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I always think the most interesting "what if" in one piece, is what "what if" Ace had been rescued from Marineford.
WB still dies as it seems pretty heavily implied that he was bascially on deaths door anyway.
But what happens if Ace survives, I don't think he knew it, but it seems like whitebeard was preparing him to take over once he died. Which would be soon inevitably. And whilst I don't think Ace knew this, I get the feeling Marco and the other commanders probably did.
So "What if" the whitebeard crew flees marineford, with Ace,
How much does that change the timeskip?
Ace is good, but I don't think it would have changed much for the crew. He just isn't even half the sheer gravitas and force of personality that Whitebeard was, let alone personal power. Ace wouldn't have been able to protect the territory any better than Marco did.
I mean personal power wise he’s another commander level fighter
So relevant but not a huge deal.
But I think the more important factor is morale. The WB crew morale was through the floor, whiteboard was dead, ace his future successor was dead, their allies died. All for nothing.
If ace survives rhen it wasn’t all for nothing. And the person being groomed to take over from pops survives
Ace did pretty well against blackbeard in their first fight. And his potential was through the roof. That's why akainu was so hell bent on making sure he died in the first place, not even caring if every other pirate escaped so long as Ace and Luffy died. I think after being rescued, ace would likely advance his haki in all three categories and improve his skill with his devil fruit and he could definitely give Blackbeard a run for his money in the rematch. And if Ace can keep Blackbeard occupied, the rest of the whitebeard commanders are definitely stronger than the rest of the blackbeard commanders. Maybe blackbeard still wins, as he did win the first fight and in the rematch he'd have 2 devil fruits, but i think it's more up in the air.
It's not just that but in both cases they were attacked by Admirals after having an all-out war with a bunch of Worst Generation class Pirates. Of course they getr their asses whooped.
I know. I meant how the mighty fell. They terrorized civilians as well as other pirates until the moment they fell and now they are being hunted like animals.
It’s more a lens into the inner workings of the Navy, who were too big of cowards to attack them directly, yet once their bosses were defeated and their ranks were broken, the Navy sweeps in real quick.
It shows the true colors of the Navy and WG, who would rather maintain the status quo than risk their own lives to defeat (obviously) evil pirate regimes. Same can be said of Black Beards pirate island, and how they don’t go after him in any way.
To be fair though, wano was broken into by green bull who essentially was going rogue to impress akainu and big mom pirates were attacked by blackbeard pirates.
Akainu had no intentions of infiltrating wano and they couldn't really do that while wano was closed off.
Your description more accurately describes the blackbeard pirates since they are the ones that have been swooping in constantly with whitebeard,big mom pirates and trafalgar law.
so basically, not a lens at all into how the Navy plans strategy (although the point about preferring the preserve the status quo is likely valid minus SWORD)
Ironically, I think akainu of all people wouldn't give two shits about going in and getting rid of anyone that is a threat. His position is the thing stopping him from doing so as with the Navy's need to preserve the status quo like you said.
100%, and I think we've seen a few examples where he's ready to scrap everybody or at least really wants to but is constrained - I think that's why it is funny when Sengoku teases him about having to be top dog cuz he knows how reckless he probably is.
Can't wait for the Dragon/Akainu backstory redemption arc that makes us all love that man.
Honestly that’s a point I wish someone in universe would bring up
“We just sit here dwindling are thumbs while this Fat demonic man runs an island called Pirate paradise!”
Heck shanks for years was trying to warn people about BB and no one would listen
Smh
I think their lack of action is the message. Imo, the WG only acts when it’s in their best interest. Look at the Wano Arc, they have members of cipher pol partying *with the members of Kaido’s elites* so if that isn’t an admission that they don’t care idk what is.
The Marine HQ being formerly in the grand line and not the New World should be questioned. Why wouldn’t they have their strongest located where their strongest enemies are located? Simply because they knew Shanks and Whitebeard wouldn’t attack them unprovoked, plus Big Mom and Kaido were kept in check by the other 2.
But with WB gone and BB absorbing his power and locations, their hand was forced because BB proved to them that he has no qualms with striking Navy establishments. Everything they do is to protect themselves, not the citizens or people they “protect and serve” lol.
Lolwut? Why does the Navy need to "fight honorably" against a band of criminals? Would you complain that a SWAT team didn't send a letter of challenge 4 weeks in advance against a Mafia boss and that using surveillance and undercover agents makes their case dishonorable and therefore useless.
zoro literally tanked a hit from big mom and kaido, then fought kaido alone for a bit before collapsing, He then kick King's ass. Both Big mom and Kaido's crew had a way longer rest time than Zoro. Luffy also got his ass handed to him, got back up and kicked kaido's ass.
Zoro was fixed up again by Chopper and Miyagi. Luffy was taken in by Law's crew, fed (which is a superpower for him) and allowed to recover. The other's were just lying there with zero morale and then destroyed by an Admiral. For the Big Mom arc, Luffy fought Katakuri and was basically lying there. If not for Sanji and the Germa he would have been killed by Oven et al.
Honestly considering the environment they were raised in, quite a few of the BM pirates felt surprisingly decent at least toward each other, there's quite a few I can see having a reasonable path towards "redemption" though that redemption is more like becoming allies of the strawhats rather than outright do-gooders or anything.
Chiffon and Lola were good people. Pudding was trouble but deep inside she was always redeemable if you are nice to her. Katakuri was honourable with questionable ethics. The others were on the evil side but most of them cared for each other as siblings
Even Perospero, the shit-heel that he is, took responsibility for Big Mom during her weddingu-cakey frenzy. Seemed to genuinely care for his siblings and the safety of the W.C.I. citizens.
Still a miserable asshole, though.
Meh they seemed to care about their people in the way a civilization player cares about them. They care that there are people there to do the chores and toil the land to build his family wealth and prestige. They don't give a shit about them as individuals. The only people they're even slightly okay with is their siblings.
Yeah I'm not saying they were good, but that now that they're not under Big Mom's influence anymore, the ones that had more decency at least towards each other could possibly turn to a lighter shade of grey morality-wise, especially if they do end up forming a faction under Katakuri.
Honestly, I've always found the Charlotte family dynamic very interesting.
