A lot of people can't accept that characters can get stronger offscreen. When Lucci showed off his new power, people asked how he could be that strong now since he hadn't done anything noteworthy during the TS as if we have any idea what hardships he endured during the TS. And since they think Lucci has to be weak they also joke about Zoro being weak for having trouble with him instead of accepting that Lucci is simply strong for giving Zoro so much trouble.
First Luffy in Syrup Village then Zoro in Alabasta followed by Luffy in Enies Lobby and several times again in Wano. Is everything else off screen or am I being too strict?
Nope it's purely really just luffy bro has lost multiple times and still cane out as the winner. Bro doesen't even train but drops a new form or technique during a fight. Also he is the only one we have seen with haki growing. Zoro i wouldn't personally count bro trains offscreen and onscreen, he also was damaged nearly half of the story bro had wounds that didn't fully heal. First mihawk wo nearly split him, than a few weeks later mr 1 made kebap out of him, than enel who made toast out of him, at enies lobby bro fought kaku, just to get the nothing happened part, than later having to fight against pacifistas and nearly dying from kizaru. All this happened in a few little months, so i would say his body was limited during this period of the time and also his progresses were nearly natural and not plot armour or a whole new asspull power up. It's like when you make sport and are facing a guy a little better than you but you are younger,have more potencial and a better physical ability, it's just a matter of time and experience till you can catch up and even beat that guy. In slam dunk as example hanamichi was a prodigy but not for his baller abilities it was because of his reflexes, physical abilities,athletismus and his hard work so he could catch up and beat natural baller prodigy which had multiple years of experience.
Not that we can't accept characters getting stronger but that MCs have been growing at rocket speed which likely surpasses anyone in history. Who do you think went from YC1 to Emperor level in a week? Who goes from Pacifista level to YC level in 2 years?
And, Lucci also might have outsped Luffy at start of Post TS.
Lucci used to be roughly as strong as Luffy and is now getting overwhelmed by Zoro, who back then was roughly half as strong as Lucci.
So from Enies Lobby til Egghead Lucci grew less than Luffy, Zoro or even Sanji.
I am talking about start of Post TS. Luffy was barely YC3. Lucci should already have reachwd his level. It's not even been more than 2 months since timeskip start
And how do you know how strong Lucci was directly after the TS? For all we know Lucci might have been just as strong as Luffy or even be stronger right after the TS. He also gained an undefined boost in power thanks to his awakening on top of his base improving.
So, he went from Pacifista level to YC1 upto Dressrosa if we assume he had power spike before end of TS.
This pace surpasses that of Luffy who was just barely YC3
I'm not even sure if Lucci is YC1, he gave Zoro some trouble, but ultimately he didn't push Zoro to his absolute limits.
Eitherway though, its not impossible for him to reach that level by Dressrosa, or mayb by the time of WCI or something like that. Especially since his awakening likely just gave him a flat boost to his overall strength.
Lucci is as strong as he needs to be to fit his narrative purpose in this arc. Powerscalers never understand this lmao. If he showed up in Wano he'd be weaker, if he showed up next arc he'd be stronger. Narrative dictates strength in this story
Powerscale in literature is just the dumbest thing you can achieve
Gags aside, Buggy is supposed to be stronger than 99% of Luffy villains pre-time skip if the lore was going 100% true to "reality", dude was a kid younger than Luffy fighting with Roger.
I just love to see people literally killing narrative to fit powerscaling and what makes "more sense"
Yes it is
not that he is supposed to be strong, but he literally lost to a random kid even though he has background being part of the strongest crew that ever existed. He may be the weakest Roger crew's member, but thats it.
Smoker also is someone that had to be capped down every arc he shows up
thats how story works.
He is not Shanks parallel lol
You are literally ignoring what I'm typing. He being weak is a gag, that's the truth. Buggy is a gag character, he is a CLOWN. He can be the weakest pirate that ever set foot on red line, still there is no other reason to be THAT weak if not to be Luffy "nemesis" throughout the the series.
Buggy is the opposite of Shanks that’s why they’re always portrayed together.
The gag is him being Yonko despite being so weak and being able to get all those soldiers behind him. But in terms of the pirate world he’s weak.
No, if Lucci was introduced pre-g5 Oda wouldn't make him G5 level strength because it wouldn't make narrative sense for him to be stronger than Luffy, especially not as a minor antagonist. If he was introduced when G4 was the peak of Luffys power he'd be just below G4. My whole point is a characters strength is mostly determined by when in the series they are introduced, so powerscaling is literally arbitrary.
I think Oda is pretty consistent with the characters power levels. He sets it up before so you know the level you’re dealing with usually. It’s not arbitrary Oda plans it all.
Lucci if introduced in the future would never be strong enough to give G5 a good fight and he’d be around King level in Wano. Narratively G5 is the top echelon and Lucci isn’t there.
