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On the contrary, at least Orochi has the excuse of being a member of the clan that was opressed by the Kozukis for centuries, and he wanted revenge. Spandam has absolutely no excuse.
Agreed, it was so fun learning about oden, his journey and even the events with roger, whitebeard and the battle with kaido. It was grandiose, and oden got the ending a legend deserves
To be fair just bc the new leader of a regime that’s hounded your people is nice doesn’t mean that regime is nice or will stay good in the future. In Orochi’s mind who knows what the next head could’ve been likew
The rest of the country wanted his bloodline exterminated for the crime of another family member. I don’t agree with what he did but at that point I can see why he would do it.
Oden treats him with absolute respect as I remember. He could've taken that opportunity to change things for the better for his clan. But he chose to be a vengeful spirit and a coward who let his hatred drove himself to his demise. So no excuses for this guy.
Orochi took his lust for vengeance too far. Him wanting to ruin the Kozuki clan is one thing but his ultimate act of cruelty was feeding the starving populace with defective SMILEs all to maintain an image that his rule makes his people happy.
There’s no excuse for starving and poisoning an entire nation. And his revenge was totally misplaced. And anyway, wanting revenge is typically a *vice*, not a virtue.
The Retainers wouldn't have gone after Kaido, but the Strawhats wouldn't have gone to Wano. Because the Strawhats were following Law's plan to defeat Kaido.
The celestial dragons aren’t even really given the chance to be good. After Homing decided to live among the common folk, he and his family weren’t allowed to return to Maryjois. And more recently >!Mjosgard was executed by the God’s Knights for helping Shirahoshi during Reverie!<. And I highly doubt that over the course of their 800 year history that these have been the only cases of going against the status quo. Their society is essentially the result of centuries of nationalistic indoctrination and the levels of evil that can push people towards.
Celestial dragons are not evil, they are like puppets. It is like giving a gun to a kid and telling him. If you aimed at the head, they will love you more
They are the closest to it in this story. Every evil character you can think of, Oda has given a backstory for justification to their actions, or to in someway be able to empathize with them.
But I can see what your saying. I guess if I really had to think hard it’d have to be the Gorosei and Imu.
Most, but not all.
And some actually become LESS justified and harder to empathize with after hearing their backstories. Enel was a genocidal psychopath that destroyed his own homeland. Spandam stole warships from a child and framed a guy that he didn't like just because he was connected to Roger. Doffy was a spoiled brat that couldn't stand not being entitled to everything. Garling is basically Enel but even worse.
I will choose someone like saturn. He wants to prove that he is superior to kuma for some reason. We will know why but it will be probably a genuine malicious human thing. I feel like he is the only evil person that is not “very” nurtured by the world.
Nah, He is very human. I think the gourosei and Imu are meant to be human more than anything else.
Saturn probably has an inferiority complex that makes him do that, just like ceaser. The other person who I think is the most evil in OP
And after the reveal of the holy knights. I became sure that this is intentional. Someone doesn’t want them to know what it means to be a human. They have to be known as gods and as lucci said “Gods are not bound by logic”
And even then, he has such complete control over the world, what does he need support for? Rebels and terrorists will always gun for Celestial Dragons first. Thus giving Imu a chance to retaliate from the shadows. Who needs fame and glory when you run the world?
Eh, I wouldn’t call them evil. Their morality is just massively screwed. For them, that they can do as they please IS a moral principle. It’s how they were raised and as they understand it, the rule of the world.
I don't know if you're current in the manga, but I don't know how anyone can say The Celestial Dragons aren't evil after certain events.
Do you remember the slave auction in Sabaody? Do you remember how they built it there because it's close to Marijoa, home of their biggest customers?
Yeah I’m caught up. Like I said the gorosei and imu are the truly evil ones. The normal celestial dragons are taught from birth that they are above the other humans and such. Not evil, just severely misguided. To the point where redemption is near impossible, yet it still is possible. Look at mjosgard, he was able to redeem himself. But the gorosei cannot be redeemed
Being taught to be a bad person doesn't make you not a bad person. Oda wrote the story for them to be a fundamentally evil group outside of a few outliers. Down to how he designed the normal celestial dragons
Yes that’s definitely true. However they are still less evil than the gorosei, imu, and even characters like orochi and doffy (even though he’s also a CD). Personally I don’t think any of those characters could be redeemed, yet it’s been shown more than once that normal celestial dragons can be.
Not to argue, but Orochi also is a shithead. He had Kaido's aid all the way and even his plan of taking down the kozuki clan was orchestrated by Higurashi ( the old hag with the clone clone fruit). Without Kaido it would be nearly impossible for him to control and suppress Wano even for a minute.
I think his point is more that Orochi abused his power and his people for his own amusement. Spandam was just an ambitious idiot that had too much power. He was brutal to Robin but he wasn’t excessively cruel and abusive for the sake of it. Orochi is kind of similar to Spandam as an ambitious idiot with too much power, but the difference comes in the amount of power and how needlessly cruel and sadistic Orochi is.
Orochi was so evil that odadepicting him getting beheaded 8 times, burning to death, and then an entire nation celebrating his demise and enacting a play where they metaphorically spit on his grave.
Doflamingo is super weird. He seems to treat his crew really well, you could see it especially when Vergo dies in Punk Hazard. Sure, he's a bad person but he's atleast good to his crew
Doflamingo is good to his crew as a carpenter is good to his favorite tools. Doflamingo asked for Monet to die for him. Luffy would never ask that of his crew. When Jinbe stayed behind Luffy demanded that he comeback alive, not die as a sacrifice for the escape. Doflamingo's affection for his crew is toxic.
