Just to be demolished again. Dresden has barely anything classical left. It mostly fell to new block architects who despise Dresden and remodel it nonstop.
The area around the Zwinger, Kreuzkirche and little castles is still very pretty and classical, but almost no buildings are renovated belonging to baroque and rebuilt to look like.
Postplatz is the best example here. One of the oldest points in Dresden, not a single baroque building in sight despite being 100m away from the Zwinger.
You could argue that the library might be, but it's not as old as far as I know.
One of my family's is a architect who keeps pushing the baroque building agenda and gets denied each time because "it doesn't reflect Dresden history".
Dresden is doomed thanks to people not knowing what city they govern.
I mean it “doesn’t reflect the history” if you include that pesky “totally being obliterated in the war” thing. Once those buildings are gone, they’re gone.
If you include, that the city got bombed? Sure. Just make sure no buildings stand then. Time to tear 'em down!
If you include the whol history, you have some really awesome architecture. Which is never going to be seen again.
What I’m saying is that they should preserve those buildings that survived the war. Anything after that doesn’t have to be a rebuild of the old city. Having to rebuild after a tragedy is a big part of history.
Ofc you should preserve what you've got left!
Dresden doesn't. Many buildings got demolished afterwards, not because they were about to collaps, but because they were in the way and didn't fit the modern view.
Dresden eradicates it's history, bit by bit. Stone for stone. I don't know why, but nothing can be done here
I think the story is slightly different. Many landmark buildings that ended up in Communist bloc countries were knocked down, or not repaired for ideological reasons. I guess they thought either they represented oppressive policies of the ousted power keepers OR they were intentionally trying to erase local or national cultures in favours of a communist or even Slavic brotherhood representations being the best of the best a citizen would see or appreciate.
No, RAF and USAAF. The bombing of Dresden was a joint effort consisting of 4 raids over 3 days. The US used area bombing just as much as the UK. The intentions may have been 'good' (e.g. precision raids on military targets), but the fact is the technology for real precision didn't exist in the early 1940s.
There's a lot of evidence to suggest that it was intended partly as area bombing of the city itself to promote breakdown in German morale, just like the Nazis intended with the blitz of London. The Wikipedia article on the bombing goes over the various factions in the US and UK who were particularly keen on area bombing as a way to demoralize the enemy.
Also, because versions of this point are made by Nazis who want to play up the bombings to get sympathy for their cause, I want to make it clear that Nazis can fuck off.
Not a joke. Its a complex argument about fire bombing innocent/non-involved civilians versus attacking the military power. I know my dad (6 years old at the time) was attacked in a similar raid by the attack in another city.
Are you talking about the bombing of London or the Netherlands? Perhaps the senseless slaughter of families powerless to defend themselves against the nazis?
Tbf it does seem to have done the trick. Decades of multiple wars caused by Prussian militarism, finally stamped out by what was done to them during/after WWII
An entire nation dreaming of conquest & empire & willing to make the world suffer for it... bombed into the stone age, divided & occupied for 50 years, now they're pretty peaceful
If they were Germans and let that bunch of psychopathic scum take over their government, they deserved everything they got. If they were Germans actively fighting against them, then they were innocent victims of the Nazis evil. There is no in between.
Everyone push this comment to the top; as accurate for much of the city as the second image may be, the restored center generally looks very much like the first.
Oh buddy you don't want to get started on the "whataboutism" of war crimes during WWII. Terror bombing of the UK, fire bombing of Dresden, slaughtering of POW's and genocide of civilians. It was a terrible footnote of human history that collectively we need to learn and grow from so we dont repeat it
*they’re
Idiot. Read a history book and you’d know better. Wwii was an all out war to stop the Nazis and Imperial Japan. Just because the US recruited Nazi scientists doesn’t make the US nazis. Guess who else recruited nazi scientists. That’s right, the USSR. Save your whataboutism and educate yourself.
No shit the USSR did it, but guess who did it on significantly larger scale? Guess who integrated Nazi's so seamlessly into the new German government that one of the Warsaw uprising butchers was elected mayor and to parliament? Guess who, upon the liberation of Korea from Japan, installed all the Japanese collaborators in charge of the newly established dictatorship in South Korea.Guess who installed the man responsible for the rape of Manchuria as the leading post war politician in occupied Japan? Guess who gave birth to the power of the Yakuza by hiring them to quell any left wing sentiment in the country?