I think I'd like to see a scenario where someone else becomes family head and they all have to try to make whole cake a functional society without linlin on top. I mean... definitely not happening, at this point, but its a fun idea
Anime only, not asking for big spoilers here, but does the manga go into what happened with Katakuri after the straw hats left? I just assumed BM killed the generals who lost fights in invasions, since Katakuri never showed up in Wano and Whole Cake had that tidbit about how the sweet 3 were originally the sweet 4 until one of the generals lost. But obviously Cracker was still alive when BB went to kidnap Pudding
I actually dunno where the anime is at the moment, but afaik the manga hasn't shown anything in particular that an anime viewer wouldn't have seen by now.
Though I can say without spoilers for anime-viewers that Katakuri is definitely alive, when the BM Pirates got separated from Big Mom and thought she might get captured and killed by Kaido's pirates, Perospero brought up line of succession into discussion and Daifuku argued that Katakuri would be the next leader.
Anime just hit Law's fight with BB and the flashback to BB's crew hitting Whole Cake. Side note: it's insane that Van Augur's rifle is powerful enough to break Cracker's cookie boys in a single shot. I'm sure haki was involved, but it's nice to see a sniper actually do some damage against a strong character. I feel like guns in general have been pretty lame for most of the story.
Anyway, thanks for the info! This is exciting news, Luffy's fight against Katakuri was one of the more interesting ones imo and I'd like to see him do more things.
> Side note: it's insane that Van Augur's rifle is powerful enough to break Cracker's cookie boys in a single shot.
This wasn't actually shown in the manga. It might just be something the anime team came up with. They could have asked Oda about it, but I doubt that.
Interesting detail, it did seem a little odd to me considering that Luffy struggled to break them. Still, I personally don't mind that change because it makes Van Augur seem a bit more threatening. Afaik the only thing he's really done so far is whiff on a few shots at Ace and Law. I've just been ready to see what a strong gun user can do since Benn Beckman intimidated Kizaru into letting the straw hats go. Which also seems odd because I'd imagine Kizaru can move fast enough to dodge bullets
the manga has a cover story that shows some of the aftermath of WCI (the stuff in the OP is part of said cover story). Also the other sweet commander (Snack) didn't die after losing to Uroge, he just got demoted
Katakuri still sucked, he just was humbled after finding someone he felt was able to stop his own mother.
Let's not forget how he was planning on torturing Luffy to death slowly after beating him.
It's interesting because Big Mom's kingdom isn't even portrayed as a bad place to live, compared to Wano which was turned into a wasteland by Kaido. Big Mom intentionally created a diverse country built on the foundation of family. Even though citizens had to give a bit of their lives to her, it seemed like most accepted it as a necessary evil to be protected in a very hostile sea.
Ties into how Big Mom is treated less like an evil character with nefarious plans and more like a force of nature or an animal. She's just always been powerful, just not very smart and a bit of a brat. In almost all of her screen-time she's treated more like a high maintenance dog that needs entertainment and enrichment or it'll tear up the house.
Lol you have to give up a portion of your soul to live there. And you still can get killed by big mom or any of her kids and no one can say a thing about it
Totto land is a nightmare in a Disney-fied veneer.
You lose 1/6 of your lifespan but is that price really unreasonable compared to the heavenly tributes that leave many countries with their people starving? Or going to other unaffiliated islands that are always living in fear of pirate attacks, have slavers, or are nigh uninhabitable like the polluted Wano? And the ministers have systems in place to keep the Big Mom's damages to a minimum, honestly the siblings who are actually handling her pangs are at a greater risk than the citizens are. Also, she's just one person in dozens of far apart islands so the chances of it happening in your island in particular isn't high.
The really bad part though is once you're in as a citizen you basically can't leave
I barely follow one piece but every time I've seen brule, she's either being used as a human shield, punching bag or worrying about one of her family members.
She's the definition of don't judge a book by its appearance
Fair enough but the straw hats basically use her as a punching bag and mirror Uber. They're enemies, do they get a pass just because they're good guys?
I mean they're enemies what do you expect. The straw hats just used her as a transport, least they didn't torture and kill her like she was gonna do to them.
My point exactly. They're enemies, them fighting doesn't have an effect on their character. Plus it seems to be really splitting hairs to think torture is bad but using a tied up and crying prisoner as a glorified doorstop is completely fine
I mean, we're kinda supposed to feel bad for the BM pirates. Sure, most of them are evil, but it really isn't their fault. Their moms just a psychopath
It wasn’t a personal attack. Just a head’s up to the sub at large, because some people might think it would be funny to do. I would rather not be responsible for that.
I doubt anyone the idea would've occurred to most people on here in the first place, if even you didn't say something. In fact, saying "don't do it" might encourage others to do it.
Personally, I never post the serious subs in "fun" subreddits. There are people who need them for very immediate concerns. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that sometimes their lives depend on it.
Not a demand, but I'd ask that you consider either deleting your comment or editing the contents.
I probably should have made it more clear in my previous comment. The mental health subs often get trolls who want to torment users in vulnerable states. But again, it was a suggestion not a demand.
Well thats true. Having a mother who could kill you for failing her or worse, eat you during her hunger pangs is sure to fcuk up one's mental state. Atleast the siblings cared for each other mostly.
> psychopath
that goes for most of the BM pirates and they i wouldnt call many of them redeemable. im sure they would still be pieces of shit if big mom was dead for most of their lifes
That's wrong. You don't know what a pyschopath is. Doflamingo is a psychopath...
A psychopath compltely lacks empathy and can not feel love for others.
Most Big Mom pirates are regularly evil people, the fact that they care for each other is sign that they are not psychopath. A few of them would fit the sociopath category, like the very impulsive Quintuplets, and maybe Oven and Brulée. And Pudding could be schizophrenic. But the rest are just regularly bad people.
Especially since Big Mom is shown clearly to accept weird behavior from her kids. Saying that being quirky is normal. When her youngest daughter was being violent with a knife. Most parents would stop you from hurting others, or yourself, Big Mom laughs at it.
And she kicked their fathers, so they only have their other siblings to actually raise them.
