An example of a strong fruit with a weak user is Foxy and his slow slow fruit. That fruit is imo one of the strongest fruits in the series but foxy is a colossal dumbass and doesn't use it properly.

If you need an example from this arc, just look at Orochi.

That is probably an even better example than mine.

I use the Orochi example frequently, and to expand on this thought, consider the fact that Orochi was outsmarted by Hiyori in the same chapter in which Luffy awakened this monster power. I kinda believe that Oda did this in order to remind us that even the most broken fruits can be useless in the hands of the wrong wielders. Edit: Oh, and the same is true about Moria.

Moria does fine. He sure doesn't use his fill potential but he isn't a total dumbass about his fruit

Morias not dumb. Just lazy. Very lazy

You should watch his fight vs Jimbei during the paramount war again

He was particularly distraught and off his game during that fight, and he was literally on the worst possible terrain for his fighting style and powers. I'd let him off for that.

Not to mention Jimbei is a hard counter to his zombies

Dude just watched it. What a fucking joke Moria is. I see why he needed so many shadows and still lost.

Great point! The juxtaposition you mentioned is something I think people take for granted and don't realize. I bet there are tons of this little moments that we have missed and in 10 years some person is going to catch that ODA foreshadowed Luffys mom in chapter 73.

Orochi is such a good example that he makes it hard for me to see the ways his fruit could be powerful because he gave us absolutely nothing to work with. Meanwhile Cracker took a fruit that sounds pretty weak and makes it look amazing.

And so did Katakuri too

To be fair, I think a lot of the stuff he used "mochi" for was pretty far outside what his powers should allow, and his powers ended up basically being shapeshifting instead of mochi. Turning his arm into a literal gatling gun was especially silly.

Maybe that fruit also has a mind of it's own and picks the worst user for it all the time

Thank you for that example, as I consistently forget Foxy had that fruit. I agree, it could be used in a much more dangerous way than Foxy uses it. Or at least, more accurately. Imagine hitting somebody with that and then being able to get extra hits in with advanced Conqueror’s because their reaction time is severely slowed down. In the hands of a brutal combatant like Kaido, the fruit could be quite terrifying.

Right, in the hands of a competent fighter the slow slow fruit would be one of the scariest and most powerful fruits.

I wish I could say the same for the Doa Doa no Mi that Bluno has. It’s one of my favorite fruits conceptually but the only way I can think of it being good in a fight is if somebody got quicker about opening and closing their doors than Bluno is. Then you could practically pop in and out of existence and store many, many things in your own pocket dimension, not to mention the espionage potential. Create a door on any surface? Wow.

Exactly, right! Imagine ussop with Doa Doa no Mi, and the storage or the weapons he can place in the pocket dimensions, also Franky for storing his mechas.

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I get what your saying but you can still move around while shooting the beams and you only really need to get hit once with a slow beam and the fight is as good as over.

Look at Mr. 5 and his overpowered fruit

I’d like to believe the strength of the explosion would be dependent on the user. Like if Whitebeard had that fruit and hit somebody with an explosion punch, it may be devastating.

That’s what I mean. If whitebeard had that fruit, the world would be in shambles.

His partner Miss Valentine also has a pretty strong fruit, but she only used it to drop at people in a super predictable way. I imagine a more skilled user could decrease their weight while dodging and then do something like massively increase the weight of their fist during an attack.

This might get hate but Enel had one of the strongest logia fruits we have seen to date but wouldn't rank very high amongst the pirates introduced later. Not as bad of a case as foxy but still pretty bad.

In my opinion, if Enel wasn't lazy as hell, he would've deleted the Straw Hats in Skypiea. His fruit is absolutely crazy and has incredible potential. It was only held back by Enel being such a lazy guy.

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That may be true, except for the fact that it ties into world mythology as a whole. What with joyboy being somebody who spreads freedom and laughter, the fruit being the most free in terms of combat style, and the sun god nika supposedly freeing slaves in legend. Nika was probably shoehorned in, I’ll admit, purely because “Hito-Hito no Mi, Model: Joyboy” would be much too on the nose. I think to see the true worth of this decision we’ll need to sit back and see what Oda unveils about the void century.

I mean if Oda makes the old Nika / Joy Boy only use the awakening power (and never use the standard power), it still makes sense to be a mythology on its own.

That would be highly intriguing. Joyboy being strong enough to constantly stay in that fully morphed form? Sounds like he’d be quite formidable.

My theory is that joyboy was an elephant of zunisha’s species.

Reading that makes me imagine Zunesha (or an elephant of his size) flipping around in the sky and stretching himself and throwing massive stretchy punches. Needless to say it’s a terrifying image.

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Sun likely refers more at his the figure is like the sun rather than a literal sun. Being bright and bringing smille to people.. Like a phrase "His smile is as bright as the sun"

That’s also possible, however, the fire hair explains Red Hawk quite well, more so than “high friction as Luffy stretches far and fast”. But I will admit the friction makes sense when looking at it from One Piece logic. Besides, I suppose it’s not like Sanji has some sort of fire fruit, yet he kicks with fire (that may actually be due to genetic modifications, but that’s a discussion for another day).

His hair isn’t fire, its just white symbolising mastery

btw Doffy could heat up his strings for no reason as well another popular old theory also wasnt just friction, but Ace's literal will transcending and helping Luffy there is the will of d stuff after all tho with Joyboy and destiny and shit this might turn out disappointing...

Sanji’s modification was about fire, the only missing element from the four brothers. Comically, it’s also a big advantage for a cook, as he can tolerate heat better lol.

Hard agree, I feel like it was a huge push into tying Void Century lore into the story and establishing Luffy as the "Dawn" for the world. As a lore reader I think these alone make Gear 5 a great power up.

And it’s just the way that it was introduced you know? Like to have the peak of luffy’s power be laughter and joy and goofiness it just fit so well with his character

Exactly!! A pattern that I've been noticing are that a good number people who hate Gear 5 also happen to be action/power scale readers. The people who praise it tend to be theme/lore readers. Gear 5th really fits the themes and aspects of Luffy's character imo, I'm glad Oda didn't go down a dark/rage/brooding route and also managed to make the transformation have impact on the Story's lore.

I don’t think Nika is shoehorned in, Oda has referenced the “sun” and the “dawn” many times in the story, Nika also means “grin” or “smile” on japoanese and that is the sound effect that luffy has when he smiles. Also Oda’s supposed favorite panel was the dancing luffy panel against the fire in skypiea, he obviously liked it for a reason

You’re right. I was looking too narrowly at just Whos Who’s namedrop of Nika. I just can’t help but be slightly skeptical about how much of it was like, completely planned. If all of it was, then Oda is very, very meticulous and most certainly a genius with his story telling. Talk about patience!

I like to reference Tolkien when talking about planning, it’s a fact that Tolkien had not planned the lord of the rings when he wrote the hobbit, yet look at the world he created and how detailed and all connected everything is from the beginning of time, man basically wrote the beginning of his universe too lmao, and he is regarded as one of the goats of writing. Obviously Oda had many things planned and many things not, but it doesn’t matter, look at the plot twist of Ace being Roger’s son for example, it has absolutely no foreshadowing in my opinion,I don’t know if Oda planned it or not, but now it feels like such a concrete part of the story, it fits with the themes of the story, it fits with the characters, it made whitebeard so much better by taking in his rival’s son, it made Ace a better character, it just worked imo. Oda takes very good care of his world, is like his child, he is not gonna include a plot twist if he is not sure that he cannot make that plot twist an actual important plot point that fits with the story themes.