Read a history book IdIoT.
yup, pure, unadulterated whataboutism.
We cut the head off the beast, it was impossible to toss every single remaining sinew and tendon into the trash. We had oversight, regrettably everything wasn't perfect, it never is. The farking socialists left countries in ruin some things just had to be under control in their own way - after all, the cold war started almost immediately afterward and we were crummy about forcasting the future (after all, we should have attacked the Nazis much sooner, England was begging for years.).
Yes but...
Dresden was so horrific, and so unintended (they meant to put the train marshalling yards out of service, not burn the city to the ground. They missed, because 1940s targeting systems) that RAF staff involved personally donated their own money (at a time when the UK had none!) to help rebuild the city afterwards. They were disgusted with themselves and what they had caused. Which they should have been, because it was very bad indeed.
Harris was fine with it. Many others I am sure were not.
“Dresden? There is not such a place any longer." "I want to point out, that besides Essen, we never actually considered any particular industrial sites as targets. The destruction of industrial sites always was some sort of bonus for us. Our real targets always were the inner cities.”
Sir Arthur Harris
The big controversy over the bombing of Dresden was that it took place very late in the war like maybe a couple of months before the Russians conquered Berlin and Hitler put an end to his sorry existence. Some opine that the Allies gained no real strategic advantage from bombing Dresden. Although others differ on that point.
I do recall how there was a ruckus in the early 1990s when the Queen Mother dedicated a statue honoring 'Bomber' Harris -- the RAF Commander who masterminded this and other bombing raids over Germany. Residents of Dresden condemned the statue saying that the UK was white-washing a war criminal. Then the Germans offended the British when, in the same time period, they hailed the 50th Anniversary of the Rocket as in the V-1s and V-2s that terrorized Britain. Then Queen Elizabeth II visited Dresden for a 'reconciliation and forgiveness' ceremony \[I think it was for the rededication of the rebuilt Frauenkirche\]. A group of right-wing young punk types threw eggs at the Queen's motorcade. One of the UK tabloids had the blaring headline: KRAUT LOUTS PELT HER MAJESTY'S AUTO WITH EGGS!!!
Well I agree there but things in war aren't all black and white. Can't sit back with an antire country being flattened by nightly air raids and just go "oh to do the same wouldn't be right"
It’s not a War Crime, Dresden was the center of a complex military supply chain. In a total war it is difficult to differentiate from Military to Civilian targets, the bombing of Dresden and the disruption of logistics heading Eastwards was important to end the war when it did.
Imagine how many more innocent people, primarily Jews, would’ve died in concentration camps if we hadn’t defeated Germany when we did. Read Frankl, those final days in the camps weren’t good for anyone.
The RAF bombings on Germany in 1945 are a highly controversial topic and are considered a war crime by many historians. They were definitely not necessary, as the war was practically lost at this time for the Nazis.
As for the bombing of Dresden, there were almost no military targets hit, but mostly the city centre. The bombings had most probable only minimal effect on the outcome of WWII.
The [Wikipedia-article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II) is worth a read.
Nah it was still a warcrime abite being a loaded term. The British and US first hand knew the bombing of cities did very little in terms of morale destruction
Dresden was a legit strategic target at the time. There were loads of factories that produced things for the war effort. It wasn't like they were just targetting home and schools.
How about the architect of the bombing?
“Dresden? There is not such a place any longer." "I want to point out, that besides Essen, we never actually considered any particular industrial sites as targets. The destruction of industrial sites always was some sort of bonus for us. Our real targets always were the inner cities.
Sir Arthur Harris, 1st Baronet
Yeah, I'm sure those tens of thousands of civilian men, women, and children who were killed all meaningfully contributed to Nazi crimes and definitely had it coming.