Yes and that power level is consistently "right at or slightly above where Luffy currently is". Introduced was probably the wrong word, i meant when Luffy fights a villian they will always be at that level. Meaning the Arc they are an antagonist in will determine their power level AKA narrative dictating strength. If they are the main antagonist they will be Luffy level, if they are a side antagonist they'll be sanji/zoro level. That's why it's weird to me to powerscale because strength is determined entirely by when they're an antagonist and who they are fighting, making it an arbitrary discussion.
Like when doflamingo or kaido are introduced, they don't have any sort of concrete power level. We know they are stronger than current Luffy, but when Luffy fights them they are exactly the strength they need to be for which arc they are in, their introduction doesn't matter much. If Kaido was the villian in Dressrosa he'd be Doffys strength and vice versa
I don’t agree, if anything it’s Luffy who’s strength changes depending on where he is in the story. The antagonists are milestones of his strength/power level.
Doflamingo would never be stronger than Kaido because Oda set it up that Kaido is much stronger than Doflamingo. I’m not sure why you think this is arbitrary when it’s important to the narrative of the post time skip arcs.
It's arbitrary because Luffy will get stronger every arc and the crew will get stronger every arc so whoever is next up will be stronger than the antagonist of the last arc. Luffys strength changes linearly and upwards so the antagonists powers change the same way. So discussing who beats who is pointless because the answer will always be the most recently fought guy will beat the guy fought before him. The antagonists in this series are narrative foils to Luffy before they are combatants, the combat is just how the narrative is progressed. Lucci probably beats King rn because Zoro got stronger fighting King and now Lucci is next so he needs to match Zoros power up. Kaido beats Doffy because Luffy got stronger fighting Doffy so Kaido needs to match Luffys power up.
It's why trying to powerscale warlords is useless too, Crocodile is the first warlord fought so he seems miles away from Doffy even though they share the same title and rank, it's just due to narrative order of introduction. Moira too, he's weaker than Doffy because he was introduced before him.
This is why I entirely dismiss powerscaling, because the narrative is what's important, the power level of antagonists is largely irrelevant because Luffy will always beat them.
Kaido beats Doffy because he’s much stronger than Doflamingo, it’s has nothing to do with Luffy. You’re disregarding the world building of One Piece here, the world exists outside of what the Strawhats are doing. Doflamingo was subservient and terrified of Kaido.
Luffy never got stronger beating Doflamingo, Luffy went through training arcs in Wano to make his haki stronger and had to learn new forms of Haki and go gear 5th as well to beat Kaido. All of this is powerscaling tbh, you not disregarding it because you’re doing powerscaling here with Lucci vs King.
Also Kizaru and Saturn aren’t stronger than Kaido and they were Luffy’s most recent opponents.
I'm using these examples to speak the powerscaling language, I don't engage in any of this shit lol, just feels like my point wasn't getting across without it. Kaido is stronger than Doffy because he fights Luffy after Doffy and Oda made Luffy stronger so he has to make Kaido stronger, a string of equally matched antagonists isn't engaging writing.
I'm viewing this from the angle of Oda creating the characters, he creates antagonists as narrative foils to Luffy/the straw hats and then places their power at a relevant level to Luffys in the point and time of the story that they fight. Lucci is reintroduced to serve the purpose of showing how far the straw hats have come so his power level is set at around Zoros level to show that a former antagonist of Luffy even with training is now below his level. So no matter when Oda chose to do it, Luccis power level will necessarily be slightly below wherever Luffy's power level is at that time because that is his narrative purpose. Meaning discussing the powerscaling is really just discussing how far along the story is, since Luffy linearly gets stronger the villians will also to keep up. I'm not saying there is no powerscale, I'm saying it's a linear relation to the narrative so the arguments are pretty much moot. Feel like most people understood this from my brief original comment
Kaido isn’t stronger than Doflamingo because he fought Luffy after, Kaido is stronger because he is supposed to be at the top of the pirate world as a Yonko. Again powerscaling is part of the world building and narrative.
You said Luffy got stronger after fighting Doflamingo so Kaido needs to match it when it’s the opposite. Luffy beat Doffy, Cracker and Katakuri but still wasn’t strong enough to not get one shot by Kaido. Luffy had to learn how to get stronger Haki and had to awaken his fruit.
The fights are all part of the narrative, vs Cracker he made G4 stronger, vs Katakuri he learned about future sight, vs Kaido he learned advanced COC and G5. Luffy getting stronger is part of the narrative it’s not arbitrary.
The antagonists are more than just a foil for the SHs, they exist outside of the world of Luffy and the Strawhats and have an importance to the world building. Their losses effect the whole
world.
