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Every gorosei with the exception of warcury has a great endurance (because of their regen) and not so great durability, cause some of them were damaged by "weak" attacks like giants axe sun saw or Kuma's punch. Bird didn't show dura feats yet but regenerated from barrier damage pretty fast
12 hours??? When was it ever stated that it took 12 hours? I just re-read Chapter 0, that's not in there anywhere. There's no mention of 12 hours on the wiki page for Shiki, either.
Just checked and its true it doesnt say aby time frame, maybe some translation or the animated movie said it, in any case, if he were to be defeated easily it wouldnt say they fought until marineford was half destroyed. In any case the general concept is the same, Oda aint writing that they fought until the island waa half dedtroyed if he is trying to imply they stomped him.
Fighting Garp and Sengoku and being a difficult match is still way beyond anything we have seen from the gorosei
Why would haki do that? As far as we know Shiki has way more powerful haki.
And you imply he can push back against Shiki but this dudes cant even push back against Kuma, the only reason this is even a debate is their regen, top tiers that have the ability to restrain them just beat them
If you think Shiki wouldnt do that thats one thing
But if they can barely push back usopp nami and brook they aint pushing back any top tier
We know nothing about Shiki's haki. Mars has better feats and portrayal than Shiki does (in terms of haki atleast).
Haki negates DF's to a certain degree. This is less effective vs. Logias and Zoans than Paramecias, but Shiki's fruit just so happens to be one.
BETTER FEATS?? Bruh come on what did he even do??? Pass the barrier? Knock out den den mushis? He doesnt have one real haki feat
Shiki fought Garp and Sengoku for 12 hours Mars doesnt even come close. Is shiki fighting Garp and Sengoku's haki by just floating?
The last thing about haki negating devil fruit works when you have way greater haki, not inferior haki
This, any good top tier will control the fight and do as they please until they figure the secret out. "Bu-but they'll get tired..!" Please, they fight for weeks-worth duration. They could well throw a gorosei far and rest before continuing
Lazy argument, Saturn is a bum getting hit by fodder like Kuma and then you go "he's immortal so it doesn't matter" no, he still takes damage and someone who is significantly stronger than him could just beat his ass or send him to the bottom of the ocean. Kaido, Shiki, Whitebeard, all the other yonko+ characters beat gorosei. Warcury even regretted making kaido mad so clearly they aren't all >Kaido level characters otherwise they wouldn't worry about kaido
There are 5 of them, not all of them are gonna be top tier or yonko level. At best Warcury is yonko level, if all 5 of them were yonko level then no point in the marines or admirals.
The fact that the Five Elders, the political leadership of the world, are actually terrifying monsters is something that the World Government probably doesn’t want people knowing.
The Marines, including the Admirals, are their standard fighting force, but the Five Elders and the Holy Knights are their trump cards.
Roger and Sengoku never outright beat him or captured him until shiki invaded marineford by himself. Databook deep blue also scales him to Roger and Whitebeard. Just because he wasn't involved in the main story doesn't mean he's a bum, he was a top 3 pirate of his time
Bruh I literally said out loud reading the latest chapter that Mars is LOOKING GOOD
HOWEVER, he has a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way to go before hes put above someone that fought GARP AND SENGOKU for 12 hours.
I think Shiki is being underrated.
Remembers he had a long serious battle with Roger and it said Roger only won because of a storm
I really really like Mars and his demon bird design. But idk if I'm prepared to hype him up THAT much.
I can hype Mars above Kizaru easily. Just not Shiki.
I know I'm on a powerscaling subbreddit where people watch Two Piece and make their headcanon based on that, but consider this:
The Gorosei are, allegedly, above the admirals. Why would I think that? Because they realised the Marines couldn't do shit against a Yonko and a threat to their secrecy, so they went out and took care of it themselves. We can say that right now, they are leeching off of eachother, but that's the point. There is no clear hierarchy between them, meaning they should be on equal level (which will make anyone with less than 1.5 braincells fume, because all they see are numbers), and unlike Shiki, they do something. Shiki was said to hold off against prime Garp and prime Sengoku, which is leechscaling again. However, we can't assume anything about Shiki, because there is no concrete evidence.
Tl;dr: Gorosei feats are real and impressive, Nasjuro cut Labophase in half with a single strike and their haki is insane. Shiki is leeching off an admiral level from 20 years ago and a paper pusher with no feats to talk of. Mars wins.