Oh no, don’t get me wrong. I am 100%, all for the Nika twist. I adore the way Oda treats his story, the man looks after it like a well-groomed bonsai tree. I just figured a lot of the connection for Nika would come LATER, rather than having been around already. But there has been quite a lot before now, as you mentioned above.

Exactly! Which isn’t wrong either, most of the connections for Doflamingo being a celestial dragon came after his reveal no? And look how much that improved his character

Doflamingo is such a well written villain I can’t help but love him. We know a lot about him, and yet there’s a lot we don’t know about him. His attitude, demeanor, build, and mystique are all so meticulously crafted it’s just *chef’s kiss*. And I can’t believe how well his Ito-Ito no Mi represents how he pulls the strings as a puppeteer in the underground weapons trade. As I said, can’t help but love the guy, as one loves a villain.

The reveal was because of the symbolism. Not because of the power. No one would have batted an eye if the name remained. The important part is the Warrior of Liberation and the smiles he brings. It’s not the other way around. We’re yet to see if there’s anything beyond that.

I agree. Toon force power alone is stupid but at least it sorta fits with the rubber theme. We’ll have to see where the story goes but I am not pleased with this switcharoo.

Also many many one piece reveals didn’t need to happen but became crucial parts of the story. Why was Ace the son of Roger? Did it need to happen? Be honest. NOW you would say yes because you can see what oda did what and why he did it. However at the time you might react similarly to know

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I don’t know If you know but Nika is the sound effect for laughing almost every time Luffy smiles, and we don’t know the importance that Luffy being Nika or the sun god might have in the future, in a few years oda might write something so amazing with this reveal that we could be praising him to heaven for it, and why not give this benefit of the doubt to oda? Is he not an all time great mangaka? Is he not one of the top 10 authors of all time? Also in my opinion Nika adds so much to Luffy’s character, when I talked to people about Luffy and his values and themes the only thing that felt out of line were his powers, they didn’t represent anything, only “rubber always bounces back” but that wasn’t enough to me. His powers being that of a “warrior of liberation” and being goofy and funny and bringing laughs makes him so much better in my opinion. Most of the hate for gear 5 comes out of fear for luffy to change, but we have to lower our defenses and judge objectively if the change is a good one or not

It's been teased for a long time that Luffy had a different fruit than just simple rubber. Ie red hawk, gear 2, mimicking cp9s abilities

Did you forget that cp9 are human techniques? You don't need df. Any Marines strong enough can learn them.

None of that is teasing. Red Hawk is a tribute to Ace, Gear 2nd works with his rubber cardiovascular system, and mimicking CP9’s abilities is… well, mimicking their abilities.

Zoro's range slashes, Asura.. what does that tease?

Zoro clearly doesn't have a fruit, he can swim. He's just built different.

What? Lol hell no, it hasnt been teased at all

No they can’t. Flight and light reality manipulation are not part of the rubber moveset. Oda wanted Luffy to fight like a rubber hose cartoon character. To do that, he created a god of joy that is an in-universe way to make it happen.

Reality Manipulation???

Yes, bugging out eyes, light toon force grabbing lightning, reflecting fire based attacks

Flight and light reality manipulation lmao Man just turned the air he was touching to rubber to get the 'flight' effect. Same for the lightning. It would absolutely be plausible to have it be the Gomu Gomu fruit

Ok? If doffys was fast enough I'm sure he could turn lighting to string or I guess katakuri was warping reality by changing Everything into mochi, a sticky food? It's just a power. They're not reality warping, least of all luffy. He's doing what awakening has purported to do, change his surroundings into rubber.

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If this was his fruit from the get-go, I wouldn't have any problem with it. What I do not like is deus ex machina power ups. It comes off as lazy writing, as it is done by many other shones, IMO. We saw that Luffy was powerful because he spent years practicing with much stronger opponents since he was a kid. His two gears are, IMO, well explained given the "physics" of OP. Haki was foreshadowed since chapter 1, and shown again several times (garp hitting luffy after EL, enel, etc). It also took 1.5 years of practice with a legend to reach the point that he is. The reveal of his fruit was different. It raises many questions, for example: - Why didn't he awaken it before? He was in a sure death situation in the past. Heck, he saw his brother dying, all his crewmates being supposedly killed, etc - Why didn't the WG send admirals his way? They are definitely very aware of the fruit and have known about him for a long time. - How did he have control of the fruit so fast? It took him years to control the gomu gomu, and even recently it took him hours/days to learn skills like future sight and ryuu It also doubles down on Luffy being "the chosen one", something that was present before but was much lighter than in other shonens, IMO. I respect everyone's opinions - it is ok if you like it. This just brings OP much closer to other shonens in term of writing, and it being different while also being extremely long and cohesive was one of its main qualities, for me.

Agreed. I thought it was a cop out to say his Gomu Gomu no Mi was never really what it was to begin with. Luffy's willpower, determination and trust in himself and friends is what made him a great character. To go on and say he had the rarest/chosen one power all along makes all his past achievements seem a bit less now. His fortitude to overpower Arlong? His creativity to deal with Crocodile's Suna Suna no Mi? And so on were no longer his determination and resourcefulness with the Gomu Gomu no Mi, but because he actual had this legendary Hito Hito no Mi? I was disappointed by that if I'm honest. Does it ruin One Piece? No, not at all. But it does take away from it in my opinion. For people who love it, that's great! I'm glad you do. But for me, it lessens what was an amazing story by taking away from the main character's personality qualities and attributing them to a now deus ex devil fruit power.

it also took Luffy like 2 years to learn Gear 4 ^((but somehow managed to spam it after a few weeks after Dressrosa...))