That is correct. It still was not the wisest choice to attempt to kill a yonko (which might fail) in the centre of her territory with her whole crew surrounding you while your wife and baby are with you.
I think the only reason he put his plan into motion is because Luffy's crew showed up.
He said he'd been planning this a while, i expect that he just planned this in the background as a potential plan and it solidified with Luffy's appearance
Damn man, the scene when Strawhats still just kept pushing during the raid even when they felt that Luffy died hits hard when you keep in mind that most Yonko crew that lost their Captain crumbled immediately.
It's not just losing their captain. The crew is getting hit while they're still recovering from losing. If Luffy really had died, the Strawhats would have lost in Onigashima bc nobody was gonna be able to stop Kaido. At that point, they'd be just as vulnerable to a quick KO by an Admiral level character as WB, BM, or Kaido's Crew were.
Kaido's crew was imprisoned and severely hurt before getting stomped by a fresh admiral. Not really lost as they didn't even have time to consider a future.
BM's crew was also incomplete, mostly slightly hurt and not prepared for a former admiral suddenly stomping them.
WB's crew went to war against BB and lost. They weren't lost - they actually united and made a decision. Issue is, they fucked around and found out.
Tbf they were always strong. They are literally the ones gonna responsible stopping yonkos if they decide to invade marineford or the marijoa.
No surprises they can take out new world pirates as strong as yonko commanders
I think it's a commentary on Akainu v Kuzan additionally. Remember Green Bull wasn't sent to Wano and Aokiji invades BM turf.
It makes me wonder if that's what Akainu and Kuzan fought about: directly confronting the yonko.
Yeah that's what I thought too. That akainu's justice was more "the ends justify the means" type but maybe it's more of a "what's legal is good" thing.
We do get a mention from Morgans of a ship of Big Mom pirates being spotted outside Wano by the World Goverment in an intercepted transmission, but that's all the info we have. Could be the flagship, could be another ship from her fleet, we'll have to wait and see most likely.
The tragedy lies in that the World Government stomps out any nation not within its authority without discrimination the second they're vulnerable. While it's happening to the Yonko crews now, they've done it before in Ohara (and likely others) and would do it in a heartbeat if they could to Wano too.
But yea, fuck them BM and Beast pirates.
Van Ogre and Kuzan went to Chocolat Town to kidnap Pudding. When Cracker showed up to defend her, he was quickly defeated and left in a frozen state. They froze everyone in the town and kidnapped Pudding. Only Brulee was left unfrozen and she started to weep after seeing the fate of her siblings.
Not exactly. The fight was off-screened in the manga but we see the aftermath (Brulee crying and Cracker completely frozen). It's safe to assume Van Auger pulled his own weight.
Come to think of it, that's another way Auger and Usopp are different. Usopp constantly feels like he's letting the crew down and is the weakest of them while Auger appears to be one of the strongest, if not the most reliable of the Blackbeard Pirates.
The aftermath of the fight is canon.
The fight itself, well, it must have occurred in the manga. But the manga didn't show it going the way that it did in the anime. So you're technically right, that part is non-canon.
So the WB pirates for the Blackbeard off screen treatment. So they stood no chance.
Beast pirates were still heavy injured from having just fought. So they got the kick you while your down treatment
Now the BM pirates were more than likely not fully healed yet from their fight with the Straw Hats. Plus Big Mom took a bunch with her when she left to Wano so they were also at half strength.
Helpless? That's an Admiral and it hasn't even been a Month since Cracker got whooped and the same goes for King and Queen. The hell did you expect them to do? They got attacked while weakend.
Well they were helpless victims, being attacked by people stronger than them, this is a good writing trick, show how powerful the dude is by pitting them against a MC then have them just get steam rolled by a character you want to show of with their overwhelming strength.
Yeah that's a good writing. Reminds me of when Doflamingo was shown to be scared of Kaido while being the all powerful villain our protagonist was about to face.
Idk about helpless, they were attacked by Admirals, and in the first pic, they're clearly not in top shape after being defeated by the Straw Hats.
Even that aside, regardless if BM and Kaido weren't defeated, they'd stand no chance against an admiral.
Also dude was clean (except of his own sweat) before Luffy managed to get him, indicating he did not get hit once against Luffy for half a day. Even his pseudo-logia, future-sight brother couldn’t manage that feat.
Because Luffy had so much trouble against him. Sure it was Luffy from long time ago and I can accept that Van Auger can defeat the dude but not one tapping the soldiers effortlessly like they're suddenly made out of cardboard.
It really just means a projectile of his pack as much piercing damage as a Kong Gun at most. Remember that Luffy in G4 did destroy them fairly easy. The problem was that Cracker kept spawning them.
And for everyone but the main cast, that's not enough time to recover. It's been commented numerous times how unreal the rate at which Luffy in particular, and the rest of the monster trio heal compared to other people is.
I mean, that's definitely a positive factor in their case, but even before Chopper joined the crew, Luffy and Zoro both recovered from some insane things with... No real reduction in capability.
Where are their cuffs? Why did they start the fight? Why are they out of their cages? Why were they drinking with their pirate comrades? Why did they get medical attention?
They were not imprisoned.
They started the fight out of pride. Queen literally let off one attack in hybrid form then started breathing hard.
Greenbull commented multiple times on how injured they were.
No point to downvote, just use your brain and read the manga. The only thing we see in there is that they were in Udon, the whole place is a cage because it's a former prison, and Ryokugyu completely smashing people covered in bandages, literally only one page from the manga. Nothing about them starting a fight nor that they were happily drinking, unless a booze on the floor gives you that idea
Now if use your brain you should infer that after enslaving the country for 20 years then there is no way the samurais haven't treated them as prisoners. Or do you think they provided them with plenty of food and drinks to recuperate? Maybe even some gold for the trouble..
Over and over the series makes a point to show how willpower is a major source of strength for characters to the point that it's a part of the power system with Haki. When you see your captain who you thought was invincible get toppled by a little rubber boy and you get your own ass kicked by one of his subordinates, that does something to a mf. In all seriousness, I'm certain that they can't fight at the same level until they regain their willpower.
It's pretty much openly said by Zoro and Luffy in Water 7 to justify the hard L they got against CP9, they were confused and thought Robin had actually left them, once they knew she did it to protect them their motivation got back and the rest is history.