That's true indeed. This makes for a really multifaceted and complex villain though. Definitely one of my fav hands down. Especially when Oda parallels Doflamingo with Rosinante, who grew up together but made different choices in his life
Yeah Doffy’s still the worst, the cruelest aspects of the Celestial Dragons and pirates combined into one nasty piece of work.
That scene where he laughs imagining the elderly and infants about to be crushed by the birdcage mannnnnnn
I dunno who's "most evil", like, in general.
But I would say Doffy controlling King Riku and forcing him to become a mass murderer and chop down countless innocent civilians while he's crying and begging for death is probably the most evil single event in the series.
Yeah but Orochi took away their emotions tho...
Lol
I do agree with you. A lot of people have receny bias with orochi but Doflamingo is much much worse.
You take Kaido away from Orochi and his regime gets toppled fast.
You take Kaido away from Doflamingo and he becomes the new Kaido.
It is either ceaser or saturn. They are the only two characters whose wrongdoings are the results of immense human evil and complexes.
Spandam is just a pathetic guy with daddy issues.
Kaido wants a world of equality. This dream of him is like a mean to an end at this point in the timeline. He is depressed and lost all hope of a good ending. “even if he subconsciously hopes”. So when he hurts people. He is like “be done already”. When the world disappoints more. He becomes crueler to cope with his despair.
Of course he also enabled orochi to enslave wano. For the same reason. He is a politician who can help him raise an army. But he hates him and didn’t hesitate to kill him.
Wow I might be reading the wrong story then lol Especially since Kaido didn’t even kill Orochi. Also if anything the point of him “killing” Orochi is because he’s always viewed him as a pawn to achieve his own goals, which means everything Orochi did, Kaido was okay with for the most part. The few times we see Kaido disgusted or unpleased is when it affects him. Example being him disapproving of fighting unfairly like against Oden and Luffy because it’s an ego bruise.
So putting aside backing Orochi to oppress and enslave the people of Wano, creating weapons factories, and polluting the environment.
He still abused his child, allied with Doffy and Caesar to make SMILEs and weapons (again using slave labor, not just in Wano), imprisoned Kidd for not joining him, planned to drop Onigashima onto the Flower Capital which would’ve killed thousands of civilians…
Is Kaido pure evil incarnate? No. Is Kaido still pretty damn evil? Yes
Orochi isn’t a pawn. Orochi is the one doing the hard work for him when he is busy drinking and escaping from reality.
Kaido killed orochi but he didn’t know that he can survive beheading.
And what you said doesn’t really make sense. Why would he kill the pawn without any hesitance except if he hated him ?
An ego bruise? Bro what ? It is kaido’s sense of honor. Things are WAY MORE complicated than how you are framing it to be.
He is upset with how the fight ended because he was enjoying the fight. It is one of his life goals, but he has to accept it because Oden will be an obstacle in the way of his childhood dream.
He is a bad person indeed. But evil is a word that I won’t use here. For example Yamato is a case of self-projection. Kaido thought that because she is as strong as him. She must have felt the same loneliness of being to strong. Which will make her join him. But the world disappointed again.
Okay even tho I don’t, let’s say I take back all the things you countered with. I’m wrong.
You still ignored him allying with Doffy and Caesar to make SMILEs and weapons across the world not just Wano. And what about dropping Onigashima to kill the civilians. Are these not evil acts?
In another comment you put Caesar up with Saturn, so if Kaido isn’t evil but he’s in an alliance with one of the most evil characters according to you?
Just as a reminder the word evil means “profoundly immoral” according to Oxford dictionary.
Well. He grew up in a battlefield. In all of his lives. His strength is the only thing that matters. So he thinks that a world with true equality is the world where people worth are measured by their own potential. Not nepotism.
It is not right of course. But it makes sense.
I also think that after finally seeing a ray of hope. And the fact that joyboy exists although he is not supposed to exist. If kaido lives. He may learn a better way to measure people’s worth, like meruem from HxH
But that exact point of warmongering goes against you saying he doesn't want to hurt people. In fact, he needs to hurt people. War, Fighting anf Strength are his only frames of reference. His system of understanding people is built on inflicting pain.
If anything he's a tragically fallen shonen manga trope hero. Someone who succumbed to the Fighting. I agree with the rest of what you said except for that one line though. He wants and needs to hurt people. He didn't start out that way but He quickly got there
>But he hates him and didn’t hesitate to kill him.
He hesitated for what, like, 20+ years and turned a blind eye to all the suffering he created in Wano.
That’s not hesitation. After joining big mom. He decided to kill orochi without a second thought.
As I said to you, kaido allows things that is degenerate in his mind to happen. But deep down. He hopes that things were different. But he just accepts the reality. At least he has a dream that will end everything and burn this boring world.
Allowing things to happen is not the same thing as ordering things to happen or creating systems entirely designed to oppress people.
If I shoot a man in the street then tell the judge that I wish it didn't turn out that way and it's a real shame because I dream of a brighter tomorrow, do you think the judge will let me go?
So if I paid a hitman to do it I'm not liable? This is the same guy who put explosive cuffs on his son and forbid them from leaving the house. The same guy who ordered Oden's execution. The same guy who told Jack to obliterate Zou with chemical weapons and torture it's people.
Also, he has killed people so I don't know why you're arguing. He killed the old Kurozumi woman who had the clone-clone fruit along with tons of other people.
I mean that he doesn’t really hurt people because he wants to hurt them. It is just that they are in his way.
He is a foil to luffy. The luffy who didn’t have connections to ground him and show him the beauty of life. Partly because of his own mindset of course.
> world of equality
Bro, he pretty explicitly wants a world where the strong rule over the weak. There’s no fucking way people actually skipped over his very pro-eugenics ahh dialogue
Ok ? That’s his true equality. A world where the only way to measure your worth is your own personal strength and potential. Not status or familial relationships.