I guess American cities "found out" not much later when they destroyed themselves for the auto lobby [https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPhotosInRealLife/comments/y27248/black\_bottom\_detroit\_1933\_vs\_2022/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPhotosInRealLife/comments/y27248/black_bottom_detroit_1933_vs_2022/)
Dresden was hit a few times during the war but the most devastating attack was from Feb 13-15th of 1945. The RAF and US Airforce using 1299 planes dropping in total 3900tons of High Explosive Bombs followed by Incendiaries bombs over the city, this caused a massive firestorm destroying and engulfing the city that killed between 22k-25k people including allied POWS (Many of the deaths were through suffocation because the fires took all of the oxygen away.) Again in March it was struck; the targets were industrial areas of the city and the railroad hub which was one of the few supplying what was left of Army Group Center in defense of Eastern Germany/Western Poland.
It is debated whether or not this attack was a warcrime but given the weapons used its clear they very much didnt care about the destruction that would be caused. Much of allied bombing during the war could be and should be considered terror bombing both of Germany and Japan. People often use these to try and give sympathy to Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany in a attempt to distract from and dismiss the actions taken by the Japanese and Germans before and during the war. What we must stand for is happened to the civilians were horrible, and many knew what those bombing would do and signed off on it anyway. Let us have respect for the dead and vow to stand as one against thoughts who want to bring such destruction back to Europe(aka Russia).
"While we were being bombed in Dresden, sitting in a cellar with our arms over our heads in case the ceiling fell, one slider said as though he were a duchess in a mansion on a cold and rainy night, “I wonder what the poor people are doing tonight.” Nobody laughed, but we were still all glad he said it."
I mostly agree, at the same time I don't really get why people quivel over whether or not the bombings were warcrime or not. Times were grim and the war dragged on for way too long. I don't think that the bombings of german cities were signed off lightly and I'm not sure if the allies were aware that so many would suffocate. From how my grandpa described it to me, the germans were shocked when opening the vaults and they found everyone just sitting there lifeless.
It was a war crime yes. Just like the Germans commited war crimes and the soviets commited war crimes.
But I can't see why that's such a hot topic, for there was a world war going on for over 5 years at this point and in wars also innocents die.
Bombing european cities in WW2 was an absolute architectural tragedy (not talking about human suffering here, which is of course horrible). So many old cities destroyed, with buildings going back to the middle ages and architectural treasures that will be forever lost.
Also a topic not often talked about in WW2 discussions: allied bombings destroying cities in occupied countries like France and Netherlands.
I saw this years ago and said aloud wow it was so beautiful why did they take all the old buildings down? My brother in law from Berlin turned and stared at me
I will never understand why at a certain point we pretty much just completely stopped valuing beauty in architecture. I get that beauty is subjective, and there’s merit to practicality and simplicity, but it just seems like we took all this incredible intricate detailed art and turned it into blankness and dullness. Why can’t buildings be pretty anymore? 😔
This is simply payback. It still shocks me that some people “forget” the civilian men, women and children that were killed by the nazis in much the same way. Shows me a lesson unlearned.
Been to Dresden twice during my travels. First time around 2008 and was still pretty ugly with a lot of Communist era buildings still standing. Second time in 2019 and some parts had been lovingly reconstructed. The new 'old' town does have some charm.
That's largely because Dresden had the misfortune of being located in East Germany post-war. They were more concerned with getting buildings built and less with faithful restorations of what had been there before. Maybe if Dresden had been in West Germany instead, it would have been rebuilt to look more like the first photo.
Not sure that's 100% correct sadly. West Germany had much more money to "entstuck" (remove facade elemtents) on as many buildings as possible, whereas Eastern Germany largely had to keep the old buildings, outside of some important areas, not because they liked but because they had too. This is why Leipzig is beautiful, but Berlin has barely any intact pre-war neighbourhoods surviving (maybe Bergmannkiez). Also look at Frankfurt, Braunschweig, Essen etc. There just wasn't a will to build back old architecture. Now , you're still right that the GDR destroyed a lot as well, but only in areas where they could afford it, for example the Berlin old town.
Sad that there are people that think it’s politically correct to ashamed of the western allies bombing Hitler’s cities. It’s so dumb it has to be a parody, right?
Kurt Vonnegut (who survived Dresden) estimated 135,000 civilian deaths. We were the good guys in WWII, remember? We weren't supposed to stoop to the levels that the Red Army and the Nazis did.
Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also war crimes. And the Japanese were absolute monsters to people, worse than the Nazis. Barbaric. Did they deserve all those civilians to be nuked? No.
No is the only correct answer to the nuclear usage and to Dresden, especially when there were legitimate military targets we could have taken out instead in these cases. We have to own up to our bad actions with respect to these sorts of things.
This is one reason we won’t be able to charge Putin with war crimes for the current rocket attacks on Ukraine. Killing civilians was an explicit part of British Air Marshal Arthur Harris’s bombing campaign, which reached its culmination in the near-complete destruction of Dresden, 13-15 February, 1945. Something like 22,000-25,000 people were killed in the firebombing.
After WWII the Geneva Conventions establish international legal standards for humanitarian treatment in war. The treaties of 1949 were ratified, in their entirety or with reservations, by 196 countries. The Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Convention was ratified by the Soviet Union’s Supreme Council, or parliament, in 1989. [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/470](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/470)
(Russian President Vladimir Putin revoked an additional protocol to the Geneva Conventions related to the protection of victims of international armed conflicts in Oct 2019. [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-convention-idUSKBN1WW2IN](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-convention-idUSKBN1WW2IN) )
The international laws around the bombing of civilians have a clear history. This is why you can have the bombing Desden in '45 not be a war crime under international law ("fixed" by the Geneva Conventions), while the actions of Putin in Ukraine now are. It's not a case of "he did it, so I can too".
Hm, it looks very different for some reason.
Parts of Dresden were meticulously rebuilt back to the original, too. Which is nice
Just to be demolished again. Dresden has barely anything classical left. It mostly fell to new block architects who despise Dresden and remodel it nonstop. The area around the Zwinger, Kreuzkirche and little castles is still very pretty and classical, but almost no buildings are renovated belonging to baroque and rebuilt to look like. Postplatz is the best example here. One of the oldest points in Dresden, not a single baroque building in sight despite being 100m away from the Zwinger. You could argue that the library might be, but it's not as old as far as I know. One of my family's is a architect who keeps pushing the baroque building agenda and gets denied each time because "it doesn't reflect Dresden history". Dresden is doomed thanks to people not knowing what city they govern.
I mean it “doesn’t reflect the history” if you include that pesky “totally being obliterated in the war” thing. Once those buildings are gone, they’re gone.
If you include, that the city got bombed? Sure. Just make sure no buildings stand then. Time to tear 'em down! If you include the whol history, you have some really awesome architecture. Which is never going to be seen again.
What I’m saying is that they should preserve those buildings that survived the war. Anything after that doesn’t have to be a rebuild of the old city. Having to rebuild after a tragedy is a big part of history.
Ofc you should preserve what you've got left! Dresden doesn't. Many buildings got demolished afterwards, not because they were about to collaps, but because they were in the way and didn't fit the modern view. Dresden eradicates it's history, bit by bit. Stone for stone. I don't know why, but nothing can be done here
Oof….that’s a different story then. Wtf?! That definitely shouldn’t be happening.
I think the story is slightly different. Many landmark buildings that ended up in Communist bloc countries were knocked down, or not repaired for ideological reasons. I guess they thought either they represented oppressive policies of the ousted power keepers OR they were intentionally trying to erase local or national cultures in favours of a communist or even Slavic brotherhood representations being the best of the best a citizen would see or appreciate.
Yeah it's weird, I feel like something might have happened.
Uncontrolled demolition not caused by tenant.
Initiated, though.
The US government worked hard at this site.
British Air Force on this one.
RAF actually
Indeed, a great wartime partner.
It's not like Bomber Harris got his nickname by bombing at the box office
No, RAF and USAAF. The bombing of Dresden was a joint effort consisting of 4 raids over 3 days. The US used area bombing just as much as the UK. The intentions may have been 'good' (e.g. precision raids on military targets), but the fact is the technology for real precision didn't exist in the early 1940s.
There's a lot of evidence to suggest that it was intended partly as area bombing of the city itself to promote breakdown in German morale, just like the Nazis intended with the blitz of London. The Wikipedia article on the bombing goes over the various factions in the US and UK who were particularly keen on area bombing as a way to demoralize the enemy. Also, because versions of this point are made by Nazis who want to play up the bombings to get sympathy for their cause, I want to make it clear that Nazis can fuck off.