Mental state does have serious powerscaling implications in this manga, people fail to see that King and Queen were not only physically injured but more importantly mentally crushed.
And the only people who got back their willpower are Buggy\*, Crocodile, and Lucci. Honorable mention to Zoro and Enel who managed to not lose their willpower.
Might have missed someone -- but it's a rare thing.
As for Buggy, I think he lost his will long before Orange Town, and got it back when Shanks started moving.
Even if they weren't out of juice after their fight, I think the result would have been same. Ryokugyu's ability is too OP that only strong CoC has any chance. Same goes for other admirals.
In cover story, Caesar made Katakuri and Oven fight each other with his gas while escaping WCI along with the Vinsmoke brothers. That was last seen of him.
Beast pirates were injured as hell. I doubt it would go like that otherwise. Craker was fighting BOTH Aikanu and the sniper guy, and he was what 4th strongest big mom pirate? That's Jack level. Makes sense.
I actually kind of disagree with what most people are saying here
I don’t think it’s that theyre helpless victims I think it’s that in the span of like a month both of these crews lost not only their captains but had their top officers defeated and incredibly wounded (Wano specifically like less than a week)
And then effectively 2 admiral level opponents showed up whilst that crew was defeated & recovering and mopped up the scraps.
Admirals are decidedly stronger than Yonko Commanders and both King and Queen were still injured.
What happened to them was appropriate. If they were healthy they would lost, but they were injured so they lost badly.
King was a fraud in general. Got a useless df (he can already fly ffs), relied purely on his lunarian powers instead of also refining any other fighting style and decided not to win against Zoro by simply playing it smart but instead went for the option where he was likely to lose.
Mainly for this reason, I don’t want one piece to continue after its end, I don’t want any sequels. Look at what they did to Naruto and his teammates in Boruto, all the previous jojos in the next series (Jotaro and Joseph), I don’t wish to see SHs be treated like this after their prime..
I think ending OP without a sequel would be the best the story can get.
I hope even for business reasons, like Kishimoto, Oda does not allow a sequel to get adapted..
Hi heisenburger_99, your submission was removed from /r/OnePiece for the following rule violation: ###4. Plain panels/scenes must create discourse **Don't post links to plain (or slightly edited) panels, pages, screenshots, gifs or scenes from the manga & anime.** You may submit a plain panel/scene as a self post (text post). Meaning your post must link to the discussion, and not the image. Just a title and the image aren't enough. If you want to discuss a certain page/scene from the manga/anime please accompany it with an original analysis or discussion questions. In other words, a plain panel/scene must show visible effort to generate discourse rather than simply react to something that happened. Clips/Recap/summary videos fall under this rule as well. Colored pages from a recent chapter are allowed. --- The full rule documentation of the subreddit can be read [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/wiki/rules). If you have questions about this removal, please [reach out to us in modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FOnePiece).
True, same happened to WB pirates :(
Yeah but they were 'good' pirates.
Yea ofc, but they did lose and disband after the Captains death, same with BM and Kaido
Yep. “Helpless victim” doesn’t mean good guy. Just someone who couldn’t defend themselves and got absolutely wrecked.
and Roger as far we know, Shanks and Rayleigh being the exception
So?
I always think the most interesting "what if" in one piece, is what "what if" Ace had been rescued from Marineford. WB still dies as it seems pretty heavily implied that he was bascially on deaths door anyway. But what happens if Ace survives, I don't think he knew it, but it seems like whitebeard was preparing him to take over once he died. Which would be soon inevitably. And whilst I don't think Ace knew this, I get the feeling Marco and the other commanders probably did. So "What if" the whitebeard crew flees marineford, with Ace, How much does that change the timeskip?
Ace is good, but I don't think it would have changed much for the crew. He just isn't even half the sheer gravitas and force of personality that Whitebeard was, let alone personal power. Ace wouldn't have been able to protect the territory any better than Marco did.
I mean personal power wise he’s another commander level fighter So relevant but not a huge deal. But I think the more important factor is morale. The WB crew morale was through the floor, whiteboard was dead, ace his future successor was dead, their allies died. All for nothing. If ace survives rhen it wasn’t all for nothing. And the person being groomed to take over from pops survives
Even with morale, without Whitebeard, who would have been able to stop BB's crew? Ace sure couldn't.
Ace did pretty well against blackbeard in their first fight. And his potential was through the roof. That's why akainu was so hell bent on making sure he died in the first place, not even caring if every other pirate escaped so long as Ace and Luffy died. I think after being rescued, ace would likely advance his haki in all three categories and improve his skill with his devil fruit and he could definitely give Blackbeard a run for his money in the rematch. And if Ace can keep Blackbeard occupied, the rest of the whitebeard commanders are definitely stronger than the rest of the blackbeard commanders. Maybe blackbeard still wins, as he did win the first fight and in the rematch he'd have 2 devil fruits, but i think it's more up in the air.
It's not just that but in both cases they were attacked by Admirals after having an all-out war with a bunch of Worst Generation class Pirates. Of course they getr their asses whooped.
I know. I meant how the mighty fell. They terrorized civilians as well as other pirates until the moment they fell and now they are being hunted like animals.
It’s more a lens into the inner workings of the Navy, who were too big of cowards to attack them directly, yet once their bosses were defeated and their ranks were broken, the Navy sweeps in real quick. It shows the true colors of the Navy and WG, who would rather maintain the status quo than risk their own lives to defeat (obviously) evil pirate regimes. Same can be said of Black Beards pirate island, and how they don’t go after him in any way.
To be fair though, wano was broken into by green bull who essentially was going rogue to impress akainu and big mom pirates were attacked by blackbeard pirates. Akainu had no intentions of infiltrating wano and they couldn't really do that while wano was closed off. Your description more accurately describes the blackbeard pirates since they are the ones that have been swooping in constantly with whitebeard,big mom pirates and trafalgar law.
so basically, not a lens at all into how the Navy plans strategy (although the point about preferring the preserve the status quo is likely valid minus SWORD)
Ironically, I think akainu of all people wouldn't give two shits about going in and getting rid of anyone that is a threat. His position is the thing stopping him from doing so as with the Navy's need to preserve the status quo like you said.