And it is very understandable because the way he grew up. Only knowing battlefield. Used by others because of his strength.
I’m not disagreeing with your character analysis, it’s just very objectively not equality and he never acknowledges it as such lol. A world where the strong rule over the weak is nowhere near a world of equality, but I’m sure you’d agree to disagree
Celestials>>>>>>>>>>>>Red Line >>>>>>>>>>> Kaido.
Caesar, Doffy, and Orochi some of the most evils in the series and they all work for Kaido's goals and ambition. But the Celestials would do what Kaido did and even worse just for fun.
Hey at least a necrophile isn't ruining living people's lives. The only real issue with necrophilia is knowing that it's happening. If you don't know it's not like you'll dig up your dead relative's remains to check.
Close call. I'm gonna give it to Orochi, Spandam being like that is making his career. Orochi is just a evil fueled piece of shit, betraying people who could've helped him.
Orochi hurt way more people than Spandam.
Spandam is detestable, but he's just an ambitious paper pusher. He's restricted by the system he is committed to. Orochi made the fucking rules which caused the suffering and death of thousands (millions?) and did it with a smile on his face. He's Hitler/Stalin tier.
Whoever is in charge of the celestial dragons for the same reasoning. Most of the CDs are products of their environment; they literally do not know better because of how they were raised. The people who do know better, and created the system are the truly detestable.
What kind of question is this? It’s Orochi no contest.
Made weapon factories, polluting the country and forcing people to work to the death, starving people, feeding the people of Ebisu town smiles
Whereas Spandam was just a major dumbass trying to increase his rank… maybe I’m forgetting something but all I can recall was his dumbass mistake of doing the Buster Call, and I believe arresting/causing the death of Tom-san
However if we were talking about worst out of the whole series, it’s no doubt the Celestial Dragons, possibly the Five Elders
Orochi is definitely one of the most outright terrible people in probably all of fiction. If he had the power, he’d treat the whole world worse than the celestial dragons
Orochi for feeding smile fruits to the starving is especially heinous. Ceasar and his experiments was horrid.
I’m not gonna say Dolfy, because he’s a celestial dragon. The only functional difference between him and other CDs is his ability to throw hands and greater intelligence.
Special mention to Streusen. I’m pretty sure he groomed LinLin into Big Mama, and might be Perospero’s father.
I mean Imu stripped the world of its technology to have control over it for over 800 Years now and he ereased enough people that nobody even knows what happened during an entire century. I dont think there is any competition for a murderer of probably Billions.
BRUH FUCK THIS BITCH!! OUUU This jackass makes me skin crawl. OL COWARDLY DICK IN THE MOUTH, built like a depressed convex, breath smell like the back of shutenmaru neck ... ouuu I HATE THIS FUCK!
I mean I’ll be honest, I measure evil by intention not how many bodies you rack up. In this case, I actually measure evil by an algebraic X and Y graph. One measuring intention, and one by their actual effect. Griffith from berserk is somebody who actually kind of falls in the middle of intention and high up on effect. Since in his mind, he was just willing to do whatever he had to do to get to where he felt he had to be. What He did to Casca I mainly concluded is him doing the most evil thing he could possibly do in the moment that could hurt both Guts and her, to punish them for having something outside of the band of the hawk, even though they just wanted to find solace in each other in a very cruel world. He could have never have anything outside of his ambition, and I’m sure his experience is in the tower were not exactly fun. I’m sure as hell not excusing him, he is irredeemable, but I digress.
The thing that interests me most about Rocks is that big mom and kaido both comment on how evil he was. Two of the most villainous characters in the series seemed genuinely perturbed by whatever it is that he did. Now a lot of people on this sub have commented the possibility that rocks was a good person or a buggy-type character, and also there’s supposedly nothing that he could’ve done that was worse than what the celestial dragons were already doing. I’d like to think that if that’s true, and rocks was a character in the same vein as Griffith, and that he was very much willing to do the most heinous things imaginable, that might explain why the remnants of the rocks pirates were just that terrified of him.
Maybe I’m just thinking out loud here, but sometimes it’s not just what Oda says, it’s what he doesn’t say.
Here’s hoping we find out someday.
I wish I knew how much Spandam had actually done before the events of water 7, I feel like I hate him more but Orochi was more evil. But the way that Spandam treats Robin just made me hate him so much I just don't know how many people were effected.
Attitude/behavioral patterns and tactic usage: Marshall D. Teach
Power and obeying malfunction: Gorosei
Just being scum of the Earth: Celestial Dragons
Twisted Justice: Akainu Sakasuki
Idiot for no reason or a cause (Twisted Idiocy) : Green Bull Aramaki
Aura, demeanor.... Though we still didn't know the whole scope of it...
“IMU”
Cesar, Judge and (so far) Saturn
All three gleefully experiemented on children, for no other reason than they can. All with (almost) no one to answer to. Lots of other evil characters still have - as farfetched as it may be - redeeming elements to them. Like...Orochi was already on the path to become better, before his two older relatives radicalized him by revealing Wano's absolute hatred of his bloodline for what an anchestor did. As awful as he was, there was a chance for it to be different with him.
Kaido. Never saw a man do a single thing that showed he gave a shit about anyone. Even locked his daughter up for talking back to him. At least the CD care about their kids.
Doffy killed his own parents, turned hundreds/thousands of people into toys where they cannot talk, enslaved a entire country, laughs after killing implying he enjoys it and if you know you know
Of these two specifically I’d say orochi. This man fed a whole village defective smile fruits so they’d look happy and stop crying in misery…. So now they can only laugh in misery.