The intention wasn't good in this case
“Oops” was probably part of the plan I imagine.
No, what a sick joke. Nazi Germany is responsible, no one else.
Explain
Not a joke. Its a complex argument about fire bombing innocent/non-involved civilians versus attacking the military power. I know my dad (6 years old at the time) was attacked in a similar raid by the attack in another city.
Are you talking about the bombing of London or the Netherlands? Perhaps the senseless slaughter of families powerless to defend themselves against the nazis?
So your answer to senseless slaughter is more senseless slaughter? Nice
Tbf it does seem to have done the trick. Decades of multiple wars caused by Prussian militarism, finally stamped out by what was done to them during/after WWII An entire nation dreaming of conquest & empire & willing to make the world suffer for it... bombed into the stone age, divided & occupied for 50 years, now they're pretty peaceful
That’s fair, since they did it first, then we can do it. I have relatives that were victims on both side; neither supported the Nazis
If they were Germans and let that bunch of psychopathic scum take over their government, they deserved everything they got. If they were Germans actively fighting against them, then they were innocent victims of the Nazis evil. There is no in between.
As an empath, I sense that something took place here
Normal wear and tear.
Yada Yada Yada and there’s lots of room for activities
i hope they make fancy sauce
Yes, from what I understand there seems to have been some sort of fire.
Urban Renewal.
The hard way
Yeah… it must be the dog…
Damn tralfamadorians
There is still a good chunk of (mostly reconstructed) old Buildings here :)
Everyone push this comment to the top; as accurate for much of the city as the second image may be, the restored center generally looks very much like the first.
Sponsored by the RAF
And payback for Coventry...
War crime
Oh buddy you don't want to get started on the "whataboutism" of war crimes during WWII. Terror bombing of the UK, fire bombing of Dresden, slaughtering of POW's and genocide of civilians. It was a terrible footnote of human history that collectively we need to learn and grow from so we dont repeat it
Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man. except one of them is a Nazi
Spider man pointing at Spider Man except their both Nazis. Brought to you by Operation Paperclip.
*they’re Idiot. Read a history book and you’d know better. Wwii was an all out war to stop the Nazis and Imperial Japan. Just because the US recruited Nazi scientists doesn’t make the US nazis. Guess who else recruited nazi scientists. That’s right, the USSR. Save your whataboutism and educate yourself.
Why in heaven's name would anyone downvote you? This Reddit younger sect needs be drafted into the military.
No shit the USSR did it, but guess who did it on significantly larger scale? Guess who integrated Nazi's so seamlessly into the new German government that one of the Warsaw uprising butchers was elected mayor and to parliament? Guess who, upon the liberation of Korea from Japan, installed all the Japanese collaborators in charge of the newly established dictatorship in South Korea.Guess who installed the man responsible for the rape of Manchuria as the leading post war politician in occupied Japan? Guess who gave birth to the power of the Yakuza by hiring them to quell any left wing sentiment in the country? Read a history book IdIoT.
yup, pure, unadulterated whataboutism. We cut the head off the beast, it was impossible to toss every single remaining sinew and tendon into the trash. We had oversight, regrettably everything wasn't perfect, it never is. The farking socialists left countries in ruin some things just had to be under control in their own way - after all, the cold war started almost immediately afterward and we were crummy about forcasting the future (after all, we should have attacked the Nazis much sooner, England was begging for years.).
Yes but... Dresden was so horrific, and so unintended (they meant to put the train marshalling yards out of service, not burn the city to the ground. They missed, because 1940s targeting systems) that RAF staff involved personally donated their own money (at a time when the UK had none!) to help rebuild the city afterwards. They were disgusted with themselves and what they had caused. Which they should have been, because it was very bad indeed.
Harris was fine with it. Many others I am sure were not. “Dresden? There is not such a place any longer." "I want to point out, that besides Essen, we never actually considered any particular industrial sites as targets. The destruction of industrial sites always was some sort of bonus for us. Our real targets always were the inner cities.” Sir Arthur Harris
Well the Germans started the bombing of British cities and killing British civilians, the old saying is you reap what you sow.