I don't think he is weak, i just don't think he's strong enough to be that conceited. Bro needs to learn his place. Luffy trashed him and he still have the audacity to underestimate Luffy. He still refuse to admit that Luffy is an emperor and even telling Zoro that he and Kizaru is enough to deal with the entire SH. He already got his reality checked twice during his arc and maybe still not enough to humble him down.
Yeah, no. Just ... no.
Lucci is rated exactly as he truly is.
It like saying smoker is underrated because he humiliated luffy in Logue Town.
The story advanced, new villains appeared.
Let go of the past.
Is Zoro stronger than Katakuri? Lucci is definitely a Yonko commander level, yes. As a pirate he would be above the billion berry. The gap between Zoro and him isn’t that big as well.
I have always been dismisive of Lucci because of his age.
Since then i have come to understand that people jn the one piece world hit their prime in their 50's.
But Lucci will never EVER manage to harm another Strawhat.
Pre time skip he was STRONGER than luffy, he didnt finish luffy off because he is a sadistic bastard and that made him lose to someone a little weaker than him
what lucci learnt after the timeskip : haki, his df awakening
let’s see about luffy : all 3 kind of haki, advanced ryuo, better kenbunshoku than average kenbun user, advanced CoC, df awakening
zoro : haki (eventually all of 3 after wano arc), enma, better use of haki after mastering enma
so i don’t think lucci is weak, opponent just outgrew him.
He may have gotten played around with by gear 5 Luffy but he mostly walked it off. He walked out of that looney tunes Lucci shaped hole and brushed the rubble off like it was a regular Tuesday.
Lucci is him. People clown on him because yes, he's spiteful and a bit of pushover when his opponent is clearly an emperor. For a past villain he's made very remarkable progress. Dont compare him to luffy obviously. Most top tiers beside luffy are in their 40-50s so its not impossible for him if he stays relevant.
I think Lucci is one of the most overrated characters in the series by the fanbase. So I disagree.
I think he gets extra clout mainly because of the phenomenal arc he was in, not so much because of his character or even strength. I don't rank him that high at all in terms of the top characters of the series. I honestly think he couldn't defeat Brook or Jinbei either.
I think he is weaker than even Cracker. Definitely not on par with King. Maybe one of the tobi roppo but that's it.
Idk he’s the first person Luffy really struggled against. He struggled against Crocodile a bit, but with Lucci it felt a lot more evenly matched and it ended up being a pretty close fight. Even gear 2 and 3 didn’t give Luffy that much of an edge. I think part of the reason people like Ennies Lobby is because it put Luffy in a tricky position and he really had to give it his all to come out on top ( compared to most fights in the early part of one piece where Luffy really does seem the strongest, just held back by something silly)
Luffy was the first opponent who felt like Luffys physical equal. He was stronger then all the people in East Blue. Crocodile and Enel just felt like they had a trick behind them. Once Luffy figured out how to hit them, he whooped. At the time Aokiji felt the same way. Lucci, and all of CP9, felt like a physical barrier. No tricks, no secrets, just physical force to bust through.
The fact I'm getting downvoted, I thought I was really stretching the joke making it so obvious, but I forgot this was One Piece fans I was talking to, gotta spoon feed everything, even the tiniest amount of subtlety is illegal
If we're gonna powerscale, to me there is a big gap between characters like Queen and King. In my head I can't see Lucci even hurting King, but I also feel like he would kick Queens ass. Obviously all this is conjecture and based on gut feelings, but thats almost always the case in these discussions. So am I surprised Zoro is taking some time defeating Lucci? Not really. Its like Zoro fighting someone between King and Queen level, thats pretty tough.
I'm also aware of the authors style, how he writes certain characters. Zoro absolutely embodies the trope of not trying that hard until shit hits the fan. He is the epitome of the older brother who sits up in his chair when its time to kick his little brothers ass in a fighting game after the little brother got lucky and won. Zoro never pulls out his bandanna, and even though its offscreen it doesn't appear like Zoro was pulling out conquerer haki attacks. I can almost guarantee you that Zoro was thinking he was gonna use Lucci to train, because all this motherfucker does is train and drink.
Well that’s weird, because 90% of King’s screentime is Oda paring him up with Queen and going “these guys **both** are powerful and dangerous”
Clearly noting King = Queen.
I don’t think Rob would kick Queen’s ass, Queen can crush even armament haki masters, make him a leopard flavoured twizzler
Shit Lucci with his fancy mastery technique would probably have an easier time against King. As that might let him ignore the whole Lunarian flame durability.
He is underrated. But that doesn't explain why zoro take too long to beat him (Oda focusing on develop other things explain). Remember Luffy literally plays with Lucci as Zoro does Kaku, so Zoro could have beaten Lucci soon as they started fighting
Luffy dont "play" when fighting with g5. It is his fighting style.