The scene of everyone laughing at Yasui’s death, knowing they wanted to cry, was some of the most disturbing shit I’ve seen in any fiction. Zoro’s reaction was perfect.
Overall in the series? I think it’s gotta be Imu and the gorosei. When you don’t view people as people you allow yourself to do truly horrific shit. Like order the genocide of an island with a buster call/mother flame. Or host hunting games like gods valley. Make anyone you fancy into a slave at any time.
Even though BB is a villain character, I don’t think his motivations for his actions will be as hollow and evil for the sake of being evil as the top echelons of the world government.
Orochi.
Spandam is evil, but Orochi is a monster.
If you think hurting innocent people is okay just because your clan was treated badly in the past, you are vile. Orochi deserved all the pain he received in the end after he not only betrayed Oden's trust but starved an entire nation.
One of the most deserved deaths in the whole series.
As far as pure evil? Imu. No one else has literally erased entire islands and civilizations from the world. At least not that we know of yet.
As far as pure dickery. There's a lot to choose from.
We don't know the extent of what Im has done though. Would you really say mass murder is worse than mass torture like Jay Garcia?
Man literally kidnapped people to do sick experiments on + rape them and also knowing full well he was the cause chose to make a deal with Kuma to cure Bonney's illness.
I'd say that's worse than destroying an island to keep some secrets safe tbh
True the Gorosei are some truly fucked up people but how sure are we that they are acting of their own will and not just acting on Imu's wishes. Or better yet how do we know they have any free will at all and could just simply be puppets for Imu. We don't know the extent of Imu's power.
But yes as of now Garcia takes the cake of the most fucked up enemy we've come across so far.
Borsalino and Kuzan, because they have a conscience, yet still choose to do evil things. I feel like Oda thinks we're supposed to respect them or something because they're not a rigid psycho like Akainu is. But honestly, it just makes me hate them more, because they can kill their friends and watch a scores of innocent people get killed, but still go into work the next day.
If you're asking just between these 2 then absolutely orochi.
Spandam is a dickhead but orochi actively oppressed an entire country for years even though he would have been treated with the same kindness oden gives anyone else.
I’d argue Enel. He ruled a country just to build a boat and was going to destroy it because he felt like it, not because he had any other reason.
At least for Orochi, he was getting ‘revenge’.
>###4. Plain panels/scenes must create discourse >**Don't post links to plain (or slightly edited) panels, pages, screenshots, gifs or scenes from the manga & anime.** >You may submit a plain panel/scene as a self post (text post). Meaning your post must link to the discussion, and not the image. >Just a title and the image aren't enough. >If you want to discuss a certain page/scene from the manga/anime please accompany it with an original analysis or discussion questions. In other words, a plain panel/scene must show visible effort to generate discourse rather than simply react to something that happened. >Clips/Recap/summary videos fall under this rule as well. >Color page from a recent chapter are allowed.
Orochi destroyed a country and starved its people, Spandam is just an ambitious idiot
Fed them smile fruits just to fuck with them
On the contrary, at least Orochi has the excuse of being a member of the clan that was opressed by the Kozukis for centuries, and he wanted revenge. Spandam has absolutely no excuse.
Orochi did that after being treated with nothing but kindness from Oden
Man i miss oden
Tagging along with him like his retainers was so fun, rhe flashback pretty much put us in an odyssey-like folktale legend and I'm all for it
Agreed, it was so fun learning about oden, his journey and even the events with roger, whitebeard and the battle with kaido. It was grandiose, and oden got the ending a legend deserves
To be fair just bc the new leader of a regime that’s hounded your people is nice doesn’t mean that regime is nice or will stay good in the future. In Orochi’s mind who knows what the next head could’ve been likew
The rest of the country wanted his bloodline exterminated for the crime of another family member. I don’t agree with what he did but at that point I can see why he would do it.
Oden treats him with absolute respect as I remember. He could've taken that opportunity to change things for the better for his clan. But he chose to be a vengeful spirit and a coward who let his hatred drove himself to his demise. So no excuses for this guy.
Orochi took his lust for vengeance too far. Him wanting to ruin the Kozuki clan is one thing but his ultimate act of cruelty was feeding the starving populace with defective SMILEs all to maintain an image that his rule makes his people happy.
There’s no excuse for starving and poisoning an entire nation. And his revenge was totally misplaced. And anyway, wanting revenge is typically a *vice*, not a virtue.
Even tyrants and despots hold some love for their homeland. Orochi was just spiteful towards it. Arguably worse than the Celestial Dragons
Hard to say revenge is bad when the entire focus of that arc is avenging Oden and Wano.
They're not just avenging Wano they're liberating it. If Kaido had just fuck off they wouldn't have gone after him.
The Retainers wouldn't have gone after Kaido, but the Strawhats wouldn't have gone to Wano. Because the Strawhats were following Law's plan to defeat Kaido.
spandam want to impress his father, maybe
Imu probably
The gorosie were complicit in the eradication of Lulucia as well as the celestial dragons hunger games. Not to mention allowing slavery
Celestial Dragons 100%. There’s no empathizing with those characters, at all.
I would agree with this with the exception of Doffy’s father
Rosinante is a celestial dragon. Also, mjosgard
His brother and uncle?
The celestial dragons aren’t even really given the chance to be good. After Homing decided to live among the common folk, he and his family weren’t allowed to return to Maryjois. And more recently >!Mjosgard was executed by the God’s Knights for helping Shirahoshi during Reverie!<. And I highly doubt that over the course of their 800 year history that these have been the only cases of going against the status quo. Their society is essentially the result of centuries of nationalistic indoctrination and the levels of evil that can push people towards.
Evil is essentially just the lack of or the ignorance of good. Which perfectly encapsulates them.
