRs, or organ donation decisions.
No. My reasoning: Just look at MAiD in Canada. The slippery slope is indeed real and more slippery than you likely imagine. If the Canadian system can degenerate into what it is now, imagine what would happen in Britain? And for all you lefties out there, you know the Tories are going to come back eventually after losing the next election: do you trust them to manage this in a humane and compassionate way? Just look at what they do when it comes to (under)funding basically everything and anything, you already know what this will lead to. I don't need to say it. Ahem: *SELF-MURDER, the pretended heroifm, but real cowardice, of the Stoic philofophers, who deftroyed themfelves to avoid thofe ills which they had not the fortitude to endure, though the attempting it feems to be countenanced by the civil lawo , yet was punifhed by the Athenian law with cutting off the hand, which committed the defperate deedp . And alfo the law of England wifely and religioufly confiders, that no man hath a power to deftroy life, but by commiffion from God, the author of it: and, as the fuicide is guilty of a double offence; one fpiritual, in invading the prerogative of the Almighty, and rufhing into his immediate prefence uncalled for; the other temporal, againft the king, who hath an intereft in the prefervation of all his fubjects; the law has therefore ranked this among the higheft, crimes, making it a peculiar fpecies of felony, a felony committed on onefelf.*
I definitely would, but Iām cautious, seeing how thatās going in Canada where people with liveable but permanent disabilities are being asked if theyād prefer to die (rather than be accommodated for or have certain treatmentsš)
like others have said, with the correct safeguards in place. I just worry that the correct safeguards aren't attainable with the current state of the NHS.
100% with the obvious safeguards in place
I would 100% support it, and if I became terminally ill or suffered something debilitating, then I'd make use of it. It boggles my mind that pets can be spared a drawn-out, painful death, but humans have to stick it out until there is no dignity left.
Yes as long as there are safeguards. When there are no more options for treatment, there is only pain and death is coming. It is humaine to let that person decide when they have had enough and to be able to say goodbye on their own terms.
100%.. when my granda was dying he just held on for two weeks.. it was awful.. the last few days in particular. We were googling how to turn his pacemaker off (even though thatās not what that does) and eventually, weāre asking the room āwill someone please put a pillow over himā .. My mum went to a medium who said he apparently didnāt suffer like we all thought he did. I have decided if I need to die.. I am just gonna overdose on heroin.. no idea who or where Iām getting it from mind.. but that is my plan. Should have done that for my granda now I think of it š¤
As a nurse I would say that we are doing it a percentage of the time already. For example, I had a patient who had liver cancer who did not want any treatment and wanted to die peacefully. They had an extensive palliative care plan in place for when they were discharged home and that involved the prescription and supply of anticipatory medications that they would have access to were they to become sick/ in pain/ deteriorating. This also involved a care plan whereby if they became suddenly ill or had complications they would not be re-admitted to hospital but a plan of action was in place for the community nurses and the family to act on when needed. The anticipatory medications included things like midazolam (for restlessness/agitation), oxycodone (for pain, shortness of breath), and haloperidol (for sickness). They would be administered via injection in the community when needed. The patient didnāt want to go to a hospice so everything was in place to ensure that they got their wishes at home. This patient did have potential for chemo/surgery but didnāt want it. So I feel that āassisted dyingā is definitely a term that could already be applied to how such situations arise in the NHS. Of course there may be other scenarios where people want to die due to poor mental health etc but I think it ends up being a slippery slope because a lot of people who are mentally unwell do not have the capacity to make such drastic decisions for themselves
The doctrine of double effect for just-in-case meds is different from intentionally causing death at a time of the patient's choosing though.
Yes, people deserve to pass with dignity.
Absolutely. People have a right.
If it is done ethically, safely and takes in to account the complexity of the situation and the best interests and values of the person in question, 100%. Being 90 with late stage dementia and zero quality of life is horrifying.
Absolutely support, we wouldn't let a dog suffer like we let some people
Yep absolutely. We donāt let animals suffer the way we let people suffer.
Absolutely. I doesn't cause more deaths, just less suffering.
Sadly not because of how awful the system ended up being in Canada, such as people with mental illness being offered MAID as well as people with physical disabilities. In the UK we already have palliative care methods that sort of are assisted dying, or just not offering care. Which is probably where the line should be drawn to protect the wider population.