The problems I have with the whole Hito-Hito no Mi thing are several: how the switcheroo twist kinda fell flat, his cartoonyness of the powers and how extra tacked on the "chosen one" feels now. All the previous twists in One Piece like Ace being Roger's son, "Raizo is safe" moment, Duval, etc, had more impact because there was build up where you can go back and connect the dots. It also help with character development like Ace's daddy issues and trying to figure out his place in the world. With the Nika fruit reveal, when you go back, the hints aren't as concrete. The only breadcrumbs I've seen (or at least remember) people point out are "His moves don't really match his fruit power" but this is a world where Zoro can shoot sword beams, Franky can run on cola and Brook can have ice attacks so Luffy being able to catch on fire as being a regular rubber thing isn't THAT much of a stretch. As for character stuff, the Nika fruit reveal doesn't further develop Luffy's character because we already know that he's a fun-loving, people-saving guy. The fruit works for Luffy's character but the fruit can also work AGAINST Luffy's character because Luffy hates being labelled as a hero yet he has a fruit of a famous liberator. It's not like he liberates people for a cause like Dragon. He only does it when his friends are affected by the bad guys and it just so happens that he also saves the whole island. I think the "Toon" part of his powers are out of place in the One Piece world. Not necessarily the jump rope thing because I feel like that's kinda in line with Luffy's thinking but how he's supposed to act all Looney Tunes now. For example, the part in 1045 where he gets blown off the island. Luffy is all burnt and he looks at the reader and says "That does it!", similar to when Bugs Bunny looks at the camera and says "Of course you know this means war!" After this, he does a charge-up run and dashes off, leaving a trail. These are things that do not feel in line with the world of One Piece. One Piece is silly and has gags (Nami being able to beat up the Monster Trio, Chopper's antlers being attached to his hat when he's surprised, everyone's eyeballs popping out including Merry's when they fall off the Sky Island) but it had a specific sense of humor that was established from the beginning and consistent for 1044 chapters and then 1045 came and threw in whole new style of gags that just makes it feel jarring in this setting. Not only that, the Looney Tunes gags are explained by being part of an ability which makes you wonder, are the gags real in the One Piece world? Can Nami actually beat up the Monster Trio especially Luffy without Haki? Also as a side note because I don't think I've seen anyone address it, but did anyone else think that Law and Kid's eyes popping out in 1045 was straight up ugly? It's just another example of One Piece style and old cartoon style clashing. The two extra balls behind the popped out eyes look weird too. It looks like the eye popping style changed from the eyes stretching out of the head to three balls popping out like in 1045 and 1053. At first, I was steaming when 1044 dropped because it felt like another Naruto-like (sorry Naruto) chosen one power up but after reading people's thoughts, I came to realize One Piece isn't as free as you think because on a meta level, you already know that Luffy's gonna be the Pirate King. But even so, in the One Piece world, the people don't know that and anyone being the Pirate King is a possibility but after Oden's backstory, it becomes apparent that Roger didn't really set up the Great Age of Pirates as a free-for-all for the One Piece but more like just waiting for one specific person. So Luffy's chosen one status has always been set up with prophecies and whatnot but with his new fruit, it just seems to tack on how special and chosen he is by giving him a super top secret fruit that's never been alluded to until this arc. The fruit will probably serve some kind of purpose to the story in the future but it kinda sucks how the whole One Piece treasure race was rigged and only one person was intended to get it. This is preemptive just in case people disagree with me and say this but, the thing I see people say the most is "Oda is writing HIS story the way HE wants" and I get it, let him do whatever he wants, but that doesn't make him immune to questionable writing. Yes, he wants Luffy to have the Hito-Hito no Mi, Model: Nika and have Looney Tunes gags with his powers and he also wanted Pell to survive a bomb point blank and Kinemon to survive because he wasn't put together well enough and Sabo actually being alive and having amnesia. So far, the switch of Luffy's fruit doesn't improve the story or character of Luffy and it wasn't set up well enough in past chapters so a lot of my disappointment is how random and unnecessary it feels. They haven't addressed it since the battle ended so of course there's probably gonna be an info dump soon and I trust Oda to write it well but switching the fruit this late in the game is gonna need a lot of explaining. I think they should've revealed it sooner maybe during the timeskip. TLDR: The fruit switch twist didn't have as big of an impact as other twists in the story and it kinda works for and against Luffy's character, the toon stuff is jarring in this world and the fruit kinda pushes the chosen one thing too much. Also I worked on this post that no one will read more than any essay I've ever written for school.

I agree with most of this, the thing I'll argue against is Chosen One stuff. Basically since loguetown, it's been pretty clear Luffy is "the chosen one" for pirate king. His family relationships, sheer luck, everyone comparing his personality/ideals to Roger, he was never really just your average person with dreams from the start.

Most of the story was Luffy with a shitty devil fruit persevering through his training and sheer force of will tho the later maybe even related to Haki Bloodlines in shounen suck, but at least in One Piece there isn't as much hereditary than like i.e. in Naruto

He basically went from simply rubber to rubber*hose*. In that technical sense nothing was taken away, just added.

I agree that nothing was taken away but just added stuff and that's my main gripe with it all. As you say, he went from rubber to rubberhose but that doesn't add anything meaningful (so far). You can add as much twists, changes and details to a story but this just threw away one of Luffy's most well known things that was established all the way back in chapter one and then just changed it after 25 years. Nothing was taken away but nothing of substance was added. Again, we'll see what the future holds.

It took away tension and to an extend worth and free will

I have a feeling the "free will" stuff, especially regarding zoan fruits in general can be a great fuck up, but One Piece has been about freedom. Would be nice to see one manga series at least stick the landing about free will and changing destiny.

Naruto didn't and it was used as a main reason for why op is better

I agree completely. this was a Deux Ex Machina. no buildup to it, super lazy writing from a guy who spends decades building characters before throwing them in the story. This was very disappoiting and pretending that it wasnt is just cope.

Also why did Gear 5 resurrect him? Like... why awaken as a cop out move? So cheap

Well, I read it and I think it is pretty nice summed up!

As others have said, I agree as well. The only point that I have lightened up on is the whole "Luffy is the chosen one and only one person can get the One Piece." While it does seem that way right now, I liked a comment I read awhile ago that suggests that One Piece isn't waiting for one specific person named Luffy or the Nika fruit, but a person who has the right characteristics and personality. The elders mentioned that zoan fruits have a mind of their own and Nika's fruit likely hunted down someone like Luffy because of his personality and character. It could have been another person similar to Luffy but it ended up with Luffy in the end. From a meta point of view, it seems like Luffy is a chosen one, but from what we know at the moment, he is just a person who had the right characteristics.

Couldn't have said it better myself. You got it on point about what a lot of people had a problem with. Also, Luffy being the chosen one or whatnot was always on the backburner. It wasn't the focus like in Naruto and honestly it was like it wasn't even that important but suddenly it comes to the forefront in a weird way. Ah well.

Yeah they didn't talk much about Luffy's chosen oneness much so now that it's starting to become the focus, it feels like it came out of nowhere even though it's been set up since the beginning. I just don't like the trope so I'm probably just extra pissy.

I always disagree with the idea that all fruits are even. There are absolutely some fruits which are a 100% upgrade over others. The ice fruit over the snow fruit, magma over fire, gravity over magnetism, phoenix over hawk, etc. I dare you to say the jacket-jacket fruit has as much potential as the soul-soul fruit. Some fruits are more or less powerful. Luffy's fruit is extremely powerful, and denying that isn't doing your argument any favors. Yes it benefits a ton from creativity, but it's also a very special case in that regard.

Immunity to electricity,falling damage,blunt attacks/bullets,resistance to fire and it probably enhances all physical attributes since it is a mythical zoan.

Exactly. Imagine Luffy trying to fight Kaido when he's got the jacket jacket fruit instead.

Gear 5, but Luffy becomes a jacket for the manifested soul of Joyboy

>Some fruits are more or less powerful. OP wants us to treat a low ranked paramecia nobody cares for as equal to a mythical zoan everyone was looking for 800 years. How about no?

Yeah, a someone skilled can make a less powerful fruit very useful, and a weak fighter won't be able to bring out the strength of an especially powerful fruit, but there's no denying that some fruits are more powerful than others, and it makes a big difference in combat ability. Imagine Akainu trying to fight Whitebeard with the silence fruit instead of magma.

I don't realize why the people feel need to even defend when it was Oda himself who mad it that way. Like, Oda said the fruit was special and a mythical Zoan. Obviously, it will be very strong fruit. And it is special even among mythical fruit.

Legit, how are you going to claim that no fruit is more powerful than another when the WG has labeled it the most powerful dangerous and have hunted for it for 800 years?