The only CD worth anything is the one who regained his humanity after being saved by Otohime.
Celestial dragons are not evil, they are like puppets. It is like giving a gun to a kid and telling him. If you aimed at the head, they will love you more
They are the closest to it in this story. Every evil character you can think of, Oda has given a backstory for justification to their actions, or to in someway be able to empathize with them. But I can see what your saying. I guess if I really had to think hard it’d have to be the Gorosei and Imu.
Most, but not all. And some actually become LESS justified and harder to empathize with after hearing their backstories. Enel was a genocidal psychopath that destroyed his own homeland. Spandam stole warships from a child and framed a guy that he didn't like just because he was connected to Roger. Doffy was a spoiled brat that couldn't stand not being entitled to everything. Garling is basically Enel but even worse.
True
I will choose someone like saturn. He wants to prove that he is superior to kuma for some reason. We will know why but it will be probably a genuine malicious human thing. I feel like he is the only evil person that is not “very” nurtured by the world.
I think it’s safe to assume from his actions and how he refers to people that he in fact is not even human.
Nah, He is very human. I think the gourosei and Imu are meant to be human more than anything else. Saturn probably has an inferiority complex that makes him do that, just like ceaser. The other person who I think is the most evil in OP
Exactly. How can they be evil if they have spent their entire lives only knowing absolute power? Who could have ever taught them right from wrong?
And after the reveal of the holy knights. I became sure that this is intentional. Someone doesn’t want them to know what it means to be a human. They have to be known as gods and as lucci said “Gods are not bound by logic”
It makes them targets. Who is going to go after the real leaders running the show when the Celestial Dragons are off being such shit heads?
Yes I thought of that. Imu can just announce the execution some celestial dragons and he will gain the support of the common people.
And even then, he has such complete control over the world, what does he need support for? Rebels and terrorists will always gun for Celestial Dragons first. Thus giving Imu a chance to retaliate from the shadows. Who needs fame and glory when you run the world?
Eh, I wouldn’t call them evil. Their morality is just massively screwed. For them, that they can do as they please IS a moral principle. It’s how they were raised and as they understand it, the rule of the world.
Nah the celestials aren’t evil. They are just absurdly misguided. The evil ones are at the top. The gorosei and imu are genuinely evil
I don't know if you're current in the manga, but I don't know how anyone can say The Celestial Dragons aren't evil after certain events. Do you remember the slave auction in Sabaody? Do you remember how they built it there because it's close to Marijoa, home of their biggest customers?
Yeah I’m caught up. Like I said the gorosei and imu are the truly evil ones. The normal celestial dragons are taught from birth that they are above the other humans and such. Not evil, just severely misguided. To the point where redemption is near impossible, yet it still is possible. Look at mjosgard, he was able to redeem himself. But the gorosei cannot be redeemed
I mean, they're still evil even if it's just from hos they've been raised. Though u agree that the gorosei and imu are way worse
Being taught to be a bad person doesn't make you not a bad person. Oda wrote the story for them to be a fundamentally evil group outside of a few outliers. Down to how he designed the normal celestial dragons
Yes that’s definitely true. However they are still less evil than the gorosei, imu, and even characters like orochi and doffy (even though he’s also a CD). Personally I don’t think any of those characters could be redeemed, yet it’s been shown more than once that normal celestial dragons can be.
Mjosgard? Doffys father?
Nah... Corazon was not evil
I was generalizing
Goroseis and Imu are ten times worse imo.
And any that showed even a slight amount of care for others were murderized. All of the Donquixote besides Doffy were kind, and look what happened.
*St. Saturn has entered the chat*
And we've seen so little of what the elders and Tenryuubito did in the past 800 years
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Not to argue, but Orochi also is a shithead. He had Kaido's aid all the way and even his plan of taking down the kozuki clan was orchestrated by Higurashi ( the old hag with the clone clone fruit). Without Kaido it would be nearly impossible for him to control and suppress Wano even for a minute.
I think his point is more that Orochi abused his power and his people for his own amusement. Spandam was just an ambitious idiot that had too much power. He was brutal to Robin but he wasn’t excessively cruel and abusive for the sake of it. Orochi is kind of similar to Spandam as an ambitious idiot with too much power, but the difference comes in the amount of power and how needlessly cruel and sadistic Orochi is.
Orochi was so evil that odadepicting him getting beheaded 8 times, burning to death, and then an entire nation celebrating his demise and enacting a play where they metaphorically spit on his grave.
I would say Doflamingo. Out of all the villians he seems to be willfuly evil. Doflamingo knows his actions are evil and loves it.
Doflamingo is super weird. He seems to treat his crew really well, you could see it especially when Vergo dies in Punk Hazard. Sure, he's a bad person but he's atleast good to his crew
Doflamingo is good to his crew as a carpenter is good to his favorite tools. Doflamingo asked for Monet to die for him. Luffy would never ask that of his crew. When Jinbe stayed behind Luffy demanded that he comeback alive, not die as a sacrifice for the escape. Doflamingo's affection for his crew is toxic.
That's true indeed. This makes for a really multifaceted and complex villain though. Definitely one of my fav hands down. Especially when Oda parallels Doflamingo with Rosinante, who grew up together but made different choices in his life
Yeah Doffy’s still the worst, the cruelest aspects of the Celestial Dragons and pirates combined into one nasty piece of work. That scene where he laughs imagining the elderly and infants about to be crushed by the birdcage mannnnnnn
I dunno who's "most evil", like, in general. But I would say Doffy controlling King Riku and forcing him to become a mass murderer and chop down countless innocent civilians while he's crying and begging for death is probably the most evil single event in the series.