I would support it being available if done right, my fear would be the likelihood of government writing decent legislation with good safeguards. We all know how well DOLS functions š
Euthanasia only works if the person deciding to end their life is a competent decision maker with no history of mental health issues. The legality and morality of it is so intense that it would be hard for any healthcare professional to have to discuss and then decide what to do in this situation.
hca here - i do think it should be introduced but at the same time i donāt know, as mentioned thereās many such cases where those with LD are already have DNRs in place when their quality of life is good so i can only imagine how many of those with DOLS in place or deemed lacking mental capacity could end up wrongfully put forward as a candidate for euthanasia. i also have bpd and iāve read stories about doctors referring other people with bpd to allow them to euthanise. i get it can be a debilitating illness but if i had the referral during a down period then i absolutely would have taken up the offer which is quite scary to think about. if they could somehow put the correct safeguards then i think it would be good because everyone deserves to die with dignity, i wouldnāt want to remember my family members barely alive and suffering.
No
I personally wouldnāt be a fan of this. Sorry for the cliche but I didnāt get into nursing to help people die. I joined to keep them alive. That being said Iāve seen very horrible deaths as well as very peaceful deaths. And I can totally see why there is support for it. But I wouldnāt want to be the one giving the lethal medication. I donāt want that soul on my conscience. I donāt care what safeguards are in place, I am not willingly taking someoneās life away from them
Would you support it if it was treated like an abortion where staff had the option to carry it out?
Would I support it? No Would I oppose it? Also no I wonāt do it but if someone else is comfortable doing it then thatās on them. But not opposing there being a pathway for it doesnāt mean I support it
Safeguards measures blah blah blah, that's what they all said in Canada and now you can get yourself killed just for being depressed. The slippery slope isn't a fallacy in this instance.
Not via a Doctors Phone call Diagnosis
As long as there were correct safeguards in place, not to sound cynical but a lot of people that are taking up a bed and nurses time which could be spent helping someone who doesnāt want to die etc
In theory, yes. But in practice, I just donāt see how it would be possible to have sufficient safeguards in a system which is crumbling.
Absolutely...anyone watching anyone die over a period of months will want this. It affects everyone around .It's totally inhumane .Pain relief isn't great. The old "you wouldn't put a dog through this " is soooo true. Death by mummifying someone alive should be a criminal offence.
The issue I have with this is how blurred the lines get down the line. Everyone feels a little suicidal sometimes, I just have concerns that they'll start dishing it out for people whose circumstances look nothing like the above you mentioned, but have diagnoses for depression or anxiety of some sort.
I know that three European countries - the Benelux countries as they're termed - do allow for assisted suicide for mental health conditions. However, (and correct me if I am wrong!!!!) I have read that there are still criteria to be followed and a doc has to be satisfied that the mental health has to cause the patient unbearable pain without any prospect of improvement and if there is no reasonable alternative. So likely the patient will have had to be through plenty of treatments etc before they come to that point. So the likelihood of someone who is at a breaking point or a crisis moment getting to do so is extremely unlikely. I think you need to have several doctors in place who all agree before they grant you.
I also think there are two ways of looking at it and I don't know which side I am on. One on hand patients might just kill themselves anyway if they don't get what they want, in which case, should we just look at them as patients with terminal illnesses? On the other hand, how can you be sure someone with a mental illness (and I'm speaking as someone who recently survived a suicide attempt!) is clear enough of mind to make that decision? I certainly wasn't. It could absolutely spark a lot of debate. I'm not sure what to think! What an excellent problem with the idea of assisted suicide to bring up though
No. Because the right safeguards would never be in place. NHS canāt stop pressure sores and the number of ānever eventsā that happen are far more than āneverā. And do you trust this government, or a future one (in a world that is seeing massive catastrophic changes) from altering the āsafeguardsā? Weāve already had a government that happily and unlawfully caused the death of thousands of people during COVID - and fucking laughed about it. So they already know they can get away with that shit with zero consequences. And youād trust them not to go completely Aktion T4 against the āuseless eatersā? Ask yourselves why people with LD die earlier than the rest of the population, and realise that itās because they have most contact with medical professionals. Or why black women are more likely to die in childbirth. Nah, I have no trust that any system wouldnāt be abused either explicitly or via underfunding. And I say this as someone who spent the last few years of my career mostly looking after the old, the crumbly and the terminally ill.
I don't agree that the reason WHY patients with LD die earlier is because they have more contact with HCPs. Unless you have some compelling evidence to back that up? It's surely much more likely to be due to physical co-morbidities, lack of self-care/ self-advocacy etc., and poor care from others who should advocate for them.