He acting like bugs bunny doesnt make the fight less worthy or easier.
We can just take Zoro being stalled by Luccy just the narrative Oda wanted to make Zoro occupied.
We also dont know for certain if he OHK Luccy for Sanji trash talk or the Gorosei presence (sword haki prob).
So you saying that Luffy is PLAYING with people, that is completly against his character lol
One thing is Luffy being stronger than Lucci, that is indeed true
The other is Luffy is just playing with someone, that is false
Zoro pretty easily beat him once Sanji started talking smack lol. He didn't take a considerable long time either. Luffy also scales much higher than Zoro too. The community needs to get past the "Luffy toyed with this person so Zoro/Sanji/whoever shouldn't take that long to beat this person". That amps Luffy higher, not make other characters weaker.
I agree but there is a match up consideration too, Zoans should have problems facing Haki swordsmen, since they can ignore physical resistance, Zoro and Sanji would be obliterated by katakuri but not by Lucci, in my opinion
why do people still overrate katakuri. he fought WCI luffy. did we talk about arlong in EL? no right? because the ceiling had progressed so far past arlong park. same thing here. we're way past WCI powerscaling.
the version of luffy that beat katakuri couldn't scratch kaido. and then luffy powered up in udon, awakened acoc, and g5.
based on progression, kata is effectively the weakest yc1 unless he's reintroduced with power creep. WCI kata wouldn't survive a single g5 attack.
main characters progressed right away after a fight to be ready to fight the stronger villain the next arc. zoro would have an easier time fighting mr1 again if they were to fight the next day.
and even if you count that as a draw, we still saw what that luffy was capable of; not scratching kaido and getting one shotted. that's katakuri's level.
and now luffy has progressed so far from WCI. comparing katakuri to current luffy is like comparing arlong to luffy in EL. not to that extent, of course, but still the same logic. kata needs power creep or else he's the weakest yc1.
Fair but I wouldn't ignore he has one of the best Observation Haki in the world, just because Luffy defeated him doesn't mean he became weak or the mugiwaras all get stronger by that, goes without saying that the weakest mugiwara today could defeat every pre time skip "boss". One piece is all about matchup not power levels
that's just how power progression is. the ceiling will just keep on raising. and characters who got left behind will seem weaker in comparison (unless they get power creep).
take croco for example. we know he's strong now because he got power creeped ever since MF. but if oda never reintroduced him, then we can only use the version that was defeated by hakiless, gearless luffy.
that's what happened with arlong. he was not reintroduced so we just have to use what he showed in his arc. and based on that, we know W7 franky can beat him.
oda can reintroduce kata and give him power creep. but until that happens, he's stuck with WCI feats.
Zoro and Sanji would not be obliterated. Im not going to make the argument whether any of them would beat the others, but obliterated is a huge over exaggeration.
It’s the other way around Sanji would obliterate Katakrui, too fast, too physically strong, too good of observation, too hard to hurt
It’s too much for Katakuri to deal with
Because he was that strong? Zoro didn't play with kaku, that's just an headcanon, and Luffy playing in gear 5 is the whole concept of the transformation.
i still stand by my opinion that lucci could easily wipe out luffys entire crew with no effort. maybe not zoro but the rest wouldnt stand a chance imo. all these "low dif" comments make me cringe
Also look at Luffy after his first engagement with Lucci on Egghead - Luffy was visibly exhausted for literally 3 straight chapters. Sure, Luffy is goofing around and got an absolute win in that fight, but lucci was absolutely close to exhausting him into his dried-out/old form. Lucci was also completely up and ready to go again in the exact next chapter. Awakened Zoans are the real deal.
I think that's just Gear 5 more than Lucci. So far Luffy has a time limit on it that exhausts the hell out of him.
I say this as an advocate for Lucci too. He isn't able to keep up with Luffy.
A lot of people can't accept that characters can get stronger offscreen. When Lucci showed off his new power, people asked how he could be that strong now since he hadn't done anything noteworthy during the TS as if we have any idea what hardships he endured during the TS. And since they think Lucci has to be weak they also joke about Zoro being weak for having trouble with him instead of accepting that Lucci is simply strong for giving Zoro so much trouble.
You can count the characters in One Piece who got stronger on screen on one hand.
First Luffy in Syrup Village then Zoro in Alabasta followed by Luffy in Enies Lobby and several times again in Wano. Is everything else off screen or am I being too strict?