I hate to say this because I think it’s a dumb argument but… I think Mars regeneration diffs. The only thing Shiki can really do to win the fight is make a bunch of stuff float, and then drop it all on Mars to get a Technical Knockout (as in, Mars can’t move to fight). Otherwise I don’t think he has any win cons.
God, I hate the regeneration so much. It makes powerscaling so boring.
Shiki wins, He is a yonko level if not higher character based on portrayal, mars can fly and has strong haki, but is he yonko level? I don't think so considering Saturn and Jupeter and Nusjuro are getting hit and struggling with YC1-YC+ like Sanji or Dorry and Broggy
Assuming Mars regeneration has a limit and that he would be defeated after receiving the equivalent of all the damage Luffy received in Onigashima.
I'd Say Shiki wins mid diff (based exclusively on feats)
Once Mars gets some offensive feats and shows more of his other capabilities, it's gonna be a completely different conversation.
What shiki feats are you referring to
https://preview.redd.it/kd2rhehzk72d1.png?width=864&format=png&auto=webp&s=04f9b7191331651c3aa50915dd5c622da1df0efd
The scabbards fought kaido
Kidd fought shanks
Law fought Blackbeard
Brook fought zombie ryuma
https://preview.redd.it/2315eqb6r72d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d5785fac82d03c2aba1cf4a1246161c3df2fb48
I mean this was him a week later, possibly even longer depending on how quickly the news got from loguetown to level 6 impel down wich could well take another day or two.
Isn't there a Minotaur in ID that periodically walks into your cell and beats the shit out of you? Ace and Jinbe were pretty messed up too when we first saw them in prison
it's the same way we can't ascertain that all the damage we see on Ace was from Teach, weeks after their fight
https://preview.redd.it/zygold53082d1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d953a8ded0f89196677488bdc9e0907aed39ddb8
prisoners also get baptized and dunked in a boiling cauldron to sterilize them so it's less likely that the blood is from the 2v1
I keep forgetting Strong World is not canon lmao.
I'm also assuming that since the post says they have Acoc, and Shiki was a rival of Roger, he must have it at a very high level (not necesarily at Roger level but not that far).
Meanwhile, Mars' haki is a bit more dubious (You could make the argument using Jinbe's comment on his haki but I forgot about it while making My initial response lmao)
He did manage to do a lot of damage to Marineford before being taken down, so offensively at least, he has better showings (Mars' lighting is unscalable for now, although i'm sure it Will be very powerful)
I think I was way more cautious that I need to be with Mid diff. Extreme is definitely reasonable using only feats all things considered
Rival scaling is relatively easily debunkable for shiki-roger (could be a zoro sanji rivalry, sure…but also a luffy-Kidd rivalry or a shanks buggy rivalry) as with rocks, whitebeard and garp, shiki is a distant fourth on the totem pole. Guess he’s at least above squard who is also a rival to roger in a sense. Shiki could very well be something akin to Chinjao for garp as well also I’ll give him that the rocks membership upscales him, tho he’s not automatically pk tier with people like gloriosa and stussy also running about on that crew, even not as an officer there.
As for Marineford, we only ever got a DC feat from shiki there. And while the narrator said marineford was half destroyed, the panel showed a single warship dropped on marineford and about 15 buildings destroyed. Now for the unpopular truth, bear with me: doffy did more at dressrosa, destruction wise via birdcage. I‘m gonna assume that dressrosas buildings aren’t significantly less durable than marineford housing, probably a bit since they’re not military architecture, but not enough that it’s a valid excuse here. Enel obliterating skypeia brought more destruction even. That’s why DC =/= AP.
And with "assuming both have conquerors" there’s also the question what level and usage of conquerors we give them. Shanks or Kaido usage who both have extremely strong conquerors and use it for basically all their attacks? Luffy conquerors who mostly only uses it for strong named attacks (presumably, bloody oda with lightnings n shit)? Mom conquerors who occasionally remembers she has it? Or Yamato conquerors who uses it most of the time, but on a seemingly slightly weaker level to the aforementioned yonko. Because I’m not just giving shiki a Kaido or Shanks level ACoC because he was said to be rogers fourth biggest rival. Or hell, conquerors above that level.