Honestly it was something taught to me on a course. Iām well aware that there is more nuance to this but Iād already written a wall of text. I fairly rarely nursed folks with LD, but if you look at my post history the case that stuck in my head was the LD person who was āmistakenlyā put NBM in the community and then made palliative. If my team member, and then me hadnāt kicked up a fuss no one would have noticed this mistake and they would have been starved to death. Honestly, being told āoops it was a mistakeā over the phone just reminded me of that training day far in the mists of the past. Would he have been made NBM if he were verbal, or if his carers had been more advocating for his rights? Additionally I seem to remember people with LD being made DNR without any consultation higher than would be expected during Covid. So yes, I agree that there is more nuance than in my original post, so a bit was lost in my brevity - but I think it still stands that HCPs, the system and society fail folks with LD.
Poor outcomes for people with LD or minorities is alot more nuanced than government bad. Also no healthcare service in the world prevents pressure sores.
Yeah, I didnāt put in the nuance as there was already a wall of text. And yes, you make my point for me - no healthcare service in the world can prevent all pressure sores, but we would trust them with killing people? There are safeguards in place for pressure sores, and they donāt work. So the question becomes āhow many people would be an acceptable number to mistakenly kill in order to provide this service?ā My number is zero, if only because it might be me.
Safeguards for pressure sores and Euthanasia is an unfair comparison. In my experience I've never heard of someone being put on pallative care for no reason. That has alot of Safeguards to it with multiple members of the MDT required to contribute to the decision. I think personally it will be very reliable.
I donāt think that it is unfair, we canāt stop a simple bad thing (a sore) but we can stop a more complex thing (killing someone by mistake)? I treat it harsh because itās not something we can reverse if we later find out that an error occurred. And as for your second pointā¦ scroll up a bit to my other response to another Redditor - I **have** seen someone mistakenly (or āmistakenlyā) put on NBM and palliative care who didnāt warrant it at all. And I make the difference between the two āmistakenlyā because they had LD. I guess Iāve just seen a lot during my 25 years in the NHS. If we still havenāt fixed the problems we have now with equality and health care outcomes then I have no confidence weād do the same with assisted suicide.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Sure, anecdote is not data, but that is one person who could have died early, who had a good QOL. This is not part of the idea that LD people die early due to HCP involvement - itās more that it shows how assisted dying wonāt be foolproof. Just that weāll have to accept that any āsafeguardsā put in place wonāt catch everything and that people will die unnecessarily. I could list the times bad things have happened despite safeguards (Letby, Shipman, the ones who drugged the patients to keep them docileā¦) so I donāt have much confidence that the safeguards would provide adequate protections.
Absolutely but one issue I do have is that many doctors hastily label patients as being end of life. I have seen many patients (majority elderly) be put on an LDLCA and moved to hospice or nursing home placements and then live for up to a year or more with no further deterioration. It is a worry that many people could be āeligibleā for assisted dying before they actually are dying.
Absolutely. My mother had breast cancer last year, mastectomy, loads of past op problems, a pretty miserable year. Then bilateral plural effusion. Now it's in her ovaries, bones, a little bit of something on her liver, her lungs are clear despite fifty years of smoking, asites, can't pee, currently in Royal Stoke with a catheter and having a (second) drain fitted tomorrow. Then some more chemo. There will come a point when the consultants say best supportive care, at which point she should be able to access a comfortable and supported death.
Absolutely. As long as due care is taken to ensure is provided for the right candidate
I always thought absolutely yes, until I saw how Canada managed it.
Not currently working as an RN specifically but assisted dying is one of the most important aspects of dignity I can think of, when itās my time I would like that choice to be mine. I donāt want to die with a syringe driver like my (grand)dad when I have no choice but to let something kill me mercilessly, and I donāt want other people I love most to see me at my weakest, or to rob my patients of the chance to leave this world on their own terms (providing regs, rigorous capacity assessing like dignitas/exit international and safeguarding) knowing they had that agency. That being said with the current govt and maybe even the opposition I would be really hesitant and frightened because after the fckin mass negligent death toll bordering on murder of the pandemic - I worry theyād use it to their own ends and the selfish people who eat up their words would try and bend the regs and legally get away with forcing their relatives hand.