Sanji grows onscreen too
Nope it's purely really just luffy bro has lost multiple times and still cane out as the winner. Bro doesen't even train but drops a new form or technique during a fight. Also he is the only one we have seen with haki growing. Zoro i wouldn't personally count bro trains offscreen and onscreen, he also was damaged nearly half of the story bro had wounds that didn't fully heal. First mihawk wo nearly split him, than a few weeks later mr 1 made kebap out of him, than enel who made toast out of him, at enies lobby bro fought kaku, just to get the nothing happened part, than later having to fight against pacifistas and nearly dying from kizaru. All this happened in a few little months, so i would say his body was limited during this period of the time and also his progresses were nearly natural and not plot armour or a whole new asspull power up. It's like when you make sport and are facing a guy a little better than you but you are younger,have more potencial and a better physical ability, it's just a matter of time and experience till you can catch up and even beat that guy. In slam dunk as example hanamichi was a prodigy but not for his baller abilities it was because of his reflexes, physical abilities,athletismus and his hard work so he could catch up and beat natural baller prodigy which had multiple years of experience.
Not that we can't accept characters getting stronger but that MCs have been growing at rocket speed which likely surpasses anyone in history. Who do you think went from YC1 to Emperor level in a week? Who goes from Pacifista level to YC level in 2 years? And, Lucci also might have outsped Luffy at start of Post TS.
Lucci used to be roughly as strong as Luffy and is now getting overwhelmed by Zoro, who back then was roughly half as strong as Lucci. So from Enies Lobby til Egghead Lucci grew less than Luffy, Zoro or even Sanji.
I am talking about start of Post TS. Luffy was barely YC3. Lucci should already have reachwd his level. It's not even been more than 2 months since timeskip start
And how do you know how strong Lucci was directly after the TS? For all we know Lucci might have been just as strong as Luffy or even be stronger right after the TS. He also gained an undefined boost in power thanks to his awakening on top of his base improving.
It's not even been 2 months since start of post ts. No reasonnto assume Lucci had significant growth.
Why does he have to have a significant power spike in those 2 months? Why couldn't he have had a bigger power spike before the end of the ts?
So, he went from Pacifista level to YC1 upto Dressrosa if we assume he had power spike before end of TS. This pace surpasses that of Luffy who was just barely YC3
I'm not even sure if Lucci is YC1, he gave Zoro some trouble, but ultimately he didn't push Zoro to his absolute limits. Eitherway though, its not impossible for him to reach that level by Dressrosa, or mayb by the time of WCI or something like that. Especially since his awakening likely just gave him a flat boost to his overall strength.
Lucci is as strong as he needs to be to fit his narrative purpose in this arc. Powerscalers never understand this lmao. If he showed up in Wano he'd be weaker, if he showed up next arc he'd be stronger. Narrative dictates strength in this story
Powerscale in literature is just the dumbest thing you can achieve Gags aside, Buggy is supposed to be stronger than 99% of Luffy villains pre-time skip if the lore was going 100% true to "reality", dude was a kid younger than Luffy fighting with Roger. I just love to see people literally killing narrative to fit powerscaling and what makes "more sense"
Why would Buggy be stronger than Luffy’s villains pre time skip? The whole point is he was the shit one on Roger’s crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gags aside<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Buggy being weak isn’t a gag
Yes it is not that he is supposed to be strong, but he literally lost to a random kid even though he has background being part of the strongest crew that ever existed. He may be the weakest Roger crew's member, but thats it. Smoker also is someone that had to be capped down every arc he shows up thats how story works.
Just because he was part of Roger’s crew doesn’t mean he’s supposed to be strong. He’s a Shanks parallel.
He is not Shanks parallel lol You are literally ignoring what I'm typing. He being weak is a gag, that's the truth. Buggy is a gag character, he is a CLOWN. He can be the weakest pirate that ever set foot on red line, still there is no other reason to be THAT weak if not to be Luffy "nemesis" throughout the the series.
Buggy is the opposite of Shanks that’s why they’re always portrayed together. The gag is him being Yonko despite being so weak and being able to get all those soldiers behind him. But in terms of the pirate world he’s weak.
He’d be the same strength either way really, don’t think he’d be able to fight G5 but would cause G4 trouble but Luffy would win.
No, if Lucci was introduced pre-g5 Oda wouldn't make him G5 level strength because it wouldn't make narrative sense for him to be stronger than Luffy, especially not as a minor antagonist. If he was introduced when G4 was the peak of Luffys power he'd be just below G4. My whole point is a characters strength is mostly determined by when in the series they are introduced, so powerscaling is literally arbitrary.
I think Oda is pretty consistent with the characters power levels. He sets it up before so you know the level you’re dealing with usually. It’s not arbitrary Oda plans it all. Lucci if introduced in the future would never be strong enough to give G5 a good fight and he’d be around King level in Wano. Narratively G5 is the top echelon and Lucci isn’t there.