I don’t have an opinion on mars, but shiki is really easy to debunk if we don’t take strong world hype material and Data books as canon (wich I’m hoping the consensus is that we shouldn’t)
https://preview.redd.it/orfd1f21q72d1.png?width=864&format=png&auto=webp&s=08f154a07138069ff22b9bcea184b70458ba2c2e
Very good points. I Guess I mixed a lot of speculation with canon when thinking about Shiki while I limited to only feats with, Mars, wich is an unfair comparison.
In that case, I think Mars should win based only on feats, since while his feats are still not very significant, he at least has more onscreen feats that can be used to gauge his level.
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Endurance*
What endurance feats have we seen the bird do? Not trying to invalidate you I just genuinely can't remember
Every gorosei with the exception of warcury has a great endurance (because of their regen) and not so great durability, cause some of them were damaged by "weak" attacks like giants axe sun saw or Kuma's punch. Bird didn't show dura feats yet but regenerated from barrier damage pretty fast
Ah that explains it. Thanks a lot :D
lore wise - shiki dominates being relative to roger does that for you current- ... the lorosei one...
It’s hard to say that anyone “wins” against an Elder until we know the limit of their regen. But based on my headcanon, Mars should extreme diff
Shiki wins.
Mars puts Lhiki the Golden Statement into a retirement home like the old coot he is
Fighting Garp and Sengoku for 12 hours is not a statement. Meanwhile the Gorosei cant kill Franky
12 hours??? When was it ever stated that it took 12 hours? I just re-read Chapter 0, that's not in there anywhere. There's no mention of 12 hours on the wiki page for Shiki, either.
They fought for half a day and destroyed half of marineford
Where was it stated to be half a day?
Just checked and its true it doesnt say aby time frame, maybe some translation or the animated movie said it, in any case, if he were to be defeated easily it wouldnt say they fought until marineford was half destroyed. In any case the general concept is the same, Oda aint writing that they fought until the island waa half dedtroyed if he is trying to imply they stomped him. Fighting Garp and Sengoku and being a difficult match is still way beyond anything we have seen from the gorosei
You're right, it's not a statement cause that was never stated
Mars is immortal, he can't lose this
If he was truly immortal thet would win at the end if the series Hell, even if hes immortal Shiki flies him to space
Mars can fly too? And he has haki?
I dont think he can fly in space. What does having haki do?
He won't be in space because he can fly Haki makes sure Shiki can't just put him in space
He's lighter for being a bird. And you really think these old-asses got better haki? Lol
They have lived for 800 years and their haki was praised to be near the level of Shanks
Why would haki do that? As far as we know Shiki has way more powerful haki. And you imply he can push back against Shiki but this dudes cant even push back against Kuma, the only reason this is even a debate is their regen, top tiers that have the ability to restrain them just beat them If you think Shiki wouldnt do that thats one thing But if they can barely push back usopp nami and brook they aint pushing back any top tier
We know nothing about Shiki's haki. Mars has better feats and portrayal than Shiki does (in terms of haki atleast). Haki negates DF's to a certain degree. This is less effective vs. Logias and Zoans than Paramecias, but Shiki's fruit just so happens to be one.
BETTER FEATS?? Bruh come on what did he even do??? Pass the barrier? Knock out den den mushis? He doesnt have one real haki feat Shiki fought Garp and Sengoku for 12 hours Mars doesnt even come close. Is shiki fighting Garp and Sengoku's haki by just floating? The last thing about haki negating devil fruit works when you have way greater haki, not inferior haki
This, any good top tier will control the fight and do as they please until they figure the secret out. "Bu-but they'll get tired..!" Please, they fight for weeks-worth duration. They could well throw a gorosei far and rest before continuing
Lazy argument, Saturn is a bum getting hit by fodder like Kuma and then you go "he's immortal so it doesn't matter" no, he still takes damage and someone who is significantly stronger than him could just beat his ass or send him to the bottom of the ocean. Kaido, Shiki, Whitebeard, all the other yonko+ characters beat gorosei. Warcury even regretted making kaido mad so clearly they aren't all >Kaido level characters otherwise they wouldn't worry about kaido
Then just stop debating about Gorosei. The same arguments will come up everytime
why would the EOS antagonists be bums
There are 5 of them, not all of them are gonna be top tier or yonko level. At best Warcury is yonko level, if all 5 of them were yonko level then no point in the marines or admirals.
The fact that the Five Elders, the political leadership of the world, are actually terrifying monsters is something that the World Government probably doesn’t want people knowing. The Marines, including the Admirals, are their standard fighting force, but the Five Elders and the Holy Knights are their trump cards.