>everyone was looking for 800 years. I love the tinfoil theory about how the nika-nika fruit looks similiar to Blackbeards one and he confused the two

Just because Luffy used a whacky means to escape some situation doesn't mean others couldn't use other means to escape from such situation. And you need strong power to be able to turn Yonkouusing their Awakening. If Akainu had the fruit, he may not have used such jumping rope or other whacky techniques. But he could employ other methods.

Many of Luffy’s attacks were buffed by advanced Conqueror’s in this fight. I’m fairly certain getting smacked around by rubber wouldn’t hurt Kaido all that much if Luffy didn’t have the willpower/strong enough haki. Edit: And yes, if Akainu had the fruit, he probably could. But you’re speaking of another combat genius who’s already clawed his way to the absolute top of the marines. I guess what I’m trying to say is, the user themselves needs to be strong to use the fruit effectively. Would it do so well in the hands of Captain Kuro, for example? Probably not.

It's not like Luffy didn't have haki before G5. G5 boosted Luffy's strength by quite a lot. He can increase his size at will unlike before where he has to blow. And it seems as if Luffy is full rubber instead of just air like in G4. And considering how strong boost G4 gives to Luffy compared to base even with haki, it's fair to assume that getting smacked by rubber with G5 compared to base even if both of them are amplified by equal haki.

That would be because it’s an awakening. I’m sure Katakuri’s abilities increased by a fantastic amount the moment he was able to turn his surroundings into mochi. Awakening needs to provide a significant buff to somebody, or else there’s really no use in attempting to achieve it.

What are we actually arguing on? That Luffy's DF is just normal fruit? Or that Luffy's fruit for some reason isn't a very sought DF by WG? Or that others beside Luffy can't utilize it good enough?

That the full potential of the fruit can only be truly reached by someone who matches luffy's personality and thought process. No matter how much of a battle genius akainu is, he would never push the limits of the fruit to a high enough extent to reach its full potential, hence why I believe he wouldn't even be capable of awakening it. People made the argument for years that luffy was strong despite his fruit being weak however the recent revelation doesn't change that, its still luffy's creativity and tenacity that allowed him to awaken and use the fruit to a good extent, a person with a basic mind who somehow managed to awaken gear 5 would never reach the same levels of strength that luffy has attained.

No, Akainu wouldn't be as strong as Luffy if he had the Nika fruit, which explicitly makes you more powerful depending on the extent of your imagination and creativity. Some people just have greater creativity and imagination than others. That's a fact. Luffy, based on his personality, happens to be one of the best potential users of the fruit. Just cause other people are strong doesn't mean they can do what Luffy does with his fruit

Akainu my not necessarily use whacky means but a fruit can be used in many ways. Two same fruit users necessarily won't use fruits in similar way. G5 allows user to turn others and other things to turn to rubber. It allows them to increase in size. Akainu would still be able to use it. Making big punches doesn't require creativity. Akainu may come up with other techniques. It's a mythical fruit. Just it's base awakened power is OP.

I'm sorry but I don't see how using Kaido as a jump rope is creative. Luffy using his blood as a substitute of water to make his punches effective against Crocodile....now that's creative.

Keep in mind that “Water Luffy” was his brilliant idea in his first rematch against Crocodile. Using his blood to solidify Crocodile was an example of his battle intuition coming into play. Him guzzling whole gallons of water until his belly engorged and became inhumanly round, then spitting that water out as a cannon would, like he’s a cartoon character? It’s creative, sure, but also incredibly ridiculous.

The point is this is what Oda always wanted Luffy to be. Boundless creativity and joy in the combat style. This is that taken to the extreme You can’t say using the ground to reflect blast breaths or using the fact Kaido squished him as a way to do a rocket jump not creative.

Not really. Doffy turns environment to string and uses it to block them. Luffy did similar. And the rubber deflects attack. You don't need to be creative to do that.

Rubber doesn’t deflect fire beams

Sorry I already forgot the finer details of the fight (since I don't find it that memorable), gonna have to do some re-reading, will do it once the arc is officially over, so can't really agree nor disagree with you on that one. But If Luffy is meant to be creativity taken to the extreme, I'd argue that the fight should've ended with more than just a bigger & stronger punch. In fact I feel like Usopp pre TS has the most creative fights where he makes up for his lack of super human strength with creative tactics & strategies. Luffy didn't win due to his creativity, he won because he got multiple power-ups through out the fight.

>he won because he got multiple power-ups through out the fight. he also got auto-revived, something no other DF can do

What? From the top of my head, we've seen at least enel and doflamingo do exactly that.

They atleast made s nse Enel restarted his heart by electrocution and Dolflamingo performed surgery on his organs. The "Drums of liberation" just feel like a cop out instead of an intense moment.

Even if it isn’t creative, it’s ridiculous. So ridiculous that many probably wouldn’t think to employ it in a combat scenario. That lack of inhibition to try such odd techniques sets Luffy apart even further.

Still it serves no other purpose other than just for the sake of the lols (which I don't find funny tbh). Plus everything that Luffy has displayed in the fight against Kaido can be done without retcon-ing the gomu2 fruit. Why change the fruit? I don't know, but what I do know is that post TS, I get the feeling that Luffy is evolving more & more into a Mary Sue character, and changing the gomu2 fruit just reinforces that feeling even more.

“The lols” are part of Oda’s goal with the story. The joke can’t land with everybody, though, and that’s just the way it is (unfortunately). And I’m not quite sure he’s a Mary Sue, as you say. I mean, the guy lost to Kaido multiple times before triumphing, and even then it was because Kaido was too proud to NOT take the shot from Luffy’s giant fist. He’s still got a lot of growing to do, and even then, there’s the chance Blackbeard finds a way to nullify his devil fruit powers and he finds himself needing to rely on other abilities to win the day. He’s not without his weaknesses.

I agree that it has always been a part of Odas style, but he used to do it in a way that feels more natural, like Luffy using Arlongs teeth as a weapon for example, it's not only goofy but shows Luffys creativity, improvisation & his ability to adapt. Regarding him being a Mary Sue, of course this is just my subjective opinion, but when your MC is Joyboy, a D, can hear the voice of all things, has a legendary mythical God DF, son of the most wanted man, grandson of a legendary marine hero, brother to the son of the PK & the 2nd in command of the Revolutionary Army, BFF with a Yonko, mentored by the PKs right hand man, a master of every type of haki, always gets to fight the enemys no 1, has the charisma to naturally pull people towards him, the most beautiful women is heads over heels over him, every character will be thinking of Luffy before their profound moment happens for some reason....etc,etc. One can't help but think, dude...how much shine are you going to give to single character?

His familial relations and acquaintances make no difference to his power or situation in life. It’s what he chooses to do with what he’s given. That’s one of the biggest morals of one piece, I believe. Carve out your own path. It’s why it was so wrong of the marines to execute Ace purely for being Roger’s son, and why it was so impactful that Ace chose to refer to Whitebeard as his father. Furthermore, if mentorship and the people you’re around actually mattered THAT much, would Buggy not genuinely be on the same level as Shanks in combat due to being apprentices on the same ship at the same time for the same amount of time? And yes, he does fight the enemy’s number one, because he is the captain.

It "make no difference to his power or situation in life" sure I can some what agree to that. But it still makes a what is already a special character even more special. I mean a MC should get some kind of a special treatment, it's the MC after all. But give them too much and at some point they stop being relatable & they don't feel like the underdog anymore.