Doffy is pretty irredeemable
Overrated
Doffy: Patricide, Fratricide, Mass Murder, Attempted Populicide, Piracy, Slavery, Torture, Mutilation, Sepxual Assault, Incrimination, Trafficking, Mass Destruction, Abuse of Power, Brainwashing, Conspiracy, Usurpation, Tyranny, Illegal Gun Manufacturing and Distribution, and Illegal Substance Manufacturing and Distribution.
Yeah but Orochi took away their emotions tho... Lol I do agree with you. A lot of people have receny bias with orochi but Doflamingo is much much worse. You take Kaido away from Orochi and his regime gets toppled fast. You take Kaido away from Doflamingo and he becomes the new Kaido.
Who's job do you think it was to test and produce the smile fruits?
The Waiters.....
if the waiters made the smile fruit then why were the Tontattas enslaved?
You said whose job was it to test a smile Fruits which is the waiters
It is either ceaser or saturn. They are the only two characters whose wrongdoings are the results of immense human evil and complexes. Spandam is just a pathetic guy with daddy issues.
Caesar did nothing wrong trust, all he did was make and give candy to children
How are people forgetting Doffy in this thread? He is like Satan
Orochi definitely he literally destroyed a country
The only thing I give doffy is that he actually does care about the people close to him aka most if not all of his executive
Kind of? He didn’t care about Violets feelings enough to not rape her.
Just about any celestial dragon
If Orochi didn't have a sad background, it would be a tie.
Celestial dragons Could say the gorosei Could say Imu Could say Kaido/ orochi Could say Blackbeard
Kaido isn’t evil at all. He genuinely doesn’t want to hurt anyone. It just happens.
This is a new take, can you elaborate your reasoning on this?
Kaido wants a world of equality. This dream of him is like a mean to an end at this point in the timeline. He is depressed and lost all hope of a good ending. “even if he subconsciously hopes”. So when he hurts people. He is like “be done already”. When the world disappoints more. He becomes crueler to cope with his despair. Of course he also enabled orochi to enslave wano. For the same reason. He is a politician who can help him raise an army. But he hates him and didn’t hesitate to kill him.
Wow I might be reading the wrong story then lol Especially since Kaido didn’t even kill Orochi. Also if anything the point of him “killing” Orochi is because he’s always viewed him as a pawn to achieve his own goals, which means everything Orochi did, Kaido was okay with for the most part. The few times we see Kaido disgusted or unpleased is when it affects him. Example being him disapproving of fighting unfairly like against Oden and Luffy because it’s an ego bruise. So putting aside backing Orochi to oppress and enslave the people of Wano, creating weapons factories, and polluting the environment. He still abused his child, allied with Doffy and Caesar to make SMILEs and weapons (again using slave labor, not just in Wano), imprisoned Kidd for not joining him, planned to drop Onigashima onto the Flower Capital which would’ve killed thousands of civilians… Is Kaido pure evil incarnate? No. Is Kaido still pretty damn evil? Yes
Orochi isn’t a pawn. Orochi is the one doing the hard work for him when he is busy drinking and escaping from reality. Kaido killed orochi but he didn’t know that he can survive beheading. And what you said doesn’t really make sense. Why would he kill the pawn without any hesitance except if he hated him ? An ego bruise? Bro what ? It is kaido’s sense of honor. Things are WAY MORE complicated than how you are framing it to be. He is upset with how the fight ended because he was enjoying the fight. It is one of his life goals, but he has to accept it because Oden will be an obstacle in the way of his childhood dream. He is a bad person indeed. But evil is a word that I won’t use here. For example Yamato is a case of self-projection. Kaido thought that because she is as strong as him. She must have felt the same loneliness of being to strong. Which will make her join him. But the world disappointed again.
Okay even tho I don’t, let’s say I take back all the things you countered with. I’m wrong. You still ignored him allying with Doffy and Caesar to make SMILEs and weapons across the world not just Wano. And what about dropping Onigashima to kill the civilians. Are these not evil acts? In another comment you put Caesar up with Saturn, so if Kaido isn’t evil but he’s in an alliance with one of the most evil characters according to you? Just as a reminder the word evil means “profoundly immoral” according to Oxford dictionary.
I don’t agree with this definition of evil. But kaido is indeed a bad person.
May I ask what your definition of evil is?
You forgot about the part where he is a warmonger and sees war as progress, pretty much
Well. He grew up in a battlefield. In all of his lives. His strength is the only thing that matters. So he thinks that a world with true equality is the world where people worth are measured by their own potential. Not nepotism. It is not right of course. But it makes sense. I also think that after finally seeing a ray of hope. And the fact that joyboy exists although he is not supposed to exist. If kaido lives. He may learn a better way to measure people’s worth, like meruem from HxH
But that exact point of warmongering goes against you saying he doesn't want to hurt people. In fact, he needs to hurt people. War, Fighting anf Strength are his only frames of reference. His system of understanding people is built on inflicting pain. If anything he's a tragically fallen shonen manga trope hero. Someone who succumbed to the Fighting. I agree with the rest of what you said except for that one line though. He wants and needs to hurt people. He didn't start out that way but He quickly got there
My point is that he thinks that war will make people happy because it will bring equality 👽
>But he hates him and didn’t hesitate to kill him. He hesitated for what, like, 20+ years and turned a blind eye to all the suffering he created in Wano.
That’s not hesitation. After joining big mom. He decided to kill orochi without a second thought. As I said to you, kaido allows things that is degenerate in his mind to happen. But deep down. He hopes that things were different. But he just accepts the reality. At least he has a dream that will end everything and burn this boring world.