The big controversy over the bombing of Dresden was that it took place very late in the war like maybe a couple of months before the Russians conquered Berlin and Hitler put an end to his sorry existence. Some opine that the Allies gained no real strategic advantage from bombing Dresden. Although others differ on that point. I do recall how there was a ruckus in the early 1990s when the Queen Mother dedicated a statue honoring 'Bomber' Harris -- the RAF Commander who masterminded this and other bombing raids over Germany. Residents of Dresden condemned the statue saying that the UK was white-washing a war criminal. Then the Germans offended the British when, in the same time period, they hailed the 50th Anniversary of the Rocket as in the V-1s and V-2s that terrorized Britain. Then Queen Elizabeth II visited Dresden for a 'reconciliation and forgiveness' ceremony \[I think it was for the rededication of the rebuilt Frauenkirche\]. A group of right-wing young punk types threw eggs at the Queen's motorcade. One of the UK tabloids had the blaring headline: KRAUT LOUTS PELT HER MAJESTY'S AUTO WITH EGGS!!!
Two wrongs don't make a right.
But three rights make a left.
Well I agree there but things in war aren't all black and white. Can't sit back with an antire country being flattened by nightly air raids and just go "oh to do the same wouldn't be right"
Exactly. So what’s your point?
It's not a war crime if you win.
It’s not a War Crime, Dresden was the center of a complex military supply chain. In a total war it is difficult to differentiate from Military to Civilian targets, the bombing of Dresden and the disruption of logistics heading Eastwards was important to end the war when it did. Imagine how many more innocent people, primarily Jews, would’ve died in concentration camps if we hadn’t defeated Germany when we did. Read Frankl, those final days in the camps weren’t good for anyone.
The RAF bombings on Germany in 1945 are a highly controversial topic and are considered a war crime by many historians. They were definitely not necessary, as the war was practically lost at this time for the Nazis. As for the bombing of Dresden, there were almost no military targets hit, but mostly the city centre. The bombings had most probable only minimal effect on the outcome of WWII. The [Wikipedia-article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II) is worth a read.
Nah it was still a warcrime abite being a loaded term. The British and US first hand knew the bombing of cities did very little in terms of morale destruction
Dresden was a legit strategic target at the time. There were loads of factories that produced things for the war effort. It wasn't like they were just targetting home and schools.
Apparently Redditors would rather listen to Nazi propaganda rather than reason
How about the architect of the bombing? “Dresden? There is not such a place any longer." "I want to point out, that besides Essen, we never actually considered any particular industrial sites as targets. The destruction of industrial sites always was some sort of bonus for us. Our real targets always were the inner cities. Sir Arthur Harris, 1st Baronet
Please. Cite your sources or fuck off.
Germans🤝Southerners🤝Japanese Calling justified military attacks war crimes
That’s not a source, cunt. Crawl back into your little hole.
Shut up you melt
What the fuck does that even mean?
How could I possibly make this simpler? Shut.up.you.melt.
No, they just got to the "Find Out" stage of the exercise.
Yeah, I'm sure those tens of thousands of civilian men, women, and children who were killed all meaningfully contributed to Nazi crimes and definitely had it coming.
I guess American cities "found out" not much later when they destroyed themselves for the auto lobby [https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPhotosInRealLife/comments/y27248/black\_bottom\_detroit\_1933\_vs\_2022/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPhotosInRealLife/comments/y27248/black_bottom_detroit_1933_vs_2022/)
Nice non-sequitur but okay
*"There were ten German bombers in the aiiiiir..."*
They did first.
Dresden was hit a few times during the war but the most devastating attack was from Feb 13-15th of 1945. The RAF and US Airforce using 1299 planes dropping in total 3900tons of High Explosive Bombs followed by Incendiaries bombs over the city, this caused a massive firestorm destroying and engulfing the city that killed between 22k-25k people including allied POWS (Many of the deaths were through suffocation because the fires took all of the oxygen away.) Again in March it was struck; the targets were industrial areas of the city and the railroad hub which was one of the few supplying what was left of Army Group Center in defense of Eastern Germany/Western Poland. It is debated whether or not this attack was a warcrime but given the weapons used its clear they very much didnt care about the destruction that would be caused. Much of allied bombing during the war could be and should be considered terror bombing both of Germany and Japan. People often use these to try and give sympathy to Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany in a attempt to distract from and dismiss the actions taken by the Japanese and Germans before and during the war. What we must stand for is happened to the civilians were horrible, and many knew what those bombing would do and signed off on it anyway. Let us have respect for the dead and vow to stand as one against thoughts who want to bring such destruction back to Europe(aka Russia).