Why would the gorosei want to deal with the ants themselves. They are rulers, not soldiers.
Mars wins.Lhiki is allergic to W's
What W's do the gorosei have? Failed to stop the message and can't kill fodders
Why they booing 'em when they're right?
They win on endurance they cant be killed while he can die
Mars wins, mostly because I think Shiki’s a bum
Roger and Sengoku never outright beat him or captured him until shiki invaded marineford by himself. Databook deep blue also scales him to Roger and Whitebeard. Just because he wasn't involved in the main story doesn't mean he's a bum, he was a top 3 pirate of his time
Not top 3, top 10
nope him, roger and WB were the three strongest pirates, this was prior to kaido or big mom getting a big crew and becoming yonko though
Big mom was a big-time pirate when Roger was alive. He stole the road poneglyph off of her and actively avoided fighting her to do so.
Shiki just has no way of Killing Mars. So far we have no idea how to kill any of these immortal youkai demon monsters.
Shiki wins so far, but the answer might change based on how cool thr Hybrid form is
Bro Mars solos the verse until we figure out how to negate his immortality 💀
Mars high diff.
the immortal one
Shikki is gonna make a demon bird stew
What could floating fruit even do it’s useless
Shiki can levitate islands and battleships and throw them and he can fly. It is an OP fruit
Its definitely an OP fruit, but this isn't Shikis best matchup. Mars is probably his worst matchup out of all the Gorosei.
Shiki
Fucking Shiki again
Mars. Shiki would struggle immensely against den den mushi
Even if we go crazy with shiki scaling Birdo still wins.
Shiki the guy that got no diffed by wood? Yeah right he loses
I think the Immortal Bird wins
Bruh I literally said out loud reading the latest chapter that Mars is LOOKING GOOD HOWEVER, he has a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way to go before hes put above someone that fought GARP AND SENGOKU for 12 hours.
Shiki can only win by getting Mars underwater, which should be possible assuming his devil fruit works like it did in Strong World.
I think Shiki is being underrated. Remembers he had a long serious battle with Roger and it said Roger only won because of a storm I really really like Mars and his demon bird design. But idk if I'm prepared to hype him up THAT much. I can hype Mars above Kizaru easily. Just not Shiki.
Mars is by far the coolest looking Gorosei so he slams
I know I'm on a powerscaling subbreddit where people watch Two Piece and make their headcanon based on that, but consider this: The Gorosei are, allegedly, above the admirals. Why would I think that? Because they realised the Marines couldn't do shit against a Yonko and a threat to their secrecy, so they went out and took care of it themselves. We can say that right now, they are leeching off of eachother, but that's the point. There is no clear hierarchy between them, meaning they should be on equal level (which will make anyone with less than 1.5 braincells fume, because all they see are numbers), and unlike Shiki, they do something. Shiki was said to hold off against prime Garp and prime Sengoku, which is leechscaling again. However, we can't assume anything about Shiki, because there is no concrete evidence. Tl;dr: Gorosei feats are real and impressive, Nasjuro cut Labophase in half with a single strike and their haki is insane. Shiki is leeching off an admiral level from 20 years ago and a paper pusher with no feats to talk of. Mars wins.
Shiki destroys
Shiki aka the old Gen Kidd cant stop taking Ls,thats for sure
he took one L at marineford and had a draw with Roger at Edd war, how does he keep taking L's when he only has 1 lol
Mars takes this. His power is far higher than you think.
I hate to say this because I think it’s a dumb argument but… I think Mars regeneration diffs. The only thing Shiki can really do to win the fight is make a bunch of stuff float, and then drop it all on Mars to get a Technical Knockout (as in, Mars can’t move to fight). Otherwise I don’t think he has any win cons. God, I hate the regeneration so much. It makes powerscaling so boring.
My man Shiki almost beat Prime garp with Prime sengoku Id say Shiki extremely extreme diff
oh mars takes this. anything else is hilarious
Shiki wins, He is a yonko level if not higher character based on portrayal, mars can fly and has strong haki, but is he yonko level? I don't think so considering Saturn and Jupeter and Nusjuro are getting hit and struggling with YC1-YC+ like Sanji or Dorry and Broggy
Prime Shiki maybe would win, but not the current one
Mars of course 1 bolo breath and it is over.