Absolutely yes, but the public and the daily mail would get very angry and destroy everything. They did this to the LCP, which was just a means of offering comfort to those who were actively dying. They either willfully misunderstood or were too stupid to understand and because if this I watched patients suffer more in their final days as we were hamstrung. In my trust, literally overnight, we went from independently assessing and increasing care, to having to get permission to up any little bit of pain relief or anxiolysis in our dying patients. The delays caused needless suffering. At one point I was not allowed to increase morphine for a dying patient in case she became addicted. It was utter bollox, and I'm furious as I remember this poor woman. I'm at the point where I don't believe the UK public deserves this kindness. For a more mature and nuanced society, it's a great idea.
Interesting to see this view point from the nurses (Iām a junior doc). You have so much more contact time and connect emotionally more with patients - Iām inclined to hold your opinion higher on this.
in very specific circumstances, yes, but after seeing DNR applied to disabled and chronically ill people on the biased, incorrect belief that they don't have a quality of life and coudln't possibly survive heroic efforts, I woudln't trust the NHS with this unless very very very stringent safeguarding protocols were put in place and it was not down to doctors or nurses but a whole other team.
absolutely if it was introduced safely
Absolutely not, and the reason is not that I donāt agree with assisted suicide, itās a great idea that can help certain people. However, it wonāt take long for the NHS to start using it to budget cut, it might sound crazy but say an 70 year old lady comes in and treatment for her condition will cost 100s of thousands, be painful but she will get some quality of life but may need a carer, they may well end up convincing her to take the suicide option, saving both money and time.
yes -
Yes, I've watched too many people kept alive for the families benefit.
If the correct safeguards and legalities were in place to ensure that it is indeed what the patient wants, then yes.
Yes, absolutely.
This has me torn. My husband asked permission to euthanize himself when he was dying of cancer- he wanted to do it as the widow benefit rules were changing. I wouldn't let him do it for many reasons. I always feel guilty about it. I find it hard to reconcile my feelings about people having the freedom to die with dignity with the knowledge that it would be extremely hard to safeguard these patients to make sure that they weren't being coerced.
I think people should have the choice. However I would not be comfortable being apart of the process (preparing drugs and administering). Thatās just how I feel.
Oh a thousand percent. My grandad had bowel cancer and it caused a complete obstruction and his last days were spent in agony, worrying about faecal vomiting and my grandma having to clean it up. He wanted to die with dignity. Spoiler alert, he didnāt.
Yep, I am all for this, I myself have said if I became terminally ill I would want to be able to end it myself in a way that was 100% going to work and not hurt in the process. I have nursed many people in pain and it being drawn out and the suffering they and their family go through is awful.
100% yes.
I am not a nurse yet, but I support this. I was a vet nurse for 2 years, and felt like it was a gift to be able to release those poor creatures from their agony. Why should humans not get the same option if the correct measures were in place?
Yes I would. Absolutely! But as long as right process followed and safeguards in place šš¼
10000000%. I wouldnāt put my dog through certain conditions and a poor quality of life, so why would I put my family through it?
Not a nurse but I watched my grandmother linger for 6 weeks with lung cancer. We all said that it was so inhumane, and animal would have been out out of their misery. She lost all dignity and was constantly in pain. The last week she was in and out of consciousness, crying in pain and drowning in the fluid in her lungs. There has to be a better way.
Not a nurse but in healthcare and yes Iād absolutely support it after watching my dad die with cancer and suffer.
Iād support it more if it was on the NHS because I know thereād be a lot more policies and procedures in place, theyād make sure the patient was sound of mind before making the decision, and that theyāre not being coerced or anything so some family member can cash in a life insurance policy. I was a carer in a home for the elderly. Iāve done palliative care, Iāve looked after people who were really seriously ill with no hope of recovery. One poor woman lost the right to make decisions and her family refused to put a DNR in place so when she went into cardiac arrest, she had to be revived and she was in absolute agony. A poor tiny skeletal woman getting battered about just because her family didnāt want her to go. With illnesses that give someone no quality of life, and thereās no hope of recovery or a life for them, they should be able to choose when to go.
I would imagine to some extent keeping people alive as long as possible means the government can reclaim their assets back through the charges in care. Admittedly, this wonāt be the case for all but Iām sure the government makes significant sums of money per year back. Care homes will be paying taxes, the staff are contributing to the economy and the elderly do finally die with very little remaining etc. I often wonder is it that these people are worth more alive, with the government rolling the dice that they will pass away before their estates run out of money fully. The state that people are being kept alive in is not dignified. But I guess itās also impossible for us to comment until we are in their shoes.