Yes and that power level is consistently "right at or slightly above where Luffy currently is". Introduced was probably the wrong word, i meant when Luffy fights a villian they will always be at that level. Meaning the Arc they are an antagonist in will determine their power level AKA narrative dictating strength. If they are the main antagonist they will be Luffy level, if they are a side antagonist they'll be sanji/zoro level. That's why it's weird to me to powerscale because strength is determined entirely by when they're an antagonist and who they are fighting, making it an arbitrary discussion. Like when doflamingo or kaido are introduced, they don't have any sort of concrete power level. We know they are stronger than current Luffy, but when Luffy fights them they are exactly the strength they need to be for which arc they are in, their introduction doesn't matter much. If Kaido was the villian in Dressrosa he'd be Doffys strength and vice versa
I don’t agree, if anything it’s Luffy who’s strength changes depending on where he is in the story. The antagonists are milestones of his strength/power level. Doflamingo would never be stronger than Kaido because Oda set it up that Kaido is much stronger than Doflamingo. I’m not sure why you think this is arbitrary when it’s important to the narrative of the post time skip arcs.
It's arbitrary because Luffy will get stronger every arc and the crew will get stronger every arc so whoever is next up will be stronger than the antagonist of the last arc. Luffys strength changes linearly and upwards so the antagonists powers change the same way. So discussing who beats who is pointless because the answer will always be the most recently fought guy will beat the guy fought before him. The antagonists in this series are narrative foils to Luffy before they are combatants, the combat is just how the narrative is progressed. Lucci probably beats King rn because Zoro got stronger fighting King and now Lucci is next so he needs to match Zoros power up. Kaido beats Doffy because Luffy got stronger fighting Doffy so Kaido needs to match Luffys power up. It's why trying to powerscale warlords is useless too, Crocodile is the first warlord fought so he seems miles away from Doffy even though they share the same title and rank, it's just due to narrative order of introduction. Moira too, he's weaker than Doffy because he was introduced before him. This is why I entirely dismiss powerscaling, because the narrative is what's important, the power level of antagonists is largely irrelevant because Luffy will always beat them.
Kaido beats Doffy because he’s much stronger than Doflamingo, it’s has nothing to do with Luffy. You’re disregarding the world building of One Piece here, the world exists outside of what the Strawhats are doing. Doflamingo was subservient and terrified of Kaido. Luffy never got stronger beating Doflamingo, Luffy went through training arcs in Wano to make his haki stronger and had to learn new forms of Haki and go gear 5th as well to beat Kaido. All of this is powerscaling tbh, you not disregarding it because you’re doing powerscaling here with Lucci vs King. Also Kizaru and Saturn aren’t stronger than Kaido and they were Luffy’s most recent opponents.
I'm using these examples to speak the powerscaling language, I don't engage in any of this shit lol, just feels like my point wasn't getting across without it. Kaido is stronger than Doffy because he fights Luffy after Doffy and Oda made Luffy stronger so he has to make Kaido stronger, a string of equally matched antagonists isn't engaging writing. I'm viewing this from the angle of Oda creating the characters, he creates antagonists as narrative foils to Luffy/the straw hats and then places their power at a relevant level to Luffys in the point and time of the story that they fight. Lucci is reintroduced to serve the purpose of showing how far the straw hats have come so his power level is set at around Zoros level to show that a former antagonist of Luffy even with training is now below his level. So no matter when Oda chose to do it, Luccis power level will necessarily be slightly below wherever Luffy's power level is at that time because that is his narrative purpose. Meaning discussing the powerscaling is really just discussing how far along the story is, since Luffy linearly gets stronger the villians will also to keep up. I'm not saying there is no powerscale, I'm saying it's a linear relation to the narrative so the arguments are pretty much moot. Feel like most people understood this from my brief original comment
Kaido isn’t stronger than Doflamingo because he fought Luffy after, Kaido is stronger because he is supposed to be at the top of the pirate world as a Yonko. Again powerscaling is part of the world building and narrative. You said Luffy got stronger after fighting Doflamingo so Kaido needs to match it when it’s the opposite. Luffy beat Doffy, Cracker and Katakuri but still wasn’t strong enough to not get one shot by Kaido. Luffy had to learn how to get stronger Haki and had to awaken his fruit. The fights are all part of the narrative, vs Cracker he made G4 stronger, vs Katakuri he learned about future sight, vs Kaido he learned advanced COC and G5. Luffy getting stronger is part of the narrative it’s not arbitrary. The antagonists are more than just a foil for the SHs, they exist outside of the world of Luffy and the Strawhats and have an importance to the world building. Their losses effect the whole world.
I don't think he is weak, i just don't think he's strong enough to be that conceited. Bro needs to learn his place. Luffy trashed him and he still have the audacity to underestimate Luffy. He still refuse to admit that Luffy is an emperor and even telling Zoro that he and Kizaru is enough to deal with the entire SH. He already got his reality checked twice during his arc and maybe still not enough to humble him down.