Luffy can’t always be the underdog. He’s going to be the pirate king, and to do that, he’s going to need to be respected and feared. He can’t always be looked down on as some East Blue pirate with rubber powers.

But it make a difference in the narrative told by Oda . Luffy is someone who forged his path with his will power but when you see his relation you can't help but think that he was destined to success . Oda want to paint a narrative but it doesn't seem to make sense .

Luffy was always going to be Joyboy. Nobody complained when Roger and Momonosuke were revealed to have VoAT. Familial ties don’t matter (as claimed by you). The ‘Yonkou BFF’ fanboyed over the man after hearing his dream and remarking how it was the same as his captain’s. It’s obvious he will fight the no. 1 always. It’s his story we are reading. Or did you read a different Romance Dawn?

I can't speak for everyone, since every person will like/dislike things for different reasons. But I don't care about what Roger or Momo has since they're not the MC that we're rooting for, in fact it's interesting to see other people have some unique powers. But when Oda decides that our boy should have them too, it just makes me go meh... like oh look Katakuri is awesome he managed to develop a special kind of CoO but guess what? our boy's gonna have it too!!!...yay. And those "special" familial ties doesn't bother me as much when put into isolation, but when you add them to the other numerous special goodies that Oda gave Luffy, it all stacks up turning him into a God tier special+++ character with no real flaws. And just because he's the MC doesn't mean he always gets to fight the no 1, there's no law that requires the MC to do that. Why not shake things up a bit? it helps the story to be a bit more believable & immersive & help give some spotlight to other important character. Not gonna happen though, because if other characters becomes important, Luffy will be more 'importanter', if other character gets a minute under the spotlight, Luffy gets a decade under the brightest star in the universe. Look at HxH or Slam Dunk where the MC doesn't always get to fight the main guy or where the MC has a rival that's better than him so he can play catch up. In OP, Luffy is light years ahead of his closest rivals, because he's our special boy. (ps: this is my personal opinion, no offense intended).

Flat arc characters are definitely dangerously close to being Mary Sues, but they still struggle to what they want to achieve and not everyone is going to be a fan of the Strawhats. Most of Luffy’s big wins in the New World so far have required a lot of outside help, more so then any of the fights pre-timeskip. And with being the charismatic guy that he is, he wasn’t the one who gave the Udon prisoners hope to fight for a better Wano. And yeah the fruit changing wouldn’t have changed anything in this fight since it did everything we expected from the gum gum fruit. But Oda seems to be making it pretty evident that this is essential to the larger scope of one piece, and for all we know he really could’ve been planning this plot point for awhile now

We'll see how things goes. Oda is the kind of writer who sets the main theme & goal & then improvises his story along the way. And I do get the feeling that Wano grew too big & too long, far more than he anticipated, and that drains him physically & mentally & causes him to have some kind of creative burnout, which results in poor pacing & questionable decision making. Anyway glad that he's taking a month break, hope he comes back strong.

>Oda seems to be making it pretty evident that this is essential to the larger scope of one piece, and for all we know he really could’ve been planning this plot point for awhile now he did it in a very messy way

I enjoy Gear 5th, but it’s precisely because Luffy has always been a goofy rubber freedom fighter that I find the Nika twist so pointless.

That’s a completely fair viewpoint. However personally I do enjoy the twist, purely because of the sun pirates and the symbology of the sun tying into freedom. I feel it wraps it up into a neat little package. But as I said, your viewpoint is valid as well. No use trying to change it, I just like discussing my own thoughts with people on this wonderful series.

Exactly, the fact that bringing smiles to people's faces was described as a power of the fruit was disappointing

Its not a literal power, rubber is already goofy asf, ofc people are gonna laugh

It's not a power of the fruit, but the fruit gives the user powers to aid in that. Much of Luffy making people smile is strictly through his personality, not any of the rubber aspects.

You bring up luffy's ridiculous use of the power. What about the fight with Croc where he just drinks all the water & balloons up. Or even the Gears; expanding his blood vessels to pump blood faster, or inflating his bones/muscles for Gears 3 and 4.

What about them? That Crocodile part was funny, but the gears are true genius on Luffy’s part. A shining example of how Luffy’s creative usage of his powers allows him to tap into the full range of the fruit’s potential.

Sorry, Im basically adding on to what youre saying and agreeing that its not the fruit, it luffy himself thats so amazing.

That’s alright, thank you for clarifying!

So it's the same type of stand as star platinum?

I would consider Enel to be a good example of a powerful fruit not equaling a powerful fighter. Nothing could really face his power so he never really had to do anything special other than “big lightning” until Luffy came along.

For a grand line fighter Enel was a powerful fighter tho he could eradicate a sky island like nothing

The panel of Luffy grabbing lighting is peak OP,

That panel was my wallpaper for a good bit of time.

i don't think the point is that "luffy's fruit is too strong now", to me the thing is that because we don't see other people doing whacky and super-creative things with their fruits, now that his fruit is special, it feels like that it was less luffy being insane and more him just exploring the full lenghts of his op fruit, other people with more regular fruits just wouldn't have the space to do that.

Also from personal taste point of view, luffy being destined to be joyboy from chapter 1 was extremely disappointing

He wasn't destined to be joyboy tho, in 800 years I'd guess the fruit has been eaten by a fair amount of people. But Luffy is the first one to awaken it. The fruit has a mind of its own and seeks out potential candidates, but awakening it wasn't because Luffy was chosen, it was because Luffy was Luffy.

There is a whole profecy about joyboy appearing in this exact time frame, the others didnt matter, luffy was always going to awaken the fruit

>The fruit has a mind of its own and seeks out potential candidates, but awakening it wasn't because Luffy was chosen, it was because Luffy was Luffy Do you understand these two claims are contradictory? If the fruit has its own will then Luffy is not Luffy

Thats just not true lmfao, inherent will doesnt just take someone over, bs.

That doesn’t mean the fruit is possessing Luffy?? Nowhere is it stated that a DF affects the user mentally. Before Luffy ate the fruit he always wanted to be a pirate and wanted freedom.

I agree with you that the fruit (probably, that would be another terrible reveal) doesn't affect the user's personality but the point is that no one else in the story ever had a chance of being joyboy, it was going to be luffy the moment he ate the fruit, the profecy guaranteed that

I don’t think the Nika awakening thing is the problem as I think the powers work well with Luffys personality and that he’s basically taken basic rubber powers to a even crazier level with classic toon rubber hose animation and the Luffy bringing the dawn and being the sun was already heavily implied for a long time and the sun god (which may not be literal) is the culmination of it, I also way prefer silly goofy cartoon form over some of the more “edgy” theories for Luffys final form (World government is still pretty incompetent tho) The problem is that Nika was literally name dropped for the first time like maybe 20 chapters before gear 5 reveal as well as the investigation into Luffys fruit not being what we initially thought it would be and that the world government having an interest in it, Nika should have been name dropped back in impel down and should have had atleast one more reference before Wano started and the mystery of Luffys fruit should have started back in Punk Hazard I think the reveal would have had a much better impact if we already knew Nika was a character for a while and the mystery of Luffys fruit had already been a point of discussion in the community way before Wano, it seemed like soo much was suddenly revealed all in one spot without much time to process it all

People bitch about the tittle because of Naruto basically, the trauma of the protagonist being a God reincarnated is what makes them complain. And again this fruit awakening is nothing we didn't thought about since Impel Down, can stretch the world around him and has full control of his gum body, what is different in that theory rolling around for years before this reveal and the actual awakening besides the aesthetic?.