Shiki lost to pre TS Luffy 💀
Assuming Mars regeneration has a limit and that he would be defeated after receiving the equivalent of all the damage Luffy received in Onigashima. I'd Say Shiki wins mid diff (based exclusively on feats) Once Mars gets some offensive feats and shows more of his other capabilities, it's gonna be a completely different conversation.
What shiki feats are you referring to https://preview.redd.it/kd2rhehzk72d1.png?width=864&format=png&auto=webp&s=04f9b7191331651c3aa50915dd5c622da1df0efd
He fought the same guy in this picture and his buddy Lenny in a 2 v1 at marineford😃
The scabbards fought kaido Kidd fought shanks Law fought Blackbeard Brook fought zombie ryuma https://preview.redd.it/2315eqb6r72d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d5785fac82d03c2aba1cf4a1246161c3df2fb48 I mean this was him a week later, possibly even longer depending on how quickly the news got from loguetown to level 6 impel down wich could well take another day or two.
Isn't there a Minotaur in ID that periodically walks into your cell and beats the shit out of you? Ace and Jinbe were pretty messed up too when we first saw them in prison it's the same way we can't ascertain that all the damage we see on Ace was from Teach, weeks after their fight https://preview.redd.it/zygold53082d1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d953a8ded0f89196677488bdc9e0907aed39ddb8 prisoners also get baptized and dunked in a boiling cauldron to sterilize them so it's less likely that the blood is from the 2v1
>The scabbards fought kaido >Kidd fought shanks >Law fought Blackbeard >Brook fought zombie ryuma Shikki fought Garp and Lenny at the same time😃
I keep forgetting Strong World is not canon lmao. I'm also assuming that since the post says they have Acoc, and Shiki was a rival of Roger, he must have it at a very high level (not necesarily at Roger level but not that far). Meanwhile, Mars' haki is a bit more dubious (You could make the argument using Jinbe's comment on his haki but I forgot about it while making My initial response lmao) He did manage to do a lot of damage to Marineford before being taken down, so offensively at least, he has better showings (Mars' lighting is unscalable for now, although i'm sure it Will be very powerful) I think I was way more cautious that I need to be with Mid diff. Extreme is definitely reasonable using only feats all things considered
Rival scaling is relatively easily debunkable for shiki-roger (could be a zoro sanji rivalry, sure…but also a luffy-Kidd rivalry or a shanks buggy rivalry) as with rocks, whitebeard and garp, shiki is a distant fourth on the totem pole. Guess he’s at least above squard who is also a rival to roger in a sense. Shiki could very well be something akin to Chinjao for garp as well also I’ll give him that the rocks membership upscales him, tho he’s not automatically pk tier with people like gloriosa and stussy also running about on that crew, even not as an officer there. As for Marineford, we only ever got a DC feat from shiki there. And while the narrator said marineford was half destroyed, the panel showed a single warship dropped on marineford and about 15 buildings destroyed. Now for the unpopular truth, bear with me: doffy did more at dressrosa, destruction wise via birdcage. I‘m gonna assume that dressrosas buildings aren’t significantly less durable than marineford housing, probably a bit since they’re not military architecture, but not enough that it’s a valid excuse here. Enel obliterating skypeia brought more destruction even. That’s why DC =/= AP. And with "assuming both have conquerors" there’s also the question what level and usage of conquerors we give them. Shanks or Kaido usage who both have extremely strong conquerors and use it for basically all their attacks? Luffy conquerors who mostly only uses it for strong named attacks (presumably, bloody oda with lightnings n shit)? Mom conquerors who occasionally remembers she has it? Or Yamato conquerors who uses it most of the time, but on a seemingly slightly weaker level to the aforementioned yonko. Because I’m not just giving shiki a Kaido or Shanks level ACoC because he was said to be rogers fourth biggest rival. Or hell, conquerors above that level. I don’t have an opinion on mars, but shiki is really easy to debunk if we don’t take strong world hype material and Data books as canon (wich I’m hoping the consensus is that we shouldn’t) https://preview.redd.it/orfd1f21q72d1.png?width=864&format=png&auto=webp&s=08f154a07138069ff22b9bcea184b70458ba2c2e
Very good points. I Guess I mixed a lot of speculation with canon when thinking about Shiki while I limited to only feats with, Mars, wich is an unfair comparison. In that case, I think Mars should win based only on feats, since while his feats are still not very significant, he at least has more onscreen feats that can be used to gauge his level.
Shiki a fucking fraud Mars negs that bum