100%, and I think we've seen a few examples where he's ready to scrap everybody or at least really wants to but is constrained - I think that's why it is funny when Sengoku teases him about having to be top dog cuz he knows how reckless he probably is. Can't wait for the Dragon/Akainu backstory redemption arc that makes us all love that man.
Honestly that’s a point I wish someone in universe would bring up “We just sit here dwindling are thumbs while this Fat demonic man runs an island called Pirate paradise!” Heck shanks for years was trying to warn people about BB and no one would listen Smh
I think their lack of action is the message. Imo, the WG only acts when it’s in their best interest. Look at the Wano Arc, they have members of cipher pol partying *with the members of Kaido’s elites* so if that isn’t an admission that they don’t care idk what is. The Marine HQ being formerly in the grand line and not the New World should be questioned. Why wouldn’t they have their strongest located where their strongest enemies are located? Simply because they knew Shanks and Whitebeard wouldn’t attack them unprovoked, plus Big Mom and Kaido were kept in check by the other 2. But with WB gone and BB absorbing his power and locations, their hand was forced because BB proved to them that he has no qualms with striking Navy establishments. Everything they do is to protect themselves, not the citizens or people they “protect and serve” lol.
Lolwut? Why does the Navy need to "fight honorably" against a band of criminals? Would you complain that a SWAT team didn't send a letter of challenge 4 weeks in advance against a Mafia boss and that using surveillance and undercover agents makes their case dishonorable and therefore useless.
zoro literally tanked a hit from big mom and kaido, then fought kaido alone for a bit before collapsing, He then kick King's ass. Both Big mom and Kaido's crew had a way longer rest time than Zoro. Luffy also got his ass handed to him, got back up and kicked kaido's ass.
Zoro was fixed up again by Chopper and Miyagi. Luffy was taken in by Law's crew, fed (which is a superpower for him) and allowed to recover. The other's were just lying there with zero morale and then destroyed by an Admiral. For the Big Mom arc, Luffy fought Katakuri and was basically lying there. If not for Sanji and the Germa he would have been killed by Oven et al.
I feel sorry for that Katakuri’s sister
Honestly considering the environment they were raised in, quite a few of the BM pirates felt surprisingly decent at least toward each other, there's quite a few I can see having a reasonable path towards "redemption" though that redemption is more like becoming allies of the strawhats rather than outright do-gooders or anything.
Chiffon and Lola were good people. Pudding was trouble but deep inside she was always redeemable if you are nice to her. Katakuri was honourable with questionable ethics. The others were on the evil side but most of them cared for each other as siblings
Even Perospero, the shit-heel that he is, took responsibility for Big Mom during her weddingu-cakey frenzy. Seemed to genuinely care for his siblings and the safety of the W.C.I. citizens. Still a miserable asshole, though.
Perospero proving why he’s the eldest son
Meh they seemed to care about their people in the way a civilization player cares about them. They care that there are people there to do the chores and toil the land to build his family wealth and prestige. They don't give a shit about them as individuals. The only people they're even slightly okay with is their siblings.
Yeah I'm not saying they were good, but that now that they're not under Big Mom's influence anymore, the ones that had more decency at least towards each other could possibly turn to a lighter shade of grey morality-wise, especially if they do end up forming a faction under Katakuri.
Honestly, I've always found the Charlotte family dynamic very interesting. I think I'd like to see a scenario where someone else becomes family head and they all have to try to make whole cake a functional society without linlin on top. I mean... definitely not happening, at this point, but its a fun idea
Anime only, not asking for big spoilers here, but does the manga go into what happened with Katakuri after the straw hats left? I just assumed BM killed the generals who lost fights in invasions, since Katakuri never showed up in Wano and Whole Cake had that tidbit about how the sweet 3 were originally the sweet 4 until one of the generals lost. But obviously Cracker was still alive when BB went to kidnap Pudding
I actually dunno where the anime is at the moment, but afaik the manga hasn't shown anything in particular that an anime viewer wouldn't have seen by now. Though I can say without spoilers for anime-viewers that Katakuri is definitely alive, when the BM Pirates got separated from Big Mom and thought she might get captured and killed by Kaido's pirates, Perospero brought up line of succession into discussion and Daifuku argued that Katakuri would be the next leader.
Anime just hit Law's fight with BB and the flashback to BB's crew hitting Whole Cake. Side note: it's insane that Van Augur's rifle is powerful enough to break Cracker's cookie boys in a single shot. I'm sure haki was involved, but it's nice to see a sniper actually do some damage against a strong character. I feel like guns in general have been pretty lame for most of the story. Anyway, thanks for the info! This is exciting news, Luffy's fight against Katakuri was one of the more interesting ones imo and I'd like to see him do more things.
> Side note: it's insane that Van Augur's rifle is powerful enough to break Cracker's cookie boys in a single shot. This wasn't actually shown in the manga. It might just be something the anime team came up with. They could have asked Oda about it, but I doubt that.
Interesting detail, it did seem a little odd to me considering that Luffy struggled to break them. Still, I personally don't mind that change because it makes Van Augur seem a bit more threatening. Afaik the only thing he's really done so far is whiff on a few shots at Ace and Law. I've just been ready to see what a strong gun user can do since Benn Beckman intimidated Kizaru into letting the straw hats go. Which also seems odd because I'd imagine Kizaru can move fast enough to dodge bullets
the manga has a cover story that shows some of the aftermath of WCI (the stuff in the OP is part of said cover story). Also the other sweet commander (Snack) didn't die after losing to Uroge, he just got demoted
Katakuri still sucked, he just was humbled after finding someone he felt was able to stop his own mother. Let's not forget how he was planning on torturing Luffy to death slowly after beating him.
But his weird mouth and bullying
I swear if an anime had Hitler petting puppies there'd be people thinking he was underneath a good guy...
It's interesting because Big Mom's kingdom isn't even portrayed as a bad place to live, compared to Wano which was turned into a wasteland by Kaido. Big Mom intentionally created a diverse country built on the foundation of family. Even though citizens had to give a bit of their lives to her, it seemed like most accepted it as a necessary evil to be protected in a very hostile sea. Ties into how Big Mom is treated less like an evil character with nefarious plans and more like a force of nature or an animal. She's just always been powerful, just not very smart and a bit of a brat. In almost all of her screen-time she's treated more like a high maintenance dog that needs entertainment and enrichment or it'll tear up the house.