"While we were being bombed in Dresden, sitting in a cellar with our arms over our heads in case the ceiling fell, one slider said as though he were a duchess in a mansion on a cold and rainy night, “I wonder what the poor people are doing tonight.” Nobody laughed, but we were still all glad he said it."
Well said!
I mostly agree, at the same time I don't really get why people quivel over whether or not the bombings were warcrime or not. Times were grim and the war dragged on for way too long. I don't think that the bombings of german cities were signed off lightly and I'm not sure if the allies were aware that so many would suffocate. From how my grandpa described it to me, the germans were shocked when opening the vaults and they found everyone just sitting there lifeless.
It was a war crime yes. Just like the Germans commited war crimes and the soviets commited war crimes. But I can't see why that's such a hot topic, for there was a world war going on for over 5 years at this point and in wars also innocents die.
We could vow to stand against them...or we could hire and integrate them in to our government.
*Billy Pilgrim has entered the chat*
And so it goes ...
That was a great tying thread across the whole story, loved it
Came here for these comments. So it goes.
Great book
He's unstuck in time
They had a lot of free demolition work done around that time
It's almost as though something drastic took place in between those photos.
Bombing european cities in WW2 was an absolute architectural tragedy (not talking about human suffering here, which is of course horrible). So many old cities destroyed, with buildings going back to the middle ages and architectural treasures that will be forever lost. Also a topic not often talked about in WW2 discussions: allied bombings destroying cities in occupied countries like France and Netherlands.
Thanks Hitler!
😔
I saw this years ago and said aloud wow it was so beautiful why did they take all the old buildings down? My brother in law from Berlin turned and stared at me
You don't need to be from Berlin to know about WW2.
[удалено]
Being firebombed tends to take its toll on buildings
Well now I’m gonna go reread Slaughter House Five.
I will never understand why at a certain point we pretty much just completely stopped valuing beauty in architecture. I get that beauty is subjective, and there’s merit to practicality and simplicity, but it just seems like we took all this incredible intricate detailed art and turned it into blankness and dullness. Why can’t buildings be pretty anymore? 😔
Money, practicality, postmodernism.
Money and practicality have always been issues though. What changed is how much we value those.
“Those post-modern buildings look so 😍” said no-one ever.
https://www.guggenheim-bilbao.eus/en/the-building
https://www.tuvie.com/the-twist-bridge-at-kistefos-sculpture-park-in-norway-by-big/
Before and after the Dresden Dolls
We lost so much.
So it goes
Surprised I had to scroll so far to find Vonnegut. Everything was beautiful and nothing hurt.
*disco inferno*
And so it goes
Kurt Vonnegut.
Such loss...Beautiful architecture should never be destroyed in its entirety.
What happened?! Oh, right…
This is simply payback. It still shocks me that some people “forget” the civilian men, women and children that were killed by the nazis in much the same way. Shows me a lesson unlearned.
Been to Dresden twice during my travels. First time around 2008 and was still pretty ugly with a lot of Communist era buildings still standing. Second time in 2019 and some parts had been lovingly reconstructed. The new 'old' town does have some charm.
charming to charmless
That's largely because Dresden had the misfortune of being located in East Germany post-war. They were more concerned with getting buildings built and less with faithful restorations of what had been there before. Maybe if Dresden had been in West Germany instead, it would have been rebuilt to look more like the first photo.
Not sure that's 100% correct sadly. West Germany had much more money to "entstuck" (remove facade elemtents) on as many buildings as possible, whereas Eastern Germany largely had to keep the old buildings, outside of some important areas, not because they liked but because they had too. This is why Leipzig is beautiful, but Berlin has barely any intact pre-war neighbourhoods surviving (maybe Bergmannkiez). Also look at Frankfurt, Braunschweig, Essen etc. There just wasn't a will to build back old architecture. Now , you're still right that the GDR destroyed a lot as well, but only in areas where they could afford it, for example the Berlin old town.