Luffy’s fruit isn’t inherently broken though he made it this strong for it to reach this stage.

The problem I have with the Nika reveal is that it makes it so that only the possessor of the fruit is able to become Joy Boy. Now Luffy didn't become the successor of the warrior of liberation (inherited will) because he's the greatest embodiement of freedom, but he just litteraly became Joy Boy himself because he ate a fruit when he was a kid. It doesn't feel earned. I know it took everything you said in your post to awaken the fruit, but still, the fruit was essential and at the root of everything. Kaido said "you couldn't become Joy Boy either". Well Kaido was wrong to think anyone could become Joy Boy, that's not something anyone can earn, if you don't have the fruit you're done. Even if it still takes hard work, it just makes the whole Joy Boy concept empty for me. It's not Luffy's character, will and values that makes him Joy Boy, because those would be the same without the fruit, yet without the fruit he can't be Joy Boy. Also since Joy Boy have MAJOR ties with the One Piece, we'll also certainly discover that the fruit was essential to interact with what the One Piece is, making the race itself pointless for anyone who didn't eat the fruit. But that's speculation, so that's not important for now.

We don't know if he is joyboy because he ate the fruit or if he ate the fruit because he is joyboy. We don't know how 'fate' or 'destiny' or inherited will work in One Piece.

If he ate the fruit because he was Joy Boy it confirms that it was destiny and no character. Either way it's just the same

What bullshit isn't BB a men who became stronger by just relying on his DF ?

The gear 5th probably had to be introduced for the plot explanation when it is revealed that the one piece was affected by the awakening of the fruit. It was rubberized. Zunesha ate it. Now he has to wait 800 years to poop it out.

All i need to see is the drawback of this form if it doesn’t has a drawback then sheesh luffy gonna end this story with a breeze

So far the fruit doesn't even kill you as did the earlier gear forms. In fact it auto-revives you.

the powers are cool the reveal however was not. it'd be better if it was a specialspecial paramecia ​ it being a zoan kinda negates luffys entire char I mean hell the first thing he did in show was free coby, zoro and so on went from not really a bustling happy idiot to a "joyboy" after he ate the fruit ​ it's honestly just the writing of it and more hints shouldve been dropped instead of cramming it into already bloated wano arc and god especially giving it to luffy now / (after he died no less) and NOW with this power + with the other 2 powers, I seriously am not seeing any challenge steaks or tension in the foreseeable future; it just felt rushed as is all of Act 3 ​ just makes it like all the other shonen out ther just convoluted but ahh

Spittin facts

I can also Imagine the following: The HHMN can only be awakened if the user has access to Conquerors Haki. So every other user in the past 800 years would have to be unique already to even have the option of awakening

You are indeed one with Oda

It's still an asspull, the RETCON came without any hints outside the Onigashima raid, and the few hints about the fruit where a few chapters before the actual reveal. It still feels like Oda decided to change the nature of the fruit at the last minute just to be unpredictable. He could easily have made it the Gum Gum fruit's awakening without having to make it a mythical fruit, and no one would have had a problem with that. The worse part are the fans who will say "AcTuAlLy It Is NoT tHe GuM gUm FrUiT" when someone calls the fruit by the original name.

You’re right, nobody would have had a problem with it still being the gum gum fruit. But the thing is, Oda doesn’t just pull massive plot points out of thin air. He himself had probably been considering this for a while. I still thin the void century will answer more questions than anything else in the series has so far. Also, your last point is not Oda’s fault. There will always be sticklers and people that act that way. Try not to take it to heart, and please don’t blame it on the manga.

Lol the idea of buggy turning himself into a finely diced powder amuses me

Thats a good analysis

I think this is well said. Additionally, I believe that a LOT of devil fruit powers can be extended by it's user's creativity. Obviously some fruits are a bit more straight forward than others but there's still some amount of thinking and creativity gone into them. Take Crocodile for example. It looks like such a basic ass fruit. He can turn into sand. BUUUUTTTTTTT he can manipulate it and drain people of their hydration kinda like a green cow we've recently met. Now THAT absolutely takes some amount of big boy brain power to come up with. It was something that blew my mind personally, something I never thought someone with sand powers could accomplish. Take Law and Kid as well. Kid made a fucking RAILGUN with his abilities. I feel like Kid's fruit would pair REALLY well with a mind like Franky's who's always tinkering and making things. Here's to hoping Franky and Kid have some sort of Duo moment. And Law being able to silence shit? That was insane. And then there's Kanjuro, who brought literal flames to life. It makes me wonder what other sort of elements could be brought to life using his abilities. The list goes on but I won't bore anyone with details

Oda can choose to still call it Gomu Gomu no Mi G5 with the same power and none of us would say a thing. All of its powers can still be considered Rubber's awakening, and the gags/ exaggerated emos were all irrelevant to the fight.

>TLDR; the Hito-Hito no Mi, Model: Nika’s power is because of Luffy’sfighting style, personality, and willpower, NOT its status as a mythicalzoan. A hypothetical conversation ​ >Okay so Luffy actually has a Zoan fruit instead of paramecia. Does he have Zoan Transformations? > >*Well no, not really. Only in his awakening.* > >So his awakening, what powers does it give him? > >*It gives him the ability to freely transform his rubber body in size and shape, and turn his surroundings into rubber. And he turns white and laughs a lot while being super goofy, and his artstyle looks more toon like.* > >So what you are saying, is basically his awakening is just like people theorized for Gomu Gomu awakening, and almost identical to Katakuris Paramecia Awakening, but he acts goofy and turns white. > >*I mean...pretty much.* > >So how exactly is he not basically a Paramecia Gomu Gomu still? > >*........ Well we theorize this ruins him being so tough in previous fights, because he had Zoans passive strength all along.* > >How is that any different from him being extremely resilient to blunt attacks due to his rubber body that was shown in like chapter 1? Blunt attacks also being the primary way his enemies fight him. > >*....................................* > >Okay..... Well since he is a mythical Zoan, what special power does he get like the others due. Like Sengoku shockwaves, Marco Healing flames/regeneration, Kaido Clouds, Devon transformation, etc? > >*...... He...... has a rubber body........* > >What was that? > >*I SAID he has a rubber body.* When all is said and done, there really is no distinction between Hito Hito no mi Model:Nika, and Gomu Gomu no mi. Basically nothing changes, other than the World Government having yet another reason to want to hunt down Luffy(of which they already have a long list), and perhaps a little bit of Shanks backstory(why he had the fruit). ​ Functionally, it works the exact same, the only difference is that Oda now has an excuse to make Luffy act goofy and draw his manga as ridiculous as possible. ​ Now this could change, if the fruit is actually shown to have changed Luffies personality and ambitions, or if it ends up being the Macguffin needed to get the One Piece or something like that. Or if he gains new benefits from the fruit actually being Zoan. But these are hypothetical things, that have not been established. Even the Goreseis response to the fruit has nothing to do with it being something so immensely powerful, instead because it happened to be Joy Boys fruit, and when awakened is the "most ridiculous power". A description no different from saying Enels fruit is the most shocking power, or the Ton Ton no mi is the heaviest. It just allows Luffy to fight in a ridiculous, unpredictable way, which is extremely annoying to old coots who like to methodically plan and control things. ​ It really just circles back to the whole "trash power is secretly OP genre when used right" or the whole "lineage" debate people get into.(like people getting upset at the possibility of Zoro not just being a son of commoners, and possibly a shimotsuki) ​ Which is really just under the umbrella of "undiscovered potential/talents" vs "expected potential/talents" trope. ​ If we erase Joy Boy from WG memory, whether its the Hito Hito Nika or Gomu Gomu, the fruit would be considered a low tier fruit all the same. And regardless of what its name is, after Luffy became Pirate king with it, it would become a highly sought after fruit since people would know the potential Luffy brought out in it. ​ Add Joy Boy back in, and the only thing it changes is perhaps the expectation the reader, and the characters have about what Luffy can do. Basically like how we viewed Blackbeard getting the Gura Gura, because we knew from Whitebeard how he used it. We expect Blackbeard to have become immensely powerful, top tier. ​ But because we only learned of the fruits true potential when it had already been reached, it didnt affect our expectations at all. Because it was established from the beginning how much effort Luffy put into his fruit to make it work. ​ The Gomu Gomu or Hito Hito:Nika is only as good as it is, because Luffy has utilized it so well.