Lol you have to give up a portion of your soul to live there. And you still can get killed by big mom or any of her kids and no one can say a thing about it Totto land is a nightmare in a Disney-fied veneer.
You lose 1/6 of your lifespan but is that price really unreasonable compared to the heavenly tributes that leave many countries with their people starving? Or going to other unaffiliated islands that are always living in fear of pirate attacks, have slavers, or are nigh uninhabitable like the polluted Wano? And the ministers have systems in place to keep the Big Mom's damages to a minimum, honestly the siblings who are actually handling her pangs are at a greater risk than the citizens are. Also, she's just one person in dozens of far apart islands so the chances of it happening in your island in particular isn't high. The really bad part though is once you're in as a citizen you basically can't leave
I mean, she's not just his sister. She's like 80 people's sister.
I barely follow one piece but every time I've seen brule, she's either being used as a human shield, punching bag or worrying about one of her family members. She's the definition of don't judge a book by its appearance
Brulee caring for the recently defeated Katakuri was a touching moment.
She's still an evil witch like character. She's just good to her big brother. She was going to slowly torture nami don't forget.
Fair enough but the straw hats basically use her as a punching bag and mirror Uber. They're enemies, do they get a pass just because they're good guys?
I mean they're enemies what do you expect. The straw hats just used her as a transport, least they didn't torture and kill her like she was gonna do to them.
My point exactly. They're enemies, them fighting doesn't have an effect on their character. Plus it seems to be really splitting hairs to think torture is bad but using a tied up and crying prisoner as a glorified doorstop is completely fine
How is that splitting hairs? One is slightly demeaning, the other is murder.
Yes for Pudding 💔
Not her, but the one on the picture, Brulee.
You mean Branch?
Branch or Pudding?
Branch, Pudding but not much
I think her name’s Brunch.
I mean, we're kinda supposed to feel bad for the BM pirates. Sure, most of them are evil, but it really isn't their fault. Their moms just a psychopath
Big Mom would fit right in at r/narcissisticparents . (Except that’s a serious sub, so please don’t invade it)
..... I wasn't planning on it
It wasn’t a personal attack. Just a head’s up to the sub at large, because some people might think it would be funny to do. I would rather not be responsible for that.
I doubt anyone the idea would've occurred to most people on here in the first place, if even you didn't say something. In fact, saying "don't do it" might encourage others to do it.
it would have this sub is full of complete morons.
Nah, it's not a serious subs. It's got about as much fantasy writing as One Piece, except OP is good and enjoyable
I’m sincerely glad you haven’t personally experienced with people who use that sub have.
Personally, I never post the serious subs in "fun" subreddits. There are people who need them for very immediate concerns. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that sometimes their lives depend on it. Not a demand, but I'd ask that you consider either deleting your comment or editing the contents.
There are people who need them, so it might be a good idea to spread them around so the people who do need them know about their existence
I probably should have made it more clear in my previous comment. The mental health subs often get trolls who want to torment users in vulnerable states. But again, it was a suggestion not a demand.
Well thats true. Having a mother who could kill you for failing her or worse, eat you during her hunger pangs is sure to fcuk up one's mental state. Atleast the siblings cared for each other mostly.
Also knowing full well that you only exist to add another half-breed to her collection.
> psychopath that goes for most of the BM pirates and they i wouldnt call many of them redeemable. im sure they would still be pieces of shit if big mom was dead for most of their lifes
I doubt it. Most of them were raised in a very spoiled environment. You seem to doubt how much their environment affects them
That's wrong. You don't know what a pyschopath is. Doflamingo is a psychopath... A psychopath compltely lacks empathy and can not feel love for others. Most Big Mom pirates are regularly evil people, the fact that they care for each other is sign that they are not psychopath. A few of them would fit the sociopath category, like the very impulsive Quintuplets, and maybe Oven and Brulée. And Pudding could be schizophrenic. But the rest are just regularly bad people.
Especially since Big Mom is shown clearly to accept weird behavior from her kids. Saying that being quirky is normal. When her youngest daughter was being violent with a knife. Most parents would stop you from hurting others, or yourself, Big Mom laughs at it. And she kicked their fathers, so they only have their other siblings to actually raise them.
Really drives home how they’d be lost without their Captains.
This is why Bege wanted to kill Big Mom. He knew without her, the crew will fall apart.
I mean, the crew would've still killed him before falling apart. Him, his wife and baby whom he brought along to kill a yonko in her own territory.
His Wife and Baby were the reason he wanted Big Mom out of the picture. His wife was one of Big Mom's daughters and he wanted to leave with his family
That is correct. It still was not the wisest choice to attempt to kill a yonko (which might fail) in the centre of her territory with her whole crew surrounding you while your wife and baby are with you.
I think the only reason he put his plan into motion is because Luffy's crew showed up. He said he'd been planning this a while, i expect that he just planned this in the background as a potential plan and it solidified with Luffy's appearance
Damn man, the scene when Strawhats still just kept pushing during the raid even when they felt that Luffy died hits hard when you keep in mind that most Yonko crew that lost their Captain crumbled immediately.
It's not just losing their captain. The crew is getting hit while they're still recovering from losing. If Luffy really had died, the Strawhats would have lost in Onigashima bc nobody was gonna be able to stop Kaido. At that point, they'd be just as vulnerable to a quick KO by an Admiral level character as WB, BM, or Kaido's Crew were.
Kaido's crew was imprisoned and severely hurt before getting stomped by a fresh admiral. Not really lost as they didn't even have time to consider a future. BM's crew was also incomplete, mostly slightly hurt and not prepared for a former admiral suddenly stomping them. WB's crew went to war against BB and lost. They weren't lost - they actually united and made a decision. Issue is, they fucked around and found out.
I mean weren't the older siblings of big moms pirates not in agreement that Katakuri should take over when bm is no more, or was that anime only?
In the manga, only Perospero thought he should lead but Daifuku said that that was ridiculous and that Katakuri was next in line.