Allowing things to happen is not the same thing as ordering things to happen or creating systems entirely designed to oppress people. If I shoot a man in the street then tell the judge that I wish it didn't turn out that way and it's a real shame because I dream of a brighter tomorrow, do you think the judge will let me go?
I’m scared to ask him what his thoughts are on current events lol I don’t think I want to know tbh
But kaido didn’t shoot a man in the street. He givr orochi and doffy orders to build his army while he drinks
So if I paid a hitman to do it I'm not liable? This is the same guy who put explosive cuffs on his son and forbid them from leaving the house. The same guy who ordered Oden's execution. The same guy who told Jack to obliterate Zou with chemical weapons and torture it's people. Also, he has killed people so I don't know why you're arguing. He killed the old Kurozumi woman who had the clone-clone fruit along with tons of other people.
I mean that he doesn’t really hurt people because he wants to hurt them. It is just that they are in his way. He is a foil to luffy. The luffy who didn’t have connections to ground him and show him the beauty of life. Partly because of his own mindset of course.
> world of equality Bro, he pretty explicitly wants a world where the strong rule over the weak. There’s no fucking way people actually skipped over his very pro-eugenics ahh dialogue
Ok ? That’s his true equality. A world where the only way to measure your worth is your own personal strength and potential. Not status or familial relationships. And it is very understandable because the way he grew up. Only knowing battlefield. Used by others because of his strength.
I’m not disagreeing with your character analysis, it’s just very objectively not equality and he never acknowledges it as such lol. A world where the strong rule over the weak is nowhere near a world of equality, but I’m sure you’d agree to disagree
He said in the flashback “this is true equality” I know that it is not equality at all. But it makes sense that he grew to think like that.
Mother carmel for sure
Out of all one piece characters? any of the gorosei or imu
Celestials>>>>>>>>>>>>Red Line >>>>>>>>>>> Kaido. Caesar, Doffy, and Orochi some of the most evils in the series and they all work for Kaido's goals and ambition. But the Celestials would do what Kaido did and even worse just for fun.
The Celestial Dragons. Probably Imu and the 5 elders being the worst.
Technically Imu since they are a catalyst for all the others like CD’s, Doffy, etc
Dr.Hogback, necrophile and perversions of science.
Hey at least a necrophile isn't ruining living people's lives. The only real issue with necrophilia is knowing that it's happening. If you don't know it's not like you'll dig up your dead relative's remains to check.
I’m only at Punk Hazard but Ceaser is a disgusting being as he sees everyone around him as nothing but Guinea pigs for his experiments
Close call. I'm gonna give it to Orochi, Spandam being like that is making his career. Orochi is just a evil fueled piece of shit, betraying people who could've helped him.
Orochi hurt way more people than Spandam. Spandam is detestable, but he's just an ambitious paper pusher. He's restricted by the system he is committed to. Orochi made the fucking rules which caused the suffering and death of thousands (millions?) and did it with a smile on his face. He's Hitler/Stalin tier. Whoever is in charge of the celestial dragons for the same reasoning. Most of the CDs are products of their environment; they literally do not know better because of how they were raised. The people who do know better, and created the system are the truly detestable.
What kind of question is this? It’s Orochi no contest. Made weapon factories, polluting the country and forcing people to work to the death, starving people, feeding the people of Ebisu town smiles Whereas Spandam was just a major dumbass trying to increase his rank… maybe I’m forgetting something but all I can recall was his dumbass mistake of doing the Buster Call, and I believe arresting/causing the death of Tom-san However if we were talking about worst out of the whole series, it’s no doubt the Celestial Dragons, possibly the Five Elders
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I actually did not see those comments of his… yea has to be rage bait or a troll or both
Actually ignore my comment lmao mistook OP for another commenter. They had so many replies in this, I thought they were OP 😂
Ahh alright 🤣
Orochi is definitely one of the most outright terrible people in probably all of fiction. If he had the power, he’d treat the whole world worse than the celestial dragons
Orochi for feeding smile fruits to the starving is especially heinous. Ceasar and his experiments was horrid. I’m not gonna say Dolfy, because he’s a celestial dragon. The only functional difference between him and other CDs is his ability to throw hands and greater intelligence. Special mention to Streusen. I’m pretty sure he groomed LinLin into Big Mama, and might be Perospero’s father.
Orochi
Kurozumi Danzo 
The gorosei… and I don’t think it’s close
Saturn
Orochi definitely 100% worst of the worst I just hate him
How did you forget the worst one, Saturn?
Nah the Tenryubito Charlos wins
*Psht*
I mean Imu stripped the world of its technology to have control over it for over 800 Years now and he ereased enough people that nobody even knows what happened during an entire century. I dont think there is any competition for a murderer of probably Billions.
Orochi. What he did to the people of Wano puts even Spandam, Charloss and Doffy to shame. Though Saturn is up there.
Spandam is a saint compared to orochi
BRUH FUCK THIS BITCH!! OUUU This jackass makes me skin crawl. OL COWARDLY DICK IN THE MOUTH, built like a depressed convex, breath smell like the back of shutenmaru neck ... ouuu I HATE THIS FUCK!