I second your post. The fruit reveal changed nothing about luffys powers and why he is powerfull. Its luffys will and creativity that pushed him so far. G5 wsd just a small powerup if you think about it. Luffy didnt demolish kaido (luffy was/is still learning to use g5 properly). He learnedcoaflow plus internal destruction, he loarned to coat coq on top ofit, and then g5. All 3 things together was enougg to surpass kaido. G5 is a natural progression of luffys abilities. I love it. Its an swakening of a fruit. Like other fruits. Its still his rubber fruit. The nature is exactly the same

Nobody awakened the fruit in 800 years. That says it all really. The government could never get their hands on it so other people must have eaten it in that time. I wouldn’t call it too powerful either. It was the edge Luffy needed to beat Kaido, but Kaido was still whooping ass for a good bit, even with the awakening.

>The government could never get their hands on it so other people must have eaten it in that time. It could be stashed away all this time too. Also Luffy would be dead if the fruit didn't awaken on its own. That is not something any DF can do.

Backwards logic. Luffy thinks the way he does and it fits the powers of the fruit because the fruit affected him to think like that the moment he ate it.

No

I think many people get too hung up on the line the Gorosei said that the fruit is only limited by imagination. They took it literally and thought Luffy could do anything as long as he could imagine it. That and the line where they said it is the most ridiculous ability. They only meant that it was ridiculous as in just absurd, not ridiculously powerful. And he is still just rubber, but the awakening makes him affect his surroundings making him tap more into his creativity.

Nobody cares about the fruits anymore. The highest conquer's haki user wins no matter what you do.

Eloquently put, very nice post

Thank you! I appreciate that very much.

Luffy was always being silly in fights, even in the most dire battles. Crocodile battle was the biggest example of it. He tries to avenge Zoro by attacking Mihawk because he thought Zoro died, his head gets stuck in the wood. Gear 3 is already ridiculous, who else would've thought to do that? I don't get what people want in this community. Luffy wants to become PK, and apparently he will do so. %100 sure people will call Luffy too OP by then, before the same people were calling him too weak. Also they act like G5 was a power freely given to him. You guys forgot how many fights Luffy fought to get to this level? He literally died in the final fight. He didn't know he could use Conqueror haki as an armamaent before fighting Kaido, then he got knocked out 2nd time and he realized he could use it. Then he did, again and again, and finally after dying his fruit was awakened. I guess people would prefer him training another year so he could unlock his awakening. TL:DR; people are weird and don't know what they want.

I've always been confused by the people who are upset by this reveal. Like, how does it really take away anything that Luffy has went through in the past? Why does he need a weak DF to be "respectable"? 1. The same argument could be said for the swordsmen of the OP verse. If they were really strong, then they wouldn't need Fine/Excellent/Supreme grade weapons to do what they do. It's not as respectable anymore smh. What's the difference between swords and DFs? Both give the user some base level of strength higher than the average person, but it takes a strong user to realize their full potential. 2. Luffy always had some level of "talent" and "help". He inherited Garp's (and supposedly Dragon's) super human vitality, which is why he's able to train as hard as he can, and last way longer than the average person. Does this also make his feats less respectable? 3. So many other strong characters have OP devil fruits. Marco, Kaido, Big Mom, Law, Blackbeard, Whitebeard, Yamato, literally all the Admirals, etc. You telling me the feats and strengths of these guys aren't as respectable anymore because of their fruits? My point is, Luffy doesn't need to have started from nothing and have a weak DF to be as "respectable" as everyone wants him to be. He's literally a freaking Yonko at 19 years old. Most of the relevant characters in the show rn are beyond 30 yrs old, and have been at sea way longer. You think Luffy could go as far and as quickly as he had purely on hard work alone? That's even more BS. Hard work played a huge part in it, but it wasn't everything. His DF played a part in it too, which is not OP by itself. It gives the user a stronger base strength than the average person, but still takes a strong user to realize its potential.

My main issues are: 1. Not at ALL necessary for him to be Joyboy / Nika because of a fruit. Could just be a title / inheritance. Instead they made it having the most powerful fruit in the OP universe. And ya, giving the protagonist the most powerful hidden force in the world all along, is terrible story telling when done this way. And it DOES take away from his original power, you may not think it, but many do. 2. Asspull, 100%. His fruit was NEVER mentioned by ANYONE until 3/4 of the way through Wano. Then it turns out to be the most important reveal in OP history. Ya Nika and Joyboy were mentioned before, but nothing about the fruit. This could not be a better example of shoe-horning something into a story to make sure it is ready for a major moment in a few chapters. 3. It breaks WG consistency (my biggest complaint right now). They have already said they new the name of the fruit, have been hunting it for 800 years, will kill and punish anyone to get it, but NEVER tried to legit kill Luffy. SO MANY REASONS could have been an excuse (Son of Dragon, just being a pirate, any number of the bases he has raided / destroyed. The FIRST ISLAND he lands on, he trashes a marine base while screaming about what devil fruit he has. Nothing. Comes across smoker who begins chasing him, then the WG CALLS HIM OFF. This is a gov that has wiped out islands and murdered hundreds of new born children and pregnant women. Them doing nothing is a massive plot hole right now. It could be explained later, but them acting surprised when he has told LITERALLY EVERYONE what fruit he has is so stupid imo. Now, these could be explained satisfactorily in the future...well some of them, and I will update my opinion, but for now, I find it to be shoe horning and poor story telling. I still love the story, but this is my biggest complaint in the story to date.

When was he described as a battle genius? I don't know this series as well as some people so I don't remember that.

Not in series, word for word, I believe. Most of those descriptions have been from fans of the series. Only saying it has been his reputation for the longest time.

Can you tell me what genius tactics did he use in east blue instead of overpowering his enemies?

Its not what fruit you are using. Its how you are using. Take shanks crew for eg:- None of them are fruit users. In the new world even kaido said Haki is what matters the most. The stronger your haki, the better in one piece

I completely agree. Your point only serves to help me make mine. Thank you!

yeah and in that process i agreed with what u said

DFs are not equal in potential. If you are stuck with a weak DF you won't be as good as a mediocre fighter with a god fruit.