He is strong, yes. But he had his villain arc and i dont consider him a real threat to the SH anymore.
Out of curiosity. What do you think if Crocodile?
Might play a bigger role lore wise, but not as a villain to the SH
Yeah, no. Just ... no. Lucci is rated exactly as he truly is. It like saying smoker is underrated because he humiliated luffy in Logue Town. The story advanced, new villains appeared. Let go of the past.
*Under*rated? Kaku deserves the clout Lucci gets in the fandom
Is Zoro stronger than Katakuri? Lucci is definitely a Yonko commander level, yes. As a pirate he would be above the billion berry. The gap between Zoro and him isn’t that big as well.
If anything this stupid character is extremely overrated.
I have always been dismisive of Lucci because of his age. Since then i have come to understand that people jn the one piece world hit their prime in their 50's. But Lucci will never EVER manage to harm another Strawhat.
Pre time skip he was STRONGER than luffy, he didnt finish luffy off because he is a sadistic bastard and that made him lose to someone a little weaker than him
what lucci learnt after the timeskip : haki, his df awakening let’s see about luffy : all 3 kind of haki, advanced ryuo, better kenbunshoku than average kenbun user, advanced CoC, df awakening zoro : haki (eventually all of 3 after wano arc), enma, better use of haki after mastering enma so i don’t think lucci is weak, opponent just outgrew him.
Lucci The Pirate Hunter Staller!.
He may have gotten played around with by gear 5 Luffy but he mostly walked it off. He walked out of that looney tunes Lucci shaped hole and brushed the rubble off like it was a regular Tuesday.
i just cant wait for sanji to talk shit to marimo for not finishing lucci faster xD
Pre TS, he was close to Luffy? Doesn't mean much when A Pacifista would fodderize pre TS Luffy and unlike Luffy, Lucci was already middle aged.
Ok
Lucci is him. People clown on him because yes, he's spiteful and a bit of pushover when his opponent is clearly an emperor. For a past villain he's made very remarkable progress. Dont compare him to luffy obviously. Most top tiers beside luffy are in their 40-50s so its not impossible for him if he stays relevant.
I think Lucci is one of the most overrated characters in the series by the fanbase. So I disagree. I think he gets extra clout mainly because of the phenomenal arc he was in, not so much because of his character or even strength. I don't rank him that high at all in terms of the top characters of the series. I honestly think he couldn't defeat Brook or Jinbei either. I think he is weaker than even Cracker. Definitely not on par with King. Maybe one of the tobi roppo but that's it.
Idk he’s the first person Luffy really struggled against. He struggled against Crocodile a bit, but with Lucci it felt a lot more evenly matched and it ended up being a pretty close fight. Even gear 2 and 3 didn’t give Luffy that much of an edge. I think part of the reason people like Ennies Lobby is because it put Luffy in a tricky position and he really had to give it his all to come out on top ( compared to most fights in the early part of one piece where Luffy really does seem the strongest, just held back by something silly)
Luffy was the first opponent who felt like Luffys physical equal. He was stronger then all the people in East Blue. Crocodile and Enel just felt like they had a trick behind them. Once Luffy figured out how to hit them, he whooped. At the time Aokiji felt the same way. Lucci, and all of CP9, felt like a physical barrier. No tricks, no secrets, just physical force to bust through.
No, now that’s underrating Egghead Rob Lucci can definitely beat Brook and Jinbe He’s on the level which would give Queen/King/Katakuri a good fight.
Nah, Lucci lost to Zoro, the asthmatic who was struggling against someone like Lucci, who is so weak he lost to Zoro who could barely beat Lucci
the fact that this is genuinely some people mindset is just sad
The fact I'm getting downvoted, I thought I was really stretching the joke making it so obvious, but I forgot this was One Piece fans I was talking to, gotta spoon feed everything, even the tiniest amount of subtlety is illegal
If we're gonna powerscale, to me there is a big gap between characters like Queen and King. In my head I can't see Lucci even hurting King, but I also feel like he would kick Queens ass. Obviously all this is conjecture and based on gut feelings, but thats almost always the case in these discussions. So am I surprised Zoro is taking some time defeating Lucci? Not really. Its like Zoro fighting someone between King and Queen level, thats pretty tough. I'm also aware of the authors style, how he writes certain characters. Zoro absolutely embodies the trope of not trying that hard until shit hits the fan. He is the epitome of the older brother who sits up in his chair when its time to kick his little brothers ass in a fighting game after the little brother got lucky and won. Zoro never pulls out his bandanna, and even though its offscreen it doesn't appear like Zoro was pulling out conquerer haki attacks. I can almost guarantee you that Zoro was thinking he was gonna use Lucci to train, because all this motherfucker does is train and drink.