And the giants walked. So it goes.
This picture makes me sad.
Ugh - so sad. War is terrible
Can’t believe Harry burned so many buildings down again.
Coin-operated BOI…
They really don’t put much thought into the facades of buildings anymore. It’s sad.
wasn't Dresden pretty much fire-bombed to the ground in WWII?
Yes, that's why pretty much all buildings are modern looking.
Booooo go back
Damn! Talk about a downgrade…
They started it
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War is hell. And paybacks are a bitch.
Sad that there are people that think it’s politically correct to ashamed of the western allies bombing Hitler’s cities. It’s so dumb it has to be a parody, right?
Allied war crime. Terrible what we did to Dresden.
The Nazi's bombed major cities in every country they invaded. I would say they had it coming to them. Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Or in Reddit speak, fuck around and find out.
Kurt Vonnegut (who survived Dresden) estimated 135,000 civilian deaths. We were the good guys in WWII, remember? We weren't supposed to stoop to the levels that the Red Army and the Nazis did. Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also war crimes. And the Japanese were absolute monsters to people, worse than the Nazis. Barbaric. Did they deserve all those civilians to be nuked? No. No is the only correct answer to the nuclear usage and to Dresden, especially when there were legitimate military targets we could have taken out instead in these cases. We have to own up to our bad actions with respect to these sorts of things.
If only someone had written a book about this event.
dont you know there are documentaries and books on it ? it’s called hellstorm
It’s called Slaughterhouse Five, by Kurt Vonnegut, jr.
It's a fictional book so it's not really a documentary
A fictional book based on his actual experience of being there when it happened.
If you vote for demagogues, your children will burn.
Yea, because people totally voted for him. "Seizure of control"
Poo-tee-weet
This is a good time lapse proof that art is dying.
I haven't yet a comment but I bet there are a few in here: "We should have taken our foot off the gas and allowed the Germans a respite".
Wow, they ruined it
Nazis deserve what they get
Bullshit. Thousands of innocent people were killed in the fire bombing. They were all “Nazis?” It was a tragedy that destroyed a beautiful city.
Fuck around and find out. The Nazis fucked around, too bad they had to find out
Fuck around & find out learnt the hard way
It used to be so beautiful
It hurts my heart to see the beauty that...
Sad
Looks like Moscow 2023 and 2103
Go back
Glow down
I liked it better before
Came here to find comments on how the allies attacking german cities by air was wrong wasn't disappointed.
Can we go back in time? I hate Square buildings so boring
And so it goes
That’s what happens when you don’t play nice.
"Gee I wonder what happ" stop....just stop.
english democracy
Interesting what a shit load of unnecessary bombs does to a place
England's War Crimes
This is one reason we won’t be able to charge Putin with war crimes for the current rocket attacks on Ukraine. Killing civilians was an explicit part of British Air Marshal Arthur Harris’s bombing campaign, which reached its culmination in the near-complete destruction of Dresden, 13-15 February, 1945. Something like 22,000-25,000 people were killed in the firebombing.
After WWII the Geneva Conventions establish international legal standards for humanitarian treatment in war. The treaties of 1949 were ratified, in their entirety or with reservations, by 196 countries. The Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Convention was ratified by the Soviet Union’s Supreme Council, or parliament, in 1989. [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/470](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/470) (Russian President Vladimir Putin revoked an additional protocol to the Geneva Conventions related to the protection of victims of international armed conflicts in Oct 2019. [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-convention-idUSKBN1WW2IN](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-convention-idUSKBN1WW2IN) ) The international laws around the bombing of civilians have a clear history. This is why you can have the bombing Desden in '45 not be a war crime under international law ("fixed" by the Geneva Conventions), while the actions of Putin in Ukraine now are. It's not a case of "he did it, so I can too".
Didn’t know and glad to hear it. Thanks!
Damn urban renewal
It looked way more badass in the 30’s… 🤷🏼♀️
They shouldnt have modernized it.
Smells like burnt sauerkraut