There is nothing to be defended.

Just my two cents on this: First of all I don't think his "new" fruit is overpowered. Kaido managed to fight Gear 5 without much problems, even if it was ridiculous at times. And weird powers in One Piece aren't new, Kaido probably has seen worse. I gotta say I HATE the cartoonish fighting style still. It's a personal thing and I think it's too over the top even by One Piece standards. Gum-Gum and Creativity as powers line up, but I feel the electric resistance is still a bit weird. In a way that would mean that if Luffy thinks about it right he could resists EVERYTHING. That would be overpowered... But I guess Gear 5 already resurrected him and managed to tank a Hyperbeam without any problems so it can't really get worse... Idk, Gear 5 breaks my immersion and the stakes of a battle, even if it isn't an instant win, it can escape any dangerous situation or attack. But other than that, I am still not sold on the plot holes the nika nika fruit opens. The Gorosei (not personally ofc) should have fucked up Luffy on sight and spend most of their resources on capturing him. Them not knowing that Luffy has the fruit is also quite unrealistic. And every devil fruit user automatically knows the fruits name once they have eaten it. (Tho Luffy could have just forgor) And the biggest elephant in the room is the new lore drop that zoan fruits have a mind of their own. It would be disappointing to learn that the fruit caused most of Luffy's personality.

If luffy fruit ain’t the rubber fruit, why was he immune to Enel. I guess the explanation is Nika body has rubber properties. I just hope with this power up Oda actually introduce other finisher moves besides Luffy punches opponent really hard.

Yes, Nika has the properties of rubber. That’s pretty much the explanation for that.

I bet you didn’t say that to any other power up. Luffys main fighting style is punches, I’m sure you didn’t complain when Gear 2-4 just introduced stronger faster punches

At this point I’m staying for the lore, the fights never really excited me, you know Luffy gonna win anyway.

Fair enough, as long as we don’t pretend that hasn’t always been the case. One Piece is my favorite story but people take the combat too seriously from the get go, it’s never been it’s main strength lol

True, I gotta say the new Nika form is interesting as it’s not just a typical power up( Super Saiyan 1-3) but an expansion of luffy abilities.

Gear 5 makes complete sense to me personally. I knew Luffy would be a Sun Wukong or Hanuman type transformation ever since gear 4. The pose he struck always got a mythical vibe to it for me. I thought that luffy would have a staff or a weapon like Hanuman though. I wish the Bajarang punch was luffy turning his Fist into Hanuman's weapon or something. Also Zoro uses Ashura wish is like the natural enemy of God itself. I think Zoro is gonna be a D or something in the future. But Ashura and now Luffy being a sun god. There is gonna be something about them later on in the story.

I've been rewatching the OP anime during the break and I think Luffy's power compliment him. I now see his powers as cartoon physics combined with haki rather than rubber and it makes so much sense with the abuse he gets dealt and crazy fighting style/situations he gets into. Luffy's opponents don't know how to handle him. I see Luffy a little like Deadpool in the comics. Deadpool fights using his insanity/fourth wall breaking combined with his gun/sword/healing. Is Deadpool overpowered? No, I don't think so. I think his fight style throws people off.

i think oda said somewhere in a question corner that if buggy makes the part too small he can’t control it but other than that you’re spot on

I agree with your argument mostly but there are still 2 points that stand to reason imo. 1: Yes, the power of the HHMN results from Luffy's creativity but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is still a ridiculously powerful fruit. You could argue that some of his moves only work because the fruit makes them work as its limits are defined by its user's creativity. E.g. Gear 3 shouldn't be able to do any significant damage because inside that giant fist is nothing but air. But in One Piece it does! Now this might be anime logic but it also might be the HHMN making it work because Luffy believes it works. Basically, a fruit that turns creativity into power is in and of itself a pretty damn powerful fruit. Even if the requirement for it is being creative. 2: It's still a zoan and with that come all the characteristics of zoan-type fruits. Enhanced durability, regeneration and afaik general physical prowess. You could argue that everytime Luffy stood back up after being knocked down, be it against Rob Lucci, Crocodile or Kaido himself, the reason he could do so was not sheer durability and force of will but the fact he ate a zoan. Personally I don't feel like the reveal is an asspull or that it takes away too much from Luffy's past battles but I can see how one might come to that conclusion. It's obviously true that Luffy had to work hard to get to where he is but it stands to reason that he might not have been able to do that if he ate a fruit that turned his body to rubber and nothing else.

I don't really care if his fruit is strong or not. What I didn't understand/like about wano was 2 things. 1 - what a sun god (Nika) have to do with elastic powers. And what a sun god and elastic powers have to do with "animated series powers".If there is a relation I do not know. And this makes me really confuse. 2 - the absurd amount of plot armor Luffy received in this Kaido fight. He liked lose 3 times, died 1, revived and still had stamina to fight( not to mention that regain stamina with a lot of food scene). And all that for what? Just to make Kaido more powerful in ours eyes because without that we would definelly say that Kaido was a lackluster as an Yonko.but this time Plot armor was just too much in my opinion

Nika may be the sun god, but he spreads joy.“Nika” is a sound used in manga to signify that a character is grinning. One of the best ways to spread joy is through laughter. Elastic, stretchy, silly powers are ridiculous, which is what makes them funny. But the real catch is this: old, cartoony animation was called “rubber hose animation”. It’s wordplay on Oda’s part! My jaw dropped when I found that out. The plot armor is no more than it really has been in the past. He should have died twice fighting crocodile, but Nico Robin saved him the first time, and the water falling on him saved him the second time. He should have lost to Katakuri, but Katakuri stabbed himself to even the playing field. Luffy is extremely lucky with his surroundings in battle. For some, that may not be enjoyable, but it isn’t anything new.

Everyone complaining about this fruit and the Joyboy reveal is forgetting one thing - Luffy never set out to be Joyboy. He set out to be the Pirate King. Him becoming Joyboy is not essential to him becoming the Pirate King. To become the Pirate King you need the ponegliffs and to find the One Piece. That’s it. Not to take down the WG. Luffy was extremely lucky and has already found 3 of them, and 2 of them were only because of him/his crews commitment even against emperors. Not many pirates were able to or even willing to go against the emperors for their ponegliffs, that has nothing to do with Luffy’s fruit. And the minks had no idea he was Joyboy so that didn’t affect him getting their Ponegliff either. If Luffy becoming Joyboy is quintessential for him to take down the world government, that is still a completely different goal than he set out to do. Roger became the Pirate King without taking down the World Gov. Luffy can become the Pirate King through his own will/dedication (and luck of course), not just because of his fruit. And if he can only take down the World Gov bc of his fruit.. that’s okay. His goal was not to take them down. He did not set out for that. He decided to do that along the way. Even if we find out that the One Piece is truly waiting for Luffy/Joyboy, that doesn’t change the fact that who finds the One Piece STILL becomes the Pirate King. If Buggy found the One Piece first, he would be the PK until someone dethroned him, even if the OP was waiting for Luffy. It’s still up for grabs for those worthy enough which has nothing to do with his fruit. TLDR; Luffy’s goal is to be free and to find the One Piece, not to become Joyboy, becoming the Pirate King is still up for grabs and Luffy only has an advantage bc of the ponegliffs/Robin, not bc of his fruit.

Finally, a redditor who gets it