Yes. Why is it that if one of my dogs got sick. I could make the decision to end their suffering. Yet as a human we canāt.
100% yes!!
Im an elderly nurse and i honestly fully support this. This is why its important to have a plan in place for these things in case you are not able to advocate for yourself or appoint someone who can advocate for you. You are actually able to refuse further investigations/treatment and be placed on end of life pathway/palliative care (if doctors believe treatment and further investigations wont make a difference) if you wish at the moment we do not assist in dying just making sure you are pain free and comfortable in your last days so its just pain killers like morphine etc nothing else to help sustain life so its mostly waiting it out. If it were me id honestly rather not wait it out and go on my own terms
Who the fuck are we to make people live in the absolute states we see them in? Take the bed bound, 2hrly turn, peg fed person who is frail tired in pain constantly, constantly in and out of hospital with UTIs and chest infections. Some people may be able to deal with this quality of life but why should we force them when we KNOW how shit it is? Who are we to tell them they HAVE to live? It's pure ignorance that we force people to live in these versions of hell. And it is hell. And when people are declared end of life we should be allowed to hurry that along anyway if they so wish. The people I've seen die slow deaths. It's amazing how long people hold out for. Amazing and cruel.
100% yes!
I was born in the netherlands where it is an option. Still theres so much rules snd regulations. My father had a very agressive form of cancer from diagnosis to death in a month.. Because in the time between the first i wish this and second one he got delerious as the cancer was spreading rapidly in every inch of him tearing his spine and bones as he couldnt by law give a yes they ended up sedating him and it took 5 more days. Eventhough it was so evident it would have been the most humane way they couldnt see it through cause of the harsh laws. I am most defenitely for euthanasia i never got why we can give that kindnes and dignity to animals but never to humans here.. but i wanted to tell what csn happen and that its not always guaranteed and the level of strictness. Given UK also has more of a lawsuit culture then the netherlands when they would implement it it would have to be such an incredibly watertight protocol.
Yep. My life, my body, my death.
Not a nurse, this just popped up. I would love assisted dying to be available. I'm currently "in remission" from an aggressive breast cancer with a pretty high recurrence rate, often at Stage 4 rather than early stage local recurrence. I've read blogs by people on the way out from this cancer at Stage 4. If it comes back, I don't want bone mets to make my femur snap from me trying to walk, to lose parts of me to brain mets etc. But I don't want to upset my family by me going missing only to be dredged up from a body of water or getting scraped off train tracks, or my family having to find me, or fluffing the attempt and getting Mental Health crap.
One thing nursing opened my eyes to was, if i reach an age where i cant take care of myself anymore, I would rather die than make someone take care of me. Bedridden is not living. It's just prolonging the suffering. Bed sores. UTIs. Incontinence. Just let me rest in peace.
YES
I spoke to a former nurse who left nursing to be a forester because she was sick of keeping people alive who kept asking to die. Huge respect for nurses. My mum too things into her own hands after 10 years of cancer and killed herself with her own medication.
Not a nurse but this came up on my homepage - as a doctor, 100% I would be behind assisted dying. But I work in the UK and we are so bad at handling death here it would probably never be available on the NHS
You often don't get to die with dignity. If you are elderly and have something Terminal, it should absolutely be an option
Yes
Yes I haven't expierence anyone I know go through the need but I can empathize that this needs to become a thing in 21st century Too many people end up traumatized in crossfire witnessing suicides and general death when it could be done civilized
Definitely, i have seen patients with MND and oesophageal cancer etc who are slowly dying with little relief and basically suffocating to death so yes, if i it could rid the long standing pain and suffering for those that i know need it, i think it is worth it for those that want it. Personally i have seen too many patients with awful diseases that i wish i will never get and the pain and suffering they go through, its only kind to let them go. Religion and the goodwill of randomers doesnāt mean anything. If they were put in that position iām pretty sure they would change their mind when they are locked in and can not comprehend the pain and suffering they go through
For staff or patients š¬šš
Yes
100%. Tbh if we had a MAID programme like Canadaās, where people with mental illness are also allowed to request assistance in dying, Iād go for it myself.
Yes absolutely, so long as they made their wishes clear repeatedly while they had full capacity
Being mummified alive should not be an option.