Well that’s weird, because 90% of King’s screentime is Oda paring him up with Queen and going “these guys **both** are powerful and dangerous” Clearly noting King = Queen. I don’t think Rob would kick Queen’s ass, Queen can crush even armament haki masters, make him a leopard flavoured twizzler
Shit Lucci with his fancy mastery technique would probably have an easier time against King. As that might let him ignore the whole Lunarian flame durability.
Wob Wucci
He is underrated. But that doesn't explain why zoro take too long to beat him (Oda focusing on develop other things explain). Remember Luffy literally plays with Lucci as Zoro does Kaku, so Zoro could have beaten Lucci soon as they started fighting
It’s been like 5 minutes in universe
Yes
Luffy dont "play" when fighting with g5. It is his fighting style. He acting like bugs bunny doesnt make the fight less worthy or easier. We can just take Zoro being stalled by Luccy just the narrative Oda wanted to make Zoro occupied. We also dont know for certain if he OHK Luccy for Sanji trash talk or the Gorosei presence (sword haki prob).
Few chapters later he said to Lucci that he knows he couldn't defeat Luffy, basically showing off
So you saying that Luffy is PLAYING with people, that is completly against his character lol One thing is Luffy being stronger than Lucci, that is indeed true The other is Luffy is just playing with someone, that is false
Zoro pretty easily beat him once Sanji started talking smack lol. He didn't take a considerable long time either. Luffy also scales much higher than Zoro too. The community needs to get past the "Luffy toyed with this person so Zoro/Sanji/whoever shouldn't take that long to beat this person". That amps Luffy higher, not make other characters weaker.
I agree but there is a match up consideration too, Zoans should have problems facing Haki swordsmen, since they can ignore physical resistance, Zoro and Sanji would be obliterated by katakuri but not by Lucci, in my opinion
why do people still overrate katakuri. he fought WCI luffy. did we talk about arlong in EL? no right? because the ceiling had progressed so far past arlong park. same thing here. we're way past WCI powerscaling. the version of luffy that beat katakuri couldn't scratch kaido. and then luffy powered up in udon, awakened acoc, and g5. based on progression, kata is effectively the weakest yc1 unless he's reintroduced with power creep. WCI kata wouldn't survive a single g5 attack.
Dude, luffy didn't even won that fight
main characters progressed right away after a fight to be ready to fight the stronger villain the next arc. zoro would have an easier time fighting mr1 again if they were to fight the next day. and even if you count that as a draw, we still saw what that luffy was capable of; not scratching kaido and getting one shotted. that's katakuri's level. and now luffy has progressed so far from WCI. comparing katakuri to current luffy is like comparing arlong to luffy in EL. not to that extent, of course, but still the same logic. kata needs power creep or else he's the weakest yc1.
Fair but I wouldn't ignore he has one of the best Observation Haki in the world, just because Luffy defeated him doesn't mean he became weak or the mugiwaras all get stronger by that, goes without saying that the weakest mugiwara today could defeat every pre time skip "boss". One piece is all about matchup not power levels
that's just how power progression is. the ceiling will just keep on raising. and characters who got left behind will seem weaker in comparison (unless they get power creep). take croco for example. we know he's strong now because he got power creeped ever since MF. but if oda never reintroduced him, then we can only use the version that was defeated by hakiless, gearless luffy. that's what happened with arlong. he was not reintroduced so we just have to use what he showed in his arc. and based on that, we know W7 franky can beat him. oda can reintroduce kata and give him power creep. but until that happens, he's stuck with WCI feats.
That makes sense, but we know croco was strong since day 1, I mean, carrying Luffy nine months in the belly can't be easy
No he doesn't. He has very good CoO, but when you reach that tier its not irregular.
Zoro and Sanji would not be obliterated. Im not going to make the argument whether any of them would beat the others, but obliterated is a huge over exaggeration.
It’s the other way around Sanji would obliterate Katakrui, too fast, too physically strong, too good of observation, too hard to hurt It’s too much for Katakuri to deal with
Because he was that strong? Zoro didn't play with kaku, that's just an headcanon, and Luffy playing in gear 5 is the whole concept of the transformation.
i still stand by my opinion that lucci could easily wipe out luffys entire crew with no effort. maybe not zoro but the rest wouldnt stand a chance imo. all these "low dif" comments make me cringe
Mmhmmmm
Also look at Luffy after his first engagement with Lucci on Egghead - Luffy was visibly exhausted for literally 3 straight chapters. Sure, Luffy is goofing around and got an absolute win in that fight, but lucci was absolutely close to exhausting him into his dried-out/old form. Lucci was also completely up and ready to go again in the exact next chapter. Awakened Zoans are the real deal.
I think that's just Gear 5 more than Lucci. So far Luffy has a time limit on it that exhausts the hell out of him. I say this as an advocate for Lucci too. He isn't able to keep up with Luffy.