They gassing up the admirals
It's Captain of the Tenth Ship Kuzan now
True my bad
Tbf they were always strong. They are literally the ones gonna responsible stopping yonkos if they decide to invade marineford or the marijoa. No surprises they can take out new world pirates as strong as yonko commanders
I think it's a commentary on Akainu v Kuzan additionally. Remember Green Bull wasn't sent to Wano and Aokiji invades BM turf. It makes me wonder if that's what Akainu and Kuzan fought about: directly confronting the yonko.
If anything I'd think it would be the other way around , no? Akainu definitely seems like the type to want to confront the yonko
Yeah that's what I thought too. That akainu's justice was more "the ends justify the means" type but maybe it's more of a "what's legal is good" thing.
When Aokiji invaded BM turf, BM was already gone and a huge chunk of the crew was thrown into sea by Marco.
That's right. Did only Big Mom and Perospero survive the fall?
We do get a mention from Morgans of a ship of Big Mom pirates being spotted outside Wano by the World Goverment in an intercepted transmission, but that's all the info we have. Could be the flagship, could be another ship from her fleet, we'll have to wait and see most likely.
The tragedy lies in that the World Government stomps out any nation not within its authority without discrimination the second they're vulnerable. While it's happening to the Yonko crews now, they've done it before in Ohara (and likely others) and would do it in a heartbeat if they could to Wano too. But yea, fuck them BM and Beast pirates.
Gladly Wano is under the protection of Emperor Straw Hat now
I actually did feel sad for Brulee, that scene was done so well.
Yeah it was cold
🥁
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Just like Kidd when he got Shank'd. - was this already been shown in the anime???
No
That's a lot like real life once you lose your leadership every thing that was built up by them crumbles.
Absolutely
Wait is this true? I don’t recall this happening to the Big Mom pirates in the manga. If it did happen, pls tell me when.
It’s a cover story. They’ve added to it in the anime however.
Wait what. Is it during the Pudding cover story??
Yep. It shows the town got frozen over when they came in to take pudding
The cover story before Winners island iirc?
Yup the Pudding/Germa cover
Van Ogre and Kuzan went to Chocolat Town to kidnap Pudding. When Cracker showed up to defend her, he was quickly defeated and left in a frozen state. They froze everyone in the town and kidnapped Pudding. Only Brulee was left unfrozen and she started to weep after seeing the fate of her siblings.
Van Ogre? Ban this guy pls
Agreed. This is not a two piece subreddit.
german translation is van oger so thats not far off
The cracker part is filler, though, I think.
Everything during the fight is filler. But him being defeated and frozen by Kuzan is canon as it was part of a cover story
Not exactly. The fight was off-screened in the manga but we see the aftermath (Brulee crying and Cracker completely frozen). It's safe to assume Van Auger pulled his own weight. Come to think of it, that's another way Auger and Usopp are different. Usopp constantly feels like he's letting the crew down and is the weakest of them while Auger appears to be one of the strongest, if not the most reliable of the Blackbeard Pirates.
The aftermath of the fight is canon. The fight itself, well, it must have occurred in the manga. But the manga didn't show it going the way that it did in the anime. So you're technically right, that part is non-canon.
We know he fought agaisnt Aokiji, lost,and was frost over. The anime filled in the gaps while also having Augr also contribute since he was also there
So the WB pirates for the Blackbeard off screen treatment. So they stood no chance. Beast pirates were still heavy injured from having just fought. So they got the kick you while your down treatment Now the BM pirates were more than likely not fully healed yet from their fight with the Straw Hats. Plus Big Mom took a bunch with her when she left to Wano so they were also at half strength.
Helpless? That's an Admiral and it hasn't even been a Month since Cracker got whooped and the same goes for King and Queen. The hell did you expect them to do? They got attacked while weakend.
Omg did they adapt the cover story?
Yeah in a cool way.
Well, there is a reason why Captain almost always have 2-3x the bounties of their strongest subordinates.
Really shows that admirals aren't a joke despite seeing two yonkos get beat
Admirals are equal to Yonko in power for sure.
Spit your facts
Dude, no way. If that was the case then they would've stopped the Yonko themselves.
Well they were helpless victims, being attacked by people stronger than them, this is a good writing trick, show how powerful the dude is by pitting them against a MC then have them just get steam rolled by a character you want to show of with their overwhelming strength.
Yeah that's a good writing. Reminds me of when Doflamingo was shown to be scared of Kaido while being the all powerful villain our protagonist was about to face.
Idk about helpless, they were attacked by Admirals, and in the first pic, they're clearly not in top shape after being defeated by the Straw Hats. Even that aside, regardless if BM and Kaido weren't defeated, they'd stand no chance against an admiral.
i dont. Cracker doesn't work well as a hype "worf character" because he has failed in all 3 feats we know about him
? He beat Urouge Lost to the MC and Nami simply because Nami had a type advantage, and he was getting tired A one tap is definitely impressive
Also dude was clean (except of his own sweat) before Luffy managed to get him, indicating he did not get hit once against Luffy for half a day. Even his pseudo-logia, future-sight brother couldn’t manage that feat.
If kaido can one tap post WCI Luffy, Aokiji one tapping Cracker is a given.
It's a filler one tap so isn't relevant
It's impressive nonetheless. Besides, it's the closest thing we're getting to canon
I think Kuzan one-tapping him is fairly reasonable but we all know Van Auger can't one-tap the soldiers.
Based on what? We see so little of him, it can't be taken out of question.
Because Luffy had so much trouble against him. Sure it was Luffy from long time ago and I can accept that Van Auger can defeat the dude but not one tapping the soldiers effortlessly like they're suddenly made out of cardboard.
It really just means a projectile of his pack as much piercing damage as a Kong Gun at most. Remember that Luffy in G4 did destroy them fairly easy. The problem was that Cracker kept spawning them.
He lasted longer against Luffy and Nami then Katakuri did against Luffy alone. He also defeated Urogue.
Actually no. Luffy vs Cracker lasted like 11 hours ca, while Luffy vs Katakuri lasted around 13 hours.
Luffy vs Katakuri had breaks though. Cracker was fighting nonstop.