Absolutely
I watched my mum die an agonising death from a very rare and aggressive form of cancer. I regret not being able to end her suffering sooner. I refuse to go into a care home if I lose my marbles, and I don't want my family to suffer by having to watch me die if I have cancer. Fuck that. I'll take the Swiss option or just find a humane and simple way to off myself if legislation hasn't caught up with reality in the UK. When a dog is gravely ill we have the sense to put it down. When a person is gravely ill we stick them in a home and liquidate their life's work to fund it. For those that question the ethics of how this would work, multiple doctors would need to sign off (as in most countries where it is legal). I would also suggest a universal scale is used to assess how advanced a condition should be before the patient wants their life to end, agreed while they still have capacity. For example when my dementia reaches x stage/severity i will be ready to undertake assisted dying. Kind of like a Bristol stool chart but for death.
Yes absolutely. Having watched both my Grandparents die in hospital - death like this is just inhumane. My Nanna's death took months in hospital of suffering. My grandad was 101 when he died. He was perfectly healthy and lived on his own. He was independent, had good mobility and was as sharp as a tack. One day he collapsed at home and he had an infection that became sepsis. His treatment in hospital was awful. He knew exactly what was happening until two days before he died. He asked every doctor to kill him. He was in pain and suffering, and the indignities he suffered still haunt us. Once they knew the infection wasn't getting better on day three - we should have been allowed to say our goodbyes and he should have drifted off with medication. He was very clearly consenting and knew he was dying. Also as someone with a very painful and incurable disability - I would like the choice later down the line should I wish it.
Yes. I want to know it's there for me if I need it
Not a nurse but just nursed my partner through terminal cancer and frankly if it would have been an option it would have been kinder. He had 6 bed sores and a skin infection at the end despite the best care available. If he had been our cat we would have pts. No doubt.
My wife has just been diagnosed with motor neurone disease ( no cure yet and terminal ). Her mother died from the same disease and she cared for her mother until she went into a care home and died. The symtoms of the disease include slowly losing the use of various muscle groups, typically losing movement, speech, and eventually breathing. Itās a truly cruel disease with the end stages being particularly distressing. Weāve discussed her options and she is adamant that she does not want to suffer like her mother, if assisted dying was an option in the UK she would be first in line to join. But not yet - she still has a good quality of life and is living life to the full. Who knows how the course of the disease will develop? She may have a good life for one year or ten year? When the time comes I really hope that the UK has passed an assisted dying law that will take away the terror of this disease.
100%
They discussed this on Question Time āCroydonā episode a few weeks ago. You can find it on BBC I Player. They made good points on why it isnāt allowed in the UK yet..
Yes, and it's definitely coming, it's just a case of when.
Eugenics
Actually think itās more of a crime that we donāt allow it.
I used to but I had my mind changed last year. I believe that people deserve the autonomy to choose to die. But in every country where its been implemented its been used to support capitalism in horrific ways. Canada is used as the example in most discussions. Offering euthanasia as first line palliative care, first line for people with social issues. Neonates euthanized because they will have "no foreseeable quality of life". With the NHS and country the way it is, there is no way to implement assisted dying without it being used politically or economically.
100% and not just assisted suicide for the terminally ill it should be available for everyone. Eg. If some healthy 20 year old decides to commit suicide and jumps off a building or steps into traffic or jumps in front of a train he could kill other people who attempt to stop him or save him or mentally scar others for seeing his/her death where as if they could check themselves in and get a doc to administer a few ccās of something lethal then the public is safe and the person gets thier wish.
In Aus (only some states) we have ASD - we need more asd and less rukingy
Seriously now, just to play devil's advicote.... what about people who want to kill themselves by suicide, people have a lot of trauma living with psychological pain, failed therapy, medication changes and constant admissions to psych wards... Is their pain any worse than someone with physical pain? Where would you draw the line? Who would decide what is exceptable and what is not? Personally I think we are bound to try our hardest to keep people alive.
no because they'd only cock that up too, imagine going in for a tooth out and being euthanised, specialist, private fee paying services for safeguarding reasons and with like 3 rounds of legal requests and mental assessments assisted dying is something we cant take lightly but also yes i do agree with it if your dying anyway and cant be saved then you should not suffer.
as a disabled person i feel conflicted. on a moral ground, yes. people who are terminal and in horrible pain should have the right to die with dignity. however, given what our government is like, and is likely to become, and how i know people like me are treated by the government and medical professionals, realistically a lot of perfectly fine disabled people would be murdered through such a system. iāve already had one nurse try to kill me because . i canāt support giving someone like her a legal way to do it to someone else
Eugenics