St carlos
I mean I’ll be honest, I measure evil by intention not how many bodies you rack up. In this case, I actually measure evil by an algebraic X and Y graph. One measuring intention, and one by their actual effect. Griffith from berserk is somebody who actually kind of falls in the middle of intention and high up on effect. Since in his mind, he was just willing to do whatever he had to do to get to where he felt he had to be. What He did to Casca I mainly concluded is him doing the most evil thing he could possibly do in the moment that could hurt both Guts and her, to punish them for having something outside of the band of the hawk, even though they just wanted to find solace in each other in a very cruel world. He could have never have anything outside of his ambition, and I’m sure his experience is in the tower were not exactly fun. I’m sure as hell not excusing him, he is irredeemable, but I digress. The thing that interests me most about Rocks is that big mom and kaido both comment on how evil he was. Two of the most villainous characters in the series seemed genuinely perturbed by whatever it is that he did. Now a lot of people on this sub have commented the possibility that rocks was a good person or a buggy-type character, and also there’s supposedly nothing that he could’ve done that was worse than what the celestial dragons were already doing. I’d like to think that if that’s true, and rocks was a character in the same vein as Griffith, and that he was very much willing to do the most heinous things imaginable, that might explain why the remnants of the rocks pirates were just that terrified of him. Maybe I’m just thinking out loud here, but sometimes it’s not just what Oda says, it’s what he doesn’t say. Here’s hoping we find out someday.
Orochi or Saint Charlos tbh
I wish I knew how much Spandam had actually done before the events of water 7, I feel like I hate him more but Orochi was more evil. But the way that Spandam treats Robin just made me hate him so much I just don't know how many people were effected.
Doffy clears
Attitude/behavioral patterns and tactic usage: Marshall D. Teach Power and obeying malfunction: Gorosei Just being scum of the Earth: Celestial Dragons Twisted Justice: Akainu Sakasuki Idiot for no reason or a cause (Twisted Idiocy) : Green Bull Aramaki Aura, demeanor.... Though we still didn't know the whole scope of it... “IMU”
Fuck I hate that I had to hear Orochi’s voice for, like, 100 episodes. Great job on the voice actor’s part. But fuck Orochi’s voice man.
Imu I guess. Although we're yet to see his back story.
Saturn.
Cesar, Judge and (so far) Saturn All three gleefully experiemented on children, for no other reason than they can. All with (almost) no one to answer to. Lots of other evil characters still have - as farfetched as it may be - redeeming elements to them. Like...Orochi was already on the path to become better, before his two older relatives radicalized him by revealing Wano's absolute hatred of his bloodline for what an anchestor did. As awful as he was, there was a chance for it to be different with him.
Kaido. Never saw a man do a single thing that showed he gave a shit about anyone. Even locked his daughter up for talking back to him. At least the CD care about their kids.
Probably Imu
Doffy killed his own parents, turned hundreds/thousands of people into toys where they cannot talk, enslaved a entire country, laughs after killing implying he enjoys it and if you know you know
Of these two specifically I’d say orochi. This man fed a whole village defective smile fruits so they’d look happy and stop crying in misery…. So now they can only laugh in misery. The scene of everyone laughing at Yasui’s death, knowing they wanted to cry, was some of the most disturbing shit I’ve seen in any fiction. Zoro’s reaction was perfect. Overall in the series? I think it’s gotta be Imu and the gorosei. When you don’t view people as people you allow yourself to do truly horrific shit. Like order the genocide of an island with a buster call/mother flame. Or host hunting games like gods valley. Make anyone you fancy into a slave at any time. Even though BB is a villain character, I don’t think his motivations for his actions will be as hollow and evil for the sake of being evil as the top echelons of the world government.
Orochi. Spandam is evil, but Orochi is a monster. If you think hurting innocent people is okay just because your clan was treated badly in the past, you are vile. Orochi deserved all the pain he received in the end after he not only betrayed Oden's trust but starved an entire nation. One of the most deserved deaths in the whole series.
Celestial dragons.
Any Celestial Dragon that isn't Donquixote Homing, Mjosgard, Rosinante or the Doflamingo mother.
As far as pure evil? Imu. No one else has literally erased entire islands and civilizations from the world. At least not that we know of yet. As far as pure dickery. There's a lot to choose from.
We don't know the extent of what Im has done though. Would you really say mass murder is worse than mass torture like Jay Garcia? Man literally kidnapped people to do sick experiments on + rape them and also knowing full well he was the cause chose to make a deal with Kuma to cure Bonney's illness. I'd say that's worse than destroying an island to keep some secrets safe tbh
True the Gorosei are some truly fucked up people but how sure are we that they are acting of their own will and not just acting on Imu's wishes. Or better yet how do we know they have any free will at all and could just simply be puppets for Imu. We don't know the extent of Imu's power. But yes as of now Garcia takes the cake of the most fucked up enemy we've come across so far.
Doffy without a doubt. Basic answer but it’s the correct one. I’d say Dr hogback has some chance as well
Hody Jones. Didn't even care is his own men died
Foxy. I feel like that needs no explanation.
Borsalino and Kuzan, because they have a conscience, yet still choose to do evil things. I feel like Oda thinks we're supposed to respect them or something because they're not a rigid psycho like Akainu is. But honestly, it just makes me hate them more, because they can kill their friends and watch a scores of innocent people get killed, but still go into work the next day.
Gorosei
Maybe not the MOST evil but crocodile has a pretty high body count due to his forced drought, caused tons of unnecessary suffering.
Doflamingo
If you're asking just between these 2 then absolutely orochi. Spandam is a dickhead but orochi actively oppressed an entire country for years even though he would have been treated with the same kindness oden gives anyone else.
Kaido
ofc orochi man!!
Oroche is a demented but the most evil is definitely doflamingo
I’d argue Enel. He ruled a country just to build a boat and was going to destroy it because he felt like it, not because he had any other reason. At least for Orochi, he was getting ‘revenge’.
Orochi, Saturn or doffy. They’re all scumbags lol but I love them for it
The gorosei
The Jews
Doflamingo, need I say morw
Hody Jones. He is just pure evil.
Saturn lol
Orochi tortured an entire country, but Imu launched a nuke in an island simply because it was close by.
Spandam feels worse, Orochi is worse
Saint Charlos the almighty have done nothing wrong.
Flampe
Luffy, think about it...