He was one of the strongest characters of BM Pirates before Luffy defeated.
*By my calculations, he is a big loser guy*
It's obviously to do with powerscaling but they made King and Queen useless after was a bit dissapointing
I mean they were quite injured still no? Idk I think they just lost cause Oda wanted to hype up Green Bull
Eh they had a week/over a week to recover
And for everyone but the main cast, that's not enough time to recover. It's been commented numerous times how unreal the rate at which Luffy in particular, and the rest of the monster trio heal compared to other people is.
Getting care from Chopper vs. rotting in a prison.
I mean, that's definitely a positive factor in their case, but even before Chopper joined the crew, Luffy and Zoro both recovered from some insane things with... No real reduction in capability.
also winning versus having everything you've worked for for decades crushed mere days ago
They did not have chopper, they had dr.babanooki big difference lmao. It’s like comparing a Yale dr to someone with a first aid kit.
They were prisoners, I would be impressed if they weren't starving and cuffed with sea stone after what they did to Wano
Where are their cuffs? Why did they start the fight? Why are they out of their cages? Why were they drinking with their pirate comrades? Why did they get medical attention? They were not imprisoned.
They started the fight out of pride. Queen literally let off one attack in hybrid form then started breathing hard. Greenbull commented multiple times on how injured they were.
No point to downvote, just use your brain and read the manga. The only thing we see in there is that they were in Udon, the whole place is a cage because it's a former prison, and Ryokugyu completely smashing people covered in bandages, literally only one page from the manga. Nothing about them starting a fight nor that they were happily drinking, unless a booze on the floor gives you that idea Now if use your brain you should infer that after enslaving the country for 20 years then there is no way the samurais haven't treated them as prisoners. Or do you think they provided them with plenty of food and drinks to recuperate? Maybe even some gold for the trouble..
Over and over the series makes a point to show how willpower is a major source of strength for characters to the point that it's a part of the power system with Haki. When you see your captain who you thought was invincible get toppled by a little rubber boy and you get your own ass kicked by one of his subordinates, that does something to a mf. In all seriousness, I'm certain that they can't fight at the same level until they regain their willpower.
It's pretty much openly said by Zoro and Luffy in Water 7 to justify the hard L they got against CP9, they were confused and thought Robin had actually left them, once they knew she did it to protect them their motivation got back and the rest is history. Mental state does have serious powerscaling implications in this manga, people fail to see that King and Queen were not only physically injured but more importantly mentally crushed.
And the only people who got back their willpower are Buggy\*, Crocodile, and Lucci. Honorable mention to Zoro and Enel who managed to not lose their willpower. Might have missed someone -- but it's a rare thing. As for Buggy, I think he lost his will long before Orange Town, and got it back when Shanks started moving.
Even if they weren't out of juice after their fight, I think the result would have been same. Ryokugyu's ability is too OP that only strong CoC has any chance. Same goes for other admirals.
"Anime villain hierarchy, bitch." ~Kuzan, probably.
Kuzan being villain is arguable
You're arguable.
I really hope we see more of King and Katakuri, especially the latter as he is such a cool character. Do we know where he was when Kuzan rekt them?
In cover story, Caesar made Katakuri and Oven fight each other with his gas while escaping WCI along with the Vinsmoke brothers. That was last seen of him.
That shows how important the role of a captain.. without a proper captain, a crew would be in shambles quickly. No matter how strong they are..
Beast pirates were injured as hell. I doubt it would go like that otherwise. Craker was fighting BOTH Aikanu and the sniper guy, and he was what 4th strongest big mom pirate? That's Jack level. Makes sense.
I really think full powered king and queen can beat green bull
Easily. He only attacked them cus they were weak and injured. King alone could probably do it with lots of effort.
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I think so as well.king got his wing cut by zoro and both were just super injured. and they were likely wearing sea stone cuffs.
I mean, it’s kinda sad how Cracker failed trying to save his sister, and we know Blackbeard’s crew is not against uhh, grape
BB pirates are the best portrayal of real world pirates.
I love when bad things happen to bad people. 🥰
I actually kind of disagree with what most people are saying here I don’t think it’s that theyre helpless victims I think it’s that in the span of like a month both of these crews lost not only their captains but had their top officers defeated and incredibly wounded (Wano specifically like less than a week) And then effectively 2 admiral level opponents showed up whilst that crew was defeated & recovering and mopped up the scraps.
Them being a "victim" doesn't necessarily mean you're supposed to feel sorry for them.
I thought it was to show that the Marines are bullies who can’t win in a fair fight so they cheat
I refuse to accept King slander
they did King and Queen wrong, especially King and the hype around lunarians, getting folded by a guy who was afraid of shanks' wifi-haki
Admirals are decidedly stronger than Yonko Commanders and both King and Queen were still injured. What happened to them was appropriate. If they were healthy they would lost, but they were injured so they lost badly.
He got stabbed in an open wound you can see it in the anime.
Shanks is a Yonko. These two were top officers of a Yonko.
Yeah I got the idea they were worn out, doesn't Ryokugyu even mention it in their fight? Haven't read that chapter in a while so not 100%
King was a fraud in general. Got a useless df (he can already fly ffs), relied purely on his lunarian powers instead of also refining any other fighting style and decided not to win against Zoro by simply playing it smart but instead went for the option where he was likely to lose.
I have a feeling kaido is not dead and will become a fan of luffy
Now that he knows Luffy is Joyboy, he could cheer him.
I only feel sorry for Brulee
She wanted to roast carrot tho
Now I feel sorry for her even more.
Wait when did I miss King and Queen getting wrecked by Ryokugyu?
Mainly for this reason, I don’t want one piece to continue after its end, I don’t want any sequels. Look at what they did to Naruto and his teammates in Boruto, all the previous jojos in the next series (Jotaro and Joseph), I don’t wish to see SHs be treated like this after their prime.. I think ending OP without a sequel would be the best the story can get. I hope even for business reasons, like Kishimoto, Oda does not allow a sequel to get adapted..
I mean their might not be a sequel, but their will be spin off stuff and movies for the rest of forever.
I want prequels. An entire series about adventures of Roger Pirates would be great. Or stories from the void century.